NFT: Knicks Chat: KP is staying, F the rumors

5 and 10

Melo would be a Knick on opening night.

Melo if they can't find a taker. Just rip off the damn band aide once & for all.

Frenchy's "false" preference to be a Mav became a story. He's denied it but who cares? He's staying in Europe if drafted by the Knicks? He has no power here unless he doesn't want an NBA career.

just cut. Let Rose go, make a good pick at #8 and try to boost Melo's value during the first half of the year. Make a trade come deadline.

In comment 13505865 Ash_3 said:

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just cut. Let Rose go, make a good pick at #8 and try to boost Melo's value during the first half of the year. Make a trade come deadline.

100% not aimed at you but I don't understand why everyone is connecting the two. Melo is under contract, if they think they can garner value by holding onto him so be it (not my preference) but Rose is a FA. I wouldn't even talk to BJ Armstrong. I wouldn't take Rose back for 1 year 5. Move on.

thought they could still get Ball at 5 if teams were scared away. This was the right move from SAC unless they were in love with Ball.

I really dont want to just cut Melo. The idea that he has zero value around the league has to be overblown. He is not a bad basketball player. Sure the contract combined with the NTC makes it hard, but if melo really is willing to open up the list of teams then we should be able to make some sort of deal. Even the crap clippers deal would net us some future firsts.

In comment 13505872 DanMetroMan said:

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In comment 13505865 Ash_3 said: Quote: just cut. Let Rose go, make a good pick at #8 and try to boost Melo's value during the first half of the year. Make a trade come deadline. 100% not aimed at you but I don't understand why everyone is connecting the two. Melo is under contract, if they think they can garner value by holding onto him so be it (not my preference) but Rose is a FA. I wouldn't even talk to BJ Armstrong. I wouldn't take Rose back for 1 year 5. Move on.

Yea I feel you; just put letting Rose go as a key step in creating an environment where Melo and others can do well again.

maybe you can trade him at the deadline. He is most likely opting out after next year (even with his absurd salary). So some team might take a shot on him as a playoff booster. There is no benefit to cutting him unless you think he is so toxic to the roster that he does more bad then good. Based on how his teammates feel about him i have hard time thinking that is the case.

In comment 13505861 DanMetroMan said:

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Frenchy's "false" preference to be a Mav became a story. He's denied it but who cares? He's staying in Europe if drafted by the Knicks? He has no power here unless he doesn't want an NBA career.

it was a rumor started by chad ford

Rose is the epitome of a guy I don't want on the Knicks. A selfish, low IQ (at least as a player), non-verbal quitter who doesn't play defense. During my KP melt down yesterday one thing that stood out was the Knicks had 2 of the best rim protectors (by the numbers) in the entire league and yet the defense was still absolutely pathetic... I'm looking at you Rose, Melo etc. Move on.

In comment 13505859 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

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Melo if they can't find a taker. Just rip off the damn band aide once & for all.

Are you still a Knick fan or just more of a NBA fan now?

In comment 13505880 DanMetroMan said:

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Rose is the epitome of a guy I don't want on the Knicks. A selfish, low IQ (at least as a player), non-verbal quitter who doesn't play defense. During my KP melt down yesterday one thing that stood out was the Knicks had 2 of the best rim protectors (by the numbers) in the entire league and yet the defense was still absolutely pathetic... I'm looking at you Rose, Melo etc. Move on.

What a brutal offseason last year was. Clearly shows no plan in place.

if we have no other option. Rose makes no sense. He isnt going to be super cheap and he didnt work out well last year. Combine that with the fact that we are most likely taking a guard and it makes zero sense. Thats all we need is rose coming back and playing 35 minutes a night and Monk getting 10 minutes off the bench.

In comment 13505873 Italianju said:

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thought they could still get Ball at 5 if teams were scared away. This was the right move from SAC unless they were in love with Ball. I really dont want to just cut Melo. The idea that he has zero value around the league has to be overblown. He is not a bad basketball player. Sure the contract combined with the NTC makes it hard, but if melo really is willing to open up the list of teams then we should be able to make some sort of deal. Even the crap clippers deal would net us some future firsts.

I think Boston trading back with Philly when they did may have screwed the Lakers in this instance. Everything I've read says the Kings are in love with Fox. If Philadelphia is sitting there at 3 then maybe Sacramento feels the need to jump ahead of them to get their guy, but what is the point in moving up now? You know Boston isn't taking Fox and it's highly unlikely that the Suns do either. Sacramento can sit tight at 5 and still get their guy.

In comment 13505881 Sean said:

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In comment 13505859 SFGFNCGiantsFan said: Quote: Melo if they can't find a taker. Just rip off the damn band aide once & for all. Are you still a Knick fan or just more of a NBA fan now?

Dolan's incompetence, buffoonery, & general dickish behavior (if you disagree with him, you must be an alcoholic) has really soured me on the franchise. And it doesn't look like he's going anywhere anytime soon.

In comment 13505892 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

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In comment 13505881 Sean said: Quote: In comment 13505859 SFGFNCGiantsFan said: Quote: Melo if they can't find a taker. Just rip off the damn band aide once & for all. Are you still a Knick fan or just more of a NBA fan now? Dolan's incompetence, buffoonery, & general dickish behavior (if you disagree with him, you must be an alcoholic) has really soured me on the franchise. And it doesn't look like he's going anywhere anytime soon.

I'm in the same spot. I hope it turns around but it's doubtful.

makes a ton of sense. I hope that happens, but doubt it. We have got to trade melo and move on. I'm not sure I'd cut him though.

can play well here and get along with the rest of the roster. In particular, he has a good relationship with KP. You do not sell this low, especially when it's clear he can play better.

Rose has shown no indication that he realizes he's only a 6th man caliber player at this point and he, especially as our lead guard, helped slow KP's development. He was the biggest toxin on our squad last year and is a sorry episode we should be moving on from.

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Dolan's incompetence, buffoonery, & general dickish behavior (if you disagree with him, you must be an alcoholic) has really soured me on the franchise. And it doesn't look like he's going anywhere anytime soon.

So true, but as Sean says above, last summer was just brutal, brutal for this franchise, and it went beyond Rose and Noah, just think if Jackson hadn't caved on the NTC for Melo. It is hard to think of a worse possible outcome to the actions Jackson took in 2016.

As far as the draft, I think JJ is going to turn out to be the stud of the 2017 class.

In comment 13505899 Keith said:

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makes a ton of sense. I hope that happens, but doubt it. We have got to trade melo and move on. I'm not sure I'd cut him though.

What in the world would 1 year as a 6th man do for Derrick Rose? He's given up on big minutes and contract?

MKG, Jeremy lamb, Cody zeller and #31.

Rose coming back for 1 year means the market didn't give him what he wanted so he comes back at a reduced role and suddenly decides to play defense? Or does he maybe try and put up numbers at the cost of his team? Derrick Rose doesn't strike me as a guy who suddenly is going to be unselfish or decide at 28 years old he's now Jamal Crawford/Lou Williams.

on any deal makes no sense. The NYK need to stop allowing poison to destroy the franchise. By poison, I mean:

1 Selfish players (Rose, Melo)
2 Players that don't give def effort (Rose, Melo)
3 Irresponsible players i.e. don't carry out on court assignments and in addition, I'm not dismissing the AWOL as the NYK did (Rose)
4 Management with ulterior motives i.e. to get fired and collect paychecks for doing nothing (Jackson)
5 Decision makers with no understanding of the difference between what a player previously did in their careers and what they likely have left in the tank (Jackson)
6 General cloud of chaos that sits over the franchise (all involved), the same cloud that results in FAs staying away and the organization being a running joke and the worst in pro sports

struck me as an outside contender/option for Melo even before the Howard deal. I think they make sense.

Melo and KOQ for
giantsfan44ab : 9:51 am : link : reply
MKG, Jeremy lamb, Cody zeller and #31.

Have you forgotten the NTC? What makes you think he'd be inclined to waive it to go to a "no frills" franchise/city like Charlotte?

In comment 13505934 Pep22 said:

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Melo and KOQ for giantsfan44ab : 9:51 am : link : reply MKG, Jeremy lamb, Cody zeller and #31. Have you forgotten the NTC? What makes you think he'd be inclined to waive it to go to a "no frills" franchise/city like Charlotte?

Michael Jordan?

MJ has really made his mark there. Real mover and shaker in that role.

is Jordan brand and has been since 2004.

Walker, Howard, Batum, Melo, Kaminsky, Zeller, Lamb a highly respected coach. once you move away from the ELITE few teams the Hornets are one of the better options.

In comment 13505938 Pep22 said:

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MJ has really made his mark there. Real mover and shaker in that role.

MElo saying yes to charlotte seems much more likely than him saying yes to Portland. So it would entirely be him going to a "winning" situation. Better than any deal Washington could offer too. I think that hypothetical charlotte team could be a top 4-5 seed.

it'll be a desired city (i.e. MIA, CHI, LAC) or winning potential (only one remotely possible is CLE) or buy-out as far as how the Melo tenure ends.

In comment 13505859 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

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Melo if they can't find a taker. Just rip off the damn band aide once & for all.

i dont get this logic. The Nets got a #1 for Bogdanovic. If melo plays well next season, he should be able to be traded at the deadline for picks. Wasting assets is not a great idea.

has the Nets 2nd rounder (31st overall). I'd def be asking for that as part of any deal.

as an option for Melo?

Cuban flirts with most, if not all big names that surface. And you have to think Melo would welcome such a player-friendly owner.

Is there a potential fit here? Do they have any assets that could help the Knicks rebuild?

In comment 13505865 Ash_3 said:

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just cut. Let Rose go, make a good pick at #8 and try to boost Melo's value during the first half of the year. Make a trade come deadline.

^ thats what a good GM would do.

So they'll cut him and re-sign Rose. I hate this organization.

Period. just deal with it.

said he never worked out for knicks, just dinner and kps name never came up...

was some stat that Rubio passed the ball to Towns DOUBLE the amount that Rose passed to KP. Keep in mind Wiggins/Melo are both the #1 scorers on their teams that alone should tell you it's time to move on from Rose.

In comment 13505958 Chris684 said:

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as an option for Melo? Cuban flirts with most, if not all big names that surface. And you have to think Melo would welcome such a player-friendly owner. Is there a potential fit here? Do they have any assets that could help the Knicks rebuild?

They really don't have anything. I guess yogi Ferrell if they draft frank? Yogi is Cuban's pet project so not sure he'd part with him. Don't know how salaries would match.

has a good relationship with KP, and not just instrumentally. He can be a positive influence on a guy like KP, even if KP has a better motor. But you simply cannot have two ball dominant, potentially lazy defensive players in your starting lineup and expect that to help your franchise cornerstone.

In comment 13505957 DanMetroMan said:

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has the Nets 2nd rounder (31st overall). I'd def be asking for that as part of any deal.

Are we just making this up or is there some smoke/rumors about Charlotte?

In comment 13505970 Ash_3 said:

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has a good relationship with KP, and not just instrumentally. He can be a positive influence on a guy like KP, even if KP has a better motor. But you simply cannot have two ball dominant, potentially lazy defensive players in your starting lineup and expect that to help your franchise cornerstone.

That's the other thing. Melo seems to be well liked by his teammates (especially KP), whereas Rose doesn't even seem to be "part" of the team. KP essentially called him a mute.

In comment 13505972 Justlurking said:

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In comment 13505957 DanMetroMan said: Quote: has the Nets 2nd rounder (31st overall). I'd def be asking for that as part of any deal. Are we just making this up or is there some smoke/rumors about Charlotte?

Totally made up in light of the Howard deal

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In comment 13505972 Justlurking said:

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In comment 13505957 DanMetroMan said: Quote: has the Nets 2nd rounder (31st overall). I'd def be asking for that as part of any deal. Are we just making this up or is there some smoke/rumors about Charlotte?

It literally came out of my head 30 minutes ago. Don't get too hopeful.

love to find a way to land one of the 76ers second rounders, they are shopping them

building on that point, I'd like to add some mature, serious, competitive guys to this team by way of the draft (Frank Mason, Derrick White, Sindarious Thornwell, Dillon Brooks). Obviously none of that occurs at the 8 spot.

I think they're trying to force a buyout. Stephen A. Smith said talked buyout yesterday, but I didn't want to bring it up because it's, well, Stephen A. Smith.

I think Melo to CHA makes some sense. Kembas the first scoring option, Jordan connection and a really good coach. Melo could get out of NY for a year and then opt out and sign wherever he wants next summer. I'm a huge Melo fan but it's time to move on. Wait until after free agency to see if any teams who missed out on the big guys want Melo and you can get him to agree to a trade. If not then figure out a buy out. You can even try to repair the Knicks image a little by doing Melo a solid and letting him free. There's just no need to have him on this Knicks team moving forward.

Under no circumstances does it make sense to bring back Rose. Not even on the vet min. It was a failed experiment. Admit that and move on.

I certainly understand the perception of Derrick Rose and I also understand his history. I think the likelihood if getting him on a 1 year 6-8M deal is low. I am not sure what his knee looks like, that's also very concerning to me. I'd make sure my doctors are looking at the MRI's very closely and it shows no more structural damage. His knee injury is one that you can come back very quickly from and be 100%, it just means that his career will be shortened on the back end. I would make sure he understands that his role will be as the 6th man and he would need to fully embrace that. Having said all of that...

I believe that Rose has an elite skill which is very valuable in the NBA. I agree that Rose doesn't work well with KP, but as the 6th man, those minutes together would be very limited and they did play well in short doses at points when Rose would come in and Melo would go out. I also understand that Rose went MIA, I would have suspended him, but there must be more to the situation than we know. The Knicks seem to look at Rose favorably, even though his public image is one of a guy that doesn't seem to care. Either way, it's not something I can't get past. I understand that his defense lacked last year, but I put that on the mental approach. Early in the season, I think his defense was solid, but as the season slipped away, his frustration kicked in. Again, I think there was more to that.

I think Rose can have some success as the 6th man and have some trade value. Rose has thrived in the past when he was the scorer and he had good role players around him. What is the risk as the 6th man on a 1 year deal? Fans feelings on players shouldn't matter.

Melo on the other hand does not have an elite skill anymore. I think he's a decent spot up shooter now at best, but the majority of his shots are coming from further and further away. Sure he can have that 1 great shooting game every 5 games, but the other 4 games he's hurting us because he stops the offense and doesn't play on defense. He can't and doesn't get to the rim anymore. All of his shots are from long range and I'd guess the defense has a much higher % of getting those rebounds. He cannot succeed as the 2nd fiddle to KP without a PG that can distribute very well.

I think Rose takes better shots. I think Rose's scoring ability is better, I think Rose as the 6th man fits better. I think Rose might net you something decent. Melo's value has consistently gone down with his game. He has not been the same player since the knee injury and he's not a guy that really busts it to be great. He's never in great shape, he saves his energy for when the ball is in his hands and he's only getting older. I wouldn't just buy Melo out, but I'd take back almost anything that doesn't hurt us. I'm not sure what that is though.

In comment 13505992 bceagle05 said:

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I think they're trying to force a buyout. Stephen A. Smith said talked buyout yesterday, but I didn't want to bring it up because it's, well, Stephen A. Smith.

if he is willing to take a step back and let kp be the number 1 option i am good with melo staying but if he thinks he is still the number 1 option then take a fucking hike

opts in. I'm semi-surprised. 1 year 17.88, I know he's a "flawed" player but what he does, he does very, very well.

and a future second gets a pick from PHI. Although i guess we dont have many future seconds. Maybe they want a second in 2025

then why will that change? Has anyone heard any connection to Melo other than teams saying they aren't interested? Maybe when the good players all find new homes there will be someone interested, but I can't see us getting much at all. I don't see that changing next season as Melo's game will not get better.

thats one thing, but if he is going back to blocking any trade thats not LAC or CLE or whatever in hopes that we are forced to buy him out that would really piss me off. Id rather the knicks keep him next year just to spite him if that was the case. Im not saying it is, but that would be my feeling on it if that turned out to be true.

Not that it's his fault, but another year of Phil/Melo shit will only alienate KP even more and hold the entire franchise back. I know it's bad business, but just get rid of him by any means necessary.

