said that a main issue for griffin was he wanted Houston removed as Assistant GM. Pathetic that we said no to that. Go forbid a new GM gets to bring in his own assistant. Bad enough he would be saddled with Mills as president. Just give Houston some other job. So we want to bring in a new GM, but he cant pick his top assistant (and who knows how many other Dolan cronies have to stay) and probably wont get final say on decisions, that of course will be the great combo of Mills/Dolan.
He simply says that it's hard for the Knicks/Rockets to do a 1 on 1 trade & that they're looking for a 3rd team. That's where it's been the last couple of days,whether it's the Trail blazers,Suns or another team!So it's not just Knicks/Rockets!
and I look forward to having a team with a different vibe and "leadership", but I'm not trading him if we are going to be stuck with bad contracts. I don't expect a big return, but is it too much to ask to get some decent asset(s) without taking back bad contracts?
and I look forward to having a team with a different vibe and "leadership", but I'm not trading him if we are going to be stuck with bad contracts. I don't expect a big return, but is it too much to ask to get some decent asset(s) without taking back bad contracts?
Agree with this. I'd rather get a draft pick (even though it likely will be bottom of round) than another bad contract
On the one hand, he needs to go and everyone knows it.
On the other hand, Houston has some assets of decent value and lost in the Phil Jackson soap opera is that a happy and motivated Carmelo Anthony can still play at a very high level.
With what Golden State has put together and how Boston has improved I'm surprised LeBron and Cleveland havent been more aggressively pursuing him.
i just dont want them to take on contracts that are worse then Melo's like Anderson or Turner or something. Im not taking back deals like that just to get Hartenstein. Id rather trade him to CLE for Shumpert, Frye and Jefferson or something. At least Frye and shumpert are expirings, assuming shump opts out.
hysterical/ridiculous thing to come out of all of the nonsense over the last few days:
Quote:
made the decision to sign Atlanta Hawks guard Tim Hardaway Jr. to a four-year, $71 million contract, a move that has been met with shock inside and outside the organization.
the Knicks to get anything impressive out of a Melo trade because the Knicks exist at a constant level of extreme dysfunction. At this point, I just hope the trade goes through because I want to see Melo on a real team with talent around him and an excellent guard facilitator.
would be like Harkless, Leonard, Qi, and Hartenstein. And i doubt we get our best case scenario. Plus im not really sure why POR does that. Although Anderson is a much better player then Harkless and leonard so i guess its not that crazy for them.
Not much else to say about this team. They keep employing GMs with no GM experience. It's like a company continuing hiring CFOs without accounting expierence and wondering why there finances aren't in order.
Mills is a businessman not a basketball guy. It's insane to be letting him run things. The Hardaway signing was 100% about impressing Dolan. I actually respect Griff more now for refusing to cave.
his reason for taking his name out of the mix. Now we can stop scapegoating Phil Jackson and turn our attention to the real reason the Knicks have been so bad for so long - Dolan and his kiss-ass chorus. At this point, it's probably best to let Mills and Houston have all the power and watch them fail, rather than letting them continue to lurk in the shadows.
his reason for taking his name out of the mix. Now we can stop scapegoating Phil Jackson and turn our attention to the real reason the Knicks have been so bad for so long - Dolan and his kiss-ass chorus. At this point, it's probably best to let Mills and Houston have all the power and watch them fail, rather than letting them continue to lurk in the shadows.
it just sucks becauae there are some young pieces on this team...
his reason for taking his name out of the mix. Now we can stop scapegoating Phil Jackson and turn our attention to the real reason the Knicks have been so bad for so long - Dolan and his kiss-ass chorus. At this point, it's probably best to let Mills and Houston have all the power and watch them fail, rather than letting them continue to lurk in the shadows.
yeah - good for Griffin for not selling out and coming here looking to half-ass it and collect a check like Phil did.
It's scary that a guy like Mills is currently running things. He has no business running the basketball side of an NBA team. He wouldn't even get an interview at any of the other teams.
Nowhere. Okay we missed out on Griffin but the reasoning is why this team will be at the bottom of the barrel for the next 10+ years. I am still a Knicks fan, always will be.. but I refuse to support this team financially. No more shall I go to the 10 or so Knicks games I go to each season and no more will I buy merch.
his reason for taking his name out of the mix. Now we can stop scapegoating Phil Jackson and turn our attention to the real reason the Knicks have been so bad for so long - Dolan and his kiss-ass chorus. At this point, it's probably best to let Mills and Houston have all the power and watch them fail, rather than letting them continue to lurk in the shadows.
yeah - good for Griffin for not selling out and coming here looking to half-ass it and collect a check like Phil did.
It's scary that a guy like Mills is currently running things. He has no business running the basketball side of an NBA team. He wouldn't even get an interview at any of the other teams.
this is the part that sucks, no one who is worth a damn is coming to share basketball decisions with mills, no one...
in the end i bet they lromote houston with mills running the show...
in all of this? Haven't even heard the guy's name mentioned anywhere since Phil got canned.
FWIW, NYT's beat writer Mike Vorkunov (new this year) said in his brief blurb in Monday's edition that Leiweke is advising the Knicks on their GM search. Just that statement, no quotes or any other amplification. I had been wondering the same. Then again, what difference does it make if he is giving the "right" advice to this organization? lol
Of the top 50 salaries, I will say that I'd rather pay
Dwight Howard 2/23mm
Harrison Barnes 3/23mm
Chandler Parsons 3/24mm
Steven Adams 4/25mm
Nic Batum 4/25mm
Vic Olidipo 4/22mm
Ryan Anderson 3/21mm
Allan Crabbe 3/19mm
Wesley Matthews 2/19mm
have been talking up Hartenstein for a while now. Before he has some back soreness/concerns he looked like a solid grab as early as low 20's (if we added another pick for Lee). That said, this is the kind of kid that needs strong player development and coaching. He just turned 19 and has dings for inconsistent motor and being a bit of a dickhead. He's nowhere near ready to help an NBA team and he needs to play. If we somehow land him I hope we leave him in Europe.
you will find someone, maybe the suns help, and the rockets throw them a pick?
maybe nets help and rockets throw them a pick...
i am sure they can find a team, good news is rockets and knicks are working together to make this work, which tells me knicks and rockets have their part done, just need a team to take anderson
if CLE really wanted Melo id be willing to trade Melo and Noah to them for expirings and Thompson. Thompson has to have more value around the league then Anderson so you get a third team to take Thompson and throw in some youth. So you dump Noah in the deal and get back whatever you can for Thompson, and dont take back any crappy contracts. But since Noah looked so crappy there is no way CLE would want to create that huge hole at center.
Are the Knicks the worst organization in professional sports history?
Greg from LI : 9:03 am : link : reply
Ever? In any sport?
You have some franchises that haven't even tasted success and have been run terribly for long stretches. The Clippers, the Jags, the Expos/Nats, etc.
The Knicks might be the worst organization currently, but even that is debatable. They've at least made the postseason recently. Tell that to some of the hockey franchises that are stuck in the basement, or to the Bills, Browns and Titans.
Even teams like the Indians and Astros who are doing well now had periods like the Giants did in the 70's.
The NBA, with the emphasis on top-heavy teams demolishing the also-rans will make it look a lot worse, too. The Knicks are a poorly run franchise with a clueless owner, but they aren't unique in that aspect.
I love the people posting all the bad contracts to make the Hardaway deal seem better. You want to avoid those deals not emulate them. And Mills isn't trading Lee and Melo for picks and expirings.
The Knicks are going to come out of this offseason with a completely capped situation for years to come. After trading Melos monster salary. Instead of signing THJ, why not take Andersen back and get all the assets instead of involving a 3rd team?
signed an interesting looking American player who was playing in Europe named Mike James (different guy). In highlights he looks like fun, great athlete etc.
is that Mills is the one negotiating this trade. The Knicks are going to end up with a bad contract like Turner without getting Qi or anything of value.
says cavs are offering Cedi Osman and bench vets for melo. So basically what you would think (shump, frye, Jefferson) and Osman. Knicks supposedly do not want the vets (shocking). Not exactly earth shattering stuff, but figured id pass along. I know zero about osman.
is that Mills is the one negotiating this trade. The Knicks are going to end up with a bad contract like Turner without getting Qi or anything of value.
Steve Mills vs Daryl Morey. What could go wrong?
Side note- since Morey was hired in 2007 the Knicks have had 6 GMs.
I hope for a team that can move the ball around and play together.
Next year is a tank year and hope some how the little white balls bounce in our favor.
Porter would be a nice fit next to Porzingis and Willy.
from being relevant. They will be terrible in 2017 and get a top pick for 2018 which will go to Boston. The Nets will be terrible again in 2018 and should get a good pick in 2019. You hope whoever they draft in 2019 hits and they should get another good pick in 2020. They better hope they hit on those 2 and hope that in 2021 they are relevant. In between now and then, they aren't getting any real superstars to sign there.
are not horrible. You would think you could spin them to someone for some youth, a euro stash, 2nd rounders, etc... They arent bad players and with contracts getting absurd they really dont make that much. Plus they are expirings.
RE: I used to say set your expectations at the bare minimum
metrics like Big Walter (in admitted VERY limited minutes), he played well in the Dleague 11 and 7 with 3 blocks and he's 25 years old and 7'3 so even if he's just a huge slug we could do worse. Link - ( New Window )
I don't mind that we didn't end up with Griffin as the GM, it is hard to evaluate the job that he did in Cleveland because so much of it revolved around Lebron. If Lebron doesn't return to the Cavs then who knows what would have happened there.
The issue is that this is the sign of a bigger problem. Either they weren't all that enamored with Griffin, which if that's the case why get as far into the process as they did, or Mills is seizing this opportunity to make a serious power play and we aren't going to be able to find a GM with any type of track record that is going to agree to coming in to answer to Steve Mills.
At this point we might be better off just letting Mills and Houston run the show, and if they fail then we can finally be rid of them and start to see real change. Who knows, maybe Mills will surprise us and do a good job. He has taken a lot of heat because of his close connection to Dolan, but we really don't know what type of job he will do as the head executive. He had a short stint before Phil arrived where he basically didn't do anything of note for 6 months. He was the one in charge when we almost dealt Shumpert and spare parts to Toronto for Lowry, which would have been a great move, but then Dolan vetoed it at the last second.
Even with the Hardaway contract, which I don't think is as terrible as others have made it seem, if we can walk away from this offseason with a new core of a PG, SG, PF, and C all under the age of 25 while also having gotten rid of Carmelo and Derrick Rose, then I would rate the offseason as a success. We now at least have a young nucleus with all of our draft picks going forward, and a roster that while filled with potential, isn't going to win shit this year and should put us in the top 5-6 picks in next years draft.
Make them give Gordon, who will go to a 3rd team to get assets back for NYK. Or no Melo. Stop trying to come up with ways to get Melo on to other teams for no pain.
The only reason I'd just dump Melo is if they intended to tank, and I dont believe that they have that intent. I think they'll put Melo's money back into vets who will help this team win an extra 5-10 games.
sounds like an awful plan (no offense). Let them fail and hope Dolan cans them? He's kept Zeke around off and on for over a decade. The one thing you have to give Dolan "credit" for is he's beyond loyal to his guys. The Knicks have been a disaster for years now and yet guys like Houston and Mills have kept their jobs. Dolan isn't firing either one of them for "not winning".
Why is that jsports guy used as a valid source so often. All he did was tweet that melo is going to the rockets. He's got a 50/50 shot of it happening. Everyone already knows that it's either cavs or rockets and there's been nothing going on as of late with the cavs so he tweets. Melo to the rockets and gives absolutely zero details. What makes him better than incarcerated bob
really clear why we should believe this guy but the guy linked claims the Knicks will be getting Harkness and a #1 (again I don't believe him even 1% but people are retweeting him) Link - ( New Window )
Why is that jsports guy used as a valid source so often. All he did was tweet that melo is going to the rockets. He's got a 50/50 shot of it happening. Everyone already knows that it's either cavs or rockets and there's been nothing going on as of late with the cavs so he tweets. Melo to the rockets and gives absolutely zero details. What makes him better than incarcerated bob
really clear why we should believe this guy but the guy linked claims the Knicks will be getting Harkness and a #1 (again I don't believe him even 1% but people are retweeting him) Link - ( New Window )
really clear why we should believe this guy but the guy linked claims the Knicks will be getting Harkness and a #1 (again I don't believe him even 1% but people are retweeting him) Link - ( New Window )
Wrong link
No that's his website which is why I linked it. He said exactly what I said, that Melo was going to Houston and the Knicks were getting Harkness and a 1st.
Steven Tsakanikas @SteveTsak 19m19 minutes ago
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Replying to @SteveTsak
Update: I'm told it's a 3-team deal involving Portland and that Moe Harkless and a 1st rounder are headed to NY in the trade.
Not watching, but apparently Begley reported on SportsCenter
that Dolan is open to a new guy and Mills is trying to prove that a new guy isn't needed. This is indeed a Steve Mills power play. Dolan should channel Leo from "Miller's Crossing" and tell him to take his flunkie (Allan Houston) and dangle.
RE: Not watching, but apparently Begley reported on SportsCenter
that Dolan is open to a new guy and Mills is trying to prove that a new guy isn't needed. This is indeed a Steve Mills power play. Dolan should channel Leo from "Miller's Crossing" and tell him to take his flunkie (Allan Houston) and dangle.
Well who is the fucking boss.
Show some balls for a change Jimmy
RE: RE: Not watching, but apparently Begley reported on SportsCenter
that Dolan is open to a new guy and Mills is trying to prove that a new guy isn't needed. This is indeed a Steve Mills power play. Dolan should channel Leo from "Miller's Crossing" and tell him to take his flunkie (Allan Houston) and dangle.
Well who is the fucking boss.
Show some balls for a change Jimmy
Based on the Phil firing press release, Dolan wants it known that he's not really involved. Which opens a power vacuum for Mills, who knows that Dolan will want him to stay to look over things, rather than just turning everything over to an outsider.
if the consultant tells you 'hey, hire this guy' and you piss him off to the point where he removes himself from consideration?
This is why I'll never hold PJ 100% accountable for the mess he left. I highly doubt that he ever had full control with both Mills and Houston here. Given his half-in/half-out status, he probably had a great deal of control over basketball decisions but was undermined by the other two plenty.
RE: Not watching, but apparently Begley reported on SportsCenter
that Dolan is open to a new guy and Mills is trying to prove that a new guy isn't needed. This is indeed a Steve Mills power play. Dolan should channel Leo from "Miller's Crossing" and tell him to take his flunkie (Allan Houston) and dangle.
what's odd is that Mills met with Griffin - which seems to indicate Mills is part of the hiring process for either his replacement or his own boss or his own employee. It's a fucking mess.
and was willing to give Mills and Houston something to do. Kudos to Griffin for understanding it may be career suicide. He's a young-ish guy with plenty of opportunities left.
pulling his name has worked out rather well for him. The media is praising him and laughing at the knicks(righfully so). Griffin has come out of this with his name looking better than it was.
none. They could have a good year here and there like the 54 win season from a few seasons back but there will never be any sustained run of greatness or even consistent play. Nothing grows here. Nothing will ever grow here. Just sad. I am the eternal optimist with my teams but always color things with realistic tones. I can't take this franchise anymore.
