BBC Breaking News& #8207;Verified account @BBCBreaking 3m3 minutes ago
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Otto Warmbier, US student held in North Korea, has died after returning home in a coma, family says
If that even happened. Since it's North Korea, who the hell knows?
No idea why any Westerner would even think about going to NK now. Not that I would have understood it before, but since they pretty much straight up murdered this kid, it would be even more baffling now.
Or he did get botulism, vomited, aspirated it and was effectively suffocated by his own vomit. I'm sure he wasn't attended to vigilantly by the DPNK guards....
He was in China and saw an add for a tour of North Korea that was "safe" for tourists. They accused him of stealing a poster from the hotel, released video that never showed the face of the person doing it.
trying to understand why NK decided to send him back in this state? If he died in jail couldn't they have made up the cause?
We will never really understand those guys.
My bet, he probably was on life support (and had been for a while) when he arrived in the US. The Koreans gave him back as such only confirm it was futile and pull the plug.....
Honestly the partial blame can be put on our government Â
trying to understand why NK decided to send him back in this state? If he died in jail couldn't they have made up the cause?
We will never really understand those guys.
My bet, he probably was on life support (and had been for a while) when he arrived in the US. The Koreans gave him back as such only confirm it was futile and pull the plug.....
I suspect this is right. He was an expense to them and they either needed to pull the plug (or worse, euthanize him if it wasnt a "pull the plug" situation) or send him home. And ultimately decided to be slightly more humane at the end.
Yes. Pure evil. Remember this is a "ruler" who kills his staff with anti aircraft or other large guns. So why care about a foreigner, especially from the U.S.? He's just a tool to use to make us angry. RIP. God bless. Prayers to him and his family and friends.
Yes. Pure evil. Remember this is a "ruler" who kills his staff with anti aircraft or other large guns. So why care about a foreigner, especially from the U.S.? He's just a tool to use to make us angry. RIP. God bless. Prayers to him and his family and friends.
The Warmbier family did not negotiate with the North Korean government themselves.
This took political means
We have people on here rightly blaming the North Korean government, which is political
We have people on here blaming our governments travel policy, which is political
The previous inaction by the prior administration in its 11 months on the case is a part of this story and deserves to be mentioned, no matter inconvenient that fact may be
I did not attempt to make it "political" by adding to those facts or putting them in comparison to other administrations
This is certainly not the Obama Administrations fault. That lies with North Korea alone
But concerned citizens have a right to ask what was done and what was not done and why.U
Deserves what he got from that scumbag country for what he did, but Jesus Christ....You have to know where you are when you do dumb shit like this in a foreign country, especially a toilet like this one .
all your premises are incorrect. Cuba freed 53 Americans in one swoop under the last admin, plus there was at least one other person freed. Check the news. Iran freed the sailors they snatched up. Iran freed 4 hostages in a much debated apparent exchange for cash the US had frozen. The last admin was not silent about Warmbier. In fact, it imposed new sanctions they day after his sentencing.
You have no idea what efforts the US made to bring this boy home. Did the last admin get Warbier freed and home and healthy? No, it did not. That simply cant be the standard we measure our administrations by, lets we just encourage our leaders to bow to hostage takers in ever instance. By the same token, the fact that the last admin brought home the people described above should not just be accepted as a great diplomatic fete. You must evaluate the give and the get in these deals.
The Warmbier family did not negotiate with the North Korean government themselves.
This took political means
We have people on here rightly blaming the North Korean government, which is political
We have people on here blaming our governments travel policy, which is political
The previous inaction by the prior administration in its 11 months on the case is a part of this story and deserves to be mentioned, no matter inconvenient that fact may be
I did not attempt to make it "political" by adding to those facts or putting them in comparison to other administrations
This is certainly not the Obama Administrations fault. That lies with North Korea alone
But concerned citizens have a right to ask what was done and what was not done and why.U
There is a place for concerned citizens to discuss what should have been done. Tens of thousands of them. Here isn't one of them.
That the Obama Administration told the family to be "patient" and"keep quiet" in the 11 months they were on office and he was there?
And this isn't a 1-0ff. They did not get anyone released from either Cuba or Iran despite favorable deals to both countries.
I'm not trying to make this political by any means, but these are major facts of this news story.
This is what's a little scary about the future of Democracy in this country. The Internet is so full of Fake News.....you don't know what to believe. Somebody says "Obama didn't do anything for any prisoners anywhere." And that idea is out there. Then Deej gives a list of what Obama actually did do for Hostages.
It's like that idiot who "read on the internet" that Hillary was running a child sex ring out of a pizzeria in Washington DC. So he drove up there, and started shooting up a crowded Pizza Joint.
A functioning Democracy requires a well-informed public. Not all this Alex Jones baloney. You can't run every sentence thru Snopes.
how little the media has done to cover North Korea.
I mean, it seems like everyone blithely prats around assuming "if I were around during Hitler I would have -done something-"
I mean, we all wish that, but, what would you have really done big guy? Nothing probably. Maybe at least shout it from the mountaintops...but now? All these years later,... North Korea....mostly silence.
And Stalin - to understand the whole nature of really living in a totalitarian society...where you cannot even have your own THOUGHTs, make art the wrong way, listen to the wrong music, talk out loud in front of almost anyone, and its torture and death.
Stalins work camps:
-working on a handful of corn a day, getting beat down randomly, even murdered by the guards, and without any recourse at all, or for any reason, being murdered for simply having any identity, any ethnicity, any nationality, any theory, other than 'happy state peon' it is all happening in North Korea right now.
When they first sent Warmbler home, there was a slew of big media headlines "Warmbler Released - What is Botulism?"
how little the media has done to cover North Korea.
I mean, it seems like everyone blithely prats around assuming "if I were around during Hitler I would have -done something-"
I mean, we all wish that, but, what would you have really done big guy? Nothing probably. Maybe at least shout it from the mountaintops...but now? All these years later,... North Korea....mostly silence.
And Stalin - to understand the whole nature of really living in a totalitarian society...where you cannot even have your own THOUGHTs, make art the wrong way, listen to the wrong music, talk out loud in front of almost anyone, and its torture and death.
Stalins work camps:
-working on a handful of corn a day, getting beat down randomly, even murdered by the guards, and without any recourse at all, or for any reason, being murdered for simply having any identity, any ethnicity, any nationality, any theory, other than 'happy state peon' it is all happening in North Korea right now.
When they first sent Warmbler home, there was a slew of big media headlines "Warmbler Released - What is Botulism?"
- Yeah, Right, great job people.
Is your complaint that the media has not killed the N.K. dictator? Wasnt that the plot of that James Franco movie?
''Otto Warmbier was evacuated from a North Korean prison this week. Warmbier, a student from Cincinnati, visited North Korea in January of 2016. He was arrested for trying to steal a propaganda sign in his hotel and sentenced to 15 years hard labor. Details about his release are still unfolding, but his parents report that he’s very ill and in a coma.
And while the news of Warmbier is making headlines here in the U.S.—it’s only a small reminder of the darkness and brutality thousands of North Koreans are experiencing in hard labor camps under the regime of Kim Jong-un. Right now, an estimated 120,000 North Koreans are being held in prison camps that the head of a U.N. inquiry panel says are “strikingly similar” to the Nazi atrocities in World War II.
While any sort of free-thinking in North Korea is harshly punished, participating in any religious practice—Christianity in particular—results in being sent to one of these prison camps where most end up dying. Here are three things you need to know about what life for a Christian is like in a prison camp, and how we can be praying for our persecuted family in North Korea.
FOOD IS SCARCE
Hyuk Kim, who fled North Korea after three years in a prison camp, said his daily ration was a handful of cornmeal and a few dozen small beans. Others have reported even less. Because of this one of the most common causes of death in a North Korean prison camp are side effects of malnutrition.
