Shockey, Jimmy Graham, Kellen Winslow, Jr., pre-injury, Jets' Johnny Mitchell, Jason Witten, Gates, tons more, imv
Kellen Winslow??? played two games in his rookie season and none in his second season -- Gates had 24 Receptions and no TDs in his Rookie season, Johnny Mitchell had 16 receptions in his rookie year, Jason Witten was hardly an impact player in his rookie season - so I'll give you Shockey and Graham -- the reality is that the overwhelming majority of star TEs did not do well in year 1 - please give me some real examples -- Shockey was an anomaly and we certainly don't want to see Engram repeat Shockey - who's first year was his best year -- he couldn't live up to that afterwards.
Jordan Raanan Retweeted Mike Clay
This reiterates what I found as well. History not on Evan Engram or any rookie TEs side for this year http://www.espn.com/blog/new-york-giants/post/_/id/51728/giants-top-pick-evan-engram-has-to-buck-trend-to-be-significant-factor-as-rookie …
Jordan Raanan Retweeted The King of Qu- FoHi
Only way to show he's a threat is by making plays and putting up stats. He's not getting instant respect just by running fast down the field
creative on offense as everyone expects they can be.
(I have not seen it yet)
Engram will be successful if McAdoo & Sullivan can use all these weapons in the right way and at the right times.
OBJ, Marshall, Engram, Vereen, and Shepard are a matchup nightmare if used correctly.
Spag's proved if you give him the talent he can use it in the right way and put people in the right places to be successful. (his play calling the 2nd half of the year was off the charts)
there is very little evidence to support the idea that a rookie TE can make an impact in the NFL
They used to say that about WRs and then the 2014 draft class hit (Beckham, Evans, Landry, Cooks, etc).
Giants fans especially should be wary of this statement with Shockey (74/894/2) and even Will Tye (42/464/3).
Other recent players:
- Hunter Henry put up 36/478/8 last season.
- Jordan Reed (a guy many have compared Engram too): 45/499/3 in just 9 games
- Tim Wright 54/571/5
- Gronk 42/546/10
- Dwayne Allen 45/521/3
- Zack Ertz 36/469/4
You don't see any TEs putting up 1000 yard seasons, but then again, since 2000 there have only been 23 times total that TEs have crossed that mark and Gronk/Graham/Gonzalez account for 9 of those. In other words, a TE with a 60+ catch, 800+ yard, 5+ TD season is a pro-bowler so a rookie going for 40+ rec, 500+ yards and 5+ TDs is impactful.
Jordan Raanan Retweeted Mike Clay
This reiterates what I found as well. History not on Evan Engram or any rookie TEs side for this year http://www.espn.com/blog/new-york-giants/post/_/id/51728/giants-top-pick-evan-engram-has-to-buck-trend-to-be-significant-factor-as-rookie …
Link - ( New Window )
The problem with this is that receiving stats are dominated and headlined by WRs (obviously) so when people view any receiving stats, their threshold for what is "impactful" or "good" is based on their view of what the top WRs do. But the #s for the top receiving TEs are well below that and thus, the expectations for what constitutes an impactful year from a rookie TE needs to be adjust accordingly.
From Ranaan's list, I would argue Gresham and Keller had strong rookie seasons (particularly the former who's also a strong run blocker) and Eifert and Olsen were solid. Ebron was awful, especially since his run blocking was poor and Pettigrew was a disappointment as well.
I expect him to make big plays when needed, and to help make defenses respect the entire field.
If the offense is productive, it will be because Marshall and Engram are making it hard for teams to bracket OBJ. Which will help with the running game and passing game.
Shockey, Jimmy Graham, Kellen Winslow, Jr., pre-injury, Jets' Johnny Mitchell, Jason Witten, Gates, tons more, imv
Kellen Winslow??? played two games in his rookie season and none in his second season -- Gates had 24 Receptions and no TDs in his Rookie season, Johnny Mitchell had 16 receptions in his rookie year, Jason Witten was hardly an impact player in his rookie season - so I'll give you Shockey and Graham -- the reality is that the overwhelming majority of star TEs did not do well in year 1 - please give me some real examples -- Shockey was an anomaly and we certainly don't want to see Engram repeat Shockey - who's first year was his best year -- he couldn't live up to that afterwards.
I thought Winslow played more than that, so my bad..Johnny Mitchell? I recall Giants fans lamenting that we took Derek Brown(a bust) over Mitchell, so my recall was based on how well he performed for the NYJ than stats per se..Different eras, but impact-wise(including blocking ability for those eras), Ditka, Mackey, KW! Sr., Jackie Smith, Newsome, Casper. Not sure of Shannon Sharpe's initial impact..There were others, but they wouldn't be listed as TEs today, imo..
Is he going to catch for 1000 yards and 10 TD's not likely..
Will he have an impact in affecting how defenses play against the Giants because they can change their formations and alignments.. yes..
And despite what Ranaan says.. no DC is going to allow a player to run free down the middle of the field.. He IS going to draw some coverage.. especially if he is fast..
So that will have an effect... will it lessen the amount of Cover 2 the Giants see.. very possible..
However effect and IMPACT can be seen differently..
there is very little evidence to support the idea that a rookie TE can make an impact in the NFL
They used to say that about WRs and then the 2014 draft class hit (Beckham, Evans, Landry, Cooks, etc).
Giants fans especially should be wary of this statement with Shockey (74/894/2) and even Will Tye (42/464/3).
Other recent players:
- Hunter Henry put up 36/478/8 last season.
- Jordan Reed (a guy many have compared Engram too): 45/499/3 in just 9 games
- Tim Wright 54/571/5
- Gronk 42/546/10
- Dwayne Allen 45/521/3
- Zack Ertz 36/469/4
You don't see any TEs putting up 1000 yard seasons, but then again, since 2000 there have only been 23 times total that TEs have crossed that mark and Gronk/Graham/Gonzalez account for 9 of those. In other words, a TE with a 60+ catch, 800+ yard, 5+ TD season is a pro-bowler so a rookie going for 40+ rec, 500+ yards and 5+ TDs is impactful.
Some good points. One thing to keep in mind is that Engram is significantly faster than any of those players were or are.
But he does exist. And for that article not to mention him even while establishing the context of first AND second round TEs is a pretty significant omission.
Yes but only if the O-line can sustain their blocks Â
Here are the TEs that have topped 1000 yards receiving in a single season since 2000:
Gronk
Graham
Tony Gonzalez
Gates
Witten
Travis Kelce
Dallas Clark
Kellen Winslow
Delanie Walker
Gary Barnidge
Greg Olsen
That's literally it. 11 TEs in 17 seasons. And 4 of those (Gonzo, Witten, Gates, and Gronk if he stays somewhat healthy) are HOF TEs. If you lower the threshold to >900 yards, you can add:
Brent Celek
Vernon Davis
Jordan Reed
Jordan Cameron
Martellus Bennett
Aaron Hernandez
to the list. So 17 TEs have topped 900 yards in a season in the last 17 years. Those 17 TEs have combined to top 900 yards just 44 times over that period. For comparison, there were 23 WRs to top 1000 yards in 2016 alone. There were 31 WRs with >900 yards last season. So if 1000 yards is the benchmark for "top" WRs, roughly 1 out of 3 starters reached that level (23 out of 64 assuming teams start 2 WRs).
So people need to stop comparing TEs production to the the typical "1000 yard mark" that is used to judge WRs. A more appropriate level for judging "top" TE production (i.e. the level reached by the top 1/3 of TEs) is 650-700 yards receiving based on last season's totals. If the goal for a rookie is to be 75% of that, then a "good" season for Engram would be around 500 yards receiving which is basically what Tye did as a rookie in less than a full season. So yes, I expect Engram to hit that target and will be disappointed if he falls short of 500 yards.
RE: RE: RE: I'm going to play devil's advocate here Â
Some good points. One thing to keep in mind is that Engram is significantly faster than any of those players were or are.
Sure, he's also smaller (height and weight) than many of them and could struggle with jams against LBs particularly when lined up inline.
The biggest advantage for Engram though, is that few, if any, of the recent TEs had a player as dynamic as Beckham lined up outside (to say nothing of BM and SS). Beckham's big play ability alone should get Engram a few easy catches underneath.
RE: Yes but only if the O-line can sustain their blocks Â
If the o-line can't hold blocks long enough, teams will continue to smother OBJ and a pass-catching TE won't be a factor.