Yet another indication that Dolan is the root of the Knicks' problems
they need to get a 1st rounder out of it but not next years they should look for an unprotected 2020-2022 1st rounder when some the stars on either team begin to rapidly decline similar to what Boston did with the Nets.
and was willing to give Mills and Houston something to do. Kudos to Griffin for understanding it may be career suicide. He's a young-ish guy with plenty of opportunities left.
Yeah I think Mills reported to Phil on all basketball stuff. An old fart like Phil could use a guy like Mills to run the scouts, do initial trade calls etc. I dont think Mills or Dolan really stood in Phil's way on basketball stuff, until the very end with Melo/KP. Though it would be interesting to know whether Rose and Noah were 100% Phil's doing, or whether there was some ownership pressure on those deals.
This seems like a different situation with Phil out. Sounds like Mills wants to be (or just will be) the boss of who they bring in.
and was willing to give Mills and Houston something to do. Kudos to Griffin for understanding it may be career suicide. He's a young-ish guy with plenty of opportunities left.
Yeah I think Mills reported to Phil on all basketball stuff. An old fart like Phil could use a guy like Mills to run the scouts, do initial trade calls etc. I dont think Mills or Dolan really stood in Phil's way on basketball stuff, until the very end with Melo/KP. Though it would be interesting to know whether Rose and Noah were 100% Phil's doing, or whether there was some ownership pressure on those deals.
This seems like a different situation with Phil out. Sounds like Mills wants to be (or just will be) the boss of who they bring in.
You know how this works, though. There's different types of interference/getting in the way.
One is having authority as an approver. I highly doubt Mills ever jumped in and said 'I don't want to do this'.
The other is by having direct or indirect control over staff. Who knows how many times Jackson's directions or information going up to him were altered by Mills being in the chain.
Someone needed to go in and purge MSG of all it's MSG-ness. That's not happening with Mills and Houston there. Yes, this is all Dolan's doing, no question. But you can't say 'hey, Dolan's been hands off, look at the Rangers' when Mills and Houston remain long time constants there. If he's really going to be hands off, it means that organization has to be swept clean and new blood brought in, with the autonomy to make decisions for good or bad.
Griffin saw and recognized that, and wanted no part of MSG once it was clear they had no intentions of changing their SOP.
How they are a successful franchise while the Knicks arent?
What has Dolan done, or not done with the Rangers that allows them to be successful, while the Knicks continue to suck?
I dont think Dolan was ever hands on with the Rangers... You dont hear much of anything with Dolan and Hockey... Seems to me that he is leaning that way towards the basketball end of it now, but he built up too many loyal friends in the process and wont cut bait now.
He's 5 years in and seems to have settled into a career that shows he is a solid defender, average finisher and below average statistical performer in other areas i.e. passing, perimeter shooting.
Do you agree with this thumbnail sketch?
Is he regarded as a good locker room guy? Decent bball IQ?
If given the choice, do you think Al Farooq Aminu is the better player to target?
And we have to watch a bag of shit team, everyone will then wish we had him back (or someone who can score). Yes Mo qualifies as a bag of shit. Late 1st rounders suck as some of you argue #8 shouldn't play over Sasha or Baker. And yes to the above poster, the Nets will be better faster.
And we have to watch a bag of shit team, everyone will then wish we had him back (or someone who can score). Yes Mo qualifies as a bag of shit. Late 1st rounders suck as some of you argue #8 shouldn't play over Sasha or Baker. And yes to the above poster, the Nets will be better faster.
And we have to watch a bag of shit team, everyone will then wish we had him back (or someone who can score). Yes Mo qualifies as a bag of shit. Late 1st rounders suck as some of you argue #8 shouldn't play over Sasha or Baker. And yes to the above poster, the Nets will be better faster.
or they suck get a top pick and add more to their young team...
Dolan just stays out of the Rangers' affairs. That's why they've been free of the Jimmy D stench that has been all over the Knicks for what feels like forever now.
I don't think Dolan really cares about hockey at all - it's the Knicks that are his baby. The Rangers are just like that step child he doesn't really care about - which is obviously great for the Rangers.
RE: RE: Are the Knicks the worst organization in professional sports history?
Dolan just stays out of the Rangers' affairs. That's why they've been free of the Jimmy D stench that has been all over the Knicks for what feels like forever now.
I don't think Dolan really cares about hockey at all - it's the Knicks that are his baby. The Rangers are just like that step child he doesn't really care about - which is obviously great for the Rangers.
Exactly. Unfortunately for Knicks fans, Dolan likes basketball.
How they are a successful franchise while the Knicks arent?
What has Dolan done, or not done with the Rangers that allows them to be successful, while the Knicks continue to suck?
Sather was in place much earlier in Dolan's tenure. Sather and Phil are both huge, winning names, and I think both got total deference from Dolan. Sather had executive experience and also never picked fights in public like Phil did this year. So he got a lot more rope. After a few years and the institution of a salary cap, Sather realized that you cant spend your way to contention. I think Phil was getting to the same place by the way. Big differences as I see it:
1) Sather had more room to grow into the job due to a more forgiving fan/media environment, plus he had extensive experience and was probably just a better exec than Phil. But in any event, by being there and stabilizing early in Dolan's tenure, Sather wasnt saddled with the hangers like Mills and Zeke and Houston;
2) It's easier to be a successful NHL exec IMO.
3) The Rangers drafted the best goalie of his generation in the 7th round in 2001, and he kept them competitive and selling tickets through the rough spots, i.e. when the Rangers had little talent. Imagine if Phil were here at a time when KP played like a top 10 player (occasional MVP candidate) and there was no risk that he'd leave -- Phil would have Sather's job security.
4) Sather did not see his job as an opportunity to prove that he was right about something (e.g. the Triangle). Indeed, he made several big adjustments. First, he came over believing that MSG's unlimited resources would let him buy a title team, and he adjusted when it didnt work and a cap came in. Second, he canned a successful coach in Torts when he observed that the more successful teams were playing a more open, offensive, speedy style.
There are other issues, but those are the biggies.
Dolan just stays out of the Rangers' affairs. That's why they've been free of the Jimmy D stench that has been all over the Knicks for what feels like forever now.
I don't think Dolan really cares about hockey at all - it's the Knicks that are his baby. The Rangers are just like that step child he doesn't really care about - which is obviously great for the Rangers.
Exactly. Unfortunately for Knicks fans, Dolan likes basketball.
Dolan likes hockey a lot too. If you believe him, he grew up more a Rangers fan than Knicks fan.
that Atlanta would have matched the THJ contract if it was around 4 years 62 to 65 mil. Who know's how true that is
I believe it. I think we "overpaid" by a few million per season. Yeah, the great teams can get guys way below market value, but THJR's deal is pretty justifiable when compared to other young wings. We cant. We have to overpay a bit. I can live with that now. THJR's deal ends when KP's 6th season ends. That's the earliest I see us really having a shot to win a playoff round. I'd say we cant afford any overpays starting around Summer 2019 if we're on track. And if we are, we shouldnt need to overpay.
Does Mills want to make another big move to show the world who runs the team? Supposedly Dolan continues to be fond of Melo. And I find it hard to believe that Mills gives a crap what Hornacek thinks.
if we got Capela and Hartenstein, but HOU isnt trading capela. I think the question at this point is if you take on Anderson if you get Qi AND hartenstein. I dont think i do, but that is probably the right question at this point.
1)Prior to the 2004 lockout, Sather had been about as successful with the Rangers as PJax was with the Knicks. The Rangers were loaded with overpaid has-beens and washed up former stars in those days: Eric Lindros, Theoren Fleury, Bobby Holik, Darius Kasparitis, Stephane Quintal, etc etc etc. The lockout allowed a massive buyout of old contracts, cleared out a lot of the deadweight.
2)Prior to the salary cap coming on board post-lockout, they were able to pick up the disgruntled Jagr, who appeared to be declining, and his huge contract for pennies on the dollar. That proved to be an enormous boost as Jagr quickly proved that he was still a superstar by setting Rangers' single-season scoring records in 2005-06.
3)While I'm not a big Glen Sather fan, if you're going to have a crony, he's a damned sight better than Steve Mills and Allan Houston.
And we have to watch a bag of shit team, everyone will then wish we had him back (or someone who can score). Yes Mo qualifies as a bag of shit. Late 1st rounders suck as some of you argue #8 shouldn't play over Sasha or Baker. And yes to the above poster, the Nets will be better faster.
We've had to watch a bag of shit team WITH Carmelo. So: no.
And we have to watch a bag of shit team, everyone will then wish we had him back (or someone who can score). Yes Mo qualifies as a bag of shit. Late 1st rounders suck as some of you argue #8 shouldn't play over Sasha or Baker. And yes to the above poster, the Nets will be better faster.
or they suck get a top pick and add more to their young team...
This. The Nets are absolutely making better decisions than the Knicks but they'll need a lot to go right to overtake the Knicks in a few years time. The Knicks will have a high pick again to add to their stable of young guys with upside and Harkless is a 25 year old with the arrow pointing up. If he was a FA he'd be in high demand and he's on a very favorable contract (Leonard would cancel that out but I'm hoping he's not coming here). You also can't praise the Nets while trashing late first round picks. The best thing Marks has done is get picks in the 20's for taking on bad contracts. Russell was a good low risk/high reward move for a team in their position but he's certainly shown no signs of having KP's upside...If teams around the league believed he was likely to become anything more than a decent NBA player the Lakers would've gotten more for him even with Mozgov's deal.
The amazing thing about all this is-- other than dealing Melo, Mills and the rest of his stable of clowns literally don't have to do anything to turn this team around. Get Harkless and a late first for Melo and you have 5 guys 25 and under who can grow together and get a top 6 pick next year they can add to that. If they still suck in a year after doing nothing, you get to draft again in the top 6. This isn't rocket science yet still everyone (myself included) is totally petrified that they'll try and win now by signing Rondo, eventually dealing picks for vets or to shed salary to sign guys at prices they have no business paying. It's incredible how stupid they are. This is nothing but common sense and even the dumbest fans know this should be the plan (excluding the Melo fan club who believe they shouldn't deal him because he's better than what they'll get). I'd love for them to dump Lee somewhere although that might be asking too much.
and Hartenstein aren't enough to take back Anderson (unless of course you have a deal lined up to spin Anderson). I think both are potential lottery tickets but neither one is even a guaranteed NBA contributor let alone star. Hartenstein was a mid-late 2nd rounder, teams likely could have had him for cash.
But I think he has given a lot of power to Gorton, Gordie and the scouts and I think that's created a winning culture the Knicks have not approached in decades.
I know he's a good player, and the advanced stats love him (21 PER, .184 WS48). But next offseason he's getting maxed. $25 million a year. Lets say in 30 minutes he's a 15/10/1.5 guy. Less of a PNR threat here with less of a lead guard. Foul rates suggest he possibly cant be a 35 minute a night center.
How excited is anyone here about maxing Capela? I'd happily do it if I was already a title competitor. But if your pieces are KP, Willy, Frank, THJR and future picks, is it wise to max Capela? I think there is not an obvious answer.
Though he probably won't want to come here and be one of Dolan's yes men
The Knicks lucking into someone like Zarren is the only hope we have. His "own guys" will still be with their respective teams and given that he's never been the GM before maybe he's willing to put up with it until he gains Dolan's trust and slowly but surely can bring in his own guys who eventually overtake the clown car. It's too much to hope for though, since it's looking more and more likely that Houston or Warkentien will be named the full time GM...
Is Zarren actually a candidate or is that just speculation?
It sucks but it's going to take a big name high profile person to convince Dolan to clean house and have ultimate power. I'm not sure who that person. I'm still holding out hope they find a way to get Ujiri.
Is Zarren actually a candidate or is that just speculation?
It sucks but it's going to take a big name high profile person to convince Dolan to clean house and have ultimate power. I'm not sure who that person. I'm still holding out hope they find a way to get Ujiri.
to do what the Celts are doing (which btw isnt necessarily getting them anywhere -- they still lack the #1 and #2 horses to contend for a title, and I dont think Tatum will be such a player in time either).
league is a binary situation where you are either a top 3 team and title contender or a zero. You'd need to look at the league through that prism to say the Celtics aren't going anywhere.
You can argue that the Celtics have a 50ish win floor set up for the next 7 or so years. They have young exciting talent everywhere and their fans can count on seeing good basketball and good players for a long time. There's a ton of value in that even if they never make the finals IMO.
Since it looks like Mills as President and they likley wont get anyone great coming in from the outside I would almost rather they promote Houston to the GM and see what he could do making the personnel decisions rather than Mills.
where they'll likely have a top 3 team in the Conference and still add a top 5 player in the following draft. Basically they have the chance to add a Tim Duncan to David Robinson without doing the tank...
Cleveland is still easily the 2nd best team in the league as long as LeBron is there.
The only other relevant teams that can potentially enter the stratosphere of either are Houston, OKC, San Antonio and Boston.
For Houston or Cleveland, Carmelo is an X factor. I think with Carmelo, Houston jumps ahead of Spurs and OKC as clear challenger to GS out west.
I'm not sure why Cleveland is not all over the Knicks about working out a deal for Anthony. Boston has closed some of the gap in my opinion, and I don't see a logical argument that this version of the Cavs can beat GS with KD.
It seems Carmelo can really shake up the NBA hierarchy.
Since it looks like Mills as President and they likley wont get anyone great coming in from the outside I would almost rather they promote Houston to the GM and see what he could do making the personnel decisions rather than Mills.
I agree... might as well....nothing to lose at this point..
Houston has zero coaching or scouting experience. He's on the payroll because he's friends with Jimmy D. I've heard off the record that Houston comes off "poorly" when discussing the game and Isola noted that Houston (while a great guy) is not viewed highly around the league as a potential GM. No thank you. I'd sooner rehire Zeke (not kidding either).
league is a binary situation where you are either a top 3 team and title contender or a zero. You'd need to look at the league through that prism to say the Celtics aren't going anywhere.
You can argue that the Celtics have a 50ish win floor set up for the next 7 or so years. They have young exciting talent everywhere and their fans can count on seeing good basketball and good players for a long time. There's a ton of value in that even if they never make the finals IMO.
I get all that. It's hard to hold it against an Ainge or any other GM that GSW managed to draft 3 Team USA Talents with a mid lottery, a mid/late lottery, and a #2, and then signed one of the top 5 players in the game as a UFA. Oh, and everyone is now willing to take massive hometown discounts.
are going bonkers over how good Tatum looks in summer league. Some are comparing his offensive upside to... Melo.
