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Inside Football "For Fun" Roster Projection

SGMen : 7/5/2017 9:38 am
Pat Traina did an interesting write-up on her "way too early" roster projection. Injuries will happen; surprises will happen; etc., but the fun part here for me is getting a general idea of how many we may carry by position and well as why?

It Was my surprise that Pat kept only four safeties as I had us carrying 5? Also, I forgot that Herzlich is the backup long snapper and now TE so he likely makes the roster over rookie UDFA Munson (PS).

And there was some positive publication regarding TE M. LaCosse who worked hard this off-season on a new regiment which will hopefully help him with injuries.

What are your surprises, if any?
Fun Roster Projection - ( New Window )
I pretty much agree with everything at this point  
beatrixkiddo : 7/5/2017 11:15 am : link
baring any future injuries that come along which will change things.

I don't know if I see Powe making the team as a 6th WR. He doesn't contribute on specials which is essential for those last slotted roles, I don't see why they wouldn't just keep him on the PS unless he blows up in pre-season.

I think with our roster, the better ST player out of the DB's and WR's will determine where they carry that extra player. I do see them carrying 4 TE's with Tye the odd man out if everyone else stays healthy, Only way Tye makes it is if Ellison's injury keeps him out.

Right now I think Wheeler and possibly Dunker are more likely to stick than Gettis. They both have more upside, than the 28 year old backup OG.
RE: I pretty much agree with everything at this point  
SGMen : 7/5/2017 11:22 am : link
In comment 13519722 beatrixkiddo said:
Quote:
baring any future injuries that come along which will change things.

I don't know if I see Powe making the team as a 6th WR. He doesn't contribute on specials which is essential for those last slotted roles, I don't see why they wouldn't just keep him on the PS unless he blows up in pre-season.

I think with our roster, the better ST player out of the DB's and WR's will determine where they carry that extra player. I do see them carrying 4 TE's with Tye the odd man out if everyone else stays healthy, Only way Tye makes it is if Ellison's injury keeps him out.

Right now I think Wheeler and possibly Dunker are more likely to stick than Gettis. They both have more upside, than the 28 year old backup OG.
The sidenote regarding Ellison's calf has me worried. Hopefully it isn't something that lingers or gets worse. We got him for his blocking and he is the one proven guy we have at doing that inline consistently.

I didn't realize Powe wasn't a special teams contributor. That certainly can change things.

As for Gettis, his versatility and experience in the system give him the edge to stick. The UDFA OL can go to the PS with limited chance of being plucked, I'd think?
RE: I pretty much agree with everything at this point  
njm : 7/5/2017 11:25 am : link
In comment 13519722 beatrixkiddo said:
Quote:
Only way Tye makes it is if Ellison's injury keeps him out.


Or Lacosse blocks like he did pre-injury in the last 2 training camps.
There is really nothing "fun"ny about having  
Jimmy Googs : 7/5/2017 11:47 am : link
Herzlich, Adams and Berhe make this roster...
Wheeler  
AcidTest : 7/5/2017 11:55 am : link
over Gettis if they go with nine OL, which is hardly a given. I also think Pinkins will edge out one of the LBs as a sort of hybrid player.
RE: There is really nothing  
SGMen : 7/5/2017 12:00 pm : link
In comment 13519780 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
Herzlich, Adams and Berhe make this roster...
Ha. But seriously, each serves a function if healthy.

Herzlich can play LB, poorly but he has versatility there and you'd just have to live with him. More importantly, he is the backup long-snapper and now apparently an inline blocking TE as well. How good he blocks remains to be seen.
Adams I presume you mean the FS who started last year. Write ups say he worked hard to improve so again lets see how he does in camp. We were a good defense with him last year and he was a rookie.
Behre is injury prone but in my mind the only true SS behind Collins in the roster so we have to hope he holds up and has learned to tackle cleanly.
RE: Wheeler  
SGMen : 7/5/2017 12:09 pm : link
In comment 13519788 AcidTest said:
Quote:
over Gettis if they go with nine OL, which is hardly a given. I also think Pinkins will edge out one of the LBs as a sort of hybrid player.
Gettis is a versatile interior OL. Wheeler as I understand it is an OT. We need the 9th guy on the inside based on the numbers game.

