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NFT: Chicago HS students won't be allowed to graduate w/o

yatqb : 7/8/2017 5:41 pm
either a college admission, a job offer, a trade internship, military enlistment or a gap year. This seems terribly unfair unless a ton of additional manufacturing or service jobs are coming available.

What are your thoughts, and please try to keep it apolitical.
Oops.  
yatqb : 7/8/2017 5:42 pm : link
Link
Link - ( New Window )
What are they going to do with them?  
Bill L : 7/8/2017 5:43 pm : link
Seems like pretty soon you would end up with senior classes numbering in the thousands.
In theory..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 7/8/2017 5:44 pm : link
I think it is an excellent idea. In practice, it will be an epic failure.
I think it would have a better chance  
Bill L : 7/8/2017 5:49 pm : link
If some of those options, e.g., trade internship, military, were incorporated and integral to their high school curricula
RE: In theory..  
yatqb : 7/8/2017 5:49 pm : link
In comment 13523287 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
I think it is an excellent idea. In practice, it will be an epic failure.


That's exactly my thoughts.
RE: What are they going to do with them?  
jcn56 : 7/8/2017 6:01 pm : link
In comment 13523286 Bill L said:
Quote:
Seems like pretty soon you would end up with senior classes numbering in the thousands.


+1.

If you don't go to college, fine. Get a job, join the military, or do an extra year of trade/vocational school training before you get a diploma. And it'd be best if that last two years of HS was the trade component for the most part.
RE: RE: In theory..  
ctc in ftmyers : 7/8/2017 6:06 pm : link
In comment 13523294 yatqb said:
Quote:
In comment 13523287 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


I think it is an excellent idea. In practice, it will be an epic failure.



That's exactly my thoughts.


Yep.

High school does not teach you enough to make your career decision.
RE: In theory..  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 7/8/2017 6:10 pm : link
In comment 13523287 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
I think it is an excellent idea. In practice, it will be an epic failure.


Agreed. I think it's an admirable goal, just not really feasible.
Aren't  
XBRONX : 7/8/2017 6:14 pm : link
there going to be loads of coaling mining jobs?
meant  
XBRONX : 7/8/2017 6:14 pm : link
coal
Think  
old man : 7/8/2017 7:04 pm : link
grade 13, grade 14......dropouts,.....welfare,social security disability.
BS  
weeg in the bronx : 7/8/2017 7:14 pm : link
If you passed the requirements you earned the degree. A vague future commitment should not determine the fate of your HS success. How does he stay in office?
Utterly absurd  
Greg from LI : 7/8/2017 7:39 pm : link
.
To make this good idea work they should hold the kids hands  
xman : 7/8/2017 7:42 pm : link
a little longer and guide them to the next milestone
So you graduate high school  
pjcas18 : 7/8/2017 7:43 pm : link
what other options are there?

Quote:
either a college admission, a job offer, a trade internship, military enlistment or a gap year.


If you aren't going to college, don't have a job offer, not doing a trade internship, not going to the military wouldn't a "gap year" be a fallback for everything else?
What will they do if a student wishes to start his own business  
steve in ky : 7/8/2017 8:05 pm : link
There still are some young entrepreneur's put there that choose to do something for themselves.
Sounds like they/he  
short lease : 7/8/2017 8:30 pm : link
are trying to get students focused/motivated on a direction or path after HS to be productive.

But, that doesn't seem legal to me ...?

Eventually, this will end up being decided in a court (I bet).
Thank god  
Deej : 7/8/2017 8:51 pm : link
I've always said, the biggest problem facing Chicago is too many high school graduates.
RE: So you graduate high school  
81_Great_Dane : 7/8/2017 9:03 pm : link
In comment 13523373 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
what other options are there?



Quote:


either a college admission, a job offer, a trade internship, military enlistment or a gap year.



If you aren't going to college, don't have a job offer, not doing a trade internship, not going to the military wouldn't a "gap year" be a fallback for everything else?
I think by a "gap year" they mean you have something lined up already for a year later. Like, you got accepted in 2017 for admission to college in 2018, but you'r taking a year off to work or travel or something.

I don't think it's a "gap year" unless there's something on the other side of the "gap." But I could be wrong.
RE: RE: So you graduate high school  
pjcas18 : 7/8/2017 9:10 pm : link
In comment 13523426 81_Great_Dane said:
Quote:
In comment 13523373 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


what other options are there?