Will Tye caught 42 passes for 464 yards in 7 starts (13 games) as a rookie 2 seasons ago with roughly the same OL. You could argue a shitty OL makes a good receiving TE even more vital to an offense since he's an option for quick dump-offs. And unlike Donnell catching it in the flat, Engram actually has the ability to turn up field and pick up some yardage.
he will be covered by a safety or LB especially early on as defences will have to take the trio of OBJ,marshall and shepard with thier CB's and even if they use a CB on him it will be thier 4th man on their depth chart with his size and speed over the middle i expect he lights it up i fully expecting him to score a TD versus dallas week 1
what exactly constitutes impact from a TE -- but you guys are wildly optomistic - especially about expecting impact results in game 1
If Engram doesn't pick up his assignments from the playbook right away he is only going to see very limited reps on the field at the beginning of the season. For him to score in game 1 would be great but it is wildly unrealistic. McAdoo and Co would have to have developed a lot of confidence in him for that to happen.
No matter how good he is going to be eventually - he is still a rookie and will have rookie growing pains.
Listening to his teammates describe his route running as equal to the best on the team. His legit 4.42 playing speed at 6'3 3/8" at 236 lbs with a 36" vertical. His determined work ethic and dedication. I have to believe he will be an impact out the gate. The NFL has no one to compare him to. Vernon Davis though fast does not have the route running, suddenness, body control or leaping ability. No TE in the league brings his acceleration. There is no Safety or LB who can cover him man on man.
With OBJ, Shepard and Marshall the opposing D will be severely challenged. Engram will have at least 10 TDs this season. We are about to witness the most explosive Giant O in franchise history and Engram threat to take the top off the D, will be a huge reason why. Forget the statistics of the past rookies because none have come into the league with his skill set, maturity and dedication to his craft. All predraft reports pointed to him being the cleanest prospect in the draft. Singular focus and dedication leads to greatness.
Worst case is he contributes simply by virtue . . . . Â
what exactly constitutes impact from a TE -- but you guys are wildly optomistic - especially about expecting impact results in game 1
If Engram doesn't pick up his assignments from the playbook right away he is only going to see very limited reps on the field at the beginning of the season. For him to score in game 1 would be great but it is wildly unrealistic. McAdoo and Co would have to have developed a lot of confidence in him for that to happen.
No matter how good he is going to be eventually - he is still a rookie and will have rookie growing pains.
I can't speak for others, but if he and Ellison are both healthy to open the season, I expect Ellison to get ~70% of the TE snaps and Engram 30%. By the end of the season, I think those percentages will be flipped (though I think we'll also see a lot of 2 TE sets with both of them).
As far as Engram's final numbers, my expectations are: 40+ rec, 500+ yds, and 6+ TDs.
The fear of the OL will only be alleviated by witnessing Â
If as I believe, the OL takes the leap in Solari's 2nd season all arguments will be muted. Going into this season the perceived weaknesses was TE, OL. Well thew TE's corps has become a strength, those hoping Tye makes the cut are grasping smoke because right now he is the 5th on the depth chart. With Engram, Ellison and Adams the TE's are formidable, LaCosse if healthy is a bonus. Combined with the depth and talent at WR the possibilities can be devastating.
Engram will likely put up decent numbers for a rookie TE Â
there is very little evidence to support the idea that a rookie TE can make an impact in the NFL
This class of TEs was also regarded as the most talented in a long time -- maybe ever.
And as others have said, he doesn't need to go 60 1k and 10 to be impactful.
True, Engram's deep middle speed will definitely keep safeties honest and help our run game. It would be a beautiful thing to see him go 40 or more yards down the middle versus that young Dallas secondary game 1 so teams have film on his ability and gameplan safeties deep.
Rewatching the games last year I have been impressed with how often Eli threw to Tye. 48 catches on 77 targets. I think it's not unrealistic to think that Engram will have similar targets. I think he could catch a higher percent that Tye as well - maybe 70% give or take, so around 50 catches seems very reasonable to me.
The difference will be in yards, imo. Tye was averaging around 8 ypc. He basically would catch the ball and get tackled right away (4.1 YAC). I'm thinking Engram could average about 12 ypc (about 6 YAC), but I wouldn't be surprised if he averages more. That would put him at around 600 yards.
Also, he has breakaway speed for the position. He has the kind of speed that makes it difficult for db's to catch him if he gets a seam. I think that means he can score TD's from outside the red zone, something most TE cannot do very often. We saw in the 2011 playoffs what a super-fast TE can do in a secondary with Davis getting two TD's. I wouldn't be surprised if Engram gets a few this way to go along with a handful in the red zone.
So my prediction is for 50 catches, 600 yards, and 8 TD's. I know that's optimistic, but it would make him a good, not great TE in this league. He would rank 12th in receptions, 17th in yards, and 1st in TD's.
So the TD's could easily be a little lower, but the yards and catches could also be higher. I think this kind of projection is very possible and may even be on the low side for Engram.
will go in cycles this season.....whoever, offensively, has a big week, teams will concentrate on the following week....this will open it up for one of Eli's other options.....and then he gets the attention the next week.....
If this offense can stay healthy, Mac has to open up the play book, and make this offense unpredictable....
When the bulk of the passes went to Hakeem Nicks and Victor Cruz (and rightly so), Jake Ballard caught 38 passes for 604 yards (15.9 ypc) with 4 TDs. Sure, he was a bigger target than Engram, but he was as slow as molasses. He appeared in 14 games and made 13 starts. I'd call that making a positive impact.
personal stats that some here want to focus on. I would grade it on what improvements the offense has in overall passing stats and rankings along with overall offensive stats.
I expect Marinelli to play over the top of OBJ and Marshall. The seam in that Tampa 2 will be wide open.
Exactly. Dallas doesn't have the defensive personnel to match up with him and therefore Engram should break at least one ball deep. We have multiple playmakers this year and therefore teams will be guessing.
1. Lack of talent in front of him. He'll get PT.
2. It's clear as day he'll get open in the NFL. I have no doubts about his receiving ability. His game will work in the NFL.
Last year, Henry would have put up monster numbers but Gates is there. When Gates was out, Henry was an impact player. Engram won't have that hurdle here.
Kelce was an impact player the first year he played. He had knee surgery as a rookie. When he hit the field he dominated from the start. 70-800 in his first year of NFL ball. I think Engram can hit those numbers. The opportunity is there for him. Hes such a tough cover and they would be fools not to feature him.
He will be a big play guy so I can see some monster games. I can see him being the 2nd best offensive weapon in year 1.
Giants generally have a good track record on 1st rounders contributing in year one.
Apple, Flowers, Odell, Pugh, Amukamara, JPP, Nicks. Those are all Reese first rounders who contributed in year one. That is a good track record over the years indicating they know what they are doing in round 1.
It's up to Engram ultimately. But I trust the staffs judgement.
I LOVE what he brings to the table. Super quick. Explosive cutting ability. He's got better talent than Jordan Reed. And that guy is a beast in the NFL.
If the OL doesn't fall apart this team will compete for the Super Bowl this year. I'm really excited about this team.
I LOVE what he brings to the table. Super quick. Explosive cutting ability. He's got better talent than Jordan Reed. And that guy is a beast in the NFL.
If the OL doesn't fall apart this team will compete for the Super Bowl this year. I'm really excited about this team.
I often wonder if the Giants took Engram because of their experiences facing Jordan Reed. Hard to cover wideouts and the middle of the field deep.
Evan Engram seems polished. I had him at 45-600 but I'm going with 50-650-6 now as this thread has my blood going. LOL.
40-50 catches and 500 yards with a handful of touchdown Â
would be a huge impact if he shows that he can play right out of the gate and doesn't have any Larry Donnell or Will Tye type moments of idiocy. Just being a good player at the position would be an impact. Forget putting a yardage quota on it.
RE: 40-50 catches and 500 yards with a handful of touchdown Â
In comment 13521770 Ten Ton Hammer said:
[quote] would be a huge impact if he shows that he can play right out of the gate and doesn't have any Larry Donnell or Will Tye type moments of idiocy. Just being a good player at the position would be an impact. Forget putting a yardage quota on it. [/quote All Engram needs to do is scare defenses, keep safeties honest, just fly down the middle and open things up for the run game and wideouts.
But my hope is that by the last few games he is deadly and carries us into the playoffs.
personal stats that some here want to focus on. I would grade it on what improvements the offense has in overall passing stats and rankings along with overall offensive stats.
This is an important point. The Engram pick on some level had to be a counter strategy to how defenses neutralized them last year. If the WRs are making impact plays and the offense is scoring more points, I'll consider that a win even if Engram doesn't have the stats.
