He was on Skip Bayless' show yesterday and basically said that Rice played with 2 Hall of Fame QBs, while he did more with less. Mentions that he could had Rice's numbers if he played with Young and Montana. Thoughts?
Who, when TO wasn't around, consistently produced more with less.
I don't know, Garcia, Romo and McNabb all had their career highs in TD passes in years they played with TO.
Garcia didn't put up great numbers after he separated from TO and neither did McNabb (they both did continue to win, however).
Ah, now I see that my post could have been clearer.
Obviously, all these QBs looked the best opposite TO, one of the greatest WRs ever.
What I actually meant was that Garcia, McNabb and Romo were all fine QBs because in general they seemed to be able to wring more production out of their offenses with sub-TO talent. That is to say that after TO left, they still vastly upgraded their respective teams.
But I agree that their fantasy value peaked when throwing to TO.
1) People saying CJ is the best ever just based on his size/speed combination? Yes, best size/speed combination in history, but there is a lot more to being a receiver than just physical gifts. Also this is not to say CJ wasn't a great route runner or didn't have great hands, just saying physical gifts are not the noly thing I would base my choice on.
2) Jerry Rice did have the luxury of playing with Joe Montana and Steve Young for his entire career. Two of the best quarterbacks of all time. I think you could even argue no receiver has ever had better quarter-back play over the full course of his career. Randy Moss only got to play with a GOAT when he went to the Pats, and when he did he broke the record for most Rec TDs in a season at the age of 30.
Harrison is close. Basically played his entire career with Peyton.
was pretty much flawless as a player. The deep threat Moss was, built like a TE, and an excellent route runner that could line up anywhere.
1300+ and 12 TDs on a winless team. Freak o' nature.
I don't think anyone in history was exactly the deep threat that Moss was, especially in his prime. Literally he would be triple-covered the QB could just throw it in his general vicinity 50 yards downfield and he would make the play. It was insane.
So a lot like these?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8tCdCWB1LM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTPiMEU1YLY
6'5, 240 pound freak with 4.3 speed and rankings in the 90+ percentile all time in terms of heigh, weight, speed, vertical jump, and broad jump. 96+ percentile in 4 of those categories.
You also can't compare career stats ... he only played 9 seasons. Here's his per season average:
~1300 yards, 9 TDs - on generally garbage teams with little help on offense (i.e. double coverage all day)
Calvin johnson is the most physically talented WR to ever play.
Compared to Julio Jones: CJ is bigger, faster 40, with a higher vert/broad jump. I don't think enough people realize how special Johnson truly was.
I think people realize how physically gifted and special Johnson truly was...but thats not really what the OP was about. You're moving off-topic to prove your point.
but I sometimes find myself driving down the road on my long commute and I can clearly see him dropping the ball going over the middle and the rest is history
His biggest positive is the length of time he played at a high level (and therefore his amazing career stats)
His biggest negative is the quality of QBs he had throwing him the ball for the vast majority of his career.
The fact that there are legitimate arguments that Rice isn't the greatest WR of all time (unless you factor longevity as a prime / overriding factor) says Rice is NOT the overall GOAT.
LT caused a fundamental change in how the game was played. Rice did not.
I never remember being "scared" of playing Jerry Rice; the whole Walsh, Montana, Craig, Lott, Rice 49ers - yes.
Owens took over the 2002 playoff game; Rice didn't do that against the Giants. Rice should be rated higher than Owens, but it is a fair question to ask.
I think alot of the WR in the last 20 years were overrated as the game changed. Moss and Owens were just absolute beasts that would have dominated any era. Megatron would be a top 10 candidate.
was pretty much flawless as a player. The deep threat Moss was, built like a TE, and an excellent route runner that could line up anywhere.
1300+ and 12 TDs on a winless team. Freak o' nature.
I don't think anyone in history was exactly the deep threat that Moss was, especially in his prime. Literally he would be triple-covered the QB could just throw it in his general vicinity 50 yards downfield and he would make the play. It was insane.
So a lot like these?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8tCdCWB1LM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTPiMEU1YLY
6'5, 240 pound freak with 4.3 speed and rankings in the 90+ percentile all time in terms of heigh, weight, speed, vertical jump, and broad jump. 96+ percentile in 4 of those categories.
You also can't compare career stats ... he only played 9 seasons. Here's his per season average:
~1300 yards, 9 TDs - on generally garbage teams with little help on offense (i.e. double coverage all day)
Calvin johnson is the most physically talented WR to ever play.
Compared to Julio Jones: CJ is bigger, faster 40, with a higher vert/broad jump. I don't think enough people realize how special Johnson truly was.
I think people realize how physically gifted and special Johnson truly was...but thats not really what the OP was about. You're moving off-topic to prove your point.
My point is I think he's the best WR ever. He chose to retire early, so I'm judging him on how he played when he actually did - not simply comparing career numbers that can be inflated by simply staying around longer
Then I see Julio mentioned, and I simply point out that Johnson was essentially a bigger, slightly more athletic version of him. There's also videos of him doing things that made "Moss so special" - another receiver Johnson was actually bigger than.
Blah blah blah, Calvin Johnson is the best WR talent to ever play the game
Jim Brown and Barry Sanders don't have the state Emmot Smith
Wound up with. Anyone taking Emmit over those two?
I'll take Calvin over TO. Not meant to be a slam on TO BTW. More pointing out people using career stats. And the Lions even w him were pretty mediocre at best. Very rarely a running game. Context needs to be considered.
Randy Moss was the most unstoppable receiver I've ever seen
In the twilight of his career, in 1993, he led the Chiefs, who had 1 playoff win in the previous 3 seasons to the AFC Championship game, and probably would've taken that team to the Super Bowl had he not gotten concussed early in the 3rd quarter. They lost 13-6.
Physically he wasn't the most gifted receiver ever, but he was the best because he had the best hands and was one of the greatest route runners ever.
To me, Megatron is in the conversation. Had he kept playing, he'd have put up those big numbers that would measure up with all the other greats.
I think he's 3rd after Rice and Moss, T.O. is 4th, and Fitz is 5th. But Julio, Brown, and OBJ could all be in that top 5 when all is said and done. OBJ has a chance to be the best ever.
I don't think TO is in the conversation and so many here have him rated third...
Inconsistent drops at critical moments who blew up locker rooms wherever he went. How can you separate that and judge him exclusively from that? It was integral to what he was..
Teams let him go for nothing in return...That matters..that reflects on his value. They released the man just to get rid of him.
He virtually had no value and his preening and bigmouth disruptiveness is integral to his ability.
What I'm hearing is "if you separated TO from his disruptiveness you have a great player", as far as I'm concerned then Greg Harvey was a great player - if you separated his drug use and abusive pattern from the whole.
You're picking and it's Fitzgerald or TO.....you have to be a maniac to pick TO.
TO or Plax...I take Plax, so how can TO be among the greatest?. Matter of fact, the choice is not only easy it's indisputable.
In my judgement the man is not in the conversation. Not top ten, not top 50...Don't want him...my team is going to get worse if I add him.
I don't think TO is in the conversation and so many here have him rated third...