Prisoners who work in the fields may attempt to eat grass or leaves. On a good day, a prisoner may catch a rat but would have to eat it raw as the smell from cooking it could alert the prison guards. A lucky few end up on kitchen duty and can sneak scraps of food; however, those caught doing this will be beaten mercilessly.
THE LABOR IS BRUTAL
There are dozens of different jobs prisoners may be assigned but they all share some common traits: prisoners are expected to perform physically grueling tasks for hours on end with no rest. All while starving to death.
Kenneth Bae, a missionary imprisoned in a camp and later released, described working long hours manually tilling rocky soil in a field. Bae would routinely lose dozens of pounds, be sent to hospitals to recover, and then be sent back to camps. Most simply work until they die.
FREE THOUGHT IS FORBIDDEN
Prisoners are forbidden from any obvious act of religious faith. Even secret prayer meetings are rare as it’s impossible to know who to trust. One of the few ways to receive special privileges is to report on fellow prisoners. Relationships are so fragile some don’t trust their own families.
''
stories have been done, but, even when given a good excuse, warmbler situation, to put this into the actual top of the vaunted News Feed, no, 'botulism' instead, than how the young man is doing, but still nothing on the work/death/though control camps.
At least, not in the News Feed.
I mean, Washington Post, all that, yada yada every day, all day, but not this subject.
go to North Korea a few years ago? I thought i remembered seeing some pretty amazing pictures from him.
I wonder if he had any issues when he was there.
Excellent memory! I was there in 2008 after the Beijing Olympics. I went with a British operator and stayed in the same hotel he was accused of stealing the poster from. And yes, I had some issues there. I was accused of stealing a butter knife from my hotel room. I was taken off a bus, interrogated and had my suitcase checked before being allowed to leave when they couldn't locate the knife. Unbeknownst to me at the time, I inadvertently swept it into a pile of papers stuffed in my briefcase; now I use it as a letter opener and a reminder to myself how close to MAJOR TROUBLE a dull knife got me.
I've followed this closely and the video sure looks like one of the hallways in a public area of the Yanggakdo hotel, but you certainly can't tell its Otto Warmbier - frankly, it looks a little stilted. The hotel is on an island in the Taedong River in central Pyongyang. At night the draw bridge is pulled up and you're isolated even further. The number of people who would be able to access that area would be extremely, extremely limited.
My first thought when this unfortunate news popped today is that this is how wars start. I'm of the belief that they knew he was ready to go, so they sent him back before he died in captivity. If he dies in DPRK, all hell breaks loose, no questions asked. It could not go unanswered. If he dies here, maybe there's room for reflection. Could be wrong - don't think I am.
I wonder if we will get the other Americans imprisoned there back now; this is horrible news for all, including (and maybe especially) DPRK.
That the Obama Administration told the family to be "patient" and"keep quiet" in the 11 months they were on office and he was there?
And this isn't a 1-0ff. They did not get anyone released from either Cuba or Iran despite favorable deals to both countries.
I'm not trying to make this political by any means, but these are major facts of this news story.
This is what's a little scary about the future of Democracy in this country. The Internet is so full of Fake News.....you don't know what to believe. Somebody says "Obama didn't do anything for any prisoners anywhere." And that idea is out there. Then Deej gives a list of what Obama actually did do for Hostages.
It's like that idiot who "read on the internet" that Hillary was running a child sex ring out of a pizzeria in Washington DC. So he drove up there, and started shooting up a crowded Pizza Joint.
A functioning Democracy requires a well-informed public. Not all this Alex Jones baloney. You can't run every sentence thru Snopes.
I dont think this is an internet issue. People just assume that because they dont know of something that the thing must not exist. Im sure there is a fancy term for it.
Thus, the post that the last admin did not secure the release of prisoners from Cuba or Iran because the poster is unaware that they did.
Or the insidious, how come Muslims never denounce terrorism... from people who simply fail to do any research before speaking.
I don't want to go to far into it because this thread Â
However, the 53 prisoners that were freed in Cuba by Obama were not American prisoners but Cuban dissidents. While awesome; that the Obama Admin did that, its not the point I was making
But I did look it up again and Obama did get 1 American prisoner freed in Alan Gross but had to free 3 Cubans in America to do so.
You are right about Iran and I had forgotten about the controversial prisoner swap and money deal in Iran.
In the end, I will say I was wrong to bring up the Iran/Cuba part into my point about Warmbier. 1- i was wrong but 2- it is unrelated to the point.
I will stand by my point that how the Obama Admin handled Warmbier is a legit point to be discussed. It was one of the first things brought up by his parents.
I decided against it because it seemed like most of the reports from folks who had gone were too similar. I knew I'd be lead around by minders and only allowed to see what they wanted me to see, so ultimately, it didn't feel like it was worth the money. If I ever had taken the time to learn Korean, that might change things.
But right now, you couldn't pay me to visit. With tensions escalating between the U.S. and NK, even before this kid came back half dead, I don't think the North Koreans might even wait for an excuse to grab an American tourist on a vacation and use them as a bargaining chip in their poor excuse for statecraft.
Isnt it ironic that you rail against people reading things off the internet and then cite as evidence the the fact that you just got this off this thread in a post by some unknown person named Deej?
And as previously stated, Deej was mostly right but not completely.
I would like to avoid discussing that end of this because 1- i already admitted i was wrong and 2- its not that relevant to Warmbier
How would any of this make me an "Alex Jones"? jeez, everyone gets so extreme. You have no idea my political strand. I am highly informed on what's going on but not infallible as I already admitted to.
I was pretty cautious about how I worded y statement to overtly avoid a direct criticism and comparison about the Obama Admin but for bringing it up Im "Alex Jones"?
Most of my point was to bring up how the Obama Admin handled this and one benefit of that is to help dispel certain untruths, myths or overhype's, etc.
I not know if if Obama Admin didright or wrong here, thats the point but sweeping it under the rug isnt gonna help and will lead to false facts.
A man died here. And it appears to be some questions as to how it was handled. I think its fair to ask some questions.
That the Obama Administration told the family to be "patient" and"keep quiet" in the 11 months they were on office and he was there?
And this isn't a 1-0ff. They did not get anyone released from either Cuba or Iran despite favorable deals to both countries.
I'm not trying to make this political by any means, but these are major facts of this news story.
This is what's a little scary about the future of Democracy in this country. The Internet is so full of Fake News.....you don't know what to believe. Somebody says "Obama didn't do anything for any prisoners anywhere." And that idea is out there. Then Deej gives a list of what Obama actually did do for Hostages.
It's like that idiot who "read on the internet" that Hillary was running a child sex ring out of a pizzeria in Washington DC. So he drove up there, and started shooting up a crowded Pizza Joint.
A functioning Democracy requires a well-informed public. Not all this Alex Jones baloney. You can't run every sentence thru Snopes.
However, the 53 prisoners that were freed in Cuba by Obama were not American prisoners but Cuban dissidents. While awesome; that the Obama Admin did that, its not the point I was making
But I did look it up again and Obama did get 1 American prisoner freed in Alan Gross but had to free 3 Cubans in America to do so.
You are right about Iran and I had forgotten about the controversial prisoner swap and money deal in Iran.
In the end, I will say I was wrong to bring up the Iran/Cuba part into my point about Warmbier. 1- i was wrong but 2- it is unrelated to the point.
I will stand by my point that how the Obama Admin handled Warmbier is a legit point to be discussed. It was one of the first things brought up by his parents.
Other than Gross, who are the Americans imprisoned in Cuba you are talking about. I just looked quickly on Cuba and didnt see any identified.