If Engram is as advertised, this is more about McAdoo than anything Â
It is Engram (not OBJ) lining up as TE or H-b who is the matchup nightmare, particularly if he is a good enough blocker to neutralize smaller players. If a CB covers EE, than you opt into a running play if down and distance allow.
If McAdoo allows it, I could see the Giants offense morphing into an option based offense with the play selected by Eli at the line depending on who is covering EE. It may be a LB, S, or CB. As a defender, each has a physical disability when trying to cover and/or tackle him that can and should be exploited.
I am not belittling OBJ here. I assume he will be covered most of the time by at least a CB with deep S help.
OBJ, Marshall, and Shepard are all established, and all demand more throws (so to speak) than EE. EE needs to come in and be part of the squad, not the leader. If he is catching 700-800 yds of passes that would be great. It would take a lot of heat off of our other guys, who are All-Pro's, and be a solid rookie contribution.
EE however, even more than BM because of his speed is the physical mismatch which may be the key to the play called at the line.
Where the ball ends up is affected but not determined by this. The greatest beneficiary of the conumdrum that Giants pose to other teams is apt to be BM. He is likely to be singled against a player the physical equivalent of Trevin Wade.
what everybody did last year with 2 deep safety look until we do something to bring them out of it. And that's either run more effectively or send an athletic TE into seem.
Not confident how much the run blocking will improve so McAdoo damn well better take this new TE out for a ride early in games....
RE: Yes but only if the O-line can sustain their blocks Â
If the o-line can't hold blocks long enough, teams will continue to smother OBJ and a pass-catching TE won't be a factor.
I think the addition of Brandon Marshall will be a strong factor in allowing OBJ to get open a whole lot more than he did last year and that alone will be enough to improve the running game as well......
it seemed most of the routes he ran were shallow crossing routes. I think even running these routes Engram has a chance to make big plays given his speed.
However, reports out of mini-camp said he was lining up all over, split wide, etc. If they get into a situation where he motions to one side alone and they have to cover him with a safety or LB it's going to be tough. I expect when Eli sees that coverage he's going to pounce on it regularly.
it seemed most of the routes he ran were shallow crossing routes. I think even running these routes Engram has a chance to make big plays given his speed.
However, reports out of mini-camp said he was lining up all over, split wide, etc. If they get into a situation where he motions to one side alone and they have to cover him with a safety or LB it's going to be tough. I expect when Eli sees that coverage he's going to pounce on it regularly.
Agreed. I've been saying all off-season that this year Eli and staff will take a page out of the New England playbook where they just hit the wide-open or most open guy, the mismatch on the field, and move the chains and wear you down.
Engram on a LB is a "throw it to me situation" for sure.
i think we keep looking at stats as the measurement Â
instead of looking at multiple offensive formations and the ability to confuse a defense with alignments.
Truth. The would be the complete opposite of last year. We are going to mix it up much more this year with 2 TE sets; 3 WR sets; possibly 1 TE and 1 FB (S. Smith); etc.
Engram helps us create mis-matches due to his skillset and speed.
how can you possibly game plan to contain Marshall, Shepard, Engram, and Beckham?
If Engram is legit, this passing game is impossible to match up with. Beckham and Engram alone will be nightmares.
And if the OL improves by a good margin, our skill players truly become a nightmare matchup for most any defense. I look forward to the wrinkles that should be added.
hope to get to Eli before the pass is thrown ... I really have no idea how else you game plan for that attack.
quick outs to Shepard, slants to Beckham, back shoulder fades to Marshall, Engram vs a slower LB or smaller DB ...
I can not wait to embarrass Dallas in primetime. they do not have the personnel to exploit the OL, even if it does suck.
Agreed on Dallas with their personnel. They will struggle on defense out of the gates. I see Eli hitting the wide open (uncovered) TE, RB and the open WR, TE, and keep moving the chains just like New England does. If you blitz Eli this year and its picked up he will torch you with these personnel.
From a statistical basis as a individual performer, likely no. Â
That being said, his numbers dont need to be exceptional, they just need to be enough to keep defenses honest. A few catches down the seam threatening slower LBs and safeties impacts the defense. If he just murders a LB and the defense switches packages, can the Giants run the ball more effectively? If the safety has to look at Engram more because he is blowing by coverage, does that take away attention from OBJ and Marshall?
His rookie year, he just needs to be good enough that the defenses will defend him better, having a trickle down effect on everyone else.
hope to get to Eli before the pass is thrown ... I really have no idea how else you game plan for that attack.
quick outs to Shepard, slants to Beckham, back shoulder fades to Marshall, Engram vs a slower LB or smaller DB ...
I can not wait to embarrass Dallas in primetime. they do not have the personnel to exploit the OL, even if it does suck.
Agreed on Dallas with their personnel. They will struggle on defense out of the gates. I see Eli hitting the wide open (uncovered) TE, RB and the open WR, TE, and keep moving the chains just like New England does. If you blitz Eli this year and its picked up he will torch you with these personnel.
not included: swing pass to Vereen ... this season can't start soon enough
will be able to match up with our receivers and that we will be unstoppable but the other teams always do find a way to stop us, we seem to say the same things every year......
will be able to match up with our receivers and that we will be unstoppable but the other teams always do find a way to stop us, we seem to say the same things every year......
yeah ... all those seasons this team had 1 of the best players in the entire league paired with a 6'5 monster redzone target and a 2nd year slot receiver who put up 8 TDs as a rookie and a TE who is athletically superior to some of the best WRs in the game ...
will be able to match up with our receivers and that we will be unstoppable but the other teams always do find a way to stop us, we seem to say the same things every year......
That's simply not true.
Maybe last year many of us expected a lot more from Victor Cruz and a couple of our TEs, but it's not like it's said every offseason. Quite the contrary, I believe.
will be able to match up with our receivers and that we will be unstoppable but the other teams always do find a way to stop us, we seem to say the same things every year......
will be able to match up with our receivers and that we will be unstoppable but the other teams always do find a way to stop us, we seem to say the same things every year......
2016 was the only year I can think of where many prognosticators, including myself, over-valued the team's receiving corps.
While we had a great year with injuries overall, losing blocking FB/TE Johnson (neck burner); RB Vereen (triceps); and seeing not development from Tye or Donnell really hurt.
I've said all off-season had just Johnson an Vereen stayed healthy all year we'd have had much better success. But I guess every team can say that?
Engram has to demonstrate that he can get off the line of scrimmage Â
and lose defenders. This means, besting NFL linebackers and eluding NFL free safeties. If he can do both, he will have an impact. Otherwise, he will spend 2017 learning the NFL game.
RE: Engram has to demonstrate that he can get off the line of scrimmage Â
and lose defenders. This means, besting NFL linebackers and eluding NFL free safeties. If he can do both, he will have an impact. Otherwise, he will spend 2017 learning the NFL game.
Beating the inline JAM will be absolutely key in determining how good Evan Engram will (or won't) be for the Giants. Some guys are "so so" versus the JAM. But with Engram you can move him so he doesn't have as much of an issue at least.
We'll know more about that about half-way into camp I guess and certainly by the end of the first quarter of the season, just watching how the Giants use him.
He's a 230+ pound freak of nature who can outrun AJ Green and Deandre Hopkins while 1 of the best players in the league draws almost all of the defense's attention
I believe the NFL is going to be forced to learn how to deal with him, not the other way around.
He's a 230+ pound freak of nature who can outrun AJ Green and Deandre Hopkins while 1 of the best players in the league draws almost all of the defense's attention
I believe the NFL is going to be forced to learn how to deal with him, not the other way around.
I hope you are right. I believe that by the second half of the season he'll be quite special.
I see Evan Engram in motion; inline; even in the slot finding the mismatches that will be there. I for one am super glad we drafted this young man with big upside.
Some of these comments, if you didn't know anything of the pick Â
Yes. I expect he'll show that his refined game, speed, hands, and most importantly his mentality (smarts, dedication, and drive) will prove to be enough that he can be hot from out of the gate.
Hunter Henry was the consensus top TE last year. He joined a team with an All Pro TE already which limited his utility, and he ended up with 8 TDs and near 500 yards. That was on fewer targets than Will Tye got (who finished with 400 yards and 1 single TD). So, if we can imagine Engram as not only a better player (drafter higher by a team with a good track record in the first) but a player whose skillset was lauded mostly for his receiving skills, we may assume he'll have an even bigger season than Henry did last year (in 15 games with 10 starts).