Quote:


either a college admission, a job offer, a trade internship, military enlistment or a gap year.



If you aren't going to college, don't have a job offer, not doing a trade internship, not going to the military wouldn't a "gap year" be a fallback for everything else?

I think by a "gap year" they mean you have something lined up already for a year later. Like, you got accepted in 2017 for admission to college in 2018, but you'r taking a year off to work or travel or something.

I don't think it's a "gap year" unless there's something on the other side of the "gap." But I could be wrong.


In general a gap year I've always thought to be a year where you take off to figure out what you want to do.

Some kids get a job, some take classes at a community college, some do volunteer work (peace corps used to be popular during a gap year) some just travel. some do combinations of those things.

Anyway, it seems like the thought process is to get students motivated and thinking about their futures and even plan for their future, but the threat of not graduating seems about as legitimate as telling your kids "I'll turn this car around" unless like I think the gap year can be anything and doesn't require a commitment of any type beyond the gap year.
violates 1st amendment  
32_Razor : 7/8/2017 9:21 pm : link
can't tell an 18 year old {adult} what they have to do with their life to obtain a public graduation from a public high school
Speaking from a position of experience  
B in ALB : 7/8/2017 9:21 pm : link
I can say that while I appreciate and somewhat respect the sentiment and idea put forth that students should plan for their future, I have to say - the legislators and education administrators who are pushing for this are missing the forest for the trees.

The problem isn't creating a mechanism to enter higher education or the workforce, it is adequately setting goals and expectations for students when they first walk in the doors of a high school - and adjusting the metrics by which high school counselors, teachers, principals and school districts are measured - namely college acceptance.

College retention, graduation and job placement should be the true measures of efficacy.

We have managed to brainwash our youth by telling them that the ultimate success of a high school student is to gain college acceptance. This is a metric used by students, educators and most problematic, parents. Parents don't want their kids to go to trade school, enter apprenticeship or work for a living out of high school. That gets in the way of personal pride and the notion of "success" that has been ingrained in our society. This cannot be understated.

High school counselors do an unbelievably poor job of helping students adequately explore options outside of the traditional pathway for young people. They do them a disservice by focusing on higher education and end up pigeon-holing students into a win or lose proposition.

Meanwhile, I know 19 year old Welders making $90,000 in six months and taking the rest of the year off. I know a Pipefitter in Louisiana who just turned 22 and made $110,000 working on a petrochem job on the Gulf - he just bought his first house, a brand new truck and is getting married to his high school sweetheart. It's stories like these that need to be told. There are a wealth of possibilities for students who are not college-bound for one reason or another.

But high school counselors, principals, administrators and school districts don't want to highlight the kids who successfully navigated high school and created a pathway to success that does not involve college. That is an absolute shame.

And the fish stinks from the head down. Our government has slowly eroded Career & Technical Education programs by decreasing funding, focusing on Common Core and in some cases de-funding programs altogether. This continues under the current administration (and the whole story is yet to be told based on initiatives talked about to include career readiness, infrastructure, manufacturing, etc).

This legislation is a ham-fisted attempt to address those students with seemingly no "plan" upon graduation. But the idea that graduation is somehow the "success" is where we've failed our young people. For that reason, as I said, I respect the sentiment in Illinois - but it's an ill-thought attempt to incentivize students for their futures.


(sorry for the length. TWSS)
Ridiculous  
trueblueinpw : 7/8/2017 9:54 pm : link
Public school policy reminds me of the quip, "men and nations behave wisely when they have exhausted all other resources.

I'm entirely convinced the problems with public education in America are made intractable by politics. Like healthcare, until the money is out of the elections, truly good ideas and real reform will be obstructed by those earning their living off the systems currently in place.

Good excuse for a press conference though.
RE: Speaking from a position of experience  
yatqb : 7/8/2017 11:23 pm : link
In comment 13523431 B in ALB said:
Quote:
I can say that while I appreciate and somewhat respect the sentiment and idea put forth that students should plan for their future, I have to say - the legislators and education administrators who are pushing for this are missing the forest for the trees.

The problem isn't creating a mechanism to enter higher education or the workforce, it is adequately setting goals and expectations for students when they first walk in the doors of a high school - and adjusting the metrics by which high school counselors, teachers, principals and school districts are measured - namely college acceptance.

College retention, graduation and job placement should be the true measures of efficacy.

