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| Castile's death garnered widespread attention -- and sparked nationwide protests over the use of force by police -- after his girlfriend broadcast the shooting's aftermath on Facebook Live.... "I didn't want to shoot Mr. Castile," Yanez testified."That wasn't my intention. I thought I was going to die." Yanez's lawyers alleged Castile had been smoking marijuana the day of the shooting, which they said affected his judgment. Castile was bleeding heavily in the Facebook video but managed to say he wasn't reaching for his gun, which he had a permit to carry. His girlfriend said Castile was reaching for his ID in his back pocket when he was shot. Castile's fully loaded gun was found in his shorts pocket, Ramsey County prosecutors said. Reynolds issued a statement Friday, saying Castile was pulled over because he had "a wide nose," like a robbery suspect who was being sought. "He did nothing but comply with Officer Yanez's instructions to get his driver's license. He was seat belted and doing as he was told, when he was shot by Officer Yanez who fired seven shots into the vehicle where my .... daughter and I also sat. It is a sad state of affairs when this type of criminal conduct is condoned simply because Yanez is a policeman. God help America." |
T-Bone, sorry to hear that story man, but I can't say I'm surprised. I'm not black but I'm a minority, and I know the feeling...
If I get pulled over with or without my kids/wife in the car, I might be a little nervous, but just because i don't want a ticket, NOT because I'd fear for my life if this cop panics after he smells weed.
Getting shot wouldn't even enter my thoughts.
That is white privilege and it's fuckin sad.
So, while I meant people, it kind of goes both ways. I get the fraternal brotherhood aspect of it, but you'd think the "good apples" would want the "bad apples" to pay for all the problems they have created.
So while you say it isn't all cops you then go on to say it really IS all cops. So is this a little window dressing or what? And what are the "good apples" in Seattle, San Diego, Battle Creek, Michigan and Montpelier Vermont supposed to do about the "bad apples" in Florida or Minneapolis? They certainly get the blowback. And in what other profession is such all encompassing self policing (pun intended) expected?
The other officer in the video was a PROSECUTION witness and among the things he said was he didn't see any smoke or smell weed. We can't "assume" that what the officer who shot Castile said is true, especially since other statements he made were also disputed by his supervisor, for example.
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So, while I meant people, it kind of goes both ways. I get the fraternal brotherhood aspect of it, but you'd think the "good apples" would want the "bad apples" to pay for all the problems they have created.
So while you say it isn't all cops you then go on to say it really IS all cops. So is this a little window dressing or what? And what are the "good apples" in Seattle, San Diego, Battle Creek, Michigan and Montpelier Vermont supposed to do about the "bad apples" in Florida or Minneapolis? They certainly get the blowback. And in what other profession is such all encompassing self policing (pun intended) expected?
You're a stockbroker. There's a subsection of stockbrokers going out there and swindling people out of their money under dubious circumstances. You for them, or do you want them to be held accountable?
And yeah, stop seeing what you want to say, get the fuck off my back. At no point did I say it was "all cops". You need me to tag everything with a superlative warning?
Let me break it down for you: You'd think people in a certain profession, if they were so disturbed by how some others perceived their profession, what want those whose misconduct perpetuates these misconceptions to be held accountable.
There's no "ALL", literally ANYWHERE in ANYTHING I've posted. But, njm, while you aren't madcow, you're in the same vein -- never nuance, and we all know where you have stood on this for multiple years now at this point.
And just to reiterate, once again: Nothing in my post said "all cops". Must be the same mental gymnastics you use to reflexively vindicate police of wrongdoing in every questionable situation.
...but not only can cops shoot with impunity because they are "scared", but the mere suggestion that most cops should support the accountability of those who make lethal mistakes or abuse power means you hate "all cops"...
...the second statement which is often made by the same guys who say "Muslim communities need to speak out against terror!"
Give me a break.
As for hyperbole, well...
As for hyperbole, well...
A lot of things went on in the aftermath of this video.
Without saying anything myself, I'm extremely curious as to thoughts of some members of BBI pertaining to this.
Link - ( New Window )
A lot of things went on in the aftermath of this video.
Without saying anything myself, I'm extremely curious as to thoughts of some members of BBI pertaining to this. Link - ( New Window )
Okay - my thoughts. Just having watched the video and read the article, I know nothing else about the incident. I have a few thoughts about what I just saw.
