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| Castile's death garnered widespread attention -- and sparked nationwide protests over the use of force by police -- after his girlfriend broadcast the shooting's aftermath on Facebook Live.... "I didn't want to shoot Mr. Castile," Yanez testified."That wasn't my intention. I thought I was going to die." Yanez's lawyers alleged Castile had been smoking marijuana the day of the shooting, which they said affected his judgment. Castile was bleeding heavily in the Facebook video but managed to say he wasn't reaching for his gun, which he had a permit to carry. His girlfriend said Castile was reaching for his ID in his back pocket when he was shot. Castile's fully loaded gun was found in his shorts pocket, Ramsey County prosecutors said. Reynolds issued a statement Friday, saying Castile was pulled over because he had "a wide nose," like a robbery suspect who was being sought. "He did nothing but comply with Officer Yanez's instructions to get his driver's license. He was seat belted and doing as he was told, when he was shot by Officer Yanez who fired seven shots into the vehicle where my .... daughter and I also sat. It is a sad state of affairs when this type of criminal conduct is condoned simply because Yanez is a policeman. God help America." |
Untrained private citizens, on the other hand, are expected to act an a calm, rational and composed manner, to follow all the instructions to the letter and to do the exact right thing in any encounter with law enforcement, or anything that happens is their fault and the police are blameless.
Someone pulls a gun on on you, points it at your face and starts screaming at you from a couple feet away. What would you do? In those few seconds before they're going to pull the trigger, would you be calm and collected enough to process what's going on, rationally assess the situation and take the correct action? In this situation, what would that action be? Freeze? Put your hands on the steering wheel? Ask for further instructions?
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In comment 13502756 Chris in Philly said:
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In comment 13502605 rebel yell said:
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opinion because I didn't sit through the trial. I only saw the video. However, I do encourage those who criticize and convict without having sat through the proceedings to try a day or two in LE, or immerse yourself in a shoot/don't shoot training simulator.
Because their job is hard or stressful is not an excuse...
Did I use the word excuse or try to absolve the officer? No, I didn't. I urged those who criticize to try a shoot/don't shoot simulator. If you've never been in imminent danger, felt you adrenaline flow, or been shot at....you're clueless. I have and I know the feeling.
I have and I have been in my share of firefights as well and know how difficult those situations are. However, as a law abiding and tax paying citizen, I feel that it is our place to criticize when we believe that there is injustice. This police officer may be a great guy or not, and it doesn't matter. All that matter is that his actions led to another man's death needlessly. And because he's an officer of the law, he is given a pass. There is something so wrong with that.
Excellent post
As you said, there are some schools where teaching is much more challenging than others. In those schools those teachers are VERY prone to thinking about how challenging that environment is. They can easily find blame for student ineptitude everywhere but there own classroom.
But here's the thing. What is their duty? Their duty is to be an example every single day to the kids. Their duty is to believe in their students and inspire them, in spite of their circumstances. Their duty is to challenge those students to rise up.
Does every teacher every day rise to this challenge? Are there not moments of weakness when the teacher doesn't do right by the student? Perhaps. But if those moments persist then the teacher needs to get out. Perhaps out of that school to a different school, or perhaps out of teaching.
A cop's duty is to be brave, to enter into scary, dangerous situations, and still be prepared to act to defend innocent lives. Just as the teacher in a challenging school should not succumb to their doubts about a child's ability, neither should the officer allow their fear to drive them to behaviors that endanger innocent lives. If the officer finds himself afraid because he is called to stop a vehicle that *might* have someone dangerous inside, or because the owner announces they have a gun, they should get out of that field immediately, because they are only creating a more dangerous situation.
Basically we have a case where a black guy is pulled over, and the officer was so keyed up and fearful that he shot him. The system we have in place simply says - "Bummer. It's how it goes for black folk. Cops could get shot by one, ya know, so they have to be prepared when they pull one over."
Obviously I'm using this rhetoric to make a point. The officer who is in control of their fear is in control of their behavior, and in control of the situation. It's their duty to conquer their fears and act accordingly.
Does anyone really wonder why that is?
Anyway, I want to make something clear. As I said, my son is a law enforcement officer. All of his friends are cops.
One of my best friends in high school is a cop. I am pro-cop 100%. I honor him and all officers for their willingness to do a job bravely. We need to do more to show appreciation and respect for officers.
But our system of justice is broken if there are virtually no consequences following a situation like this. Why? These kinds of situations only reinforce a notion in many, many people that they are unsafe around cops. That cops can't be trusted. That cops protect their own and that cops don't care about people of color. This notion increases the danger for many, many more cops. If you love cops, you want to stop that. You want to find a way to increase the level of support in ALL communities for law enforcement. This will help prevent situations like the ones you describe in Club Blu, where entire communities are unwilling to talk to the police, where police have become the enemy, the guy in the black hat, the one you root against.
It's a problem and it needs a resolution.
Untrained private citizens, on the other hand, are expected to act an a calm, rational and composed manner, to follow all the instructions to the letter and to do the exact right thing in any encounter with law enforcement, or anything that happens is their fault and the police are blameless.
Someone pulls a gun on on you, points it at your face and starts screaming at you from a couple feet away. What would you do? In those few seconds before they're going to pull the trigger, would you be calm and collected enough to process what's going on, rationally assess the situation and take the correct action? In this situation, what would that action be? Freeze? Put your hands on the steering wheel? Ask for further instructions?