In comment 13505999 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

In comment 13505992 bceagle05 said: Quote: I think they're trying to force a buyout. Stephen A. Smith said talked buyout yesterday, but I didn't want to bring it up because it's, well, Stephen A. Smith. if he is willing to take a step back and let kp be the number 1 option i am good with melo staying but if he thinks he is still the number 1 option then take a fucking hike

What does this mean though? Take a step back and do what? All of a sudden move the ball when he has it. What about Melo makes you think he's capable of that?

then Melo would work a lot better. I really hope we end up with Rubio somehow.

has always been to bring him off the bench. A reporter mentioned that possibility to him at the end of the season and he laughed it off. His ego will never allow it. If we're serious about getting him to leave, we should play that card.

In comment 13506006 Keith said:

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then why will that change? Has anyone heard any connection to Melo other than teams saying they aren't interested? Maybe when the good players all find new homes there will be someone interested, but I can't see us getting much at all. I don't see that changing next season as Melo's game will not get better.

The hope is that George will end on team X, Butler will either stay in Chicago or land on team Y and these other teams will move on to plan B. We "know" the Lakers, Clippers, Wizards, Cavs, Warriors and Rockets have spoken to the Pacers. We "know" the Lakers, Cavs and Celtics have spoken to the Bulls (I assume the Celtics have spoken to Indiana as well but I haven't seen that). Hopefully one of these teams decides Melo is an option on a plan B.

got a 1 sentence e-mail from my friend.

"Clippers are freaking out. Pau's opt out has them spooked"



Could have a huge impact. Presumably Griffin would leave too. They might as well deal Jordan.

Only player in the HISTORY OF THE NBA to score 2000 pts, 1000 rebounds, 250 blocks and 100 made three's in his first two years. That's history of the NBA. That's a Unicorn. So Booker and #4 doesn't scratch the surface in my book.

and they dont have a damn thing to give us. Paul would prolly stay if they got melo (considering how much more they could pay him). Clippers could go from borderline contender to bottom 5 in the league in one offseason.

Dan

pau opting out in SA is what that is referenced in Dan's post, but his opt out could be directly tied to them making a run at Paul.

and things shake out as you say.

1. I do not see Houston being interested in Melo at all. Melo/D'Antoni won't happen again, IMO.

2. I can't see Melo leaving unless it's an ideal personal situation. That's either on one of the best teams or one of his friends teams. Bye bye Wiz, bye bye Lakers(I can't see them being interested in melo anyway).

3. Clippers? I can see them being interested. I know you love Rivers, that should be a solid haul.

4. Cavs? This is my darkhorse. I can see the Cavs going for Melo in a 3 way in which Love goes elsewhere, the major pieces and Melo go back to the Cavs. Knicks get the scraps.

5. Celtics? We need to hope they get shut out with the good players, but even then, I can't see it.

In comment 13506024 Carl in CT said:

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Dan

I think Pau's opt out gives SA the money to give CP3 a max offer (or at least a lot closer to it)

In comment 13506023 Italianju said:

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and they dont have a damn thing to give us. Paul would prolly stay if they got melo (considering how much more they could pay him). Clippers could go from borderline contender to bottom 5 in the league in one offseason.

When you say borderline contender, are you really saying that they are a playoff team that will lose in the 1st or 2nd round? They should break it up.

gotcha

Sindarius Thornwell of South Carolina
John Motley of Baylor
Tony Bradley of UNC
Frank Jackson of Duke
Tyler Dorsey of Oregon
Derrick White of Colorado
Edmond Sumner of Xavier
PJ Dozier of South Carolina

id consider a team that can get to the second round a borderline contender in todays NBA. And im sure the clippers would rather keep their star and get knocked out in the second round as opposed to losing him and prolly griffin and winning 18 games. I agree they should probably break it up, but i dont think NBA owners or even FO people think championship or bust. If they do then 28 teams should go into rebuild mode.

In comment 13506030 Keith said:

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and things shake out as you say. 1. I do not see Houston being interested in Melo at all. Melo/D'Antoni won't happen again, IMO. 2. I can't see Melo leaving unless it's an ideal personal situation. That's either on one of the best teams or one of his friends teams. Bye bye Wiz, bye bye Lakers(I can't see them being interested in melo anyway). 3. Clippers? I can see them being interested. I know you love Rivers, that should be a solid haul. 4. Cavs? This is my darkhorse. I can see the Cavs going for Melo in a 3 way in which Love goes elsewhere, the major pieces and Melo go back to the Cavs. Knicks get the scraps. 5. Celtics? We need to hope they get shut out with the good players, but even then, I can't see it.

Billups is the favorite for the Cavs job. Billups has repeatedly said the Cavs should trade Love for Melo. I think a 3 way deal involving the Cavs/Knicks and a team that wants Love (Suns are one such team) would be the best realistic outcome. #AustinRiversIsGarbage

sorry I didn't see the above. My friend is saying word is the Clippers are nervous about Paul leaving and Pau Gasol opting out (for the expressed reason of helping the Spurs add cap room) has them really concerned.

that has to be our dream scenario. A 3 team deal with love would turn out great for us. We would at least get some useful pieces.

In comment 13506044 DanMetroMan said:

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sorry I didn't see the above. My friend is saying word is the Clippers are nervous about Paul leaving and Pau Gasol opting out (for the expressed reason of helping the Spurs add cap room) has them really concerned.

I think Paul on the Spurs makes them a tough out for GSW. Healthy Spurs with focused D are dangerous.

the disdain for him because he's a 1 or 2 dimensional player rather than a complete superstar in his prime is just irrational. He is a net positive on this team by a healthy margin. Rip the bandaid off? He's one of our best players.

News flash: half the league sucks at defense.

Suns were reportedly willing to give up the #4 pick for Love before Griffin was fired. I'm obviously not expecting the #4 pick for Melo but I really think the Cavs/Love/Billips 3 way deal situation is the one we most realistically should be eyeing.

- Lebron gets his BFF Melo
-Lebron and Melo finally get to play together and can both bounce if it doesn't work out
-Melo presumably says yes to Cleveland
-Love presumably has enough suitors where we would get something decent for him. Even if part of the "return" for Love ended up in Cleveland I still think we would end up with the best possible situation.

In comment 13506041 Italianju said:

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id consider a team that can get to the second round a borderline contender in todays NBA. And im sure the clippers would rather keep their star and get knocked out in the second round as opposed to losing him and prolly griffin and winning 18 games. I agree they should probably break it up, but i dont think NBA owners or even FO people think championship or bust. If they do then 28 teams should go into rebuild mode.

I don't disagree with your overall point, but not this Clippers team which would include most players past their prime. It's a team that was knocked out in the 1st round 2 years in a row with older players going in the wrong direction. There is no upside with young players or even picks in the near future. This is a team that has to blow it up, IMO.

They could always use him to come off the bench to add some scoring if needed. I wonder how quick he would agree to a trade if that would happen?

cause id really like that 4th pick, haha.

the Knicks are getting the scraps. Who knows, maybe Billups will be like Isiah and do something outrageous.

The guy is an asset. You don't just release assets. Whats the harm in having him? Eventually he'll be dealt. Once the game of star musical chairs stops going around some team will be left without a chair and come calling to give us something. Even if its the Clippers and their lousy future #1's that's better than just releasing him.

but he moves to the bench, IMO. If you can't move Melo(again, I'd take anything that doesn't hurt us), I wouldn't consider Rose. Melo would be the 6th man.

to Cleveland, Love to the Suns, Knicks get Suns 2nd round pick, Toronto's second round pick, 2018 pick from Miami (Suns own it), 2018 2nd rounder from Toronto (Suns own it) and the Cavs 2021 or 2023 1st rounder (Knicks pick)

-Cavs:Melo
- Suns:Love

-Knicks: 32nd overall in 2017, #54 in 2017, 2018 first from Miami, 2018 2nd from Toronto and an additional first from Cleveland

So the Knicks would be receiving 2 first round picks, 3 2nd round picks and would have picks 8, 32, 44, 54 and 58 this year

they desperately need a distributing PG. I would like that to be a young player who can grow with KP, I hope that guy comes to us in the draft.

for Melo? Am I reading that right?

Rubio or Sergio Rodriguez

That would be a terrible trade for the Suns, IMO.

sense with chriss? And potentially Isaac now?

In comment 13506087 giantsfan44ab said:

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sense with chriss? And potentially Isaac now?

Don't ask me, the Suns according to David Aldridge were "heavily engaged" in Love for #4 talks before Griffin was fired. (#4 would have moved on for George or Butler).

In comment 13506079 Keith said:

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for Melo? Am I reading that right?

And the Suns, who someone posted would give #4 for Love, instead get him for the Miami 2018 pick and some #2s. Doesnt make any sense.

Also, I'd be wary of any trade asking the Cavs to give future #1s. I believe they are very much gonna hedge their bets re LeBron leaving again, soon.

claims the deal was agreed to pending the Cavs being able to spin the pick for PG13/Butler but were unable to.

"During David Griffin's final hours as general manager of the Cleveland Cavaliers, he found a team in the lottery willing to trade for Kevin Love in exchange for their lottery pick.

Griffin was shopping that lottery pick in hopes of trading for either Jimmy Butler or Paul George.

According to sources, that team was the Phoenix Suns at No. 4."

shopping Jordan.

Jackson rejected an invite from the Celtics. Kind of weird.

sign me up. I'd do that in a second. I'm not sure we'd get the Miami first though.

he is a solid player, but he is going to be pretty limited if he goes to a team without a distributing PG like Paul.

they'd have something to give for Melo. That would be a terrible move for them, but if they are trying to stay relevant...

would make alot more sense than Love.

The Clippers are hoping to get younger and have discussed a trade with the Phoenix Suns for the No. 4 pick and Tyson Chandler. Phoenix is believed to not be interested in the trade scenario.

-Chris Haynes


#4 for Jordan and Chandler is an awful deal. Awful

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In comment 13506105 DanMetroMan said:

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The Clippers are hoping to get younger and have discussed a trade with the Phoenix Suns for the No. 4 pick and Tyson Chandler. Phoenix is believed to not be interested in the trade scenario. -Chris Haynes #4 for Jordan and Chandler is an awful deal. Awful

Could get the deal done with some combo of the Miami pick, Warren, Bender, or Ulis.

In comment 13506105 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

The Clippers are hoping to get younger and have discussed a trade with the Phoenix Suns for the No. 4 pick and Tyson Chandler. Phoenix is believed to not be interested in the trade scenario. -Chris Haynes #4 for Jordan and Chandler is an awful deal. Awful

lmao

f all of that sounds too good to be true, then you haven't yet heard from Andy Schwarz. A San Francisco�based antitrust economist, longtime critic of college sports amateurism, and�full disclosure�occasional contributor to VICE Sports, Schwarz has a plan to make it happen. It's a business plan, in fact, and while it's still in its early stages, it works, in a nutshell, like this:

Step 1: Form an HBCU-exclusive basketball league.

Step 2: Tell the NCAA to pound sand, and pay the nation's very best high school and college basketball players to be part of it.

Step 3: Profit. Oh, and also change the face of big-time campus athletics forever.

"One of the ways to bust up a monopoly is through disruption," Schwarz says. "That's the idea here."
Link - ( New Window )

Love to PHX, Melo to Cavs and #4 and Knight and Dudley to NY? Where do we sign?

the Knicks have told Frenchy he's the pick. No idea the origin of the rumor but he is now following KP/Willy on instagram.

In comment 13506124 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

the Knicks have told Frenchy he's the pick. No idea the origin of the rumor but he is now following KP/Willy on instagram.

That would be horrendous.

how front offices allow leaks of info like who they are targeting (unless its misdirection)

In comment 13506098 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

Jackson rejected an invite from the Celtics. Kind of weird.

maybe he sees himself playing the same position as brown?

Now Please Dallas trade to 7 and take him!

In comment 13506124 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

the Knicks have told Frenchy he's the pick. No idea the origin of the rumor but he is now following KP/Willy on instagram.

Woohooo....or something.

In comment 13506135 bceagle05 said:

Quote:

In comment 13506124 DanMetroMan said: Quote: the Knicks have told Frenchy he's the pick. No idea the origin of the rumor but he is now following KP/Willy on instagram. Woohooo....or something.

In Clarence, we trust?

He's what, 18 years old? Have fun next year, especially if Melo's still around, along with Phil, Hornacek and Rambis. It'll be even more dysfunctional.

In comment 13506124 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

the Knicks have told Frenchy he's the pick. No idea the origin of the rumor but he is now following KP/Willy on instagram.

started by a guy on twitter called joey poppas, he is an mtv douchebag, who claims to have sources

to give a guarantee to a guy like him. I mean what if jackson or tatum or fox falls? Im not saying they will, but you never know.

if DSJ or Monk averages 16+ and this kid doesn't leave the bench how this place will go crazy on Phil.

and he was supposed to go around 5 so it could happen.

In comment 13506146 Italianju said:

Quote:

to give a guarantee to a guy like him. I mean what if jackson or tatum or fox falls? Im not saying they will, but you never know.

It might be different in the NBA but a few years back the Mets had a verbal agreement with Jay Bruce, then Mike Pelfrey fell and they "reneged" on the Bruce agreement. I'm sure these guarantees come with the knowledge it's not a "true" guarantee.

In comment 13506092 DanMetroMan said:

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claims the deal was agreed to pending the Cavs being able to spin the pick for PG13/Butler but were unable to. "During David Griffin's final hours as general manager of the Cleveland Cavaliers, he found a team in the lottery willing to trade for Kevin Love in exchange for their lottery pick. Griffin was shopping that lottery pick in hopes of trading for either Jimmy Butler or Paul George According to sources, that team was the Phoenix Suns at No. 4."

I'm not buying this from Windhorst. So the Cavs had the 4th overall pick offered for PG13 and the Pacers said no? Unless the Lakers panic and give up #2 , the Pacers aren't see anything close this value for Paul George.

I know some people think that's a bad move from the Suns but I actually really like it for them. I think Love fits very nicely for them.

lazy to find the origin but there was a report the Celtics turned down #3 for Butler.

In comment 13506146 Italianju said:

Quote:

to give a guarantee to a guy like him. I mean what if jackson or tatum or fox falls? Im not saying they will, but you never know.

remember when the knicms were guaranteed to take winslow...

shit i had source who was close to mudiay who basocally told me knicks told him they were picking him and have been contact every day

In comment 13506159 TyreeHelmet said:

Quote:

In comment 13506092 DanMetroMan said: Quote: claims the deal was agreed to pending the Cavs being able to spin the pick for PG13/Butler but were unable to. "During David Griffin's final hours as general manager of the Cleveland Cavaliers, he found a team in the lottery willing to trade for Kevin Love in exchange for their lottery pick. Griffin was shopping that lottery pick in hopes of trading for either Jimmy Butler or Paul George According to sources, that team was the Phoenix Suns at No. 4." I'm not buying this from Windhorst. So the Cavs had the 4th overall pick offered for PG13 and the Pacers said no? Unless the Lakers panic and give up #2 , the Pacers aren't see anything close this value for Paul George. I know some people think that's a bad move from the Suns but I actually really like it for them. I think Love fits very nicely for them.

How? They get an older player at the same position as one of their "pieces" (maybe 2 if they draft Isaac) to get the 7,8,9 seed and go home round 1? Suns are one of the promising young teams, why give that up to give up and fail right now?

Knicks fans love to bash the media but this piece is from @MikeVacc sums everything up perfectly for me. I think he nails it.
Link - ( New Window )

for a long, long time.

In comment 13506185 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

Knicks fans love to bash the media but this piece is from @MikeVacc sums everything up perfectly for me. I think he nails it. Link - ( New Window )

Interesting. I agree with a few of the assessments, basically the most virulently anti-Phil ones (his track record and the overall shit show atmosphere). But

Sandy Alderson lied his fucking ass off to fans at every turn for those post Madoff years. It is not contestable. Lets not hold him out as a positive example.

And on KP, maybe Im an apologist, but I dont get it. He skipped the meeting in protest. He didnt blow it off lik a kid who overslept (or this is the narrative we all accept, right?). Why isnt that an acceptable form of protest? Phil was gonna spout some triangle garbage to him that he's already heard. No one outside that room would get his frustration level (including Dolan). Worse I think would be KP asking for a meeting with Dolan, no?

