BBC Breaking News& #8207;Verified account @BBCBreaking 3m3 minutes ago
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Otto Warmbier, US student held in North Korea, has died after returning home in a coma, family says
If that even happened. Since it's North Korea, who the hell knows?
No idea why any Westerner would even think about going to NK now. Not that I would have understood it before, but since they pretty much straight up murdered this kid, it would be even more baffling now.
Or he did get botulism, vomited, aspirated it and was effectively suffocated by his own vomit. I'm sure he wasn't attended to vigilantly by the DPNK guards....
He was in China and saw an add for a tour of North Korea that was "safe" for tourists. They accused him of stealing a poster from the hotel, released video that never showed the face of the person doing it.
trying to understand why NK decided to send him back in this state? If he died in jail couldn't they have made up the cause?
We will never really understand those guys.
My bet, he probably was on life support (and had been for a while) when he arrived in the US. The Koreans gave him back as such only confirm it was futile and pull the plug.....
Honestly the partial blame can be put on our government Â
trying to understand why NK decided to send him back in this state? If he died in jail couldn't they have made up the cause?
We will never really understand those guys.
My bet, he probably was on life support (and had been for a while) when he arrived in the US. The Koreans gave him back as such only confirm it was futile and pull the plug.....
I suspect this is right. He was an expense to them and they either needed to pull the plug (or worse, euthanize him if it wasnt a "pull the plug" situation) or send him home. And ultimately decided to be slightly more humane at the end.
Yes. Pure evil. Remember this is a "ruler" who kills his staff with anti aircraft or other large guns. So why care about a foreigner, especially from the U.S.? He's just a tool to use to make us angry. RIP. God bless. Prayers to him and his family and friends.
Yes. Pure evil. Remember this is a "ruler" who kills his staff with anti aircraft or other large guns. So why care about a foreigner, especially from the U.S.? He's just a tool to use to make us angry. RIP. God bless. Prayers to him and his family and friends.
The Warmbier family did not negotiate with the North Korean government themselves.
This took political means
We have people on here rightly blaming the North Korean government, which is political
We have people on here blaming our governments travel policy, which is political
The previous inaction by the prior administration in its 11 months on the case is a part of this story and deserves to be mentioned, no matter inconvenient that fact may be
I did not attempt to make it "political" by adding to those facts or putting them in comparison to other administrations
This is certainly not the Obama Administrations fault. That lies with North Korea alone
But concerned citizens have a right to ask what was done and what was not done and why.U
Deserves what he got from that scumbag country for what he did, but Jesus Christ....You have to know where you are when you do dumb shit like this in a foreign country, especially a toilet like this one .
all your premises are incorrect. Cuba freed 53 Americans in one swoop under the last admin, plus there was at least one other person freed. Check the news. Iran freed the sailors they snatched up. Iran freed 4 hostages in a much debated apparent exchange for cash the US had frozen. The last admin was not silent about Warmbier. In fact, it imposed new sanctions they day after his sentencing.
You have no idea what efforts the US made to bring this boy home. Did the last admin get Warbier freed and home and healthy? No, it did not. That simply cant be the standard we measure our administrations by, lets we just encourage our leaders to bow to hostage takers in ever instance. By the same token, the fact that the last admin brought home the people described above should not just be accepted as a great diplomatic fete. You must evaluate the give and the get in these deals.
The Warmbier family did not negotiate with the North Korean government themselves.
This took political means
We have people on here rightly blaming the North Korean government, which is political
We have people on here blaming our governments travel policy, which is political
The previous inaction by the prior administration in its 11 months on the case is a part of this story and deserves to be mentioned, no matter inconvenient that fact may be
I did not attempt to make it "political" by adding to those facts or putting them in comparison to other administrations
This is certainly not the Obama Administrations fault. That lies with North Korea alone
But concerned citizens have a right to ask what was done and what was not done and why.U
There is a place for concerned citizens to discuss what should have been done. Tens of thousands of them. Here isn't one of them.
That the Obama Administration told the family to be "patient" and"keep quiet" in the 11 months they were on office and he was there?
And this isn't a 1-0ff. They did not get anyone released from either Cuba or Iran despite favorable deals to both countries.
I'm not trying to make this political by any means, but these are major facts of this news story.