Great point
Does anyone really wonder why that is?
I don't wonder, I know exactly what it is. It's not the reason you think, though.
It's the culture of cop worship on the right in general and the NRA in particular, where those heroes in blue can never do anything wrong and must be slavishly supported at all times.
To me, it's the same with police. You expect them to approach a car in an area where people are getting shot left and right on a daily basis, where they are getting dirty looks and feeling uneasy at all times rolling through these communities where they are unwelcome, where the community refuses to give them any information to help them solve any crimes, where they are treated as a constant enemy, where children are raised to distrust them... the same as in a community where they are welcomed into the schools, at community gatherings, in local businesses and neighborhoods where the biggest thing that happens is somebody commits some sort of white collar crime? It's unreasonable and unrealistic, because the threat of death and other bad shit going down is much higher. You can't fight human emotion. If you feel in danger, no amount of training can suppress that instinct.
If this cop had followed procedure and treated this traffic stop like a high risk stop then PC would never have been shot. The casual manner in which he approached a car that he believed might have a robbery suspect is what led to all this.
The killing of Castile was a tragedy and the cop in question was absolutely guilty of a crime. Don't misconstrue what I'm saying as meaning anything to the contrary. I'm just saying that as a practical matter, if you carry, you have to go above, beyond, and then maybe a few miles further towards not getting shot by one of these jumpy assholes.
I understand the problems that come from criticizing LEO after the fact. I worry about it all the time. But we have to do a better job of holding LEO accountable when these things happen or we only widen the gap between them and the communities they serve.
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Licensed gun owner who had done everything legal to the point of stating he had a concealed carry permit and a gun, was shot to death and yet the NRA has not said one fucking word since their initial tepid statement the day after the shooting.
Does anyone really wonder why that is?
I don't wonder, I know exactly what it is. It's not the reason you think, though.
It's the culture of cop worship on the right in general and the NRA in particular, where those heroes in blue can never do anything wrong and must be slavishly supported at all times.
This
Not only that though...the fact that there were two other occupants in the car makes his reaction that much more infuriating (if that's even possible at this point). To shoot that many rounds in point blank range into a small confined space seems an overkill, and based on the dash cam video, he definitely panicked the way he seemed to wildly shoot into the car at an awkward angle.
He freaked out and panicked by mere gesturing of the victim even after the victim informed him that he was carrying legally. The victim never even actually pull his firearm out! The officer specified that he was in fear for his life, and if you're going to fear for your life at mere gesturing of a man, who is legally carrying a firearm, you have escalated the situation from 0 to 60 without any intermediate steps. That's not a man, who should have ever been allowed to be a cop. And while I don't believe that the officer was a racist, you also can't deny that the victims race didn't somehow play a subconscious role in such a panicked reaction by this poorly selected officer.
Ask yourself, if you think that the officer would have had the same panicked reaction if an older white woman would have acted in the exact manner as the victim (informing the officer of her firearm and trying to pull out her wallet to show the officer her conceal carry license). If your answer is yes, then it's another proof that the officer should never have been given a badge and gun. If your answer is no, then the victim's race definitely played a role in the officer's panicked reaction. Either way, the officer is at fault in this tragic incident.
Untrained private citizens, on the other hand, are expected to act an a calm, rational and composed manner, to follow all the instructions to the letter and to do the exact right thing in any encounter with law enforcement, or anything that happens is their fault and the police are blameless.
Someone pulls a gun on on you, points it at your face and starts screaming at you from a couple feet away. What would you do? In those few seconds before they're going to pull the trigger, would you be calm and collected enough to process what's going on, rationally assess the situation and take the correct action? In this situation, what would that action be? Freeze? Put your hands on the steering wheel? Ask for further instructions?
++1000000
That's the thing that gets me as well. The officer walks up like he has no care in the world for what he says is a potential robbery suspect. The interaction seems pretty calm for what can be a potentially dangerous situation. Then almost immediately after the victim tells the officer that he has a firearm that he can legally carry, the situation goes to "I was fearing for my life" by this officer. Seriously, I am so dumbfounded by the whole situation and the verdict and people saying how the officer is not at fault for the man's death.
The officer created the situation and then ended it in the most awful and wrong manner that a situation like this could have ended. I'm surprised that the girlfriend and the child were not also shot accidentally in the officer's panicked reaction.
And then the panicked officer was so in "shock" that he waited four full minutes before helping his fellow officer render first aid to the victim. Once again, here is a man, who had ABSOLUTELY no business being a police officer.
The killing of Castile was a tragedy and the cop in question was absolutely guilty of a crime. Don't misconstrue what I'm saying as meaning anything to the contrary. I'm just saying that as a practical matter, if you carry, you have to go above, beyond, and then maybe a few miles further towards not getting shot by one of these jumpy assholes.
In many ways I agree with this, especially if you're a person of color. And we know that the victim has been pulled over more than 40 times. He may have dealt with other officers, who weren't nearly as panicky when he informed them of his firearm...who knows.
Unfortunately and fortunately (I guess), my NC conceal carry license was not valid in MD, so I never carried my handgun on me (not even to the range as I locked it up in the trunk) and thus never had to deal with situation like what you're talking about.
What's the thought process there?