And likening KP to a "working stiff who answers to a boss" misses the point. KP is a singular talent. All NBA players are, but he in particular is, as noted by guys like KD calling him a unicorn. Life isnt fair -- the same rules dont apply to unique or rare and valuable talents. The power dynamic is different. The employer of a file room clerk at a 1000 lawyer isnt in the same relationship as KP has with NY, and people who pretend that the same dynamics exist are fools. Putting aside for the moment that (1) he has a contract, and cant be fired, and (2) if he was fired and cast into the free market for his services (as would happen to a working stiff), his salary would increase by a factor of 5-8 immediately, and he'd have his choice of employer in the industry.

employs both Vaccaro and Berman.

I get and appreciate that he Vaccaro rightly called out Phil and why we dont trust him. But the vehicle was lazy IMO. It's like the articles where one political party is doing something ridiculous, and somehow the article manages to squeeze out a conclusion that "both sides do it".

Vaccaro went out of his way with a lot of words to say KP was wrong. But why? Every Knicks fan was furious last season. Ownership, management, coaches, players -- each failed. Team was a total shitshow. KP acknowledges that with a small, not very material protest, and he's condemned. "Unprofessional" says Anak. Not what a working stiff would do, says Vaccaro.

It's not the same. There was no need to spend that much time on KP in the article. Even if you expressly say, "Im not equating it", you in many ways are.

for Griffin to be leaking this stuff and perhaps slightly exaggerate just how close he was to pulling off a mega deal that would have improved the Cavs...just before the rug was pulled out from under him.

the point is if Phil Jackson's rings came as a GM most fans (myself included) would have far less "issue" with him handling potentially trading KP instead the beginning of his tenure has gone horrendously so we have no reason to feel confident in him. It's not as if he's made multiple good trades or moves with the Knicks were it should be #TrustPhil whereas the Spurs could draft some player from Bulgaria not even listed on DX and most would feel #TrustBuford

In comment 13506226 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

the point is if Phil Jackson's rings came as a GM most fans (myself included) would have far less "issue" with him handling potentially trading KP instead the beginning of his tenure has gone horrendously so we have no reason to feel confident in him. It's not as if he's made multiple good trades or moves with the Knicks were it should be #TrustPhil whereas the Spurs could draft some player from Bulgaria not even listed on DX and most would feel #TrustBuford

I get that, but paragraphs 1, 2, and 4 are criticisms of KP. Setting up Phil by taking a shit on KP is literally a conceit of how the article is written. Crap on KP for a bit and pivot to Phil with, literally, a "That said �" segue. That's my problem with the article.

KP SHOULD have skipped that meeting. I like that he cared enough to do so, rather than just accept the shit show that was the 2016-17 NY Knicks (and frankly, the entire Phil Jackson in NY era). Phil has run the franchise to the ground and embarrassed it. You dont need a 200 word lede criticizing KP to get to that point.

In comment 13506185 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

Knicks fans love to bash the media but this piece is from @MikeVacc sums everything up perfectly for me. I think he nails it. Link - ( New Window )

Excellent, but seems as if he was on a word limit cuz too much of the last third was spent on the Alderson digression, which imo undercut the savage roasting of Phil.

that athletes, especially young athletes, are property to be molded and whipped into shape, and need to fall in line with the whims of ownership-coaching, and it's kinda gross. We don't ride coaching and front offices with nearly the same paternal brow-beating.

The Knicks are an atrocity. They have bungled and mismanaged everything for coming-on two decades. They don't deserve the "do as we say" level of respect that the Spurs or Patriots have earned. More specific to that article, Phil Jackson has repeatedly shown himself to be distantly out of touch with the current model of the NBA. Why should anyone give him the benefit of the doubt at this point?

this fan hysteria driven by the Media over reporting is a product of the Knicks treating the Media poorly. I'm positive if the Knick PR department treated the Media properly, a non story like this would stay a non story.
What exactly are the Knicks doing wrong here? I'd be more upset if they weren't willing to at least listen to offers on. Porzingis isn't one of the few "untradeable" players in the league.

The only real story here is the discord between Porzingis and the franchise, and we all know winning or progress would easily cure that.

In comment 13506266 Ten Ton Hammer said:

Quote:

that athletes, especially young athletes, are property to be molded and whipped into shape, and need to fall in line with the whims of ownership-coaching, and it's kinda gross. We don't ride coaching and front offices with nearly the same paternal brow-beating. The Knicks are an atrocity. They have bungled and mismanaged everything for coming-on two decades. They don't deserve the "do as we say" level of respect that the Spurs or Patriots have earned. More specific to that article, Phil Jackson has repeatedly shown himself to be distantly out of touch with the current model of the NBA. Why should anyone give him the benefit of the doubt at this point?

Very good post.

yup, and a Vaccaro put it very well, why would any player worth trading/drafting for, and especially any young player, invest his belief, his reputation, his dedication with Phil Jackson, for Phil Jackson? He throws his own players under the bus, trashes them in public, executes trades that make no sense and is willing to leave it all in a dumpster fire and then, during the season, hides from public accountability.

Clay Travis thinks the Cavs should trade Lebron to the Lakers for 2,27,28. I know this guys whole act is to be outrageous and wants clicks, but that's the dumbest thing I've ever read.

What's the latest rumblings on the Knicks pick? Any chance it's not Frank N?

In comment 13506266 Ten Ton Hammer said:

Quote:

that athletes, especially young athletes, are property to be molded and whipped into shape, and need to fall in line with the whims of ownership-coaching, and it's kinda gross. We don't ride coaching and front offices with nearly the same paternal brow-beating. The Knicks are an atrocity. They have bungled and mismanaged everything for coming-on two decades. They don't deserve the "do as we say" level of respect that the Spurs or Patriots have earned. More specific to that article, Phil Jackson has repeatedly shown himself to be distantly out of touch with the current model of the NBA. Why should anyone give him the benefit of the doubt at this point?

This is post is dead on.
The way they have treated every good player for the last 20 years is a disgrace.
Why any player would want to play for this team is beyond me.
Until Dolan dies or truly give up control this team will continue to break our collective hearts.

In comment 13506185 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

Knicks fans love to bash the media but this piece is from @MikeVacc sums everything up perfectly for me. I think he nails it. Link - ( New Window )

I think that is an excellent article. He legitimately and fairly criticizes Phil, but he doesn't pretend KP is an untouchable angel either.

In comment 13506284 TyreeHelmet said:

Quote:

Clay Travis thinks the Cavs should trade Lebron to the Lakers for 2,27,28. I know this guys whole act is to be outrageous and wants clicks, but that's the dumbest thing I've ever read. What's the latest rumblings on the Knicks pick? Any chance it's not Frank N?

Isn't LEbron a FA and always have a NTC??

mavs may have deal with twolves to move up to 7 to take frank

In comment 13506316 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

mavs may have deal with twolves to move up to 7 to take frank

Really hope that happens.

In comment 13506316 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

mavs may have deal with twolves to move up to 7 to take frank

Great news.

Monk!

Phil isn't trying to trade KP. KP wants Phil out.

.

In comment 13506316 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

mavs may have deal with twolves to move up to 7 to take frank

I can see Phil giving Thibs Courtney Lee to swap picks, outrage ensues.

Ian Begley‏ @IanBegley 5m5 minutes ago
More
Dennis Smith says he enjoyed meeting with the Knicks and Phil Jackson and thinks he can thrive in the triangle offense.

of Monk or Smith (if Frank's gone).

make it to 8. Assuming they take Frank, that is.

Works for me.

Smith. Huge upside and loved reading how much video he watches/how in-tune he was with specific aspects of the triangle and Lakers offenses (the quotes came post meeting with both).

In comment 13506348 bceagle05 said:

Quote:

of Monk or Smith (if Frank's gone).

I would not be happy with this outcome.

that was heavily discussed?
Would love to grab the 15th pick.

then Monk. Mitchell over both, ugh.

In comment 13506354 Heisenberg said:

Quote:

make it to 8. Assuming they take Frank, that is. Works for me.

If Frank goes 7, at least two of Smith, Monk, Isaac, Fox, Tatum, and Jackson make it to our pick (and I've put them in the order I think they're most likely to be available to us). We still might not take one of them.

Im fine with any of those 8 or Frank, I think. I know less about Mitchell, so Im not revolted by the idea of him. But he's also on the short side, albeit with better reach than Monk.

Marc Stein‏Verified account
@ESPNSteinLine
Following
More
Free Agency Scuttle: Houston is making Ryan Anderson/Lou Williams/Patrick Beverley available via trade to create summer spending flexibility

He is obviously furious that KP disrespected the great Phil Jackson by skipping his exit interview. So, now he is trying to punish him by showing KP that he can be traded.

But it ain't going to happen. I doubt Dolan would sign off on it. The Knicks are going to be terrible this year regardless and Dolan's primary concern is MSG. He is not dumping his one marketable commodity.

Also, Phil has not lived up to the hype. I don't think Dolan would have any problem dumping him if it came down to a showdown between KP and Phil. And I think KP knows that and that is why he has no fear of Phil.

One agent explained to Sean Deveney of Sporting News how bad things have gotten for the Knicks heading into free agency this summer:

"I was talking to one of our players the other day, a free agent, and we were looking at our options. And it used to be, 'Yeah, get me to New York.' Even when they were struggling, there are guys who want to be in the city. But he was saying, 'no, no, not that environment, not now.' They're not just alienating their own players, they're alienating all players. They're making things hard on themselves there."

In comment 13506378 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

Marc Stein‏Verified account @ESPNSteinLine Following More Free Agency Scuttle: Houston is making Ryan Anderson/Lou Williams/Patrick Beverley available via trade to create summer spending flexibility

Knicks have the cap space to absorb some of those guys - but the thought of Phil trading with Morey is terrifying.

In comment 13506370 Deej said:

Quote:

In comment 13506354 Heisenberg said: Quote: make it to 8. Assuming they take Frank, that is. Works for me. If Frank goes 7, at least two of Smith, Monk, Isaac, Fox, Tatum, and Jackson make it to our pick (and I've put them in the order I think they're most likely to be available to us). We still might not take one of them. Im fine with any of those 8 or Frank, I think. I know less about Mitchell, so Im not revolted by the idea of him. But he's also on the short side, albeit with better reach than Monk.

Yeah, I didn't mean all of them would be there. It would be a good scenario for me if the Mavs take Frank. He could be great, I don't know. But I like all of those 4 more than him.

In comment 13506382 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

One agent explained to Sean Deveney of Sporting News how bad things have gotten for the Knicks heading into free agency this summer: "I was talking to one of our players the other day, a free agent, and we were looking at our options. And it used to be, 'Yeah, get me to New York.' Even when they were struggling, there are guys who want to be in the city. But he was saying, 'no, no, not that environment, not now.' They're not just alienating their own players, they're alienating all players. They're making things hard on themselves there."

#culture

In comment 13506385 hitdog42 said:

Quote:

In comment 13506382 DanMetroMan said: Quote: One agent explained to Sean Deveney of Sporting News how bad things have gotten for the Knicks heading into free agency this summer: "I was talking to one of our players the other day, a free agent, and we were looking at our options. And it used to be, 'Yeah, get me to New York.' Even when they were struggling, there are guys who want to be in the city. But he was saying, 'no, no, not that environment, not now.' They're not just alienating their own players, they're alienating all players. They're making things hard on themselves there." #culture

I dream of the day we acquire enough culture points so that Trevor Booker will want to come play for us!

In comment 13506383 Enzo said:

Quote:

In comment 13506378 DanMetroMan said: Quote: Marc Stein‏Verified account @ESPNSteinLine Following More Free Agency Scuttle: Houston is making Ryan Anderson/Lou Williams/Patrick Beverley available via trade to create summer spending flexibility Knicks have the cap space to absorb some of those guys - but the thought of Phil trading with Morey is terrifying.

Rockets have no first this year and gave up a first to land Lou Williams so I find it hard to believe they would have much to offer. Do we really want Ryan Anderson 3 for 60 for the Rockets (with Chris Paul or PG13)'s 2018 pick? I'd take Dekker if they were willing to include him in the right deal.

captaining the Frank bandwagon.

Viva la Frank!

In comment 13506382 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

One agent explained to Sean Deveney of Sporting News how bad things have gotten for the Knicks heading into free agency this summer: "I was talking to one of our players the other day, a free agent, and we were looking at our options. And it used to be, 'Yeah, get me to New York.' Even when they were struggling, there are guys who want to be in the city. But he was saying, 'no, no, not that environment, not now.' They're not just alienating their own players, they're alienating all players. They're making things hard on themselves there."

that last sentence rings true. NYC did have some allure for these guys even with a lousy owner. But when you add Phil you get this two-headed combination of buffoonery, incompetence, and assholish behavior (not to mention an amateur in over his head in Mills doing the leg work). It's just a lot to overcome.

In comment 13506385 hitdog42 said:

Quote:

In comment 13506382 DanMetroMan said: Quote: One agent explained to Sean Deveney of Sporting News how bad things have gotten for the Knicks heading into free agency this summer: "I was talking to one of our players the other day, a free agent, and we were looking at our options. And it used to be, 'Yeah, get me to New York.' Even when they were struggling, there are guys who want to be in the city. But he was saying, 'no, no, not that environment, not now.' They're not just alienating their own players, they're alienating all players. They're making things hard on themselves there." #culture

This to me is the most disappointing thing about Jackson's tenure. I'd have thought that a guy who has been such a big part of a bunch of winning environments would have an idea how to build a winning organization. But, amazingly, he has made the Knicks even MORE dysfunctional.

In comment 13506382 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

One agent explained to Sean Deveney of Sporting News how bad things have gotten for the Knicks heading into free agency this summer: "I was talking to one of our players the other day, a free agent, and we were looking at our options. And it used to be, 'Yeah, get me to New York.' Even when they were struggling, there are guys who want to be in the city. But he was saying, 'no, no, not that environment, not now.' They're not just alienating their own players, they're alienating all players. They're making things hard on themselves there."

So everyone understands, the great Phil Jackson has sunk our undesirability to levels it didnt see in the Layden and Thomas eras.

He needs to go. Taking runs at Melo, KP, and LeBron is bad executive management. I dont care how much anyone here hates Melo -- there was no upside in going after him publicly.

In comment 13506389 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

In comment 13506383 Enzo said: Quote: In comment 13506378 DanMetroMan said: Quote: Marc Stein‏Verified account @ESPNSteinLine Following More Free Agency Scuttle: Houston is making Ryan Anderson/Lou Williams/Patrick Beverley available via trade to create summer spending flexibility Knicks have the cap space to absorb some of those guys - but the thought of Phil trading with Morey is terrifying. Rockets have no first this year and gave up a first to land Lou Williams so I find it hard to believe they would have much to offer. Do we really want Ryan Anderson 3 for 60 for the Rockets (with Chris Paul or PG13)'s 2018 pick? I'd take Dekker if they were willing to include him in the right deal.

Anderson would be a lot of money to take on - but I would take Beverly and Williams for nothing, i.e. I wouldn't need anything in addition to them. Of course other teams would likely feel the same way.

is making more than double basically every other GM in the sport....to fuck up this badly.

can't imagine them "giving away" Williams or Beverley unless Chris Paul/PG13 were done deals.

Phil takes a run at Melo and LeBron. KP is alienated and furious. Phil disses the 3 ball (and the Warriors, right? Goink?). Dolan has a Knicks legend removed from courtside by security.

Why would anyone come here, money equal? Only argument I can think of is to play with KP. Maybe there is a little more minor endorsement money (the major endorsements go to winning stars, wherever they may be).

made DSJ try grilled octopus, he didn't like it... Phil will now pass.

In comment 13506382 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

One agent explained to Sean Deveney of Sporting News how bad things have gotten for the Knicks heading into free agency this summer: "I was talking to one of our players the other day, a free agent, and we were looking at our options. And it used to be, 'Yeah, get me to New York.' Even when they were struggling, there are guys who want to be in the city. But he was saying, 'no, no, not that environment, not now.' They're not just alienating their own players, they're alienating all players. They're making things hard on themselves there."

I find these types of comments to be moronic. No one is kicking down any doors to accept the Brooklyn Nets' money either. If LeBron could go back to play for the guy who wrote the letter, anyone will go anywhere that supplies the right amount of money and a chance to win. The Knicks SOLE focus needs to be on making this organization better through the draft. And once they get a good core through the draft, all of a sudden, guys will want to come here in free agency.

Frankly, free agents refusing to come to the Knicks only makes it less likely for the Knicks to hand a dumb contract to anyone.

ignores what the franchise was like before he came and what it will look like when he's gone. It starts at the top.

