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| Castile's death garnered widespread attention -- and sparked nationwide protests over the use of force by police -- after his girlfriend broadcast the shooting's aftermath on Facebook Live.... "I didn't want to shoot Mr. Castile," Yanez testified."That wasn't my intention. I thought I was going to die." Yanez's lawyers alleged Castile had been smoking marijuana the day of the shooting, which they said affected his judgment. Castile was bleeding heavily in the Facebook video but managed to say he wasn't reaching for his gun, which he had a permit to carry. His girlfriend said Castile was reaching for his ID in his back pocket when he was shot. Castile's fully loaded gun was found in his shorts pocket, Ramsey County prosecutors said. Reynolds issued a statement Friday, saying Castile was pulled over because he had "a wide nose," like a robbery suspect who was being sought. "He did nothing but comply with Officer Yanez's instructions to get his driver's license. He was seat belted and doing as he was told, when he was shot by Officer Yanez who fired seven shots into the vehicle where my .... daughter and I also sat. It is a sad state of affairs when this type of criminal conduct is condoned simply because Yanez is a policeman. God help America." |
The method of lethal force isn't that important to the discussion, whether it's Eric Garner or Freddie Gray - the point is that the course of action chosen by the officers in those situations was either excessive or abusive.
As of now, we can only quantify the people that ultimately ended up dead in their encounters with the police. I'd suspect that if we also had knowledge of how often police officers engaged in an excessive use of force which didn't result in a death it would probably be even more troubling.
lethal for an individual in normal average physical condition. The only fault to be found in that encounter was the cops not recognizing and/or responding to his his infirmities as he laid there on the sidewalk.
The more relevant issue to be examined in this encounter is what was the government interest in confronting Garner at that point? The street team that contacted Garner had been temporarily reassigned to enforcing the illegal sales of loose cigarettes on the streets of NYC. Not a heinous crime by any definition yet one that caused NYPD brass to respond. This street team was basically taken from their normal duties of stopping violent crimes and reassigned to enforce the collection of taxes on cigarette sales by legit sales outlets. It was a bullshit, politically driven assignment.
Garner had several prior offenses for the unlawful sale of "loosies" and was uncooperative. He should not have died but the city politicians hands were filthy in this case.
And yet, he'd still be alive today if he wasn't put into a choke hold for no reason.
lethal for an individual in normal average physical condition.
The POINT is that the 'force' shouldn't have been used on him in the first place.
Oh... that's the ONLY fault? First off, that's a pretty big 'fault' seeing as how they caused him to be in the condition he was in... again, for no reason. Secondly, that wasn't the 'only' fault... they had no reason to bother him in the first place as he was doing nothing illegal. Matter of fact, he actually had just broken up a fight before the police arrived. So the only reason why any attention was given to this man was because he'd done a good deed a few minutes before the police decided to show up... assume that since he'd been arrested for selling 'loosies' that he must be still doing it.
So that makes it ok they decided to harass and ultimately kill this man?
So what? That means police are given a free pass to harass someone because of a prior conviction(s)? Too many times a person's past transgressions are allowed to give acceptance to a person being harassed or killed, even when that person isn't committing any unlawful acts at the time. It happens time and time again in these cases. I know it may be hard for some to believe, but sometimes... people learn from their past mistakes and try their best to not make them again. If I recall from the video (and I may be mistaken), I believe Garner repeatedly stated he doesn't sell loosies anymore because he has a wife and kid at home. But evidently there are some who believe what they see in the movies are real and think that just because they saw Crockett and Tubbs shake down a guy who broke the law in his past that it means that they're always breaking the law again. That's not always the case and is fantasy.
He should not have died... period. He hadn't done anything.
Out of all the killings like this, this one pissed me off the most because the way they surrounded him was like a pack of jackals cornering an elephant and it was sickening to see... only because Garner hadn't done anything wrong (and, in fact, had actually done something good just a few minutes earlier). To somehow try and place blame on Garner is mind-boggling but par for the course in these instances. You can hear Garner (along with bystanders who had no reason to lie for him) continuously say he didn't do anything wrong and yet these clowns were determined to arrest and charge him with SOMETHING simply because they were bored and had nothing better to do.