Inconsistent drops at critical moments who blew up locker rooms wherever he went. How can you separate that and judge him exclusively from that? It was integral to what he was..
Teams let him go for nothing in return...That matters..that reflects on his value. They released the man just to get rid of him.
He virtually had no value and his preening and bigmouth disruptiveness is integral to his ability.
What I'm hearing is "if you separated TO from his disruptiveness you have a great player", as far as I'm concerned then Greg Harvey was a great player - if you separated his drug use and abusive pattern from the whole.
You're picking and it's Fitzgerald or TO.....you have to be a maniac to pick TO.
TO or Plax...I take Plax, so how can TO be among the greatest?. Matter of fact, the choice is not only easy it's indisputable. Not top ten, not top 50...Don't want him...my team is going to get worse if I add him. Therefore he is not a great player.
please point out some of TO's "inconsistent drops at critical moments"?
The guy was a locker room cancer and a distraction, but what he did on the field was excellent.
People are saying that Rice had the "best hands ever" on this thread and that TO didn't. Yet, there is little evidence to show that TO had issues with drops or that Rice didn't. They didn't even track drops when Rice played.
From opposing DB is that he ran the last routes of the last pressure filled games at the same speed and same steps and same angles as he ran the first quarter of the seasons first quarter.
What I remember DBs saying is that you could cover him because you knew where he was going but that you could not make a single mistake. You could keep that up for 2 or 3 quarters but doing it perfectly all game was a mountain to climb and he only needed a step.
I think if stats were available I remember reading that his catches and yards and TD per quarter always showed he got better as the game wore on.
My impression is that the physical freaks like Moss and CJ won because they were physically beyond other folks skills. Rice won on iron will and discipline.
So for a game...Moss and TO and Megatron. For a season Moss. But if you want to draft a WR to give you 18 to 20 years of 1000 yards and vital TD when it mattered...a franchise WR if you will; then there is no comparison. Unlike the others Rice made 18 to 20 years of QB better
Played with the Cowboys he killed the Giants, he was a huge problem, why, because he was a great player, he gave the Giants the same headache he gave every other team he faced. He had drops, just like every other receiver, to even think he is not a hall of fame player makes you a moron. Rice, Moss, and Owens are the three best I have seen not including the new wave of great receivers like Beckham, Brown, Jones and Green. It is too early to compare them to these greats. Harrison was right there with the big three, but in my opinion those were the big three, then you also add Megatron. The only hall of fame that is real is the baseball hall of fame, and even that is not perfect with Kirby Puckett in there, sorry it is a pet peeve of mine. The others are jokes, and this is a joke.
was never a good QB. Randy Moss made him good because of the fact that you could throw it to him anywhere on the field with 20 guys draped over him and he'd still catch it.
was probably the best "go route" WR ever. Definitely top 3 all time. However, he was soft - especially mentally. You could take him out of the game (or he'd basically take himself out of the game) if he didn't get a few catches in the first quarter. Despite his talent, several teams grew sick of him. If I was starting a team and all were in their primes: Calvin Johnson, Jerry Rice, Randy Moss.
Just watch these 3 short clips of Calvin Johnson and tell me he isn't the most talented WR to ever play the sport. Physicality, speed, superhuman leaping ability*
And have been made by plenty. What makes the fact that Calvin Johnson is doing it so much better? That he's big?
You can take Johnson all day if you want. He's certainly in the discussion. And there's no clear cut choice for #1...though you seem determined to make it so.
Is a first ballot hall of fame player, no ifs ands or buts, he is not in because of spite work, which tells me that there is zero object ability and integrity in the voters, and the hall of fame for football is a complete and total sham.
I love guys like this...no other opinion counts...there's no "it seems to me" or "I think", this chump deals in absolutes.....I know what it is, everybody else lacks objectivity and is a sham".
Well guess what Mr. Omniscious?, I disagree. Answer one question, you're building a roster, your choice is Plaxico or TO. Not close, you're going to take Plax - that is, if winning matters.
It's not just talent, though I suggest the talent is closer than people think..It's about a host of things.
TO dropped more balls than I've ever seen from a top receiver, and a dropped ball is an emotional as well as a drive killer.
You think the clubhouses he destroyed, the teams he set back don't count.... I do.
If Shockey and Tiki denigrated Eli, imagine what TO would have done. Just another reason why your pick logicaly would have to be Plax over TO. Or Fitz over TO or probably Toomer over TO....we couldn't have won with TO and I suppose the question is...why that doesn't matter to you. Why isn't that part of the equation?
Look, if you will, at that superb Dallas team we beat in 2007. They were loaded, three offensive lineman were all pros, Barbara for a RB, Witten when he was Witten, a superb Romo and a defense that was loaded with Ware the all pro nose guard and sprinkled wiht superb players.
The match ups favored them too, the big Adams one of the few players who could make Osi disappear.
TO could have been the straw...and put them over the top... He just, in my opinion, didn't make them better...Not like a HOF'er should.
Bottom line,,, I'm sorry the poster can't see the other side and sorrier that when he sees knowledgeable and caring people who sit on the HOF committee go against TO, that his only recouse is to label them stupid and a sham...But of course, because they disagree, because they consider the damange he did to teams he played on...they have no integrity, zero objectivity and it's a wonder that our poster isn't getting a gun to elminate them.
Answer one question, you're building a roster, your choice is Plaxico or TO. Not close, you're going to take Plax - that is, if winning matters.
You're going to take the guy who had a poor work ethic, missed meetings, half-assed practices and ended up sabotaging a possible repeat Super Bowl because he has a ring?
Hate Owens as a Cancer, but he had a great work ethic and never took a team that was on its way to a Championship and derailed it by being a selfish dumbass, and that's saying a lot knowing all the things TO did do.
Plax, despite his stupidity, was one of my all-time favorite
Answer one question, you're building a roster, your choice is Plaxico or TO. Not close, you're going to take Plax - that is, if winning matters.
You're going to take the guy who had a poor work ethic, missed meetings, half-assed practices and ended up sabotaging a possible repeat Super Bowl because he has a ring?
Hate Owens as a Cancer, but he had a great work ethic and never took a team that was on its way to a Championship and derailed it by being a selfish dumbass, and that's saying a lot knowing all the things TO did do.
If memory serves, TO was every bit as important to the Eagles getting to the Super Bowl as Plax was for the Giants. And TO never put a bullet in his leg.
And have been made by plenty. What makes the fact that Calvin Johnson is doing it so much better? That he's big?
You can take Johnson all day if you want. He's certainly in the discussion. And there's no clear cut choice for #1...though you seem determined to make it so.
... feel free to post something that suggests Calvin Johnson isn't the most physically gifted WR to every play. Randy Moss has a faster 40 - Johnson has everything else. With 4.3 speed and a larger frame.
I don't know if anyone ever saw TO's reality TV show, but on that program he came off as a nice guy - but very immature. Some people just don't ever get the interpersonal skills to work well in a team of people and TO certainly seems to fit this category. I don't think he was ever (or is now) a bad person - anti-social - criminal - that kind of thing. Just seems really immature.