In comment 13506392 Jon in NYC said:

Quote:

captaining the Frank bandwagon. Viva la Frank!

I'm with you. A guy whose floor is plus D with outside range is a d
Keeper for me. We're still two studs away no matter who we get this year.

In comment 13506408 shockeyisthebest8056 said:

Quote:

In comment 13506382 DanMetroMan said: Quote: One agent explained to Sean Deveney of Sporting News how bad things have gotten for the Knicks heading into free agency this summer: "I was talking to one of our players the other day, a free agent, and we were looking at our options. And it used to be, 'Yeah, get me to New York.' Even when they were struggling, there are guys who want to be in the city. But he was saying, 'no, no, not that environment, not now.' They're not just alienating their own players, they're alienating all players. They're making things hard on themselves there." I find these types of comments to be moronic. No one is kicking down any doors to accept the Brooklyn Nets' money either. If LeBron could go back to play for the guy who wrote the letter, anyone will go anywhere that supplies the right amount of money and a chance to win. The Knicks SOLE focus needs to be on making this organization better through the draft. And once they get a good core through the draft, all of a sudden, guys will want to come here in free agency. Frankly, free agents refusing to come to the Knicks only makes it less likely for the Knicks to hand a dumb contract to anyone.

LeBron went "home" to a team that had 3 straight #1 picks. It's not evidence that the douchey letter was irrelevant. Also that's one letter vs. a decade+ is mismanagement.

If the sole focus is getting better thru the draft, then the org wont improve. Fundamentally, there needs to be some "culture" change.

Your last point isnt as logical as you think it is. I think it's MORE likely we hand out dumb contracts, as players seek a premium to play here in this losing, corrosive environment. Could change if we start winning. But your assumption seems to be that this quote means no one will take our money; it doesnt.

"floor" is certainly not "plus D" sorry. He's long for sure and has "plus D" upside but he's not an outstanding pure athlete, or particularly quick. He may yet become a plus defender but this idea it's "worst case" is not based in reality. Kid averaged 0.8 steals, 0.2 blocks in 18 minutes per game in a GARBAGE league.

and you desperately lack talent the way we do, picking a guy who by almost every media account is a safe pick for a quality role player but likely has limited upside as a star is not the best idea.

don't think people realize how poor the quality of play is in LNB Pro A, like REALLY bad. If Frenchy is the pick I will root for him like he was my first choice but this is nothing like KP who put up numbers in the #2 league in the world and was a freak for his size. The best D league team would thrash the best team in this league, no exaggeration.

so we can just agree to disagree. I'll be exited if he's the pick. I don't weigh his production in the French league all that much. Too many variables and time and time again we've seen people come here and be successful after barely contributing.

He has tools and the right mentality. That excites me.

In comment 13506418 Ash_3 said:

Quote:

and you desperately lack talent the way we do, picking a guy who by almost every media account is a safe pick for a quality role player but likely has limited upside as a star is not the best idea.

Amen to that. Nothing against Frank but we need to gamble on greatness right now. We did so with KP when other "safer" picks were on the board, most of whom have proven to be anything but safe.

In comment 13506428 Jon in NYC said:

Quote:

so we can just agree to disagree. I'll be exited if he's the pick. I don't weigh his production in the French league all that much. Too many variables and time and time again we've seen people come here and be successful after barely contributing. He has tools and the right mentality. That excites me.

So you think his floor is "plus" defensive 1/2 with 3 point range? That's the worst potential outcome? Even the scouts that like him say he has the potential to be an impact defender not that he IS one. That's a pretty silly "floor" to put anyone who hasn't "done it" before.

In comment 13506418 Ash_3 said:

Quote:

and you desperately lack talent the way we do, picking a guy who by almost every media account is a safe pick for a quality role player but likely has limited upside as a star is not the best idea.

agree. You swing for the fences in the lottery.

In comment 13506428 Jon in NYC said:

Quote:

so we can just agree to disagree. I'll be exited if he's the pick. I don't weigh his production in the French league all that much. Too many variables and time and time again we've seen people come here and be successful after barely contributing. He has tools and the right mentality. That excites me.

It's precisely the tools I disagree about. No need to rehearse that debate.

He's not an explosive Russ type. But lets not underrate the reports that he's a really good at moving the ball and playing smart. It's a big part of the game. He's rocking the 3 and has the length to be an elite defender.

I think so much of the difference between good and great is between the ears, and we cant evaluate that.

This is a key offseason, I don't see any benefit in firing him now. Just cause 1 guy said he doesn't want to go to NY, it means nothing. They suck and there is no chance they will be good very soon. Win some games, build a foundation around a few young players and I'm sure plenty of guys will want to come to NY.

In comment 13506435 Deej said:

Quote:

He's not an explosive Russ type. But lets not underrate the reports that he's a really good at moving the ball and playing smart. It's a big part of the game. He's rocking the 3 and has the length to be an elite defender. I think so much of the difference between good and great is between the ears, and we cant evaluate that.

I hear you Deej, but guards with undeveloped handles and who are smooth but not explosive don't seem like a good bet even if they are smart and will make the right play. With forwards, the difference between a bad and a good handle with respect to position is much smaller than it is for a guard, where a below-average handle can be crippling.

In comment 13506425 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

don't think people realize how poor the quality of play is in LNB Pro A, like REALLY bad. If Frenchy is the pick I will root for him like he was my first choice but this is nothing like KP who put up numbers in the #2 league in the world and was a freak for his size. The best D league team would thrash the best team in this league, no exaggeration.

Great points here. People and even Phil like to make it seem like Porzingis came out of nowhere and he plucked him from some obscure league. He played on a marquee team in the best euro league in the world. He was also a consensus top 5 pick. Phil still nailed the pick but KP wasn't this unknown prospect.

In comment 13506393 Enzo said:

Quote:

But when you add Phil you get this two-headed combination of buffoonery, incompetence, and assholish behavior (not to mention an amateur in over his head in Mills doing the leg work). It's just a lot to overcome.

Not sure how that's any different than the Isiah era, though.

In comment 13506425 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

don't think people realize how poor the quality of play is in LNB Pro A, like REALLY bad. If Frenchy is the pick I will root for him like he was my first choice but this is nothing like KP who put up numbers in the #2 league in the world and was a freak for his size. The best D league team would thrash the best team in this league, no exaggeration.

The quality is better than the NCAA's or at least Fran Fraschilla says so:

Fran Fraschilla‏Verified account @franfraschilla May 27
More
Lottery pick, Frank Ntilikina's season continues w/win in French Pro A playoffs. Hard to explain to fans that level is much higher than NCAA


Nic Batum played in the same league and put up very similar numbers at Frank's age. That doesn't mean he'll be as good but it does tell me that putting too much weight into it isn't very useful.

In comment 13506435 Deej said:

Quote:

He's not an explosive Russ type. But lets not underrate the reports that he's a really good at moving the ball and playing smart. It's a big part of the game. He's rocking the 3 and has the length to be an elite defender. I think so much of the difference between good and great is between the ears, and we cant evaluate that.

The key is "length to be". I really have a problem with the suggestion is "worst case" is an excellent defender. Heck, Corey Brewer (strong defender) Brewer shot 44% from 3 as a Freshman (36% from 3 over the 3 seasons) and is a career 0.54, 11.9 PER player despite being a "success" (going on 10 NBA seasons). So I fail to see how Frenchy's floor is so high that a "good" 3 and D player is the downside. That seems far fetched.

In comment 13506441 Strahan91 said:

Quote:

In comment 13506425 DanMetroMan said: Quote: don't think people realize how poor the quality of play is in LNB Pro A, like REALLY bad. If Frenchy is the pick I will root for him like he was my first choice but this is nothing like KP who put up numbers in the #2 league in the world and was a freak for his size. The best D league team would thrash the best team in this league, no exaggeration. The quality is better than the NCAA's or at least Fran Fraschilla says so: Fran Fraschilla‏Verified account @franfraschilla May 27 More Lottery pick, Frank Ntilikina's season continues w/win in French Pro A playoffs. Hard to explain to fans that level is much higher than NCAA Nic Batum played in the same league and put up very similar numbers at Frank's age. That doesn't mean he'll be as good but it does tell me that putting too much weight into it isn't very useful.

Fraschilla recently ranked it the #7 league in the world (ACB #1 international league). He also is obsessed with international players.

Fultz
Ball
Tatum
Jackson
Fox
Smith
Isaac

Really think there's a good chance it comes down to monk vs frank.

In comment 13506039 Anakim said:

Quote:

Sindarius Thornwell of South Carolina John Motley of Baylor Tony Bradley of UNC Frank Jackson of Duke Tyler Dorsey of Oregon Derrick White of Colorado Edmond Sumner of Xavier PJ Dozier of South Carolina

Thoughts on any of these guys?

Frank Ntilikina: �Well, the broader view here is there's likely to be five point guards drafted in the first 10. It's going to be interesting. And most likely because of the fact that people don't know him like they know the four college kids, he's going to go fifth,� Fraschilla said. �And what I love about him -- and by the way, I think he's going to be able to show you -- I hate to say this because I'm not a fan of the triangle, I think in the modern NBA the spacing doesn't work as well as it did in the old days, but he's a triangle kind of player, simply because he's not really a 1, and he's not really a 2. He's a guard.

�He can make decisions well. He shoots it well. He's athletic. He could be a good defender. And you're also looking at a kid who's still 18 years old. His long-term potential as an NBA player is very good. I watched him last summer at the Jordan Gym in New York City, and he made 27 out of 30 NBA 3s. I think people who didn't know him early on -- the obligatory line when you don't know somebody is, he's a really good athlete, but he's not a great shooter, and he's dispelling that this year in France, shooting over 40 percent from the international 3. He doesn't have the polish of a Fultz or Ball or the speed and athleticism or raw athleticism of Fox or Smith, but he has the look and feel of an NBA guard when he grows up.�

In comment 13506413 Deej said:

Quote:

LeBron went "home" to a team that had 3 straight #1 picks. It's not evidence that the douchey letter was irrelevant. Also that's one letter vs. a decade+ is mismanagement. If the sole focus is getting better thru the draft, then the org wont improve. Fundamentally, there needs to be some "culture" change. Your last point isnt as logical as you think it is. I think it's MORE likely we hand out dumb contracts, as players seek a premium to play here in this losing, corrosive environment. Could change if we start winning. But your assumption seems to be that this quote means no one will take our money; it doesnt.

If there was anyone who ever had a reason not to go or didn't need to go somewhere, it was LeBron. How they got the players isn't my point... the fact that they had them made Cleveland an attractive option for a man who had other choices and never needed to play for Dan Gilbert ever again. And he got the most money of any player who signed with a new team that offseason. I could argue Cleveland was still mismanaged with those number 1 picks, during LeBron's first stay with the Cavs, and even now. But if you pay people and give them a chance to win, players will get over that shit very quickly.

I know it's "Pile on Phil" time and for some people, anything that doesn't feed into that needs to be attacked. But the idea that players will turn down money and an opportunity to win because Phil said some things about Melo is laughable. (And let's be honest... I seriously doubt Phil is going to be around much longer if this thing isn't pointing in the right direction 12 months from now, regardless of Phil's contract extension.) I just don't take comments like the original one seriously. It's basically pile on Phil horseshit I totally expect to see from the basketball media at this time and it gets lapped up by everyone who hates Phil and Dolan.

I also completely disagree with your interpretation of the last 2 sentences.

In comment 13506446 Jon in NYC said:

Quote:

Fultz Ball Tatum Jackson Fox Smith Isaac Really think there's a good chance it comes down to monk vs frank.

I take Monk without blinking.

largely cause of his fit with the triangle, then Phil's even dumber than I think he is.

that Malik Monk would be a Knicks draft pick, I'd have guessed we were picking in the top five or six. To get him at eight would be a heist.

In comment 13506446 Jon in NYC said:

Quote:

Fultz Ball Tatum Jackson Fox Smith Isaac Really think there's a good chance it comes down to monk vs frank.

Wouldn't sleep on Mitchell either. They crammed his workout in on the day before the draft and he has a lot of the attributes they're looking for.

leading scorers from the league since 2003

Year Player PTS
2017 Cameron Clark 613
2016 Michael Thompson 604
2015 Steven Gray 572
2014 Edwin Jackson 547
2013 Dwight Buycks 545
2012 Eric Chatfield 574
2011 Sammy Mejia 539
2010 Derrick Obasohan 594
2009 Austin Nichols 643
2008 Marc Salyers 572
2007 Dewarick Spencer 699
2006 Jason Rowe 713
2005 Jermaine Guice 671
2004 TJ Lux 717
2003 Danny Strong 980



MVP's
2004�05 France Laurent Sciarra (BCM) United States Jermaine Guice (STB)
2005�06 France Cyril Julian (Nancy) United States Jason Rowe (Toulon)
2006�07 France Cyril Julian (Nancy) United States Dewarick Spencer (Roanne)
2007�08 France Nando de Colo (Cholet) United States Marc Salyers (Roanne)
2008�09 France Alain Koffi (MSB) United States Austin Nichols (Toulon)
2009�10 France Ali Traor� (ASVEL) Dominican Republic Ricardo Greer (Nancy)
2010�11 France Micka�l Gelabale (ASVEL) Dominican Republic Samuel Mejia (Cholet)
2011�12 France Fabien Causeur (Cholet) United States Blake Schilb (Chalon)
2012�13 France Edwin Jackson (ASVEL) United States Dwight Buycks (BCM)
2013�14 France Antoine Diot (SIG) United States Randal Falker (Nancy)


It's not even former college stars it's "who?"

In comment 13506442 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

In comment 13506435 Deej said: Quote: He's not an explosive Russ type. But lets not underrate the reports that he's a really good at moving the ball and playing smart. It's a big part of the game. He's rocking the 3 and has the length to be an elite defender. I think so much of the difference between good and great is between the ears, and we cant evaluate that. The key is "length to be". I really have a problem with the suggestion is "worst case" is an excellent defender. Heck, Corey Brewer (strong defender) Brewer shot 44% from 3 as a Freshman (36% from 3 over the 3 seasons) and is a career 0.54, 11.9 PER player despite being a "success" (going on 10 NBA seasons). So I fail to see how Frenchy's floor is so high that a "good" 3 and D player is the downside. That seems far fetched.

I think every single player's floor is to be terrible, and unplayable. I dont believe in floors, and Im skeptical of even "reasonable" floors. I draft for upside * chance I think player has of reaching his upside.

In comment 13506459 Deej said:

Quote:

In comment 13506442 DanMetroMan said: Quote: In comment 13506435 Deej said: Quote: He's not an explosive Russ type. But lets not underrate the reports that he's a really good at moving the ball and playing smart. It's a big part of the game. He's rocking the 3 and has the length to be an elite defender. I think so much of the difference between good and great is between the ears, and we cant evaluate that. The key is "length to be". I really have a problem with the suggestion is "worst case" is an excellent defender. Heck, Corey Brewer (strong defender) Brewer shot 44% from 3 as a Freshman (36% from 3 over the 3 seasons) and is a career 0.54, 11.9 PER player despite being a "success" (going on 10 NBA seasons). So I fail to see how Frenchy's floor is so high that a "good" 3 and D player is the downside. That seems far fetched. I think every single player's floor is to be terrible, and unplayable. I dont believe in floors, and Im skeptical of even "reasonable" floors. I draft for upside * chance I think player has of reaching his upside.

I think when people talk floor, they really mean expected value.

And for the life of me i don't understand why this is even a remote possibility. Why do that? Keep melo if you have to and let him do his thing as a scorer or better yet, sixth man. Why buy him out?? He's a 22 ppg scorer for fucks sake. I'd rather they deal him for a young chip but by no means should the knicks buy him out.

In comment 13506450 shockeyisthebest8056 said:

Quote:

If there was anyone who ever had a reason not to go or didn't need to go somewhere, it was LeBron. How they got the players isn't my point... the fact that they had them made Cleveland an attractive option for a man who had other choices and never needed to play for Dan Gilbert ever again. And he got the most money of any player who signed with a new team that offseason. I could argue Cleveland was still mismanaged with those number 1 picks, during LeBron's first stay with the Cavs, and even now. But if you pay people and give them a chance to win, players will get over that shit very quickly. I know it's "Pile on Phil" time and for some people, anything that doesn't feed into that needs to be attacked. But the idea that players will turn down money and an opportunity to win because Phil said some things about Melo is laughable. (And let's be honest... I seriously doubt Phil is going to be around much longer if this thing isn't pointing in the right direction 12 months from now, regardless of Phil's contract extension.) I just don't take comments like the original one seriously. It's basically pile on Phil horseshit I totally expect to see from the basketball media at this time and it gets lapped up by everyone who hates Phil and Dolan. I also completely disagree with your interpretation of the last 2 sentences.

