Very solid draft for the Knicks. I give it a solid B. I know most of you don't love Frank, but I think we'll be very happy with what he provides long term.
Since we've beaten the Frank talk to death, I thought it would be helpful to talk about some other guys and look at the roster construction.
With their first 2nd rounder, they took Damyean Dotson.
6'6, 44% 3PT shooter, solid athlete, seems to have upside as a passer and defender. Major knocks are that he's already 23 and has limited shot creating ability. Seems like he could step into the role Justin Holiday had.
With their second 2nd, they took Ognjen Jaramaz
Seems to be a plus athlete with good size and handle, but a subpar shooter. Probably unlikely he plays in the NBA next year but who knows.
They also signed Nigel Hayes who I think has a real shot at making the team. Smart kid, good passer, rebounder, defender. Can't shoot a lick. Good 15th man, good locker room presence.
And Luke Kornet, who seems to be able to shoot and block shots, but do practically nothing else. Apparently he signed a two way contract, so they can just bring him back and forth between NYK and Westchester? I'm honestly not quite sure how these things work. It's a new rule I believe.
Here's a crack at the current depth chart:
C. Willy/Noah/KOQ/Plumlee
PF. KP/Lance/Ndour
SF. Melo/Kuz/Hayes
SG. Lee/Dotson
PG. Frank/Randle
Woof. That is one trashy NBA roster. But that's okay.
Next step has to be moving Melo imo. Rebuild around a KP/Frank/Willy core, tank, and use the next top pick they get to bring on a high profile scorer.
If Rose is gone then I think we will see a jump in the scoring of Porzingis. Now that he is in year 3, and will clearly be the first or second option, I would be disappointed if he didn't jump up to around 22 points and 9 boards per game. I know it isn't they arent the best comps, but Dirk went from 17.5 and 6.5 boards in year 2 up to 22 and 9 in year 3. I would hope we see something similar from Kristaps. Even a guy like Greek Freak last year saw a jump in his age 21 to age 22 season where he went from a 17 and 8 up to 23 and 9.
As for the rest of Rose's scoring, if Ntilikina is going to get close to 30 minutes then I would hope he is putting up at least 13 or 14 points per game.
i hope willy is the 2nd scorer but if lee is still here i expect him to be the 2nd guy
- Another report said Phil insisted Noah be taken back in any offer
- Another report said Phil insisted Noah be taken back in any offer
The more that comes out from this I think it's just another case of Phil trying to use the media to send a message to one of his players. He must think that this sends a message to Porzingis that nobody is "above the team," trying to put him in his place.
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Paul Sabin of ESPN Analytics rated all the top prospects, putting a number to the odds the player becomes an all-star, starter, bench player, or complete bust. Of the top 10 players drafted, Frank Ntilikina is the most likely to be a complete bust. He's also the most likely to be an all-star. Analytics separates Busts from All-Stars - ( New Window )
The only thing you can take away from this is that they actually don't know anything. It's a fancy way of saying they have no idea.
So if you can't predict something with 100% certainty, you shouldn't bother trying? I guess teams should just fire their scouts and analysts and toss all the names in a drum and pick at random.
There is a system behind this. Obviously there's a high degree of variability, and things you can't control for (future injuries, personal drive, getting hooked on drugs). But that doesn't mean you can't quantify some of it and use that to guide you.
Guide to Projection Model - ( New Window )
phil said in his press conference he wamts to bjild a young team to build together..
i would be shocjed if rose come back..
i do think they offer porter a contract to try and steal him from washington
i am good with sergio, would he come abck to new yoek though?
I was at a wedding this past weekend and I asked my cousin, a lifelong Knicks fan who knows the NBA and European basketball inside and out. He's younger than I am by about two decades so he's got a lot less disappointment stored up in him from this franchise. I asked him, "forget about GSW, give me a realistic scenario where the Knicks can even compete with Cleveland". So he tells me, "if they can get Monk in this draft and keep KP you bring in a few guys they have a solid shot in two seasons, maybe three".
Welp... Monk ain't coming here. Instead the Knicks are AGAIN rebuilding the franchise. And they're building in the image of the highly successful teams in todays Association. Right? Just like GSW, a team that runs the unstoppable scoring philosophy and way of life, the Triangle Offense, paired with a team comprised entirely of foreign born lanky superstars of the EU developmental league. Right? I mean... WTF? Does anyone in the Knicks organization even watch other teams in the NBA? I guess not as the Knicks seem to believe the way to build a franchise is with talent from Europe that can run the infallible and revolutionary Triangle Offense. Why even bother with athletic ball handling Americans that can shoot? All the best ballers are in Europe. And just for good measure, let's sign some broken down aging has beens and every now and again threaten to trade our best prospect.