I'm thinking and 50 catch 800 yard 8 TD year is within reach and not a stretch, especially with how game ready a lot of these receivers and TEs have been as of late.
He's a 230+ pound freak of nature who can outrun AJ Green and Deandre Hopkins while 1 of the best players in the league draws almost all of the defense's attention
I believe the NFL is going to be forced to learn how to deal with him, not the other way around.
That 2 deep shell coverage will be rendered obsolete with Engram's presence, and especially so if Perkins is the real deal on the ground.
He's a 230+ pound freak of nature who can outrun AJ Green and Deandre Hopkins while 1 of the best players in the league draws almost all of the defense's attention
I believe the NFL is going to be forced to learn how to deal with him, not the other way around.
That 2 deep shell coverage will be rendered obsolete with Engram's presence, and especially so if Perkins is the real deal on the ground.
The 2 deep shell worked to take away OBJ and leave the rest of our receiving corps single covered. We had limited formations we could line up in due to a lack of talent.
This year, we can go 3 WR; 2 WR; 1 WR and 3 TE; the list should be pretty long and diverse which is a huge bonus and will make it hard for teams to prepare for us. We just need the OL to develop. That is the big question mark, especially OT
here's a little refresher of this guy's freakish (unfair?) athleticism ...
jordan reed is considered a "matchup nightmare" Engram ... go deep - ( New Window )
4.42 at 234 pounds is outright sick speed. Engram and OBJ go "stride for stride" based on the stats. I can see this kid juking out many a LB or SS. If teams put a 3rd corner on him you also have the option to mix up a run as he can block (he's willing and able as the coaches stated) and such.
Imagine if he has an "OBJ rookie year" type impact for the season? 65-900-8 type numbers or something? Eli's mouth has to be watering with this type of vertical threat down the middle.
here's a little refresher of this guy's freakish (unfair?) athleticism ...
jordan reed is considered a "matchup nightmare" Engram ... go deep - ( New Window )
4.42 at 234 pounds is outright sick speed. Engram and OBJ go "stride for stride" based on the stats. I can see this kid juking out many a LB or SS. If teams put a 3rd corner on him you also have the option to mix up a run as he can block (he's willing and able as the coaches stated) and such.
Imagine if he has an "OBJ rookie year" type impact for the season? 65-900-8 type numbers or something? Eli's mouth has to be watering with this type of vertical threat down the middle.
with a 3-cone identical to aj green, better than mike Evans/sammy Watkins ... and more short area quickness than Julio Jones.
I'm so glad the "TE" label allowed him to drop ... I have no idea why those WRs went so much earlier than him.
here's a little refresher of this guy's freakish (unfair?) athleticism ...
jordan reed is considered a "matchup nightmare" Engram ... go deep - ( New Window )
4.42 at 234 pounds is outright sick speed. Engram and OBJ go "stride for stride" based on the stats. I can see this kid juking out many a LB or SS. If teams put a 3rd corner on him you also have the option to mix up a run as he can block (he's willing and able as the coaches stated) and such.
Imagine if he has an "OBJ rookie year" type impact for the season? 65-900-8 type numbers or something? Eli's mouth has to be watering with this type of vertical threat down the middle.
with a 3-cone identical to aj green, better than mike Evans/sammy Watkins ... and more short area quickness than Julio Jones.
I'm so glad the "TE" label allowed him to drop ... I have no idea why those WRs went so much earlier than him.
F R E A K - ( New Window )
August 11 and the first pre-season game can't come fast enough. I'll be focusing on the first team OL; Engram and D. Tomlinson the most. Engram is a physical beast.
his biggest impact will be moving the chains ala Witten Â
Im going to reiterate some things I have said on prioer threads shortly after the draft. Evan Engram should have significant impact on the Giants this year BEYOND how many catches, yards and TD. Those are stats.. I believe what is far more important is formations and how you stress the defense.
What Engram will allow the Giants to do ( as well as the additions of other players) is be multiple.
As McAdoo said in his interview on Wfan after the draft and it was a small point that most didnt pick up on. They will be MULTIPLE.. meaning they will be Multiple in their offensive formations and fronts. Obviously they can very depending on the defensive alignments they see, down, distance and position on the field.. which is good.
Giants played 1062 snaps on offense last year.
Will Tye played 682 of those snaps 64.12%...
think bout that for a second.. Will Tye played 65% of the Giants offensive snap counts..
Would you rather have Will Tye out there 65% of the time.. or Evan Engram out there 65% of the time?? Who do you think the defense is going to worry about more? Poor route running Tye or Good route running Big and FAST Engram.. That already stresses the defense. I can easily cover Tye with a LB or Safety.. Engram is too fast for most LB's and Safeties.. So do I then utilize a corner.. but if I do that then that opens up things for Marshall, OBJ or Shep. If I put a safety on Engram then that means there is no over the top help for the guy covering OBJ.
Impact.. without even catching a pass..
Just looking at a post on Personnel groupings and thinking about the Giants. It seems that 11 Personnel is the dominant package for NFL teams who play out of it more than 50% of the time.
I think the issue with the Giants is WHO makes up that group. They have the flexibility to utilize different players in that group and now they have the ability to " be Multiple " in terms of which formation or set they are in.
For example I was looking and thinking..
They could come out in a 12 Personnel package.. One RB, 2 TE's and 2 WR's with Perkins, Ellison, Marshall, OBJ, Engram. Then they could flex Engram out wide into an 11 Personnel package with Engram being a WR. They could also do the reverse.
If your the defense.. now what do you do.. It looked like a 2 TE run package and now its a 3WR package which they could run or pass out of easily..
They can easily use 00, 01, 02(a favorite of the Patriots when they had Hernandez), 10, 11, 12, even 13,
They could use a 20 package with 3 WR's and 2 RB's with Perkins and Vereen on the field could become a 10 with Vereen being used as a WR.. Or they could put Engram in the backfield as an Hback with Perkins OR Vereen. They could put Engram and Vereen in the backfield and then switch to either a 00 or Five WR's with Engram and Vereen becoming receivers.. OR they go to a 10 with Vereen staying in at RB and Engram being the 4th WR
Because of the personnel they should be able to show a defense multiple looks and multiple formation and better disguise what they are doing or change to one formation or another to potentially exploit a defense.
This is also why people worrying about Engram cutting into Shepard's snaps is somewhat overblown. There are at least 6 of these formations that utilize a minimum of 3 receivers. And with Engram being a Move TE or Hback (he has lined up in the backfield in college) both he and Shepard can be on the field at the same time in at least 4 of these formations..
Idiotsavant has also brought up on several occasions how the Falcons utilize a 13 personnel that they both run and pass very effectively out of with multiple TE's especially in the red zone.
It will be interesting to see what McAdoo does with the tools he has now..
So that being said.. I can easily see Engram having IMPACT in the way his abilities allow the Giants to run multiple offensive formations which will challenge a stretch a defense.
Think about this for a second. OBJ has been an absolute MONSTER his first three years with Ruben Randle, a broke down, not suited for the outside Victor Cruz and NO TE.. and a poor running game..
Imagine how much can open up for him with a solid WR opposite him, an improved running game with Perkins, Gallman and a healthy Vereen AND a TE who can attack and stress defenders...
Im going to reiterate some things I have said on prioer threads shortly after the draft. Evan Engram should have significant impact on the Giants this year BEYOND how many catches, yards and TD. Those are stats.. I believe what is far more important is formations and how you stress the defense.
What Engram will allow the Giants to do ( as well as the additions of other players) is be multiple.
As McAdoo said in his interview on Wfan after the draft and it was a small point that most didnt pick up on. They will be MULTIPLE.. meaning they will be Multiple in their offensive formations and fronts. Obviously they can very depending on the defensive alignments they see, down, distance and position on the field.. which is good.
Giants played 1062 snaps on offense last year.
Will Tye played 682 of those snaps 64.12%...
think bout that for a second.. Will Tye played 65% of the Giants offensive snap counts..
Would you rather have Will Tye out there 65% of the time.. or Evan Engram out there 65% of the time?? Who do you think the defense is going to worry about more? Poor route running Tye or Good route running Big and FAST Engram.. That already stresses the defense. I can easily cover Tye with a LB or Safety.. Engram is too fast for most LB's and Safeties.. So do I then utilize a corner.. but if I do that then that opens up things for Marshall, OBJ or Shep. If I put a safety on Engram then that means there is no over the top help for the guy covering OBJ.