That definitely deserves an extrajudicial death penalty.
They can kill anyone. That's what irritates me about the way these cases are discussed - the threat exists for anyone.
Link - ( New Window )
Also, this comes up every time these high profile shootings/deaths are brought up, yes, proportionately African Americans are killed at a higher rate than whites by LE, but the numbers of whites killed by police is much higher and much less publicized, my point is I don't believe it's always racial, I think it's as much that some people are bad fits for the job they're in AND some victims don't comply, that combination is explosive and sometimes turns tragic.
This encounter never happens until someone in authority, not the guys on the street, decides that "tax collection" is the mission of the day.
Also, this comes up every time these high profile shootings/deaths are brought up, yes, proportionately African Americans are killed at a higher rate than whites by LE, but the numbers of whites killed by police is much higher and much less publicized, my point is I don't believe it's always racial, I think it's as much that some people are bad fits for the job they're in AND some victims don't comply, that combination is explosive and sometimes turns tragic.
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In 2015, The Washington Post launched a real-time database to track fatal police shootings, and the project continues this year. As of Sunday, 1,502 people have been shot and killed by on-duty police officers since Jan. 1, 2015. Of them, 732 were white, and 381 were black (and 382 were of another or unknown race).
Those are my thoughts as well.
Also, this comes up every time these high profile shootings/deaths are brought up, yes, proportionately African Americans are killed at a higher rate than whites by LE, but the numbers of whites killed by police is much higher and much less publicized, my point is I don't believe it's always racial, I think it's as much that some people are bad fits for the job they're in AND some victims don't comply, that combination is explosive and sometimes turns tragic.
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In 2015, The Washington Post launched a real-time database to track fatal police shootings, and the project continues this year. As of Sunday, 1,502 people have been shot and killed by on-duty police officers since Jan. 1, 2015. Of them, 732 were white, and 381 were black (and 382 were of another or unknown race).
Media can give a shit about white people killed by cops. racism sells views and ads
This encounter never happens until someone in authority, not the guys on the street, decides that "tax collection" is the mission of the day.
Are you a cop? Honest question as I'm wondering if you actually KNOW this or are projecting your own thoughts?
Again... the issues is that they had no reason to 'encounter' Garner. I agree that he should've been more cooperative (although I wonder if he'd cooperated if they'd just found some other reason to arrest him, which happens quite often) but it's real easy to say that when you're not dealing with the harassment that some of us are continuously put through. You can hear the frustration in his voice. I also disagree that 'he appears to have been walking away' because he was surrounded with his back against a wall.
I also disagree with your last paragraph because these kind of encounters happen whether it's appointed by government officials or because, as pj said, you just have a cop that's unable to handle the stressful environment that usually that cop has put himself in. You trying to say it's the city's government's fault that Garner is not alive today appears to be an attempt to redirect who was really at fault... which was the police officers who decided to harass a man who hadn't done anything illegal simply because they could and knew they'd get away with it (which they did).
In this particular situation, the defense suggesting that the victim being high (questionable assertion) having anything to do with the shooting is just disingenuous and stinks of demonizing the victim to the jury. And our justice system is far from being fair, as I'm sure the jury gave this police officer a great bit of benefit of doubt and in part bought into the idea that since the victim may have been high, he had some part in his death. While vast majority of police officers are great people, many of them have no business being in that profession for many reasons. And if your number one priority is to go home alive to your family each day (as understandable as that may be for any human being) instead of ensuring that you serve and protect your fellow citizens at the cost of your own safety, you get incidents like this even from good police officers.
We can talk about even the incident in Cleveland with the kid, who was shot and killed for having a BB gun by those two police officers, who came in like a bat out of hell to the scene and shot the kid within five seconds of arriving as another instance of justice not being fair. And there are many more instances like them.
In the end, while these incidents are rare, the enormity of each incident due to who are involved (those entrusted to serve and protect and should be held to the highest standards due to their incredible authority) and the fatal outcome of the victims makes each case all that much more important. So I see why each incident like this out of hundreds of thousands of great interactions that police officers have with the public are scrutinized so much.