I like Tatum. I just dont think he's got it in him to be your #1 superstar. I feel/felt the same about Melo.
Deej,
To be clear I wasn't really disputing what you said (though I'd argue I'd rather be the Celtics than any other organization not named Warriors) over the next 3-5 years. I was just commenting on the massive buzz Tatum has right now.
heh....saw this in the comments at Posting and Toasting
gives you any indication Allan Houston would be a good hire? He's extremely close with the owner, his "role" has been GM of the Westchester Knicks which means outside of moves to fill the roster he's simply doing as the Knicks GM tells him to do. He's not signing FA, drafting college players or even working with other GM's on trades. He so highly thought of you never once have heard of another team trying to poach him. There is no scenario he's the best candidate (even in a world where we accept Mills as president). He'd be a puppet.
Houston has zero coaching or scouting experience. He's on the payroll because he's friends with Jimmy D. I've heard off the record that Houston comes off "poorly" when discussing the game and Isola noted that Houston (while a great guy) is not viewed highly around the league as a potential GM. No thank you. I'd sooner rehire Zeke (not kidding either).
agree with all those views and the rumblings on ah
The only benefit I see to promoting AH is that he's preventing NYK
from hiring a legit GM by his presence as mandatory assistant. So, Dolan should just give him the fucking job already rather than insist on him remaining in this position. If he succeeds, ok. If he fails, he gets fired and at least he's not in the way of the next guy.
To be clear, this scenario also completely sucks. It just sucks in a different way than trying to hire a legit GM into this dysfunction junction.
are going bonkers over how good Tatum looks in summer league. Some are comparing his offensive upside to... Melo.
I like Tatum. I just dont think he's got it in him to be your #1 superstar. I feel/felt the same about Melo.
Deej,
To be clear I wasn't really disputing what you said (though I'd argue I'd rather be the Celtics than any other organization not named Warriors) over the next 3-5 years. I was just commenting on the massive buzz Tatum has right now.
I think I'd rather be the Wolves or Sixers. I see a clearer title path for both of those teams. I think they have the potentials for having the #1 and #2 player on a title team. I think the Celts have interesting pieces to consistently win 55-60+ games and then lose to the Cavs/Warriors. And that is with resigning Thomas, which is a risk I think they wont take (better chance now with GH on board).
Yeah I've made this point before about Allan Houston...
He's been the assistant GM for a while now, and has been in the Knicks front office in one capacity or another for even longer. How come he hasn't gotten a whiff of a GM job? Has there ever been an interview request? The Nets were looking for a GM a couple of years back - what better way to stick it to their crosstown rivals than poaching a supposedly up-and-coming, bright basketball mind right out from under them? But no, he's just a "Dolan guy" cashing paychecks. It's one thing for Starks and LJ to be paid as ambassadors and trotted out for charitable causes, but to let Houston be involved in personnel? Gimme a freaking break.
Regarding the Celtics, I'd be underwhelmed if I were a Celts fan.
Brown and Tatum are not what I had in mind with these Brooklyn picks. The Nets have dodged the bullets so far - just get through one more year without handing the Celtics a superstar and the whole division can move on. I hope the Nets add another piece or two to get themselves out of the top five. If they want Ryan Anderson, I'm sure the Knicks and Rockets would happily oblige.
gives you any indication Allan Houston would be a good hire? He's extremely close with the owner, his "role" has been GM of the Westchester Knicks which means outside of moves to fill the roster he's simply doing as the Knicks GM tells him to do. He's not signing FA, drafting college players or even working with other GM's on trades. He so highly thought of you never once have heard of another team trying to poach him. There is no scenario he's the best candidate (even in a world where we accept Mills as president). He'd be a puppet.
Where did I say I felt he would be a good hire?
I am saying since it appears they can't get a good hire from the outside because Dolan is keeping his core group in power I would at this point rather see Houston given a shot than go backwards to Mills (or Thomas as you suggest).
gives you any indication Allan Houston would be a good hire? He's extremely close with the owner, his "role" has been GM of the Westchester Knicks which means outside of moves to fill the roster he's simply doing as the Knicks GM tells him to do. He's not signing FA, drafting college players or even working with other GM's on trades. He so highly thought of you never once have heard of another team trying to poach him. There is no scenario he's the best candidate (even in a world where we accept Mills as president). He'd be a puppet.
Where did I say I felt he would be a good hire?
I am saying since it appears they can't get a good hire from the outside because Dolan is keeping his core group in power I would at this point rather see Houston given a shot than go backwards to Mills (or Thomas as you suggest).
We already have had Mills/Houston in "positions of power". Houston being the GM would be the worst case scenario. At least if they hired someone internal but not previously "high up" this mystery man could conceivably come in and surprise with his previously unknown thoughts and beliefs. Maybe Walker Russell is that guy, maybe it's Kevin Wilson, maybe that guy doesn't exist but I sure as hell wouldn't bet on the status quo duo "surprising" us. If the Knicks fired Allan Houston tomorrow I'm sure he'd get some sort of role (he's an ex all-star, decent enough human being etc) but nobody is frothing at the mouth to hire Allan Houston as a decision maker.
I also think SOMEONE is going to accept the Knicks current set up either for the sweet cash, or the belief they can make it work (or both). Doesn't mean it will be the right guy but I'll still take my chances on Mr. Man X vs. Houston, again this mystery man at least will be a new voice.
We already have had Mills/Houston in "positions of power". Houston being the GM would be the worst case scenario. At least if they hired someone internal but not previously "high up" this mystery man could conceivably come in and surprise with his previously unknown thoughts and beliefs. Maybe Walker Russell is that guy, maybe it's Kevin Wilson, maybe that guy doesn't exist but I sure as hell wouldn't bet on the status quo duo "surprising" us. If the Knicks fired Allan Houston tomorrow I'm sure he'd get some sort of role (he's an ex all-star, decent enough human being etc) but nobody is frothing at the mouth to hire Allan Houston as a decision maker.
They've been in positions of power, but took Cris Carter's advice and made sure they had fall guys in place to take the blame when things went south. If/when they are named President and GM, at least they'll be no one left to blame when things go further south and maybe (doubtful) Dolan will finally get rid of those two.
yet to see any indication Dolan really cares about the Knicks actually being good. If they sell out the garden that's really all that matters and they have no real problem doing that because of corporate accounts, celebs etc. You guys really want to sit through 2+ years of Mills/Houston praying they are either shockingly good or prove they are so bad that we are trying again? I don't personally believe KP will leave as a FA but I wouldn't risk getting this close to the sun. Another really bad regime and yeah, I think he's a goner.
put it this way, WE care about the Knicks being title contenders. Dolan is high fiving Allan Houston and the 7 seed Knicks with Rondo/Melo/THjr etc. The Knicks can both win more games AND be a disaster. The owner cares about asses in the seats, nothing else.
You guys really want to sit through 2+ years of Mills/Houston praying they are either shockingly good or prove they are so bad that we are trying again?
Don't put words in my mouth, I prefer to have no part of that. But I did say:
Quote:
At this point
steve in ky : 1:17 pm : link : reply
Since it looks like Mills as President and they likley wont get anyone great coming in from the outside I would almost rather they promote Houston to the GM and see what he could do making the personnel decisions rather than Mills.
Surely you can see the distinction between that and wanting Mills/Houston
You guys really want to sit through 2+ years of Mills/Houston praying they are either shockingly good or prove they are so bad that we are trying again?
Don't put words in my mouth, I prefer to have no part of that. But I did say:
Quote:
At this point
steve in ky : 1:17 pm : link : reply
Since it looks like Mills as President and they likley wont get anyone great coming in from the outside I would almost rather they promote Houston to the GM and see what he could do making the personnel decisions rather than Mills.
Surely you can see the distinction between that and wanting Mills/Houston
I'm not looking to argue semantics but I fail to see what going with Houston does. You said "almost rather" and I'm suggesting this shouldn't be something anyone would "rather". He's unqualified. That's the long and short of it. Almost ANY other person they bring in will have a more impressive resume and maybe just maybe some interesting/new ideas.
yet to see any indication Dolan really cares about the Knicks actually being good. If they sell out the garden that's really all that matters and they have no real problem doing that because of corporate accounts, celebs etc. You guys really want to sit through 2+ years of Mills/Houston praying they are either shockingly good or prove they are so bad that we are trying again? I don't personally believe KP will leave as a FA but I wouldn't risk getting this close to the sun. Another really bad regime and yeah, I think he's a goner.
Oh, don't get me wrong. I completely agree with your take on things and that's likely how things play out with Houston/Mills leading the way. I'm just looking for a sliver of a silver lining for when those 2 "officially" take over.
Besides, I live in MN. It'll be easy for me to start rooting for the home town team! Hell, if Towns/Wiggins reach their "ceilings" they might even be the ones to knock the Warriors off their perch!
Houston and Mills wouldn't even be considered for an interview with another team let alone get another GM job. From ESPN -"Steve Mills is a prince of a guy," the source said, "but there isn't one other club in the league that would've hired him".
It's now all doom and gloom though. Warkentien is a former exec of the year ( not sure of his current role though), Mark Hughes and Kevin Wilson are well respected. But you have let your GM/ President pick his own staff.
Houston and Warkentien are represented by CAA, wonder how that would work if both were up for the same job? Not that it matters, Houston would be a joke of a signing. Warkentien wouldn't be my first choice (he's 64, extremely close with Dolan and Mills...) but far better than Houston.
He's going for his doctorate so maybe he's just not that interested in such a major role at his age. His bio (presumably written by him) is kind of funny because it mentions highlights at different spots
"
LocationCleveland/Akron, Ohio Area
Served as Cleveland Cavaliers interim general manager in the 2 1/2 months before the 2005 NBA Draft. Traded Jiri Welsch for a second-round pick and did not pick up contract options of Lucious Harris and Robert Traylor, clearing $6.5 million of salary-cap room to be spent in summer of 2005."
I forgot the Knicks also have John Gabriel. What a weird front office makeup. I'm still surprised Phil only brought on 1 giuy to the front office. Remember all those articles about "Phil cleaning house. No more catering to CAA" when he was hired?
Unrelated but Bucks interested in Ian Clark. Seeking 8 mill a year. Would have much preferred Clark for 3 years at 27mill then the THJ signing...
I forgot the Knicks also have John Gabriel. What a weird front office makeup. I'm still surprised Phil only brought on 1 giuy to the front office. Remember all those articles about "Phil cleaning house. No more catering to CAA" when he was hired?
Unrelated but Bucks interested in Ian Clark. Seeking 8 mill a year. Would have much preferred Clark for 3 years at 27mill then the THJ signing...
I think I recall that he WANTED to clean house, and that story quietly died.
Another thing regarding Knicks-Rangers comparisons
Like Sather or not, there was no question that he was 100% in charge of the Rangers. Same is true now with Jeff Gorton. The Knicks are more byzantine - how much power did Phil have versus Mills or Warkentien? Does anyone really know? Is Mills completely in control now? How much does Dolan actually stick his nose into?
Honestly, what the Knicks' situation reminds me most of
is the Yankees, where for a long time there were more or less duplicate front offices - one in Tampa, one in NY, plus George's infamous "baseball people" like Clyde King who were "special advisors" with no official authority but who held influence with GS. It was that way for a long time until Cashman finally forced the Steinbrenners to give him the ultimate authority over the Tampa faction.
is the Yankees, where for a long time there were more or less duplicate front offices - one in Tampa, one in NY, plus George's infamous "baseball people" like Clyde King who were "special advisors" with no official authority but who held influence with GS. It was that way for a long time until Cashman finally forced the Steinbrenners to give him the ultimate authority over the Tampa faction.
That's true, aside from the Knicks lacking a Cashman-level personnel talent.
RE: RE: Honestly, what the Knicks' situation reminds me most of
is the Yankees, where for a long time there were more or less duplicate front offices - one in Tampa, one in NY, plus George's infamous "baseball people" like Clyde King who were "special advisors" with no official authority but who held influence with GS. It was that way for a long time until Cashman finally forced the Steinbrenners to give him the ultimate authority over the Tampa faction.
That's true, aside from the Knicks lacking a Cashman-level personnel talent.
Well, our European scouting has delivered KP when Mudiay, Hez, and others looked like candidates, told us to trade for Willy, and landed us Kuz for free (part of scouting is recruiting).
sooner roll the dice on Wilson based on the Knicks european success than go with Houston and that's with knowing Wilson has no (to my knowledge) experience negotiating trades or contracts.
the tar out of Mills, obviously he wants to show he should be the personel guy, he has publicly stated he wants a young "core" to grow together (his thinking with bringing back THJ), I would be surprised if he takes back veterans with bad contracts to trade Melo. If he eventually gets picks or young assets would we not be pleasantly surprised. It seems like he at least has the right kind of plan. That's something at least.
Melo doesn't land in Houston then this JSports guy can be ignored going forward. He didn't couch his statements or make it sound like it "might" happen.
Melo doesn't land in Houston then this JSports guy can be ignored going forward. He didn't couch his statements or make it sound like it "might" happen.
it is the first time i have seen him tweet in such a definite term...
1. Mills refused to give Griffin (or anyone else) full decision making power
2. Dolan will not allow an outside GM to bring in his own guys and/remove "his" guys.
Do most GMs have full decision making power vis a vis ownership? Does this mean Griffin wouldnt have full decision power vis a vis Mills, or Dolan?
If the answer is that Mills refused to give Griffin full power with respect to Griffin vs. Mills, then we already have our answer -- Mills is ultimately in charge, and is looking for what amounts to a deputy.
1> Lonzo Ball
2> Donovan Mitchell (two way- shut down Tatum).
3> Jonathan Isaac (two way- incredible athelete with elite d)
4> Tatum- Going to be very good, but needs to get stronger
5> Josh Hart ready to play.
1. Mills refused to give Griffin (or anyone else) full decision making power
2. Dolan will not allow an outside GM to bring in his own guys and/remove "his" guys.
was this in an article? radio spot?
Begley
Two things have become clear in the wake of ex-Cleveland Cavaliers GM David Griffin pulling his name out of the running for the New York Knicks president/GM job:
1. Current GM Steve Mills will want some authority over basketball decisions going forward, no matter whom the Knicks bring in.
2. Knicks owner James Dolan wont allow any executive from the outside to come in and fire/reassign the Knicks current executives to bring in his or her own people.
Those, according to ESPNs Adrian Wojnarowski, were two major sticking points in conversations between Griffin and the Knicks. (Griffin met on Friday night with Mills). And those were two major reasons Griffin pulled his name out of the running.
It makes sense that Griffin would want autonomy and final say over front-office staffing: That's typical for any executive who comes in from the outside.
