He was on Skip Bayless' show yesterday and basically said that Rice played with 2 Hall of Fame QBs, while he did more with less. Mentions that he could had Rice's numbers if he played with Young and Montana. Thoughts?
Massive ego, terrible team player and only cared about himself. He could never be like Rice because he always sabatoged his situation and could never be on a team long enough. I think if you look at talent, he's definitely in the conversation.
But while he didn't play with HoF quarterbacks, he didn't play with bad quarterbacks, either. Garcia, McNabb, and Romo weren't Young and Montana, but they weren't chopped liver.
I've always felt that Jerry Rice was the most overrated player of all time ...in any sport. Now that's not to say he wasn't great, but when they call him the greatest football player of all time....that's the overrated part.
Consider:
That crew had won a superbowl before J.R. and A guy named Clark had shined in that system and Rice's positon - and Clark was a man of limited talent.
Arguably that was the greatest team of all time before Rice joined them and the only team I'd compare to Bradshaw's Steelers.
They were not only about great talent at every position they were playing with a better system thanks to the genius of the Head coach.
I believe, and have always believed, that both Rice and Montana are superb players on another team and another system or in another time - but not immortals.
So I agree with TO on his first premise. But he's not the man to be talking and when he says "if I'd playeed with those QB's"; in fact, it's more likely that he would have blown up the whole system, caused dissension in the locker room, called Montana out for not having a great arm, and Walsh for trying to implement an innovative system - a system that, I suspect, TO would have rejected.
Guys like Randy Moss, Megatron, and several others can make that argument, time for TO to take off the Hall of Fame jacket that he disgustedly and inappropriately parades around in and shut the hell up.
is disrespectful. Rice's greatness were not only in his numbers, but his consistency and longevity. Rice in his prime was the only receiver I could think of that had no glaring weakness. The guy was a great route runner, had great hands, was a beast after the catch, and was great in the Red Zone. He could beat you short, intermediate, or deep.
Owens was a great receiver, but his hands were inconsistent.
in my opinion the best WR to ever play, hands down.
if you were to create a prototype WR in a lab - it'd look a lot like him. What he did on garbage teams and generally poor QB play - with no help on offense - was incredible. TRON - ( New Window )
Megatron for all his greatness only scored 83 TDs in 10 seasons. He played with Stafford for 7 of the those seasons, so it wasn't all on the QBs.
What's so great about Stafford -- he has achieved anything -- in fact he's very much in the same category production wise of McNabb, Garcia and the rest of TO's QBs
to find stats on dropped passes pre-2000, but Rice wasn't always known as having minimal drops. I'd guess that over their careers, there wasn't much difference. Owens and Rice didn't have much differential in catch % (catches vs. targets), but again - target stats pre 90's are hard to come by. Rice as a Rookie Bust?? - ( New Window )
He was one of the all-time divas for sure, but he put up some elite numbers.
Still always wondered why he wasn't more a focus in that 2007 divisional playoff game against Giants. Did Webster really shut him down or was Romo not willing to force it to him?
My recollection is that Owens could be taken out of his game.
Massive ego, terrible team player and only cared about himself. He could never be like Rice because he always sabatoged his situation and could never be on a team long enough. I think if you look at talent, he's definitely in the conversation.
I would agree. In fact I would even say Moss was the best receiver of all time IMO, but that might have to do with the generation I grew up in. T.O. was awesome, but I think Rice, Moss, and CJ were all a little better.
was pretty much flawless as a player. The deep threat Moss was, built like a TE, and an excellent route runner that could line up anywhere.
1300+ and 12 TDs on a winless team. Freak o' nature.
I don't think anyone in history was exactly the deep threat that Moss was, especially in his prime. Literally he would be triple-covered the QB could just throw it in his general vicinity 50 yards downfield and he would make the play. It was insane.
Calvin Johnson only amassed 11000+ yards and 83 TD's.
Great numbers to be sure, but they just don't hold up against the top players at this position. He's 29th on the all time receiving list. Moss and Owens have almost twice as many touchdowns as he does.
We can play the what if game all day, but then we'd have to do it for everyone.