Impact.. without even catching a pass..
Just looking at a post on Personnel groupings and thinking about the Giants. It seems that 11 Personnel is the dominant package for NFL teams who play out of it more than 50% of the time.
I think the issue with the Giants is WHO makes up that group. They have the flexibility to utilize different players in that group and now they have the ability to " be Multiple " in terms of which formation or set they are in.
For example I was looking and thinking..
They could come out in a 12 Personnel package.. One RB, 2 TE's and 2 WR's with Perkins, Ellison, Marshall, OBJ, Engram. Then they could flex Engram out wide into an 11 Personnel package with Engram being a WR. They could also do the reverse.
If your the defense.. now what do you do.. It looked like a 2 TE run package and now its a 3WR package which they could run or pass out of easily..
They can easily use 00, 01, 02(a favorite of the Patriots when they had Hernandez), 10, 11, 12, even 13,
They could use a 20 package with 3 WR's and 2 RB's with Perkins and Vereen on the field could become a 10 with Vereen being used as a WR.. Or they could put Engram in the backfield as an Hback with Perkins OR Vereen. They could put Engram and Vereen in the backfield and then switch to either a 00 or Five WR's with Engram and Vereen becoming receivers.. OR they go to a 10 with Vereen staying in at RB and Engram being the 4th WR
Because of the personnel they should be able to show a defense multiple looks and multiple formation and better disguise what they are doing or change to one formation or another to potentially exploit a defense.
This is also why people worrying about Engram cutting into Shepard's snaps is somewhat overblown. There are at least 6 of these formations that utilize a minimum of 3 receivers. And with Engram being a Move TE or Hback (he has lined up in the backfield in college) both he and Shepard can be on the field at the same time in at least 4 of these formations..
Idiotsavant has also brought up on several occasions how the Falcons utilize a 13 personnel that they both run and pass very effectively out of with multiple TE's especially in the red zone.
It will be interesting to see what McAdoo does with the tools he has now..
So that being said.. I can easily see Engram having IMPACT in the way his abilities allow the Giants to run multiple offensive formations which will challenge a stretch a defense.
Think about this for a second. OBJ has been an absolute MONSTER his first three years with Ruben Randle, a broke down, not suited for the outside Victor Cruz and NO TE.. and a poor running game..
Imagine how much can open up for him with a solid WR opposite him, an improved running game with Perkins, Gallman and a healthy Vereen AND a TE who can attack and stress defenders...
IMPACT
I totally concur with your first paragraph: Engram automatically stresses a defense due to his size & speed ration which is outright sick good at 4.42 40 yd dash, as fast as OBJ, .01 faster actually and he is 3" and 35 pounds bigger to boot!
If Engram can beat that young Dallas secondary deep down the middle for 40 or more yards and a score he will set the tone for himself and the offense the rest of the year as safeties will be put on him and they'll stay back a bit due to his size and speed. He beats a jam and its over.
but line Odell / Engram up on the same side of the formation ... Odell - go route; Engram - deep post ...
laugh at the cowboys "enthusiastic" defensive backs ...
I'm guessing there will be a lot of formations with Engram moving all over, Odell moving too, just various ones.
I'm really looking forward to the August 1st pre-season game, just to see how Engram does down the field as I'm sure they'll try him deep at least once for the experience.
but line Odell / Engram up on the same side of the formation ... Odell - go route; Engram - deep post ...
laugh at the cowboys "enthusiastic" defensive backs ...
I'm guessing there will be a lot of formations with Engram moving all over, Odell moving too, just various ones.
I'm really looking forward to the August 1st pre-season game, just to see how Engram does down the field as I'm sure they'll try him deep at least once for the experience.
the possibilities are endless ... as along as Engram doesn't drop the ball - I really have no idea how defenses are going to contain Beckham and Engram ... while Shepard moves the chains ...
oh yeah, and then Brandon Marshall instead of the ghost of Victor Cruz ... Week 1 can not come fast enough.
Engram will start and will have a huge impact on Giants offense. Really looking forward to watching this kid make plays.
Shockey, Jimmy Graham, Kellen Winslow, Jr., pre-injury, Jets' Johnny Mitchell, Jason Witten, Gates, tons more, imv
But I do not think it would be early in the season....it will take a little while.
Shockey, Jimmy Graham, Kellen Winslow, Jr., pre-injury, Jets' Johnny Mitchell, Jason Witten, Gates, tons more, imv
Kellen Winslow??? played two games in his rookie season and none in his second season -- Gates had 24 Receptions and no TDs in his Rookie season, Johnny Mitchell had 16 receptions in his rookie year, Jason Witten was hardly an impact player in his rookie season - so I'll give you Shockey and Graham -- the reality is that the overwhelming majority of star TEs did not do well in year 1 - please give me some real examples -- Shockey was an anomaly and we certainly don't want to see Engram repeat Shockey - who's first year was his best year -- he couldn't live up to that afterwards.
Jordan Raanan Retweeted Mike Clay
This reiterates what I found as well. History not on Evan Engram or any rookie TEs side for this year http://www.espn.com/blog/new-york-giants/post/_/id/51728/giants-top-pick-evan-engram-has-to-buck-trend-to-be-significant-factor-as-rookie …
Link - ( New Window )
Jordan Raanan Retweeted The King of Qu- FoHi
Only way to show he's a threat is by making plays and putting up stats. He's not getting instant respect just by running fast down the field
Link - ( New Window )
(I have not seen it yet)
Engram will be successful if McAdoo & Sullivan can use all these weapons in the right way and at the right times.
OBJ, Marshall, Engram, Vereen, and Shepard are a matchup nightmare if used correctly.
Spag's proved if you give him the talent he can use it in the right way and put people in the right places to be successful. (his play calling the 2nd half of the year was off the charts)
Can McAdoo & Sullivan do the same?
They used to say that about WRs and then the 2014 draft class hit (Beckham, Evans, Landry, Cooks, etc).
Giants fans especially should be wary of this statement with Shockey (74/894/2) and even Will Tye (42/464/3).
Other recent players:
- Hunter Henry put up 36/478/8 last season.
- Jordan Reed (a guy many have compared Engram too): 45/499/3 in just 9 games
- Tim Wright 54/571/5
- Gronk 42/546/10
- Dwayne Allen 45/521/3
- Zack Ertz 36/469/4
You don't see any TEs putting up 1000 yard seasons, but then again, since 2000 there have only been 23 times total that TEs have crossed that mark and Gronk/Graham/Gonzalez account for 9 of those. In other words, a TE with a 60+ catch, 800+ yard, 5+ TD season is a pro-bowler so a rookie going for 40+ rec, 500+ yards and 5+ TDs is impactful.
Quote:
Jordan Raanan @JordanRaanan
Jordan Raanan Retweeted Mike Clay
This reiterates what I found as well. History not on Evan Engram or any rookie TEs side for this year http://www.espn.com/blog/new-york-giants/post/_/id/51728/giants-top-pick-evan-engram-has-to-buck-trend-to-be-significant-factor-as-rookie …
Link - ( New Window )
The problem with this is that receiving stats are dominated and headlined by WRs (obviously) so when people view any receiving stats, their threshold for what is "impactful" or "good" is based on their view of what the top WRs do. But the #s for the top receiving TEs are well below that and thus, the expectations for what constitutes an impactful year from a rookie TE needs to be adjust accordingly.
From Ranaan's list, I would argue Gresham and Keller had strong rookie seasons (particularly the former who's also a strong run blocker) and Eifert and Olsen were solid. Ebron was awful, especially since his run blocking was poor and Pettigrew was a disappointment as well.
I expect him to make big plays when needed, and to help make defenses respect the entire field.
If the offense is productive, it will be because Marshall and Engram are making it hard for teams to bracket OBJ. Which will help with the running game and passing game.
Outside of injury I think he will be involved plenty and his presence alone will be a huge upgrade from last years pathetic TE contribution.
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Shockey, Jimmy Graham, Kellen Winslow, Jr., pre-injury, Jets' Johnny Mitchell, Jason Witten, Gates, tons more, imv
Kellen Winslow??? played two games in his rookie season and none in his second season -- Gates had 24 Receptions and no TDs in his Rookie season, Johnny Mitchell had 16 receptions in his rookie year, Jason Witten was hardly an impact player in his rookie season - so I'll give you Shockey and Graham -- the reality is that the overwhelming majority of star TEs did not do well in year 1 - please give me some real examples -- Shockey was an anomaly and we certainly don't want to see Engram repeat Shockey - who's first year was his best year -- he couldn't live up to that afterwards.