What's the thought process there?
Listening to the little girl's comments is so heartbreaking and maddening. Ugh.
David in LA - All due respect to Britt (who I've always been cool with) but I agree 100% with your 12:35 am post and was going to say the same thing when I got back to my laptop this morning (I didn't feel like typing a response on my phone). You're introducing something into this conversation, Britt, that really doesn't apply... and to be honest, is not completely true in my opinion. Like David said, this incident happened in a well to do area and if the officer was THAT concerned about his safety he should've handled the situation the way he was supposedly trained to do. This kind of stuff doesn't only happen in rough neighborhoods though. There was a story just a few months ago of a guy who has been working on his luxury car (I think it was a Lexus) and a woman who happened to be passing by thought he was stealing the car and the police stopped him... told him to get out of the car with his hands up (which is what he did) and they immediately tackled him like he was trying to run from them. After they found out what was really going on, all he got as a 'my bad'. There's that 'inconvenience' I was talking about earlier in this thread.
Also, this is also happening to other black men who happened to be retired officers. You're seeing stories come out now where a black man who used to be an officer (retired) was brutalized by his own and they experienced first hand what we civilians go through every day. So it's not just thugs out on the street who are going through this but well-off men as well. Remember that scene in the movie 'Crash' where Terrance Howard, who was playing a movie producer of some kind, was pulled over and his wife harassed by a police officer (who was having a bad day dealing with his father's medial issues... played by Matt Dillon) and felt all over by the cop? That really happens. That's real life. Racism and police brutality can, has and will impact any man or woman regardless of race, financial status or celebrity.
You just seem intent of placing full blame on the victims of this and not believing that sometimes... it's not the victims fault.
I just want to state for the record, I wouldn't consider myself 'anti-cop'. I respect them and the job they have to do. I don't see one and automatically assume that given the chance they'd want to do me harm just because of who I am and who they are. That said, I've had my own bad experiences with some of them... so I know what it feels like. I've experienced the fear of seeing them approach my car with their hand already on their holster and not knowing what's going to happen next. It's a feeling of powerlessness that is pretty scary to experience... particularly when you know that you can try to do EVERYTHING correct... and still get shot for it... and even worse, the shooter won't receive any punishment for it... and these are guys who are supposed to PROTECT you. You can try to imagine what that feels like, but unless/until you actually go through it... you can't understand how frustrating that can be. It's almost like having a 'master' over you where if that officer tells you to get out and bark like a dog... if you want to live, you best get out and get to barking... whether you did anything illegal or not doesn't matter.
Untrained private citizens, on the other hand, are expected to act an a calm, rational and composed manner, to follow all the instructions to the letter and to do the exact right thing in any encounter with law enforcement, or anything that happens is their fault and the police are blameless.
Someone pulls a gun on on you, points it at your face and starts screaming at you from a couple feet away. What would you do? In those few seconds before they're going to pull the trigger, would you be calm and collected enough to process what's going on, rationally assess the situation and take the correct action? In this situation, what would that action be? Freeze? Put your hands on the steering wheel? Ask for further instructions?
Last week, I saw someone post this picture on Facebook that echoes the same sentiment
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Is that people give the police, who are supposed to be trained professionals, a very wide latitude to screw up, make mistakes, act out of panic or fear, etc.
Untrained private citizens, on the other hand, are expected to act an a calm, rational and composed manner, to follow all the instructions to the letter and to do the exact right thing in any encounter with law enforcement, or anything that happens is their fault and the police are blameless.
Someone pulls a gun on on you, points it at your face and starts screaming at you from a couple feet away. What would you do? In those few seconds before they're going to pull the trigger, would you be calm and collected enough to process what's going on, rationally assess the situation and take the correct action? In this situation, what would that action be? Freeze? Put your hands on the steering wheel? Ask for further instructions?
Last week, I saw someone post this picture on Facebook that echoes the same sentiment
I posted that very picture in the latest Kaepernick thread just last week.
As you said, there are some schools where teaching is much more challenging than others. In those schools those teachers are VERY prone to thinking about how challenging that environment is. They can easily find blame for student ineptitude everywhere but there own classroom.
But here's the thing. What is their duty? Their duty is to be an example every single day to the kids. Their duty is to believe in their students and inspire them, in spite of their circumstances. Their duty is to challenge those students to rise up.
Does every teacher every day rise to this challenge? Are there not moments of weakness when the teacher doesn't do right by the student? Perhaps. But if those moments persist then the teacher needs to get out. Perhaps out of that school to a different school, or perhaps out of teaching.
A cop's duty is to be brave, to enter into scary, dangerous situations, and still be prepared to act to defend innocent lives. Just as the teacher in a challenging school should not succumb to their doubts about a child's ability, neither should the officer allow their fear to drive them to behaviors that endanger innocent lives. If the officer finds himself afraid because he is called to stop a vehicle that *might* have someone dangerous inside, or because the owner announces they have a gun, they should get out of that field immediately, because they are only creating a more dangerous situation.
Basically we have a case where a black guy is pulled over, and the officer was so keyed up and fearful that he shot him. The system we have in place simply says - "Bummer. It's how it goes for black folk. Cops could get shot by one, ya know, so they have to be prepared when they pull one over."
Obviously I'm using this rhetoric to make a point. The officer who is in control of their fear is in control of their behavior, and in control of the situation. It's their duty to conquer their fears and act accordingly.