For me its Jerry Rice and Randy Moss. I'd take T.O third.
was pretty much flawless as a player. The deep threat Moss was, built like a TE, and an excellent route runner that could line up anywhere.
1300+ and 12 TDs on a winless team. Freak o' nature.
I don't think anyone in history was exactly the deep threat that Moss was, especially in his prime. Literally he would be triple-covered the QB could just throw it in his general vicinity 50 yards downfield and he would make the play. It was insane.
So a lot like these?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8tCdCWB1LM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTPiMEU1YLY
6'5, 240 pound freak with 4.3 speed and rankings in the 90+ percentile all time in terms of heigh, weight, speed, vertical jump, and broad jump. 96+ percentile in 4 of those categories.
You also can't compare career stats ... he only played 9 seasons. Here's his per season average:
~1300 yards, 9 TDs - on generally garbage teams with little help on offense (i.e. double coverage all day)
Calvin johnson is the most physically talented WR to ever play.
Compared to Julio Jones: CJ is bigger, faster 40, with a higher vert/broad jump. I don't think enough people realize how special Johnson truly was.
Most physically dominant WR, but didn't have the longevity. Only 135 Games for Megatron while Moss, Owens, Rice are well over 200. To me it's Rice, Moss, Owens for now. When all is said and done, I think Brown, Julio, and Beckham could be in that conversation. They have the talent, but we'll see if they can stay healthy.
Notably, Rice has 41 TDs more than any other WR in history. That's more than Julio has in his 6 year career. Also, after Moss and Owens, there's another 23 TDs separating them from Cris Carter and Harrison (4th/5th all time in receiving TDs) and then another 24 TD gap before you hit Fitzgerald (6th all time) at 104 TDs. In other words, the TD totals of those 3, and Rice in particular, are absolutely ridiculous.
Is a first ballot hall of fame player, no ifs ands or buts, he is not in because of spite work, which tells me that there is zero object ability and integrity in the voters, and the hall of fame for football is a complete and total sham.
1) People saying CJ is the best ever just based on his size/speed combination? Yes, best size/speed combination in history, but there is a lot more to being a receiver than just physical gifts. Also this is not to say CJ wasn't a great route runner or didn't have great hands, just saying physical gifts are not the noly thing I would base my choice on.
2) Jerry Rice did have the luxury of playing with Joe Montana and Steve Young for his entire career. Two of the best quarterbacks of all time. I think you could even argue no receiver has ever had better quarter-back play over the full course of his career. Randy Moss only got to play with a GOAT when he went to the Pats, and when he did he broke the record for most Rec TDs in a season at the age of 30.
RE: RE: TO was fortunate to play with excellent QBs
Who, when TO wasn't around, consistently produced more with less.
I don't know, Garcia, Romo and McNabb all had their career highs in TD passes in years they played with TO.
Garcia didn't put up great numbers after he separated from TO and neither did McNabb (they both did continue to win, however).
Ah, now I see that my post could have been clearer.
Obviously, all these QBs looked the best opposite TO, one of the greatest WRs ever.
What I actually meant was that Garcia, McNabb and Romo were all fine QBs because in general they seemed to be able to wring more production out of their offenses with sub-TO talent. That is to say that after TO left, they still vastly upgraded their respective teams.
But I agree that their fantasy value peaked when throwing to TO.
1) People saying CJ is the best ever just based on his size/speed combination? Yes, best size/speed combination in history, but there is a lot more to being a receiver than just physical gifts. Also this is not to say CJ wasn't a great route runner or didn't have great hands, just saying physical gifts are not the noly thing I would base my choice on.
2) Jerry Rice did have the luxury of playing with Joe Montana and Steve Young for his entire career. Two of the best quarterbacks of all time. I think you could even argue no receiver has ever had better quarter-back play over the full course of his career. Randy Moss only got to play with a GOAT when he went to the Pats, and when he did he broke the record for most Rec TDs in a season at the age of 30.
Harrison is close. Basically played his entire career with Peyton.
was pretty much flawless as a player. The deep threat Moss was, built like a TE, and an excellent route runner that could line up anywhere.
1300+ and 12 TDs on a winless team. Freak o' nature.