Also, this comes up every time these high profile shootings/deaths are brought up, yes, proportionately African Americans are killed at a higher rate than whites by LE, but the numbers of whites killed by police is much higher and much less publicized, my point is I don't believe it's always racial, I think it's as much that some people are bad fits for the job they're in AND some victims don't comply, that combination is explosive and sometimes turns tragic.
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In 2015, The Washington Post launched a real-time database to track fatal police shootings, and the project continues this year. As of Sunday, 1,502 people have been shot and killed by on-duty police officers since Jan. 1, 2015. Of them, 732 were white, and 381 were black (and 382 were of another or unknown race).
pj - the only question I have is does that poll mean ALL people killed by cops or those that appear to be bad kills? I think there's a very big difference there. As you said, of course there's more white people who get killed by cops because there's more white people in this country. But how many of those killed (white, black and other) were killed while being unarmed or killed under questionable circumstances? Whites may still have greater numbers, but I'd be interested to see if those numbers are a bit closer or farther apart.
Are you a cop? Honest question as I'm wondering if you actually KNOW this or are projecting your own thoughts?
If you're a cop, you have to tell us
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is the kind of job where from what I can tell you really cannot simulate the stressful and unique situations the LE officer will face until he/she faces it and then if they react poorly it's possibly cost someone their life. Don't know the solution, but my guess is this is 75% of the reason for these incidents.
Also, this comes up every time these high profile shootings/deaths are brought up, yes, proportionately African Americans are killed at a higher rate than whites by LE, but the numbers of whites killed by police is much higher and much less publicized, my point is I don't believe it's always racial, I think it's as much that some people are bad fits for the job they're in AND some victims don't comply, that combination is explosive and sometimes turns tragic.
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In 2015, The Washington Post launched a real-time database to track fatal police shootings, and the project continues this year. As of Sunday, 1,502 people have been shot and killed by on-duty police officers since Jan. 1, 2015. Of them, 732 were white, and 381 were black (and 382 were of another or unknown race).
pj - the only question I have is does that poll mean ALL people killed by cops or those that appear to be bad kills? I think there's a very big difference there. As you said, of course there's more white people who get killed by cops because there's more white people in this country. But how many of those killed (white, black and other) were killed while being unarmed or killed under questionable circumstances? Whites may still have greater numbers, but I'd be interested to see if those numbers are a bit closer or farther apart.
that's all people. whether the killing was justified or not is what the debate is really about.
The article is linked below, slightly dated - it's from a year ago. Sometimes you see a video or read about a case (like Castille) and you say, that police officer is likely going to jail and then you're surprised when he doesn't (at least I am), but my point was while probably tragic, I don't know that particular case was more a racial issue than it was an incompetent police officer issue.
I also felt like Lavoy Finicum (Oregon wildlife refuge standoff) was killed unnecessarily but the reaction was the same you'd see from someone like Alton Sterling from the masses. He could have avoided it if he complied with LE instructions.
Link - ( New Window )
I am currently assigned to a US Marshal Fugitive task force. I'm not sure how much more I will do once this temporary assignment is concluded.
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the system codifies the notion that it's a-ok for a cop to kill a black person for basically any reason and in any number of ways.
They can kill anyone. That's what irritates me about the way these cases are discussed - the threat exists for anyone. Link - ( New Window )
Sure, they can. I think that there is a fair amount of evidence that not all ethnicities get the same treatment or benefit of the doubt by police officers that white folks do.
Nobody is immune. Bottom line, you don't comply with a police officer, you are playing roulette.
CNN: Michigan teen's family files federal lawsuit over fatal traffic-stop shooting - ( New Window )
I am currently assigned to a US Marshal Fugitive task force.
And you're not out there cracking down on "loosies"?
I am currently assigned to a US Marshal Fugitive task force. I'm not sure how much more I will do once this temporary assignment is concluded.
Gotcha. Thanks!
Police brutality is wrong no matter who it is against. The race of the officers involved and/or the race of the 'victims' of this harassment really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.
Police brutality is wrong no matter who it is against. The race of the officers involved and/or the race of the 'victims' of this harassment really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.