Your point on Obama/Warmbier without the incorrect Iran/Cuba argument is this:
"That the Obama Administration told the family to be "patient" and"keep quiet" in the 11 months they were on office and he was there"
So explain your argument. If they had not kept quiet, what would have happened? The North Koreans would be shamed into releasing this kid? Come, the fuck, on.
You have literally no idea what levers the last admin pulled to try to get OW released, nor do you know what other negotiations were going on. What if the NKs were trying to leverage Warmbier for concessions on sanctions and other weighty issues (they almost certainly were)? Can you tell me the details of those negotiations?
Well Warmbier has just been released and as far as we can tell 1- his condition has been in a coma since April I believe and that fact hadnt changed so he wasnt released due to a drastic change in his condition and he could have been on life support indefinitely and 2- we are unaware of anything of consequence that the US has given up in exchange.
So, whatever "leverage" that you rampantly speculate ondoesnt seem to be anything of importance
However, the 53 prisoners that were freed in Cuba by Obama were not American prisoners but Cuban dissidents. While awesome; that the Obama Admin did that, its not the point I was making
But I did look it up again and Obama did get 1 American prisoner freed in Alan Gross but had to free 3 Cubans in America to do so.
You are right about Iran and I had forgotten about the controversial prisoner swap and money deal in Iran.
In the end, I will say I was wrong to bring up the Iran/Cuba part into my point about Warmbier. 1- i was wrong but 2- it is unrelated to the point.
I will stand by my point that how the Obama Admin handled Warmbier is a legit point to be discussed. It was one of the first things brought up by his parents.
Other than Gross, who are the Americans imprisoned in Cuba you are talking about. I just looked quickly on Cuba and didnt see any identified.
Your point on Obama/Warmbier without the incorrect Iran/Cuba argument is this:
"That the Obama Administration told the family to be "patient" and"keep quiet" in the 11 months they were on office and he was there"
So explain your argument. If they had not kept quiet, what would have happened? The North Koreans would be shamed into releasing this kid? Come, the fuck, on.
You have literally no idea what levers the last admin pulled to try to get OW released, nor do you know what other negotiations were going on. What if the NKs were trying to leverage Warmbier for concessions on sanctions and other weighty issues (they almost certainly were)? Can you tell me the details of those negotiations?
Well Warmbier has just been released and as far as we can tell 1- his condition has been in a coma since April I believe and that fact hadnt changed so he wasnt released due to a drastic change in his condition and he could have been on life support indefinitely and 2- we are unaware of anything of consequence that the US has given up in exchange.
So, whatever "leverage" that you rampantly speculate ondoesnt seem to be anything of importance
Im not the one criticizing how the admin handled the situation with basically no information. That's you.
You made an assumption that the last admin didnt do enough because they told the family to not lead a public charge on this and because the admin secured no prisoner releases from Cuba and Iran. You were wrong about that but you're sticking with your premise, based on basically nothing. That's bad faith argument. Why dont you tell us how you were right about the Eli Manning trade again?
Who are the other Americans in Cuba that you think need to be released?
I don't have comments about one presidential adminsitration Â
or the other, but I think that besides Shakur, there are several, maybe dozens of other fugitives being sheltered in Cuba, including several cop killers. I do think that those people need to be either returned or shived before sanctions are lifted again. YMMV
RE: A few years ago, I thought about visiting NK Â
I decided against it because it seemed like most of the reports from folks who had gone were too similar. I knew I'd be lead around by minders and only allowed to see what they wanted me to see, so ultimately, it didn't feel like it was worth the money. If I ever had taken the time to learn Korean, that might change things.
But right now, you couldn't pay me to visit. With tensions escalating between the U.S. and NK, even before this kid came back half dead, I don't think the North Koreans might even wait for an excuse to grab an American tourist on a vacation and use them as a bargaining chip in their poor excuse for statecraft.
Wise choice. Do you really want to risk busting rocks in a NK prison camp because you didn't bow down long enough to one of the statues of Dear Leader or something stupid like that?
I decided against it because it seemed like most of the reports from folks who had gone were too similar. I knew I'd be lead around by minders and only allowed to see what they wanted me to see, so ultimately, it didn't feel like it was worth the money. If I ever had taken the time to learn Korean, that might change things.
But right now, you couldn't pay me to visit. With tensions escalating between the U.S. and NK, even before this kid came back half dead, I don't think the North Koreans might even wait for an excuse to grab an American tourist on a vacation and use them as a bargaining chip in their poor excuse for statecraft.
Wise choice. Do you really want to risk busting rocks in a NK prison camp because you didn't bow down long enough to one of the statues of Dear Leader or something stupid like that?
Absolutely. They don't need a reason to arrest you, beat you, or make you smash rocks. NK is THEIR world. If you want to meet it face to face and run the risk of what happened to Otto, that's on you.
RE: Honestly the partial blame can be put on our government Â
It should be illegal to travel there, but its not. Its just advised against.
What does NK care what we think about where or why he died. Its not like were going to do anything about it.
Uh, news flash, we still live in America where we are free (for now) to travel where we want, no matter how ill-advised.
Make it illegal? No. But I would certainly support a statement that if you choose to go to North Korea you're on your own. No State Department aid. No quid pro quo. If there's a problem it's strictly your problem.
RE: Honestly the partial blame can be put on our government Â
It should be illegal to travel there, but its not. Its just advised against.
Really, you would rather have more laws telling you where you can and cannot travel? Zero blame goes to our government for this. Any traveler should be acutely aware, that traveling to DPRK is super risky. 15 years of hard labor for allegedly stealing a poster? That govt is looking for an excuse to stick it to the US, and is willing to use innocent citizens as pawns.
DennyInDenville, A Jones does a whole lot more than ask questions. He makes emphatic statements masked as facts, solely designed to rile you up. If you buy into that BS you are a fool. I have no desire to waste my time on conspiracy theories. There is enough challenge to deal with real issues.
a foolish exercise to start blaming the Presidential Administration (this one or the prior one) regarding Otto Warmbier.
While I would have loved for Obama to have flexed his might and said "We are the US. Give us back our boy NOW," that's not exactly how it works.
There is so much that we don't know about NOrth Korea and about how the the US State Department and DOD is trying to handle the unstable dictator and his rockets pointed at Seoul.
More than that, between North Korea, Russia, Iran, and all of the countries in the ME not doing enough to root out barbaric jihadis, how spread out can our military possibly get?
go to North Korea a few years ago? I thought i remembered seeing some pretty amazing pictures from him.
I wonder if he had any issues when he was there.
Excellent memory! I was there in 2008 after the Beijing Olympics. I went with a British operator and stayed in the same hotel he was accused of stealing the poster from. And yes, I had some issues there. I was accused of stealing a butter knife from my hotel room. I was taken off a bus, interrogated and had my suitcase checked before being allowed to leave when they couldn't locate the knife. Unbeknownst to me at the time, I inadvertently swept it into a pile of papers stuffed in my briefcase; now I use it as a letter opener and a reminder to myself how close to MAJOR TROUBLE a dull knife got me.
I've followed this closely and the video sure looks like one of the hallways in a public area of the Yanggakdo hotel, but you certainly can't tell its Otto Warmbier - frankly, it looks a little stilted. The hotel is on an island in the Taedong River in central Pyongyang. At night the draw bridge is pulled up and you're isolated even further. The number of people who would be able to access that area would be extremely, extremely limited.
My first thought when this unfortunate news popped today is that this is how wars start. I'm of the belief that they knew he was ready to go, so they sent him back before he died in captivity. If he dies in DPRK, all hell breaks loose, no questions asked. It could not go unanswered. If he dies here, maybe there's room for reflection. Could be wrong - don't think I am.