The officer's behavior was terrible. The response was very, very poorly handled. Absolutely no reason this escalated except for his poor behavior. He clearly was abusing authority. Also - his use of pain to try to coerce a response from the teenager was uncalled for and wrong. The second teenager being arrested when she was standing nearby recording on her phone was a travesty and abuse of power.
To read that the command center was withholding information related to the case is an indictment to me of the sort of systemic problems we have. People don't trust the police, as noted by the teenager saying that police cameras aren't real. These attitudes are strengthened by the actions of the command center.
I think if anyone in my family had been involved we would have been much more compliant with the officer. I believe that would have helped the situation. I can understand if some want to find fault with the behavior of the arrested. Having said that, it doesn't change the fact that this officer is abusing his authority in the neighborhood, and the much, much greater crime in this case is the officer's abuse of authority, not the resistance to the officer or the reaction to the incident.
I think the disciplinary action (10 days suspension) was definitely not enough to ensure these people get the services our tax dollars demand. I would be looking at a minimum 6 months suspension without pay, revocation of his license, and a requirement that he complete a certain amount of training and counseling before he is ever allowed to carry a badge again. I'm understanding that everyone has a bad day, and perhaps this officer just had the worst day of his life. For this reason I don't think that a lifetime ban from law enforcement is necessary, but they should not be back on the force until everything is done to make sure he never abuses his authority again.
That's my take.
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Licensed gun owner who had done everything legal to the point of stating he had a concealed carry permit and a gun, was shot to death and yet the NRA has not said one fucking word since their initial tepid statement the day after the shooting.
Does anyone really wonder why that is?
I don't wonder, I know exactly what it is. It's not the reason you think, though.
It's the culture of cop worship on the right in general and the NRA in particular, where those heroes in blue can never do anything wrong and must be slavishly supported at all times.
It's also the fact that Castile does not remotely fit their membership demographic.
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As more people carry this will be more common. It's mind boggling when you think about it. The odds of accidental death are much greater than using a gun to save your life."
Actually heard a statistic today that law enforcement personnel have a higher rate of accidental shootings than CC civilians. Reason being is that LE interact with their weapons on a more frequent basis. Makes sense.
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In comment 13507288 montanagiant said:
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Licensed gun owner who had done everything legal to the point of stating he had a concealed carry permit and a gun, was shot to death and yet the NRA has not said one fucking word since their initial tepid statement the day after the shooting.
Does anyone really wonder why that is?
I don't wonder, I know exactly what it is. It's not the reason you think, though.
It's the culture of cop worship on the right in general and the NRA in particular, where those heroes in blue can never do anything wrong and must be slavishly supported at all times.
It's also the fact that Castile does not remotely fit their membership demographic.
Actually he does. The NRA supports the second amendment for everyone regardless of race, color, creed or sexual orientation. Actually minorities are active in the NRA. Did you know that 75% of stand your ground cases in Florida involved and clear minorities? And no, stand your ground was NEVER a part of the Martin case. If the defence tried to use that, he would be in prison today.
the 'panic':
an officer assessed a situation where he thought a gun was being drawn. He pulled his own weapon and defended himself. you cannot tell from that video/audio that the assessment was panic. you hear his voice escalate from calm 'ok, don't reach for it', to mediocre 'don't reach for it', to screaming 'don't reach for it'. All evidence shows Castile continued to reach for something. The officer makes a decision that there is a danger. he believes a weapon is being drawn. He takes action. He immediately asks his partner to remove the child. He immediately radios for a medic. He continues to treat the scene as a hostile environment, which is appropriate because he doesn't know if (still alive) Castile continues to be a threat, or whether the other adult in the car is a threat. Adrenalin is pumping, but he maintains composure, and follows his training. He made a bad decision, but that doesn't constitute panic. he treated Castile, and the other adult, as a threat until proven not to be, which, once the decision is made that there is a threat, is the proper course of action. In the meanwhile, an ambulance arrives, other police officers arrive. there's already another officer on the scene. his blood is whistling in his ears,adrenaline yet you hear him repeat over and over that he told Castile not to reach. He maintained composure and followed his training. I fully understand that his decision making process was hasty. he had a second or two to decide if he was about to die, and came to a decision. that doesn't constitute panic. Panic is Bill Paxton in Aliens.