As a receiver, he was tremendous but - yeah - being let go for nothing - that would take him out of the running as GOAT for me at least.
of TO having "horrible" or inconsistent hands originated from a game in which he caught the winning TD? A game in which he did have a case of the "dropsies" as ALL RECIEVERS do from time to time (yes, even the immortals that have been mentioned on this thread all had their share of games where they seemingly couldn't catch a cold.)
San Fran at Green Bay: the last gasp of the Walsh/Policy 49ers... (Walsh had been long gone by this game, but what was left of the core of the team had been built by him)
Rice had missed almost the entire previous season with a torn ACL. He came back in 1998 better than anyone could have expected, but it was obvious that he was on the downside of his career. Young was a concussion away from being in the broadcast booth. TO was the heir apparent to Rice. After a less than stellar rookie season, the 3rd round pick showed he could be a #1 receiver when Rice went down in '97. In '98 even with Rice opposite him, he had his first 1000yd receiving year.
They were up against the new powerhouse of the NFC, the Green Bay Packers who were looking to avenge their surprising Super Bowl upset the previous year and who had beaten the 49ers 5 games in a row (The Pack for a time were to the 9ers what the Cowboys had been to the Pack.)
Anyway, TO had several key drops in the first 3 quarters of that game which of course had the announcers all over his case- no, he's not Rice. Rice plays big in big games, this kid is coming up small.
Maybe it was because a few plays prior, instant replay showed that Rice clearly fumbled the ball away on a play that the refs ruled him down by contact (no challenges or replay officials back then), or maybe it was because the commentators had continually talked about TO choking, I don't know- but for some reason people remember the drops from that game much more than they remember the winning TD that TO held onto while being sandwiched between two defenders. He's been unfairly labeled as a guy with questionable hands since. Seems anytime he would have a drop from that game forward, the announcers would bring up either the myth of his poor hands or that game specifically as proof of his poor hands.
Anyway- I'd put Moss and Harrison above him on the all time greats list. He's top 10, definitely. His behavior keeps him from being 1A or 2 or 3.
And have been made by plenty. What makes the fact that Calvin Johnson is doing it so much better? That he's big?
You can take Johnson all day if you want. He's certainly in the discussion. And there's no clear cut choice for #1...though you seem determined to make it so.
... feel free to post something that suggests Calvin Johnson isn't the most physically gifted WR to every play. Randy Moss has a faster 40 - Johnson has everything else. With 4.3 speed and a larger frame.
The point of the thread isn't who's the most physically gifted, so why would I waste time posting about it?
Feel free to start a thread on who the most physically gifted WR in NFL history is if you want. And be sure to analyze every receiver that ever played the game since being physically gifted does not always translate into success. Have fun.
was changing, he impacted the sport as much as much as Sid Luckman or Sammy Baugh.
Luckman, the Bears and coach Halas adopted Clark Shaugnessy's theories of The T formationand won the NFL championship game 73-0. Football changed immediately.
Landry brought in track speed in the person of Bob Hayes and the game was immediately and dramatically changed again.
The point of this thread (as I see it) is that there's more than just talent...TO is justifiably penalised in that regard and Hayes should be rewarded.
the fact that he is not in the hall is the miscarriage, and not TO's exclusion.
but I would take him over TO. and if the gun makes it close the point is , I would take a lot of non hof'ers over TO because even if they weren't as good they weren't destructive.
On the field of play. In that aspect he's in the conversation. That fact in consideration of how many teams he played on sheds light on just how damaging his off the field bullshit was.
Was just having this conversation over the weekend
with a friend. I think it's accurate to say that if the Eagles would have just paid TO what they should have paid him to keep him then both he and Donovan McNabb would be in the HOF right now.
attached a nice little video of their "relationship". I factor in locker room drama ... Moss/TO would not be my first choice for WR's all time, despite the incredible talent.
So, down to Rice vs Megatron for me ... per game averages [
you're starting a team, both in prime ... I'll take the guy with 3 inches, 40 pounds, and better athleticism - who produced as well, if not better, without hall of fame QBs on some of the worst teams in NFL history.
Calvin Johnson is the best WR to ever play this sport.
attached a nice little video of their "relationship". I factor in locker room drama ... Moss/TO would not be my first choice for WR's all time, despite the incredible talent.
So, down to Rice vs Megatron for me ... per game averages [
you're starting a team, both in prime ... I'll take the guy with 3 inches, 40 pounds, and better athleticism - who produced as well, if not better, without hall of fame QBs on some of the worst teams in NFL history.
Calvin Johnson is the best WR to ever play this sport.
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Your stats lack context. You need to weigh them with number of passing plays per game average for the teams they played on during their careers. They played in two entirely different eras.
I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong- Magatron is in the comversation...although longevity does play a part and hurts him, IMO.
Is mental. Something wrong, in every instance he paints himself as the victim. Every locker room was loused up, only TO is sane, operating in a world gone wrong.
The pattern is repeating itself. Wearing the HOF jacket is inflamatory and wrong in every sense of the word. The public outcry inappropriate but he's going to look at this situation from eyes that are programmed prisms, "I am the victim".
Wearing the HOF jacket is inflamatory and wrong in every sense of the word. The public outcry inappropriate but he's going to look at this situation from eyes that are programmed prisms, "I am the victim".
You do realize he is definitely going to be wearing the jacket, just not as a first ballot HOF'er, right?
This is just a situation where the voters are "punishing" a guy who really deserves to be there immediately. TO will be in next year, just as Strahan was in on a second ballot.
Early in Jerry Rice's career, he was known for dropped passes...
I believe he had double digit drops in 1985 and was booed several times by SF fans for big drops and fumbles in critical situations...
In the 1986 season, Jerry Rice inexplicably fumbled away a sure fire touchdown at the start of the divisional playoff vs the Giants... As I recall, he wasn't even touched and there was nothing between him and the end zone... SF never recovered...
Jerry Rice was held to one reception in two massive games against the Giants in the 1990 season...
Jerry Rice was a great player, but he was hardly what I would consider a "clutch" athlete... I recall his best big game performance as SB XXIV, a game that was never in doubt against a team that didn't belong on the field with the 49ers...
RE: Early in Jerry Rice's career, he was known for dropped passes...
I believe he had double digit drops in 1985 and was booed several times by SF fans for big drops and fumbles in critical situations...
In the 1986 season, Jerry Rice inexplicably fumbled away a sure fire touchdown at the start of the divisional playoff vs the Giants... As I recall, he wasn't even touched and there was nothing between him and the end zone... SF never recovered...
Jerry Rice was held to one reception in two massive games against the Giants in the 1990 season...
Jerry Rice was a great player, but he was hardly what I would consider a "clutch" athlete... I recall his best big game performance as SB XXIV, a game that was never in doubt against a team that didn't belong on the field with the 49ers...
All true.
I will say though that for the most part, it was only the Giants that seemed to be able to make him disappear in big games. Much like they were able to do with Jim Brown (thanks to #70) compared to the rest of the league. It doesn't make Jim Brown less of a player. Hell, our own LT was almost invisible when the Giants played the Rams in the late 80's.
Although we like to believe these "all time greats" were some sort of football gods, every single one of them had bad games or relatively bad games against certain opponents.