Im not interested in LeBron. We both have points.

If an agent says that players' desire to play in NY has changed, I just dont know how you can throw that out as irrelevant. We know that (at least in other sports) guys have wanted to come to NY. Happened and happens a lot with the Rangers. So why couldnt the reverse be true?

You seem (to me at least) to just throw away the idea that players would care about being in a shitshow organization all other things being equal? We just dont agree on this.

In comment 13506440 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

In comment 13506393 Enzo said: Quote: But when you add Phil you get this two-headed combination of buffoonery, incompetence, and assholish behavior (not to mention an amateur in over his head in Mills doing the leg work). It's just a lot to overcome. Not sure how that's any different than the Isiah era, though.

The difference is that Isiah had a reputation for being a personable and charming guy in person...and wasn't that far removed from a HOF playing career. If you're a player, I think you respond more to him than an 72-year-old arrogant prick.

In comment 13506461 Ash_3 said:

Quote:

I think when people talk floor, they really mean expected value.

No, I actually think people basically mean floor, ie. he'll at least be X good. I think people have short memories, and just elide the fact that players usually turn out to be a lot worse than the lofty expectations we're giving them now.

In comment 13506466 Deej said:

Quote:

In comment 13506461 Ash_3 said: Quote: I think when people talk floor, they really mean expected value. No, I actually think people basically mean floor, ie. he'll at least be X good. I think people have short memories, and just elide the fact that players usually turn out to be a lot worse than the lofty expectations we're giving them now.

Then people are idiots.

-29 teams called about KP
- there's no way to get back equal value for KP
-every day Phil is in the job he's doing more damage to the Knicks.
- no one from the Knicks has reached out to Kristaps since the seasons been over
- Jackson should be trying to repair relationships and instead he's making them worse.

I have no idea how anyone can defend Phil anymore. Who would have thought he would make the Knicks a bigger joke then when he was hired.

And for those who say who cares about this offseason. Players and agents and teams have long memories. It's not just about this season. He's doing damage.

after yesterdays fireworks, almost nothing today.

In comment 13506469 Ash_3 said:

Quote:

In comment 13506466 Deej said: Quote: In comment 13506461 Ash_3 said: Quote: I think when people talk floor, they really mean expected value. No, I actually think people basically mean floor, ie. he'll at least be X good. I think people have short memories, and just elide the fact that players usually turn out to be a lot worse than the lofty expectations we're giving them now. Then people are idiots.

Isnt this a first order, basic truth. People are very, very stupid.

I guess we're bringing the gang back for another 30-35 wins!

�Nobody from the Knicks will be there [working me out],� Porzingis said. �You see what happened to Josh Longstaff. �

In comment 13506476 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

�Nobody from the Knicks will be there [working me out],� Porzingis said. �You see what happened to Josh Longstaff. �

Phil needs to be fired.

But he should have stayed in school. He's got a long, long way to go.

Frank Jackson is kind of a homeless man's Monk. A small 2 guard, definitely not going to be a 1 in the NBA. Average athleticism, decent shot, weak defense.

But whatever

In comment 13506477 Ash_3 said:

Quote:

In comment 13506476 DanMetroMan said: Quote: �Nobody from the Knicks will be there [working me out],� Porzingis said. �You see what happened to Josh Longstaff. � Phil needs to be fired.

Yeah. Our franchise building block asks to have the member of the staff who was sent to train him come out again, and we fire the staffer instead.

Because Phil has to be right about the triangle.

In comment 13506475 bceagle05 said:

Quote:

I guess we're bringing the gang back for another 30-35 wins!

Melo wont be traded, Rose will be resigned, and Phil will issue a typo-laden tweet about the importance of continuity.

In comment 13506477 Ash_3 said:

Quote:

In comment 13506476 DanMetroMan said: Quote: �Nobody from the Knicks will be there [working me out],� Porzingis said. �You see what happened to Josh Longstaff. � Phil needs to be fired.

did you read the whole article? kp also goes on to say his main frustration was that the tram did not live up to expectations and that not everypne bought in...

he also says how he wants to stay with the knickd and does not want to be traded

In comment 13506483 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

In comment 13506477 Ash_3 said: Quote: In comment 13506476 DanMetroMan said: Quote: �Nobody from the Knicks will be there [working me out],� Porzingis said. �You see what happened to Josh Longstaff. � Phil needs to be fired. did you read the whole article? kp also goes on to say his main frustration was that the tram did not live up to expectations and that not everypne bought in... he also says how he wants to stay with the knickd and does not want to be traded

Do you think if Phil continues to treat players and "build" a team the way he has so far, KP won't get alienated?

In comment 13506480 Deej said:

Quote:

In comment 13506477 Ash_3 said: Quote: In comment 13506476 DanMetroMan said: Quote: �Nobody from the Knicks will be there [working me out],� Porzingis said. �You see what happened to Josh Longstaff. � Phil needs to be fired. Yeah. Our franchise building block asks to have the member of the staff who was sent to train him come out again, and we fire the staffer instead. Because Phil has to be right about the triangle.

technically not fired :)

In comment 13506485 Ash_3 said:

Quote:

In comment 13506483 nygiants16 said: Quote: In comment 13506477 Ash_3 said: Quote: In comment 13506476 DanMetroMan said: Quote: �Nobody from the Knicks will be there [working me out],� Porzingis said. �You see what happened to Josh Longstaff. � Phil needs to be fired. did you read the whole article? kp also goes on to say his main frustration was that the tram did not live up to expectations and that not everypne bought in... he also says how he wants to stay with the knickd and does not want to be traded Do you think if Phil continues to treat players and "build" a team the way he has so far, KP won't get alienated?

if he has young players around hik and the team is built around him, no i dont...

and what do you mean players? it is one player, melo, do you know how horrible phil treatex kobe? and you know what kobe told melo? suck it the fuck up

In comment 13506479 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

But whatever

You assume too much. Marbury's threat to blackmail Zeke is not necessarily inconsistent with him finding Zeke to be personable. It's just business.

And BTW, Marbury was being benched for Mardy Collins, which was bonkers. So he had a point.

In comment 13506470 TyreeHelmet said:

Quote:

-29 teams called about KP - there's no way to get back equal value for KP -every day Phil is in the job he's doing more damage to the Knicks. - no one from the Knicks has reached out to Kristaps since the seasons been over - Jackson should be trying to repair relationships and instead he's making them worse. I have no idea how anyone can defend Phil anymore. Who would have thought he would make the Knicks a bigger joke then when he was hired. And for those who say who cares about this offseason. Players and agents and teams have long memories. It's not just about this season. He's doing damage.

After what he said about Donnie Walsh being in a wheelchair, why would any Knicks fan listen to this person? And when Donnie went back to Indiana, Woj pretended Donnie did a great job with the Knicks. This feeds into my previous comments about so much of this stuff being about criticizing Phil and Dolan. (And that means the fans too.) The comment that "no one from the Knicks has reached out to KP" is just untrue. Hornacek tried to touch base with him and KP simply did not respond.

he alienated the biggest star in the nba and also a player who brought 3 championships and was draftex by heat and no one bats an eyelash..

dan gilbert wrote a letter about lebron and lebron still came back...

chris paul was on a team with a racist owner...

if you draft the right players no one gives a shit about the management

another reason Rose can't return. They need to change the roster. They need to move on from these types of players/personalities some theoretical "well he might be a good value as a bench scorer" does not overshadow the need to change the culture and locker room of this team. I mentioned toward the end of last season I was told the locker room was "not good" and some people questioned me (and that's fine) but I stand by what I was told and fully believe it. So... we know that KP/Willy/Kuz/Baker were "buddies" and Melo (like it or not) is close with KP, KP praised Noah... there are only so many guys you can point the finger at...Not saying Melo should stay (at all) but enough is enough, fucking do something about it.

I mean that as a criticism of the journalist, whose anti-Knicks feelings are well established.

the Rat gets the benefit of the doubt. Phil Jackson does not. Sorry, that's how it works. Win big doing a role, you get the benefit of the doubt doing the same role somewhere else. Riley might be a scumbag but does anyone really question his ability to reel in big fish? Would anyone truly be shocked if he added a superstar over the next 2 off-seasons? Hayward etc. In fact, some are suggesting if Lebron doesn't go to LA, the superfriends may re-unite in Miami.

In comment 13506492 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

he alienated the biggest star in the nba and also a player who brought 3 championships and was draftex by heat and no one bats an eyelash.. dan gilbert wrote a letter about lebron and lebron still came back... chris paul was on a team with a racist owner... if you draft the right players no one gives a shit about the management

amazing how you keep telling yourself that what goes on at MSG is normal.

hornacek told the media that he has texted kp numerous times trying to reach him and said he is going over there for the world cha.pionships..

also phil supposedly met with janis so is the media telling us they lied about this meeting or are they just ignoring it to push their agenda...

and i say this everytime woj hates the knicks he is a mouthpiece for the nets, he is good at breaking stories because he has a source inside the nba league office...

have spoken to Houston about PBev, ugh, this leads to George Hill coming here doesn't it? lol

In comment 13506498 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

the Rat gets the benefit of the doubt. Phil Jackson does not. Sorry, that's how it works. Win big doing a role, you get the benefit of the doubt doing the same role somewhere else. Riley might be a scumbag but does anyone really question his ability to reel in big fish? Would anyone truly be shocked if he added a superstar over the next 2 off-seasons? Hayward etc. In fact, some are suggesting if Lebron doesn't go to LA, the superfriends may re-unite in Miami.

So true. Phil has always acted this way. It's nothing new. The only difference is that he was winning while doing it before.

He wants the Knicks to shop KP to the Clippers with Melo and Noah to hit the reset button. Maybe get Griffin in a sign-and-trade (yeah right) or DeAndre.

Mike Francesa needs to get a NY guy on the air.

In comment 13506500 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

hornacek told the media that he has texted kp numerous times trying to reach him and said he is going over there for the world cha.pionships.. also phil supposedly met with janis so is the media telling us they lied about this meeting or are they just ignoring it to push their agenda... and i say this everytime woj hates the knicks he is a mouthpiece for the nets, he is good at breaking stories because he has a source inside the nba league office...

Begley was on ESPN last night and flat out said the relationship is very poor right now so either Begley is a liar too or Woj's stories have some merit.

In comment 13506499 Enzo said:

Quote:

In comment 13506492 nygiants16 said: Quote: he alienated the biggest star in the nba and also a player who brought 3 championships and was draftex by heat and no one bats an eyelash.. dan gilbert wrote a letter about lebron and lebron still came back... chris paul was on a team with a racist owner... if you draft the right players no one gives a shit about the management amazing how you keep telling yourself that what goes on at MSG is normal.

so 5 years ago you thought the warriors would be the best team in the league?

if knicks hit on this draft pick you dont think it could be turned around?

In comment 13506502 Strahan91 said:

Quote:

In comment 13506498 DanMetroMan said: Quote: the Rat gets the benefit of the doubt. Phil Jackson does not. Sorry, that's how it works. Win big doing a role, you get the benefit of the doubt doing the same role somewhere else. Riley might be a scumbag but does anyone really question his ability to reel in big fish? Would anyone truly be shocked if he added a superstar over the next 2 off-seasons? Hayward etc. In fact, some are suggesting if Lebron doesn't go to LA, the superfriends may re-unite in Miami. So true. Phil has always acted this way. It's nothing new. The only difference is that he was winning while doing it before.

well, the other difference is that your duties as a coach are sort of different compared to that of a GM or team president. As a coach, you can play off his BS mind games as motivating players or whatever. If you're running the team, devaluing your star player (who you want to trade) and alienating your best young player is just moronic.

This core group dogged it two years in a row, and last year essentially quit on the coaches, yet Phil is being persecuted for exploring change? The players are not martyr's here. It's a losing group inside a toxic locker room. Change is necessary.

In comment 13506506 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

In comment 13506500 nygiants16 said: Quote: hornacek told the media that he has texted kp numerous times trying to reach him and said he is going over there for the world cha.pionships.. also phil supposedly met with janis so is the media telling us they lied about this meeting or are they just ignoring it to push their agenda... and i say this everytime woj hates the knicks he is a mouthpiece for the nets, he is good at breaking stories because he has a source inside the nba league office... Begley was on ESPN last night and flat out said the relationship is very poor right now so either Begley is a liar too or Woj's stories have some merit.

begely straight up lied yesterday, he said he talked to janis recently and made it look like he talked to him in the past couple of days and posted the same exact quotes from 3 months ago! go look for yourself...

and when the news first broke yesterday it was phil is willing to trade kp and was listening, then 2 hours later it was phil is not really listening and wants a crazy offer...

so basically it was a few teams called and phil listened that was the extent of them "willing" to trade kp...

phil wouldnt be doing his job if he didnt listen, he is not out looking for a deal...

and every quote from kp or janis is how they want to be i n new york and do not want to be traded, so what is it?

In comment 13506499 Enzo said:

Quote:

amazing how you keep telling yourself that what goes on at MSG is normal.

The issue is that good players/free agents aren't going to bad teams that DON'T have an issue with a GM talking negatively about players or a jerk owner (e.g. Brooklyn). If they can get good players in the draft and get the vets off the team, this will become an attractive option regardless of the 2 things people are saying are impediments.

If you think Phil is incapable of drafting or building a good roster, that's a separate issue.

In comment 13506500 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

hornacek told the media that he has texted kp numerous times trying to reach him and said he is going over there for the world cha.pionships.. also phil supposedly met with janis so is the media telling us they lied about this meeting or are they just ignoring it to push their agenda... and i say this everytime woj hates the knicks he is a mouthpiece for the nets, he is good at breaking stories because he has a source inside the nba league office...

Agree with you 1000%... This ENTIRE story is media driven. Don't believe everything that's being fed to you by people who have an axe to grind with the Knicks.

In comment 13506510 aimrocky said:

Quote:

This core group dogged it two years in a row, and last year essentially quit on the coaches, yet Phil is being persecuted for exploring change? The players are not martyr's here. It's a losing group inside a toxic locker room. Change is necessary.

do you think maybe the guy who put together this "core group" bears some responsibility? It's not like Rose was known as a good guy/team first player/quality human before he got here.

Melo has spent his whole career doing whatever the hell he wanted, not listening to coaches, playing hard when he felt like it, etc. I'm not Phil apologist but it's silly to blame him for what's gone on with Melo. I know two former players who played with Melo and both will tell you that he only cared about his stats. Guys would be upset after losses, some taking it harder than others but Melo never seemed to care and was always the exact same after a bad loss. This really irked his teammates.

i will be on the bandwagon of fire phil..

In comment 13506516 Strahan91 said:

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Melo has spent his whole career doing whatever the hell he wanted, not listening to coaches, playing hard when he felt like it, etc. I'm not Phil apologist but it's silly to blame him for what's gone on with Melo. I know two former players who played with Melo and both will tell you that he only cared about his stats. Guys would be upset after losses, some taking it harder than others but Melo never seemed to care and was always the exact same after a bad loss. This really irked his teammates.

I'm just spit-balling here, but if all of what you say about Melo is true...then maybe he's not the guy you give a five year near max deal with a no-trade clause and a trade kicker.

In comment 13506518 nygiants16 said:

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i will be on the bandwagon of fire phil..

like 31yr old noah or 30 yr old lee?

In comment 13506518 nygiants16 said:

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i will be on the bandwagon of fire phil..

he's been bringing in "old vets" since he got here. WTF?

In comment 13506520 Enzo said:

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In comment 13506516 Strahan91 said: Quote: Melo has spent his whole career doing whatever the hell he wanted, not listening to coaches, playing hard when he felt like it, etc. I'm not Phil apologist but it's silly to blame him for what's gone on with Melo. I know two former players who played with Melo and both will tell you that he only cared about his stats. Guys would be upset after losses, some taking it harder than others but Melo never seemed to care and was always the exact same after a bad loss. This really irked his teammates. I'm just spit-balling here, but if all of what you say about Melo is true...then maybe he's not the guy you give a five year near max deal with a no-trade clause and a trade kicker.