the 'panic':
an officer assessed a situation where he thought a gun was being drawn. He pulled his own weapon and defended himself. you cannot tell from that video/audio that the assessment was panic. you hear his voice escalate from calm 'ok, don't reach for it', to mediocre 'don't reach for it', to screaming 'don't reach for it'. All evidence shows Castile continued to reach for something. The officer makes a decision that there is a danger. he believes a weapon is being drawn. He takes action. He immediately asks his partner to remove the child. He immediately radios for a medic. He continues to treat the scene as a hostile environment, which is appropriate because he doesn't know if (still alive) Castile continues to be a threat, or whether the other adult in the car is a threat. Adrenalin is pumping, but he maintains composure, and follows his training. He made a bad decision, but that doesn't constitute panic. he treated Castile, and the other adult, as a threat until proven not to be, which, once the decision is made that there is a threat, is the proper course of action. In the meanwhile, an ambulance arrives, other police officers arrive. there's already another officer on the scene. his blood is whistling in his ears,adrenaline yet you hear him repeat over and over that he told Castile not to reach. He maintained composure and followed his training. I fully understand that his decision making process was hasty. he had a second or two to decide if he was about to die, and came to a decision. that doesn't constitute panic. Panic is Bill Paxton in Aliens.
I never said racism played a part in what happened to me. Nor have I said racism always plays a part in police harassment/brutality. My story was strictly a story of a time when I was unnecessarily harassed by police officers. That's all. Sorry if I confused you.
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In comment 13507316 Greg from LI said:
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In comment 13507288 montanagiant said:
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Licensed gun owner who had done everything legal to the point of stating he had a concealed carry permit and a gun, was shot to death and yet the NRA has not said one fucking word since their initial tepid statement the day after the shooting.
Does anyone really wonder why that is?
I don't wonder, I know exactly what it is. It's not the reason you think, though.
It's the culture of cop worship on the right in general and the NRA in particular, where those heroes in blue can never do anything wrong and must be slavishly supported at all times.
It's also the fact that Castile does not remotely fit their membership demographic.
Actually he does. The NRA supports the second amendment for everyone regardless of race, color, creed or sexual orientation. Actually minorities are active in the NRA. Did you know that 75% of stand your ground cases in Florida involved and clear minorities? And no, stand your ground was NEVER a part of the Martin case. If the defence tried to use that, he would be in prison today.
CTC with all due respect, what does Stand your Ground have to do with the NRA and their demographics?
Anyone can have a mission statement (they are done basically for marketing purposes and if there is one thing it's that the NRA is political lobbying group if anything), but it goes without saying that the vast majority of their demo is 180 degrees from Castile and the silence by them after claiming they would definitely have more to say about this shooting over a year ago is quite telling
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In comment 13508570 montanagiant said:
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In comment 13507316 Greg from LI said:
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In comment 13507288 montanagiant said:
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Licensed gun owner who had done everything legal to the point of stating he had a concealed carry permit and a gun, was shot to death and yet the NRA has not said one fucking word since their initial tepid statement the day after the shooting.
Does anyone really wonder why that is?
I don't wonder, I know exactly what it is. It's not the reason you think, though.
It's the culture of cop worship on the right in general and the NRA in particular, where those heroes in blue can never do anything wrong and must be slavishly supported at all times.
It's also the fact that Castile does not remotely fit their membership demographic.
Actually he does. The NRA supports the second amendment for everyone regardless of race, color, creed or sexual orientation. Actually minorities are active in the NRA. Did you know that 75% of stand your ground cases in Florida involved and clear minorities? And no, stand your ground was NEVER a part of the Martin case. If the defence tried to use that, he would be in prison today.
CTC with all due respect, what does Stand your Ground have to do with the NRA and their demographics?
Anyone can have a mission statement (they are done basically for marketing purposes and if there is one thing it's that the NRA is political lobbying group if anything), but it goes without saying that the vast majority of their demo is 180 degrees from Castile and the silence by them after claiming they would definitely have more to say about this shooting over a year ago is quite telling
I don't agree with you which is fine. to each his own. Stand your ground has nothing to do with this incident. It was in response to Ron Johnson 30 who said there would be more accidental shootings with more CC's. that just is't the case.