I wonder if we will get the other Americans imprisoned there back now; this is horrible news for all, including (and maybe especially) DPRK.
Glowrider, you got more guts than me. No chance in hell I'd go to NK.
Some of those risks are stupid. On relatively rare occasions, those risks end tragically. The involvement of a bizarre, hated sovereign state in his death adds a political dimension to this tragedy. But at its core, this story isn't all that different from thousands of other thrill-seeking deaths. Maybe he stole a poster; maybe he didn't. Either way, he followed his curiosity to a hostile place he had no good reason for going, and paid the ultimate price for pushing the edge of the envelope.
My heart goes out to his parents. This isn't a major international incident - not even close, and nothing will be gained by treating it as one. It's just a horrible, crushing loss for one family.
Some of those risks are stupid. On relatively rare occasions, those risks end tragically. The involvement of a bizarre, hated sovereign state in his death adds a political dimension to this tragedy. But at its core, this story isn't all that different from thousands of other thrill-seeking deaths. Maybe he stole a poster; maybe he didn't. Either way, he followed his curiosity to a hostile place he had no good reason for going, and paid the ultimate price for pushing the edge of the envelope.
My heart goes out to his parents. This isn't a major international incident - not even close, and nothing will be gained by treating it as one. It's just a horrible, crushing loss for one family.
This, exactly. I'm sure when I was his age I did some idiotic things along the same lines that could have gotten me killed, just that I was on the better side of the odds than Otto was. Damn shame that he had to go out like that.
and Hey I think I will steal something, then this guy was doomed to make a stupid decision and probably would have made other tragic mistakes. I feel for his family but this guy made a choice the North Koreans didn't kidnap him. He danced with the Fire and lost. He could have went to South Korea and had a much better time in Seoul.
Some of those risks are stupid. On relatively rare occasions, those risks end tragically. The involvement of a bizarre, hated sovereign state in his death adds a political dimension to this tragedy. But at its core, this story isn't all that different from thousands of other thrill-seeking deaths. Maybe he stole a poster; maybe he didn't. Either way, he followed his curiosity to a hostile place he had no good reason for going, and paid the ultimate price for pushing the edge of the envelope.
My heart goes out to his parents. This isn't a major international incident - not even close, and nothing will be gained by treating it as one. It's just a horrible, crushing loss for one family.
amen
the obvious story here is not about one young mans risk taking Â
the story to be had here, what is newsworthy and notable, is about a true totalitarian dictatorship - one that still exists in todays world, all that George Orwell dreamed up, all that unmitigated evil, Purely Stalinist, immensely hard to fathom.
Then, a much smaller sub story, but also worthwhile, the absolute loss of moral center on the part of some of our fellow Americans, including media and entertainment pundits, who seem unable to face the true story.
Including some:
"Mindless Moral Relativism on a Staggering Scale"
(never thought I would post a link to this particular news and opinion source, but this guy has a point)
Hanging in Beijing, sees a cheap tour to NK from a Chinese based Brit operator who seems to be on the wrong side of careless. Trips were advertised almost as booze cruises - in fact the Beijing office of the tour operator doubles as a bar!
I spent almost a year with Visa applications being granted and revoked multiple times. During that period I spent a great deal of time de-risking as much as possible. Registering myself with the Swiss (who represent US interests), connecting with State (to let them know an American was about to go to NK), and a lot of time talking with folks who had gone there before to understand what I was getting myself into. A CNN crew had just come back from PY a few months before I was there and gave me a lot of insider info. I don't think I was surprised by anything by the time I actually arrived in PY with the NK Olympic team :O
I used an extremely reputable operator with excellent credentials and a long track record of success working with other media people going to NK, especially Americans. I knew what I was getting myself into, and it was an acceptable risk. It wasn't a party and while I can imagine randomly deciding to hop a train to PY because I'm bored in Beijing and it's an exotic thrill, it's absolutely reckless. I saw (relatively speaking) a lot of young tourists on Chinese tours around NK who did not seem to appreciate the dangers that are ever present. Luckily for them the Kim Jong Il gov't seemed more interested in shutting down the Korean-Christians traveling with bibles.
There are plenty of dangerous places in the world, I've been to a ton of them (and currently live/work in one), but you just can't up and go to some places without prior planning - and some real world experience. Just a shame.
RE: the obvious story here is not about one young mans risk taking Â
the story to be had here, what is newsworthy and notable, is about a true totalitarian dictatorship - one that still exists in todays world, all that George Orwell dreamed up, all that unmitigated evil, Purely Stalinist, immensely hard to fathom.
We all share your revulsion, but how is it newsworthy? North Korea has been a blight on the world for about 70 years.
that is sort of how it works, the most extreme situations in the world, and in world history, and NK is one of them, one cannot do front page on those every day for so long:
However, -at times- events give one a reason to -revisit-, and to be fair, some news outlets did just that, with opinion pieces.
My complaint though, is the TOP OF THE NEWS FEED, during the initial days, the pieces that made it there were like:
"Otto Warmbier, What is Botulism?"
(USA Today, six days ago, top - top of Google News Feed)
To be fair, even WAPO did a great opinion piece on NK and how evil they are, but one had to dig far beyond the top of the news feed to find it.
This is how we experience news today, the feed, the chow trow as it were, and its been very telling what gets in and what doesn't.
go to North Korea a few years ago? I thought i remembered seeing some pretty amazing pictures from him.
I wonder if he had any issues when he was there.
Excellent memory! I was there in 2008 after the Beijing Olympics. I went with a British operator and stayed in the same hotel he was accused of stealing the poster from. And yes, I had some issues there. I was accused of stealing a butter knife from my hotel room. I was taken off a bus, interrogated and had my suitcase checked before being allowed to leave when they couldn't locate the knife. Unbeknownst to me at the time, I inadvertently swept it into a pile of papers stuffed in my briefcase; now I use it as a letter opener and a reminder to myself how close to MAJOR TROUBLE a dull knife got me.
I've followed this closely and the video sure looks like one of the hallways in a public area of the Yanggakdo hotel, but you certainly can't tell its Otto Warmbier - frankly, it looks a little stilted. The hotel is on an island in the Taedong River in central Pyongyang. At night the draw bridge is pulled up and you're isolated even further. The number of people who would be able to access that area would be extremely, extremely limited.
My first thought when this unfortunate news popped today is that this is how wars start. I'm of the belief that they knew he was ready to go, so they sent him back before he died in captivity. If he dies in DPRK, all hell breaks loose, no questions asked. It could not go unanswered. If he dies here, maybe there's room for reflection. Could be wrong - don't think I am.
I wonder if we will get the other Americans imprisoned there back now; this is horrible news for all, including (and maybe especially) DPRK.
wow. that's a crazy story glow. glad it worked out.
unbelievable that you would have been sent to prison for a butter knife.
go to North Korea a few years ago? I thought i remembered seeing some pretty amazing pictures from him.
I wonder if he had any issues when he was there.
Excellent memory! I was there in 2008 after the Beijing Olympics. I went with a British operator and stayed in the same hotel he was accused of stealing the poster from. And yes, I had some issues there. I was accused of stealing a butter knife from my hotel room. I was taken off a bus, interrogated and had my suitcase checked before being allowed to leave when they couldn't locate the knife. Unbeknownst to me at the time, I inadvertently swept it into a pile of papers stuffed in my briefcase; now I use it as a letter opener and a reminder to myself how close to MAJOR TROUBLE a dull knife got me.
I've followed this closely and the video sure looks like one of the hallways in a public area of the Yanggakdo hotel, but you certainly can't tell its Otto Warmbier - frankly, it looks a little stilted. The hotel is on an island in the Taedong River in central Pyongyang. At night the draw bridge is pulled up and you're isolated even further. The number of people who would be able to access that area would be extremely, extremely limited.