This is what's a little scary about the future of Democracy in this country. The Internet is so full of Fake News.....you don't know what to believe. Somebody says "Obama didn't do anything for any prisoners anywhere." And that idea is out there. Then Deej gives a list of what Obama actually did do for Hostages.
It's like that idiot who "read on the internet" that Hillary was running a child sex ring out of a pizzeria in Washington DC. So he drove up there, and started shooting up a crowded Pizza Joint.
A functioning Democracy requires a well-informed public. Not all this Alex Jones baloney. You can't run every sentence thru Snopes.
how little the media has done to cover North Korea.
I mean, it seems like everyone blithely prats around assuming "if I were around during Hitler I would have -done something-"
I mean, we all wish that, but, what would you have really done big guy? Nothing probably. Maybe at least shout it from the mountaintops...but now? All these years later,... North Korea....mostly silence.
And Stalin - to understand the whole nature of really living in a totalitarian society...where you cannot even have your own THOUGHTs, make art the wrong way, listen to the wrong music, talk out loud in front of almost anyone, and its torture and death.
Stalins work camps:
-working on a handful of corn a day, getting beat down randomly, even murdered by the guards, and without any recourse at all, or for any reason, being murdered for simply having any identity, any ethnicity, any nationality, any theory, other than 'happy state peon' it is all happening in North Korea right now.
When they first sent Warmbler home, there was a slew of big media headlines "Warmbler Released - What is Botulism?"
how little the media has done to cover North Korea.
I mean, it seems like everyone blithely prats around assuming "if I were around during Hitler I would have -done something-"
I mean, we all wish that, but, what would you have really done big guy? Nothing probably. Maybe at least shout it from the mountaintops...but now? All these years later,... North Korea....mostly silence.
And Stalin - to understand the whole nature of really living in a totalitarian society...where you cannot even have your own THOUGHTs, make art the wrong way, listen to the wrong music, talk out loud in front of almost anyone, and its torture and death.
Stalins work camps:
-working on a handful of corn a day, getting beat down randomly, even murdered by the guards, and without any recourse at all, or for any reason, being murdered for simply having any identity, any ethnicity, any nationality, any theory, other than 'happy state peon' it is all happening in North Korea right now.
When they first sent Warmbler home, there was a slew of big media headlines "Warmbler Released - What is Botulism?"
- Yeah, Right, great job people.
Is your complaint that the media has not killed the N.K. dictator? Wasnt that the plot of that James Franco movie?
''Otto Warmbier was evacuated from a North Korean prison this week. Warmbier, a student from Cincinnati, visited North Korea in January of 2016. He was arrested for trying to steal a propaganda sign in his hotel and sentenced to 15 years hard labor. Details about his release are still unfolding, but his parents report that he’s very ill and in a coma.
And while the news of Warmbier is making headlines here in the U.S.—it’s only a small reminder of the darkness and brutality thousands of North Koreans are experiencing in hard labor camps under the regime of Kim Jong-un. Right now, an estimated 120,000 North Koreans are being held in prison camps that the head of a U.N. inquiry panel says are “strikingly similar” to the Nazi atrocities in World War II.
While any sort of free-thinking in North Korea is harshly punished, participating in any religious practice—Christianity in particular—results in being sent to one of these prison camps where most end up dying. Here are three things you need to know about what life for a Christian is like in a prison camp, and how we can be praying for our persecuted family in North Korea.
FOOD IS SCARCE
Hyuk Kim, who fled North Korea after three years in a prison camp, said his daily ration was a handful of cornmeal and a few dozen small beans. Others have reported even less. Because of this one of the most common causes of death in a North Korean prison camp are side effects of malnutrition.
Prisoners who work in the fields may attempt to eat grass or leaves. On a good day, a prisoner may catch a rat but would have to eat it raw as the smell from cooking it could alert the prison guards. A lucky few end up on kitchen duty and can sneak scraps of food; however, those caught doing this will be beaten mercilessly.
THE LABOR IS BRUTAL
There are dozens of different jobs prisoners may be assigned but they all share some common traits: prisoners are expected to perform physically grueling tasks for hours on end with no rest. All while starving to death.