I too believe Petitgout is the backup OLT should Flowers go down. We can always move a guy up from the PS.
If Herzlich  
ChicagoMarty : 7/5/2017 12:17 pm : link
can't play lb better than Munson, Skinner and/or Pinkins then I don't see how he makes the roster.

We already have a logjam at TE

Backup snappers can be developed

If Munson, Skinner and/or Pinkins outplay Herzlich at both lb and ST during preseason than say goodbye to Mark.

We need to get faster at both lb and ST.

We need lbs who can pass cover.

I just don't see how being versatile but not particularly skilled, physical or fast gets Herzlich on the team.

Don't see how Behre gets a roster spot either. Fourth and fifth string Safeties need to be versatile. Pinkins plays S, LB and CB besides being an excellent ST player. Mykele Thompson plays cb as well as fs and specials. Both Pinkins and Thompson have shown more in pass coverage then Behre imo who is a hitter for sure but thats about it.
RE: If Herzlich  
SGMen : 7/5/2017 12:25 pm : link
In comment 13519812 ChicagoMarty said:
Quote:
can't play lb better than Munson, Skinner and/or Pinkins then I don't see how he makes the roster.

We already have a logjam at TE

Backup snappers can be developed

If Munson, Skinner and/or Pinkins outplay Herzlich at both lb and ST during preseason than say goodbye to Mark.

We need to get faster at both lb and ST.

We need lbs who can pass cover.

I just don't see how being versatile but not particularly skilled, physical or fast gets Herzlich on the team.

Don't see how Behre gets a roster spot either. Fourth and fifth string Safeties need to be versatile. Pinkins plays S, LB and CB besides being an excellent ST player. Mykele Thompson plays cb as well as fs and specials. Both Pinkins and Thompson have shown more in pass coverage then Behre imo who is a hitter for sure but thats about it.
I would love it if both Pinkins and Munson have great camps and make injury prone Behre and slow Herzlich expendable. I just haven't seen it yet to believe. Coverage linebackers who can chase and tackle well are not easy to find at this point.
Powe  
Jay in Toronto : 7/5/2017 3:08 pm : link
had a great spring.

Let's see if it carries over to exhibition season.
RE: Powe  
SGMen : 7/5/2017 3:11 pm : link
In comment 13520127 Jay in Toronto said:
Quote:
had a great spring.

Let's see if it carries over to exhibition season.
The thing with D. Powe is that as a 6th WR who doesn't play specials teams as I understand it he won't be active on game-days? Can we get away with that? Maybe....depends on how much upside he has as a wideout.
RE: RE: Powe  
Klaatu : 7/5/2017 6:51 pm : link
In comment 13520135 SGMen said:
Quote:
In comment 13520127 Jay in Toronto said:


Quote:


had a great spring.

Let's see if it carries over to exhibition season.

The thing with D. Powe is that as a 6th WR who doesn't play specials teams as I understand it he won't be active on game-days? Can we get away with that? Maybe....depends on how much upside he has as a wideout.


Powe was an excellent special-teamer in college, with, I believe, a blocked punt to his credit. He was only taken off ST duty when he began to play a much larger role in the Cal offense. He's got good size and speed, and I believe the Giants can get from him what they'd hoped to get from Geremy Davis, but never did.
RE: RE: RE: Powe  
SGMen : 7/5/2017 6:57 pm : link
In comment 13520490 Klaatu said:
Quote:
In comment 13520135 SGMen said:


Quote:


In comment 13520127 Jay in Toronto said:


Quote:


had a great spring.

Let's see if it carries over to exhibition season.