I thought Winslow played more than that, so my bad..Johnny Mitchell? I recall Giants fans lamenting that we took Derek Brown(a bust) over Mitchell, so my recall was based on how well he performed for the NYJ than stats per se..Different eras, but impact-wise(including blocking ability for those eras), Ditka, Mackey, KW! Sr., Jackie Smith, Newsome, Casper. Not sure of Shannon Sharpe's initial impact..There were others, but they wouldn't be listed as TEs today, imo..
Is he going to catch for 1000 yards and 10 TD's not likely..
Will he have an impact in affecting how defenses play against the Giants because they can change their formations and alignments.. yes..
And despite what Ranaan says.. no DC is going to allow a player to run free down the middle of the field.. He IS going to draw some coverage.. especially if he is fast..
So that will have an effect... will it lessen the amount of Cover 2 the Giants see.. very possible..
However effect and IMPACT can be seen differently..
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there is very little evidence to support the idea that a rookie TE can make an impact in the NFL
They used to say that about WRs and then the 2014 draft class hit (Beckham, Evans, Landry, Cooks, etc).
Giants fans especially should be wary of this statement with Shockey (74/894/2) and even Will Tye (42/464/3).
Other recent players:
- Hunter Henry put up 36/478/8 last season.
- Jordan Reed (a guy many have compared Engram too): 45/499/3 in just 9 games
- Tim Wright 54/571/5
- Gronk 42/546/10
- Dwayne Allen 45/521/3
- Zack Ertz 36/469/4
You don't see any TEs putting up 1000 yard seasons, but then again, since 2000 there have only been 23 times total that TEs have crossed that mark and Gronk/Graham/Gonzalez account for 9 of those. In other words, a TE with a 60+ catch, 800+ yard, 5+ TD season is a pro-bowler so a rookie going for 40+ rec, 500+ yards and 5+ TDs is impactful.
Some good points. One thing to keep in mind is that Engram is significantly faster than any of those players were or are.
Gronk
Graham
Tony Gonzalez
Gates
Witten
Travis Kelce
Dallas Clark
Kellen Winslow
Delanie Walker
Gary Barnidge
Greg Olsen
That's literally it. 11 TEs in 17 seasons. And 4 of those (Gonzo, Witten, Gates, and Gronk if he stays somewhat healthy) are HOF TEs. If you lower the threshold to >900 yards, you can add:
Brent Celek
Vernon Davis
Jordan Reed
Jordan Cameron
Martellus Bennett
Aaron Hernandez
to the list. So 17 TEs have topped 900 yards in a season in the last 17 years. Those 17 TEs have combined to top 900 yards just 44 times over that period. For comparison, there were 23 WRs to top 1000 yards in 2016 alone. There were 31 WRs with >900 yards last season. So if 1000 yards is the benchmark for "top" WRs, roughly 1 out of 3 starters reached that level (23 out of 64 assuming teams start 2 WRs).
So people need to stop comparing TEs production to the the typical "1000 yard mark" that is used to judge WRs. A more appropriate level for judging "top" TE production (i.e. the level reached by the top 1/3 of TEs) is 650-700 yards receiving based on last season's totals. If the goal for a rookie is to be 75% of that, then a "good" season for Engram would be around 500 yards receiving which is basically what Tye did as a rookie in less than a full season. So yes, I expect Engram to hit that target and will be disappointed if he falls short of 500 yards.
Some good points. One thing to keep in mind is that Engram is significantly faster than any of those players were or are.
Sure, he's also smaller (height and weight) than many of them and could struggle with jams against LBs particularly when lined up inline.
The biggest advantage for Engram though, is that few, if any, of the recent TEs had a player as dynamic as Beckham lined up outside (to say nothing of BM and SS). Beckham's big play ability alone should get Engram a few easy catches underneath.
Will Tye caught 42 passes for 464 yards in 7 starts (13 games) as a rookie 2 seasons ago with roughly the same OL. You could argue a shitty OL makes a good receiving TE even more vital to an offense since he's an option for quick dump-offs. And unlike Donnell catching it in the flat, Engram actually has the ability to turn up field and pick up some yardage.
If Engram doesn't pick up his assignments from the playbook right away he is only going to see very limited reps on the field at the beginning of the season. For him to score in game 1 would be great but it is wildly unrealistic. McAdoo and Co would have to have developed a lot of confidence in him for that to happen.
No matter how good he is going to be eventually - he is still a rookie and will have rookie growing pains.
With OBJ, Shepard and Marshall the opposing D will be severely challenged. Engram will have at least 10 TDs this season. We are about to witness the most explosive Giant O in franchise history and Engram threat to take the top off the D, will be a huge reason why. Forget the statistics of the past rookies because none have come into the league with his skill set, maturity and dedication to his craft. All predraft reports pointed to him being the cleanest prospect in the draft. Singular focus and dedication leads to greatness.
Best case -
COME ON BABY LIGHT MY FIRE!
Maybe if it were 7 on 7, but given the question marks on the OL that's a wild leap of faith.
If Engram doesn't pick up his assignments from the playbook right away he is only going to see very limited reps on the field at the beginning of the season. For him to score in game 1 would be great but it is wildly unrealistic. McAdoo and Co would have to have developed a lot of confidence in him for that to happen.
No matter how good he is going to be eventually - he is still a rookie and will have rookie growing pains.
I can't speak for others, but if he and Ellison are both healthy to open the season, I expect Ellison to get ~70% of the TE snaps and Engram 30%. By the end of the season, I think those percentages will be flipped (though I think we'll also see a lot of 2 TE sets with both of them).
As far as Engram's final numbers, my expectations are: 40+ rec, 500+ yds, and 6+ TDs.
I'd be psyched for 60-800-10 but I'll save that for next year. I think he'll learn some patterns that he is totally comfortable with and run with it.
This class of TEs was also regarded as the most talented in a long time -- maybe ever.
And as others have said, he doesn't need to go 60 1k and 10 to be impactful.
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there is very little evidence to support the idea that a rookie TE can make an impact in the NFL
This class of TEs was also regarded as the most talented in a long time -- maybe ever.
And as others have said, he doesn't need to go 60 1k and 10 to be impactful.
The difference will be in yards, imo. Tye was averaging around 8 ypc. He basically would catch the ball and get tackled right away (4.1 YAC). I'm thinking Engram could average about 12 ypc (about 6 YAC), but I wouldn't be surprised if he averages more. That would put him at around 600 yards.
Also, he has breakaway speed for the position. He has the kind of speed that makes it difficult for db's to catch him if he gets a seam. I think that means he can score TD's from outside the red zone, something most TE cannot do very often. We saw in the 2011 playoffs what a super-fast TE can do in a secondary with Davis getting two TD's. I wouldn't be surprised if Engram gets a few this way to go along with a handful in the red zone.
So my prediction is for 50 catches, 600 yards, and 8 TD's. I know that's optimistic, but it would make him a good, not great TE in this league. He would rank 12th in receptions, 17th in yards, and 1st in TD's.
So the TD's could easily be a little lower, but the yards and catches could also be higher. I think this kind of projection is very possible and may even be on the low side for Engram.
If this offense can stay healthy, Mac has to open up the play book, and make this offense unpredictable....
Who's covering him? Are teams ever going to dare double him and leave Beckham in man coverage? Or Marshall 1 on 1 in the redzone?
Engram is going to see man all day ... and there's not many defenders that can match up his size/speed.
1. Lack of talent in front of him. He'll get PT.
2. It's clear as day he'll get open in the NFL. I have no doubts about his receiving ability. His game will work in the NFL.
Last year, Henry would have put up monster numbers but Gates is there. When Gates was out, Henry was an impact player. Engram won't have that hurdle here.
Kelce was an impact player the first year he played. He had knee surgery as a rookie. When he hit the field he dominated from the start. 70-800 in his first year of NFL ball. I think Engram can hit those numbers. The opportunity is there for him. Hes such a tough cover and they would be fools not to feature him.
He will be a big play guy so I can see some monster games. I can see him being the 2nd best offensive weapon in year 1.
Yeah, but let's hope he doesn't miss eleven games due to an injury in his rookie year, like Smith did.
Apple, Flowers, Odell, Pugh, Amukamara, JPP, Nicks. Those are all Reese first rounders who contributed in year one. That is a good track record over the years indicating they know what they are doing in round 1.
It's up to Engram ultimately. But I trust the staffs judgement.