Now, it seems clear that Mills will have at least some -- and maybe full -- autonomy when it comes to making basketball decisions. It's hard to see a big-name executive agreeing to join the Knicks without autonomy and freedom to bring in his or her own staff -- something the Knicks to date have been unwilling to grant. Link - ( New Window )
1. Mills refused to give Griffin (or anyone else) full decision making power
2. Dolan will not allow an outside GM to bring in his own guys and/remove "his" guys.
Do most GMs have full decision making power vis a vis ownership? Does this mean Griffin wouldnt have full decision power vis a vis Mills, or Dolan?
If the answer is that Mills refused to give Griffin full power with respect to Griffin vs. Mills, then we already have our answer -- Mills is ultimately in charge, and is looking for what amounts to a deputy.
Ian Begley answers your question-
"It makes sense that Griffin would want autonomy and final say over front-office staffing: That's typical for any executive who comes in from the outside."
Steve Popper ✔ @StevePopper
Tim [Hardaway Jr.] on Knicks: "They said straight up, You have to obviously improve a lot more on defense and improve a lot more on the offensive end."
3:06 PM - 10 Jul 2017
where the Knicks just amuse me. It's a lot easier.
I am convinced that Dolan is angry at all the fans who hate him and want him gone and out of spite he is doing all of this to get back at us. As long as he is still making money he will keep the status quo.
But the fact that they just threw money at THJ (who said publicly would like Melo to stay) and also expressed interest in Rondo and Rose is definitely concerning.
I never thought I would say this but I would rather have Daniel F'in Snyder as the owner of the Knicks instead of Dolan.
Eh, I often think Knicks fans deserve Dolan. They are, by far, the dumbest and most impatient fan base of any team that I follow. I love their passion, and obviously everyone isnt dumb. But there are enough dumb voices out there pulling the franchise into a dumb direction that it's frankly a testament to Mills that he blew their money on a youngish THJR instead of maxing out a PG, re-upping Rose, or dumping a wad on Redick or ZBo or some other famous name. Well, almost a testament. It's still too rich a deal with an inexplicable opt out and kicker.
What's the word on Ntilikina? Will he suit up soon for summer league?
a Melo to Houston deal is Portland, who else could be interested in taking on Anderson's contract? Who do we think says no to the following trade:
NY gets: Eric Gordon, Mo Harkless, Tim Quarterman, and Chinanu Onuaku (or whichever random $1mil player Houston wants)
Houston gets: Carmelo Anthony, Evan Turner
Portland gets: Ryan Anderson
Why each team benefits:
NY gets rid of Carmelo while bringing in young pieces in Harkless and Quarterman, as well as Eric Gordon who can serve as vet presence off the bench or more likely can be flipped into another younger asset at some point in the future.
Houston is able to bring in Melo to give them a "big 3" and is a more versatile weapon offensively than Ryan Anderson. They also are able to bring in Turner to fill in the sixth man role being vacated by Gordon. Perhaps Pringles can get the best out of him and he will be closer to the player he was in Boston than the disaster of a fit that he was in Portland.
Portland is able to rid themselves of Turner's contract and bring in Anderson who would fit much better alongside Nurkic, Lillard, McCollum, etc.
RE: The team I have heard floated most as the possible third team in
a Melo to Houston deal is Portland, who else could be interested in taking on Anderson's contract? Who do we think says no to the following trade:
NY gets: Eric Gordon, Mo Harkless, Tim Quarterman, and Chinanu Onuaku (or whichever random $1mil player Houston wants)
Houston gets: Carmelo Anthony, Evan Turner
Portland gets: Ryan Anderson
Mike. Houston cannot fit Melo and Turners contracts in their cap
You are talking about 44 million
Gordon and Anderson only add up 35 million
Why each team benefits:
NY gets rid of Carmelo while bringing in young pieces in Harkless and Quarterman, as well as Eric Gordon who can serve as vet presence off the bench or more likely can be flipped into another younger asset at some point in the future.
Houston is able to bring in Melo to give them a "big 3" and is a more versatile weapon offensively than Ryan Anderson. They also are able to bring in Turner to fill in the sixth man role being vacated by Gordon. Perhaps Pringles can get the best out of him and he will be closer to the player he was in Boston than the disaster of a fit that he was in Portland.
Portland is able to rid themselves of Turner's contract and bring in Anderson who would fit much better alongside Nurkic, Lillard, McCollum, etc.
a Melo to Houston deal is Portland, who else could be interested in taking on Anderson's contract? Who do we think says no to the following trade:
NY gets: Eric Gordon, Mo Harkless, Tim Quarterman, and Chinanu Onuaku (or whichever random $1mil player Houston wants)
Houston gets: Carmelo Anthony, Evan Turner
Portland gets: Ryan Anderson
Mike. Houston cannot fit Melo and Turners contracts in their cap
You are talking about 44 million
Gordon and Anderson only add up 35 million
Why each team benefits:
NY gets rid of Carmelo while bringing in young pieces in Harkless and Quarterman, as well as Eric Gordon who can serve as vet presence off the bench or more likely can be flipped into another younger asset at some point in the future.
Houston is able to bring in Melo to give them a "big 3" and is a more versatile weapon offensively than Ryan Anderson. They also are able to bring in Turner to fill in the sixth man role being vacated by Gordon. Perhaps Pringles can get the best out of him and he will be closer to the player he was in Boston than the disaster of a fit that he was in Portland.
Portland is able to rid themselves of Turner's contract and bring in Anderson who would fit much better alongside Nurkic, Lillard, McCollum, etc.
he deleted it, there is a guy on twitter who apparently is followed by begely, shelbourne and a couple others saying that harden is telling people that the deal is done...fwiw
If this does go through, I'd like to know what they have been hammering out since this was first reported as a "done deal."
never reported as "done" it was reported thay players from houston and knicks were told melo will be dealt to houston...
my guess knicks and houston locked on and worked to get a deal done together and that is how it got leaked
Was referring to that jsports guy. If he is in fact not full of shit, then again I'm interested in the particulars that have been batted back and forth since he first put that out there. Can't imagine that he would say it's happening if they were looking for a third team this whole time.
qualifications, he has said he wants to have a young core to grow together. That's why he didn't have an issue signing a 25 yr old THJ. I would have to think he is pushing for young players and/or picks. Say what you want about him but that's what we want him to do. If he works with Hornacek for which players to ask for it might work out. I'm not ready to bury him until this plays out. And if he does well then it might not be a horror show with him running the joint. He screws up from arrogance or stupidity I'll be right there calling for his head.
I can see a scenario where Phil is scapegoated and everyone else acts as if this never happened and they pretend they are contenders.
I've been saying all along he just might not be traded. I'll believe he's gone when I see it and I refuse to believe we get anything positive in return even if he's dealt.
qualifications, he has said he wants to have a young core to grow together. That's why he didn't have an issue signing a 25 yr old THJ. I would have to think he is pushing for young players and/or picks. Say what you want about him but that's what we want him to do. If he works with Hornacek for which players to ask for it might work out. I'm not ready to bury him until this plays out. And if he does well then it might not be a horror show with him running the joint. He screws up from arrogance or stupidity I'll be right there calling for his head.
Good post. Bringing in players that might actually fit with the coach's preferred style of play. What a novel concept, huh?
know absolutely positively nothing about weight training but a guy who claims he does (he sounds like he does) stated concern with Porzingis strength in a video he posted
"Let my preface this by saying that I don't think there's any need for him to become some 300lb giant, nor do I expect him to already have achieved some elite level of strength.
That said, his workout recordings are a disaster. They disguise it in places by using bumper plates (far larger and less dense than iron) to make it look like he's moving more weight, but the guy is lifting amounts the average completely untrained rookie can achieve within a month of casual training. In his most recent video, we see his bench is only at 50kg (110lbs). That's pre-draft Kevin Durant strength from a guy going into his third season. He also shows off one of the ugliest power cleans I've ever seen, catching 100% of the weight on his elbows at an angle that will cause injury long-term if not corrected. Judging from his rack pull and other recent clips, his squat and deadlift are comparably weak. It isn't even a matter of pacing him so he gets used to playing at different weights or something; he can get way stronger and more explosive without putting on a pound. That means he either wasn't doing any of these exercises until very recently or his training is being so mishandled to where he simply isn't gaining any strength.
I can't drive home enough that these are levels normal, untrained individuals don't uncommonly achieve just via day to day activity. I can't imagine a team's training staff handling a player's strength training this poorly when it's been one of his primary issues thus far. Which leads into my main concern with Porzingis in general; his brother. KP's brother is the one spearheading the training that doesn't appear to be working, handling communication with the front office that only led to increased tensions, and constantly talking about leveraging KP's position. Where a guy like Lavar is just hot air to ignore, this case seems like something that could genuinely hurt our situation going forward. I don't like seeing KP pass on the best trainers money can buy for an alright former basketball player who may very well have been raised on broscience."
George Karl, Phil Jackson and at times the Knicks fanbase have all collectively sh*t on Melo's game, but I'm still surprised by how hard trading him seems to be, especially for any real assets of value. I understand the NTC and the money, but still.
I guess I'm talking specifically about LeBron. If I was in LeBron's shoes I'd have Kevin Love on the trading block looking for a way to bring Melo in immediately. His only shot at Golden State (as long as he stays in Cleveland) is bringing in the olympic version of Carmelo Anthony to run with he and Kyrie.
George Karl, Phil Jackson and at times the Knicks fanbase have all collectively sh*t on Melo's game, but I'm still surprised by how hard trading him seems to be, especially for any real assets of value. I understand the NTC and the money, but still.
I guess I'm talking specifically about LeBron. If I was in LeBron's shoes I'd have Kevin Love on the trading block looking for a way to bring Melo in immediately. His only shot at Golden State (as long as he stays in Cleveland) is bringing in the olympic version of Carmelo Anthony to run with he and Kyrie.
I think a lot of it is the NTC and the fact that teams he is eyeballing are tapped out of future assets. Save Cleveland, which so far seems to want to keep it's future #1s out of fear LeBron is leaving in a year.
Following up on the Griffin story, Stefan Bondy of The New York Daily News reports that one of the requests made by the former Cavs GM was to remove assistant GM Allan Houston from the front office. The Knicks unwillingness to part with Houston or to let Griffin bring in his own staff was one reason why the potential partnership didnt pan out.
Currently, Mills is focusing on potentially trading Carmelo Anthony, finding a veteran point guard, and figuring out how to smooth things over with Kristaps Porzingis, according to Begley.
On the point guard front, the club has remained in touch with Rajon Rondo, and theres mutual interest there, says Begley. However, the Knicks are out of cap room for the moment, so its not clear if Rondo would be willing to settle for the $4.3MM room exception, or if the team is looking to create cap space in order to make a more substantial offer.
A trade for a veteran point guard is a possibility too, according to Begley, who says New York had strong interest in Patrick Beverley before Houston traded him to the Clippers. Begley also mentions Brandon Knight or Eric Bledsoe as possible trade candidates, though theres no indication the Knicks have talked to Phoenix about those vets.
No Carmelo deal is imminent, but the Knicks and Anthony feel good about getting something done at some point, sources tell Begley. For his part, newly-signed Knick Tim Hardaway said hed definitely like to see Anthony return to the team next season (link via Begley).
It's like an arms race to stay in that top % of the league and also have a shot at GS (who by the way improved its team again this offseason).
OKC made their move.
Houston made their move, looking for more.
Boston is taking more of a measured approach through the drafts, but they are still right there.
San Antonio and Cleveland I'd argue are the ones who need to keep up at this point. Of course you trust them with LeBron, Pop and Kawhi. But as age creeps in, don't you need reinforcements?
George Karl, Phil Jackson and at times the Knicks fanbase have all collectively sh*t on Melo's game, but I'm still surprised by how hard trading him seems to be, especially for any real assets of value. I understand the NTC and the money, but still.
even without the NTC it wouldn't be easy. Only a contending team is going to want Melo - and it's hard for a contending team to send back matching salaries without breaking up their existing core players.
It's so much easier to pull off these kinds of deals in MLB. You can trade a star player making $100 million for 3 guys who aren't even in the majors.
"Begley also mentions Brandon Knight or Eric Bledsoe"
is not happening. There are only a few teams that could absorb a courtney Lee into capspace and they arent going to do it for free. The teams that have capspace dont need a courtney lee.
As for Knight, i think going to PHX, the land of a thousand guards really hurt him. That said his contract is horrible so id have no interest in him for the knicks.
Knight sure seems to have fallen off quite a bit from earlier in his career. Anyone know what's gone on with him?
Earl Watson repeatedly mentioned a lack of effort on defense from Knight last season. He's ALWAYS hurt (169 games played since 2013-2014 out of 246 team games) and by WS/48 he's been straight garbage all but 1 season. That's an ugly contract for the player he's been 3 years 44 million. I'd pass. Wouldn't want him for 3 years and even Lee for Knight doesn't really do much for me.
Knight sure seems to have fallen off quite a bit from earlier in his career. Anyone know what's gone on with him?
What is that quote from? Would love Knight or Bledsoe. Both are pretty good buy low opportunities due to the Suns glut at PG.
You'd pay Brandon Knight 43 million? I wouldn't.
Last 2 season .032 WS/48, 58 games missed. The corpse of Deron Williams .077 WS/48 over the same period 35 games missed. Deron Williams will be lucky to get 1 year 4.3 million.
The Suns are an interesting 3rd team in a Melo deal though.
They have a glut at PG and 24M in cap room, so the Knicks could trade Melo for Knight and save 13M this year and next in salary. Would obviously hope they got more in return, but that is intriguing.
the Suns seemingly shut him down last year even though he was healthy. weird.
Already on his 3rd team and being shopped again, my guess is he's not the kind of player coaches like to deal with... here is Watson on Knight and why he wasn't playing over Ullis.... exactly the kind of players we should be avoiding... especially at 43 million owed
Ball pressure is most important at that position, Watson said. We feel like Tyler Ulis gives us that every time we put him on the court. Its not scoring points, its not you have 20 points and be efficient or offensively its can you create a presence defensively. When you talk about building a culture, you go through your first season and you identify the players who are going to commit to the mindset or the physical sacrifice of defensively building that culture.
"You have to break down the mental barrier of where they see value in themselves, Watson said of his team overall. For us, we have to go from a me-team to a we-team. So the me-team is, Im good enough to change the game offensively. Im good enough to score enough points to stay in the game, have an impact. The we-team is, I have to give everything I have defensively. When we get to offense, I have to move the ball and share the ball to regain some wind and some stamina. We have to change that mindset and that action."
the Suns seemingly shut him down last year even though he was healthy. weird.
Already on his 3rd team and being shopped again, my guess is he's not the kind of player coaches like to deal with... here is Watson on Knight and why he wasn't playing over Ullis.... exactly the kind of players we should be avoiding... especially at 43 million owed
Ball pressure is most important at that position, Watson said. We feel like Tyler Ulis gives us that every time we put him on the court. Its not scoring points, its not you have 20 points and be efficient or offensively its can you create a presence defensively. When you talk about building a culture, you go through your first season and you identify the players who are going to commit to the mindset or the physical sacrifice of defensively building that culture.