The thing with D. Powe is that as a 6th WR who doesn't play specials teams as I understand it he won't be active on game-days? Can we get away with that? Maybe....depends on how much upside he has as a wideout.



Powe was an excellent special-teamer in college, with, I believe, a blocked punt to his credit. He was only taken off ST duty when he began to play a much larger role in the Cal offense. He's got good size and speed, and I believe the Giants can get from him what they'd hoped to get from Geremy Davis, but never did.
NOW that is useful information regarding special teams. I mean, he is a big guy with speed so if he is effective on specials like T. King is that would help his cause very much. I think we carry 6 wideouts because D. Harris isn't going to get much time at WR unless we are really hit with injuries. Go Powe!
I might roll the dice and go with only eight OLs on the roster.  
Klaatu : 7/5/2017 7:53 pm : link
Flowers, Pugh, Richburg, Jerry, and Hart as the starting five.

Bisnowaty would be my swing-tackle (assuming he doesn't get the starting RT job), Brett Jones, who can back-up Pugh and Richburg (and the odds are that it will be Pugh for a couple of games, at least), and Fluker, for either spot on the right side (God help us).

Dunker and Wheeler to the PS.
What the heck is LaCosse's regiment? Is that like Arnie's Army?  
Ivan15 : 7/5/2017 7:56 pm : link
Or did you mean regimen?

And what does Luke Pettigout have to do with the 2017 Giants? Is he coming out of retirement to fill in at LT?
Instead of six LBs and four Safeties...  
Klaatu : 7/5/2017 8:11 pm : link
I'd go with five LBs and five Safeties. We're going to be in sub-packages more often than not, and I'd like to keep a versatile kid like Pinkins around. I'd say goodbye to J.T. Thomas and Nat Berhe, and replace them with Pinkins and Jadar Johnson.
RE: What the heck is LaCosse's regiment? Is that like Arnie's Army?  
SGMen : 7/5/2017 8:12 pm : link
In comment 13520540 Ivan15 said:
Quote:
Or did you mean regimen?

And what does Luke Pettigout have to do with the 2017 Giants? Is he coming out of retirement to fill in at LT?
Pugh not Petitvout
RE: I might roll the dice and go with only eight OLs on the roster.  
SGMen : 7/5/2017 8:18 pm : link
In comment 13520536 Klaatu said:
Quote:
Flowers, Pugh, Richburg, Jerry, and Hart as the starting five.

Bisnowaty would be my swing-tackle (assuming he doesn't get the starting RT job), Brett Jones, who can back-up Pugh and Richburg (and the odds are that it will be Pugh for a couple of games, at least), and Fluker, for either spot on the right side (God help us).

Dunker and Wheeler to the PS.
Pugh, Fluker and Jones have some versatility. It is certainly possible we carry 8 on the active roster to start the season and stack the practice squad. I mean, if we cut Gettis how many teams are really going to chase after him? He may be there in a few weeks when we re-organize the roster due to injuries or even performance as this tends to happen most every year.
I just hope Dunker & Wheeler develop.
Dunker and Wheeler are the type of raw prospects...  
Klaatu : 7/5/2017 9:09 pm : link
That the Giants have failed to develop in recent years. Hopefully that changes with these two kids, because they've definitely got the tools to succeed if they're both brought along properly.

Both need to improve their core strength, and a year under the tutelage of Aaron Wellman and his staff should do them a world of good. In addition, their technique needs to be refined, and that's a job for Mike Solari and his staff.

Wheeler's injury history is very troubling, and I hope he can shake that bug this summer. He made it through the OTAs unscathed, so there's a little hope there.
Thinking about DT  
SGMen : 7/5/2017 9:35 pm : link
I have a feeling we will see Bromley, Thomas and Tomlinson at certain points of games next to snacks. Thomas will give Snacks a breather I guess.