My first thought when this unfortunate news popped today is that this is how wars start. I'm of the belief that they knew he was ready to go, so they sent him back before he died in captivity. If he dies in DPRK, all hell breaks loose, no questions asked. It could not go unanswered. If he dies here, maybe there's room for reflection. Could be wrong - don't think I am.
I wonder if we will get the other Americans imprisoned there back now; this is horrible news for all, including (and maybe especially) DPRK.
wow. that's a crazy story glow. glad it worked out.
unbelievable that you would have been sent to prison for a butter knife.
At least the botulism claim would have some merit in that scenario...
Because it could account for hypoxic brain damage, but be real about the likelihood of that.
And the other point that isn't well understood, is that he was brain dead when he was sent here, and probably so for since whatever the incident was that occured over a year ago. North Korea knew they returning a dead man to us, pretending to be humanitarian about it.
stories have been done, but, even when given a good excuse, warmbler situation, to put this into the actual top of the vaunted News Feed, no, 'botulism' instead, than how the young man is doing, but still nothing on the work/death/though control camps.
At least, not in the News Feed.
I mean, Washington Post, all that, yada yada every day, all day, but not this subject.
You can always make changes to your News Feed.
And I see a number of WP stories discussing how bad NK is, describing it as a genuine Orwellian dystopia, recounting prisoners being punished for eating rats as 'theft of state property'.
Idiotsavant: I see your point, but respectfully disagree. Â
IMV, the opinion pages are the right place to address a subject (totalitarianism in North Korea) where very little has changed in 70 years. I guess you can argue that the absence of change is a story in itself, but that contorts the definition of "news" a bit.
The more newsworthy aspects of the North Korea story involve the regime's ability to project power through its missile and nuclear programs, the ebb and flow of tensions along the border, and the efforts of other countries to contain the threat. I'm far more worried about that stuff than how the regime treats foreigners who visit by choice.
Likely trauma or torture
Maybe we can rough up a few more of their diplomats....
If that even happened. Since it's North Korea, who the hell knows?
No idea why any Westerner would even think about going to NK now. Not that I would have understood it before, but since they pretty much straight up murdered this kid, it would be even more baffling now.
Likely trauma or torture
Or he did get botulism, vomited, aspirated it and was effectively suffocated by his own vomit. I'm sure he wasn't attended to vigilantly by the DPNK guards....
They have a grainy video of an unknown person. There's absolutely no way to tell if it actually was Otto Warmbier.
Was spending his winter break in China, had the opportunity to take a NYE trip to NK.
He was on a trip to China and decided to take a brief side trip to NK.
He was in China and saw an add for a tour of North Korea that was "safe" for tourists. They accused him of stealing a poster from the hotel, released video that never showed the face of the person doing it.
We will never really understand those guys.
My bet, he probably was on life support (and had been for a while) when he arrived in the US. The Koreans gave him back as such only confirm it was futile and pull the plug.....
What does NK care what we think about where or why he died. Its not like were going to do anything about it.
Quote:
trying to understand why NK decided to send him back in this state? If he died in jail couldn't they have made up the cause?
We will never really understand those guys.
My bet, he probably was on life support (and had been for a while) when he arrived in the US. The Koreans gave him back as such only confirm it was futile and pull the plug.....
I suspect this is right. He was an expense to them and they either needed to pull the plug (or worse, euthanize him if it wasnt a "pull the plug" situation) or send him home. And ultimately decided to be slightly more humane at the end.
n comment 13504223 WideRight said:
Yes. Pure evil. Remember this is a "ruler" who kills his staff with anti aircraft or other large guns. So why care about a foreigner, especially from the U.S.? He's just a tool to use to make us angry. RIP. God bless. Prayers to him and his family and friends.
And this isn't a 1-0ff. They did not get anyone released from either Cuba or Iran despite favorable deals to both countries.
I'm not trying to make this political by any means, but these are major facts of this news story.
They do it in order to extort favorable concessions on money and food as there system is failing.
This is how the regime has propped itself up.
In comment 13504236 AcidTest said:
Quote:
their chosen means of poking the bear. Sad news.
Yes. Pure evil. Remember this is a "ruler" who kills his staff with anti aircraft or other large guns. So why care about a foreigner, especially from the U.S.? He's just a tool to use to make us angry. RIP. God bless. Prayers to him and his family and friends.
And this isn't a 1-0ff. They did not get anyone released from either Cuba or Iran despite favorable deals to both countries.
I'm not trying to make this political by any means, but these are major facts of this news story.
You say you arent, but then we see your words
Nobody is mentioning it because it can't be discussed here.
This took political means
We have people on here rightly blaming the North Korean government, which is political
We have people on here blaming our governments travel policy, which is political
The previous inaction by the prior administration in its 11 months on the case is a part of this story and deserves to be mentioned, no matter inconvenient that fact may be
I did not attempt to make it "political" by adding to those facts or putting them in comparison to other administrations
This is certainly not the Obama Administrations fault. That lies with North Korea alone
But concerned citizens have a right to ask what was done and what was not done and why.U
I wonder if he had any issues when he was there.
You have no idea what efforts the US made to bring this boy home. Did the last admin get Warbier freed and home and healthy? No, it did not. That simply cant be the standard we measure our administrations by, lets we just encourage our leaders to bow to hostage takers in ever instance. By the same token, the fact that the last admin brought home the people described above should not just be accepted as a great diplomatic fete. You must evaluate the give and the get in these deals.
This took political means
We have people on here rightly blaming the North Korean government, which is political
We have people on here blaming our governments travel policy, which is political
The previous inaction by the prior administration in its 11 months on the case is a part of this story and deserves to be mentioned, no matter inconvenient that fact may be
I did not attempt to make it "political" by adding to those facts or putting them in comparison to other administrations
This is certainly not the Obama Administrations fault. That lies with North Korea alone
But concerned citizens have a right to ask what was done and what was not done and why.U
There is a place for concerned citizens to discuss what should have been done. Tens of thousands of them. Here isn't one of them.
What does NK care what we think about where or why he died. Its not like were going to do anything about it.
Wrong.
Anyone should be able to go anywhere they want. Yes even NK. Use common sense. No need to add laws saying where we can and can not go.
And this isn't a 1-0ff. They did not get anyone released from either Cuba or Iran despite favorable deals to both countries.
I'm not trying to make this political by any means, but these are major facts of this news story.
This is what's a little scary about the future of Democracy in this country. The Internet is so full of Fake News.....you don't know what to believe. Somebody says "Obama didn't do anything for any prisoners anywhere." And that idea is out there. Then Deej gives a list of what Obama actually did do for Hostages.
It's like that idiot who "read on the internet" that Hillary was running a child sex ring out of a pizzeria in Washington DC. So he drove up there, and started shooting up a crowded Pizza Joint.
A functioning Democracy requires a well-informed public. Not all this Alex Jones baloney. You can't run every sentence thru Snopes.
I mean, it seems like everyone blithely prats around assuming "if I were around during Hitler I would have -done something-"
I mean, we all wish that, but, what would you have really done big guy? Nothing probably. Maybe at least shout it from the mountaintops...but now? All these years later,... North Korea....mostly silence.
And Stalin - to understand the whole nature of really living in a totalitarian society...where you cannot even have your own THOUGHTs, make art the wrong way, listen to the wrong music, talk out loud in front of almost anyone, and its torture and death.
Stalins work camps:
-working on a handful of corn a day, getting beat down randomly, even murdered by the guards, and without any recourse at all, or for any reason, being murdered for simply having any identity, any ethnicity, any nationality, any theory, other than 'happy state peon' it is all happening in North Korea right now.