Comments like some of the ones above about Calvin Johnson being able to catch passes while being defended by 5 guys are worthless...sure amazing plays happen now and then- and more often for the great players- but so do horrible plays and games....even for the great players.
I do wonder how all of the folks going on about the undeniable physical skills of Johnson reconcile his relatively low TD receptions...considering he had unbelievable spend and agility with the frame of a TE.
RE: RE: Early in Jerry Rice's career, he was known for dropped passes...
I believe he had double digit drops in 1985 and was booed several times by SF fans for big drops and fumbles in critical situations...
In the 1986 season, Jerry Rice inexplicably fumbled away a sure fire touchdown at the start of the divisional playoff vs the Giants... As I recall, he wasn't even touched and there was nothing between him and the end zone... SF never recovered...
Jerry Rice was held to one reception in two massive games against the Giants in the 1990 season...
Jerry Rice was a great player, but he was hardly what I would consider a "clutch" athlete... I recall his best big game performance as SB XXIV, a game that was never in doubt against a team that didn't belong on the field with the 49ers...
All true.
I will say though that for the most part, it was only the Giants that seemed to be able to make him disappear in big games. Much like they were able to do with Jim Brown (thanks to #70) compared to the rest of the league. It doesn't make Jim Brown less of a player. Hell, our own LT was almost invisible when the Giants played the Rams in the late 80's.
Although we like to believe these "all time greats" were some sort of football gods, every single one of them had bad games or relatively bad games against certain opponents.
Comments like some of the ones above about Calvin Johnson being able to catch passes while being defended by 5 guys are worthless...sure amazing plays happen now and then- and more often for the great players- but so do horrible plays and games....even for the great players.
I do wonder how all of the folks going on about the undeniable physical skills of Johnson reconcile his relatively low TD receptions...considering he had unbelievable spend and agility with the frame of a TE.
his TDs were on par per game with jerry rice ... also tough to score TDs when most of your teams/QBs have been horrendous
if you are a star player on a team with a below average running game and TE position, one can argue that you will be the main scorer, which tends to negate the QB quality issue.
Look at great players on abysmal teams. Even bad teams score - and those great players get them.
You can make an argument that playing with a mediocre QB, but being the only realistic TD target is going to result in more TD's than being on a team with stars and a QB who can thread the ball to anyone. Sort of the Bills with OJ Simpson vs. the Packers with above average WR's and Rodgers spreading the ball around.
if you are a star player on a team with a below average running game and TE position, one can argue that you will be the main scorer, which tends to negate the QB quality issue.
Look at great players on abysmal teams. Even bad teams score - and those great players get them.
You can make an argument that playing with a mediocre QB, but being the only realistic TD target is going to result in more TD's than being on a team with stars and a QB who can thread the ball to anyone. Sort of the Bills with OJ Simpson vs. the Packers with above average WR's and Rodgers spreading the ball around.
he averaged 9 TDs a season ... and produced more yards per game than jerry rice ... but yeah he should've done more with guys like Dan Orlovsky and defenses knowing he was getting the ball
Averaging more YPG than Rice isn't that difficult when Montana and Young had Taylor, Craig, their feet and several other contributors.
Sort of like the OBJ effect. Even last year when the Giants offense wasn't great, they put some TD's up - and Beckham got quite a few of them, even though people know he's getting the ball.
By the way - the NFL is filled with guys you know are going to get the ball. But it still is damn hard to stop - not even just from a talent standpoint, but because excessive double-teams on the outside WR are rare, because of the exposure it leaves for the rest of the defense. Let's not make it sound like defenses put 3 men on Johnson while Rice was going against a NT.
Averaging more YPG than Rice isn't that difficult when Montana and Young had Taylor, Craig, their feet and several other contributors.
Sort of like the OBJ effect. Even last year when the Giants offense wasn't great, they put some TD's up - and Beckham got quite a few of them, even though people know he's getting the ball.
By the way - the NFL is filled with guys you know are going to get the ball. But it still is damn hard to stop - not even just from a talent standpoint, but because excessive double-teams on the outside WR are rare, because of the exposure it leaves for the rest of the defense. Let's not make it sound like defenses put 3 men on Johnson while Rice was going against a NT.
...
I already posted 2 TDs Calvin johnson put up vs triple coverage, so ... theres this:
some games there were 0 snaps he saw man coverage at the snap ...
theres also times from actually watching them play where you can see for yourself just how much attention defenses gave him in the redzone ...
not sure why I'm bothering, but still waiting for an actual legit argument against Calvin johnson being the best WR ever. he chose to retire early? ok ... anything else?
His biggest positive is the length of time he played at a high level (and therefore his amazing career stats)
His biggest negative is the quality of QBs he had throwing him the ball for the vast majority of his career.
The fact that there are legitimate arguments that Rice isn't the greatest WR of all time (unless you factor longevity as a prime / overriding factor) says Rice is NOT the overall GOAT.
LT caused a fundamental change in how the game was played. Rice did not.
I never remember being "scared" of playing Jerry Rice; the whole Walsh, Montana, Craig, Lott, Rice 49ers - yes.
Owens took over the 2002 playoff game; Rice didn't do that against the Giants. Rice should be rated higher than Owens, but it is a fair question to ask.
Well Rice did have two huge plays against the Giants....one was fumbled away, the other was a game winner at the Meadowlands. The latter is the type of play that a Randy Moss nor TO have in their resume, and notably Brady or Peyton as well....
Don't think any individual WR killed those Belichick coordinated LT defenses back then. And don't forget John Taylor scored all the 49er TDs against the Giants in '90....Rice was clearly schemed for.
awesome WRs play for my team, so much so that I've been paying the price since 2004 starving for what many of us call a mere "#1".....SMH....LOL.
Thoughts:
Rice - As some have alluded to, no weaknesses. None. Played the game at a very high level for a super long time. His stats at 40+ were comparable to Michael Crabtree in his prime. And even if they were a bit lower....he's still 40+!!
And don't forget you had Rich Gannon QBing the latter Rice years and whomever was QB for Seattle back then...Hasselbeck? Good QBs, but not HoF.
I don't inject too much homer bias in calling Rice the GOAT WR even if I have the blessing from all the fanbases to do so. What I will say is that Rice maximized his playing career more than anyone in the NFL since and possibly ever will.
All that talent was translated year after year after year without fail. Only injuries could stop him. 22 TDs in 12 games in 1987, while it took Randy a full 16 games to hit that number and break it (similar to OJ and his 2003 yard season). Then in 1995 with no RIcky Watters and the running game long gone he goes on to catch for over 1800 yards...only broken by Megatron?? Think about that.
And of course will there ever be a 40+ year old to notch a receiving TD in a Super Bowl (against an elite defense no less)? Doubtful.
I will say that Rice changed the game a bit. To say that LT was the only one is homerish. Rice invented RAC. He had RAC abilities at a 4.7 40 that you need an Odell Beckham level speed to reproduce in the modern NFL. I think Fitzgerald is the only WR with Rice's slowish measurables to produce at that level.