Kenneth Bae, a missionary imprisoned in a camp and later released, described working long hours manually tilling rocky soil in a field. Bae would routinely lose dozens of pounds, be sent to hospitals to recover, and then be sent back to camps. Most simply work until they die.
FREE THOUGHT IS FORBIDDEN
Prisoners are forbidden from any obvious act of religious faith. Even secret prayer meetings are rare as it’s impossible to know who to trust. One of the few ways to receive special privileges is to report on fellow prisoners. Relationships are so fragile some don’t trust their own families.
''
stories have been done, but, even when given a good excuse, warmbler situation, to put this into the actual top of the vaunted News Feed, no, 'botulism' instead, than how the young man is doing, but still nothing on the work/death/though control camps.
At least, not in the News Feed.
I mean, Washington Post, all that, yada yada every day, all day, but not this subject.
go to North Korea a few years ago? I thought i remembered seeing some pretty amazing pictures from him.
I wonder if he had any issues when he was there.
Excellent memory! I was there in 2008 after the Beijing Olympics. I went with a British operator and stayed in the same hotel he was accused of stealing the poster from. And yes, I had some issues there. I was accused of stealing a butter knife from my hotel room. I was taken off a bus, interrogated and had my suitcase checked before being allowed to leave when they couldn't locate the knife. Unbeknownst to me at the time, I inadvertently swept it into a pile of papers stuffed in my briefcase; now I use it as a letter opener and a reminder to myself how close to MAJOR TROUBLE a dull knife got me.
I've followed this closely and the video sure looks like one of the hallways in a public area of the Yanggakdo hotel, but you certainly can't tell its Otto Warmbier - frankly, it looks a little stilted. The hotel is on an island in the Taedong River in central Pyongyang. At night the draw bridge is pulled up and you're isolated even further. The number of people who would be able to access that area would be extremely, extremely limited.
My first thought when this unfortunate news popped today is that this is how wars start. I'm of the belief that they knew he was ready to go, so they sent him back before he died in captivity. If he dies in DPRK, all hell breaks loose, no questions asked. It could not go unanswered. If he dies here, maybe there's room for reflection. Could be wrong - don't think I am.
I wonder if we will get the other Americans imprisoned there back now; this is horrible news for all, including (and maybe especially) DPRK.
That the Obama Administration told the family to be "patient" and"keep quiet" in the 11 months they were on office and he was there?
And this isn't a 1-0ff. They did not get anyone released from either Cuba or Iran despite favorable deals to both countries.
I'm not trying to make this political by any means, but these are major facts of this news story.
This is what's a little scary about the future of Democracy in this country. The Internet is so full of Fake News.....you don't know what to believe. Somebody says "Obama didn't do anything for any prisoners anywhere." And that idea is out there. Then Deej gives a list of what Obama actually did do for Hostages.
It's like that idiot who "read on the internet" that Hillary was running a child sex ring out of a pizzeria in Washington DC. So he drove up there, and started shooting up a crowded Pizza Joint.
A functioning Democracy requires a well-informed public. Not all this Alex Jones baloney. You can't run every sentence thru Snopes.
I dont think this is an internet issue. People just assume that because they dont know of something that the thing must not exist. Im sure there is a fancy term for it.
Thus, the post that the last admin did not secure the release of prisoners from Cuba or Iran because the poster is unaware that they did.
Or the insidious, how come Muslims never denounce terrorism... from people who simply fail to do any research before speaking.
I don't want to go to far into it because this thread Â
However, the 53 prisoners that were freed in Cuba by Obama were not American prisoners but Cuban dissidents. While awesome; that the Obama Admin did that, its not the point I was making
But I did look it up again and Obama did get 1 American prisoner freed in Alan Gross but had to free 3 Cubans in America to do so.
You are right about Iran and I had forgotten about the controversial prisoner swap and money deal in Iran.
In the end, I will say I was wrong to bring up the Iran/Cuba part into my point about Warmbier. 1- i was wrong but 2- it is unrelated to the point.
I will stand by my point that how the Obama Admin handled Warmbier is a legit point to be discussed. It was one of the first things brought up by his parents.
I decided against it because it seemed like most of the reports from folks who had gone were too similar. I knew I'd be lead around by minders and only allowed to see what they wanted me to see, so ultimately, it didn't feel like it was worth the money. If I ever had taken the time to learn Korean, that might change things.