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Be ready to make plays in the postseason... a la Steve Smith
Yeah, but let's hope he doesn't miss eleven games due to an injury in his rookie year, like Smith did.
Preach
This is a home run...
If the OL doesn't fall apart this team will compete for the Super Bowl this year. I'm really excited about this team.
If the OL doesn't fall apart this team will compete for the Super Bowl this year. I'm really excited about this team.
Evan Engram seems polished. I had him at 45-600 but I'm going with 50-650-6 now as this thread has my blood going. LOL.
[quote] would be a huge impact if he shows that he can play right out of the gate and doesn't have any Larry Donnell or Will Tye type moments of idiocy. Just being a good player at the position would be an impact. Forget putting a yardage quota on it. [/quote All Engram needs to do is scare defenses, keep safeties honest, just fly down the middle and open things up for the run game and wideouts.
But my hope is that by the last few games he is deadly and carries us into the playoffs.
This is an important point. The Engram pick on some level had to be a counter strategy to how defenses neutralized them last year. If the WRs are making impact plays and the offense is scoring more points, I'll consider that a win even if Engram doesn't have the stats.
If McAdoo allows it, I could see the Giants offense morphing into an option based offense with the play selected by Eli at the line depending on who is covering EE. It may be a LB, S, or CB. As a defender, each has a physical disability when trying to cover and/or tackle him that can and should be exploited.
I am not belittling OBJ here. I assume he will be covered most of the time by at least a CB with deep S help.
Where the ball ends up is affected but not determined by this. The greatest beneficiary of the conumdrum that Giants pose to other teams is apt to be BM. He is likely to be singled against a player the physical equivalent of Trevin Wade.
Sheppard had 65/683/8
Tye had 48/395/1
If Engram has ~55 catches and 450 yards with a handful of TDs I would call that impactful for a rookie.
He he closes in on 90% of Sheps's stats from last year, watch out.
That will draw Safety attention to keep an eye on him. And then we fire off a few to OBJ when they dare to single him up.
Easy...
Not confident how much the run blocking will improve so McAdoo damn well better take this new TE out for a ride early in games....
I think the addition of Brandon Marshall will be a strong factor in allowing OBJ to get open a whole lot more than he did last year and that alone will be enough to improve the running game as well......
However, reports out of mini-camp said he was lining up all over, split wide, etc. If they get into a situation where he motions to one side alone and they have to cover him with a safety or LB it's going to be tough. I expect when Eli sees that coverage he's going to pounce on it regularly.
However, reports out of mini-camp said he was lining up all over, split wide, etc. If they get into a situation where he motions to one side alone and they have to cover him with a safety or LB it's going to be tough. I expect when Eli sees that coverage he's going to pounce on it regularly.
Engram on a LB is a "throw it to me situation" for sure.
Engram helps us create mis-matches due to his skillset and speed.
If Engram is legit, this passing game is impossible to match up with. Beckham and Engram alone will be nightmares.
If Engram is legit, this passing game is impossible to match up with. Beckham and Engram alone will be nightmares.
quick outs to Shepard, slants to Beckham, back shoulder fades to Marshall, Engram vs a slower LB or smaller DB ...
I can not wait to embarrass Dallas in primetime. they do not have the personnel to exploit the OL, even if it does suck.
quick outs to Shepard, slants to Beckham, back shoulder fades to Marshall, Engram vs a slower LB or smaller DB ...
I can not wait to embarrass Dallas in primetime. they do not have the personnel to exploit the OL, even if it does suck.
His rookie year, he just needs to be good enough that the defenses will defend him better, having a trickle down effect on everyone else.
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hope to get to Eli before the pass is thrown ... I really have no idea how else you game plan for that attack.
quick outs to Shepard, slants to Beckham, back shoulder fades to Marshall, Engram vs a slower LB or smaller DB ...
I can not wait to embarrass Dallas in primetime. they do not have the personnel to exploit the OL, even if it does suck.
Agreed on Dallas with their personnel. They will struggle on defense out of the gates. I see Eli hitting the wide open (uncovered) TE, RB and the open WR, TE, and keep moving the chains just like New England does. If you blitz Eli this year and its picked up he will torch you with these personnel.
not included: swing pass to Vereen ... this season can't start soon enough
yeah ... all those seasons this team had 1 of the best players in the entire league paired with a 6'5 monster redzone target and a 2nd year slot receiver who put up 8 TDs as a rookie and a TE who is athletically superior to some of the best WRs in the game ...
That's simply not true.
Maybe last year many of us expected a lot more from Victor Cruz and a couple of our TEs, but it's not like it's said every offseason. Quite the contrary, I believe.
just pacing ourselves really...
While we had a great year with injuries overall, losing blocking FB/TE Johnson (neck burner); RB Vereen (triceps); and seeing not development from Tye or Donnell really hurt.
I've said all off-season had just Johnson an Vereen stayed healthy all year we'd have had much better success. But I guess every team can say that?
We'll know more about that about half-way into camp I guess and certainly by the end of the first quarter of the season, just watching how the Giants use him.
Are you crazy? The league would never allow it!
I believe the NFL is going to be forced to learn how to deal with him, not the other way around.
I believe the NFL is going to be forced to learn how to deal with him, not the other way around.
I see Evan Engram in motion; inline; even in the slot finding the mismatches that will be there. I for one am super glad we drafted this young man with big upside.
only ours is faster, isn't a known gang member, and has Odell Beckham Jr. occupying defenses.
I can't f'ing wait for the Dallas game.
Hunter Henry was the consensus top TE last year. He joined a team with an All Pro TE already which limited his utility, and he ended up with 8 TDs and near 500 yards. That was on fewer targets than Will Tye got (who finished with 400 yards and 1 single TD). So, if we can imagine Engram as not only a better player (drafter higher by a team with a good track record in the first) but a player whose skillset was lauded mostly for his receiving skills, we may assume he'll have an even bigger season than Henry did last year (in 15 games with 10 starts).
I'm thinking and 50 catch 800 yard 8 TD year is within reach and not a stretch, especially with how game ready a lot of these receivers and TEs have been as of late.
I believe the NFL is going to be forced to learn how to deal with him, not the other way around.
That 2 deep shell coverage will be rendered obsolete with Engram's presence, and especially so if Perkins is the real deal on the ground.
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He's a 230+ pound freak of nature who can outrun AJ Green and Deandre Hopkins while 1 of the best players in the league draws almost all of the defense's attention
I believe the NFL is going to be forced to learn how to deal with him, not the other way around.
That 2 deep shell coverage will be rendered obsolete with Engram's presence, and especially so if Perkins is the real deal on the ground.
This year, we can go 3 WR; 2 WR; 1 WR and 3 TE; the list should be pretty long and diverse which is a huge bonus and will make it hard for teams to prepare for us. We just need the OL to develop. That is the big question mark, especially OT
jordan reed is considered a "matchup nightmare"
Engram ... go deep - ( New Window )
jordan reed is considered a "matchup nightmare" Engram ... go deep - ( New Window )
Imagine if he has an "OBJ rookie year" type impact for the season? 65-900-8 type numbers or something? Eli's mouth has to be watering with this type of vertical threat down the middle.
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here's a little refresher of this guy's freakish (unfair?) athleticism ...
jordan reed is considered a "matchup nightmare" Engram ... go deep - ( New Window )
4.42 at 234 pounds is outright sick speed. Engram and OBJ go "stride for stride" based on the stats. I can see this kid juking out many a LB or SS. If teams put a 3rd corner on him you also have the option to mix up a run as he can block (he's willing and able as the coaches stated) and such.
Imagine if he has an "OBJ rookie year" type impact for the season? 65-900-8 type numbers or something? Eli's mouth has to be watering with this type of vertical threat down the middle.
with a 3-cone identical to aj green, better than mike Evans/sammy Watkins ... and more short area quickness than Julio Jones.
I'm so glad the "TE" label allowed him to drop ... I have no idea why those WRs went so much earlier than him.
F R E A K - ( New Window )
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In comment 13524316 annexOPR said:
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here's a little refresher of this guy's freakish (unfair?) athleticism ...
jordan reed is considered a "matchup nightmare" Engram ... go deep - ( New Window )
4.42 at 234 pounds is outright sick speed. Engram and OBJ go "stride for stride" based on the stats. I can see this kid juking out many a LB or SS. If teams put a 3rd corner on him you also have the option to mix up a run as he can block (he's willing and able as the coaches stated) and such.