When they first sent Warmbler home, there was a slew of big media headlines "Warmbler Released - What is Botulism?"
- Yeah, Right, great job people.
... and if you do, your family should have no expectation that we will sacrifice the national interest to get you home.
I mean, it seems like everyone blithely prats around assuming "if I were around during Hitler I would have -done something-"
I mean, we all wish that, but, what would you have really done big guy? Nothing probably. Maybe at least shout it from the mountaintops...but now? All these years later,... North Korea....mostly silence.
And Stalin - to understand the whole nature of really living in a totalitarian society...where you cannot even have your own THOUGHTs, make art the wrong way, listen to the wrong music, talk out loud in front of almost anyone, and its torture and death.
Stalins work camps:
-working on a handful of corn a day, getting beat down randomly, even murdered by the guards, and without any recourse at all, or for any reason, being murdered for simply having any identity, any ethnicity, any nationality, any theory, other than 'happy state peon' it is all happening in North Korea right now.
When they first sent Warmbler home, there was a slew of big media headlines "Warmbler Released - What is Botulism?"
- Yeah, Right, great job people.
Is your complaint that the media has not killed the N.K. dictator? Wasnt that the plot of that James Franco movie?
And while the news of Warmbier is making headlines here in the U.S.—it’s only a small reminder of the darkness and brutality thousands of North Koreans are experiencing in hard labor camps under the regime of Kim Jong-un. Right now, an estimated 120,000 North Koreans are being held in prison camps that the head of a U.N. inquiry panel says are “strikingly similar” to the Nazi atrocities in World War II.
While any sort of free-thinking in North Korea is harshly punished, participating in any religious practice—Christianity in particular—results in being sent to one of these prison camps where most end up dying. Here are three things you need to know about what life for a Christian is like in a prison camp, and how we can be praying for our persecuted family in North Korea.
FOOD IS SCARCE
Hyuk Kim, who fled North Korea after three years in a prison camp, said his daily ration was a handful of cornmeal and a few dozen small beans. Others have reported even less. Because of this one of the most common causes of death in a North Korean prison camp are side effects of malnutrition.
Prisoners who work in the fields may attempt to eat grass or leaves. On a good day, a prisoner may catch a rat but would have to eat it raw as the smell from cooking it could alert the prison guards. A lucky few end up on kitchen duty and can sneak scraps of food; however, those caught doing this will be beaten mercilessly.
THE LABOR IS BRUTAL
There are dozens of different jobs prisoners may be assigned but they all share some common traits: prisoners are expected to perform physically grueling tasks for hours on end with no rest. All while starving to death.
Kenneth Bae, a missionary imprisoned in a camp and later released, described working long hours manually tilling rocky soil in a field. Bae would routinely lose dozens of pounds, be sent to hospitals to recover, and then be sent back to camps. Most simply work until they die.
FREE THOUGHT IS FORBIDDEN
Prisoners are forbidden from any obvious act of religious faith. Even secret prayer meetings are rare as it’s impossible to know who to trust. One of the few ways to receive special privileges is to report on fellow prisoners. Relationships are so fragile some don’t trust their own families.
''
At least, not in the News Feed.
I mean, Washington Post, all that, yada yada every day, all day, but not this subject.
I wonder if he had any issues when he was there.
Excellent memory! I was there in 2008 after the Beijing Olympics. I went with a British operator and stayed in the same hotel he was accused of stealing the poster from. And yes, I had some issues there. I was accused of stealing a butter knife from my hotel room. I was taken off a bus, interrogated and had my suitcase checked before being allowed to leave when they couldn't locate the knife. Unbeknownst to me at the time, I inadvertently swept it into a pile of papers stuffed in my briefcase; now I use it as a letter opener and a reminder to myself how close to MAJOR TROUBLE a dull knife got me.
I've followed this closely and the video sure looks like one of the hallways in a public area of the Yanggakdo hotel, but you certainly can't tell its Otto Warmbier - frankly, it looks a little stilted. The hotel is on an island in the Taedong River in central Pyongyang. At night the draw bridge is pulled up and you're isolated even further. The number of people who would be able to access that area would be extremely, extremely limited.
My first thought when this unfortunate news popped today is that this is how wars start. I'm of the belief that they knew he was ready to go, so they sent him back before he died in captivity. If he dies in DPRK, all hell breaks loose, no questions asked. It could not go unanswered. If he dies here, maybe there's room for reflection. Could be wrong - don't think I am.
I wonder if we will get the other Americans imprisoned there back now; this is horrible news for all, including (and maybe especially) DPRK.
Quote:
That the Obama Administration told the family to be "patient" and"keep quiet" in the 11 months they were on office and he was there?
And this isn't a 1-0ff. They did not get anyone released from either Cuba or Iran despite favorable deals to both countries.
I'm not trying to make this political by any means, but these are major facts of this news story.
This is what's a little scary about the future of Democracy in this country. The Internet is so full of Fake News.....you don't know what to believe. Somebody says "Obama didn't do anything for any prisoners anywhere." And that idea is out there. Then Deej gives a list of what Obama actually did do for Hostages.
It's like that idiot who "read on the internet" that Hillary was running a child sex ring out of a pizzeria in Washington DC. So he drove up there, and started shooting up a crowded Pizza Joint.
A functioning Democracy requires a well-informed public. Not all this Alex Jones baloney. You can't run every sentence thru Snopes.
I dont think this is an internet issue. People just assume that because they dont know of something that the thing must not exist. Im sure there is a fancy term for it.
Thus, the post that the last admin did not secure the release of prisoners from Cuba or Iran because the poster is unaware that they did.
Or the insidious, how come Muslims never denounce terrorism... from people who simply fail to do any research before speaking.
However, the 53 prisoners that were freed in Cuba by Obama were not American prisoners but Cuban dissidents. While awesome; that the Obama Admin did that, its not the point I was making
But I did look it up again and Obama did get 1 American prisoner freed in Alan Gross but had to free 3 Cubans in America to do so.
You are right about Iran and I had forgotten about the controversial prisoner swap and money deal in Iran.
In the end, I will say I was wrong to bring up the Iran/Cuba part into my point about Warmbier. 1- i was wrong but 2- it is unrelated to the point.
I will stand by my point that how the Obama Admin handled Warmbier is a legit point to be discussed. It was one of the first things brought up by his parents.
But right now, you couldn't pay me to visit. With tensions escalating between the U.S. and NK, even before this kid came back half dead, I don't think the North Koreans might even wait for an excuse to grab an American tourist on a vacation and use them as a bargaining chip in their poor excuse for statecraft.
And as previously stated, Deej was mostly right but not completely.
I would like to avoid discussing that end of this because 1- i already admitted i was wrong and 2- its not that relevant to Warmbier
How would any of this make me an "Alex Jones"? jeez, everyone gets so extreme. You have no idea my political strand. I am highly informed on what's going on but not infallible as I already admitted to.
I was pretty cautious about how I worded y statement to overtly avoid a direct criticism and comparison about the Obama Admin but for bringing it up Im "Alex Jones"?
Most of my point was to bring up how the Obama Admin handled this and one benefit of that is to help dispel certain untruths, myths or overhype's, etc.
I not know if if Obama Admin didright or wrong here, thats the point but sweeping it under the rug isnt gonna help and will lead to false facts.
A man died here. And it appears to be some questions as to how it was handled. I think its fair to ask some questions.
In comment 13504334 Named Later said:
Quote:
That the Obama Administration told the family to be "patient" and"keep quiet" in the 11 months they were on office and he was there?
And this isn't a 1-0ff. They did not get anyone released from either Cuba or Iran despite favorable deals to both countries.