I don't think anyone in history was exactly the deep threat that Moss was, especially in his prime. Literally he would be triple-covered the QB could just throw it in his general vicinity 50 yards downfield and he would make the play. It was insane.
So a lot like these?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8tCdCWB1LM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTPiMEU1YLY
6'5, 240 pound freak with 4.3 speed and rankings in the 90+ percentile all time in terms of heigh, weight, speed, vertical jump, and broad jump. 96+ percentile in 4 of those categories.
You also can't compare career stats ... he only played 9 seasons. Here's his per season average:
~1300 yards, 9 TDs - on generally garbage teams with little help on offense (i.e. double coverage all day)
Calvin johnson is the most physically talented WR to ever play.
Compared to Julio Jones: CJ is bigger, faster 40, with a higher vert/broad jump. I don't think enough people realize how special Johnson truly was.
I think people realize how physically gifted and special Johnson truly was...but thats not really what the OP was about. You're moving off-topic to prove your point.
but I sometimes find myself driving down the road on my long commute and I can clearly see him dropping the ball going over the middle and the rest is history
His biggest positive is the length of time he played at a high level (and therefore his amazing career stats)
His biggest negative is the quality of QBs he had throwing him the ball for the vast majority of his career.
The fact that there are legitimate arguments that Rice isn't the greatest WR of all time (unless you factor longevity as a prime / overriding factor) says Rice is NOT the overall GOAT.
LT caused a fundamental change in how the game was played. Rice did not.
I never remember being "scared" of playing Jerry Rice; the whole Walsh, Montana, Craig, Lott, Rice 49ers - yes.
Owens took over the 2002 playoff game; Rice didn't do that against the Giants. Rice should be rated higher than Owens, but it is a fair question to ask.
I think alot of the WR in the last 20 years were overrated as the game changed. Moss and Owens were just absolute beasts that would have dominated any era. Megatron would be a top 10 candidate.
was pretty much flawless as a player. The deep threat Moss was, built like a TE, and an excellent route runner that could line up anywhere.
1300+ and 12 TDs on a winless team. Freak o' nature.
I don't think anyone in history was exactly the deep threat that Moss was, especially in his prime. Literally he would be triple-covered the QB could just throw it in his general vicinity 50 yards downfield and he would make the play. It was insane.
So a lot like these?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8tCdCWB1LM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTPiMEU1YLY
6'5, 240 pound freak with 4.3 speed and rankings in the 90+ percentile all time in terms of heigh, weight, speed, vertical jump, and broad jump. 96+ percentile in 4 of those categories.
You also can't compare career stats ... he only played 9 seasons. Here's his per season average:
~1300 yards, 9 TDs - on generally garbage teams with little help on offense (i.e. double coverage all day)
Calvin johnson is the most physically talented WR to ever play.
Compared to Julio Jones: CJ is bigger, faster 40, with a higher vert/broad jump. I don't think enough people realize how special Johnson truly was.
I think people realize how physically gifted and special Johnson truly was...but thats not really what the OP was about. You're moving off-topic to prove your point.
My point is I think he's the best WR ever. He chose to retire early, so I'm judging him on how he played when he actually did - not simply comparing career numbers that can be inflated by simply staying around longer
Then I see Julio mentioned, and I simply point out that Johnson was essentially a bigger, slightly more athletic version of him. There's also videos of him doing things that made "Moss so special" - another receiver Johnson was actually bigger than.
Blah blah blah, Calvin Johnson is the best WR talent to ever play the game
Jim Brown and Barry Sanders don't have the state Emmot Smith
Wound up with. Anyone taking Emmit over those two?
I'll take Calvin over TO. Not meant to be a slam on TO BTW. More pointing out people using career stats. And the Lions even w him were pretty mediocre at best. Very rarely a running game. Context needs to be considered.
Randy Moss was the most unstoppable receiver I've ever seen
In the twilight of his career, in 1993, he led the Chiefs, who had 1 playoff win in the previous 3 seasons to the AFC Championship game, and probably would've taken that team to the Super Bowl had he not gotten concussed early in the 3rd quarter. They lost 13-6.