As far as peers, it's been said by Niner brass that John Taylor could do everything Rice could do, and you watch the tape and often saw the same player. And outside of a few ridiculous single game performances that were every bit as good as Rice, he didn't come close to having Rice's career. I say that as JT was my favorite player ever.
Rice had a chip on his shoulder from rookie season to the very, very end. You could list a theoretical 15 WRs that could have played in SF with Montana and Young from '85 - '98 that should have been able to do the same, and I bet none of them would have been able to do it.
TO - A bit underrated I think. In the Moss vs. TO debate, I might be biased as I identify TO as a Niner, but man he was certifiably great if his career was just with SF, let alone all of the other teams he played for. He produced at a high level for Philly, Dallas, and wasn't chopped liver with Buffalo or Cincy either. He basically Kapped his career....yeah, I said it....no reason he couldn't have played at least 2011, 2012 probably....
His catch to beat the Packers in 1998 playoff game, iconic. Great throw by Young and maybe the Packers screwed up the coverage but that was a catch made in traffic you can't expect many WRs in the history of the game to make at that moment. And he did it in his 3rd season while still an unknown. Moss and many other WRs do not have that highlight.
TO over the middle and pure WCO was more dangerous than Moss. Moss I viewed as a better deep threat sure, but TO intimidated you anywhere on the field. The way the 2002 wildcard game started, I haven't seen a play like that made very often in the NFL since.
Maybe TO might not have had that 2007 season Moss had with Brady, but a lot harder to take him out of a game I felt. Would have been more effective in the SB against the Giants than Moss.
People forget the past so easily. I saw that TO "A Football Life" and forgot how dominant he was by the eye test. He had a knack of killing it with RAC with a slant reception over the middle, stopping and turning around and taking it the other way. He did that a few times in that highlight video in a way most WRs have yet to do it. Just seeing him in that Cowboy jersey made Dez Bryant look like Michael Crabtree by comparison.
Julio, Dez, Megatron are all great....Fitz too. Rewatch TO '98-'08 and report back what you see.
I honestly think the only thing the new jack WRs bring to the game that the old school WRs didn't was the emphasis on boundary receiving techniques (i.e. toe dragging). They say Cris Carter invented that ability at an elite level and maybe was the GOAT in that respect.....but it seems like most of the new cats have done it at such a high level.
I can't even think of one Rice toe drag reception. And all of his peers too.
Toe dragging and the back shoulder throw are very much a part of the modern game while catching a pass over the middle and RAC have passed.
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Who, when TO wasn't around, consistently produced more with less.
I don't know, Garcia, Romo and McNabb all had their career highs in TD passes in years they played with TO.
Garcia didn't put up great numbers after he separated from TO and neither did McNabb (they both did continue to win, however).
Ah, now I see that my post could have been clearer.
Obviously, all these QBs looked the best opposite TO, one of the greatest WRs ever.
What I actually meant was that Garcia, McNabb and Romo were all fine QBs because in general they seemed to be able to wring more production out of their offenses with sub-TO talent. That is to say that after TO left, they still vastly upgraded their respective teams.
But I agree that their fantasy value peaked when throwing to TO.
2) Jerry Rice did have the luxury of playing with Joe Montana and Steve Young for his entire career. Two of the best quarterbacks of all time. I think you could even argue no receiver has ever had better quarter-back play over the full course of his career. Randy Moss only got to play with a GOAT when he went to the Pats, and when he did he broke the record for most Rec TDs in a season at the age of 30.
Harrison is close. Basically played his entire career with Peyton.
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In comment 13521137 annexOPR said:
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was pretty much flawless as a player. The deep threat Moss was, built like a TE, and an excellent route runner that could line up anywhere.
1300+ and 12 TDs on a winless team. Freak o' nature.
I don't think anyone in history was exactly the deep threat that Moss was, especially in his prime. Literally he would be triple-covered the QB could just throw it in his general vicinity 50 yards downfield and he would make the play. It was insane.
So a lot like these?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8tCdCWB1LM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTPiMEU1YLY
6'5, 240 pound freak with 4.3 speed and rankings in the 90+ percentile all time in terms of heigh, weight, speed, vertical jump, and broad jump. 96+ percentile in 4 of those categories.
You also can't compare career stats ... he only played 9 seasons. Here's his per season average:
~1300 yards, 9 TDs - on generally garbage teams with little help on offense (i.e. double coverage all day)
Calvin johnson is the most physically talented WR to ever play.
Compared to Julio Jones: CJ is bigger, faster 40, with a higher vert/broad jump. I don't think enough people realize how special Johnson truly was.
I think people realize how physically gifted and special Johnson truly was...but thats not really what the OP was about. You're moving off-topic to prove your point.
His biggest negative is the quality of QBs he had throwing him the ball for the vast majority of his career.
The fact that there are legitimate arguments that Rice isn't the greatest WR of all time (unless you factor longevity as a prime / overriding factor) says Rice is NOT the overall GOAT.
LT caused a fundamental change in how the game was played. Rice did not.
I never remember being "scared" of playing Jerry Rice; the whole Walsh, Montana, Craig, Lott, Rice 49ers - yes.
Owens took over the 2002 playoff game; Rice didn't do that against the Giants. Rice should be rated higher than Owens, but it is a fair question to ask.
1. Rice
2. Largent
3. Moss
4. Owens
5. Hutson
I think alot of the WR in the last 20 years were overrated as the game changed. Moss and Owens were just absolute beasts that would have dominated any era. Megatron would be a top 10 candidate.
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In comment 13521145 Knee of Theismann said:
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In comment 13521137 annexOPR said:
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was pretty much flawless as a player. The deep threat Moss was, built like a TE, and an excellent route runner that could line up anywhere.
1300+ and 12 TDs on a winless team. Freak o' nature.
I don't think anyone in history was exactly the deep threat that Moss was, especially in his prime. Literally he would be triple-covered the QB could just throw it in his general vicinity 50 yards downfield and he would make the play. It was insane.
So a lot like these?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8tCdCWB1LM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTPiMEU1YLY
6'5, 240 pound freak with 4.3 speed and rankings in the 90+ percentile all time in terms of heigh, weight, speed, vertical jump, and broad jump. 96+ percentile in 4 of those categories.
You also can't compare career stats ... he only played 9 seasons. Here's his per season average:
~1300 yards, 9 TDs - on generally garbage teams with little help on offense (i.e. double coverage all day)
Calvin johnson is the most physically talented WR to ever play.
Compared to Julio Jones: CJ is bigger, faster 40, with a higher vert/broad jump. I don't think enough people realize how special Johnson truly was.
I think people realize how physically gifted and special Johnson truly was...but thats not really what the OP was about. You're moving off-topic to prove your point.
My point is I think he's the best WR ever. He chose to retire early, so I'm judging him on how he played when he actually did - not simply comparing career numbers that can be inflated by simply staying around longer
Then I see Julio mentioned, and I simply point out that Johnson was essentially a bigger, slightly more athletic version of him. There's also videos of him doing things that made "Moss so special" - another receiver Johnson was actually bigger than.
Blah blah blah, Calvin Johnson is the best WR talent to ever play the game
I'll take Calvin over TO. Not meant to be a slam on TO BTW. More pointing out people using career stats. And the Lions even w him were pretty mediocre at best. Very rarely a running game. Context needs to be considered.