Dan, that is a reasonable post so I would be happy to respond....
They ARE leaving. In record droves. We're at 36 and counting in my school alone this year, of a 100 teacher staff.
Same thing is happening in law enforcement. And ironically, the teachers and police officers aren't leaving because of the people they teach/protect, but rather because of political and public pressure. Here's what's happening in Virginia right now, and nationwide (in education as well. Record numbers).
And the problem is, nobody wants to replace them. We are about to face a crisis in both situations.
“These are detectives, they’re officers that have been with the department anywhere from five to 10 years,” explained Detective Brad Nixon, who is Vice President of the Richmond Coalition of Police.
Even more concerning, Nixon reveals to 8News that the cops who are calling it quits are veterans in the prime of their career.
“They have the college degree, they have the experience,” says Nixon.
cop3The national scrutiny surrounding policing combined with low morale, low pay and officers under attack has many cops.
“The law enforcement profession may not be respected by the general public they way it used to be,” says Schrad. “When you lose that, it is very hard to remain motivated.”
Now a lot of people here will say "good riddance". I say "now what?"
Link - ( New Window )
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Licensed gun owner who had done everything legal to the point of stating he had a concealed carry permit and a gun, was shot to death and yet the NRA has not said one fucking word since their initial tepid statement the day after the shooting.
Does anyone really wonder why that is?
I don't wonder, I know exactly what it is. It's not the reason you think, though.
It's the culture of cop worship on the right in general and the NRA in particular, where those heroes in blue can never do anything wrong and must be slavishly supported at all times.
Probably, but in picking sides it probably helps that the other side of this was not a guy who looks like the typical NRA member/vocal supporter.
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In comment 13507288 montanagiant said:
Quote:
Licensed gun owner who had done everything legal to the point of stating he had a concealed carry permit and a gun, was shot to death and yet the NRA has not said one fucking word since their initial tepid statement the day after the shooting.
Does anyone really wonder why that is?
I don't wonder, I know exactly what it is. It's not the reason you think, though.
It's the culture of cop worship on the right in general and the NRA in particular, where those heroes in blue can never do anything wrong and must be slavishly supported at all times.
Probably, but in picking sides it probably helps that the other side of this was not a guy who looks like the typical NRA member/vocal supporter.
Also, lets not pretend that race and the "culture of cop worship..." you describe are some how completely unrelated.
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all the respect in the world to you. I know you work hard and are committed to your profession. I say that because I'm going to use your teaching analogy to make a point and I don't want you taking it personal - I'm not attacking you.
As you said, there are some schools where teaching is much more challenging than others. In those schools those teachers are VERY prone to thinking about how challenging that environment is. They can easily find blame for student ineptitude everywhere but there own classroom.
But here's the thing. What is their duty? Their duty is to be an example every single day to the kids. Their duty is to believe in their students and inspire them, in spite of their circumstances. Their duty is to challenge those students to rise up.
Does every teacher every day rise to this challenge? Are there not moments of weakness when the teacher doesn't do right by the student? Perhaps. But if those moments persist then the teacher needs to get out. Perhaps out of that school to a different school, or perhaps out of teaching.
A cop's duty is to be brave, to enter into scary, dangerous situations, and still be prepared to act to defend innocent lives. Just as the teacher in a challenging school should not succumb to their doubts about a child's ability, neither should the officer allow their fear to drive them to behaviors that endanger innocent lives. If the officer finds himself afraid because he is called to stop a vehicle that *might* have someone dangerous inside, or because the owner announces they have a gun, they should get out of that field immediately, because they are only creating a more dangerous situation.
Basically we have a case where a black guy is pulled over, and the officer was so keyed up and fearful that he shot him. The system we have in place simply says - "Bummer. It's how it goes for black folk. Cops could get shot by one, ya know, so they have to be prepared when they pull one over."
Obviously I'm using this rhetoric to make a point. The officer who is in control of their fear is in control of their behavior, and in control of the situation. It's their duty to conquer their fears and act accordingly.
Dan, that is a reasonable post so I would be happy to respond....
They ARE leaving. In record droves. We're at 36 and counting in my school alone this year, of a 100 teacher staff.
Same thing is happening in law enforcement. And ironically, the teachers and police officers aren't leaving because of the people they teach/protect, but rather because of political and public pressure. Here's what's happening in Virginia right now, and nationwide (in education as well. Record numbers).
And the problem is, nobody wants to replace them. We are about to face a crisis in both situations.
Quote:
In the first nine months of this year, 103 Virginia State Troopers left the force. Over the past four years, the Richmond Police Department has lost nearly 100 officers. Last year alone, 30 resigned.
“These are detectives, they’re officers that have been with the department anywhere from five to 10 years,” explained Detective Brad Nixon, who is Vice President of the Richmond Coalition of Police.
Even more concerning, Nixon reveals to 8News that the cops who are calling it quits are veterans in the prime of their career.
“They have the college degree, they have the experience,” says Nixon.
Quote:
“We are seeing it across the country,” says Dana Schrad at the Virginia Association of Chiefs of Police. She added that many of these officers resigning are leaving policing period.
cop3The national scrutiny surrounding policing combined with low morale, low pay and officers under attack has many cops.