Tomlinson has a learning curve, for sure, but anyone out there think he is the starter before long?
I don't think the Giants have had a rookie DT start...  
Klaatu : 7/5/2017 9:56 pm : link
Since Barry Cofield, 2006. Not even fellow second-round picks Linval Joseph and Johnathan Hankins started as rookies, although each saw some playing time, so I wouldn't expect Tomlinson to start next to Snacks this year unless one of two things happens. In camp, Tomlinson proves himself to be light-years better than Robert Thomas and Jay Bromley (and Corbin Bryant, too, I suppose), or a couple of those guys get hurt (God forbid) and Tomlinson has to fill in.

I figure the Giants will keep four DTs on the roster as they usually do, but they also usually activate only three on gamedays. Without question, Tomlinson is a lock to make the team, but how much action he actually sees this year remains to be seen.
RE: I don't think the Giants have had a rookie DT start...  
SGMen : 7/6/2017 7:02 am : link
In comment 13520615 Klaatu said:
Quote:
Since Barry Cofield, 2006. Not even fellow second-round picks Linval Joseph and Johnathan Hankins started as rookies, although each saw some playing time, so I wouldn't expect Tomlinson to start next to Snacks this year unless one of two things happens. In camp, Tomlinson proves himself to be light-years better than Robert Thomas and Jay Bromley (and Corbin Bryant, too, I suppose), or a couple of those guys get hurt (God forbid) and Tomlinson has to fill in.

I figure the Giants will keep four DTs on the roster as they usually do, but they also usually activate only three on gamedays. Without question, Tomlinson is a lock to make the team, but how much action he actually sees this year remains to be seen.
If I had to guess, I'd say DT Robert Thomas and his big frame start on 1st downs and 2nd downs. On 3rd down we will likely see Romeo Okwara come in if it is 6 or more yards? I was hoping OWA would develop and be that inside pass rush guy but he has issues and is out of the loop for now at least. UFA Taylor can also rush from the inside as I understand it.

Too bad we couldn't re-sign DT Hankins to a Giant friendly contract, even a one year deal so he can prove himself on a stud defense. But the Giants clearly didn't think much of him and bye-bye to Indy.
All of our DEs can rush from the inside.  
Klaatu : 7/6/2017 7:39 am : link
One of the reasons why only three DTs get activated. However, as much as JPP and OV don't like to come off the field - ever - I think the Giants would prefer to reduce the number of snaps they play, if only a little bit, to reduce the possibility of injury and to keep them fresher down the stretch.

As for Hankins, he's lucky that the DT situation in Indy was such a mess. I'm happy he got paid - I really liked him in the draft - but there was no way we were going to pay him the kind of money he got from the Colts. He's a good player, and I'll miss him, but he was hardly a game-changer and his loss shouldn't hurt us too much.
Each year people..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 7/6/2017 8:17 am : link
say teams need to follow the Patriots way of doing things or there is a huge discussion about the bottom 1/3rd of the roster, yet the way the Giants treat that bottom third is very much like the Pats.

We keep guys like Herz, not for his LB skills or his every down skills, but for ST's. The battle for the last WR, the last S, the last LB often comes down to utility, not overall talent because it is unlikely those guys will need to play in the field, and if they do - we are already fucked.

It isn't even the argument that you need all-stars at every position - it is the argument that you need to have competent role players that not all reserves are ideal for.
RE: All of our DEs can rush from the inside.  
SGMen : 7/6/2017 8:18 am : link
In comment 13520733 Klaatu said:
Quote:
One of the reasons why only three DTs get activated. However, as much as JPP and OV don't like to come off the field - ever - I think the Giants would prefer to reduce the number of snaps they play, if only a little bit, to reduce the possibility of injury and to keep them fresher down the stretch.