Rice's mental game, from training to preparation to route running and the rest, was among the greatest of any player, at any position.
Joe Montana was never over rated.
To me, Megatron is in the conversation. Had he kept playing, he'd have put up those big numbers that would measure up with all the other greats.
I think he's 3rd after Rice and Moss, T.O. is 4th, and Fitz is 5th. But Julio, Brown, and OBJ could all be in that top 5 when all is said and done. OBJ has a chance to be the best ever.
Inconsistent drops at critical moments who blew up locker rooms wherever he went. How can you separate that and judge him exclusively from that? It was integral to what he was..
Teams let him go for nothing in return...That matters..that reflects on his value. They released the man just to get rid of him.
He virtually had no value and his preening and bigmouth disruptiveness is integral to his ability.
What I'm hearing is "if you separated TO from his disruptiveness you have a great player", as far as I'm concerned then Greg Harvey was a great player - if you separated his drug use and abusive pattern from the whole.
You're picking and it's Fitzgerald or TO.....you have to be a maniac to pick TO.
TO or Plax...I take Plax, so how can TO be among the greatest?. Matter of fact, the choice is not only easy it's indisputable.
In my judgement the man is not in the conversation. Not top ten, not top 50...Don't want him...my team is going to get worse if I add him.
Inconsistent drops at critical moments who blew up locker rooms wherever he went. How can you separate that and judge him exclusively from that? It was integral to what he was..
Teams let him go for nothing in return...That matters..that reflects on his value. They released the man just to get rid of him.
He virtually had no value and his preening and bigmouth disruptiveness is integral to his ability.
What I'm hearing is "if you separated TO from his disruptiveness you have a great player", as far as I'm concerned then Greg Harvey was a great player - if you separated his drug use and abusive pattern from the whole.
You're picking and it's Fitzgerald or TO.....you have to be a maniac to pick TO.
TO or Plax...I take Plax, so how can TO be among the greatest?. Matter of fact, the choice is not only easy it's indisputable. Not top ten, not top 50...Don't want him...my team is going to get worse if I add him. Therefore he is not a great player.
The guy was a locker room cancer and a distraction, but what he did on the field was excellent.
People are saying that Rice had the "best hands ever" on this thread and that TO didn't. Yet, there is little evidence to show that TO had issues with drops or that Rice didn't. They didn't even track drops when Rice played.
What I remember DBs saying is that you could cover him because you knew where he was going but that you could not make a single mistake. You could keep that up for 2 or 3 quarters but doing it perfectly all game was a mountain to climb and he only needed a step.
I think if stats were available I remember reading that his catches and yards and TD per quarter always showed he got better as the game wore on.
My impression is that the physical freaks like Moss and CJ won because they were physically beyond other folks skills. Rice won on iron will and discipline.
So for a game...Moss and TO and Megatron. For a season Moss. But if you want to draft a WR to give you 18 to 20 years of 1000 yards and vital TD when it mattered...a franchise WR if you will; then there is no comparison. Unlike the others Rice made 18 to 20 years of QB better
Just watch these 3 short clips of Calvin Johnson and tell me he isn't the most talented WR to ever play the sport. Physicality, speed, superhuman leaping ability*
[slot, stiff arm] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SM-pCIAg01w
[96 yard effortless TD] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQv3eVg4cIg
[triple coverage] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8tCdCWB1LM
*even better than Moss' ... on a taller frame +30 pounds of muscle
I'm done. Happy Friday!
You can take Johnson all day if you want. He's certainly in the discussion. And there's no clear cut choice for #1...though you seem determined to make it so.
I love guys like this...no other opinion counts...there's no "it seems to me" or "I think", this chump deals in absolutes.....I know what it is, everybody else lacks objectivity and is a sham".
Well guess what Mr. Omniscious?, I disagree. Answer one question, you're building a roster, your choice is Plaxico or TO. Not close, you're going to take Plax - that is, if winning matters.
It's not just talent, though I suggest the talent is closer than people think..It's about a host of things.
TO dropped more balls than I've ever seen from a top receiver, and a dropped ball is an emotional as well as a drive killer.
You think the clubhouses he destroyed, the teams he set back don't count.... I do.
If Shockey and Tiki denigrated Eli, imagine what TO would have done. Just another reason why your pick logicaly would have to be Plax over TO. Or Fitz over TO or probably Toomer over TO....we couldn't have won with TO and I suppose the question is...why that doesn't matter to you. Why isn't that part of the equation?
Look, if you will, at that superb Dallas team we beat in 2007. They were loaded, three offensive lineman were all pros, Barbara for a RB, Witten when he was Witten, a superb Romo and a defense that was loaded with Ware the all pro nose guard and sprinkled wiht superb players.
The match ups favored them too, the big Adams one of the few players who could make Osi disappear.
TO could have been the straw...and put them over the top... He just, in my opinion, didn't make them better...Not like a HOF'er should.
Bottom line,,, I'm sorry the poster can't see the other side and sorrier that when he sees knowledgeable and caring people who sit on the HOF committee go against TO, that his only recouse is to label them stupid and a sham...But of course, because they disagree, because they consider the damange he did to teams he played on...they have no integrity, zero objectivity and it's a wonder that our poster isn't getting a gun to elminate them.
You're going to take the guy who had a poor work ethic, missed meetings, half-assed practices and ended up sabotaging a possible repeat Super Bowl because he has a ring?
Hate Owens as a Cancer, but he had a great work ethic and never took a team that was on its way to a Championship and derailed it by being a selfish dumbass, and that's saying a lot knowing all the things TO did do.
T.O. was better..
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Answer one question, you're building a roster, your choice is Plaxico or TO. Not close, you're going to take Plax - that is, if winning matters.
You're going to take the guy who had a poor work ethic, missed meetings, half-assed practices and ended up sabotaging a possible repeat Super Bowl because he has a ring?
Hate Owens as a Cancer, but he had a great work ethic and never took a team that was on its way to a Championship and derailed it by being a selfish dumbass, and that's saying a lot knowing all the things TO did do.
If memory serves, TO was every bit as important to the Eagles getting to the Super Bowl as Plax was for the Giants. And TO never put a bullet in his leg.
You can take Johnson all day if you want. He's certainly in the discussion. And there's no clear cut choice for #1...though you seem determined to make it so.
... feel free to post something that suggests Calvin Johnson isn't the most physically gifted WR to every play. Randy Moss has a faster 40 - Johnson has everything else. With 4.3 speed and a larger frame.
As a receiver, he was tremendous but - yeah - being let go for nothing - that would take him out of the running as GOAT for me at least.
San Fran at Green Bay: the last gasp of the Walsh/Policy 49ers... (Walsh had been long gone by this game, but what was left of the core of the team had been built by him)
Rice had missed almost the entire previous season with a torn ACL. He came back in 1998 better than anyone could have expected, but it was obvious that he was on the downside of his career. Young was a concussion away from being in the broadcast booth. TO was the heir apparent to Rice. After a less than stellar rookie season, the 3rd round pick showed he could be a #1 receiver when Rice went down in '97. In '98 even with Rice opposite him, he had his first 1000yd receiving year.