“The law enforcement profession may not be respected by the general public they way it used to be,” says Schrad. “When you lose that, it is very hard to remain motivated.”
Now a lot of people here will say "good riddance". I say "now what?" Link - ( New Window )
What makes you think a lot of people HERE would say 'good riddance'?
Speaking for myself, I know I'm not. That's alarming. But unfortunately, some of that is because of their own actions (not all of it, but some of it) in the past. As I've said, I think most people (except for the truly criminal among us) have no problem with good police officers... but one bad apple can ruin the whole cart.
Completely? Maybe not, but I can assure you that most NRA types excuse police shootings of any variety. I can't tell you how many fruitless arguments I've had over the shootings of Deven Guilford and Daniel Shaver, for example.
I think it might be the reaction they feel when they are doing THEIR job (and not shooting innocents) rather than the acquittals (which may not happen within 500 miles of where they work with people they only know from the newspapers).
Untrained private citizens, on the other hand, are expected to act an a calm, rational and composed manner, to follow all the instructions to the letter and to do the exact right thing in any encounter with law enforcement, or anything that happens is their fault and the police are blameless.
Someone pulls a gun on on you, points it at your face and starts screaming at you from a couple feet away. What would you do? In those few seconds before they're going to pull the trigger, would you be calm and collected enough to process what's going on, rationally assess the situation and take the correct action? In this situation, what would that action be? Freeze? Put your hands on the steering wheel? Ask for further instructions?
Great Post ... I was thinking the same thing.
Also T-Bone you make a lot of excellent points on this thread, I feel the same way you do on most things. I just didn't have the patience to post about it after watching that video, it bothered me way too much.
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Also, lets not pretend that race and the "culture of cop worship..." you describe are some how completely unrelated.
Completely? Maybe not, but I can assure you that most NRA types excuse police shootings of any variety. I can't tell you how many fruitless arguments I've had over the shootings of Deven Guilford and Daniel Shaver, for example.
It would be too much of a tangent for this thread to fully explore. I think the police are worshiped by some because they're viewed as standing up for the good America of lore against the inner city throngs and immigrants who would over run and undo this great country.
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In comment 13507277 Dan in the Springs said:
Quote:
all the respect in the world to you. I know you work hard and are committed to your profession. I say that because I'm going to use your teaching analogy to make a point and I don't want you taking it personal - I'm not attacking you.
As you said, there are some schools where teaching is much more challenging than others. In those schools those teachers are VERY prone to thinking about how challenging that environment is. They can easily find blame for student ineptitude everywhere but there own classroom.
But here's the thing. What is their duty? Their duty is to be an example every single day to the kids. Their duty is to believe in their students and inspire them, in spite of their circumstances. Their duty is to challenge those students to rise up.
Does every teacher every day rise to this challenge? Are there not moments of weakness when the teacher doesn't do right by the student? Perhaps. But if those moments persist then the teacher needs to get out. Perhaps out of that school to a different school, or perhaps out of teaching.
A cop's duty is to be brave, to enter into scary, dangerous situations, and still be prepared to act to defend innocent lives. Just as the teacher in a challenging school should not succumb to their doubts about a child's ability, neither should the officer allow their fear to drive them to behaviors that endanger innocent lives. If the officer finds himself afraid because he is called to stop a vehicle that *might* have someone dangerous inside, or because the owner announces they have a gun, they should get out of that field immediately, because they are only creating a more dangerous situation.
Basically we have a case where a black guy is pulled over, and the officer was so keyed up and fearful that he shot him. The system we have in place simply says - "Bummer. It's how it goes for black folk. Cops could get shot by one, ya know, so they have to be prepared when they pull one over."
Obviously I'm using this rhetoric to make a point. The officer who is in control of their fear is in control of their behavior, and in control of the situation. It's their duty to conquer their fears and act accordingly.
Dan, that is a reasonable post so I would be happy to respond....
They ARE leaving. In record droves. We're at 36 and counting in my school alone this year, of a 100 teacher staff.
Same thing is happening in law enforcement. And ironically, the teachers and police officers aren't leaving because of the people they teach/protect, but rather because of political and public pressure. Here's what's happening in Virginia right now, and nationwide (in education as well. Record numbers).
And the problem is, nobody wants to replace them. We are about to face a crisis in both situations.
Quote:
In the first nine months of this year, 103 Virginia State Troopers left the force. Over the past four years, the Richmond Police Department has lost nearly 100 officers. Last year alone, 30 resigned.
“These are detectives, they’re officers that have been with the department anywhere from five to 10 years,” explained Detective Brad Nixon, who is Vice President of the Richmond Coalition of Police.
Even more concerning, Nixon reveals to 8News that the cops who are calling it quits are veterans in the prime of their career.
“They have the college degree, they have the experience,” says Nixon.
Quote:
“We are seeing it across the country,” says Dana Schrad at the Virginia Association of Chiefs of Police. She added that many of these officers resigning are leaving policing period.
cop3The national scrutiny surrounding policing combined with low morale, low pay and officers under attack has many cops.
“The law enforcement profession may not be respected by the general public they way it used to be,” says Schrad. “When you lose that, it is very hard to remain motivated.”
Now a lot of people here will say "good riddance". I say "now what?" Link - ( New Window )
What makes you think a lot of people HERE would say 'good riddance'?