This was a tragic incident that was going to be decided by the courts and it was.
Why that jury decided how they did? I have no idea. Then again, I didn't sit through the trial nor be in the jury room for deliberations.
As a NRA member I am glad they stayed above the political folly and let it be worked out in the courts.
The generic statement they come out with was perfect. In my opinion.
You want them to condemn LE and the court system in the US.
That ain't happening.
2. The Minneapolis Gay Pride parade organizers have banned police from this year's parade because of the acquittal. The background of this is that the Chief of Police is a lesbian who was the grand marshal of the parade a few years ago. I've linked a editorial from the Minneapolis Star-Tribune criticizing this decision.
Link - ( New Window )
As for the panic. everyone keeps telling me I'm wrong. So maybe I am wrong. but I've elucidated why I don't think there was panic. No one, so far, has pointed out why they think he panicked. just 'you're wrong, he panicked, it's obvious'. He came to a very quick decision. point out where he panicked. anyone. don't just tell me I'm wrong. explain your side of the story. what exactly do you see that makes you believe he panicked? It is obvious from the video, and especially from the audio, that he saw a threat. It's obvious from all the evidence that Castile was reaching for something after just saying he had a gun. there is nothing at all on the video that to me shows panic, just a guy reacting to what he perceived as a threat. the perception is the entire basis of the issue. you cannot see what Castile was doing. you can only hear the officer saying don't reach, don't reach, DON'T REACH. everything other than that is interpretation. the officers actions after the shooting are consistent with a guy with adrenaline pumping, but following protocol. So if you, or anyone, sees panic, treat me like a child and walk me through it step by step.
If that doesn't signal absurd panic, then what the hell is your definition of panicked?
The man was screaming hysterically. I don't see how you're watching the same videos as the rest of us.
Any defense of him following protocol is equally absurd as your claim that he didn't panic.
As for the panic. everyone keeps telling me I'm wrong. So maybe I am wrong. but I've elucidated why I don't think there was panic. No one, so far, has pointed out why they think he panicked. just 'you're wrong, he panicked, it's obvious'. He came to a very quick decision. point out where he panicked. anyone. don't just tell me I'm wrong. explain your side of the story. what exactly do you see that makes you believe he panicked? It is obvious from the video, and especially from the audio, that he saw a threat. It's obvious from all the evidence that Castile was reaching for something after just saying he had a gun. there is nothing at all on the video that to me shows panic, just a guy reacting to what he perceived as a threat. the perception is the entire basis of the issue. you cannot see what Castile was doing. you can only hear the officer saying don't reach, don't reach, DON'T REACH. everything other than that is interpretation. the officers actions after the shooting are consistent with a guy with adrenaline pumping, but following protocol. So if you, or anyone, sees panic, treat me like a child and walk me through it step by step.
All good.
Unfortunately I won't be able to participate much at all today because I'm in another office helping with an office move. When I'm available... and if this thread is still going, I'll respond.
But, if I can give a word of advice: don't depend on the rear view mirror when you back up :)
the 'panic':
an officer assessed a situation where he thought a gun was being drawn. He pulled his own weapon and defended himself. you cannot tell from that video/audio that the assessment was panic. you hear his voice escalate from calm 'ok, don't reach for it', to mediocre 'don't reach for it', to screaming 'don't reach for it'. All evidence shows Castile continued to reach for something. The officer makes a decision that there is a danger. he believes a weapon is being drawn. He takes action. He immediately asks his partner to remove the child. He immediately radios for a medic. He continues to treat the scene as a hostile environment, which is appropriate because he doesn't know if (still alive) Castile continues to be a threat, or whether the other adult in the car is a threat. Adrenalin is pumping, but he maintains composure, and follows his training. He made a bad decision, but that doesn't constitute panic. he treated Castile, and the other adult, as a threat until proven not to be, which, once the decision is made that there is a threat, is the proper course of action. In the meanwhile, an ambulance arrives, other police officers arrive. there's already another officer on the scene. his blood is whistling in his ears,adrenaline yet you hear him repeat over and over that he told Castile not to reach. He maintained composure and followed his training. I fully understand that his decision making process was hasty. he had a second or two to decide if he was about to die, and came to a decision. that doesn't constitute panic. Panic is Bill Paxton in Aliens.