My sentiments too. It's tiresome. If there was a game of bingo for these type of threads you'd have squares for "white people get killed too", "what about black and black crime?", and of course "why does everything have to be about race?!"
I'm just saying that the statistics don't back up that police officers are killing members of a certain race with prejudice, but rather it's a certain type of behavior (no matter the ethnicity of the person doing it), that often results, often needlessly, in these deaths.
Finally, if you ever encounter an officer in an instance like this, if you choose non compliance or physical resist, you are increasing your odds of becoming a part of the statistic.
so yeah, race was mentioned, but only because I feel like race is not always or maybe even usually the cause for these incidents.
But carry on with your self righteous bingo game.
Also, there is a time within living memory where racial segregation was enforced quite violently by police and other mechanisms of the state. Jim Crow laws, etc. were not that long ago.
The relationship between that community and law enforcement is tense for a lot of reasons, and that tension certainly contributes to these issues.
Police need the cooperation of the communities they serve to do their job effectively. Good officers earn cooperation through respect and service. Bad officers fuck it up for everyone.
We need the good officers to stop rationalizing egregious violence against the public by the bad officers.
Also, there is a time within living memory where racial segregation was enforced quite violently by police and other mechanisms of the state. Jim Crow laws, etc. were not that long ago.
The relationship between that community and law enforcement is tense for a lot of reasons, and that tension certainly contributes to these issues.
Police need the cooperation of the communities they serve to do their job effectively. Good officers earn cooperation through respect and service. Bad officers fuck it up for everyone.
We need the good officers to stop rationalizing egregious violence against the public by the bad officers.
"They said that Deven's focus on these videos was recent, sudden, out of the ordinary, and may have influenced Deven in this traffic stop," Lloyd wrote in the report.
Society is buying into the false narratives that are being spewed through the media, to dangerous proportions.
The media would have you believe that Michael Brown was gunned down in cold blood for doing nothing but being an innocent child in the wrong place at the wrong time and coming into contact with a big bad police officer who was out on the prowl looking for somebody to kill.
We know now that all of that was completely false, yet an entire movement built it's foundation over it, and the more impressionable people that buy into that, are now pushing lines and boundaries in encounters with law enforcement, like that kid in the traffic stop, that end with deadly consequences.
It's behavior driven, not race driven.
Nobody is immune. Bottom line, you don't comply with a police officer, you are playing roulette.
CNN: Michigan teen's family files federal lawsuit over fatal traffic-stop shooting - ( New Window )
White kid case: kid was resisting arrest, the taser failed to subdue him, kid got free and got on top of officer and was hitting him in the face. Video cuts out, but shortly thereafter cop shoots kid.
Black guy case: sitting in car with woman and baby, reaches for ID when cop asks him to get ID. Cop shoots him.
Those are not the same thing.
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of an unarmed, white teen being shot and killed during a routine traffic stop for which he had flashed his high beams at a police car, then proceeded with non compliance, and ultimately led to him being shot and killed when he supposedly "attacked" the officer.
Nobody is immune. Bottom line, you don't comply with a police officer, you are playing roulette.
CNN: Michigan teen's family files federal lawsuit over fatal traffic-stop shooting - ( New Window )
White kid case: kid was resisting arrest, the taser failed to subdue him, kid got free and got on top of officer and was hitting him in the face. Video cuts out, but shortly thereafter cop shoots kid.
Black guy case: sitting in car with woman and baby, reaches for ID when cop asks him to get ID. Cop shoots him.
Those are not the same thing.
I was not comparing them directly.
so yeah, race was mentioned, but only because I feel like race is not always or maybe even usually the cause for these incidents.
But carry on with your self righteous bingo game.
PJ, problem with your math is that it is a very superficial number that doesn't touch on differences in population across ethnicities. What your numbers leave out says more to me than the actual numbers you shared.
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is the only reason I mentioned race is because a poster had to say "cases like this are why we need #blacklivesmatter."
so yeah, race was mentioned, but only because I feel like race is not always or maybe even usually the cause for these incidents.
But carry on with your self righteous bingo game.
PJ, problem with your math is that it is a very superficial number that doesn't touch on differences in population across ethnicities. What your numbers leave out says more to me than the actual numbers you shared.