Speaking for myself, I know I'm not. That's alarming. But unfortunately, some of that is because of their own actions (not all of it, but some of it) in the past. As I've said, I think most people (except for the truly criminal among us) have no problem with good police officers... but one bad apple can ruin the whole cart.
T-bone, I do not lump you in that category by any means. In fact, I really reflect on what you say, have said, on this thread (and others) over all other posts. Frankly, because I have no idea what it's like to be a police officer, but more importantly because I do not know what it's like to be a person of color in that situation, nor do I pretend to. I can only try to empathize with both sides.
My statement was more directed at the general public, which I also believe we have a small but vocal contingent of here, in regards to being very critical of authority in general.
All of my posts on this thread, and this subject, have been bigger picture rather than any single instance/circumstance. I know what the problem is, but I'm more interested in the solution. And frankly, here, there, or everywhere, I haven't really heard a realistic one yet. But I'm all ears.
It's going to take some difficult, hard conversations on ALL sides of this argument. Frankly, I agree with the very small post lost earlier in this thread. We need leaders in this country. Not bosses, but leaders.
I'm not anti gun ownership, but I personally don't like them. So my opinions are not formed based on the 2nd amendment. I feel like that's relevant to say.
But that is a topic for another thread. This is about the challenge of finding justice for victims of police violence/abuse of power. Can we find solutions? I believe we can, but it will require great leadership, overcoming our divides (political, racial, etc.) and focusing on real solutions.
Right now some seem be claiming that there is no real problem here.
Exactly. Posters who point out ad nauseum that Castille was told not to reach for the weapon 3 times act as though those orders were spoken over a 30 second time period. He went from the first "Don't reach for it" to emptying his clip into another human being in 4 fuckin seconds. During those 4 seconds, I can easily imagine Castille trying to process the best way to proceed and not even suspecting he'd be killed before an average person can tie a shoe.
I know these posters are capable of imagining how such a stressful situation can compromise one's faculties -- they make that very allowance to excuse the cop not performing any sort of medical act for four minutes.
Agreed.
The problem I have with T's poster about expecting civilians to act calm, even though police don't have to, is that Castile WAS calm, and acted in a manner the officer found threatening. Criminy, hands in the air, keep your hands where I can see them, etc is pull over 101. Castile didn't panic. he did something stupid. The cop saw it as a threat, and reacted. The cop didn't panic. he saw a threat and reacted. Was he too quick on the trigger? probably. Was it criminal negligence? myself and the jury think not. This isn't apologizing for any cop. they can be assholes.
The problem I have with T's poster about expecting civilians to act calm, even though police don't have to, is that Castile WAS calm, and acted in a manner the officer found threatening. Criminy, hands in the air, keep your hands where I can see them, etc is pull over 101. Castile didn't panic. he did something stupid. The cop saw it as a threat, and reacted. The cop didn't panic. he saw a threat and reacted. Was he too quick on the trigger? probably. Was it criminal negligence? myself and the jury think not. This isn't apologizing for any cop. they can be assholes.
This is a Bullshit excuse and if you don't see a panicked cop in that video I don't know what the hell you were watching. Castile probably thought that he would calmly tell the cop he had a gun, show his ID and everything would be fine. All of that changes when a panicked person sticks a pistol in your face and starts screaming orders. He now has a few seconds to react just like the cop did.
In your eyes, it's okay for the cop to clearly do something he was not supposed to do (put his hand in a window at a traffic stop when he thinks he's in danger with his gun, shoot someone to death) -- but at the same time, the victim's fault.
There's no rationale response to that other than pointing out your irrationality, and underscoring your hyperbolic comment about black people "living in daily fear of getting shot by the police" as a supporting argument regarding your irrationality.
At this point, it's almost pointless to convince you. You won't ever believe anything other than what you want to fit your narrative. But maybe pointing out the absurdities of your argument can sway others.
The problem I have with T's poster about expecting civilians to act calm, even though police don't have to, is that Castile WAS calm, and acted in a manner the officer found threatening. Criminy, hands in the air, keep your hands where I can see them, etc is pull over 101. Castile didn't panic. he did something stupid. The cop saw it as a threat, and reacted. The cop didn't panic. he saw a threat and reacted. Was he too quick on the trigger? probably. Was it criminal negligence? myself and the jury think not. This isn't apologizing for any cop. they can be assholes.
fkap - as BigBlueDawg said, if you don't see a panicked cop in that video, there's really nothing else for us to discuss.
That said, your post above is EXACTLY why that poster is so true. You've placed every emphasis on the untrained civilian to do EVERYTHING right in a high pressure situation (getting pulled over by a cop... for a black man (especially in these times, it doesn't get much more high pressured than that) and have placed NOTHING on the trained individual to do ANYTHING right.
All Castile knew was that he was being pulled over for a busted taillight. He didn't know the cop was REALLY pulling him over because he matched the description of a robbery suspect from a few days ago. Had the officer either acted the way he should've acted when trying to arrest a suspected bank robber (make the individual get out of the car with his hands up) OR had he been honest with Castile in the first place as to why he was pulled over (matching the description of a bank robber, perhaps Castile would've been more careful in reaching for anything. As far as Castile knew, he was just pulled over for a stupid broken taillight and there was no reason for the officer to be alarmed or perceive him as any kind of threat.