We have managed to brainwash our youth by telling them that the ultimate success of a high school student is to gain college acceptance. This is a metric used by students, educators and most problematic, parents. Parents don't want their kids to go to trade school, enter apprenticeship or work for a living out of high school. That gets in the way of personal pride and the notion of "success" that has been ingrained in our society. This cannot be understated.

High school counselors do an unbelievably poor job of helping students adequately explore options outside of the traditional pathway for young people. They do them a disservice by focusing on higher education and end up pigeon-holing students into a win or lose proposition.

Meanwhile, I know 19 year old Welders making $90,000 in six months and taking the rest of the year off. I know a Pipefitter in Louisiana who just turned 22 and made $110,000 working on a petrochem job on the Gulf - he just bought his first house, a brand new truck and is getting married to his high school sweetheart. It's stories like these that need to be told. There are a wealth of possibilities for students who are not college-bound for one reason or another.

But high school counselors, principals, administrators and school districts don't want to highlight the kids who successfully navigated high school and created a pathway to success that does not involve college. That is an absolute shame.

And the fish stinks from the head down. Our government has slowly eroded Career & Technical Education programs by decreasing funding, focusing on Common Core and in some cases de-funding programs altogether. This continues under the current administration (and the whole story is yet to be told based on initiatives talked about to include career readiness, infrastructure, manufacturing, etc).

This legislation is a ham-fisted attempt to address those students with seemingly no "plan" upon graduation. But the idea that graduation is somehow the "success" is where we've failed our young people. For that reason, as I said, I respect the sentiment in Illinois - but it's an ill-thought attempt to incentivize students for their futures.


(sorry for the length. TWSS)


B, it's hard not to get political about the point I'm gonna make, but I'm gonna try.

In 2012and 2015 Obama pushed for huge increases in funding for vocational education. This was something the country needed; training for both HS and vocational college students so that they could learn marketable trades and make excellent livings w/o going to college. But of course it didn't get anywhere with Congress.
Link - ( New Window )
yat  
B in ALB : 7/8/2017 11:57 pm : link
The BO budget proposed during the last term was designed to fund the Perkins Basic State Grant program at around a Billion dollars to include approximately $5.4 million for Perkins Grants supporting career & technical education programs adhering to standards.

This funding mechanism supported the American Technical Training Fund that would provide grants for shortterm/accelerated job training programs in high-demand fields of occupation according to the BLS and other government measurables. The funding increase for career and tech ed provided technical assistance support for projects under ATTF only. This represented a difference in grant funding to individual states (and centric programs) in excess of $170 Million and limited opportunities to grow programs nationally.
It certainly is an interesting goal  
Matt M. : 7/9/2017 1:18 am : link
and well intentioned. I'd like to see how it is implemented.

In NYC, the goal is to make HS graduates "college and career ready". Except the focus is almost wholly on the college part, with career ready really piggybacking off of college. The reality is that there are many students who are not ready for college or will never be college material. But, that doesn't mean they are the hopeless lots they are made out to be. NYC used to have very good vocational HS. Now, the schools may still exist (Automotive, for example), but the most of the programs are gone. There should be a lot more invested in vocational/trade education in our public high schools.
B in ALB  
rmc3981 : 7/9/2017 8:54 am : link
Have not posted on BBI in years but wanted to let you know that I thought your post was one of the best I've ever read here. IMHO your viewpoints were dead on.
I think we should start a national culture shift  
Bill L : 7/9/2017 9:09 am : link
That almost has to start by convincing business, especially white collar business, that college is not the be all and end all for employment. In many, if not most, instances, it's irrelevant and can be replaced by workplace-specific training and life skills.. We've been sold a bill of good about college being for everyone.
Bill L  
bc4life : 7/9/2017 9:28 am : link
We really need to reexamine what a college education is supposed to accomplish and if it is designed to accomplish that goal. Give students the education they need.
Bill L  
bc4life : 7/9/2017 9:31 am : link
I don't know that we always thought college was for everyone. The difference was that prior to transitioning to a service economy, people who did not go to college could provide a good quality of life for their families, often equal or better than those who went to college.
It's all bullshit anyway  
Gary from The East End : Admin : 7/9/2017 9:43 am : link
If they were going to allocate more resources for counseling and guidance services and set up programs for kids who don't have clear goals or a path to follow, then I could see that this was a real effort to help grads find their way in the world. But, as far as I can tell, there's no extra money for any of that stuff, so it's another unfunded mandate.