It's all in the article that I linked from the Washington Post, my post said absolutely that African Americans are killed by LE at a higher proportional percentage, by that I meant per population, but my opinion is exactly what I stated, the incidents are not always racially biased, but more a LE training issue as I mentioned.
what's possibly and maybe even probably racially biased is the number of times non-whites are pulled over, and maybe that's the root of the issue, since more encounters probably equals more opportunity for incidents, but that's not the same thing and not why blacklivesmatter should or should not exist.
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In comment 13504729 Britt in VA said:
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of an unarmed, white teen being shot and killed during a routine traffic stop for which he had flashed his high beams at a police car, then proceeded with non compliance, and ultimately led to him being shot and killed when he supposedly "attacked" the officer.
Nobody is immune. Bottom line, you don't comply with a police officer, you are playing roulette.
CNN: Michigan teen's family files federal lawsuit over fatal traffic-stop shooting - ( New Window )
White kid case: kid was resisting arrest, the taser failed to subdue him, kid got free and got on top of officer and was hitting him in the face. Video cuts out, but shortly thereafter cop shoots kid.
Black guy case: sitting in car with woman and baby, reaches for ID when cop asks him to get ID. Cop shoots him.
Those are not the same thing.
I was not comparing them directly.
Then what is your point?
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In comment 13504924 Deej said:
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In comment 13504729 Britt in VA said:
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of an unarmed, white teen being shot and killed during a routine traffic stop for which he had flashed his high beams at a police car, then proceeded with non compliance, and ultimately led to him being shot and killed when he supposedly "attacked" the officer.
Nobody is immune. Bottom line, you don't comply with a police officer, you are playing roulette.
CNN: Michigan teen's family files federal lawsuit over fatal traffic-stop shooting - ( New Window )
White kid case: kid was resisting arrest, the taser failed to subdue him, kid got free and got on top of officer and was hitting him in the face. Video cuts out, but shortly thereafter cop shoots kid.
Black guy case: sitting in car with woman and baby, reaches for ID when cop asks him to get ID. Cop shoots him.
Those are not the same thing.
I was not comparing them directly.
Then what is your point?
It was in response to a tangent of the thread and not the original threadstart.
But then pj says this with regards to the article he posted:
A post you had no problem co-signing on at 10:37 am.
So which is it? Either they do or they don't?
But let's put that aside for a moment because you also said:
and later...
And yet Castile WAS complying with the officer's orders.
The guy who got shot WITH HIS HANDS UP AND LAYING ON HIS BACK ON THE GROUND (per the officers orders I might add) who was trying to help an autistic child WAS complying with the officer's orders.
Just like the Mike Brown incident is always brought up as a way of saying 'Maybe if the guys complied they wouldn't be getting killed!', there are plenty of other cases where that narrative doesn't fit.
Trevor Noah does a good job of expressing what many people... particularly black, and other minority, people... are feeling in my link below. How?
How does a black person NOT get shot by LE in America? - ( New Window )
I just don't believe, perhaps I just don't want to believe, that the situation would have been any different had a person of another race been in the car.
Police officers are human, not robots. They react to situations differently. Textbook goes out the window when human emotion takes over. Fear, anxiety, anger, whatever...
Not every police officer is going to react the same in every situation. There is such a complex sequence of thoughts, emotions, and events that none of us can imagine what it's like to be in either position on that tape. Who knows how we would react. Another officer might have arrived and it would never have gone down like that.
I just don't believe police are killing people because they are black. I don't believe it is that the situation is that simplistic.
I just don't believe, perhaps I just don't want to believe, that the situation would have been any different had a person of another race been in the car.
Police officers are human, not robots. They react to situations differently. Textbook goes out the window when human emotion takes over. Fear, anxiety, anger, whatever...
Not every police officer is going to react the same in every situation. There is such a complex sequence of thoughts, emotions, and events that none of us can imagine what it's like to be in either position on that tape. Who knows how we would react. Another officer might have arrived and it would never have gone down like that.
I just don't believe police are killing people because they are black. I don't believe it is that the situation is that simplistic.