Which is what he did and was supposed to do. Now why, upon hearing this, if the officer was suddenly that concerned about being ambushed and shot by the person who just told him he had the gun, didn't he position himself in a way that HAD Castile gone full on stupid and tried to shoot him with that gun he'd be in a better position to be missed by the shots? Again, remember, the cop saw Castile as a threat, Castile had no reason to think he was being threatening to a cop who pulled him over just for a broken taillight.
Again, maybe because Castile didn't know the real reason why he was being pulled over in the first place?
Of course he was calm... he had no reason not to be (as far as HE (Castile) knew). As far as he knew, at worst he was about to get a ticket for a broken taillight. Not be arrested on suspicion of robbing a bank a few days ago.
The only 'stupid' thing he did was apparently reach for his wallet when told to get his ID by the officer. Then again... he was just following the officer's orders so I don't know how 'stupid' that could be.
Again, if you don't see a panicked cop in that video then there's really nothing else to say.
This line is the one that REALLY bothers me. 'Probably'? After knowing EVERYTHING that's gone down after he was killed... you REALLY think that the cop WASN'T too quick on the trigger? That thinking right there is why I get very nervous when I get pulled over. Because there are people out there... that after seeing what's happened and learning about everything since the shooting... still don't think the officer did anything wrong. That's scary.
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because other officers are routinely acquitted on bad shoots probably shouldnt be cops.
I think it might be the reaction they feel when they are doing THEIR job (and not shooting innocents) rather than the acquittals (which may not happen within 500 miles of where they work with people they only know from the newspapers).
I don't get why police don't want people who do things like what this cop did to Castille to be prosecuted.
The problem I have with T's poster about expecting civilians to act calm, even though police don't have to, is that Castile WAS calm, and acted in a manner the officer found threatening. Criminy, hands in the air, keep your hands where I can see them, etc is pull over 101. Castile didn't panic. he did something stupid. The cop saw it as a threat, and reacted. The cop didn't panic. he saw a threat and reacted. Was he too quick on the trigger? probably. Was it criminal negligence? myself and the jury think not. This isn't apologizing for any cop. they can be assholes.
You say Castille did something stupid... but keep making excuses for the man who murdered a calm person in front of his family.
On another note, I also want to know why the hell they handcuffed Reynolds. It's a quick detail to gloss over, but goes a long way towards the mindset of some who have authority over others.
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Is that people give the police, who are supposed to be trained professionals, a very wide latitude to screw up, make mistakes, act out of panic or fear, etc.
Exactly. Posters who point out ad nauseum that Castille was told not to reach for the weapon 3 times act as though those orders were spoken over a 30 second time period. He went from the first "Don't reach for it" to emptying his clip into another human being in 4 fuckin seconds. During those 4 seconds, I can easily imagine Castille trying to process the best way to proceed and not even suspecting he'd be killed before an average person can tie a shoe.
I know these posters are capable of imagining how such a stressful situation can compromise one's faculties -- they make that very allowance to excuse the cop not performing any sort of medical act for four minutes.
Nicely stated.
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In comment 13507482 Deej said:
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because other officers are routinely acquitted on bad shoots probably shouldnt be cops.
I think it might be the reaction they feel when they are doing THEIR job (and not shooting innocents) rather than the acquittals (which may not happen within 500 miles of where they work with people they only know from the newspapers).
Which can be avoided by addressing the problem and instilling accountability instead of what occurs today.
I don't get why police don't want people who do things like what this cop did to Castille to be prosecuted.
"Police". You think it's the majority of police or a very small percentage that feel this way?
You think police officers like Dan's son are part of some sinister plot to kill innocent civilians and get away with it, laughing all the way to the armory?
We need to stop demonizing entire professions for a very small contingent of that profession doing this.
Because of all the silliness that happened before this, we haven't even really gotten to this part yet! They have her handcuffed in the back of the squad car like THEY did something wrong. What exactly were they being arrested/detained for? Live streaming the cop killing her boyfriend?
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In comment 13507509 njm said:
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In comment 13507482 Deej said:
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because other officers are routinely acquitted on bad shoots probably shouldnt be cops.
I think it might be the reaction they feel when they are doing THEIR job (and not shooting innocents) rather than the acquittals (which may not happen within 500 miles of where they work with people they only know from the newspapers).
Which can be avoided by addressing the problem and instilling accountability instead of what occurs today.
I don't get why police don't want people who do things like what this cop did to Castille to be prosecuted.
"Police". You think it's the majority of police or a very small percentage that feel this way?
You think police officers like Dan's son are part of some sinister plot to kill innocent civilians and get away with it, laughing all the way to the armory?
We need to stop demonizing entire professions for a very small contingent of that profession doing this.
Not 100% sure but I think Sonic had a bit of dyslexia there and meant to say...
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the problem I have with your stance, and many others here, is that Castile had extended time to assess his situation. He knew he had a gun, and that could present a problem. He knew he should notify the officer that he had a gun. He knew this when pulled over. he had a lot of time to process the situation. How is it not reasonable to expect him to also know that, having recognized that having a gun would create a situation, and having the presence of mind to inform the officer, should also recognize the necessity to not give the officer cause for alarm (such as reaching for something)? Castile had plenty of time to assess the situation. The officer had mere seconds.