In the end, everyone who academically qualifies for a diploma will get one. There will be plenty of ways to get around this or game the system. It's just going to be another piece of paper that guidance counselors are going to have to fill out.
RE: Speaking from a position of experience  
Britt in VA : 7/9/2017 9:53 am : link
In comment 13523431 B in ALB said:
Quote:
I can say that while I appreciate and somewhat respect the sentiment and idea put forth that students should plan for their future, I have to say - the legislators and education administrators who are pushing for this are missing the forest for the trees.

The problem isn't creating a mechanism to enter higher education or the workforce, it is adequately setting goals and expectations for students when they first walk in the doors of a high school - and adjusting the metrics by which high school counselors, teachers, principals and school districts are measured - namely college acceptance.

College retention, graduation and job placement should be the true measures of efficacy.

We have managed to brainwash our youth by telling them that the ultimate success of a high school student is to gain college acceptance. This is a metric used by students, educators and most problematic, parents. Parents don't want their kids to go to trade school, enter apprenticeship or work for a living out of high school. That gets in the way of personal pride and the notion of "success" that has been ingrained in our society. This cannot be understated.

High school counselors do an unbelievably poor job of helping students adequately explore options outside of the traditional pathway for young people. They do them a disservice by focusing on higher education and end up pigeon-holing students into a win or lose proposition.

Meanwhile, I know 19 year old Welders making $90,000 in six months and taking the rest of the year off. I know a Pipefitter in Louisiana who just turned 22 and made $110,000 working on a petrochem job on the Gulf - he just bought his first house, a brand new truck and is getting married to his high school sweetheart. It's stories like these that need to be told. There are a wealth of possibilities for students who are not college-bound for one reason or another.

But high school counselors, principals, administrators and school districts don't want to highlight the kids who successfully navigated high school and created a pathway to success that does not involve college. That is an absolute shame.

And the fish stinks from the head down. Our government has slowly eroded Career & Technical Education programs by decreasing funding, focusing on Common Core and in some cases de-funding programs altogether. This continues under the current administration (and the whole story is yet to be told based on initiatives talked about to include career readiness, infrastructure, manufacturing, etc).

This legislation is a ham-fisted attempt to address those students with seemingly no "plan" upon graduation. But the idea that graduation is somehow the "success" is where we've failed our young people. For that reason, as I said, I respect the sentiment in Illinois - but it's an ill-thought attempt to incentivize students for their futures.


(sorry for the length. TWSS)


I agree with your post other than that the high school counselors, or any staff at the high school, are doing a poor job with providing options. Their hands are tied just as everybody else is in education. Until the government gets their corrupt fingers out of the cookie jar, this will never end. We have career and vocational positions in my county that go unfilled because there is nobody left to teach them. All of the vocational teachers in my school get paid to teach six classes because we can't get enough teachers to fill the positions for the numbers of kids we have in the program. When I was in high school (mid nineties), every single high school in the county had an Auto Shop. Every school had an Auto Cad drawing program. An Electronics program. Woodshop. No more. Now kids are bused to one location in the county for a specialty center. It's not nearly enough supply to meet the demand, but hey, the dollars need to go to high stakes testing.

You said it yourself, the options are gone. What other options can they present them with? It's the government that's driven the agenda of college or bust. No Child Left Behind. Mainstreaming. Standardized Testing. All kids can be doctors and astronauts.

It's completely politically (and dollar) driven. You wanna real eye opener? Google Pearson testing and see how much money they make from the United States government to administer all of the standardized testing. And they're not even American based!! Not to mention the secrecy in which they prepare and administer the test.

The government has completely blown up American education. Been saying it on here for years.
B, forgive me, as I'm ill. Could you say more about your last post?  
yatqb : 7/9/2017 11:22 am : link
.
Yat  
B in ALB : 7/9/2017 12:41 pm : link
I guess the best way to put it is that despite an on-the-surface "increase", the money doesn't always get to programs in high area of need both internally and based on BLS/DOL projections and data.
RE: Speaking from a position of experience  
njm : 7/9/2017 2:01 pm : link
In comment 13523431 B in ALB said:
Quote:

But high school counselors, principals, administrators and school districts don't want to highlight the kids who successfully navigated high school and created a pathway to success that does not involve college. That is an absolute shame.