Physically he wasn't the most gifted receiver ever, but he was the best because he had the best hands and was one of the greatest route runners ever.
To me, Megatron is in the conversation. Had he kept playing, he'd have put up those big numbers that would measure up with all the other greats.
I think he's 3rd after Rice and Moss, T.O. is 4th, and Fitz is 5th. But Julio, Brown, and OBJ could all be in that top 5 when all is said and done. OBJ has a chance to be the best ever.
Owens was not likable, but he was an excellent WR. His SB eagles performance was awesome - in a losing effort, thankfully.
TO on Undisputed - ( New Window )
Consider:
That crew had won a superbowl before J.R. and A guy named Clark had shined in that system and Rice's positon - and Clark was a man of limited talent.
Arguably that was the greatest team of all time before Rice joined them and the only team I'd compare to Bradshaw's Steelers.
They were not only about great talent at every position they were playing with a better system thanks to the genius of the Head coach.
I believe, and have always believed, that both Rice and Montana are superb players on another team and another system or in another time - but not immortals.
So I agree with TO on his first premise. But he's not the man to be talking and when he says "if I'd playeed with those QB's"; in fact, it's more likely that he would have blown up the whole system, caused dissension in the locker room, called Montana out for not having a great arm, and Walsh for trying to implement an innovative system - a system that, I suspect, TO would have rejected.
Guys like Randy Moss, Megatron, and several others can make that argument, time for TO to take off the Hall of Fame jacket that he disgustedly and inappropriately parades around in and shut the hell up.
Owens was a great receiver, but his hands were inconsistent.
I don't know, Garcia, Romo and McNabb all had their career highs in TD passes in years they played with TO.
Garcia didn't put up great numbers after he separated from TO and neither did McNabb (they both did continue to win, however).
in my opinion the best WR to ever play, hands down.
if you were to create a prototype WR in a lab - it'd look a lot like him. What he did on garbage teams and generally poor QB play - with no help on offense - was incredible.
TRON - ( New Window )
Megatron for all his greatness only scored 83 TDs in 10 seasons. He played with Stafford for 7 of the those seasons, so it wasn't all on the QBs.
Megatron for all his greatness only scored 83 TDs in 10 seasons. He played with Stafford for 7 of the those seasons, so it wasn't all on the QBs.
What's so great about Stafford -- he has achieved anything -- in fact he's very much in the same category production wise of McNabb, Garcia and the rest of TO's QBs
Rice as a Rookie Bust?? - ( New Window )
vs
What Terrell Owens imagines he might have done, if he'd been able to play with different football players.
Owens was a great player, but his bitching and whining cost him time on the field and reduced his production.
In terms of receivers that you feared, Owens is way up there.
He was one of the all-time divas for sure, but he put up some elite numbers.
Still always wondered why he wasn't more a focus in that 2007 divisional playoff game against Giants. Did Webster really shut him down or was Romo not willing to force it to him?
Pretty much how I feel as well.
1300+ and 12 TDs on a winless team. Freak o' nature.
1300+ and 12 TDs on a winless team. Freak o' nature.
I don't think anyone in history was exactly the deep threat that Moss was, especially in his prime. Literally he would be triple-covered the QB could just throw it in his general vicinity 50 yards downfield and he would make the play. It was insane.
Great numbers to be sure, but they just don't hold up against the top players at this position. He's 29th on the all time receiving list. Moss and Owens have almost twice as many touchdowns as he does.
We can play the what if game all day, but then we'd have to do it for everyone.
For me its Jerry Rice and Randy Moss. I'd take T.O third.
Quote:
was pretty much flawless as a player. The deep threat Moss was, built like a TE, and an excellent route runner that could line up anywhere.
1300+ and 12 TDs on a winless team. Freak o' nature.
I don't think anyone in history was exactly the deep threat that Moss was, especially in his prime. Literally he would be triple-covered the QB could just throw it in his general vicinity 50 yards downfield and he would make the play. It was insane.
So a lot like these?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8tCdCWB1LM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTPiMEU1YLY
6'5, 240 pound freak with 4.3 speed and rankings in the 90+ percentile all time in terms of heigh, weight, speed, vertical jump, and broad jump. 96+ percentile in 4 of those categories.