Imagine if he has an "OBJ rookie year" type impact for the season? 65-900-8 type numbers or something? Eli's mouth has to be watering with this type of vertical threat down the middle.
with a 3-cone identical to aj green, better than mike Evans/sammy Watkins ... and more short area quickness than Julio Jones.
I'm so glad the "TE" label allowed him to drop ... I have no idea why those WRs went so much earlier than him.
F R E A K - ( New Window )
it'll be when forcing teams to think twice about that cover 2 shell / double Odell they saw all year last season ... and he will burn them accordingly
4.4 speed at his size will be doing a lot more than "moving the chains"
What Engram will allow the Giants to do ( as well as the additions of other players) is be multiple.
As McAdoo said in his interview on Wfan after the draft and it was a small point that most didnt pick up on. They will be MULTIPLE.. meaning they will be Multiple in their offensive formations and fronts. Obviously they can very depending on the defensive alignments they see, down, distance and position on the field.. which is good.
Giants played 1062 snaps on offense last year.
Will Tye played 682 of those snaps 64.12%...
think bout that for a second.. Will Tye played 65% of the Giants offensive snap counts..
Would you rather have Will Tye out there 65% of the time.. or Evan Engram out there 65% of the time?? Who do you think the defense is going to worry about more? Poor route running Tye or Good route running Big and FAST Engram.. That already stresses the defense. I can easily cover Tye with a LB or Safety.. Engram is too fast for most LB's and Safeties.. So do I then utilize a corner.. but if I do that then that opens up things for Marshall, OBJ or Shep. If I put a safety on Engram then that means there is no over the top help for the guy covering OBJ.
Impact.. without even catching a pass..
Just looking at a post on Personnel groupings and thinking about the Giants. It seems that 11 Personnel is the dominant package for NFL teams who play out of it more than 50% of the time.
I think the issue with the Giants is WHO makes up that group. They have the flexibility to utilize different players in that group and now they have the ability to " be Multiple " in terms of which formation or set they are in.
For example I was looking and thinking..
They could come out in a 12 Personnel package.. One RB, 2 TE's and 2 WR's with Perkins, Ellison, Marshall, OBJ, Engram. Then they could flex Engram out wide into an 11 Personnel package with Engram being a WR. They could also do the reverse.
If your the defense.. now what do you do.. It looked like a 2 TE run package and now its a 3WR package which they could run or pass out of easily..
They can easily use 00, 01, 02(a favorite of the Patriots when they had Hernandez), 10, 11, 12, even 13,
They could use a 20 package with 3 WR's and 2 RB's with Perkins and Vereen on the field could become a 10 with Vereen being used as a WR.. Or they could put Engram in the backfield as an Hback with Perkins OR Vereen. They could put Engram and Vereen in the backfield and then switch to either a 00 or Five WR's with Engram and Vereen becoming receivers.. OR they go to a 10 with Vereen staying in at RB and Engram being the 4th WR
Because of the personnel they should be able to show a defense multiple looks and multiple formation and better disguise what they are doing or change to one formation or another to potentially exploit a defense.
This is also why people worrying about Engram cutting into Shepard's snaps is somewhat overblown. There are at least 6 of these formations that utilize a minimum of 3 receivers. And with Engram being a Move TE or Hback (he has lined up in the backfield in college) both he and Shepard can be on the field at the same time in at least 4 of these formations..
Idiotsavant has also brought up on several occasions how the Falcons utilize a 13 personnel that they both run and pass very effectively out of with multiple TE's especially in the red zone.
It will be interesting to see what McAdoo does with the tools he has now..
So that being said.. I can easily see Engram having IMPACT in the way his abilities allow the Giants to run multiple offensive formations which will challenge a stretch a defense.
Think about this for a second. OBJ has been an absolute MONSTER his first three years with Ruben Randle, a broke down, not suited for the outside Victor Cruz and NO TE.. and a poor running game..
Imagine how much can open up for him with a solid WR opposite him, an improved running game with Perkins, Gallman and a healthy Vereen AND a TE who can attack and stress defenders...
IMPACT
"Impact" - ( New Window )
What Engram will allow the Giants to do ( as well as the additions of other players) is be multiple.
As McAdoo said in his interview on Wfan after the draft and it was a small point that most didnt pick up on. They will be MULTIPLE.. meaning they will be Multiple in their offensive formations and fronts. Obviously they can very depending on the defensive alignments they see, down, distance and position on the field.. which is good.
Giants played 1062 snaps on offense last year.
Will Tye played 682 of those snaps 64.12%...
think bout that for a second.. Will Tye played 65% of the Giants offensive snap counts..
Would you rather have Will Tye out there 65% of the time.. or Evan Engram out there 65% of the time?? Who do you think the defense is going to worry about more? Poor route running Tye or Good route running Big and FAST Engram.. That already stresses the defense. I can easily cover Tye with a LB or Safety.. Engram is too fast for most LB's and Safeties.. So do I then utilize a corner.. but if I do that then that opens up things for Marshall, OBJ or Shep. If I put a safety on Engram then that means there is no over the top help for the guy covering OBJ.
Impact.. without even catching a pass..
Just looking at a post on Personnel groupings and thinking about the Giants. It seems that 11 Personnel is the dominant package for NFL teams who play out of it more than 50% of the time.
I think the issue with the Giants is WHO makes up that group. They have the flexibility to utilize different players in that group and now they have the ability to " be Multiple " in terms of which formation or set they are in.
For example I was looking and thinking..
They could come out in a 12 Personnel package.. One RB, 2 TE's and 2 WR's with Perkins, Ellison, Marshall, OBJ, Engram. Then they could flex Engram out wide into an 11 Personnel package with Engram being a WR. They could also do the reverse.
If your the defense.. now what do you do.. It looked like a 2 TE run package and now its a 3WR package which they could run or pass out of easily..
They can easily use 00, 01, 02(a favorite of the Patriots when they had Hernandez), 10, 11, 12, even 13,
They could use a 20 package with 3 WR's and 2 RB's with Perkins and Vereen on the field could become a 10 with Vereen being used as a WR.. Or they could put Engram in the backfield as an Hback with Perkins OR Vereen. They could put Engram and Vereen in the backfield and then switch to either a 00 or Five WR's with Engram and Vereen becoming receivers.. OR they go to a 10 with Vereen staying in at RB and Engram being the 4th WR
Because of the personnel they should be able to show a defense multiple looks and multiple formation and better disguise what they are doing or change to one formation or another to potentially exploit a defense.
This is also why people worrying about Engram cutting into Shepard's snaps is somewhat overblown. There are at least 6 of these formations that utilize a minimum of 3 receivers. And with Engram being a Move TE or Hback (he has lined up in the backfield in college) both he and Shepard can be on the field at the same time in at least 4 of these formations..
Idiotsavant has also brought up on several occasions how the Falcons utilize a 13 personnel that they both run and pass very effectively out of with multiple TE's especially in the red zone.
It will be interesting to see what McAdoo does with the tools he has now..
So that being said.. I can easily see Engram having IMPACT in the way his abilities allow the Giants to run multiple offensive formations which will challenge a stretch a defense.
Think about this for a second. OBJ has been an absolute MONSTER his first three years with Ruben Randle, a broke down, not suited for the outside Victor Cruz and NO TE.. and a poor running game..
Imagine how much can open up for him with a solid WR opposite him, an improved running game with Perkins, Gallman and a healthy Vereen AND a TE who can attack and stress defenders...
IMPACT
If Engram can beat that young Dallas secondary deep down the middle for 40 or more yards and a score he will set the tone for himself and the offense the rest of the year as safeties will be put on him and they'll stay back a bit due to his size and speed. He beats a jam and its over.
laugh at the cowboys "enthusiastic" defensive backs ...
laugh at the cowboys "enthusiastic" defensive backs ...
I'm really looking forward to the August 1st pre-season game, just to see how Engram does down the field as I'm sure they'll try him deep at least once for the experience.
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but line Odell / Engram up on the same side of the formation ... Odell - go route; Engram - deep post ...
laugh at the cowboys "enthusiastic" defensive backs ...
I'm guessing there will be a lot of formations with Engram moving all over, Odell moving too, just various ones.
I'm really looking forward to the August 1st pre-season game, just to see how Engram does down the field as I'm sure they'll try him deep at least once for the experience.
the possibilities are endless ... as along as Engram doesn't drop the ball - I really have no idea how defenses are going to contain Beckham and Engram ... while Shepard moves the chains ...
oh yeah, and then Brandon Marshall instead of the ghost of Victor Cruz ... Week 1 can not come fast enough.