I think that this, at least partially, can be blamed on media that publishes ratings of HSs based primarily on college acceptance and parents.
RE: RE: Speaking from a position of experience  
njm : 7/9/2017 2:04 pm : link
In comment 13523482 yatqb said:
Quote:


B, it's hard not to get political about the point I'm gonna make, but I'm gonna try.

In 2012and 2015 Obama pushed for huge increases in funding for vocational education. This was something the country needed; training for both HS and vocational college students so that they could learn marketable trades and make excellent livings w/o going to college. But of course it didn't get anywhere with Congress. Link - ( New Window )


There are 50 states, 1 district and thousands of communities who should take the lead on that and who probably know what their needs are better than a bureaucrat in Washington.
RE: Yat  
yatqb : 7/9/2017 2:15 pm : link
In comment 13523678 B in ALB said:
Quote:
I guess the best way to put it is that despite an on-the-surface "increase", the money doesn't always get to programs in high area of need both internally and based on BLS/DOL projections and data.


Thanks, B.
RE: B in ALB  
B in ALB : 7/9/2017 2:16 pm : link
In comment 13523549 rmc3981 said:
Quote:
Have not posted on BBI in years but wanted to let you know that I thought your post was one of the best I've ever read here. IMHO your viewpoints were dead on.


Appreciate that pal.
whats wrong with being  
spike : 7/9/2017 3:23 pm : link
a Stay at home teenage dad or mom?
RE: Speaking from a position of experience  
Jay on the Island : 7/9/2017 5:03 pm : link
In comment 13523431 B in ALB said:
Quote:
I can say that while I appreciate and somewhat respect the sentiment and idea put forth that students should plan for their future, I have to say - the legislators and education administrators who are pushing for this are missing the forest for the trees.

The problem isn't creating a mechanism to enter higher education or the workforce, it is adequately setting goals and expectations for students when they first walk in the doors of a high school - and adjusting the metrics by which high school counselors, teachers, principals and school districts are measured - namely college acceptance.

College retention, graduation and job placement should be the true measures of efficacy.

We have managed to brainwash our youth by telling them that the ultimate success of a high school student is to gain college acceptance. This is a metric used by students, educators and most problematic, parents. Parents don't want their kids to go to trade school, enter apprenticeship or work for a living out of high school. That gets in the way of personal pride and the notion of "success" that has been ingrained in our society. This cannot be understated.

High school counselors do an unbelievably poor job of helping students adequately explore options outside of the traditional pathway for young people. They do them a disservice by focusing on higher education and end up pigeon-holing students into a win or lose proposition.

Meanwhile, I know 19 year old Welders making $90,000 in six months and taking the rest of the year off. I know a Pipefitter in Louisiana who just turned 22 and made $110,000 working on a petrochem job on the Gulf - he just bought his first house, a brand new truck and is getting married to his high school sweetheart. It's stories like these that need to be told. There are a wealth of possibilities for students who are not college-bound for one reason or another.

But high school counselors, principals, administrators and school districts don't want to highlight the kids who successfully navigated high school and created a pathway to success that does not involve college. That is an absolute shame.

And the fish stinks from the head down. Our government has slowly eroded Career & Technical Education programs by decreasing funding, focusing on Common Core and in some cases de-funding programs altogether. This continues under the current administration (and the whole story is yet to be told based on initiatives talked about to include career readiness, infrastructure, manufacturing, etc).

This legislation is a ham-fisted attempt to address those students with seemingly no "plan" upon graduation. But the idea that graduation is somehow the "success" is where we've failed our young people. For that reason, as I said, I respect the sentiment in Illinois - but it's an ill-thought attempt to incentivize students for their futures.


(sorry for the length. TWSS)

That was a remarkable, honest post.
Britt  
B in ALB : 7/9/2017 5:41 pm : link
I don't mean to generalize all counselors as being poor at their jobs - that's not my intention. But I can tell you that I've presented to well over 1000 HS counselors over the last few years at conferences, Department of Education meetings, school board meetings, etc, and without fail a number of them will come up to me afterwards with astonished looks on their faces and comments that they "had no idea opportunities" existed like the ones I talk about. And that doesn't count the emails I get from audience members.

Some of these counselors aren't talking to students about topics like debt load, non-traditional occupations for young women, the importance of general and soft skills from a workforce readiness standpoint, employment in areas of need in the American economy, etc. Not to mention the myriad opportunities in the workforce - outside the realm of higher education - offering an unbelievable chance to earn a great living and contribute to society. And I'm not completely blaming them - it's not completely their fault.

