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NFT: 6/23 Knicks Thread: The Day After

Jon in NYC : 6/23/2017 5:55 am
Very solid draft for the Knicks. I give it a solid B. I know most of you don't love Frank, but I think we'll be very happy with what he provides long term.

Since we've beaten the Frank talk to death, I thought it would be helpful to talk about some other guys and look at the roster construction.

With their first 2nd rounder, they took Damyean Dotson.

6'6, 44% 3PT shooter, solid athlete, seems to have upside as a passer and defender. Major knocks are that he's already 23 and has limited shot creating ability. Seems like he could step into the role Justin Holiday had.

With their second 2nd, they took Ognjen Jaramaz

Seems to be a plus athlete with good size and handle, but a subpar shooter. Probably unlikely he plays in the NBA next year but who knows.

They also signed Nigel Hayes who I think has a real shot at making the team. Smart kid, good passer, rebounder, defender. Can't shoot a lick. Good 15th man, good locker room presence.

And Luke Kornet, who seems to be able to shoot and block shots, but do practically nothing else. Apparently he signed a two way contract, so they can just bring him back and forth between NYK and Westchester? I'm honestly not quite sure how these things work. It's a new rule I believe.

Here's a crack at the current depth chart:

C. Willy/Noah/KOQ/Plumlee
PF. KP/Lance/Ndour
SF. Melo/Kuz/Hayes
SG. Lee/Dotson
PG. Frank/Randle

Woof. That is one trashy NBA roster. But that's okay.

Next step has to be moving Melo imo. Rebuild around a KP/Frank/Willy core, tank, and use the next top pick they get to bring on a high profile scorer.


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RE: Wait  
Jon in NYC : 6/23/2017 3:36 pm : link
In comment 13509867 Jon in NYC said:
Quote:
is that Howard the dude who played on Butler with Gordon Hayward?


hah yes it is.

He was a monster.

Another travel by Frank.
Frank  
DanMetroMan : 6/23/2017 3:37 pm : link
got bodied a bit but was called for palming/traveling, complained a bit but it was the right call.
Through  
Jon in NYC : 6/23/2017 3:46 pm : link
3 quarters it's 46-47.

Keep this in mind when talking about Frank's production.
Trade idea  
GMEN46 : 6/23/2017 3:47 pm : link
Spurs get Melo
Suns get Aldridge
Knicks get miami 1st Rd pick owner by Suns or Bledsoe.

Bledsoe can be trade deadline for a pick in worst case scenario.
Woof,  
Jon in NYC : 6/23/2017 3:52 pm : link
another rough take by Frank. He really needs to work on his handle.
Frank  
DanMetroMan : 6/23/2017 3:54 pm : link
called for the reach
.  
DanMetroMan : 6/23/2017 4:12 pm : link
Frankie with the nice stuff, crowd comes alive #Knicks
Pathetic  
DanMetroMan : 6/23/2017 4:13 pm : link
defensive performance by Strasbourg. Like unbelievably bad.
Jon  
GMEN46 : 6/23/2017 4:17 pm : link
That's my point guys don't really improve their handles when they are 18 or 19. It is what it is at this point. He is not a NBA PG. this will be a big miss by Phil with Monk, Smith and Mitchell all available. All because of the stupid triangle.
RE: Jon  
Jon in NYC : 6/23/2017 4:20 pm : link
In comment 13509959 GMEN46 said:
Quote:
That's my point guys don't really improve their handles when they are 18 or 19. It is what it is at this point. He is not a NBA PG. this will be a big miss by Phil with Monk, Smith and Mitchell all available. All because of the stupid triangle.


That seems like a fairly absurd generalization.

Either way, there's far more to like than dislike after today's performance. He led the team in +/- despite being the youngest player by roughly 7 years and playing after a red eye flight.
My  
DanMetroMan : 6/23/2017 4:37 pm : link
takeaways (this is the 4th time I've seen him)

-Release is somewhat slow but his shot looks to be legit, I don't have any real doubt given his release not being an issue that he'll knock down open 3's

-Showed decent acceleration in the open court

- Seems like he could stand to be even more aggressive on both ends. He made a sweet steal jumping the passing lane.