While admirable that it's so hard for you to believe, yes... it does happen. I'm not trying to say it's the case in all... or even most cases... but it does happen. Racism is alive... well... and seemingly thriving in this day and age unfortunately.
Perhaps it you should've been on that jury because evidently there are about 12 people (and I'm sure many, many more) who believe that the officer WAS justified in shooting Castile (let alone into a car with another person and child in it) and believe Castile did something wrong... or else that officer would've at least not gotten away with NO charges sticking don't ya think?
You want to believe that the situation would've been different had someone from a different race been in that car? Go right ahead. It's probably best you have such... innocent... thoughts. But that's not the reality that I'm living in. Philando Castile could just as easily be me, my father or brother... or my 2 year old son in about 20 years. And that's a scary ass thought. It's a scary thought that some people can say 'Textbook goes out the window when human emotion takes over.', and that be an excuse for why a trained professional can get away with not only manslaughter but also firing a gun in the vicinity of a child. I'd bet you wouldn't be so forgiving had that been your wife and child in that car now would you?
"White Man's World" - Jason Isbell - ( New Window )
It wasn't any different for Daniel Shaver. Or Richard Ferretti. Or Francisco Cerna. Etc., etc.
Police violence is something that can happen to anyone.
Where there any African American men or women on the jury?
I'm having a hard time figuring out why this is a racism issue, when there men and women of all ethnicity involved in many of these situations.
As far as the Textbook going out the window when emotions get involved comment, how can emotion not take over when you're faced with a perceived life or death situation no matter how trained or experienced you are? I'm not saying it because I think it's right, I'm saying it because it's a matter of fact. It's easy for you and me to comb through the evidence and video over years and months, and Monday Morning QB the situation in a vacuum void of any real consequence in a discussion on a football message board... But the officer involved didn't have that luxury. He had about 5 seconds to make what he felt was a life and death decision in real time with real consequences.
He chose wrong, but it was reactionary, not intentional or premeditated. Perhaps the jury thought something similar.
It's undoubtedly a major factor in why more black people come into contact with cops in the first place, but once an encounter begins the risk of being shot to death is there for practically anyone of any race.
In this case, the robbery suspect was described as being black, and a black person was being pulled over. the cop was on edge. maybe racism played a part, maybe it didn't. automatically assuming skin color was the reason he's dead borders on racism, if not over the line racist.
absolutely racism is alive and well, but not every black person who dies is a victim of it.
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You want to believe that the situation would've been different had someone from a different race been in that car?
It wasn't any different for Daniel Shaver. Or Richard Ferretti. Or Francisco Cerna. Etc., etc.
Police violence is something that can happen to anyone.
And it does... as has been said, over... and over... and over again.
That said, I still don't believe THAT incident would've been the same had Castile been a white man... but now that I think about it, who cares? Not interested in getting in to hypotheticals.
Where there any African American men or women on the jury?
I'm having a hard time figuring out why this is a racism issue, when there men and women of all ethnicity involved in many of these situations.
As far as the Textbook going out the window when emotions get involved comment, how can emotion not take over when you're faced with a perceived life or death situation no matter how trained or experienced you are? I'm not saying it because I think it's right, I'm saying it because it's a matter of fact. It's easy for you and me to comb through the evidence and video over years and months, and Monday Morning QB the situation in a vacuum void of any real consequence in a discussion on a football message board... But the officer involved didn't have that luxury. He had about 5 seconds to make what he felt was a life and death decision in real time with real consequences.
He chose wrong, but it was reactionary, not intentional or premeditated. Perhaps the jury thought something similar.
Whether it was race related or not, point is that it shouldn't have happened.
Regarding your statements about the 'textbook going out the window', so then the manslaughter charge should've stuck right? Or at the very least the child endangerment charge (or whatever the other two charges were), correct?
As some poster, like RC02XX, have said, that's an occupation THEY chose to do. Sorry but I'm not accepting that 'it was just a reaction' for an excuse why my father, brother or friend is dead. You accept the job, you accept the risk, you accept that 'reactions' like that are unacceptable.
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but a factor in many
It's undoubtedly a major factor in why more black people come into contact with cops in the first place, but once an encounter begins the risk of being shot to death is there for practically anyone of any race.
The same risk of being shot?