I totally agree with that. My bet is that was Dolan more than anything else though. Dolan forced Walsh to give up the farm to get him and wasn't going to lose him for nothing. I'm sure everyone in the organization thought that if the team decided to full on rebuild and weren't competitive that Melo would surely waive his no trade clause since he was getting his money anyways. Sort of amazing that he's being so picky and is totally fine wasting the rest of his career on a rebuilding team.

In comment 13506520 Enzo said:

Quote:

I'm just spit-balling here, but if all of what you say about Melo is true...then maybe he's not the guy you give a five year near max deal with a no-trade clause and a trade kicker.

ITA and I have no proof of this, but I truly believe that was more about Dolan than Phil. I think that was the only thing he asked of Phil before he took the job.

In comment 13506521 hitdog42 said:

Quote:

In comment 13506518 nygiants16 said: Quote: i will be on the bandwagon of fire phil.. like 31yr old noah or 30 yr old lee?

lee is not a bad contract...

and i am talking about building around kp, the time for building aroind melo is over, he tried it didnt work time to build for future...

He�s sitting there looking like De Niro in Casino. He�s looking like the boss. He�s looking like he�s seen it all, because he has.

Purely as a basketball fan, I just want to learn from this man.

So I listened.

I knew right away Pat was a real guy, because he wasn�t even asking me about basketball. He was asking me about life.

Then Pat says, �We�re going to get you in world-class shape. Not good shape. Not great shape. World-class shape.�

I mean, I�m in the NBA. In my mind, I�m already in good shape. But do I eat a Philly steak every now and then when I�m home? You know I do.

So Pat�s looking at me like, �Give us a season, and you�ll see. World-class.�

Even the way this man pronounces world-class is world-class, you know what I mean?

And then he says to me, �Tell me something about Dion that I don�t already know.

Not about basketball. About life.�

He's already had two chances to burn the team down and re-build it. Once the year he got here, he hand-picked everyone, and it flopped.

The second time, he had to have Noah, signed him to a deal everyone knew was complete garbage at the time, and took a flyer on Rose.

And that flopped too.

He has publicly embarrassed a player on the team to the point where the player's union president had to comment on it. He has alienated a top draft pick, who wanted to play here, to the point where he'd privately likely rather be anywhere else.

Nothing he has done here can be considered a success.

Begley reported out interest in Derrick Rose and everyone said "oh cmon". He clearly has sources unless you believe he randomly nailed that

In comment 13506505 bceagle05 said:

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He wants the Knicks to shop KP to the Clippers with Melo and Noah to hit the reset button. Maybe get Griffin in a sign-and-trade (yeah right) or DeAndre. Mike Francesa needs to get a NY guy on the air.

I dont know Winderman well, but my general feeling is that no group is more opposed to slow burning rebuilds than sports writers. They hate them to their core.

But in any event, that's a terrible proposal.

In comment 13506528 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

In comment 13506521 hitdog42 said: Quote: In comment 13506518 nygiants16 said: Quote: i will be on the bandwagon of fire phil.. like 31yr old noah or 30 yr old lee? lee is not a bad contract... and i am talking about building around kp, the time for building aroind melo is over, he tried it didnt work time to build for future...

agree lee is not a bad contract, but he is an old vet

have Josh Jackson #2 on their board and "not far" from Fultz. He won't be a Knick but Phil must see Pippen 2.0. I guess the off court stuff isn't a concern/big deal.

In comment 13506538 hitdog42 said:

Quote:

In comment 13506528 nygiants16 said: Quote: In comment 13506521 hitdog42 said: Quote: In comment 13506518 nygiants16 said: Quote: i will be on the bandwagon of fire phil.. like 31yr old noah or 30 yr old lee? lee is not a bad contract... and i am talking about building around kp, the time for building aroind melo is over, he tried it didnt work time to build for future... agree lee is not a bad contract, but he is an old vet

my point was he went for it last year it didnt work now its time to look to the fiture no more quick fixes...if he goes for the quick fix again i am done..

he is not trying to build around melo again...

and you do need a couple of old vets even when you are rebuilding, the problem is getting the right ones, lee seems like one of the right ones

In comment 13506533 DanMetroMan said:

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Begley reported out interest in Derrick Rose and everyone said "oh cmon". He clearly has sources unless you believe he randomly nailed that

begely has sources, and i even said yesterday oh shit begely is reporting it, but he contradicted himself and he posted old quotrs like they were knew to further the story and get clicks

is truly my final off-season caring about the Knicks under Phil Jackson. If he's chasing Redick, George Hill, PJ Tuckers there will surely be those on here defending "gradual improvement" but I'll watch for KP and be mostly inactive on here. Would = no chance they will ever be good.

i have never said phil has done a good job, his plan so far has failed miserably

In comment 13506514 Enzo said:

Quote:

In comment 13506510 aimrocky said: Quote: This core group dogged it two years in a row, and last year essentially quit on the coaches, yet Phil is being persecuted for exploring change? The players are not martyr's here. It's a losing group inside a toxic locker room. Change is necessary. do you think maybe the guy who put together this "core group" bears some responsibility? It's not like Rose was known as a good guy/team first player/quality human before he got here.

Rose played on winning teams his entire career, known for their grit and intensity. He came here with his partner from that team. They were winners until the teamed up with Carmelo.

Phil's biggest gaffe was re-signing Melo. He should have let him walk. Every move since has been tainted because of the Melo environment.

I have no idea how you guys still defend Jackson. I wish I shared that optimism of the Knicks and him. But what has he shown as an exec to give you that faith? KP was a great pick and Willy was a nice 2nd round pick. But he hasn't made one good signing or trade. Not one. The coaching has been a disaster and he's pulled off the impossible in worsening the Knicks reputation. His press conferences are laughable and his relationship with his 2 best players couldn't be worse. He also refuses to address the media. I won't even get into the triangle or Phil trying to part time coach.

Not to mention the Knicks are 80-167 in his 3 seasons. They have finished 15th, 13th and 12th in the Eastern Conference.

For the Phil defenders, I've love to know what gives you hope in Phil.

has to be any day.
what is his front office experience other then working as spokesperson for gilbert's company when in detroit?

where we want to be just competitive enough to maybe have a shot at the playoffs if everything went right and not bad enough to be at the top of the lottery, we'd have a shot at a Jackson or a Fultz.

We should be really damn thankful this draft is as deep as it is. Now watch us go and draft FN.

That's always been our only hope. Phil's biggest mistake was giving Melo the full no-trade. His best work has been drafting KP and Willy and keeping his future first rounders. All the other off-the-court shit, the free agent signings, the trades - it's just noise.

If Monk and Frank Mason (for example) are Knicks in 30 hours, the tone around here will be a lot different.

In comment 13506558 TyreeHelmet said:

Quote:

I have no idea how you guys still defend Jackson. I wish I shared that optimism of the Knicks and him. But what has he shown as an exec to give you that faith? KP was a great pick and Willy was a nice 2nd round pick. But he hasn't made one good signing or trade. Not one. The coaching has been a disaster and he's pulled off the impossible in worsening the Knicks reputation. His press conferences are laughable and his relationship with his 2 best players couldn't be worse. He also refuses to address the media. I won't even get into the triangle or Phil trying to part time coach. Not to mention the Knicks are 80-167 in his 3 seasons. They have finished 15th, 13th and 12th in the Eastern Conference. For the Phil defenders, I've love to know what gives you hope in Phil.

I wouldn't classify myself as a defender, but I'm not a hater either. IMO Carmelo (albeit a good guy) has poisoned this team by resisting the coaches requests to conform his style and it appears he has gained KP's loyalty as well. I think we're in an addition by subtraction situation with him. He really needs off this roster for us to move forward. Bringing him back will be Phil's MAJOR downfall.

In comment 13506563 hitdog42 said:

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has to be any day. what is his front office experience other then working as spokesperson for gilbert's company when in detroit?

Windhorst said his second interview is happening today, so it won't be long now.

Phil defenders tend to be the same people as "I just want to see good basketball" vs. the "I just want to see a top 2 seed/title contender" people.

In comment 13506550 aimrocky said:

Quote:

In comment 13506514 Enzo said: Quote: In comment 13506510 aimrocky said: Quote: This core group dogged it two years in a row, and last year essentially quit on the coaches, yet Phil is being persecuted for exploring change? The players are not martyr's here. It's a losing group inside a toxic locker room. Change is necessary. do you think maybe the guy who put together this "core group" bears some responsibility? It's not like Rose was known as a good guy/team first player/quality human before he got here. Rose played on winning teams his entire career, known for their grit and intensity. He came here with his partner from that team. They were winners until the teamed up with Carmelo. Phil's biggest gaffe was re-signing Melo. He should have let him walk. Every move since has been tainted because of the Melo environment.

Is Melo responsible for Noah playing 46 games this year, or Derrick Rose having been a shitty defender in Chicago after his knee injuries sapped him of lateral movement?

The Melo hate is absolutely ridiculous. For some reason those outside of basketball despise the guy whereas so many people within the game have good stuff to say about him. I really thought for a while the issue was that people who thought that Melo was a top 3-5 talent were mad at him for not being that (or in George Karl's case, for not performing like that). But I think it just goes deeper. People just love to hate on Melo.

He is what he is. A scorer and rebounder, bridging the iso era and the modern era. He isnt much else, and particularly not a consistent defender. He was never good enough to be the best player on a title team, but he went to the playoffs as the best player on his team for 10 or 11 straight seasons. He's not a losing player. He's a declining, aging star.

then I'm done with him as well. I could understand it up until this point, but now it doesn't make sense. It's time to build around KP.

In comment 13506565 bceagle05 said:

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That's always been our only hope. Phil's biggest mistake was giving Melo the full no-trade. His best work has been drafting KP and Willy and keeping his future first rounders. All the other off-the-court shit, the free agent signings, the trades - it's just noise. If Monk and Frank Mason (for example) are Knicks in 30 hours, the tone around here will be a lot different.

Phil's biggest mistake was the Noah contract.

Well said about Melo. I'm a huge fan of the player but also thinks it time to move on from him. With that said, the blame he gets is ridiculous. In Phils 3 years he's put complete garbage around him- outside of KP who was a 19 year old rookie. I mean Jose Calderon was the 2nd option for 2 seasons.

but I'm not sure it's had the consequences of the Melo no-trade. If we had the freedom to trade Melo, we could've done so for a nice return when he was still in his prime. Could've really moved the franchise forward. Now we're hoping for something other than Austin Rivers or a buyout.

In comment 13506566 aimrocky said:

Quote:

I wouldn't classify myself as a defender, but I'm not a hater either. IMO Carmelo (albeit a good guy) has poisoned this team by resisting the coaches requests to conform his style and it appears he has gained KP's loyalty as well. I think we're in an addition by subtraction situation with him. He really needs off this roster for us to move forward. Bringing him back will be Phil's MAJOR downfall.

For all the talk about how Melo resisted the triangle, which is probably true, the Knicks problem wasnt offense. They were middle of the pack in offense. Melo, Rose, and Jennings wouldnt/couldnt defend shit. Willy wasnt far behind, and KOQ was limited. Kuz didnt defend well, and Noah got hurt and was really only effective for a 6-10 week stretch. Lee I think was overrated as a defender, and he and Thomas are soft defenders. The whole team is soft on defense -- I dont think anyone viewed us as a pain to play.

but I'm not a "Melo hater" either. I can appreciate someone wanting to be in NY when stars like LeBron embarrassed us when the idea of being in NY was presented.

When Phil came in, his entire program was based around team ball, and he's asked Melo to conform. Melo wouldn't, and that's my problem with him. He's always resisted the program, and when your biggest star isn't on board with the program the rest of the team follows. There's no ill will towards him. I'd root for him in his next spot (sans playing with LeBron), but he needs to be off this roster so Phil can fully implement his program.

Noah move was pretty scary. Phil, cough, cough Rosen defended the move stating Noah was the perfect big for the triangle however.... 1. We weren't really running the triangle last season 2. It was almost as if Phil didn't notice the 2 years of decline or age of Noah when giving him an offer. Sure, in his prime Joakim Noah might have been a great addition but he was paid as if he were coming off a strong season when in fact 2014-2015 15.3 PER, 2015-2016 14.1 PER and 96 total games played (not exactly a durable player even in his prime). 3. People defend the Rose move as "low cost" pointing "only" to Grant (I fully admit I am not/was not a Grant fan) but Rose also allowed Phil to give out the Noah deal instead of having Lopez 2 for 28 left (easy to move) we have Noah 3 years 54 left.

In comment 13506550 aimrocky said:

Quote:

In comment 13506514 Enzo said: Quote: In comment 13506510 aimrocky said: Quote: This core group dogged it two years in a row, and last year essentially quit on the coaches, yet Phil is being persecuted for exploring change? The players are not martyr's here. It's a losing group inside a toxic locker room. Change is necessary. do you think maybe the guy who put together this "core group" bears some responsibility? It's not like Rose was known as a good guy/team first player/quality human before he got here. Rose played on winning teams his entire career, known for their grit and intensity. He came here with his partner from that team. They were winners until the teamed up with Carmelo. Phil's biggest gaffe was re-signing Melo. He should have let him walk. Every move since has been tainted because of the Melo environment.

those teams also won a lot of games (and a playoff series) without Rose. Attributing their "grit and intensity" to him is ridiculous.

In comment 13506597 TyreeHelmet said:

Quote:

Well said about Melo. I'm a huge fan of the player but also thinks it time to move on from him. With that said, the blame he gets is ridiculous. In Phils 3 years he's put complete garbage around him- outside of KP who was a 19 year old rookie. I mean Jose Calderon was the 2nd option for 2 seasons.

Yeah, I think it's time to move on. But Im not pulling my hair out to get Melo off this team at any cost, e.g. a buyout or trading for Austin Rivers and other trash.

But Melo lost me when he made his priorities clear that he's staying here for the comfort zone, not for trying to build a winner. I'm fine with that, but I'm not going to defend him like a fan anymore.

I defended Phil up until this past season. The Noah deal was shaky at the time and panned out exactly as the doomsayers predicted if not worse. I thought getting Rose was inspired. Not Phil's fault Rose dogged it. It IS Phil's fault for forcing Rose to play in an offense he is not suited to. Should not have bothered to trade for him if this was the plan.

In comment 13506603 Deej said:

Quote:

In comment 13506566 aimrocky said: Quote: I wouldn't classify myself as a defender, but I'm not a hater either. IMO Carmelo (albeit a good guy) has poisoned this team by resisting the coaches requests to conform his style and it appears he has gained KP's loyalty as well. I think we're in an addition by subtraction situation with him. He really needs off this roster for us to move forward. Bringing him back will be Phil's MAJOR downfall. For all the talk about how Melo resisted the triangle, which is probably true, the Knicks problem wasnt offense. They were middle of the pack in offense. Melo, Rose, and Jennings wouldnt/couldnt defend shit. Willy wasnt far behind, and KOQ was limited. Kuz didnt defend well, and Noah got hurt and was really only effective for a 6-10 week stretch. Lee I think was overrated as a defender, and he and Thomas are soft defenders. The whole team is soft on defense -- I dont think anyone viewed us as a pain to play.

In fairness KOQ rated extremely well in terms of rim protection (like one of the better rim protectors in the NBA by the numbers). He's flawed for sure but I suspect on a good team/solid defense at the 1/2/3 that he would "look" like a solid defensive player vs. what we have in front of him.

As for guys like Lee and Noah, I think there comes a point where you are a fat cat and paid so if the team isn't especially good "why bother"? in terms of giving up your body (not defending it) just the mindset I suspect that kicks in.

say my biggest reasons beyond simply hoping for a rebuild, high pick next season is I think you need to have players that lead by example and while I doubt Melo or Rose "say" don't play defense, how can we expect guys like KP and Willy to be rugged all out defenders when superstar former MVP types are not?

In comment 13506604 aimrocky said:

Quote:

but I'm not a "Melo hater" either. I can appreciate someone wanting to be in NY when stars like LeBron embarrassed us when the idea of being in NY was presented. When Phil came in, his entire program was based around team ball, and he's asked Melo to conform. Melo wouldn't, and that's my problem with him. He's always resisted the program, and when your biggest star isn't on board with the program the rest of the team follows. There's no ill will towards him. I'd root for him in his next spot (sans playing with LeBron), but he needs to be off this roster so Phil can fully implement his program.