"You have to break down the mental barrier of where they see value in themselves, Watson said of his team overall. For us, we have to go from a me-team to a we-team. So the me-team is, Im good enough to change the game offensively. Im good enough to score enough points to stay in the game, have an impact. The we-team is, I have to give everything I have defensively. When we get to offense, I have to move the ball and share the ball to regain some wind and some stamina. We have to change that mindset and that action."
Love this quote. Exactly why I wanted frank over smith
He played for Hornacek 1 season (2015-2016) and 11 games the previous year and sucked. .043 WS/48. He's only had one stretch of good play in his career. 52 games with the Bucks during the 2014-2015 season.
Im sure most coaches believe it. The great coaches get players to buy in, which isnt easy. I think it's even harder when you've got a transient roster like we tend to have. Plus, Melo and Rose are not great leaders by example on this front.
point posting the quote was really just to point out that he's exactly the type of player (at least according to Watson) we need to be avoiding. We need hungry players, not guys who get paid and lose the fire.
Bud told THjr he would not play if he didn't play better defense/improve his defense and despite giving up a 1st round pick to land him, he didn't play the first 25 or so games of the season. Hornacek needs to grow some balls here. His daddy is gone, play D or don't play.
Bud told THjr he would not play if he didn't play better defense/improve his defense and despite giving up a 1st round pick to land him, he didn't play the first 25 or so games of the season. Hornacek needs to grow some balls here. His daddy is gone, play D or don't play.
Knicks have lacked accountability for years. It's easier to enforce accountability at the margins of the rotation -- e.g. you can sit a KOQ and distribute his minutes to others. But there was no mechanism to do it with Melo and Rose.
Im not holding my breath on it starting now. We've still got a very thin roster. I think that's why it's so important that you keep seeing "hard worker" thrown around about some of our players. KP, Frank, and per the ATL reports THJR. Noah is a hard working leader. Key rotation pieces need to be motivated to do the work because you cant really sit them.
I think you are letting Hornacek off too easily. Carmelo Anthony and his NTC, contract and ability is one thing. What stopped Hornacek from benching Rose when the defensive effort was lacking? I have a hard time believing Phil Jackson would have had an issue with players being benched for lack of defensive effort. It's far from my biggest concern (I have many) but Hornacek seems kind of weak to me. Reportedly "berating" KP at times, but scared of the vets. Grow some balls Jeff.
like Caruso only as a SL invite from LAK and with Lonzo there gotta believe if the Knicks offered a partial guarantee they could snipe him. Worth a shot.
Bud told THjr he would not play if he didn't play better defense/improve his defense and despite giving up a 1st round pick to land him, he didn't play the first 25 or so games of the season. Hornacek needs to grow some balls here. His daddy is gone, play D or don't play.
This is player development and the positive of having an elite coach. I remember getting in arguments with posters who doubted Atlantas player development. Case in point right here.
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Hoiberg: Rajon Rondo was one of my favorites ever to coach. He was great for young players. Asked a million questions to prepare team.
I think you are letting Hornacek off too easily. Carmelo Anthony and his NTC, contract and ability is one thing. What stopped Hornacek from benching Rose when the defensive effort was lacking? I have a hard time believing Phil Jackson would have had an issue with players being benched for lack of defensive effort. It's far from my biggest concern (I have many) but Hornacek seems kind of weak to me. Reportedly "berating" KP at times, but scared of the vets. Grow some balls Jeff.
Yeah, my post was garbled. A good coach would bench Melo or Rose. Even just for stretches, for 4th quarters etc. Hornacek had an impossible task IMO, but he didnt do anything to impress me either.
I think you are letting Hornacek off too easily. Carmelo Anthony and his NTC, contract and ability is one thing. What stopped Hornacek from benching Rose when the defensive effort was lacking? I have a hard time believing Phil Jackson would have had an issue with players being benched for lack of defensive effort. It's far from my biggest concern (I have many) but Hornacek seems kind of weak to me. Reportedly "berating" KP at times, but scared of the vets. Grow some balls Jeff.
Yeah, my post was garbled. A good coach would bench Melo or Rose. Even just for stretches, for 4th quarters etc. Hornacek had an impossible task IMO, but he didnt do anything to impress me either.
The flipside is that if you come down on the vets, particularly the stars, you risk losing the locker room completely. Im sure it's a fine line and isnt just as simple of a matter as having the will power to sit a star and sacrifice short term production for long term better play.
is only going to get involved if his bosses (the other owners) pressure him. This is sort of what happened with Philly as the other owners didn't like that revenues weren't being maximized (enter Colangelo). At MSG, the Knicks are printing cash and generating among the highest revenues in the league so the other owners couldn't care less how dumb they are. In fact, that they remain non-competitive while making tons of cash makes both the owners AND the other GMs/Presidents happy.
Adam Silver? Forget it.But maybe Cablevision will be forced to remove him.
You can't have this guy walking around like he doesn't care,ala Peter Gibbons,daring people not to show up to games.
Pretty sure Dolan sold Cablevision to some euros 2 years ago..
A French company bought Cablevision. MSG was spun off of it years ago -- Cablevision has no control of the Knicks.
I dont hope that Charles Dolan dies. But my hope is that when he goes that the other Dolan kids are not going to want to pony up the cash it would take to hold on to MSG and pay the inheritance tax out of pocket. But Jimmy just spun off MSG Network, reducing the value of MSG, and he could probably do more spinoffs/asset sales to reduce the value of MSG to minimize the tax payment.
is that behind Rose was Jennings who was just as bad, if not worse, on defense.
The Knicks were so bad that running Baker or Sasha D leaguers out there that at least put in effort while benching "stars" would have done more good than bad.
and the teams is what allows Dolan to hobnob with rich and famous musicians he worships. If he ever sells, he's just another billionaire who's only hanging out with them if he hires them to play his birthday party.
and the teams is what allows Dolan to hobnob with rich and famous musicians he worships. If he ever sells, he's just another billionaire who's only hanging out with them if he hires them to play his birthday party.
Right, but he doesnt own MSG. He owns 9.8% of the voting power at MSG. Charles and his wife Helen collectively own 41.8% of the voting power, and the family as a group owns 70.7% of the voting power. Other Dolans personal holdings that add into that voting power (see link to proxy).
When Charles (age 90) and Helen pass away, there will be an estate tax bill to pay. Even if Jimmy wants to keep MSG, he could get overruled by the other siblings, especially if they think there is untapped value in MSG once you get it out of JD's hands. MSG, or its assets split up, are almost certainly worth more than the $4.5 bn market cap of MSG Co., which has very little real debt. Link - ( New Window )
and the teams is what allows Dolan to hobnob with rich and famous musicians he worships. If he ever sells, he's just another billionaire who's only hanging out with them if he hires them to play his birthday party.
Right, but he doesnt own MSG. He owns 9.8% of the voting power at MSG. Charles and his wife Helen collectively own 41.8% of the voting power, and the family as a group owns 70.7% of the voting power. Other Dolans personal holdings that add into that voting power (see link to proxy).
When Charles (age 90) and Helen pass away, there will be an estate tax bill to pay. Even if Jimmy wants to keep MSG, he could get overruled by the other siblings, especially if they think there is untapped value in MSG once you get it out of JD's hands. MSG, or its assets split up, are almost certainly worth more than the $4.5 bn market cap of MSG Co., which has very little real debt. Link - ( New Window )
thanks for the info. So what do you think might happen if and when they're forced to deal with the estate tax?
than the Knicks, which is one of the reasons I don't like sinking big money into a player that has a lot of growing to do.
Budenholzer can do what he did because he was coach and GM. There's a long line of recent Knicks coaches to which you can say didn't do anything discipline-wise. There's enough there that I feel like we can start asking if coaches inside MSG actually have the authority to do such things.
Woodson talked a good game, but he never actually did anything with JR Smith.
than the Knicks, which is one of the reasons I don't like sinking big money into a player that has a lot of growing to do.
Budenholzer can do what he did because he was coach and GM. There's a long line of recent Knicks coaches to which you can say didn't do anything discipline-wise. There's enough there that I feel like we can start asking if coaches inside MSG actually have the authority to do such things.
Woodson talked a good game, but he never actually did anything with JR Smith.
Do you honestly believe Phil Jackson would have stopped Hornacek from playing guys based on defensive effort/hustle and benching those who did not? IF anything that seems like something Phil would have supported. Hornacek strikes me as meek, I'd love to be proven wrong.
I could only speculate. If there is an estate tax (the GOP wants to eliminate it), the family will have to cough up some money. Surely there is estate planning, and this isnt one of those families where there is one asset and so you have no flexibility on what to keep/sell.
My guess is that there is more than enough flexibility for the family to keep MSG if they want to. It's just a question of whether the other siblings want to keep MSG, or keep something else/take their cash and disentangle their finances. IMO, a good investment banker could sell off MSG's assets (out of JD's hands too) and fetch a much better return. Split it into the (1) Knicks/Lib, (2) Rangers, (3) MSG, and (4) entertainment. There will be a billionaire's bidding war over the Knicks and Rangers.
Do they want that? They have 70% of the vote but only ~20% of the ownership. Or maybe they sell off MSG and the entertainment products but let Jimmy keep the Rangers and Knicks (though those are the assets that I think would bring back huge $$).
I know I shouldn't be surprised by the wretchedness of this team
than the Knicks, which is one of the reasons I don't like sinking big money into a player that has a lot of growing to do.
Budenholzer can do what he did because he was coach and GM. There's a long line of recent Knicks coaches to which you can say didn't do anything discipline-wise. There's enough there that I feel like we can start asking if coaches inside MSG actually have the authority to do such things.
Woodson talked a good game, but he never actually did anything with JR Smith.
Do you honestly believe Phil Jackson would have stopped Hornacek from playing guys based on defensive effort/hustle and benching those who did not? IF anything that seems like something Phil would have supported. Hornacek strikes me as meek, I'd love to be proven wrong.
I don't know what to believe about Phil Jackson's time here. There's enough smoke to argue that he didn't care all that much about what was going on with the team in a lot of ways. You'd think Phil would have a problem with Rose just deciding to blow off work, too. That would fall under his immediate responsibility and we don't know that he did anything there to address it.
RE: I know I shouldn't be surprised by the wretchedness of this team
Frank Isola @FisolaNYDN
THJ signs one of the richest free agent contracts in Knicks history and every executive & coach was a no-show at the press conference.
surprise but Presti basically confirmed Westbrook has been offered the super max. I can't imagine a player gambling on their health with 228 million on the table.
RE: RE: RE: I know I shouldn't be surprised by the wretchedness of this team
why? Mills was running things by himself in the post Grunwald / pre-Phil era.
And it was just as ludicrous then.
eh, ludicrous in a vacuum or for a normal team. But I don't know if it cracks the top 5 or top 10 of ridiculous front-office related fiascos at MSG since Dolan has owned the team.
Frank Isola @FisolaNYDN
THJ signs one of the richest free agent contracts in Knicks history and every executive & coach was a no-show at the press conference.
Mills is busy interviewing experienced NBA front office executives and telling them they'll have to answer to an empty suit.
RE: RE: RE: I know I shouldn't be surprised by the wretchedness of this team
Guarantee a top three pick and force Dolan, Mills and Houston to endure the most embarrassing season in franchise history.
we do know that sometimes Dolan will react to negative press coverage like he did with Phil or during the JVG/Checketts/Grunfeld feud. But then other times he will dig in and turn a deaf ear (Isiah).
RE: RE: RE: RE: I know I shouldn't be surprised by the wretchedness of this team
why? Mills was running things by himself in the post Grunwald / pre-Phil era.
And it was just as ludicrous then.
He also really didnt do any harm. Indeed, he didnt do anything at all, which for a Knicks executive is pretty good. Link - ( New Window )
He was also the guy in charge when they negotiated the supposed Kyle Lowry trade centered around Iman Shumpert and a future 1st before Dolan vetoed it at the last minute because he was afraid of Masai.
Frank Isola @FisolaNYDN
THJ signs one of the richest free agent contracts in Knicks history and every executive & coach was a no-show at the press conference.
I'm not a Frank Isola guy at all, but he's dead-on here. More of the same from the Knicks. But Steve Mills says he wants to promote a culture of accountability though.
accounts of the Lowry trade make it sound as if they were basically sans GM and that Mike Woodson was heavily involved with the negotiations vs. Mills (for whatever that's worth).
accounts of the Lowry trade make it sound as if they were basically sans GM and that Mike Woodson was heavily involved with the negotiations vs. Mills (for whatever that's worth).
Either way it is for the best that the trade didn't go through. We most likely wouldn't have ended up with Porzingis and the draft pick that Toronto was seeking is our 2018 first which has the looks of one that will end up high in the lottery.
accounts of the Lowry trade make it sound as if they were basically sans GM and that Mike Woodson was heavily involved with the negotiations vs. Mills (for whatever that's worth).
Either way it is for the best that the trade didn't go through. We most likely wouldn't have ended up with Porzingis and the draft pick that Toronto was seeking is our 2018 first which has the looks of one that will end up high in the lottery.
Oh I wasn't disagreeing with you. I just went back and read the old reports and it said stuff like Woodson and Dolan did not want to include THjr (funny enough) but the reports made no mention of Mills involvement but did mention Woodson's input which leads me to believe Mills was less involved than your standard GM at the time.
particularly new but decent read Link - ( New Window )
Boiled down, it's "at least we have Porzingis".
Sometime I think about what it would be like if the Sixers took KP, and Phil got Okafor (who he wanted). Melo and Okafor as the front line. Probably no Lopez/Noah but I could still see them getting Rose last offseason, because really Chicago wanted him out and Phil wanted him here. Melo, Rose, Okafor. The Mecca of Basketball.
particularly new but decent read Link - ( New Window )
Boiled down, it's "at least we have Porzingis".
Sometime I think about what it would be like if the Sixers took KP, and Phil got Okafor (who he wanted). Melo and Okafor as the front line. Probably no Lopez/Noah but I could still see them getting Rose last offseason, because really Chicago wanted him out and Phil wanted him here. Melo, Rose, Okafor. The Mecca of Basketball.
really want Okafor? You may be right, I just can't remember what the talk was before that draft.
I know I didn't want Okafor. You had to be a fool to think his defensive and rebounding liabilities weren't going to really destroy him as an NBA player. I said at the time his ceiling was Al Jefferson, and i doubt he ever even reaches that
really want Okafor? You may be right, I just can't remember what the talk was before that draft.
I know I didn't want Okafor. You had to be a fool to think his defensive and rebounding liabilities weren't going to really destroy him as an NBA player. I said at the time his ceiling was Al Jefferson, and i doubt he ever even reaches that
really want Okafor? You may be right, I just can't remember what the talk was before that draft.