You also can't compare career stats ... he only played 9 seasons. Here's his per season average:
~1300 yards, 9 TDs - on generally garbage teams with little help on offense (i.e. double coverage all day)
Calvin johnson is the most physically talented WR to ever play.
Compared to Julio Jones: CJ is bigger, faster 40, with a higher vert/broad jump. I don't think enough people realize how special Johnson truly was.
Most physically dominant WR, but didn't have the longevity. Only 135 Games for Megatron while Moss, Owens, Rice are well over 200. To me it's Rice, Moss, Owens for now. When all is said and done, I think Brown, Julio, and Beckham could be in that conversation. They have the talent, but we'll see if they can stay healthy.
Fitgerald: 202 G, 1125 rec, 14,389 yds, 104 TDs
Calvin: 135 G, 731 rec, 11,619 yds, 83 TDs
Moss: 218 G, 982 rec, 15,292 yds, 156 TDs
Owens: 219 G, 1078 rec, 15,934 yds, 153 TDs
Rice: 303 G, 1549 rec, 22,895 yds, 197 TDs
Harrison: 190 G, 1102 rec, 14,580 yds, 128 TDs
Carter: 209 G, 1101 rec, 13,899 yds, 130 TDs
For shits and giggles:
Julio: 79 G, 497 rec, 7,610 yds, 40 TDs
Beckham: 43 G, 288 rec, 4,122 yds, 35 TDs
Brown: 101 G, 632 rec, 8,377 yds, 50 TDs
Notably, Rice has 41 TDs more than any other WR in history. That's more than Julio has in his 6 year career. Also, after Moss and Owens, there's another 23 TDs separating them from Cris Carter and Harrison (4th/5th all time in receiving TDs) and then another 24 TD gap before you hit Fitzgerald (6th all time) at 104 TDs. In other words, the TD totals of those 3, and Rice in particular, are absolutely ridiculous.
I disagree with the 2nd half. Moss and Owens have nearly identical stats. I'd give Moss the edge, but there's definitely an argument to be made there.
The rankings probably look something like this:
1. Rice
2A. Moss
2B. Owens
4A. Harrison
4B. Carter
6. Fitzgerald
It's Calvin Johnson. Essentially a TE with 4.3 speed and unfair leaping ability.
I'd put TO top 5 though. Total headcase and the epitome of a me first diva wide receiver, but there is no argument what his talent was.
2) Jerry Rice did have the luxury of playing with Joe Montana and Steve Young for his entire career. Two of the best quarterbacks of all time. I think you could even argue no receiver has ever had better quarter-back play over the full course of his career. Randy Moss only got to play with a GOAT when he went to the Pats, and when he did he broke the record for most Rec TDs in a season at the age of 30.
Quote:
Who, when TO wasn't around, consistently produced more with less.
I don't know, Garcia, Romo and McNabb all had their career highs in TD passes in years they played with TO.
Garcia didn't put up great numbers after he separated from TO and neither did McNabb (they both did continue to win, however).
Ah, now I see that my post could have been clearer.
Obviously, all these QBs looked the best opposite TO, one of the greatest WRs ever.
What I actually meant was that Garcia, McNabb and Romo were all fine QBs because in general they seemed to be able to wring more production out of their offenses with sub-TO talent. That is to say that after TO left, they still vastly upgraded their respective teams.
But I agree that their fantasy value peaked when throwing to TO.
2) Jerry Rice did have the luxury of playing with Joe Montana and Steve Young for his entire career. Two of the best quarterbacks of all time. I think you could even argue no receiver has ever had better quarter-back play over the full course of his career. Randy Moss only got to play with a GOAT when he went to the Pats, and when he did he broke the record for most Rec TDs in a season at the age of 30.
Harrison is close. Basically played his entire career with Peyton.
Quote:
In comment 13521137 annexOPR said:
Quote:
was pretty much flawless as a player. The deep threat Moss was, built like a TE, and an excellent route runner that could line up anywhere.
1300+ and 12 TDs on a winless team. Freak o' nature.