I know young people graduating from college a couple hundred grand in the hole, with no real marketable skills, who become mal-employed. This means they're working outside their field of study or simply not working at all. This accounts for about 36% of four-year Higher Ed graduates. That's a disturbing number.

So here they are - with a piece of paper - $200,000 in debt, living at home, a dead-end job and a bleak outlook. It's enough to drive someone mad. They aren't contributing to society, they are woefully behind the earnings curve of their peers, etc - making it more difficult to establish credit, buy a home, get married, contribute as a tax-paying citizen, etc. They end up calling me and I can't hire them because they don't have any experience!

This brainwashing that I mentioned in my first post is an epidemic. It is ruining the lives of young people by the thousands (sorry to sound dramatic, but it's true) every year.
You mean I could've stayed in high school until age 30?  
SHO'NUFF : 7/9/2017 10:30 pm : link
With absolutely no responsibilities, while smoking weed everyday? Where do I sign up?
B..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 7/10/2017 8:27 am : link
awesome post.

Having been in several countries where the apprenticeship programs are strong, we have a lot of hurdles to clear in pushing that way of career development, and funding is really a small part of it:

Quote:
High school counselors do an unbelievably poor job of helping students adequately explore options outside of the traditional pathway for young people. They do them a disservice by focusing on higher education and end up pigeon-holing students into a win or lose proposition.

Meanwhile, I know 19 year old Welders making $90,000 in six months and taking the rest of the year off. I know a Pipefitter in Louisiana who just turned 22 and made $110,000 working on a petrochem job on the Gulf - he just bought his first house, a brand new truck and is getting married to his high school sweetheart. It's stories like these that need to be told. There are a wealth of possibilities for students who are not college-bound for one reason or another.


Culturally we need to change as well. I'm not going to make the blanket statement that entitlement runs rampant, but it goes deeper than that. In Germany, you have color-coded uniforms for certain roles. Blue might be for manufacturing people, green for delivery drivers, etc. I don't think as a society, it would sit well to have people "forced" to fit in like that. People don't look at the trade industry from a wage aspect, they have an aversion to it because they consider it to be beneath them in ways - or the result of a failure that you didn't progress through the educational system as intended.

"Dirty Jobs" was a fantastic show because it highlighted that if you're willing to get "dirty", you can not only make a buck, but you're useful and productive.

I just don't think American parents are ready to accept that Little Johnny is grading out to be a tradesman, or that their child will be best suited to enter the military and learn a craft and discipline. Until it stops being considered a failure to not proceed with higher education, this gap will exist, funding or not.

There are a lot of kids who aren't booksmart, but they have an affinity of working with their hands or having the strength to do strenuous jobs. Instead of encouraging them to utilize those strengths, we belittle them for not having sharp minds.
Tradesman who owns his own company  
spike : 7/10/2017 10:02 am : link
Is better off than the mid level cubicle career office guy
People are ignoring the problem that at 18  
Ron Johnson 30 : 7/10/2017 10:09 am : link
many kids have no idea what they want to do with their life. This measure seems very heavy handed to me.
RE: Tradesman who owns his own company  
Cam in MO : 7/10/2017 10:19 am : link
In comment 13524160 spike said:
Quote:
Is better off than the mid level cubicle career office guy


Lol. Tradesman that works an hourly wage is going to make more money than the mid-level cubicle career office guy and never have to worry about having a job. Electricians, PLC techs, fabricators, and plumbers to name a few make way over the median income. And since there are relatively few of them, they are pretty much always in demand.

RE: People are ignoring the problem that at 18  
jcn56 : 7/10/2017 11:28 am : link
In comment 13524165 Ron Johnson 30 said:
Quote:
many kids have no idea what they want to do with their life. This measure seems very heavy handed to me.


While true, nobody would force them to spend the rest of their lives engaging the skill that they pick up in that extra year. Meanwhile, it would probably go a long way towards preventing going aimlessly into adulthood without the marketable skills needed to at least provide a decent standard of living for themselves.

Look at the flipside - it seems like this is heavy handed and unfair of government to force students to taken an extra year of schooling, but from the other perspective the cost of educating these students will go up dramatically. In an environment where young adults pay through the nose for education, they should take whatever they can get for free and run with it.
FMiC  
B in ALB : 7/10/2017 4:45 pm : link
I was going to mention Germany as the model for apprenticeship training and workforce pathways. So thank you for that - great points.