I know I didn't want Okafor. You had to be a fool to think his defensive and rebounding liabilities weren't going to really destroy him as an NBA player. I said at the time his ceiling was Al Jefferson, and i doubt he ever even reaches that
should have been our first sign Phil was going to be a disaster. Admitting Towns might end up the better player but that the Knicks needed help ASAP...
Even if you looked at it from an ASAP point of view, Towns was still the choice. Offensively he was not far behind Okafor and he was already light years better as a rebounder and defender.
Jesus they should have fired him on the spot over that comment, no idea how I missed it.
Watching Okafor try to play pick and roll defense at Duke was painful.
For sure, hes a better defender than Okafor, but even in the limited minutes he got during the season, Towns was always in foul trouble, Jackson said. Also, hes not very core-strong. Plus, his big feet will make it difficult for him to maneuver through heavy traffic in the paint. I think in four years Towns will be a better NBA player that Okafor, but Okafor is more NBA-ready right now and we need help ASAP.
and it's helped humble me. A lot of the reason Im fine with Frank is that I have no way of saying which guy among the 3 guards really has "it". Im not out there scouting them.
Looking back at the Rosen piece, he mentions Towns, Okafor, Russell, Booker, and WCS. This was published after the draft, but based on mid-March discussions. So either KP wasnt on his radar yet as a foreign player, or Phil was playing it cool with Rosen. Link - ( New Window )
fact he acknowledges Towns will be better in 4 years but the Knicks need help ASAP is all you need to know about his willingness to "rebuild" or "slow build". I've also never heard a single scout cite feet being too big for success...
fact he acknowledges Towns will be better in 4 years but the Knicks need help ASAP is all you need to know about his willingness to "rebuild" or "slow build". I've also never heard a single scout cite feet being too big for success...
Shaq had size 22 feet.
And what about Phil's complaints about Towns's core strength, which he later echoed re KP. He seems pre-occupied with stuff no one else is talking about.
In a lot of ways Phil's mindset just seems fixed in basketball as it existed in a prior era. I think his Bulls and Lakers teams would be really good today running the same schemes. But he basically cant imagine anyone succeeding WITHOUT a power center based game. It's bizarre (especially since he then signed Lopez and Noah to big contracts).
who mocked Phil for spending more than the min on guys like Lance (his previous contract) and Admundson. But this blows those deals out of the water...
who mocked Phil for spending more than the min on guys like Lance (his previous contract) and Admundson. But this blows those deals out of the water...
Jaylen Brown, who was taken third overall in the same draft that Ron Baker was in (who went undrafted mind you), will earn the SAME AMOUNT OF MONEY that Baker will earn this year.
Player option is what makes it most absurd. The entire value of finding a Ron Baker (assuming he even improves) is that you lock in value at a low rate. If he's semi-decent he will opt-out and you will need to pay him and if he sucks you are stuck with him. Somehow he turned zero leverage into "beating" the Knicks. Amazing.
everyone who rejoiced in the firing of Jackson; welcome back to Dolan's world. The only good thing is we are assuring the team to be complete shit by spending every last dollar we have on mediocre to bad players; but the fun will end when the Dolan Knicks inevitably trade their first round pick this year at the trade deadline after Derrick Rose shows a pulse with whatever team he latches on with and the Knicks think he is the last piece of the puzzle needed to return to relevancy that is of an 8 seed.
I have zero doubt that the return will be extremely disappointing, if not horrendous.
When or more exactly why did you ever think the return was going to be good? Did Melo turn into a different player or find a time machine recently? For all of the bitching and moaning about Phil "hurting his value", everyone can see the tapes and knows what Melo is at this point in his career. And whatever that is isn't someone people hand over valuable assets for. Hopefully they do the best they can and that doesn't involve something like Ryan Anderson contracts or draft picks that are heavily protected.
I seriously doubt RC Buford, Red Auerbach, and Jerry West in a room could extract much for Melo considering his contract, age, game, and NTC. (They just would've been smart enough not to give him the NTC and/or contract.) At this point, "it is what it is".
Obviously Hornachek saw something in him for us to keep him
With the Knicks signing Ron Baker to the full room exception, they have less than $1.5 million in cap space left & still need a veteran PG
I guess they're expecting to clear cap space with Melo trade and possibly Lee trade. Otherwise, having Baker as the PG would guarantee a high pick next season, so it's not all bad.
crux of the lunacy is the PO. If the Knicks think Ron Baker is potentially worth 9 million dollars (or 4.5 million this year) then they obviously believe he can play AT LEAST at that level which means if he plays well... he opts out. So the Knicks, ya know the ones with the leverage, they are the ones who bent over. Ron Baker got a BETTER deal than Justin Holiday. Ron Baker was 16th in PER (out of 16) and 16th in Ws/48 (out of 16). Unreal.
crux of the lunacy is the PO. If the Knicks think Ron Baker is potentially worth 9 million dollars (or 4.5 million this year) then they obviously believe he can play AT LEAST at that level which means if he plays well... he opts out. So the Knicks, ya know the ones with the leverage, they are the ones who bent over. Ron Baker got a BETTER deal than Justin Holiday. Ron Baker was 16th in PER (out of 16) and 16th in Ws/48 (out of 16). Unreal.
Maybe the height of the lunacy. Crux is far too kind to the gross amount of salary.
Steve Mills is not good at negotiating contracts. He's been a Knicks executive for a while now, it's not like he's new to this. This is a big problem.
Team is completely capped out with an awful roster and still with a massive hole at point guard. How does Baker get that money and that player option? What a home run for Baker and a shit deal for the Knicks.
in that teams know the relationship is toxic and one they're trying to get out of.
I agree that teams would be offering less to take him off of the Knicks hands... just look at how stingy the KP offers were. But we live in a world where Paul George and DeMarcus Cousins (different circumstances, I know) get "disappointing returns".
I think if there were several teams looking at him and saying, "That's a player we absolutely have to acquire", it wouldn't matter. I'm not sure there's even one team saying that. What could we have legitimately expected for a guy who's expensive and clearly past his prime? I just think that drives the return more than anything Phil could've said.
other crony Ronald Lazenby is now saying Mills was part of the reason Phil didn't work here. Mills "obstructed" Jackson's initiatives.
Why are these idiots even bothering with this horseshit now? Phil is gone and he got a pile of money. Was one of "Phil's initiatives" making that imbecile Kurt Rambis the head coach?
other crony Ronald Lazenby is now saying Mills was part of the reason Phil didn't work here. Mills "obstructed" Jackson's initiatives.
Why are these idiots even bothering with this horseshit now? Phil is gone and he got a pile of money. Was one of "Phil's initiatives" making that imbecile Kurt Rambis the head coach?
lazenby also proclaimed rambis would be head coach and that he already had the job
other crony Ronald Lazenby is now saying Mills was part of the reason Phil didn't work here. Mills "obstructed" Jackson's initiatives.
Why are these idiots even bothering with this horseshit now? Phil is gone and he got a pile of money. Was one of "Phil's initiatives" making that imbecile Kurt Rambis the head coach?
lazenby also proclaimed rambis would be head coach and that he already had the job
why do the Knicks keep giving these PO out? Even Hardaways deal has one after 3? The Knicks are the ones with the leverage in these situations and they still lose the deals.
why do the Knicks keep giving these PO out? Even Hardaways deal has one after 3? The Knicks are the ones with the leverage in these situations and they still lose the deals.
Because everyone knows that the Knicks are so desperate to be chosen by the player that they dont say no to this stuff. It's a gross lack of organizational self confidence. And no one worries about 3 years later because they'll be thru 2 more GMs by then.
why do the Knicks keep giving these PO out? Even Hardaways deal has one after 3? The Knicks are the ones with the leverage in these situations and they still lose the deals.
knicks never have leverage because they suck so bad...
look at durant taking less money so the warriors can sign their bench guys and the gm said he offered to take even less...
did melo do that? nope, he could of taken continuous 2 year deals to give knicks flexibility but of course melo had to have his money...
courtney lee has to be kicking himself right now, took less to be here and now he probably wont even start
Is at all like Durant going to play for a perennial contender and a team that played in the finals and won one the last two years. But keep bashing him if it helps.
As fans who want to continue rooting for the team, we don't have a choice.
Sad part is that KP is probably going to come in any play the whole season in F-U mode, and average something like 24-8-2.5, and make Jimmy and Mills look better than they should look.
Is at all like Durant going to play for a perennial contender and a team that played in the finals and won one the last two years. But keep bashing him if it helps.
That's his point. When you are the knicks and you are a joke, players play for money, not to win.
At the end of the 2015 season, Minny and New York were in similar situations. I know Minnesota had Wiggins/ Lavine and all their picks but they were similar situations. T wolves truly tanked the end of the year while the Knicks won meaningless games that bumped them to 4th. Both teams still came away with 2 franchise talents from the 2015 draft.
Fast forward 2 years and compare the 2. T Wolves have an elite head coach. The Knicks are on their 3rd coach in 2 years and zero direction as a franchise. Minny acquired Jimmy Butler, Jeff Teague, Justin Patton and Taj Gibson this offseason. Along with an extra 1st round pick from Utah. They also own all their future picks and didn't try to trade KAT.
2 Franchises going in complete different directions over 2 years.
Well, the Knicks have their picks, but we'll see how long that lasts
At the end of the 2015 season, Minny and New York were in similar situations. I know Minnesota had Wiggins/ Lavine and all their picks but they were similar situations. T wolves truly tanked the end of the year while the Knicks won meaningless games that bumped them to 4th. Both teams still came away with 2 franchise talents from the 2015 draft.
Fast forward 2 years and compare the 2. T Wolves have an elite head coach. The Knicks are on their 3rd coach in 2 years and zero direction as a franchise. Minny acquired Jimmy Butler, Jeff Teague, Justin Patton and Taj Gibson this offseason. Along with an extra 1st round pick from Utah. They also own all their future picks and didn't try to trade KAT.
2 Franchises going in complete different directions over 2 years.
Wiggins, Lavine, all of their picks =/= all that similar, even putting aside the fact that they won the lottery.
At the end of the 2015 season, Minny and New York were in similar situations. I know Minnesota had Wiggins/ Lavine and all their picks but they were similar situations. T wolves truly tanked the end of the year while the Knicks won meaningless games that bumped them to 4th. Both teams still came away with 2 franchise talents from the 2015 draft.
Fast forward 2 years and compare the 2. T Wolves have an elite head coach. The Knicks are on their 3rd coach in 2 years and zero direction as a franchise. Minny acquired Jimmy Butler, Jeff Teague, Justin Patton and Taj Gibson this offseason. Along with an extra 1st round pick from Utah. They also own all their future picks and didn't try to trade KAT.
2 Franchises going in complete different directions over 2 years.
I completely disagree that these teams were in similar situations... that's not even remotely true. The T'Wolves have whiffed on a bunch of really high picks (Flynn, Wesley Johnson, Derrick Williams), yet still were in a better position than the Knicks because they've ALWAYS had their picks.
KAT joined a team that already had 4 T'Wolves first round picks on it and that doesn't even include Andrew Wiggins.
KP joined a team that had Jerian Grant.
That's a big difference in assets and upside. Sure the Knicks could've gotten Thibs. Would they be able to trade for Jimmy Butler? No. They don't even have the assets to match the substandard return the Bulls got. I know people hate Phil Jackson, but I seriously doubt even the best of front office people would've turned the Knicks around in 3+ years because they all would've been dealing with the same issue of depleted assets in terms of traded draft picks and a roster without attractive trading pieces like a 25 year-old Kevin Love.
At the end of the 2015 season, Minny and New York were in similar situations. I know Minnesota had Wiggins/ Lavine and all their picks but they were similar situations. T wolves truly tanked the end of the year while the Knicks won meaningless games that bumped them to 4th. Both teams still came away with 2 franchise talents from the 2015 draft.
Fast forward 2 years and compare the 2. T Wolves have an elite head coach. The Knicks are on their 3rd coach in 2 years and zero direction as a franchise. Minny acquired Jimmy Butler, Jeff Teague, Justin Patton and Taj Gibson this offseason. Along with an extra 1st round pick from Utah. They also own all their future picks and didn't try to trade KAT.
2 Franchises going in complete different directions over 2 years.
I completely disagree that these teams were in similar situations... that's not even remotely true. The T'Wolves have whiffed on a bunch of really high picks (Flynn, Wesley Johnson, Derrick Williams), yet still were in a better position than the Knicks because they've ALWAYS had their picks.
KAT joined a team that already had 4 T'Wolves first round picks on it and that doesn't even include Andrew Wiggins.
KP joined a team that had Jerian Grant.
That's a big difference in assets and upside. Sure the Knicks could've gotten Thibs. Would they be able to trade for Jimmy Butler? No. They don't even have the assets to match the substandard return the Bulls got. I know people hate Phil Jackson, but I seriously doubt even the best of front office people would've turned the Knicks around in 3+ years because they all would've been dealing with the same issue of depleted assets in terms of traded draft picks and a roster without attractive trading pieces like a 25 year-old Kevin Love.
And the Knicks had Carmelo who was a year away from finishing 3rd in the MVP voting. Situations aren't all that different.
My overall point is even a dreaful franchise can turn it around with the right leadership. The Knicks don't have that leadership. Every trade/ contract/ signing sucks for the team.
And the Knicks had Carmelo who was a year away from finishing 3rd in the MVP voting. Situations aren't all that different.
My overall point is even a dreaful franchise can turn it around with the right leadership. The Knicks don't have that leadership. Every trade/ contract/ signing sucks for the team.
Whatever one thinks of Phil, he was severely hamstrung by decisions made before he took the job. IMO, the ONLY thing Phil could've done to drastically change the direction of the franchise over the course of 3+ years was to trade Melo immediately. But how many people thought he should do that? I know I didn't.
Everywhere I go, I hear everybody say
What you gonna do to make that team play
From the folks in the street at 34th and 6th
Everyone who calls says, Hey man, fix the Knicks
(Chorus)
Fix the Knicks and make them shine
Get em to win like its 69
Hitting all their free throws and no more shooting bricks
Time to get it right and fix the Knicks
Doing my best and thats my problem
I check with my friend called Isiah Thomas
Pay no mind to those nasty critics
They havent done a thing to fix the Knicks
(Chorus)
We know were getting better, but still no respect
We score a lot of points, but wheres the defense?
Everyones an expert saying Trade your draft picks
You got to get this guy to fix the Knicks
(Chorus)
At this point Morey can't take anything less than a total fleecing of
And the Knicks had Carmelo who was a year away from finishing 3rd in the MVP voting. Situations aren't all that different.
My overall point is even a dreaful franchise can turn it around with the right leadership. The Knicks don't have that leadership. Every trade/ contract/ signing sucks for the team.
Whatever one thinks of Phil, he was severely hamstrung by decisions made before he took the job. IMO, the ONLY thing Phil could've done to drastically change the direction of the franchise over the course of 3+ years was to trade Melo immediately. But how many people thought he should do that? I know I didn't.