But right now, you couldn't pay me to visit. With tensions escalating between the U.S. and NK, even before this kid came back half dead, I don't think the North Koreans might even wait for an excuse to grab an American tourist on a vacation and use them as a bargaining chip in their poor excuse for statecraft.
Likely trauma or torture
Maybe we can rough up a few more of their diplomats....
If that even happened. Since it's North Korea, who the hell knows?
No idea why any Westerner would even think about going to NK now. Not that I would have understood it before, but since they pretty much straight up murdered this kid, it would be even more baffling now.
Likely trauma or torture
Or he did get botulism, vomited, aspirated it and was effectively suffocated by his own vomit. I'm sure he wasn't attended to vigilantly by the DPNK guards....
They have a grainy video of an unknown person. There's absolutely no way to tell if it actually was Otto Warmbier.
Was spending his winter break in China, had the opportunity to take a NYE trip to NK.
He was on a trip to China and decided to take a brief side trip to NK.
He was in China and saw an add for a tour of North Korea that was "safe" for tourists. They accused him of stealing a poster from the hotel, released video that never showed the face of the person doing it.
We will never really understand those guys.
My bet, he probably was on life support (and had been for a while) when he arrived in the US. The Koreans gave him back as such only confirm it was futile and pull the plug.....
What does NK care what we think about where or why he died. Its not like were going to do anything about it.
Quote:
trying to understand why NK decided to send him back in this state? If he died in jail couldn't they have made up the cause?
We will never really understand those guys.
My bet, he probably was on life support (and had been for a while) when he arrived in the US. The Koreans gave him back as such only confirm it was futile and pull the plug.....
I suspect this is right. He was an expense to them and they either needed to pull the plug (or worse, euthanize him if it wasnt a "pull the plug" situation) or send him home. And ultimately decided to be slightly more humane at the end.
n comment 13504223 WideRight said:
Yes. Pure evil. Remember this is a "ruler" who kills his staff with anti aircraft or other large guns. So why care about a foreigner, especially from the U.S.? He's just a tool to use to make us angry. RIP. God bless. Prayers to him and his family and friends.
And this isn't a 1-0ff. They did not get anyone released from either Cuba or Iran despite favorable deals to both countries.
I'm not trying to make this political by any means, but these are major facts of this news story.
They do it in order to extort favorable concessions on money and food as there system is failing.
This is how the regime has propped itself up.
In comment 13504236 AcidTest said:
Quote:
their chosen means of poking the bear. Sad news.
Yes. Pure evil. Remember this is a "ruler" who kills his staff with anti aircraft or other large guns. So why care about a foreigner, especially from the U.S.? He's just a tool to use to make us angry. RIP. God bless. Prayers to him and his family and friends.
And this isn't a 1-0ff. They did not get anyone released from either Cuba or Iran despite favorable deals to both countries.
I'm not trying to make this political by any means, but these are major facts of this news story.
You say you arent, but then we see your words
Nobody is mentioning it because it can't be discussed here.
This took political means
We have people on here rightly blaming the North Korean government, which is political
We have people on here blaming our governments travel policy, which is political
The previous inaction by the prior administration in its 11 months on the case is a part of this story and deserves to be mentioned, no matter inconvenient that fact may be
I did not attempt to make it "political" by adding to those facts or putting them in comparison to other administrations
This is certainly not the Obama Administrations fault. That lies with North Korea alone
But concerned citizens have a right to ask what was done and what was not done and why.U
I wonder if he had any issues when he was there.
You have no idea what efforts the US made to bring this boy home. Did the last admin get Warbier freed and home and healthy? No, it did not. That simply cant be the standard we measure our administrations by, lets we just encourage our leaders to bow to hostage takers in ever instance. By the same token, the fact that the last admin brought home the people described above should not just be accepted as a great diplomatic fete. You must evaluate the give and the get in these deals.
This took political means
We have people on here rightly blaming the North Korean government, which is political
We have people on here blaming our governments travel policy, which is political
The previous inaction by the prior administration in its 11 months on the case is a part of this story and deserves to be mentioned, no matter inconvenient that fact may be
I did not attempt to make it "political" by adding to those facts or putting them in comparison to other administrations
This is certainly not the Obama Administrations fault. That lies with North Korea alone
But concerned citizens have a right to ask what was done and what was not done and why.U
There is a place for concerned citizens to discuss what should have been done. Tens of thousands of them. Here isn't one of them.