Has it even occurred to Dolan that the triangle offense worked great with two teams, both of which were stocked with generational players among the very best to ever play the game? Those MJ Bulls teams could have been running a the Circle Offense or the Trapezoid Offense and they would have been Champions. Note to egomaniac Phil Jackson: "it wasn't your system that was great"!
Metta World Peace, meet Malik Monk. I have a feeling you'll both occupy a similar space in the black hearts of Knicks fans for a long time.
If you play very good d, which he does and you have a very good 3 pt shot, which he does, you're not going to be a complete bust.
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Coming back would make me sick. Sergio! Sergio! Checks off all of the boxes. Played with Willy, knows KP, good teammate, pure pg, won't be expensive, can be benched for Frank. Sergio Sergio!
i am good with sergio, would he come abck to new yoek though?
I haven't seen any indication otherwise. He's also close with Willy (in addition to being former teammates). Ideally 1 year with a second year team option but 1 year at an inflated AAV works for me. 10.6 assists per 48, 37% from 3. I see literally zero downside to bringing in a consummate pro like Sergio. I won't pretend I know if he's going to really want to "mentor" someone (that's something fans place on vets without knowing their personality) but I do believe the "pure PG" skills he has would be good for a developing PG (Franky) to see up close.
At the end of the day I'm a Knicks fan so I have to accept whatever they do. I will root for Frank and I see a solid base of skills. I do believe his rookie year is going to be somewhat "disappointing" given the MASSIVE upgrade in talent he will be facing. Fran can make any claim he wants, the talent in the French A league is awful and anyone who watched the game yesterday will confirm this.
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In comment 13510335 Jim in Fairfax said:
Quote:
Paul Sabin of ESPN Analytics rated all the top prospects, putting a number to the odds the player becomes an all-star, starter, bench player, or complete bust. Of the top 10 players drafted, Frank Ntilikina is the most likely to be a complete bust. He's also the most likely to be an all-star. Analytics separates Busts from All-Stars - ( New Window )
The only thing you can take away from this is that they actually don't know anything. It's a fancy way of saying they have no idea.
So if you can't predict something with 100% certainty, you shouldn't bother trying? I guess teams should just fire their scouts and analysts and toss all the names in a drum and pick at random.
There is a system behind this. Obviously there's a high degree of variability, and things you can't control for (future injuries, personal drive, getting hooked on drugs). But that doesn't mean you can't quantify some of it and use that to guide you.
Guide to Projection Model - ( New Window )
No, I get trying. What I'm saying is that when you get a result like that, as opposed to the more definitive results for the more easily scoutable players, it tells me that you just don't have the same level of information on that guy.
I was at a wedding this past weekend and I asked my cousin, a lifelong Knicks fan who knows the NBA and European basketball inside and out. He's younger than I am by about two decades so he's got a lot less disappointment stored up in him from this franchise. I asked him, "forget about GSW, give me a realistic scenario where the Knicks can even compete with Cleveland". So he tells me, "if they can get Monk in this draft and keep KP you bring in a few guys they have a solid shot in two seasons, maybe three".
Welp... Monk ain't coming here. Instead the Knicks are AGAIN rebuilding the franchise. And they're building in the image of the highly successful teams in todays Association. Right? Just like GSW, a team that runs the unstoppable scoring philosophy and way of life, the Triangle Offense, paired with a team comprised entirely of foreign born lanky superstars of the EU developmental league. Right? I mean... WTF? Does anyone in the Knicks organization even watch other teams in the NBA? I guess not as the Knicks seem to believe the way to build a franchise is with talent from Europe that can run the infallible and revolutionary Triangle Offense. Why even bother with athletic ball handling Americans that can shoot? All the best ballers are in Europe. And just for good measure, let's sign some broken down aging has beens and every now and again threaten to trade our best prospect.
Has it even occurred to Dolan that the triangle offense worked great with two teams, both of which were stocked with generational players among the very best to ever play the game? Those MJ Bulls teams could have been running a the Circle Offense or the Trapezoid Offense and they would have been Champions. Note to egomaniac Phil Jackson: "it wasn't your system that was great"!
Metta World Peace, meet Malik Monk. I have a feeling you'll both occupy a similar space in the black hearts of Knicks fans for a long time.
You're upset. Let's just calm down. For one thing, the NBA is littered with failed athletic american born players too. Not sure where the idea came to your mind that drafting US-born players is somehow any percentage more of a sure thing. Especially how successful european players have been in the NBA, and for this team in the past 10 years specifically.
Elbow Lee...
Arm Lee.... R. Lee Ermey?
And I've heard it pronounced two ways. Knee-Luh-Kee-Nuh and Tee-Luh-Kee-Nuh
"Ni-lee-kina"
Is this the official team? Surprised Willy would play. I also never want to see NDour after he cost the Knicks draft position.