We'll agree to disagree on this one since no matter what I or anyone else states, you've already made up your mind about what this officer's perceived state of mind, which you go into great details for someone, who has never been in a life or death situation. But I guess, you just know this police officer well enough to make your detailed description of what he was going through and his decision making process.
However, I'll tell you that you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth with your posts. You've stated on multiple occasions above that the police officer followed through procedure and was in control the entire time, yet you've also stated in multiple posts (below) that he was in shock after the shooting since only those with balls of steel or Clint Eastwood would stay so calm. So which was it? Was he Clint Eastwood or was he in shock?
fkap : 6/21/2017 11:16 am : link : reply
Maybe,just maybe, being the first time killing another human feet away and watching him die could induce a state of shock?
Not everyone is as cool as Clint Eastwood when shooting someone.
fkap : 6/21/2017 11:36 am : link : reply
I've never shot anyone. maybe you have. maybe from close point blank range. If you have, and were able to continue thinking rationally, you have balls made of steel, especially on your first kill. not everyone has balls of steel. Of course, your mission in the military was to kill, so it's a little bit different.
At this point, arguing with you is like arguing with someone, whose sole purpose in being in the discussion is to win the argument instead of actually holding a discussion the way you've flipped flopped.
your response is just of the same old 'you're wrong' with no explanation variety.
I explained ad nauseum why I think he made his decision, why he reacted as he did, why I don't think he panicked. I never said he panicked. You were the one alleging he was acting inappropriately based on the video. He was in an elevated state of shock/adrenaline pumping, and still performed his duties.
I will admit though, when I first wrote those comments, I had only watched the first abbreviated version, showing the first minute of the video. Watching the extended version only reinforces my view.
If you want to explain your side, in a rational fashion, I'm happy to listen. But so far, all I hear is "you're wrong". that is not a discussion. If it is so obvious, point it out to me. Or just huff and say it's no use.
What exactly are you seeing that says anything that this officer was composed?
I'll be blunt and state that you are speaking out of your ass on your ridiculous description of the officer's mental state. Totally out of your ass as you have no damn clue what panic and shock even looks like if you think he was composed. Seriously, no damn clue.
Link - ( New Window )
I NEVER said the officer was calm after the shooting. but he was composed enough to get the child out of the situation. he was composed enough to keep both Castile and another adult (who at the time still potentially posed a threat) under surveilance. He called for medical attention. He kept it together, and then let adrenaline/shock kick in. Good (?) for you if you can shoot a man at close range and then not have chemistry/emotions kick in. But he kept it together until backup arrived, and then naturally reacted. I don't see anything that counters that. I don't see anything that says he broke under duress. The entire thing hinges on him making a decision, which I've already said, is suspect. he made a decision/evaluation that his life was in danger. his decision was wrong, but I can see why it was made - because a guy said I have a gun and then reached for something. that isn't panic. it's making a decision. Nothing in that video shows why it was the wrong decision.
If you just want to say "you're wrong" with no additional commentary, then go for it.
This is the kind of guy who'd be calmly eating a sandwich at a picnic and would suddenly flip the entire table over when he spots a yellow jacket.
But, if I can give a word of advice: don't depend on the rear view mirror when you back up :)
I know and vice versa!
I actually told a cop buddy of mine this story years ago and (after asking me if I knew the cops who harassed me were because he was PISSED and was going to either confront or report them) said that had I stayed put and called the cops the guy would've been in trouble for illegally straddling the lanes. Don't know how true that is... just telling ya what he told me.
And shooting int0 a car like he did with a 4 yr old in the back is anything but following protocal
It absolutely sucks that sometimes cops can be assholes and sometimes you can't do a damn thing about it. been there, done that.
But that doesn't mean they're automatically derelict of duty when something goes wrong.
I've also had some good treatments with cops.
they're humans. can be bad. can be good. can be worn down by the job, or can remember the noble reason they joined. There should be no assumptions, just like any other interaction with humans.
But, I'll try not to comment on the case any more.
(other than whispering, a guy who might be ready to shoot you, might also be willing to use subterfuge to do so) but I didn't say that out loud.
It absolutely sucks that sometimes cops can be assholes and sometimes you can't do a damn thing about it. been there, done that.