I'm not trying to make this political by any means, but these are major facts of this news story.
This is what's a little scary about the future of Democracy in this country. The Internet is so full of Fake News.....you don't know what to believe. Somebody says "Obama didn't do anything for any prisoners anywhere." And that idea is out there. Then Deej gives a list of what Obama actually did do for Hostages.
It's like that idiot who "read on the internet" that Hillary was running a child sex ring out of a pizzeria in Washington DC. So he drove up there, and started shooting up a crowded Pizza Joint.
A functioning Democracy requires a well-informed public. Not all this Alex Jones baloney. You can't run every sentence thru Snopes.
n comment 13504223 WideRight said:
Quote:
only so he could "pull the plug" on father's day.
The kind of nonsense that is dead on. It is a tragic situation...
However, the 53 prisoners that were freed in Cuba by Obama were not American prisoners but Cuban dissidents. While awesome; that the Obama Admin did that, its not the point I was making
But I did look it up again and Obama did get 1 American prisoner freed in Alan Gross but had to free 3 Cubans in America to do so.
You are right about Iran and I had forgotten about the controversial prisoner swap and money deal in Iran.
In the end, I will say I was wrong to bring up the Iran/Cuba part into my point about Warmbier. 1- i was wrong but 2- it is unrelated to the point.
I will stand by my point that how the Obama Admin handled Warmbier is a legit point to be discussed. It was one of the first things brought up by his parents.
Other than Gross, who are the Americans imprisoned in Cuba you are talking about. I just looked quickly on Cuba and didnt see any identified.
Your point on Obama/Warmbier without the incorrect Iran/Cuba argument is this:
"That the Obama Administration told the family to be "patient" and"keep quiet" in the 11 months they were on office and he was there"
So explain your argument. If they had not kept quiet, what would have happened? The North Koreans would be shamed into releasing this kid? Come, the fuck, on.
You have literally no idea what levers the last admin pulled to try to get OW released, nor do you know what other negotiations were going on. What if the NKs were trying to leverage Warmbier for concessions on sanctions and other weighty issues (they almost certainly were)? Can you tell me the details of those negotiations?
So, whatever "leverage" that you rampantly speculate ondoesnt seem to be anything of importance
In comment 13504415 Deej said:
Quote:
Is not about the Obama Admin but Warmbier
However, the 53 prisoners that were freed in Cuba by Obama were not American prisoners but Cuban dissidents. While awesome; that the Obama Admin did that, its not the point I was making
But I did look it up again and Obama did get 1 American prisoner freed in Alan Gross but had to free 3 Cubans in America to do so.
You are right about Iran and I had forgotten about the controversial prisoner swap and money deal in Iran.
In the end, I will say I was wrong to bring up the Iran/Cuba part into my point about Warmbier. 1- i was wrong but 2- it is unrelated to the point.
I will stand by my point that how the Obama Admin handled Warmbier is a legit point to be discussed. It was one of the first things brought up by his parents.
Other than Gross, who are the Americans imprisoned in Cuba you are talking about. I just looked quickly on Cuba and didnt see any identified.
Your point on Obama/Warmbier without the incorrect Iran/Cuba argument is this:
"That the Obama Administration told the family to be "patient" and"keep quiet" in the 11 months they were on office and he was there"
So explain your argument. If they had not kept quiet, what would have happened? The North Koreans would be shamed into releasing this kid? Come, the fuck, on.
You have literally no idea what levers the last admin pulled to try to get OW released, nor do you know what other negotiations were going on. What if the NKs were trying to leverage Warmbier for concessions on sanctions and other weighty issues (they almost certainly were)? Can you tell me the details of those negotiations?
Airliners.net has trip reports from members that have visited the hermit kingdom.
The Ryugyong hotel has always fascinated me. I can't imagine there aren't a thousand squatters in that place.
Epic trip to North Korea - ( New Window )
So, whatever "leverage" that you rampantly speculate ondoesnt seem to be anything of importance
Im not the one criticizing how the admin handled the situation with basically no information. That's you.
You made an assumption that the last admin didnt do enough because they told the family to not lead a public charge on this and because the admin secured no prisoner releases from Cuba and Iran. You were wrong about that but you're sticking with your premise, based on basically nothing. That's bad faith argument. Why dont you tell us how you were right about the Eli Manning trade again?
Who are the other Americans in Cuba that you think need to be released?
But right now, you couldn't pay me to visit. With tensions escalating between the U.S. and NK, even before this kid came back half dead, I don't think the North Koreans might even wait for an excuse to grab an American tourist on a vacation and use them as a bargaining chip in their poor excuse for statecraft.
Wise choice. Do you really want to risk busting rocks in a NK prison camp because you didn't bow down long enough to one of the statues of Dear Leader or something stupid like that?
Yes he was in a coma for about a year.
Quote:
I decided against it because it seemed like most of the reports from folks who had gone were too similar. I knew I'd be lead around by minders and only allowed to see what they wanted me to see, so ultimately, it didn't feel like it was worth the money. If I ever had taken the time to learn Korean, that might change things.
But right now, you couldn't pay me to visit. With tensions escalating between the U.S. and NK, even before this kid came back half dead, I don't think the North Koreans might even wait for an excuse to grab an American tourist on a vacation and use them as a bargaining chip in their poor excuse for statecraft.
Wise choice. Do you really want to risk busting rocks in a NK prison camp because you didn't bow down long enough to one of the statues of Dear Leader or something stupid like that?
Absolutely. They don't need a reason to arrest you, beat you, or make you smash rocks. NK is THEIR world. If you want to meet it face to face and run the risk of what happened to Otto, that's on you.
What does NK care what we think about where or why he died. Its not like were going to do anything about it.
Uh, news flash, we still live in America where we are free (for now) to travel where we want, no matter how ill-advised.
Quote:
It should be illegal to travel there, but its not. Its just advised against.
What does NK care what we think about where or why he died. Its not like were going to do anything about it.
Uh, news flash, we still live in America where we are free (for now) to travel where we want, no matter how ill-advised.
Make it illegal? No. But I would certainly support a statement that if you choose to go to North Korea you're on your own. No State Department aid. No quid pro quo. If there's a problem it's strictly your problem.
Really, you would rather have more laws telling you where you can and cannot travel? Zero blame goes to our government for this. Any traveler should be acutely aware, that traveling to DPRK is super risky. 15 years of hard labor for allegedly stealing a poster? That govt is looking for an excuse to stick it to the US, and is willing to use innocent citizens as pawns.
DennyInDenville, A Jones does a whole lot more than ask questions. He makes emphatic statements masked as facts, solely designed to rile you up. If you buy into that BS you are a fool. I have no desire to waste my time on conspiracy theories. There is enough challenge to deal with real issues.
While I would have loved for Obama to have flexed his might and said "We are the US. Give us back our boy NOW," that's not exactly how it works.
There is so much that we don't know about NOrth Korea and about how the the US State Department and DOD is trying to handle the unstable dictator and his rockets pointed at Seoul.
More than that, between North Korea, Russia, Iran, and all of the countries in the ME not doing enough to root out barbaric jihadis, how spread out can our military possibly get?
Uh, are you f*cking serious?
Quote:
go to North Korea a few years ago? I thought i remembered seeing some pretty amazing pictures from him.
I wonder if he had any issues when he was there.
Excellent memory! I was there in 2008 after the Beijing Olympics. I went with a British operator and stayed in the same hotel he was accused of stealing the poster from. And yes, I had some issues there. I was accused of stealing a butter knife from my hotel room. I was taken off a bus, interrogated and had my suitcase checked before being allowed to leave when they couldn't locate the knife. Unbeknownst to me at the time, I inadvertently swept it into a pile of papers stuffed in my briefcase; now I use it as a letter opener and a reminder to myself how close to MAJOR TROUBLE a dull knife got me.