You're upset. Let's just calm down. For one thing, the NBA is littered with failed athletic american born players too. Not sure where the idea came to your mind that drafting US-born players is somehow any percentage more of a sure thing. Especially how successful european players have been in the NBA, and for this team in the past 10 years specifically.
TTH, of course I'm upset. The Knicks are currently among the least respected professional sports franchises across all sports. I mean, if I'm the Jets GM I'm laughing at the Knicks. If I'm the owner of the Browns, I can mock James Dolan. The Knicks are clown show. They are a bottom of the barrel basketball team with absolutely no chance to compete for a title in the next 5 years. Zero. There's no imaginable scenario where the Knicks win a Championship in the next 5 years. This draft didn't bring us any closer to respectability. A French kid that can run the triangle? You've got to be kidding me.
The French kid might be a solid player in a few years. Obviously I can't say he's a bust. But this is a lottery pick - you go for greatness - not a solid player who can hide in Europe for a few years and then have as a role player.
As far as picking a European, color me a basketball bigot. I think the best ballers are right here in the USA. Malik Monk and Smith play meaningful minutes in the NBA next season. Our guy from France? I don't know... And the numbers would clearly indicate that the best of the best - the best players in the NBA - are almost always reared right here in the good old USA. You gonna tell me the US is producing top soccer athletes? Where do you find the best football players?
Talk me off the ledge. I beg you, tell me how the Knicks are respectable in the next two to three seasons? Honestly, it just makes me more and more upset. I think Jackson is ruining this franchise with his ridiculous ego. If the Knicks are competitive over the next five years, you can be the first to tell me "I told you so".
Smith or Monk. Just at the guard position. Maybe not future HOF players but they'll play meaningful minutes next year.
How's this work in the brilliant Knicks draft war planning sessions? "Hey Jimbo, looks like we're 8 in the lottery this year. Who do like in the French developmental league"? Holly smokes! Anyone defending Phil Jackson has to be either delusional or employed by MSG (wait, is that redundant?).
Hope I'm wrong and Frank is 5 time NBA Champion (with the Knicks please). Doubt it though. You know, just based on 50 years of futility.
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What greatness was available at 8?
Smith or Monk. Just at the guard position. Maybe not future HOF players but they'll play meaningful minutes next year.
How's this work in the brilliant Knicks draft war planning sessions? "Hey Jimbo, looks like we're 8 in the lottery this year. Who do like in the French developmental league"? Holly smokes! Anyone defending Phil Jackson has to be either delusional or employed by MSG (wait, is that redundant?).
Hope I'm wrong and Frank is 5 time NBA Champion (with the Knicks please). Doubt it though. You know, just based on 50 years of futility.
Even as a fan of Monk the stupidity on here is pretty insane. I'm glad you're more qualified to scout than successful Knicks scouts. Surprise you reserve your talents for football message boards if you know so much about the industry.
Frank was a mocked top 10 pick since last year so don't get your panties in your bunch. Don't be a dumbass.
In terms of starters:
Avery Bradley
Garry Harris is 6'4
That's all I could find.
I think the Knicks would have taken Monk and played him at PG, but that has way more question marks than Frank does IMO.
Is that question about the height of shooting for me? Not sure why it would be. Like everyone else, I had monk and smith at the 1 not the 2.
Since we're making lists, how about a list of all the great NBA players from France? I'd suggest we list all the great players from Europe but, whoa, that list would be really long.
Is that question about the height of shooting for me? Not sure why it would be. Like everyone else, I had monk and smith at the 1 not the 2.
Since we're making lists, how about a list of all the great NBA players from France? I'd suggest we list all the great players from Europe but, whoa, that list would be really long.
Succesful French players: Batum, Fournier, Parker, Diaw, Gobert
Successful 6'3 guards with no playmaking or defensive ability: ????
Is that question about the height of shooting for me? Not sure why it would be. Like everyone else, I had monk and smith at the 1 not the 2.
Since we're making lists, how about a list of all the great NBA players from France? I'd suggest we list all the great players from Europe but, whoa, that list would be really long.
I don't have a dog in this fight, but hasn't the current scouting staff brought us KP and Willy from Europe? You can criticize the Knicks and this FO for a LOT, but their Euro scouting definitely isn't part of that.
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Never mind. Alls well in Knicksland. The "successful Knicks scouts" got this. Gonna lean back now and watch the Championships roll into MSG.
Is that question about the height of shooting for me? Not sure why it would be. Like everyone else, I had monk and smith at the 1 not the 2.
Since we're making lists, how about a list of all the great NBA players from France? I'd suggest we list all the great players from Europe but, whoa, that list would be really long.
Succesful French players: Batum, Fournier, Parker, Diaw, Gobert
Successful 6'3 guards with no playmaking or defensive ability: ????