But that doesn't mean they're automatically derelict of duty when something goes wrong.
I've also had some good treatments with cops.
they're humans. can be bad. can be good. can be worn down by the job, or can remember the noble reason they joined. There should be no assumptions, just like any other interaction with humans.
I
You see... I disagree with that last line. An interaction with a cop is not like one with any human being nor do I think it should be expected to be. They should always be held to a higher standard. There's a reason why they're allowed to be armed. Because of that reason, although this is said with the understanding that they are human too, they're not allowed to let their 'bad days' be used as an excuse for why they messed up in a particular situation.
Sorry but we'll have to respectfully disagree on that too.
2. The Minneapolis Gay Pride parade organizers have banned police from this year's parade because of the acquittal. The background of this is that the Chief of Police is a lesbian who was the grand marshal of the parade a few years ago. I've linked a editorial from the Minneapolis Star-Tribune criticizing this decision. Link - ( New Window )
I dont understand how organizers of a parade can decide where police go...
But, I'll try not to comment on the case any more.
(other than whispering, a guy who might be ready to shoot you, might also be willing to use subterfuge to do so) but I didn't say that out loud.
With his girl and kid in the car?
At some point common sense has to kick in. If I'm a cop who just pulled someone over... and he admits that he's armed... and has his family in the car with him... the thought 'This guy might kill me.', would've never entered my mind and HAD he shot me he just would've got me because under the circumstances in that video, I have a hard time thinking he would take a shot at me.
It's ok... I'm on lunch.., that's the only reason I'm involved.
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1. There was a segment on this on PBS's News Hour last night with 2 analysts with somewhat different views. They disagreed on most, but not all things, but the discussion was civil and reasonable. Not sure it's on their website, but it's worthwhile if it's there.
2. The Minneapolis Gay Pride parade organizers have banned police from this year's parade because of the acquittal. The background of this is that the Chief of Police is a lesbian who was the grand marshal of the parade a few years ago. I've linked a editorial from the Minneapolis Star-Tribune criticizing this decision. Link - ( New Window )
I dont understand how organizers of a parade can decide where police go...
Banned from marching. Patrolling up in the air. Read the op ed.
I NEVER said the officer was calm after the shooting. but he was composed enough to get the child out of the situation. he was composed enough to keep both Castile and another adult (who at the time still potentially posed a threat) under surveilance. He called for medical attention. He kept it together, and then let adrenaline/shock kick in. Good (?) for you if you can shoot a man at close range and then not have chemistry/emotions kick in. But he kept it together until backup arrived, and then naturally reacted. I don't see anything that counters that. I don't see anything that says he broke under duress. The entire thing hinges on him making a decision, which I've already said, is suspect. he made a decision/evaluation that his life was in danger. his decision was wrong, but I can see why it was made - because a guy said I have a gun and then reached for something. that isn't panic. it's making a decision. Nothing in that video shows why it was the wrong decision.
If you just want to say "you're wrong" with no additional commentary, then go for it.
Hey, fkap. My apology if I have come off like an asshole in the past few posts to you. We can most definitely disagree on this without snide remarks or anger, so if I showed you either, I apologize.
While not an excuse on my end, this incident really bothers me, as I place extremely high standards on the police (as I also do to the military), and incidents like this burns me to the core for those reasons.
You have a great day.
wife an kid in the car mean almost nothing. you can't assume a guy isn't going to pull a gun because his wife/girlfriend is in the car or that a child is in the car. a guy who is willing to kill a cop isn't going to be stopped by a gal and child being in the car. I get the idea, but it's bad to assume it holds true.
The woman didn't even notice the child was gone for 2 minutes. her first thought was to get this down on video. and then she asked where her kid was. WTF is up with that? how is it not her first thought to protect her baby? So, excuse me if I believe cops should be suspicious no matter what.
I fully recognize I come off a little too strong sometimes.
but there's a keyboard, so I must type!!!!
contentious, I may be, but I don't want to offend.
The officer panicked, killed Castile, and then freaked out after the fact.
contentious, I may be, but I don't want to offend.
Sir, we are good. We're both mature and strong willed individuals...:) And thank you for your kind words.
Have a great weekend!
I'm no cop, but I am certain that shoving your weapon into the open window of a vehicle and firing wildly is not how he was trained.