I've followed this closely and the video sure looks like one of the hallways in a public area of the Yanggakdo hotel, but you certainly can't tell its Otto Warmbier - frankly, it looks a little stilted. The hotel is on an island in the Taedong River in central Pyongyang. At night the draw bridge is pulled up and you're isolated even further. The number of people who would be able to access that area would be extremely, extremely limited.
My first thought when this unfortunate news popped today is that this is how wars start. I'm of the belief that they knew he was ready to go, so they sent him back before he died in captivity. If he dies in DPRK, all hell breaks loose, no questions asked. It could not go unanswered. If he dies here, maybe there's room for reflection. Could be wrong - don't think I am.
I wonder if we will get the other Americans imprisoned there back now; this is horrible news for all, including (and maybe especially) DPRK.
Glowrider, you got more guts than me. No chance in hell I'd go to NK.
Really, you would drink with a man who tortured the heartbroken parents of the sandy hook children. That is not forgivable!
My heart goes out to his parents. This isn't a major international incident - not even close, and nothing will be gained by treating it as one. It's just a horrible, crushing loss for one family.
My heart goes out to his parents. This isn't a major international incident - not even close, and nothing will be gained by treating it as one. It's just a horrible, crushing loss for one family.
This, exactly. I'm sure when I was his age I did some idiotic things along the same lines that could have gotten me killed, just that I was on the better side of the odds than Otto was. Damn shame that he had to go out like that.
My heart goes out to his parents. This isn't a major international incident - not even close, and nothing will be gained by treating it as one. It's just a horrible, crushing loss for one family.
Then, a much smaller sub story, but also worthwhile, the absolute loss of moral center on the part of some of our fellow Americans, including media and entertainment pundits, who seem unable to face the true story.
Including some:
"Mindless Moral Relativism on a Staggering Scale"
(never thought I would post a link to this particular news and opinion source, but this guy has a point)
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/448796/otto-warmbier-lefts-hate-problem
I spent almost a year with Visa applications being granted and revoked multiple times. During that period I spent a great deal of time de-risking as much as possible. Registering myself with the Swiss (who represent US interests), connecting with State (to let them know an American was about to go to NK), and a lot of time talking with folks who had gone there before to understand what I was getting myself into. A CNN crew had just come back from PY a few months before I was there and gave me a lot of insider info. I don't think I was surprised by anything by the time I actually arrived in PY with the NK Olympic team :O
I used an extremely reputable operator with excellent credentials and a long track record of success working with other media people going to NK, especially Americans. I knew what I was getting myself into, and it was an acceptable risk. It wasn't a party and while I can imagine randomly deciding to hop a train to PY because I'm bored in Beijing and it's an exotic thrill, it's absolutely reckless. I saw (relatively speaking) a lot of young tourists on Chinese tours around NK who did not seem to appreciate the dangers that are ever present. Luckily for them the Kim Jong Il gov't seemed more interested in shutting down the Korean-Christians traveling with bibles.
There are plenty of dangerous places in the world, I've been to a ton of them (and currently live/work in one), but you just can't up and go to some places without prior planning - and some real world experience. Just a shame.
However, -at times- events give one a reason to -revisit-, and to be fair, some news outlets did just that, with opinion pieces.
My complaint though, is the TOP OF THE NEWS FEED, during the initial days, the pieces that made it there were like:
"Otto Warmbier, What is Botulism?"
(USA Today, six days ago, top - top of Google News Feed)
To be fair, even WAPO did a great opinion piece on NK and how evil they are, but one had to dig far beyond the top of the news feed to find it.
This is how we experience news today, the feed, the chow trow as it were, and its been very telling what gets in and what doesn't.
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go to North Korea a few years ago? I thought i remembered seeing some pretty amazing pictures from him.
I wonder if he had any issues when he was there.
Excellent memory! I was there in 2008 after the Beijing Olympics. I went with a British operator and stayed in the same hotel he was accused of stealing the poster from. And yes, I had some issues there. I was accused of stealing a butter knife from my hotel room. I was taken off a bus, interrogated and had my suitcase checked before being allowed to leave when they couldn't locate the knife. Unbeknownst to me at the time, I inadvertently swept it into a pile of papers stuffed in my briefcase; now I use it as a letter opener and a reminder to myself how close to MAJOR TROUBLE a dull knife got me.
I've followed this closely and the video sure looks like one of the hallways in a public area of the Yanggakdo hotel, but you certainly can't tell its Otto Warmbier - frankly, it looks a little stilted. The hotel is on an island in the Taedong River in central Pyongyang. At night the draw bridge is pulled up and you're isolated even further. The number of people who would be able to access that area would be extremely, extremely limited.
My first thought when this unfortunate news popped today is that this is how wars start. I'm of the belief that they knew he was ready to go, so they sent him back before he died in captivity. If he dies in DPRK, all hell breaks loose, no questions asked. It could not go unanswered. If he dies here, maybe there's room for reflection. Could be wrong - don't think I am.
I wonder if we will get the other Americans imprisoned there back now; this is horrible news for all, including (and maybe especially) DPRK.
wow. that's a crazy story glow. glad it worked out.
unbelievable that you would have been sent to prison for a butter knife.
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In comment 13504284 B in ALB said:
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go to North Korea a few years ago? I thought i remembered seeing some pretty amazing pictures from him.
I wonder if he had any issues when he was there.
Excellent memory! I was there in 2008 after the Beijing Olympics. I went with a British operator and stayed in the same hotel he was accused of stealing the poster from. And yes, I had some issues there. I was accused of stealing a butter knife from my hotel room. I was taken off a bus, interrogated and had my suitcase checked before being allowed to leave when they couldn't locate the knife. Unbeknownst to me at the time, I inadvertently swept it into a pile of papers stuffed in my briefcase; now I use it as a letter opener and a reminder to myself how close to MAJOR TROUBLE a dull knife got me.
I've followed this closely and the video sure looks like one of the hallways in a public area of the Yanggakdo hotel, but you certainly can't tell its Otto Warmbier - frankly, it looks a little stilted. The hotel is on an island in the Taedong River in central Pyongyang. At night the draw bridge is pulled up and you're isolated even further. The number of people who would be able to access that area would be extremely, extremely limited.
My first thought when this unfortunate news popped today is that this is how wars start. I'm of the belief that they knew he was ready to go, so they sent him back before he died in captivity. If he dies in DPRK, all hell breaks loose, no questions asked. It could not go unanswered. If he dies here, maybe there's room for reflection. Could be wrong - don't think I am.
I wonder if we will get the other Americans imprisoned there back now; this is horrible news for all, including (and maybe especially) DPRK.
wow. that's a crazy story glow. glad it worked out.
unbelievable that you would have been sent to prison for a butter knife.
At least the botulism claim would have some merit in that scenario...
And the other point that isn't well understood, is that he was brain dead when he was sent here, and probably so for since whatever the incident was that occured over a year ago. North Korea knew they returning a dead man to us, pretending to be humanitarian about it.
At least, not in the News Feed.
I mean, Washington Post, all that, yada yada every day, all day, but not this subject.
You can always make changes to your News Feed.
And I see a number of WP stories discussing how bad NK is, describing it as a genuine Orwellian dystopia, recounting prisoners being punished for eating rats as 'theft of state property'.
The more newsworthy aspects of the North Korea story involve the regime's ability to project power through its missile and nuclear programs, the ebb and flow of tensions along the border, and the efforts of other countries to contain the threat. I'm far more worried about that stuff than how the regime treats foreigners who visit by choice.