And as far as students "not knowing what they want to do at 18 years old" - that's a huge issue, but perhaps not in the way that the poster intended. Their accessibility to information, testimonials, examples of success, etc in the workforce outside the traditional educational pathway is very limited - especially from certain counselors, teachers and programs.

Teachers should be held accountable for connecting their students with opportunities to engage business owners, hiring authorities and employers.
RE: FMiC  
Dan in the Springs : 7/10/2017 4:49 pm : link
In comment 13524627 B in ALB said:
Quote:

Teachers should be held accountable for connecting their students with opportunities to engage business owners, hiring authorities and employers.


Good stuff B - although if it comes down to teachers being the ones responsible for doing this we won't get as far as we'd like. In my experience, teachers just don't have as many contacts outside of education as they should to be able to do this well.

Furthermore, teachers tend to give extra help to the students who work for it. This would then give an extra leg up to students who work their relationships with their teachers, further handicapping students who are completely apathetic in H.S. Unfortunately, many of these students already come with limited access to community resources (fewer familial connections to industry insiders, etc.)
RE: RE: FMiC  
B in ALB : 7/10/2017 4:54 pm : link
In comment 13524633 Dan in the Springs said:
Quote:
In comment 13524627 B in ALB said:


Quote:



Teachers should be held accountable for connecting their students with opportunities to engage business owners, hiring authorities and employers.



Good stuff B - although if it comes down to teachers being the ones responsible for doing this we won't get as far as we'd like. In my experience, teachers just don't have as many contacts outside of education as they should to be able to do this well.

Furthermore, teachers tend to give extra help to the students who work for it. This would then give an extra leg up to students who work their relationships with their teachers, further handicapping students who are completely apathetic in H.S. Unfortunately, many of these students already come with limited access to community resources (fewer familial connections to industry insiders, etc.)


I've seen it firsthand, Dan. A business owner rolls up in his brand new pickup truck (and I always suggest they attach either their bass boat or motorcycle trailer to the back) and starts talking about money and opportunity - kid's eyes light up and the light bulb finally shines. It's an amazing experience.

I know hundreds of teachers who reach out to local employers. Unfortunately, many are too apathetic or disenchanted - or their classrooms have become dumping grounds for the discipline cases and teaching has devolved into baby sitting. Very sad.
In my community...  
Dan in the Springs : 7/10/2017 5:08 pm : link
we have much more success than most at getting students into trades. In fact, we really suck at getting kids into college. Many of our students are doing well in trades however.

One of the interesting BLS stats from a couple years back was that the median income for a plumber was higher than for a general practitioner.

We have a very, very good tech program in our district, but it is tough for kids to get into if they aren't keeping up their other grades.

In my school (alternative) we had a teacher join us a couple years back who is outstanding. She put together a field trip for our alternative students every fall to visit employers and learn about high-paying jobs in our community that don't require a college education. It's been very good for our school. Having said that - in almost every visit we make they say the same things - get good at your math because you're going to need it.

Some of the most popular trades among the students are welders and linesmen. The students are often surprised to hear employers telling their students that learning algebra is probably the most important thing they can be doing to prepare for a career in welding.

We also do a good job of getting the military recruiters out to our schools, but many of the students perform really poorly on the ASVAB and their options are very much limited by that. I try to tell them to take it seriously, but overcoming apathy is obviously one of our biggest challenges.

In my experience most successful learning happens for these kids AFTER they get the entry-level jobs they want. That's when they come back and ask me questions about formulas they have to use, etc.
Dan  
B in ALB : 7/11/2017 6:39 pm : link
that's great to hear that you guys are ahead of the curve. Well done!

And great point about math. That's another thing that counselors and parents don't understand - a pipefitter or electrician or E&I tech has to do a ton of math in order to be proficient in their trade. It's not about some lug hauling sacks of ready-mix or throwing cinderblocks off a demo'd building. Much more to these types of jobs than meets the eye.
I watched a commercial today  
ctc in ftmyers : 7/11/2017 10:43 pm : link
of a young girl working in a machine shop working a drill a drill press looking at a Rosie the riveter and the slogan "Yes we can". Then she goes to an online collage and becomes citified medical records secretary. Changes the slogan to "Yea I did".

Problem is, it is a step down.
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