What does NK care what we think about where or why he died. Its not like were going to do anything about it.
Wrong.
Anyone should be able to go anywhere they want. Yes even NK. Use common sense. No need to add laws saying where we can and can not go.
And this isn't a 1-0ff. They did not get anyone released from either Cuba or Iran despite favorable deals to both countries.
I'm not trying to make this political by any means, but these are major facts of this news story.
This is what's a little scary about the future of Democracy in this country. The Internet is so full of Fake News.....you don't know what to believe. Somebody says "Obama didn't do anything for any prisoners anywhere." And that idea is out there. Then Deej gives a list of what Obama actually did do for Hostages.
It's like that idiot who "read on the internet" that Hillary was running a child sex ring out of a pizzeria in Washington DC. So he drove up there, and started shooting up a crowded Pizza Joint.
A functioning Democracy requires a well-informed public. Not all this Alex Jones baloney. You can't run every sentence thru Snopes.
I mean, it seems like everyone blithely prats around assuming "if I were around during Hitler I would have -done something-"
I mean, we all wish that, but, what would you have really done big guy? Nothing probably. Maybe at least shout it from the mountaintops...but now? All these years later,... North Korea....mostly silence.
And Stalin - to understand the whole nature of really living in a totalitarian society...where you cannot even have your own THOUGHTs, make art the wrong way, listen to the wrong music, talk out loud in front of almost anyone, and its torture and death.
Stalins work camps:
-working on a handful of corn a day, getting beat down randomly, even murdered by the guards, and without any recourse at all, or for any reason, being murdered for simply having any identity, any ethnicity, any nationality, any theory, other than 'happy state peon' it is all happening in North Korea right now.
When they first sent Warmbler home, there was a slew of big media headlines "Warmbler Released - What is Botulism?"
- Yeah, Right, great job people.
... and if you do, your family should have no expectation that we will sacrifice the national interest to get you home.
I mean, it seems like everyone blithely prats around assuming "if I were around during Hitler I would have -done something-"
I mean, we all wish that, but, what would you have really done big guy? Nothing probably. Maybe at least shout it from the mountaintops...but now? All these years later,... North Korea....mostly silence.
And Stalin - to understand the whole nature of really living in a totalitarian society...where you cannot even have your own THOUGHTs, make art the wrong way, listen to the wrong music, talk out loud in front of almost anyone, and its torture and death.
Stalins work camps:
-working on a handful of corn a day, getting beat down randomly, even murdered by the guards, and without any recourse at all, or for any reason, being murdered for simply having any identity, any ethnicity, any nationality, any theory, other than 'happy state peon' it is all happening in North Korea right now.
When they first sent Warmbler home, there was a slew of big media headlines "Warmbler Released - What is Botulism?"
- Yeah, Right, great job people.
Is your complaint that the media has not killed the N.K. dictator? Wasnt that the plot of that James Franco movie?
And while the news of Warmbier is making headlines here in the U.S.—it’s only a small reminder of the darkness and brutality thousands of North Koreans are experiencing in hard labor camps under the regime of Kim Jong-un. Right now, an estimated 120,000 North Koreans are being held in prison camps that the head of a U.N. inquiry panel says are “strikingly similar” to the Nazi atrocities in World War II.
While any sort of free-thinking in North Korea is harshly punished, participating in any religious practice—Christianity in particular—results in being sent to one of these prison camps where most end up dying. Here are three things you need to know about what life for a Christian is like in a prison camp, and how we can be praying for our persecuted family in North Korea.
FOOD IS SCARCE
Hyuk Kim, who fled North Korea after three years in a prison camp, said his daily ration was a handful of cornmeal and a few dozen small beans. Others have reported even less. Because of this one of the most common causes of death in a North Korean prison camp are side effects of malnutrition.
Prisoners who work in the fields may attempt to eat grass or leaves. On a good day, a prisoner may catch a rat but would have to eat it raw as the smell from cooking it could alert the prison guards. A lucky few end up on kitchen duty and can sneak scraps of food; however, those caught doing this will be beaten mercilessly.