Not having draft picks in 2014 and 2016 definitely hurt and probably preventing you from truly rebuilding/tanking. But does anyone believe Phil would have gone through a full rebuild?
Trading Carmelo would have been unpopular and hard to do. But thats what good GMs do. Phil's bad trades is what really hurt the Knicks. He didn't make one good trade. And he definitely could have moved Melo in a sign and trade to get some assets. He was just really bad at his job.
Not having draft picks in 2014 and 2016 definitely hurt and probably preventing you from truly rebuilding/tanking. But does anyone believe Phil would have gone through a full rebuild?
Trading Carmelo would have been unpopular and hard to do. But thats what good GMs do. Phil's bad trades is what really hurt the Knicks. He didn't make one good trade. And he definitely could have moved Melo in a sign and trade to get some assets. He was just really bad at his job.
That leads to the next question of whether Dolan would've allowed Phil to trade Melo 12+ months after he finished top 3 in the MVP voting. Phil was in control, but just like anywhere else, the owner can still make the final decision whenever he wants (like he did when he killed the Rambis head coach idea).
Keeping 1st round picks is hardly a guarantee for success (see some of the AWFUL lottery picks made by Sacramento), but they're extremely valuable assets. Even a guy who hasn't shown much like Kris Dunn has value. We could complain about the coaches, the triangle, the Noah contract, or the return for Tyson Chandler, but think about the players who were drafted in 2014 and 2016 in their spots (Saric and Jamal Murray)... how different would the Knicks look with those guys on the roster? Keep in mind, those 2 weren't even the best players the Knicks could've selected there.
Chris Paul on the possibility of Melo joining Houston- "Man just sit back and wait".
Based off the Baker and THJ contracts, hard to have any faith in Mills or whoever is running things to get a decent return. What a disappointing offseason for the Knicks.
RE: Executive Chairman of Madison Square Garden Comments
Everywhere I go, I hear everybody say
What you gonna do to make that team play
From the folks in the street at 34th and 6th
Everyone who calls says, Hey man, fix the Knicks
(Chorus)
Fix the Knicks and make them shine
Get em to win like its 69
Hitting all their free throws and no more shooting bricks
Time to get it right and fix the Knicks
Doing my best and thats my problem
I check with my friend called Isiah Thomas
Pay no mind to those nasty critics
They havent done a thing to fix the Knicks
(Chorus)
We know were getting better, but still no respect
We score a lot of points, but wheres the defense?
Everyones an expert saying Trade your draft picks
You got to get this guy to fix the Knicks
(Chorus)
I'd question whether this is actually true. But it has to be. It just has to be.
I want Dolan dead. I'm not afraid to say it. Damn me to hell for all I care. I'll burn for all eternity for knicks nation.
37 pts and 7 steals. I know it's summer league but he is draining long threes draining jumpers of the dribble and finishing at the room, but it does not matter because we have frenchy and Baker running the show.
37 pts and 7 steals. I know it's summer league but he is draining long threes draining jumpers of the dribble and finishing at the room, but it does not matter because we have frenchy and Baker running the show.
He looks awesome. Still it's summer league. But the Jazz lose Heyward for nothing and still have a better offseason than the Knicks.
Should I wish him to go broke? Better yet I wish that Dolan would find peace and joy and enlightenment -- enough enlightenment as to sway his mindset and lifestyle away from corporate msg land. He can go off the grid and live a self sustained life. Hunt and gather. That's better.
37 pts and 7 steals. I know it's summer league but he is draining long threes draining jumpers of the dribble and finishing at the room, but it does not matter because we have frenchy and Baker running the show.
you do realize summer league has 90 percent d league players right?
The Nate Robinson joke is ridiculous Mitchell is 6 3 with 6 10 win span and a highly rated prospect who plays shut down defense and is known to be a workaholic. His shot has improved so much in 2 years you can tell he is putting in the work. Just watch the film.
The Nate Robinson joke is ridiculous Mitchell is 6 3 with 6 10 win span and a highly rated prospect who plays shut down defense and is known to be a workaholic. His shot has improved so much in 2 years you can tell he is putting in the work. Just watch the film.
watxhing youtube highlights doesnt count as watching film...
Let's see what people think, even though you have not seen Frank, is there anyone here who would not give up Frank straight up right now for Mitchell? Link - ( New Window )
I have seen plenty of Mitchell besides summer league, if you can somehow search pre draft archives I talked about him before draft as a big upside guy and someone knicks should draft. He improved his 3 or shooting dramatically in college after one year.
37 pts and 7 steals. I know it's summer league but he is draining long threes draining jumpers of the dribble and finishing at the room, but it does not matter because we have frenchy and Baker running the show.
you do realize summer league has 90 percent d league players right?
Did he get hurt during the first scrimmage? It's strange we haven't heard anything at all about how he's looked. Really, the only positive thing I've heard about him is that he shot 79% on a stupid 3-pt drill the Knicks runs.
Oh, and that Fran, the champion of all foreign players, thinks he will be solid after a couple of years of development. Great.
Now we have someone more suited to run a hedge fund dishing out money like it's monopoly and we are supposed to feel confident about moves made by Knicks?
I know Phil drafted Frenchy, still....
RE: When is Frenchy having microfracture surgery again?
Did he get hurt during the first scrimmage? It's strange we haven't heard anything at all about how he's looked. Really, the only positive thing I've heard about him is that he shot 79% on a stupid 3-pt drill the Knicks runs.
Oh, and that Fran, the champion of all foreign players, thinks he will be solid after a couple of years of development. Great.
Now we have someone more suited to run a hedge fund dishing out money like it's monopoly and we are supposed to feel confident about moves made by Knicks?
I know Phil drafted Frenchy, still....
what are you talking about?
he bumped knees in game 5 of his championships and it was sore so the knicks held him out, you know same thing lakers are doing with ingram and ball..
also why would you hear anything there are no team workouts now...
Will be out for blood when there are young players were passed on who have bigger upside who are more ready than Frank. It's logical that we as fans should want the organization to be smart enough to draft a player with the biggest upside and also able to make an impact. I don't think that's a lot to ask. I think it's a joke that I can say with confidence that 90 % of rabid Knicks fans could have run the organization better than the front office over the past 15 years, which is sad.
Will be out for blood when there are young players were passed on who have bigger upside who are more ready than Frank. It's logical that we as fans should want the organization to be smart enough to draft a player with the biggest upside and also able to make an impact. I don't think that's a lot to ask. I think it's a joke that I can say with confidence that 90 % of rabid Knicks fans could have run the organization better than the front office over the past 15 years, which is sad.
Hold on. You're saying Frankie French wasn't your choice candidate for the pick?
He got the same amount per year as THJR except only for a year :'(
Brian WindhorstVerified account @WindhorstESPN
Kentavious Caldwell-Pope has agreed to a one-year, $18 million deal with the Lakers, sources tell ESPN.
RE: He got the same amount per year as THJR except only for a year :'(
Brian WindhorstVerified account @WindhorstESPN
Kentavious Caldwell-Pope has agreed to a one-year, $18 million deal with the Lakers, sources tell ESPN.
Adrian WojnarowskiVerified account @wojespn
Adrian Wojnarowski Retweeted Adrian Wojnarowski
Sources: Despite committing $18M for Caldwell-Pope, Lakers still trying to find a way to sign Rondo. Lakers have a $4.3M exception to use.
Good thing we used that money to sign Ron Baker
RE: RE: Executive Chairman of Madison Square Garden Comments
Fix the Knicks! Oh, man. Fix the Knicks! Dolan told Deadspin. Everybody makes mistakes! I make mistakes. That was one of my mistakes. I thought I could appease the hungry masses with it. I was just thinking, well, maybe we could just write a song about it and then it will go away. That was wrong. Fortunately, nobody bought the album.
MSG used to be a Garden of delight in the early '70's...now, the pit of Hell. As Dante said, "Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate".
RE: He got the same amount per year as THJR except only for a year :'(
Brian WindhorstVerified account @WindhorstESPN
Kentavious Caldwell-Pope has agreed to a one-year, $18 million deal with the Lakers, sources tell ESPN.
Too early to judge the new Lakers front office. Pelinka's experience as an agent might give him a leg up on other GM's when it comes to managing the cap, and offering smarter contracts. At least they're not handing out obviously atrocious deals like the Mozgov deal.
RE: RE: He got the same amount per year as THJR except only for a year :'(
Brian WindhorstVerified account @WindhorstESPN
Kentavious Caldwell-Pope has agreed to a one-year, $18 million deal with the Lakers, sources tell ESPN.
Adrian WojnarowskiVerified account @wojespn
Adrian Wojnarowski Retweeted Adrian Wojnarowski
Sources: Despite committing $18M for Caldwell-Pope, Lakers still trying to find a way to sign Rondo. Lakers have a $4.3M exception to use.
Good thing we used that money to sign Ron Baker
The only problem is that for the lakers. If Caldwell pope plays good. Then they are in a crummy position. They most likely have to pay him more than Hardaway. Or he ends up posting 14-17 ppg 4 and 3 and ends up getting a deal around timmys from a different team next year. If lakers had him locked in for 2 years with a team option. Then I could see being annoyed. However. I am not a fan of KCP at all
Donovan Mitchell does it again
GMEN46 : 7/11/2017 7:09 pm : link : reply
37 pts and 7 steals. I know it's summer league but he is draining long threes draining jumpers of the dribble and finishing at the room, but it does not matter because we have frenchy and Baker running the show.
And Jimmer Fredette was a D-League star throwing in 37 points and 8 assists in his very first game there!
So many questions. Why use your exception when he's restricted? This deal was agreed to right when free agency started - why not see who else you can get for that $9 million? Why a player option for what is a completely unproven player? What number did Baker's agent START negotiations with that they ended up at $9 million? Does Steve Mills have special needs? Is this guy even in the league in 2 years? Even though the financial impact is relatively small, this might be among the dumbest things this team has ever done. And that's saying something.
the untelligent part is trying to use the Summer League as the basis for saying a player is going to be good or that it translates to success.
You know how many guys are out there like Mitchell (or Jimmer) who light it up at the lower level and then get to the NBA and throw up miniscule averages and can't get off the end of the bench?
but Jimmer was a lottery pick just like Mitchell. So in theory someone (and im sure they did) on this board could have said the same things about Jimmer. And how the Knicks should have moved up to get him. Again im not saying they are similar in any way, but at this point its not a baseless comparison.
Donovoan mitchell is an athletic beast, Jimmie Fredette has no athletic ability whatsoever besides being able to shoot very well. He can't guard people. It's not just summer league. I have ACC basketball to use as well.
at the Baker signing then i was at the THJR signing. It just makes no sense on so many levels. The biggest being the PO. As many pointed out yesterday the PO removes any upside to this deal. Im about as optimistic as they come for a knicks fan, but this offseason is really making it hard. Its obvious that Mills has no idea how to negotiate or evaluate talent. I cannot even think anymore about what we are going to get for Melo. At this point im expecting us to somehow end up with Anderson, Evan Turner, and like Hartenstein for Lee and Melo. Im almost leaning towards hoping we keep Melo just because im scared of what contracts dumbass Mills will end up taking back.
So many questions. Why use your exception when he's restricted? This deal was agreed to right when free agency started - why not see who else you can get for that $9 million? Why a player option for what is a completely unproven player? What number did Baker's agent START negotiations with that they ended up at $9 million? Does Steve Mills have special needs? Is this guy even in the league in 2 years? Even though the financial impact is relatively small, this might be among the dumbest things this team has ever done. And that's saying something.
he was not restricted, knicks renounced his rights tmwhen they signed hardaway
at the Baker signing then i was at the THJR signing. It just makes no sense on so many levels. The biggest being the PO. As many pointed out yesterday the PO removes any upside to this deal. Im about as optimistic as they come for a knicks fan, but this offseason is really making it hard. Its obvious that Mills has no idea how to negotiate or evaluate talent. I cannot even think anymore about what we are going to get for Melo. At this point im expecting us to somehow end up with Anderson, Evan Turner, and like Hartenstein for Lee and Melo. Im almost leaning towards hoping we keep Melo just because im scared of what contracts dumbass Mills will end up taking back.
i am actually more scared what happens if the knicks actually open cap room
First of all, I am sure 95% of those commenting never saw him play a game. Secondly, I am sure 90% of those never watched European basketball. And thirdly, the negativism is largely based on how a couple of guys played in Summer League.
Frank is 18 and will develop but will need time and patience. Take a look at this video from well respected site Draft Express to get an unbiased view of the kid.
one thing I found abundantly clear watching 3-4 full games of Frank's is he's simply not NBA ready to play major, major minutes. If he played any other position than PG I would say "who cares? Winning isn't a big deal this season" but because of KP/Willy it matters and is a concern.
Dan, he is 2-3 years away from major minutes whereas the other guys that we passed are ready to go right now and have more upside. Frank may be very good, but why am I waiting 2-3 years for that when there are guys with higher upside who are ready to go right now? This is my point that I keep getting ripped on. What is the defense for that decision?
The issue with Frank is that, as noted, he's probably not ready for
Dan, he is 2-3 years away from major minutes whereas the other guys that we passed are ready to go right now and have more upside. Frank may be very good, but why am I waiting 2-3 years for that when there are guys with higher upside who are ready to go right now? This is my point that I keep getting ripped on. What is the defense for that decision?
because who cares if they are better right away...
you are not drafting for right now, you are draftimg for a couple of years from now...
not evwry supserstar that comes in plays great right away, you are killing frank because he is not nba ready yet, he is 18 fucking years old...
stop talking like you know how these guys are going to turn out, you have no idea, you can gave an opinion but stop lecturing all of us on how you watched film and know what mitchell will be, you dont know shit...
Dan, he is 2-3 years away from major minutes whereas the other guys that we passed are ready to go right now and have more upside. Frank may be very good, but why am I waiting 2-3 years for that when there are guys with higher upside who are ready to go right now? This is my point that I keep getting ripped on. What is the defense for that decision?
You're getting ripped because you say things as if it's a fact. It's not. Frank has incredible upside even if you don't see it. Numerous scouts and observers have said so.
Just fucking wait it out.
RE: The issue with Frank is that, as noted, he's probably not ready for
minutes while Mitchell and Smith Jr definitely seem to be ready to contribute right now.
And this is possible bullshit too. Define contribute? Who knows how good Smith/Mitchell are by this November. Who knows if Frank isn't ready to make an impact by the same time. Why can't Frank play 20 min a night? Because he's raw and skinny? No one knows. KP wasn't ready either.
but the suggestion that Frank cannot become a better ball handler is about as ridiculous of a statement as you can make. It's not an ability that you are born with, it's something that every single player works on and can improve on. It's a physical ability. You don't cap out on your ball handling at 24 years old.
flaw in the people opining about Frank is that they literally have nothing to go on but highlights they've seen in the past few weeks.