Team ball is a nonsense buzz word. Do you see Melo's teammates throwing him under the bus? KP loves the guy. Show me the forward guy playing "team ball" with shitty teammates like Melo has had.

When Phil came in his entire program was to hire an unfit, unready coach, spout zen nonsense and force an offense onto a team in transition, and then utterly fail to put together a roster capable of making the playoffs. Part of Phil's program was to max and NTC Melo.

The excuse making for Phil needs to stop. He failed to recognize the shit show in year one, correctly stripped down the roster after failure was forced on him in year 2 (Melo got hurt) and had a nice offseason with KP and Rolo, and then went back to the failure well in year 3 with bullshit notions of competing with Chicago's garbage.

It's everyone else's fault but the guy in charge. Melo resisted Phil's team building -- that's must cost us 20 wins a season at least! Phil held onto all the picks, he's such a hero!

right on the money

source: ice cube hahahahaha

Team ball is a nonsense buzz word. Do you see Melo's teammates throwing him under the bus? KP loves the guy. Show me the forward guy playing "team ball" with shitty teammates like Melo has had.

When Phil came in his entire program was to hire an unfit, unready coach, spout zen nonsense and force an offense onto a team in transition, and then utterly fail to put together a roster capable of making the playoffs. Part of Phil's program was to max and NTC Melo.

The excuse making for Phil needs to stop. He failed to recognize the shit show in year one, correctly stripped down the roster after failure was forced on him in year 2 (Melo got hurt) and had a nice offseason with KP and Rolo, and then went back to the failure well in year 3 with bullshit notions of competing with Chicago's garbage.

It's everyone else's fault but the guy in charge. Melo resisted Phil's team building -- that's must cost us 20 wins a season at least! Phil held onto all the picks, he's such a hero! [/quote]

Spot on Deej. One of my biggest disappointments has been Phil's failure to admit mistakes and to learn from them. It's everyone else's fault but his own.

In comment 13506624 Deej said:

Quote:

Team ball is a nonsense buzz word. Do you see Melo's teammates throwing him under the bus? KP loves the guy. Show me the forward guy playing "team ball" with shitty teammates like Melo has had. When Phil came in his entire program was to hire an unfit, unready coach, spout zen nonsense and force an offense onto a team in transition, and then utterly fail to put together a roster capable of making the playoffs. Part of Phil's program was to max and NTC Melo. The excuse making for Phil needs to stop. He failed to recognize the shit show in year one, correctly stripped down the roster after failure was forced on him in year 2 (Melo got hurt) and had a nice offseason with KP and Rolo, and then went back to the failure well in year 3 with bullshit notions of competing with Chicago's garbage. It's everyone else's fault but the guy in charge. Melo resisted Phil's team building -- that's must cost us 20 wins a season at least! Phil held onto all the picks, he's such a hero!

I recall STAT taking shots at Melo (and some other guys) for being jealous of Jeremy Lin. I also recall STAT's frustration with the offense (Melo taking as many shots as the rest of the starters combined) being the cause of his broken hand during the Miami playoff series.

I'm not "anti-Melo". I'm 100% "anti-Melo as a victim". And 99.9% of the people trying to make Melo a victim are just looking for an easy excuse to criticize Phil. Where were the people who're trying to paint Melo as a victim when he was pushing Mike D'Antoni out the door? I find it hilarious that after years and years of Melo being criticized to no end by Knicks fans that he now has to be seen as the poor victim of evil Phil. It's ridiculous. I'm not giving Phil a pass, but I'm sure as heck not giving Melo one either.

now that is the most correct statement here. Deej said something earlier to the fact that people outside basketball hate Melo, but people inside have good things to say about him. Who? Karl bashed him, D'Antoni bashed him, Stat bashed him, Jeremy Lin left because of him, as much as we all have our pitchforks out at Phil Jackson both he and Jeff Hornacek have bashed him. But that doesnt fit the narrative of its all Phil's fault. Cant it just be everyone's fault? The Knicks are a dumpster fire from top to bottom. Dolan is the worst owner in the sport, Phil is a bad GM, Hornacek is a bad coach, and Melo doesn't take to coaching and is not a leading player. My biggest fear is the ilk of this franchise is going to cover itself and drag down the one good thing that's happened to it in the last 15 years in Porzingis.

In comment 13506621 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

say my biggest reasons beyond simply hoping for a rebuild, high pick next season is I think you need to have players that lead by example and while I doubt Melo or Rose "say" don't play defense, how can we expect guys like KP and Willy to be rugged all out defenders when superstar former MVP types are not?

My sentiments exactly. It's easy for role players to follow the leader and Melo/Rose made it easy on those guys to slack off.

Dan: Agree on KOQ. You put him out there with 4 good teammates and most of what you'll notice is that the guy makes a ton of players per minute. With bad teammates his decision making is highlighted.

shockeyisthebest8056: Yeah, STAT did do that. STAT also got pissy and weird on the way out -- Im not sure who to believe. If Melo was the bad guy people want to paint him as, I'd think there would be more "bad Melo" takes. The Team USA guys love him and want to play with him (albeit none signed here). KP loves him. Chauncey said trade Love for him. I wouldnt consider Melo to be the poor victim of the evil Phil if all Phil was doing was shopping him; rather I'd be frustrated that Melo wouldnt wait his NTC. I just think Phil dogging him publicly to get him to waive the NTC Phil gave him is a dick move. Over the line, especially when the CBA forbids Melo from responding in kind (not his nature anyway)

Triangle: for all the talk about Melo resisting the offense, it really needs to be said: no one ran the triangle here. There were "elements" of the triangle which is a bit of nonsense. People werent doing the cuts and runs the triangle called for. Was Melo a blackhole? Sure he was. Where were the other guys passing and moving in the triangle? Rose had 17 shots and 5 assists per 36. KP 16.4 shots and 1.6 assists per 36. Melo's ratio wasnt great (20:3). But the year before he had a career high 4.3 assists/36.

The triangle failed because we didnt run the triangle. We didnt have players who ran the triangle, Melo or no Melo. We did not have the shooters for the triangle or the passing, back to the basket bigs for the triangle. We didnt have a head coach who played in or previously coached the triangle. We had no consistent commitment to the triangle. Oh, and if it was important, they should have benched Melo to send a message, especially after the season was lost and management was committed to berating and trading him anyway.

Quote:

The Team USA guys love him and want to play with him (albeit none signed here).

I've noticed that as well, and I suspect that those guys all like him as a buddy but don't necessarily want to play with him.

said he has heard knicks are trying to trade up to get him...

wonder if its melo for love and flip love type of deal

In comment 13506684 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

said he has heard knicks are trying to trade up to get him... wonder if its melo for love and flip love type of deal

That would suit me just fine.

to move up for jackson?

I think the Knicks will get a good player if they stay at 8, and they're going to need more young talent than KP plus whoever they end up with in this draft. KP + Monk + another top ten pick (hopefully top 5) next season > KP + Jackson.

In comment 13506678 Ira said:

Quote:

Quote: �It is different,�� Porzingis said in Spain. �It works if everyone believes in it, if everybody knows where to move and where to go and what to do and reads the situation well. You can�t do it with everybody. You have to have the right players, have to have players with sharp minds, that can read the game quickly and make the right cut and pass. I haven�t really been a part of a really good triangle team. We always had some trouble a bit. We�ll see what we do next season.��

Bye Derrick.

would not but I also wouldn't lose my mind (unless it was next year when we will likely blow). At least it would represent an aggressive move for a young talent.

only because there is no foreseeable time where we won't be a < 30 win team. While Jackson is good, giving up a lottery pick for him over whomever is there at 8 seems like a risk that always seems to go against the NYKs.

In comment 13506542 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

have Josh Jackson #2 on their board and "not far" from Fultz. He won't be a Knick but Phil must see Pippen 2.0. I guess the off court stuff isn't a concern/big deal.

Looks like this was on point.

In comment 13506678 Ira said:

Quote:

Quote: �It is different,�� Porzingis said in Spain. �It works if everyone believes in it, if everybody knows where to move and where to go and what to do and reads the situation well. You can�t do it with everybody. You have to have the right players, have to have players with sharp minds, that can read the game quickly and make the right cut and pass. I haven�t really been a part of a really good triangle team. We always had some trouble a bit. We�ll see what we do next season.��

This seems accurate and not negative, just factual.

So while what he says can't be discounted, I don't know how much water it holds.

It's really easy for some people to buy in to the innuendo that somehow (then) a five-time all star, All-nba player, and olympic champion would be "jealous" of a two-week fame streak for Jeremy Lin, but when you take stock of the entirety of Carmelo Anthony's career as a Knick, when has he ever gone hunting for headlines or trying to make a backpage?

In comment 13506689 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

to move up for jackson?

I'd give up a future first for a lot of things. As long as it has reasonable and appropriate protections on it.

In comment 13506659 Steve in Greenwich said:

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now that is the most correct statement here. Deej said something earlier to the fact that people outside basketball hate Melo, but people inside have good things to say about him. Who? Karl bashed him, D'Antoni bashed him, Stat bashed him, Jeremy Lin left because of him, as much as we all have our pitchforks out at Phil Jackson both he and Jeff Hornacek have bashed him. But that doesnt fit the narrative of its all Phil's fault. Cant it just be everyone's fault? The Knicks are a dumpster fire from top to bottom. Dolan is the worst owner in the sport, Phil is a bad GM, Hornacek is a bad coach, and Melo doesn't take to coaching and is not a leading player. My biggest fear is the ilk of this franchise is going to cover itself and drag down the one good thing that's happened to it in the last 15 years in Porzingis.

Dantoni said STAT and Melo pushed out Lin. Neither one of them wanted to play in Lin ball per MDA, i.e. where Lin was constantly diving to the hoop. MDA said they both resented Lin. Then Amare comes out and says Melo was jealous and forced out Lin. Sounds like a soap opera. MDA blamed his players on the way out. Which is fine, Im sure no one was blameless.

Karl is a shitty guy. Period. He wrote a book taking a run at Melo, KMart, Lillard and others. His players tend to hate him. He yaps his mouth every time he gets fired. MDA's POV I care about, admitting he has bias b/c he wants to explain why things didnt work out. Karl's opinion I disregard.

There are plenty of guys who loved playing with Melo, as my post identified.
Link - ( New Window )

be far less upset with Phil rolling the dice on Jackson (even giving up a pick with protections) than other moves we could make.

In comment 13506675 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

Quote: The Team USA guys love him and want to play with him (albeit none signed here). I've noticed that as well, and I suspect that those guys all like him as a buddy but don't necessarily want to play with him.

I thought it was worth mentioning. Counterpoint is that the threesome went to Miami. I bet it would have been Melo over Bosh if not for Melo's contract and Melo was willing to take less (he wasnt). I dont know how many other chances there were. Paul stayed in a good situation. Knicks were a mess when LeBron moved back to CLE, and I think there was a real unfinished business motivation with him.

If Melo was willing to leave those guys all wanted and want him.

Either you run triangle yes, or you run triangle no. You run triangle 'guess so'..,squish like grape

was different last summer, I think there's a good chance Wade ends up here.

but that's a story for another day.

Jackson/KP is a better 4/5 combo in today's NBA than KP/Willy, but ultimately I'd keep all of our picks for now.

Now about that Melo-for-Love idea....

Butler is not coming to Cleveland, and George is LA-bound. Maybe Phil can actually outsmart a GM with 10 minutes on the job.

In comment 13506712 Enzo said:

Quote:

was different last summer, I think there's a good chance Wade ends up here.

melo said this, he said when he talked to wade wade told him he was going back to miami

I'd love for them to land him. Short of KP, I don't see us getting to #2. Miracle working to get there, without giving up next years #1.

I know this is incredibly far fetched but its fun to think about it. This is contingent on Jackson being available at 4.

What about a 4 team trade?

Cavs get- Melo and Paul George

Knicks get- 4th overall pick from Phoenix, Brandon Knight,
Channing Frye

Pacers get - 8th overall pick from NYK, Iman Shumpert

Suns get- Kevin Love

Knicks are essentially taking on salary and trading Melo to move up 4 spots to get there guy. See link for ESPN trade machine. More picks or players could be added but thats the framework.

Who says no to that deal?
ESPN - ( New Window )

In comment 13506542 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

have Josh Jackson #2 on their board and "not far" from Fultz. He won't be a Knick but Phil must see Pippen 2.0. I guess the off court stuff isn't a concern/big deal.

Dan, I have a good friend who is a KU alum and Jayhawk fanatic. So I watched KU the past season, more college ball than I've watched in a while. I think JJ is more athletic, nimble, and creative with the ball than Pippen; JJ can snake over, under, around and through the defender, under control, and he's just a frosh, and he is driven. Maybe not Frank Mason III driven, but he has will and desire. Pippen I think was stronger and thicker than JJ will ever be, I think, and more of a force on the boards. But as I posted way earlier in this thread, I think JJ will be the stud emerging from this group. Unfortunate the Knicks have no shot.

In comment 13506771 TyreeHelmet said:

Quote:

I know this is incredibly far fetched but its fun to think about it. This is contingent on Jackson being available at 4. What about a 4 team trade? Cavs get- Melo and Paul George Knicks get- 4th overall pick from Phoenix, Brandon Knight, Channing Frye Pacers get - 8th overall pick from NYK, Iman Shumpert Suns get- Kevin Love Knicks are essentially taking on salary and trading Melo to move up 4 spots to get there guy. See link for ESPN trade machine. More picks or players could be added but thats the framework. Who says no to that deal? ESPN - ( New Window )

i listened back jackson was specific saying knicks were going for a top 3 pick

Maybe with butler wanting to stay and George adamant about LA Boston is circling back to melo. You aren't getting 3 for Melo but maybe Melo and 8 for 3, crowder, filler, and the pick Boston got from Philly?

is the buzz. Bill Simmons is pretty sure he's the pick.

Jackson available at #4.

In comment 13506773 ColHowPepper said:

Quote:

In comment 13506542 DanMetroMan said: Quote: have Josh Jackson #2 on their board and "not far" from Fultz. He won't be a Knick but Phil must see Pippen 2.0. I guess the off court stuff isn't a concern/big deal. Dan, I have a good friend who is a KU alum and Jayhawk fanatic. So I watched KU the past season, more college ball than I've watched in a while. I think JJ is more athletic, nimble, and creative with the ball than Pippen; JJ can snake over, under, around and through the defender, under control, and he's just a frosh, and he is driven. Maybe not Frank Mason III driven, but he has will and desire. Pippen I think was stronger and thicker than JJ will ever be, I think, and more of a force on the boards. But as I posted way earlier in this thread, I think JJ will be the stud emerging from this group. Unfortunate the Knicks have no shot.

I'm a big time, big time Jackson fan. I still have him 3rd (just because I think we badly need a PG) but I think Jackson has a legit shot to be the best player in this draft. He has "it". He's the kind of player that in the "old" days would stay 3 years and people would be frothing at the mouth at the finished product. I was mostly making the Pippen comp in jest given I was told flat out Phil "loves" him and didn't have Fultz "clear" 1st.

Forfeit Willy with 8 for Jackson if he fell to 4. KP and Jackson could be an awesome, awesome combo

but I know how popular he is. I'd absolutely make that move. KP would be even more pissed.

in a couple of spots that it may end up being a buyers market at the PG spot this summer. Wouldn't shock me to see Phil try to land one of the available vets with our cap room. Especially if he drafts a wing.

He might fall out of the top 5

Possibly Fox going #2

Ball and Jackson could slide a bit..

Sounds like Phil would want Jackson, but I'd prefer Fox.

In comment 13506790 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

Forfeit Willy with 8 for Jackson if he fell to 4. KP and Jackson could be an awesome, awesome combo

I'd do that in a heartbeat.

And move up for Jackson. Would moving Lee for a late first open up enough cap space to make a run at a guy like Lowry?

In comment 13506805 Mike in NJ said:

Quote:

And move up for Jackson. Would moving Lee for a late first open up enough cap space to make a run at a guy like Lowry?

Lowry's max from us would be something nuts like 4/150. I don't think moving just Lee gives us enough room.

.

In comment 13506817 Enzo said:

Quote:

In comment 13506805 Mike in NJ said: Quote: And move up for Jackson. Would moving Lee for a late first open up enough cap space to make a run at a guy like Lowry? Lowry's max from us would be something nuts like 4/150. I don't think moving just Lee gives us enough room.