The problem I have with T's poster about expecting civilians to act calm, even though police don't have to, is that Castile WAS calm, and acted in a manner the officer found threatening. Criminy, hands in the air, keep your hands where I can see them, etc is pull over 101. Castile didn't panic. he did something stupid. The cop saw it as a threat, and reacted. The cop didn't panic. he saw a threat and reacted. Was he too quick on the trigger? probably. Was it criminal negligence? myself and the jury think not. This isn't apologizing for any cop. they can be assholes.
This is a Bullshit excuse and if you don't see a panicked cop in that video I don't know what the hell you were watching. Castile probably thought that he would calmly tell the cop he had a gun, show his ID and everything would be fine. All of that changes when a panicked person sticks a pistol in your face and starts screaming orders. He now has a few seconds to react just like the cop did.
Also missing in this is that the victim had been pulled over more than 40 times previously, yet he survived each one of them. And I am going to assume that at least a handful of time he informed the officers that he had a concealed weapon. So what was different in this case? The guy, who most likely went through this kind of stop and conversation about his legal firearm? Or the cop, who went from 0-60 in four seconds flat? Hmmm?
The cop saw it as a threat, and reacted. The cop didn't panic. he saw a threat and reacted.
Again, if you don't see a panicked cop in that video then there's really nothing else to say.
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Was he too quick on the trigger? probably.
This line is the one that REALLY bothers me. 'Probably'? After knowing EVERYTHING that's gone down after he was killed... you REALLY think that the cop WASN'T too quick on the trigger? That thinking right there is why I get very nervous when I get pulled over. Because there are people out there... that after seeing what's happened and learning about everything since the shooting... still don't think the officer did anything wrong. That's scary.
The officer absolutely panicked. I've seen people panic in life and death situations, and I've seen people panic in non-life and death situations during training. Everything about the officer's actions and body language as well as his voice inflection indicates a sense of panic. Then to top it off, he goes int shock for four minutes leading to the disregarding of providing first aid to a dying man. If that isn't indication of someone, who has hit his limits with regards to emotionally being able to respond to a situation, I don't know what is.
Once again, you can't have someone who is able to assess a situation as being threatening and react in a deliberate manner then all of a sudden go into shock after his own action. That's not how it works, fkap. That's not how it fucking works. You can't have your cake and eat it to in your quest for rationalizing this situation.
Seriously... I get a little nervous when I'm pulling up to my job and see a cop car sitting outside of the building. Why? Because I've had a couple of cops come to my job (this was about 15 years ago) and harass me as a favor to a friend of one of theirs because I wouldn't agree to pay for a dent on his car that I know I didn't cause. The story goes...
I was going through Old Town - Alexandria one day and I came up to a light and by the time I'd stopped I was in the crosswalk. I'd usually just stay there but I looked to my right and noticed a guy in a wheelchair and so decided to back my car up to get out of his way (trying to be a nice guy and do the right thing). Before backing up and looked in my rear view mirror and saw noone behind me so I started easing back... when all of a sudden I hear a horn behind me. I look and there's a guy in his car looking at me as if I'd hit him. I honestly don't know if I hit him or not as I was going back so slowly that when he blew his horn I immediately stopped and didn't feel anything as if I'd hit him. So I continued on through the light but I noticed the guy never moved so I thought to myself 'Shit, I didn't hit that guy did I?'. So I immediately pulled over and he caught up to me and pulled over. The first thing out of his mouth was 'I hope you have insurance.'. I told him at the time I didn't because I'd JUST cancelled mine a few days before because I was about to move in with my girlfriend (now wife of 13 years) and was moving from MD to VA. I looked at his fender and I saw a scratch about the size of a quarter on his fender. Even though I couldn't confirm or deny whether I'd hit him or not, I told him that I'd gladly pay for damage that small and we exchanged numbers and I told him to meet me at a dealership where a buddy of mind could easily fix that little scratch.
Fast forward about a week. We meet at the dealership and when me and my buddy (I'd already explained to him what happened) go out to take a look at the car... the guy doesn't show the both of us the scratch... but instead shows us a dent the size of a softball on the TOP of his hood ALL THE WAY ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE HOOD FROM THE SCRATCH! I'm like 'Ok... I remember that (and point to the scratch)... but what is this (pointing to the dent)?'. All the guy started saying over and over again is "All I know is I was only in one accident.". My friend pulls me to the side and says 'Hey man, I know there's no way in hell you did that dent... but to save you the trouble I'll take care of the dent, but not the scratch.'. We both went to tell the guy what the deal was and he said he wanted me to pay to get both the dent AND the scratch done. I was like 'Hell no' and I told him I'd pay for the dent but not the scratch. He says 'ok' and we both leave and he was supposed to come back at another time to get the dent fixed.
Fast forward a few days. I come into work and I get a call that there are some police officers downstairs who need to talk to me. As far as I knew I didn't do anything I should've been in trouble for so I gladly go down to the front desk and meet them in one of our conference rooms. It's there that they begin to tell me about an accident they'd received a call about and how I wasn't willing to pay for the damages. They then told me that I can agree to pay for ALL of the damages now, or I can go to jail. Well... what was I going to do at that point? So I wound up having to pay for something I didn't do. I saw the two officers laughing and poking each other as they walked out the building. I never felt so angry... and hopeless... at the same time in my whole life.
So yeah... I've been in a few instances of my own where I wasn't treated fairly.