So Monk and Smith are gonna both bust out of the NBA because they can't make plays or play defense as 6'3" 1s? But the kid who averaged 5 points in France? He's gonna be a star? Ok, hope you're right. Also, the guys you listed weren't top ten picks. Frank at 25? Sign me up!
And once again, I don't think Frank is going to bust out, yes, I read the scouting reports on him and I think he'll play in the NBA someday. I think he'll be a nice player. But he isn't likely to play next year. And part of why many people think he was picked is due to fitting in the triangle offense. I do think the triangle offense is ridiculous. I do think Phil Jackson is ruining the Knicks with his absurd faith in a bygone system that was propelled by four or five of the greatest NBA players of all time.
Look I hope I'm wrong and Frank is a star and brings us many many NBA Championships (the first in my lifetime). But I can't believe I'm being made out to be a fool for suggesting the Knicks don't know what the fuck they're doing. Seriously, we're talking about the same Knicks here right?
I don't have a dog in this fight, but hasn't the current scouting staff brought us KP and Willy from Europe? You can criticize the Knicks and this FO for a LOT, but their Euro scouting definitely isn't part of that.
A fair point. I assume the Knicks European "successful scouts" signed off on the trade with Philly for Willy. But he was drafted at 35 and had more experience and his size made him less of a gamble.
I'd say the jury is still out on KP as the 4th pick over all. I have already said I was wrong about him on draft day. But yes, he's a legit franchise player from Europe. And I suppose the Knicks "successful scouts" get credit for that pick.
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I don't have a dog in this fight, but hasn't the current scouting staff brought us KP and Willy from Europe? You can criticize the Knicks and this FO for a LOT, but their Euro scouting definitely isn't part of that.
A fair point. I assume the Knicks European "successful scouts" signed off on the trade with Philly for Willy. But he was drafted at 35 and had more experience and his size made him less of a gamble.
I'd say the jury is still out on KP as the 4th pick over all. I have already said I was wrong about him on draft day. But yes, he's a legit franchise player from Europe. And I suppose the Knicks "successful scouts" get credit for that pick.
No, that jury is not still out.
Not sure if posted
Draft Express - ( New Window )
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Never mind. Alls well in Knicksland. The "successful Knicks scouts" got this. Gonna lean back now and watch the Championships roll into MSG.
Is that question about the height of shooting for me? Not sure why it would be. Like everyone else, I had monk and smith at the 1 not the 2.
Since we're making lists, how about a list of all the great NBA players from France? I'd suggest we list all the great players from Europe but, whoa, that list would be really long.
I don't have a dog in this fight, but hasn't the current scouting staff brought us KP and Willy from Europe? You can criticize the Knicks and this FO for a LOT, but their Euro scouting definitely isn't part of that.
It goes further back than that. Gallinari and Prigioni were two other finds you can credit to scouting.
No, that jury is not still out.
You're right. My frustration is with all the trade talk not KPs production.
I'm hoping for Rondo with a amazing good persons Brain and a much better shot
I'm hoping for Rondo with a amazing good persons Brain and a much better shot
if he becomes rondo with a jump shot i think everyone will be very happy
If the focus on team building is now different (building as opposed to win now mentality) Jackson may be better at putting building blocks together than quick fixes.
They've been pathetic for some time. And he needs to have better communication with Melo and KP. Let's see how this plays out.
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In comment 13510816 trueblueinpw said:
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Never mind. Alls well in Knicksland. The "successful Knicks scouts" got this. Gonna lean back now and watch the Championships roll into MSG.
Is that question about the height of shooting for me? Not sure why it would be. Like everyone else, I had monk and smith at the 1 not the 2.
Since we're making lists, how about a list of all the great NBA players from France? I'd suggest we list all the great players from Europe but, whoa, that list would be really long.
Succesful French players: Batum, Fournier, Parker, Diaw, Gobert
Successful 6'3 guards with no playmaking or defensive ability: ????
So Monk and Smith are gonna both bust out of the NBA because they can't make plays or play defense as 6'3" 1s? But the kid who averaged 5 points in France? He's gonna be a star? Ok, hope you're right. Also, the guys you listed weren't top ten picks. Frank at 25? Sign me up!
That is my issue with Monk, not Smith. Smith has a higher likelihood of being a good starter, but there are still many questions with his health, but more importantly, his mentality and aptitude, as Phil would put it.
And if you think the "jury is out" on KP, then this is not a discussion worth having.
Not sure if posted
It was not, thank you for the link.
Good shooter, athlete. Nice player, but turning 25, which is his big knock.
Already explained my comment on KP, my frustration with that pick isn't KPs play it's the ass monkey who's shopping him around. But you're right, it's not a conversation worth having. You, and apparently a lot of other good BBI posters have a lot more faith in the Knicks than I do. Nothing would make me happier than being totally and completely wrong about the course of the Knicks.
Link - ( New Window )