-Ball handling was sub-par for the NBA PG position

-Made a few nice passes, a few dumb ones

-I predict a lot of foul trouble rookie year, arms and elbows get him in trouble but at least the effort to play D is there

- Level of play in this league is garbage, Fran can make any claim he wants
RE: RE: Jeezus Dan  
81_Great_Dane : 6/23/2017 4:48 pm : link
In comment 13509769 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
Kawhi Leonard being offered for KP is beyond ridiculous I'm sorry
If I were the Knicks and I got that offer, I'd be like, "Fuck, I had no idea he was worth that much, but if he is, I'm keeping him."
RE: RE: RE: Jeezus Dan  
DanMetroMan : 6/23/2017 4:53 pm : link
In comment 13509994 81_Great_Dane said:
Quote:
In comment 13509769 DanMetroMan said:


Quote:


Kawhi Leonard being offered for KP is beyond ridiculous I'm sorry

If I were the Knicks and I got that offer, I'd be like, "Fuck, I had no idea he was worth that much, but if he is, I'm keeping him."


lol. You just know somehow even that would end up against us. Leonard would come here
Didn't  
DanMetroMan : 6/23/2017 4:53 pm : link
see it myself but apparently Shelbourne confirmed that the Clippers offered DeAndre Jordan for #4 and were rebuffed and are denying it now because Jordan is emo.
.  
DanMetroMan : 6/23/2017 4:57 pm : link
NBA Rumors and News‏ @NBA_Rumors_News 27s27 seconds ago
More
espn: lakers offered 2020 unprotected first round pick for teams to take deng. no takers
Dennis Smith Jr will play on the Mavs' Vegas team  
bceagle05 : 6/23/2017 4:58 pm : link
so there will be no Saturday showdown with Frank. Guys are running scared already!
Not absurd  
GMEN46 : 6/23/2017 4:59 pm : link
Shooting is something that can be improved or form can be changed. Defense can be improved with good coaching and positioning and footwork. Balljandling generally does not get better in the NBA. By 18 it is what it is. Did not see much that excites me against mediocre competition. Reminds me of a taller Langston Galloway or a younger derek Harper in derek harpers later years, neither worth the 8th pick. I can't believe you can defend this pick over the other 3 guards available who are all superior athletes, which is what the league is about when it comes to guards
RE: Not absurd  
giantsfan44ab : 6/23/2017 5:08 pm : link
In comment 13510013 GMEN46 said:
Quote:
Shooting is something that can be improved or form can be changed. Defense can be improved with good coaching and positioning and footwork. Balljandling generally does not get better in the NBA. By 18 it is what it is. Did not see much that excites me against mediocre competition. Reminds me of a taller Langston Galloway or a younger derek Harper in derek harpers later years, neither worth the 8th pick. I can't believe you can defend this pick over the other 3 guards available who are all superior athletes, which is what the league is about when it comes to guards


Jeez I'm not a fan of the pick but you're writing him off like that? Not even going to watch him in a week in summer league before that?

It's not like all the other guards were flaw-free. After seeing the knee stuff with DSJ that scared the shit out of me. Monk and DSJ probably have more questions on defense than Frank as well. I liked Mitchell to Frank as well but Michell 1.) Isn't a PG either 2.) Struggles finishing in the paint as well and 3.) Has just a questionable a shot.

I don't think Frank will be a PG but his playmaking will be a plus at the 2 guard spot. If he becomes a George Hill or Batum then thats historically an above average selection for where they pick. It's not superstar, but can be another complimentary piece. The hope is that we get a top 5 pick next year, another star next to KP. Frank and Willy will compliment the 2.
Yeah I wasn't thrilled with the pick either  
bceagle05 : 6/23/2017 5:14 pm : link
but my God, let's give him a chance. Far more things to like about this kid than dislike. He's a gym rat, too.
I want a player  
GMEN46 : 6/23/2017 5:19 pm : link
That can make an impact right away, you guys are willing to wait 3-4 years, so we will have to offer him an $18-20mm extension in a few years when maybe this guy could be good maybe not. monk and smith will be impact players from day 1. You guys saw the guy play today against mediocre competition he is along ways away from making any sort of impact.
RE: I want a player  
nygiants16 : 6/23/2017 5:21 pm : link
In comment 13510034 GMEN46 said:
Quote:
That can make an impact right away, you guys are willing to wait 3-4 years, so we will have to offer him an $18-20mm extension in a few years when maybe this guy could be good maybe not. monk and smith will be impact players from day 1. You guys saw the guy play today against mediocre competition he is along ways away from making any sort of impact.


why do you need a player right away? that makes zero sense, this is not some 1 year rebuild..

plus how do you know monk and smith can make a day 1 impact?