I don't think anyone in history was exactly the deep threat that Moss was, especially in his prime. Literally he would be triple-covered the QB could just throw it in his general vicinity 50 yards downfield and he would make the play. It was insane.
So a lot like these?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8tCdCWB1LM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTPiMEU1YLY
6'5, 240 pound freak with 4.3 speed and rankings in the 90+ percentile all time in terms of heigh, weight, speed, vertical jump, and broad jump. 96+ percentile in 4 of those categories.
You also can't compare career stats ... he only played 9 seasons. Here's his per season average:
~1300 yards, 9 TDs - on generally garbage teams with little help on offense (i.e. double coverage all day)
Calvin johnson is the most physically talented WR to ever play.
Compared to Julio Jones: CJ is bigger, faster 40, with a higher vert/broad jump. I don't think enough people realize how special Johnson truly was.
I think people realize how physically gifted and special Johnson truly was...but thats not really what the OP was about. You're moving off-topic to prove your point.
His biggest negative is the quality of QBs he had throwing him the ball for the vast majority of his career.
The fact that there are legitimate arguments that Rice isn't the greatest WR of all time (unless you factor longevity as a prime / overriding factor) says Rice is NOT the overall GOAT.
LT caused a fundamental change in how the game was played. Rice did not.
I never remember being "scared" of playing Jerry Rice; the whole Walsh, Montana, Craig, Lott, Rice 49ers - yes.
Owens took over the 2002 playoff game; Rice didn't do that against the Giants. Rice should be rated higher than Owens, but it is a fair question to ask.
1. Rice
2. Largent
3. Moss
4. Owens
5. Hutson
I think alot of the WR in the last 20 years were overrated as the game changed. Moss and Owens were just absolute beasts that would have dominated any era. Megatron would be a top 10 candidate.
Quote:
In comment 13521145 Knee of Theismann said:
Quote:
In comment 13521137 annexOPR said:
Quote:
was pretty much flawless as a player. The deep threat Moss was, built like a TE, and an excellent route runner that could line up anywhere.
1300+ and 12 TDs on a winless team. Freak o' nature.
I don't think anyone in history was exactly the deep threat that Moss was, especially in his prime. Literally he would be triple-covered the QB could just throw it in his general vicinity 50 yards downfield and he would make the play. It was insane.
So a lot like these?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8tCdCWB1LM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTPiMEU1YLY
6'5, 240 pound freak with 4.3 speed and rankings in the 90+ percentile all time in terms of heigh, weight, speed, vertical jump, and broad jump. 96+ percentile in 4 of those categories.
You also can't compare career stats ... he only played 9 seasons. Here's his per season average:
~1300 yards, 9 TDs - on generally garbage teams with little help on offense (i.e. double coverage all day)
Calvin johnson is the most physically talented WR to ever play.
Compared to Julio Jones: CJ is bigger, faster 40, with a higher vert/broad jump. I don't think enough people realize how special Johnson truly was.
I think people realize how physically gifted and special Johnson truly was...but thats not really what the OP was about. You're moving off-topic to prove your point.
My point is I think he's the best WR ever. He chose to retire early, so I'm judging him on how he played when he actually did - not simply comparing career numbers that can be inflated by simply staying around longer
Then I see Julio mentioned, and I simply point out that Johnson was essentially a bigger, slightly more athletic version of him. There's also videos of him doing things that made "Moss so special" - another receiver Johnson was actually bigger than.
Blah blah blah, Calvin Johnson is the best WR talent to ever play the game
I'll take Calvin over TO. Not meant to be a slam on TO BTW. More pointing out people using career stats. And the Lions even w him were pretty mediocre at best. Very rarely a running game. Context needs to be considered.
Rice's mental game, from training to preparation to route running and the rest, was among the greatest of any player, at any position.
Joe Montana was never over rated.
To me, Megatron is in the conversation. Had he kept playing, he'd have put up those big numbers that would measure up with all the other greats.
I think he's 3rd after Rice and Moss, T.O. is 4th, and Fitz is 5th. But Julio, Brown, and OBJ could all be in that top 5 when all is said and done. OBJ has a chance to be the best ever.