Yikes, no thanks at that price anyway. Didn't realize it was that high.

In comment 13506790 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

Forfeit Willy with 8 for Jackson if he fell to 4. KP and Jackson could be an awesome, awesome combo

That's a really stiff price. I was Willy-skeptical last summer (and gave you a hard time about him!) but now Im a believer. Per 36 of 16p - 13.6r - 2.6a- 1b - 1.1s, good shooting and FT shooting. Has really high BBIQ and great hands/feel around the net. Amazingly had a positive net ortg vs drtg last year on this team. Really the only hangup is the defense. Euro bigs just tend to take a few years on that end, for whatever reason.

If Willy was in this draft, knowing what we know and seeing his contract, he'd be a top 10 pick. I think BOS would trade down to 5-6 and take him there. He's more valuable to me than Markkanen (who is 20), the likely first pure 4 or 5 to go tomorrow.

If Phil thinks he can take 8 and Willy and get a Scottie Pippen, so be it. But Im not trading Willy just to get a marginally better prospect. The difference between Tatum/Fox/Isaac and Monk/Smith to me isnt more significant that the difference between Okafor/Russell and KP/Mudiay in 2015, at least as we perceived it. And KP ended up better than the 2-3 picks.

celtics interested in trading down for smith jr

In comment 13506830 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

celtics interested in trading down for smith jr

That makes sense. They can gamble on his knees and have a good coach and winning atmosphere to acculturate him to the NBA. Its a good atmosphere for a player to learn his craft -- Im really at a loss as to why several prospects seem against the Celts.

But WTF are they trading down to get? They cant roster half the picks/prospects they have, and I honestly dont think Ainge is going move for a star.

doesn't really make much sense.

In comment 13506835 RAIN said:

Quote:

doesn't really make much sense.

Isiah is a free agent after next season, has a max of $200 million, and just suffered a serious hip injury. It makes a ton of sense.

he may not even be on that team opening day. Ainge is ruthless. Which you need to be.

like Phil Jackson will be doing an interview on MSG tonight at 9.

In comment 13506846 Steve in Greenwich said:

Quote:

like Phil Jackson will be doing an interview on MSG tonight at 9.

Yep. On Knicks Night Live.

Michael Scotto‏Verified account @MikeAScotto
Source: New Orleans Pelicans guard Tim Frazier has been traded to the Washington Wizards in exchange for the No. 52 pick.

spurs talking to kings about aldridge for one of their first round picks

In comment 13506864 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

spurs talking to kings about aldridge for one of their first round picks

Don't do it Vlade!

In comment 13506839 Enzo said:

Quote:

In comment 13506835 RAIN said: Quote: doesn't really make much sense. Isiah is a free agent after next season, has a max of $200 million, and just suffered a serious hip injury. It makes a ton of sense.

I stand corrected. I didn't realize his Hip was a such a problem, damn. Giving him the max probably isn't wise, but he was such a huge part of their run.

When there are dozens of questions and the questions center around a losing culture and what's wrong with this player or what did that player do or which player was wrong or whatever, the answer to all of those questions comes down to one simple word:

Leadership. Melo isn't changing his game or taking too many shots??? Wahhhh??? Here's an idea; coach the guy!! Make him fucking work and change his game or sit his ass on the bench!!! Brian leech was benched!! Lawrence Taylor was chewed out by parcells. Lawrence Taylor!! Not melo. Let him do his thing because he's got a NTC. Woopy damn dooo!!! Sorry ass fucking team....

Dolan meddles when he shouldn't. Doesn't meddle when he should. He's too loyal at times and at other times too busy or quick to go scorched earth.

Leadership. Phil is a disaster of unmitigated proportions. I only pray that he doesn't do any long term damage to the knicks and only fucks things up for present day. Please don't trade any picks for garbage and don't dish out anymore god awful long term contracts. Hit rock bottom again this season and maybe he will get fired and we can go from there.

In comment 13506847 Anakim said:

Quote:

In comment 13506846 Steve in Greenwich said: Quote: like Phil Jackson will be doing an interview on MSG tonight at 9. Yep. On Knicks Night Live.

Theme will be: State of the Knicks and Camelo's mama a bitch

if Melo is breaking your offense or not giving you enough defensive effort, sit him. Consequences. Or dont, but then the message you're sending is "yeah, we dont have to horses to run a balanced offense so Melo has to volume shoot, and then we get that he's spent and cant D up (which he doesnt want to do anyway".

No one benched Melo because the quote has basically been true for his career. He has HAD to be the offense most of the time.

Sit him down and tell him you're playing the 6th man role. This team is going to revolve around KP and the kids and shut your fucking mouth. Don't like it there melo? Waive you're ntc or pound salt. And everyone better get ready to run in camp because that's all the knicks should be worried about. Offense my ass. Run. And run some more. Coaches here or softer than twinkles. My god work these slobs.

In comment 13506879 djm said:

Quote:

Sit him down and tell him you're playing the 6th man role. This team is going to revolve around KP and the kids and shut your fucking mouth. Don't like it there melo? Waive you're ntc or pound salt. And everyone better get ready to run in camp because that's all the knicks should be worried about. Offense my ass. Run. And run some more. Coaches here or softer than twinkles. My god work these slobs.

If this ever happened the narrative would be the Knicks are unfairly treating their players.

I may puke

He didn't deny that KP is untouchable. He said that he never had a player not show up to an exit meeting.

He's pissed.

In comment 13506908 Anakim said:

Quote:

I may puke

They better be getting a whole hell of a lot with that top 4 pick.

the exit meeting really huet he has tried to talk to kp, needs som repairing..

he also said they are listening, if they get an offer of 2 starters and draft picks it may be something they have to think about it, have to do whats best for team

He said the 8th pick will hopefully be an eventual starter

but he's always been a massive ego.

The owner doesn't care, he hires an egomaniac unfit for the position to run the organization into the ground.

Fuck this, I went to college in Philly so I'm going to root for the Sixers instead.

What a sorry ass organization.

In comment 13506913 bceagle05 said:

Quote:

He's pissed.

yeah he seems mad and didnt like it..

i think if boston offered brown, 3 and a future first i think he would do it...

.

but he just said kp needs to grow up never heard of a player skipping the exit meetings...

i guess josh jackson was not lying huh

but let's admit he has been a spoiled punk. Him blowing off the exit interview was a joke & disrespecting arguably the greatest coach of all time in the sport is an awful look.

but that one was scary. Hopefully this stuff with KP is just a machismo, and he's not doing something grotesquely stupid.

In comment 13506936 bceagle05 said:

Quote:

but that one was scary. Hopefully this stuff with KP is just a machismo, and he's not doing something grotesquely stupid.

he didnt hold back

That interview makes me sick. KP is going to end up on the Celtics and it's not going to be some monster package. 2 starters and draft picks... great.

Let me get this straight Phil- DRose skips an NBA game without notifying his team but Phils says they will consider bringing him back. But KP skips an exit interview and it's time to trade your 21 year old budding star.

This offseason is going to be disaster. Phil will trade KP and is going to sign vets to compete this year.

I can say as a manager I would not tolerate an employee skipping a meeting with me because they were "unhappy" . I love porzingas but that is completely not acceptable behavior from an employee. He has a lot of growing up to do. Now saying that I hope he remains in a Knicks uniform but at the end of the day I don't care how good you are of you can't meet the expectations of the company and do what is required of you then I will replace you

If it's the Nets 1 (and I'm a huge fan) he goes!

And to hell with all of this constant, unthinking, blindly pro-management bullshit I read on these threads. KP is one of the workers in any industry with the power to tell incompetent management to fuck off. Good for him. If KP is traded because of Phil's ego, fuck the Knicks. I'm done.

In comment 13506958 Carl in CT said:

Quote:

If it's the Nets 1 (and I'm a huge fan) he goes!

That's the only trade I'd make. I've said that from the beginning. Everything else is too risky, especially if we're doing this for Jackson. I'd rather have Ball or Fox.

Maybe the conspiracy that Phil secretly hates the Knicks and is actually here to finish the franchise off and steal money is true. And in reality he knows exactly what he's doing.

Who knows. With the horrific, getting into worse than Isiah territory, job he's done...who is to say it isn't accurate.

Who are these "young up and coming players" and "youth" Phil is referencing? He's "rebuilding with youth". This man is delusional.

Get ready for Avery Bradley Jae Crowder and the 3rd pick for Porzingis. Phil can get the the Knicks to the 7th seed!

But don't worry "Phil knows what he's doing but it hasn't been reflected in the record".

Rock bottom.

In comment 13506977 TyreeHelmet said:

Quote:

Who are these "young up and coming players" and "youth" Phil is referencing? He's "rebuilding with youth". This man is delusional. Get ready for Avery Bradley Jae Crowder and the 3rd pick for Porzingis. Phil can get the the Knicks to the 7th seed! But don't worry "Phil knows what he's doing but it hasn't been reflected in the record". Rock bottom.

now that, I actually think is fair value.

In comment 13506955 g56blue10 said:

Quote:

I can say as a manager I would not tolerate an employee skipping a meeting with me because they were "unhappy" . I love porzingas but that is completely not acceptable behavior from an employee. He has a lot of growing up to do. Now saying that I hope he remains in a Knicks uniform but at the end of the day I don't care how good you are of you can't meet the expectations of the company and do what is required of you then I will replace you

Porzingis is nothing like your employees. He did not choose to work for the Knicks. He would quit today and go to a competitor if he could, Im sure. He's also a unique talent -- literally, there are maybe 2-3 guys alive who could maybe replicate his skill set. Maybe.

So why would we possibly talk about him like he's a regular old employee. Does a Hollywood producers talk about Tom Cruise and the assistant key grip the same? Does the head of a law firm talk about his star rainmaker and a file clerk the same? No.

They sink even lower.

In comment 13506990 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

They sink even lower.

Seriously even if the trade doesn't happen, I want Phil gone. He's a failure as an executive.

In comment 13506916 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

the exit meeting really huet he has tried to talk to kp, needs som repairing.. he also said they are listening, if they get an offer of 2 starters and draft picks it may be something they have to think about it, have to do whats best for team

One wonders if Phil's "best for the team" decision tree includes the option of keeping the unicorn player, and losing the team president who has flopped in his 3 years on the job (with no prior experience).

It's funny how best for the team doesnt include firing himself.

In comment 13506981 Bill L said:

Quote:

In comment 13506977 TyreeHelmet said: Quote: Who are these "young up and coming players" and "youth" Phil is referencing? He's "rebuilding with youth". This man is delusional. Get ready for Avery Bradley Jae Crowder and the 3rd pick for Porzingis. Phil can get the the Knicks to the 7th seed! But don't worry "Phil knows what he's doing but it hasn't been reflected in the record". Rock bottom. now that, I actually think is fair value.

Sure it is. A guy with top 10 NBA upside traded for mediocrity. What's not fair about that?

---Celtics fans everywhere

In comment 13506935 Sean said:

Quote:

but let's admit he has been a spoiled punk. Him blowing off the exit interview was a joke & disrespecting arguably the greatest coach of all time in the sport is an awful look.

One datapoint makes him a punk? What is the evidence that KP is spoiled? Seems to me he works his ass off.

Phil may have been a great coach but he's a punk. The datapoints are manifest. And in any event, he's not the coach, he's the president, and he's failing hard.

Josh Jackson. Word is Phx is interested in trading their pick

Unless Josh Jackson improves by leaps and bounds offensively, his ceiling is limited, too. That would be a horrific trade. Knicks should've called Danny Ainge about this when he had the #1 pick, not #3. This whole situation is gross. I'm about ready to ditch this team for good.

booker 4 and future 1st for kp...

3 bkn first and brown for kp

I tried to be optimistic about Phil for as long as I could, but this is a joke. He's looking to trade an incredible and unique talent out of spite because KP didnt feel like meeting with him after that disaster of a season. How unbelievably petty.

punk, spoiled, whatever. What Phil is doing is mismanagement regardless. Why be public about this. KP doesnt need motivation. He desires to be in a non-shitshow situation where the decrepit team president isnt sitting in a perch heckling the players like Statler and Waldorf. So Phil heckles more. What's the end game? What is the upside for Phil?

Shitty manager.

the Knicks. Someone posted a picture of him smiling and reacting to the trade rumor yesterday. Hell, I'd be smiling too if I can get away from the abomination that Phil has helped to create.

Rose and Melo have fans around the league and players look at how they have been treated here, honestly who would want to come here?

I'm going to rush home from work tomorrow and just to see the Knicks turn down talents like Smith and Monk for a role player like Frenchy....I'm going to be fucking sick.

Turns out Shaq did - Tommy Beer just posted the article.

I wanted Muiday and when they picked KP I was crushed. Give it at least until the summer league. 😄

Seriously I'm done.

In comment 13507026 bceagle05 said:

Quote:

Turns out Shaq did - Tommy Beer just posted the article.

Someone want to check Phil for senility?

In comment 13507018 Jim in Hoboken said:

Quote:

the Knicks. Someone posted a picture of him smiling and reacting to the trade rumor yesterday. Hell, I'd be smiling too if I can get away from the abomination that Phil has helped to create. Rose and Melo have fans around the league and players look at how they have been treated here, honestly who would want to come here? I'm going to rush home from work tomorrow and just to see the Knicks turn down talents like Smith and Monk for a role player like Frenchy....I'm going to be fucking sick.

how can you possibly know what frank will be in the nba?

NBA Central‏ @TheNBACentral
Report: Clippers have spoken to the Pistons about a DeAndre Jordan - Andre Drummond swap.

I feel rock-solid saying that.

In comment 13506935 Sean said:

Quote:

but let's admit he has been a spoiled punk. Him blowing off the exit interview was a joke & disrespecting arguably the greatest coach of all time in the sport is an awful look.

spoiled punk? That's a bunch of bullshit.

In comment 13507026 bceagle05 said:

Quote:

Turns out Shaq did - Tommy Beer just posted the article.

bahahaha. So either he's lying or he's losing his marbles. Either way, he sucks. And it's not like it was fucking Will Perdue or Mark Madsen missing a meeting. It was SHAQ.

be concerned about. This is totally how other franchises operate.

Phil is letting his ego get in the way and KP is coming off as extremely entitled for someone who has ZERO professional accomplishments to speak of. I honestly believe Phil wants to build this team around KP, but these comments from Janis are problematic. The thing I find funny is Odell would get raked over the coals for pulling the same shit as KP. I wonder if Dolan steps in before everyone jumps off the damn bridge holding hands.

I would have no problem trading Porzingis tomorrow. But I would want a helluva lot more than what's being rumored. ONE player and ONE top 4 pick isn't remotely enough.

In comment 13506935 Sean said:

Quote:

but let's admit he has been a spoiled punk. Him blowing off the exit interview was a joke & disrespecting arguably the greatest coach of all time in the sport is an awful look.

What has Phil done in the last 3-4 years that would make you think he even knows what the hell he's doing?

And secondly, what constitutes him being a spoiled punk? Because he doesn't want to put up with this disorganized trash they put out as a basketball team any more than the fans do?

Frenchy is that he's being talked about as a top-10 pick without much of an offensive game to speak of. Aside from Dallas, who else has been linked to Frenchy?

There are maybe 5 players I'd trade KP for one-for-one right now. The least I'd consider for him would be 3 top-5 picks.

In comment 13507083 Jim in Hoboken said:

Quote:

Frenchy is that he's being talked about as a top-10 pick without much of an offensive game to speak of. Aside from Dallas, who else has been linked to Frenchy? There are maybe 5 players I'd trade KP for one-for-one right now. The least I'd consider for him would be 3 top-5 picks.

5 players?

towns, davis, lebron, durant, curry, irving, westbrook, harden, kawhi, wall, giannis

hmm seems more than 5 players

left at their peak.

Anyways, we should be collecting talent rather than focusing on "fit." Phil is about to run a generational talent out of town because he's not buying into the "team philosophy," what does that tell you about Phil and his priorities?

In comment 13506354 Heisenberg said:

Quote:

make it to 8. Assuming they take Frank, that is. Works for me.

One of those four is guaranteed to make it to 8 even if Dallas doesn't take Frank. Or Fultz, Ball, Jackson or Tatum will, but either way, Dallas doesn't need to move up to push anyone down. It does mean that two of them will be there at 8 though.