RE: Not absurd  
Ten Ton Hammer : 6/23/2017 5:21 pm : link
In comment 13510013 GMEN46 said:
Quote:
Shooting is something that can be improved or form can be changed. Defense can be improved with good coaching and positioning and footwork. Balljandling generally does not get better in the NBA. By 18 it is what it is. Did not see much that excites me against mediocre competition. Reminds me of a taller Langston Galloway or a younger derek Harper in derek harpers later years, neither worth the 8th pick. I can't believe you can defend this pick over the other 3 guards available who are all superior athletes, which is what the league is about when it comes to guards


Your opinion is your opinion, but let's not suggest that Frank wasn't expected to be a top 10 pick. Some of these arguments against the pick sound like people think the Knicks overdrafted a player expected to go in the 20s.
RE: .  
BigBlueShock : 6/23/2017 5:24 pm : link
In comment 13510010 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
NBA Rumors and News‏ @NBA_Rumors_News 27s27 seconds ago
More
espn: lakers offered 2020 unprotected first round pick for teams to take deng. no takers

2020? Gee thanks! By then the Lakers will have PG and LeBron and that pick will be useless.
..  
nygiants16 : 6/23/2017 5:25 pm : link
what impact dis kawhi leonard make his first year? jimmy butler?

you have no idea what a guy can become...
RE: I want a player  
Ten Ton Hammer : 6/23/2017 5:27 pm : link
In comment 13510034 GMEN46 said:
Quote:
That can make an impact right away


And that isn't good drafting anyway. If this is the philosophy you wanted to run your team by, then you draft Frank Kaminsky, not Porzingis, because one is safer and the more immediate help. But it wouldn't be the right decision.
RE: I want a player  
giantsfan44ab : 6/23/2017 5:27 pm : link
In comment 13510034 GMEN46 said:
Quote:
That can make an impact right away, you guys are willing to wait 3-4 years, so we will have to offer him an $18-20mm extension in a few years when maybe this guy could be good maybe not. monk and smith will be impact players from day 1. You guys saw the guy play today against mediocre competition he is along ways away from making any sort of impact.


Yeah...this logic is dumb as shit. Jahlil Okafor and Mudiay were supposed to be "instant impacts". This isn't stuff you can really judge right away. KP wasn't "NBA Ready". There's no track record for these labels in accurately depicting actual NBA performance.
RE: I want a player  
BigBlueShock : 6/23/2017 5:30 pm : link
In comment 13510034 GMEN46 said:
Quote:
That can make an impact right away, you guys are willing to wait 3-4 years, so we will have to offer him an $18-20mm extension in a few years when maybe this guy could be good maybe not. monk and smith will be impact players from day 1. You guys saw the guy play today against mediocre competition he is along ways away from making any sort of impact.

Just stop. You know less than NOTHING about how any of these guys will turn out. I hope you get this whining off your chest now and don't litter every Knicks thread for the next 6 months with this crap. Can we watch it play out before anointing him a bust and making reservations for the hall of fame for the other 3 super studs?
If the Knicks take Monk at 8  
larryflower37 : 6/23/2017 5:37 pm : link
How far does Frank drop?
I don't believe he drops further than 15.

My point is I don't think he is a reach and most believe he belongs in the top 10. He has lottery talent and what I have heard a strong work ethic.

Let's see how he turns out over the next 3 years.
RE: If the Knicks take Monk at 8  
Jon in NYC : 6/23/2017 5:40 pm : link
In comment 13510060 larryflower37 said:
Quote:
How far does Frank drop?
I don't believe he drops further than 15.

My point is I don't think he is a reach and most believe he belongs in the top 10. He has lottery talent and what I have heard a strong work ethic.

Let's see how he turns out over the next 3 years.