They were up against the new powerhouse of the NFC, the Green Bay Packers who were looking to avenge their surprising Super Bowl upset the previous year and who had beaten the 49ers 5 games in a row (The Pack for a time were to the 9ers what the Cowboys had been to the Pack.)
Anyway, TO had several key drops in the first 3 quarters of that game which of course had the announcers all over his case- no, he's not Rice. Rice plays big in big games, this kid is coming up small.
Maybe it was because a few plays prior, instant replay showed that Rice clearly fumbled the ball away on a play that the refs ruled him down by contact (no challenges or replay officials back then), or maybe it was because the commentators had continually talked about TO choking, I don't know- but for some reason people remember the drops from that game much more than they remember the winning TD that TO held onto while being sandwiched between two defenders. He's been unfairly labeled as a guy with questionable hands since. Seems anytime he would have a drop from that game forward, the announcers would bring up either the myth of his poor hands or that game specifically as proof of his poor hands.
Anyway- I'd put Moss and Harrison above him on the all time greats list. He's top 10, definitely. His behavior keeps him from being 1A or 2 or 3.
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And have been made by plenty. What makes the fact that Calvin Johnson is doing it so much better? That he's big?
You can take Johnson all day if you want. He's certainly in the discussion. And there's no clear cut choice for #1...though you seem determined to make it so.
... feel free to post something that suggests Calvin Johnson isn't the most physically gifted WR to every play. Randy Moss has a faster 40 - Johnson has everything else. With 4.3 speed and a larger frame.
The point of the thread isn't who's the most physically gifted, so why would I waste time posting about it?
Feel free to start a thread on who the most physically gifted WR in NFL history is if you want. And be sure to analyze every receiver that ever played the game since being physically gifted does not always translate into success. Have fun.
Luckman, the Bears and coach Halas adopted Clark Shaugnessy's theories of The T formationand won the NFL championship game 73-0. Football changed immediately.
Landry brought in track speed in the person of Bob Hayes and the game was immediately and dramatically changed again.
The point of this thread (as I see it) is that there's more than just talent...TO is justifiably penalised in that regard and Hayes should be rewarded.
the fact that he is not in the hall is the miscarriage, and not TO's exclusion.
So, down to Rice vs Megatron for me ... per game averages [
Rice: 5 receptions, 76 yards, .7 TD
Tron: 5 receptions, 86 yards, .6 TD
you're starting a team, both in prime ... I'll take the guy with 3 inches, 40 pounds, and better athleticism - who produced as well, if not better, without hall of fame QBs on some of the worst teams in NFL history.
Calvin Johnson is the best WR to ever play this sport.
- ( New Window )
So, down to Rice vs Megatron for me ... per game averages [
Rice: 5 receptions, 76 yards, .7 TD
Tron: 5 receptions, 86 yards, .6 TD
you're starting a team, both in prime ... I'll take the guy with 3 inches, 40 pounds, and better athleticism - who produced as well, if not better, without hall of fame QBs on some of the worst teams in NFL history.
Calvin Johnson is the best WR to ever play this sport.
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Your stats lack context. You need to weigh them with number of passing plays per game average for the teams they played on during their careers. They played in two entirely different eras.
I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong- Magatron is in the comversation...although longevity does play a part and hurts him, IMO.
The pattern is repeating itself. Wearing the HOF jacket is inflamatory and wrong in every sense of the word. The public outcry inappropriate but he's going to look at this situation from eyes that are programmed prisms, "I am the victim".
You do realize he is definitely going to be wearing the jacket, just not as a first ballot HOF'er, right?
This is just a situation where the voters are "punishing" a guy who really deserves to be there immediately. TO will be in next year, just as Strahan was in on a second ballot.
In the 1986 season, Jerry Rice inexplicably fumbled away a sure fire touchdown at the start of the divisional playoff vs the Giants... As I recall, he wasn't even touched and there was nothing between him and the end zone... SF never recovered...
Jerry Rice was held to one reception in two massive games against the Giants in the 1990 season...
Jerry Rice was a great player, but he was hardly what I would consider a "clutch" athlete... I recall his best big game performance as SB XXIV, a game that was never in doubt against a team that didn't belong on the field with the 49ers...
In the 1986 season, Jerry Rice inexplicably fumbled away a sure fire touchdown at the start of the divisional playoff vs the Giants... As I recall, he wasn't even touched and there was nothing between him and the end zone... SF never recovered...
Jerry Rice was held to one reception in two massive games against the Giants in the 1990 season...
Jerry Rice was a great player, but he was hardly what I would consider a "clutch" athlete... I recall his best big game performance as SB XXIV, a game that was never in doubt against a team that didn't belong on the field with the 49ers...
All true.
I will say though that for the most part, it was only the Giants that seemed to be able to make him disappear in big games. Much like they were able to do with Jim Brown (thanks to #70) compared to the rest of the league. It doesn't make Jim Brown less of a player. Hell, our own LT was almost invisible when the Giants played the Rams in the late 80's.
Although we like to believe these "all time greats" were some sort of football gods, every single one of them had bad games or relatively bad games against certain opponents.
Comments like some of the ones above about Calvin Johnson being able to catch passes while being defended by 5 guys are worthless...sure amazing plays happen now and then- and more often for the great players- but so do horrible plays and games....even for the great players.
I do wonder how all of the folks going on about the undeniable physical skills of Johnson reconcile his relatively low TD receptions...considering he had unbelievable spend and agility with the frame of a TE.
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I believe he had double digit drops in 1985 and was booed several times by SF fans for big drops and fumbles in critical situations...
In the 1986 season, Jerry Rice inexplicably fumbled away a sure fire touchdown at the start of the divisional playoff vs the Giants... As I recall, he wasn't even touched and there was nothing between him and the end zone... SF never recovered...
Jerry Rice was held to one reception in two massive games against the Giants in the 1990 season...
Jerry Rice was a great player, but he was hardly what I would consider a "clutch" athlete... I recall his best big game performance as SB XXIV, a game that was never in doubt against a team that didn't belong on the field with the 49ers...
All true.
I will say though that for the most part, it was only the Giants that seemed to be able to make him disappear in big games. Much like they were able to do with Jim Brown (thanks to #70) compared to the rest of the league. It doesn't make Jim Brown less of a player. Hell, our own LT was almost invisible when the Giants played the Rams in the late 80's.
Although we like to believe these "all time greats" were some sort of football gods, every single one of them had bad games or relatively bad games against certain opponents.
Comments like some of the ones above about Calvin Johnson being able to catch passes while being defended by 5 guys are worthless...sure amazing plays happen now and then- and more often for the great players- but so do horrible plays and games....even for the great players.
I do wonder how all of the folks going on about the undeniable physical skills of Johnson reconcile his relatively low TD receptions...considering he had unbelievable spend and agility with the frame of a TE.
his TDs were on par per game with jerry rice ... also tough to score TDs when most of your teams/QBs have been horrendous
Look at great players on abysmal teams. Even bad teams score - and those great players get them.