As for Hankins, he's lucky that the DT situation in Indy was such a mess. I'm happy he got paid - I really liked him in the draft - but there was no way we were going to pay him the kind of money he got from the Colts. He's a good player, and I'll miss him, but he was hardly a game-changer and his loss shouldn't hurt us too much.
I agree, JPP and Vernon want to stay on the field as much as possible; however, because we have backup talent worth something in R. Okwara & D. Taylor, you've got to be smart and rotate somewhat. Especially with all the travel we'll be doing guys are going to be exhausted in fourth quarters unless we pace them.
This offense will be a little more TOP oriented so our defense should be a bit better rested. If you look at New England an how they won the SB, it was due to a better than 2 to 1 snaps advantage and ATL was just exhausted. Brady is the master at quickly hitting the most open man based on defensive alignment and I think Eli will have success doing this in 2017 as well.

Guys like Marshall, Shepard, Engram and perhaps Adams at TE should just run 3 yards and turn their bodies for an easy 5 yard reception much of the time. Or just dump to Perkins, Vereen or even Gallman if he learns the offense quickly.

So while I got off topic here, the idea is to negate pass rush with quick strikes. Teams will try that on us though our DB's an LB Robinson are excellent in all coverages..
The problem is  
area junc : 7/6/2017 8:36 am : link
Herzlich is not a good special teams player. He took 2 punt return TDs off the board with holding calls last year. Thats a liability.

If the Giants cut him he'd be out of the NFL unless Tom picked him up.

Actually..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 7/6/2017 8:42 am : link
Herz has graded out as the best Giants ST'er for a few years now.

I'm surprised a guy with insider access doesn't know this.
RE: Actually..  
SGMen : 7/6/2017 9:20 am : link
In comment 13520791 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
Herz has graded out as the best Giants ST'er for a few years now.

I'm surprised a guy with insider access doesn't know this.
I didn't realize he graded out the best special teams player. No wonder Herzlich ends up on the squad each year.
Not sure I ever saw published grades on ST players for Giants  
Jimmy Googs : 7/6/2017 10:27 am : link
please send link if anyone has it.

Herz has always been known as an above average ST player, mostly because of the pure effort (versus talent) he displays.

But also likely some portion of that is because several of our units were well-below average for years following the last Super Bowl win, and Herzlich probably looked like a good egg amongst the bad.

With better drafting, building a better roster from top to bottom, my guess is he has more competition from others on the team. I thought Goodson and Skinner both had good ST years in 2016 and maybe have passed him at this point...
RE: Not sure I ever saw published grades on ST players for Giants  
SGMen : 7/6/2017 3:54 pm : link
In comment 13520936 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
please send link if anyone has it.

Herz has always been known as an above average ST player, mostly because of the pure effort (versus talent) he displays.

But also likely some portion of that is because several of our units were well-below average for years following the last Super Bowl win, and Herzlich probably looked like a good egg amongst the bad.

With better drafting, building a better roster from top to bottom, my guess is he has more competition from others on the team. I thought Goodson and Skinner both had good ST years in 2016 and maybe have passed him at this point...
I'm not aware of any posted ST grades either. Herzlich goes the extra mile: ST's, long snapper, can play all 3 LB positions in a pinch, etc.

I wouldn't want him starting, of course, but you can't have everything. I like this UDFA D. Munson kid but figure him for PS this year. I think Herlich may be a potential future long snapper for us, 2020 or thereabouts perhaps?
RE: All of our DEs can rush from the inside.  
SGMen : 7/6/2017 3:58 pm : link
In comment 13520733 Klaatu said:
Quote:
One of the reasons why only three DTs get activated. However, as much as JPP and OV don't like to come off the field - ever - I think the Giants would prefer to reduce the number of snaps they play, if only a little bit, to reduce the possibility of injury and to keep them fresher down the stretch.

As for Hankins, he's lucky that the DT situation in Indy was such a mess. I'm happy he got paid - I really liked him in the draft - but there was no way we were going to pay him the kind of money he got from the Colts. He's a good player, and I'll miss him, but he was hardly a game-changer and his loss shouldn't hurt us too much.
The good news about Indy over-paying is that we may in fact end up with a compensatory pick, maybe a 6th rounder even.
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