15? The Mavs would have taken him at 9.
My point is that  
GMEN46 : 6/23/2017 5:52 pm : link
He will never be an elite player we are looking at a 3 and D guy upside. It worthy of the 8th pick too many better options. You have to go for the superstar upside and monk and smith both have that or if your focused on defense then you draft the more athletic player like Mitchell.
RE: My point is that  
nygiants16 : 6/23/2017 6:01 pm : link
In comment 13510074 GMEN46 said:
Quote:
He will never be an elite player we are looking at a 3 and D guy upside. It worthy of the 8th pick too many better options. You have to go for the superstar upside and monk and smith both have that or if your focused on defense then you draft the more athletic player like Mitchell.


again how do you know he will never be elite?

you have no idea what he will become...

you are talking in absolutes like you can see the future...

did you know kawhi leonard would be a star? paul george? jimmy butler? tony parker? manu ginobli? stephen curry? klay thompson? draymond green?

you are writing off an 18 year old kid that you have not watched plag a single minute
I'm willing to wait  
Giantfootball025 : 6/23/2017 6:07 pm : link
but, I watched the championship game he played today and while he did some really nice things, I do not see elite level athleticism or very good ball control skills. I don't think DSJ or Monk will be better players, but they seem to have more of an "it" factor when they play. The game I watched today was some really bad basketball as a whole.
All those players you  
GMEN46 : 6/23/2017 6:46 pm : link
Listed are really talented at something or super athletic. Even ginolbli who is avg athleticism is so crafty and smart. Frank is just pretty average at everything although he does shoot 3's well with a solo release against mediocre competition. Super athletic guys have big upside potential over time non athletic PGs just can't be elite in this league. At the end of the day I want him to be great just like everyone, but I know the max upaise is george hill type and that does nothing to excite me. You can't pass on Monk or smith jr knowing the potential upside is so much higher
here is the concept you cant seem to grasp  
nygiants16 : 6/23/2017 7:00 pm : link
you are talking in absolutes like the kid can never improve anything, fact you have zero idea of what he was going to necome..

and no one on the list i gave you was prkjected to be a superstar player, none..
Why did ESPN had him as best chance to be an all-star  
George from PA : 6/23/2017 7:44 pm : link
In entire draft?


Granted also greatest chance to bust
RE: All those players you  
BigBlueShock : 6/23/2017 7:48 pm : link
In comment 13510110 GMEN46 said:
Quote:
Listed are really talented at something or super athletic. Even ginolbli who is avg athleticism is so crafty and smart. Frank is just pretty average at everything although he does shoot 3's well with a solo release against mediocre competition. Super athletic guys have big upside potential over time non athletic PGs just can't be elite in this league. At the end of the day I want him to be great just like everyone, but I know the max upaise is george hill type and that does nothing to excite me. You can't pass on Monk or smith jr knowing the potential upside is so much higher

So, tell me all about Manu Ginobli when he was 18 years old. How crafty and smart he was. You seem to have a firm grasp on everything so this should be good
The other two guys are 19, one year older, not some fifth year  
Jim in Hoboken : 6/23/2017 10:00 pm : link
redshirt senior like our second pick. They played one year of college ball, before that AAU where they got less than zero coaching. Frank turned pro when he was 15, presumably with better fundamentals.

Yet with Frank it's he'll be good, because we don't know.....

But we know the other two have stopped developing at 19 and won't learn the team game because they are too athletic....they score too easily so they must hate passing.

Nobody knows. A lot is between the ears which we don't see. KP was special, I could see right away after getting over the initial disappointment of not getting Mudiay. Frank? Of course the jury is still out but gun to your head you think he will have bigger impact in the league compared to Smith and Monk?

Not me.