You can make an argument that playing with a mediocre QB, but being the only realistic TD target is going to result in more TD's than being on a team with stars and a QB who can thread the ball to anyone. Sort of the Bills with OJ Simpson vs. the Packers with above average WR's and Rodgers spreading the ball around.
Look at great players on abysmal teams. Even bad teams score - and those great players get them.
You can make an argument that playing with a mediocre QB, but being the only realistic TD target is going to result in more TD's than being on a team with stars and a QB who can thread the ball to anyone. Sort of the Bills with OJ Simpson vs. the Packers with above average WR's and Rodgers spreading the ball around.
he averaged 9 TDs a season ... and produced more yards per game than jerry rice ... but yeah he should've done more with guys like Dan Orlovsky and defenses knowing he was getting the ball
Averaging more YPG than Rice isn't that difficult when Montana and Young had Taylor, Craig, their feet and several other contributors.
Sort of like the OBJ effect. Even last year when the Giants offense wasn't great, they put some TD's up - and Beckham got quite a few of them, even though people know he's getting the ball.
By the way - the NFL is filled with guys you know are going to get the ball. But it still is damn hard to stop - not even just from a talent standpoint, but because excessive double-teams on the outside WR are rare, because of the exposure it leaves for the rest of the defense. Let's not make it sound like defenses put 3 men on Johnson while Rice was going against a NT.
Averaging more YPG than Rice isn't that difficult when Montana and Young had Taylor, Craig, their feet and several other contributors.
Sort of like the OBJ effect. Even last year when the Giants offense wasn't great, they put some TD's up - and Beckham got quite a few of them, even though people know he's getting the ball.
By the way - the NFL is filled with guys you know are going to get the ball. But it still is damn hard to stop - not even just from a talent standpoint, but because excessive double-teams on the outside WR are rare, because of the exposure it leaves for the rest of the defense. Let's not make it sound like defenses put 3 men on Johnson while Rice was going against a NT.
...
I already posted 2 TDs Calvin johnson put up vs triple coverage, so ... theres this:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1701347-breaking-down-calvin-johnsons-2012-season
some games there were 0 snaps he saw man coverage at the snap ...
theres also times from actually watching them play where you can see for yourself just how much attention defenses gave him in the redzone ...
not sure why I'm bothering, but still waiting for an actual legit argument against Calvin johnson being the best WR ever. he chose to retire early? ok ... anything else?
historically freakish athleticism, elite per game production, ... videos, stats, advanced metrics ...
here's 1 of those times - ( New Window )
His biggest negative is the quality of QBs he had throwing him the ball for the vast majority of his career.
The fact that there are legitimate arguments that Rice isn't the greatest WR of all time (unless you factor longevity as a prime / overriding factor) says Rice is NOT the overall GOAT.
LT caused a fundamental change in how the game was played. Rice did not.
I never remember being "scared" of playing Jerry Rice; the whole Walsh, Montana, Craig, Lott, Rice 49ers - yes.
Owens took over the 2002 playoff game; Rice didn't do that against the Giants. Rice should be rated higher than Owens, but it is a fair question to ask.
Well Rice did have two huge plays against the Giants....one was fumbled away, the other was a game winner at the Meadowlands. The latter is the type of play that a Randy Moss nor TO have in their resume, and notably Brady or Peyton as well....
Don't think any individual WR killed those Belichick coordinated LT defenses back then. And don't forget John Taylor scored all the 49er TDs against the Giants in '90....Rice was clearly schemed for.
Thoughts:
Rice - As some have alluded to, no weaknesses. None. Played the game at a very high level for a super long time. His stats at 40+ were comparable to Michael Crabtree in his prime. And even if they were a bit lower....he's still 40+!!
And don't forget you had Rich Gannon QBing the latter Rice years and whomever was QB for Seattle back then...Hasselbeck? Good QBs, but not HoF.
I don't inject too much homer bias in calling Rice the GOAT WR even if I have the blessing from all the fanbases to do so. What I will say is that Rice maximized his playing career more than anyone in the NFL since and possibly ever will.
All that talent was translated year after year after year without fail. Only injuries could stop him. 22 TDs in 12 games in 1987, while it took Randy a full 16 games to hit that number and break it (similar to OJ and his 2003 yard season). Then in 1995 with no RIcky Watters and the running game long gone he goes on to catch for over 1800 yards...only broken by Megatron?? Think about that.
And of course will there ever be a 40+ year old to notch a receiving TD in a Super Bowl (against an elite defense no less)? Doubtful.
I will say that Rice changed the game a bit. To say that LT was the only one is homerish. Rice invented RAC. He had RAC abilities at a 4.7 40 that you need an Odell Beckham level speed to reproduce in the modern NFL. I think Fitzgerald is the only WR with Rice's slowish measurables to produce at that level.
As far as peers, it's been said by Niner brass that John Taylor could do everything Rice could do, and you watch the tape and often saw the same player. And outside of a few ridiculous single game performances that were every bit as good as Rice, he didn't come close to having Rice's career. I say that as JT was my favorite player ever.
Rice had a chip on his shoulder from rookie season to the very, very end. You could list a theoretical 15 WRs that could have played in SF with Montana and Young from '85 - '98 that should have been able to do the same, and I bet none of them would have been able to do it.
TO - A bit underrated I think. In the Moss vs. TO debate, I might be biased as I identify TO as a Niner, but man he was certifiably great if his career was just with SF, let alone all of the other teams he played for. He produced at a high level for Philly, Dallas, and wasn't chopped liver with Buffalo or Cincy either. He basically Kapped his career....yeah, I said it....no reason he couldn't have played at least 2011, 2012 probably....
His catch to beat the Packers in 1998 playoff game, iconic. Great throw by Young and maybe the Packers screwed up the coverage but that was a catch made in traffic you can't expect many WRs in the history of the game to make at that moment. And he did it in his 3rd season while still an unknown. Moss and many other WRs do not have that highlight.
TO over the middle and pure WCO was more dangerous than Moss. Moss I viewed as a better deep threat sure, but TO intimidated you anywhere on the field. The way the 2002 wildcard game started, I haven't seen a play like that made very often in the NFL since.
Maybe TO might not have had that 2007 season Moss had with Brady, but a lot harder to take him out of a game I felt. Would have been more effective in the SB against the Giants than Moss.
People forget the past so easily. I saw that TO "A Football Life" and forgot how dominant he was by the eye test. He had a knack of killing it with RAC with a slant reception over the middle, stopping and turning around and taking it the other way. He did that a few times in that highlight video in a way most WRs have yet to do it. Just seeing him in that Cowboy jersey made Dez Bryant look like Michael Crabtree by comparison.
Julio, Dez, Megatron are all great....Fitz too. Rewatch TO '98-'08 and report back what you see.
I honestly think the only thing the new jack WRs bring to the game that the old school WRs didn't was the emphasis on boundary receiving techniques (i.e. toe dragging). They say Cris Carter invented that ability at an elite level and maybe was the GOAT in that respect.....but it seems like most of the new cats have done it at such a high level.
I can't even think of one Rice toe drag reception. And all of his peers too.
Toe dragging and the back shoulder throw are very much a part of the modern game while catching a pass over the middle and RAC have passed.