THE LABOR IS BRUTAL
There are dozens of different jobs prisoners may be assigned but they all share some common traits: prisoners are expected to perform physically grueling tasks for hours on end with no rest. All while starving to death.
Kenneth Bae, a missionary imprisoned in a camp and later released, described working long hours manually tilling rocky soil in a field. Bae would routinely lose dozens of pounds, be sent to hospitals to recover, and then be sent back to camps. Most simply work until they die.
FREE THOUGHT IS FORBIDDEN
Prisoners are forbidden from any obvious act of religious faith. Even secret prayer meetings are rare as it’s impossible to know who to trust. One of the few ways to receive special privileges is to report on fellow prisoners. Relationships are so fragile some don’t trust their own families.
''
At least, not in the News Feed.
I mean, Washington Post, all that, yada yada every day, all day, but not this subject.
I wonder if he had any issues when he was there.
Excellent memory! I was there in 2008 after the Beijing Olympics. I went with a British operator and stayed in the same hotel he was accused of stealing the poster from. And yes, I had some issues there. I was accused of stealing a butter knife from my hotel room. I was taken off a bus, interrogated and had my suitcase checked before being allowed to leave when they couldn't locate the knife. Unbeknownst to me at the time, I inadvertently swept it into a pile of papers stuffed in my briefcase; now I use it as a letter opener and a reminder to myself how close to MAJOR TROUBLE a dull knife got me.
I've followed this closely and the video sure looks like one of the hallways in a public area of the Yanggakdo hotel, but you certainly can't tell its Otto Warmbier - frankly, it looks a little stilted. The hotel is on an island in the Taedong River in central Pyongyang. At night the draw bridge is pulled up and you're isolated even further. The number of people who would be able to access that area would be extremely, extremely limited.
My first thought when this unfortunate news popped today is that this is how wars start. I'm of the belief that they knew he was ready to go, so they sent him back before he died in captivity. If he dies in DPRK, all hell breaks loose, no questions asked. It could not go unanswered. If he dies here, maybe there's room for reflection. Could be wrong - don't think I am.
I wonder if we will get the other Americans imprisoned there back now; this is horrible news for all, including (and maybe especially) DPRK.
Quote:
That the Obama Administration told the family to be "patient" and"keep quiet" in the 11 months they were on office and he was there?
And this isn't a 1-0ff. They did not get anyone released from either Cuba or Iran despite favorable deals to both countries.
I'm not trying to make this political by any means, but these are major facts of this news story.
This is what's a little scary about the future of Democracy in this country. The Internet is so full of Fake News.....you don't know what to believe. Somebody says "Obama didn't do anything for any prisoners anywhere." And that idea is out there. Then Deej gives a list of what Obama actually did do for Hostages.
It's like that idiot who "read on the internet" that Hillary was running a child sex ring out of a pizzeria in Washington DC. So he drove up there, and started shooting up a crowded Pizza Joint.
A functioning Democracy requires a well-informed public. Not all this Alex Jones baloney. You can't run every sentence thru Snopes.
I dont think this is an internet issue. People just assume that because they dont know of something that the thing must not exist. Im sure there is a fancy term for it.
Thus, the post that the last admin did not secure the release of prisoners from Cuba or Iran because the poster is unaware that they did.
Or the insidious, how come Muslims never denounce terrorism... from people who simply fail to do any research before speaking.
However, the 53 prisoners that were freed in Cuba by Obama were not American prisoners but Cuban dissidents. While awesome; that the Obama Admin did that, its not the point I was making
But I did look it up again and Obama did get 1 American prisoner freed in Alan Gross but had to free 3 Cubans in America to do so.
You are right about Iran and I had forgotten about the controversial prisoner swap and money deal in Iran.
In the end, I will say I was wrong to bring up the Iran/Cuba part into my point about Warmbier. 1- i was wrong but 2- it is unrelated to the point.
I will stand by my point that how the Obama Admin handled Warmbier is a legit point to be discussed. It was one of the first things brought up by his parents.
But right now, you couldn't pay me to visit. With tensions escalating between the U.S. and NK, even before this kid came back half dead, I don't think the North Koreans might even wait for an excuse to grab an American tourist on a vacation and use them as a bargaining chip in their poor excuse for statecraft.