RE: All those players you  
Ten Ton Hammer : 6/23/2017 10:08 pm : link
In comment 13510110 GMEN46 said:
Quote:
Listed are really talented at something or super athletic. Even ginolbli who is avg athleticism is so crafty and smart. Frank is just pretty average at everything although he does shoot 3's well with a solo release against mediocre competition. Super athletic guys have big upside potential over time non athletic PGs just can't be elite in this league. At the end of the day I want him to be great just like everyone, but I know the max upaise is george hill type and that does nothing to excite me. You can't pass on Monk or smith jr knowing the potential upside is so much higher


How do you 'know' all this?
FWIW  
Jim in Fairfax : 6/23/2017 10:44 pm : link
Paul Sabin of ESPN Analytics rated all the top prospects, putting a number to the odds the player becomes an all-star, starter, bench player, or complete bust. Of the top 10 players drafted, Frank Ntilikina is the most likely to be a complete bust. He's also the most likely to be an all-star.
Analytics separates Busts from All-Stars - ( New Window )
The comment that handle  
RAIN : 6/24/2017 1:37 am : link
doesn't get better I find hard to believe. That will be his challenge. If he is able to tighten that up, he will be able to actualize the athleticism he has, and be better off the bounce. He's not even 19.

The weight room will also do him a world of good.

What he is.. a potentially dominant defender that can guard 3 positions, while spotting up off the ball from distance. I see him getting minutes at the 2, while learning the 1.

Can't wait to see him play this summer  
Canton : 6/24/2017 2:00 am : link
Neeeeelikinaaaaaa  
Canton : 6/24/2017 2:01 am : link
.
I am actually  
TommyWiseau : 6/24/2017 8:02 am : link
Very excited about the pick, Phil said in an interview that he hopes to get him 28 minutes per game his rookie season. I hope so
I don't know anything about the French kid.  
Klaatu : 6/24/2017 8:08 am : link
And I don't know much more about the players the Knicks passed on to draft him.

But since Stephen A. Smith and Max Kellerman were both killing the Knicks after the draft, my guess is that - wonder of wonders - Phil Jackson made the right move.
RE: I don't know anything about the French kid.  
nygiants16 : 6/24/2017 8:30 am : link
In comment 13510464 Klaatu said:
Quote:
And I don't know much more about the players the Knicks passed on to draft him.

But since Stephen A. Smith and Max Kellerman were both killing the Knicks after the draft, my guess is that - wonder of wonders - Phil Jackson made the right move.


the reason people hate the pick is because they never saw him play, people wanted monk and smith because they were known names..

it is that simple, if frank played at kentucky or duke people would have no problem with the pick, it is the fear of the unknown and i get it but that is not a reason to hate a lick and say he is going to be nothing...

this is like when the giants lick someone no one has ever heard of in the 5th and everyone kills jerrh reese...
nygiants16  
Klaatu : 6/24/2017 9:06 am : link
I'm just glad they didn't trade Porzingis.
RE: nygiants16  
nygiants16 : 6/24/2017 9:37 am : link
In comment 13510491 Klaatu said:
Quote:
I'm just glad they didn't trade Porzingis.


they were never going to unless someone came with a crazy offer, yet the media claims he was shopping him...

ainge said he literally tlaked to phil for 2 mins about kp and said they didnt want to move him, they just wanted to see if they could get a ceazy offer
If Rose is going to play for them this  
RetroJint : 6/24/2017 10:09 am : link
coming season, they should have taken Monk. If you presume no Anthony, where are the points coming from? They might be better off on a 2 or 3 year projection, but 17-18 looks like a 20-win affair. Then, again, Jax is still weighing trading Zinger, so who knows what will happen?
RE: If Rose is going to play for them this  
Jim in Fairfax : 6/24/2017 10:14 am : link
In comment 13510535 RetroJint said:
Quote:
coming season, they should have taken Monk. If you presume no Anthony, where are the points coming from? They might be better off on a 2 or 3 year projection, but 17-18 looks like a 20-win affair. Then, again, Jax is still weighing trading Zinger, so who knows what will happen?

You think they should choose among 19 year old players based on who might fit best with a band-aid? OK then.
RE: FWIW  
Ten Ton Hammer : 6/24/2017 10:50 am : link
In comment 13510335 Jim in Fairfax said:
Quote:
Paul Sabin of ESPN Analytics rated all the top prospects, putting a number to the odds the player becomes an all-star, starter, bench player, or complete bust. Of the top 10 players drafted, Frank Ntilikina is the most likely to be a complete bust. He's also the most likely to be an all-star. Analytics separates Busts from All-Stars - ( New Window )


The only thing you can take away from this is that they actually don't know anything. It's a fancy way of saying they have no idea.
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