But they act like they are experts on his future contributions. Good parallel to KP there. I thought he was too skinny and raw to play in the NBA and that was based on highlights from Euro games where he stayed on the perimeter. Man, that was dead wrong.
RE: RE: The issue with Frank is that, as noted, he's probably not ready for
minutes while Mitchell and Smith Jr definitely seem to be ready to contribute right now.
And this is possible bullshit too. Define contribute? Who knows how good Smith/Mitchell are by this November. Who knows if Frank isn't ready to make an impact by the same time. Why can't Frank play 20 min a night? Because he's raw and skinny? No one knows. KP wasn't ready either.
This isn't a fair comparison. KP put up solid numbers in the #2 league in the world. Regarded as a higher level of ball than NCAA. Frank played in a far lower league and even those who really like him (like Fraschilla) and the Knicks (on record looking for a veteran PG) are acknowledging it's going to take some time. If you watched him play you would see an interesting skillset but not NBA ready. Labeyrie (his own teammate) (and adversary in France) praised him but noted he's not yet on par with NBA players physically.
Jackson himself called him a project. I have no idea how he turns out but I'm very confident in saying he's not going to be a starting NBA PG quality player initially. He's just not.
flaw in the people opining about Frank is that they literally have nothing to go on but highlights they've seen in the past few weeks.
But they act like they are experts on his future contributions. Good parallel to KP there. I thought he was too skinny and raw to play in the NBA and that was based on highlights from Euro games where he stayed on the perimeter. Man, that was dead wrong.
Again this isn't an apt comparison. KP is a freak of nature 7'3 kid who has unlimited range and unusual athleticism for a man his size. He played and contributed in the #2 league in the world. Frank played sparingly in a garbage league and more importantly his play directly impacts KP/Willy. Willy (for example) could have played like garbage this year and not impacted the development of KP. Major, major difference when it comes to PG or any other position.
Jackson himself called him a project. I have no idea how he turns out but I'm very confident in saying he's not going to be a starting NBA PG quality player initially. He's just not.
^this, i am on of franks biggest fans on here and even i dont think he will log major minutes at the point for a couple of years...
i think he is a versatile 2 guard for right now, more than likely a 3 and d guy until he gets his handle stronger...
RE: RE: The issue with Frank is that, as noted, he's probably not ready for
minutes while Mitchell and Smith Jr definitely seem to be ready to contribute right now.
And this is possible bullshit too. Define contribute? Who knows how good Smith/Mitchell are by this November. Who knows if Frank isn't ready to make an impact by the same time. Why can't Frank play 20 min a night? Because he's raw and skinny? No one knows. KP wasn't ready either.
That's fair. There's uncertainty. But we know that Frank is not the athlete that those guys are. Not at all. We'll see if his "feel for the game" can make up for that stuff. I wanted Smith JR with the pick. Odds that Frank matches DSJ's rookie year are pretty slim, IMO. He has talent but he wasn't dominating in the fucking french league. it's hard to believe that he'll be a contributor here right away. And he's also not a fucking unicorn. Playing guard is a lot more challenging in the NBA than if you're physically unlike any other player in the league, like KP is. There are lots of players with FN's athletic profile.
flaw in the people opining about Frank is that they literally have nothing to go on but highlights they've seen in the past few weeks.
But they act like they are experts on his future contributions. Good parallel to KP there. I thought he was too skinny and raw to play in the NBA and that was based on highlights from Euro games where he stayed on the perimeter. Man, that was dead wrong.
Again this isn't an apt comparison. KP is a freak of nature 7'3 kid who has unlimited range and unusual athleticism for a man his size. He played and contributed in the #2 league in the world. Frank played sparingly in a garbage league and more importantly his play directly impacts KP/Willy. Willy (for example) could have played like garbage this year and not impacted the development of KP. Major, major difference when it comes to PG or any other position.
i wouldnt say sparingly, he started and played 18 mins a game, kp came off the bench and played 20, granted in a better league..
willy for example played sparingly his last year in the acb...
RE: I've stayed out of these conversations for various reasons,
but the suggestion that Frank cannot become a better ball handler is about as ridiculous of a statement as you can make. It's not an ability that you are born with, it's something that every single player works on and can improve on. It's a physical ability. You don't cap out on your ball handling at 24 years old.
I've also read that some scouts believe that his first step could become a lot better from physical maturation and weight training. Basically, his legs need to get stronger before anyone decides that he doesnt have a great first step.
What excites me about Frank is that in addition to great side and good athleticism, and good shooting, all the reports on the intangibles are what you want to hear. It's so easy to just look at a guard and see the explosion etc. But there are a lot of physically gifted guards who arent guys that winning teams want to build around. Frank appears to be a gym rat, hard worker, and WILLING passer (not just a bail out passer like Rose). That's the stuff you need to be a winning player, and not just a talented player.
Jackson himself called him a project. I have no idea how he turns out but I'm very confident in saying he's not going to be a starting NBA PG quality player initially. He's just not.
^this, i am on of franks biggest fans on here and even i dont think he will log major minutes at the point for a couple of years...
i think he is a versatile 2 guard for right now, more than likely a 3 and d guy until he gets his handle stronger...
Ya never know with the Knicks but I could see Frank's initial role being closer to a 2 who runs the offense in stretches vs. a pure PG. They may feel more comfortable with him getting actual minutes at the 2 where if he struggles it doesn't hurt the rest of the team as much. He wasn't the primary ball handler for Strasbourg (at least not in the playoffs) that was Erving Walker aka fake Isiah Thomas/fake Nate.
Jackson himself called him a project. I have no idea how he turns out but I'm very confident in saying he's not going to be a starting NBA PG quality player initially. He's just not.
^this, i am on of franks biggest fans on here and even i dont think he will log major minutes at the point for a couple of years...
i think he is a versatile 2 guard for right now, more than likely a 3 and d guy until he gets his handle stronger...
Ya never know with the Knicks but I could see Frank's initial role being closer to a 2 who runs the offense in stretches vs. a pure PG. They may feel more comfortable with him getting actual minutes at the 2 where if he struggles it doesn't hurt the rest of the team as much. He wasn't the primary ball handler for Strasbourg (at least not in the playoffs) that was Erving Walker aka fake Isiah Thomas/fake Nate.
he was the primary in the u18 games where he was mvp but he was turnover prone
That's just quick twitch fiber. Either you are born with that or you aren't. That being said, being smart(savvy) and getting stronger will certainly help.
for one am not capping his upside at all but I'd be beyond shocked if he's playing major PG minutes for the Knicks to open the season and succeeding. Anyone who watched those games saw flashes of good and flashes of things he needs to work on. One thing worth noting is he was consistently in foul trouble vs. sub-NBA talent, he will need to learn on the job.
total BS but people are suggesting if the Rockets deal is truly imminent it will happen by Friday as CP3's presser is that day and presumably they would want to introduce them together. Still seems pretty odd players have made it sound like it will happen and yet NO rumors of players involved?
It's actually preferable if Frank is not ready to start
If the upside is there (even the Greek Freak did not take the NBA by storm) then it actually behooves the Knicks to develop their young talent, get another high lottery pick or two, and then in year 3 when Frank is all of 21, he might be ready to start and make an impact in the NBA.
There are a lot of theory's today that wingspan is a better indicator of NBA success than almost any other physical characteristic. And Frank, already a big PG at 6' 6' has an astounding 7 ft wingspan. And he's 18.
total BS but people are suggesting if the Rockets deal is truly imminent it will happen by Friday as CP3's presser is that day and presumably they would want to introduce them together. Still seems pretty odd players have made it sound like it will happen and yet NO rumors of players involved?
Maybe the stars (CP3/Harden and Melo) are all "demanding" it behind the scenes a la Lebron with the Love deal.
apparently has scouts raving, I'm sure Portland is eager to dump Leonard and his crappy contract. Leonard was healthy for the first time in 4 seasons and yet flat sucked
leonard to a third team without giving said team an asset to take him. So i guess we are taking Harkless/Leonard in the deal to make salary work and then whatever morey throws in cause he feels bad for us.
Tommy BeerVerified account @TommyBeer 3m3 minutes ago
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Tommy Beer Retweeted Adrian Wojnarowski
Will be interesting to see if NY waits until completion of Melo trade before signing Ron Baker
Waiting could potentially save room exception
leonard to a third team without giving said team an asset to take him. So i guess we are taking Harkless/Leonard in the deal to make salary work and then whatever morey throws in cause he feels bad for us.
Yuck. Leonard owed 31.7 million, Harkness 31 million and the Knicks will be just good enough to win 31-33 games and pick 7th.
Tommy BeerVerified account @TommyBeer 3m3 minutes ago
More
Tommy Beer Retweeted Adrian Wojnarowski
Will be interesting to see if NY waits until completion of Melo trade before signing Ron Baker
Waiting could potentially save room exception
was just about to post this, if knicks wait to announce this, then we know they are waoting to do melo deal...
basketball expert Stephon Marbury really talked up Qi and Ding (the Chinese kid Dallas has). Maybe the post-Yao China boom we saw for a bit is coming back?
i have is that the knicks somewhat like the pieces they are getting back. Otherwise why not just trade him to CLE for expirings and Osman. Why deal with Anderson, harkless, leonard, etc.... CLE can easily make a deal with expirings. Now i know we have zero faith in the FO, which is why i said "tiny glimmer"
i have is that the knicks somewhat like the pieces they are getting back. Otherwise why not just trade him to CLE for expirings and Osman. Why deal with Anderson, harkless, leonard, etc.... CLE can easily make a deal with expirings. Now i know we have zero faith in the FO, which is why i said "tiny glimmer"
the good news knicks didnt say ok houston anderson and gordon done deal...
if it is 4 teams they are at least
hopefully pawning off anderson and leonard somewhere else, i am ok takong harklesz and a pick...
is harkless. His contract isnt horrible and he still has some upside. If nothing else he is a useful NBA player (unlike leonard). If its harkless and some youth or picks ill be content. Plus once we trade melo we have a pretty big hole at SF. At least harkless can fill that and is still only 24
yeah i know he is young. I was more clarifying that i didnt want him to be the only asset we are getting. And if he was still on a rookie deal or something id be much happier with him.
yeah i know he is young. I was more clarifying that i didnt want him to be the only asset we are getting. And if he was still on a rookie deal or something id be much happier with him.
Possible? yep. likely? Meh. I do think it's a good sign that it's taking some time to come to a deal. There's all kinds of shitty options that are available. I just hope that they have the guts to pass on a deal and keep Melo if they can't get value out of trading him. His contract looks less and less ridiculous every offseason now. They shouldn't just give him away.
for Anderson? By how much is he really overpaid? His contract sucks but if assets are being thrown in so that someone will take his deal - I'd have to at least consider just taking him and the assets for myself, along with whatever else is coming back.
At least he's a productive NBA player with a high level skill that would not diminish over the next 3 years.
Frank/Smith Jr/Mitchell argument, but I have to chime in.
Who knows what they all ultimately amount to and it's early to get too hyped up (of course I'd prefer my rookie draft picks outperform the summer league competition than not).
That said, the reason why I personally didnt love the pick is because the expert analysis (at least that I heard) on ESPN the night of the draft from Jay Bilas and a few others, is that Frank's ceiling was described as "solid pro". Forget about superstar or franchise player for a moment, I didnt even hear anything about impact or all star or anything on that level.
I understand they were picking 8th, but with 2-3 guys who project at that level or beyond, I would have aimed higher.
Peter Vecsey ✔@PeterVecsey1
Don't pretend 2B wired anymore. Still, I am told Melo-Rockets trade holdup is D'Antoni. Does not want him. Melo knows! It'll happen anyway!
Peter Vecsey ✔@PeterVecsey1
Don't pretend 2B wired anymore. Still, I am told Melo-Rockets trade holdup is D'Antoni. Does not want him. Melo knows! It'll happen anyway!
why would morey keep pushing for a trade if his head coach did not want it? that doesnt make much sense
Peter Vecsey ✔@PeterVecsey1
Don't pretend 2B wired anymore. Still, I am told Melo-Rockets trade holdup is D'Antoni. Does not want him. Melo knows! It'll happen anyway!
why would morey keep pushing for a trade if his head coach did not want it? that doesnt make much sense
That's Morey being Morey. I'm sure as an advanced metrics guy, he doesn't think the coach matters that much either.
Peter Vecsey ✔@PeterVecsey1
Don't pretend 2B wired anymore. Still, I am told Melo-Rockets trade holdup is D'Antoni. Does not want him. Melo knows! It'll happen anyway!
why would morey keep pushing for a trade if his head coach did not want it? that doesnt make much sense
Promise to CP3? Belief that players matter more than coaches?
in four-team trade, even if it is the best one of the whole group. I bet Lee or O'Quinn wind up elsewhere, too. It better not be draft picks going elsewhere.
can someone speculate on the parameters of the trade
for us fans that dont know every single player in the NBA?
No one really knows. It's all just speculation. But the Rockets don't have a lot to trade, and what they have which is good, like Clint Capela and the Chinese prospect Qi, is stuff they want to keep very much.
and you obviously have to weigh the considerations of any potential 3rd or 4th partners in the deal, but let's hope Mills explains to Houston, I understand you want to keep a guy like Qi in the pipeline but this is Carmelo Anthony we're talking about. This is still a top 20 guy in the league and when healthy and motivated probably higher than that.
used to be that guy, but he's not that guy anymore. He's a secondary scorer now. His shots are getting further and further from the basket. He's never been in great shape and since the knee injury, he's gotten worse. I don't envision him regaining that ability because he's a shooter now as opposed to a scorer. Can he be a top 20 scorer for Houston? I guess so, but I'd bet against it. Last year he was like 25th and he was very inefficient. He was also the focal point of the offense whereas now there are 2 other key players, including one of the best scorers in the game.
that wouldn't stop teams from inquiring. Not many teams want this current version of Carmelo that makes superstar money, still thinks he's a superstar and plays like a solid secondary scorer.
Frank/Smith Jr/Mitchell argument, but I have to chime in.
Who knows what they all ultimately amount to and it's early to get too hyped up (of course I'd prefer my rookie draft picks outperform the summer league competition than not).
That said, the reason why I personally didnt love the pick is because the expert analysis (at least that I heard) on ESPN the night of the draft from Jay Bilas and a few others, is that Frank's ceiling was described as "solid pro". Forget about superstar or franchise player for a moment, I didnt even hear anything about impact or all star or anything on that level.
I understand they were picking 8th, but with 2-3 guys who project at that level or beyond, I would have aimed higher.
I'd be wary about relying on Jay BIlas's opinion on a French leaguer. I cant fathom that he scouted Frank or knows much about him.
I dont really understand the low ceiling opinions on Frank. Somehow "doesnt have an explosive first step" turned into a consensus that he's an average athlete etc.
He's a very good athlete with an under developed frame. Very common for Euros. Physically and athletically he has a great ceiling, especially because he has the physical tools to be a great defender (isnt one now). Whereas DSJ better be Baron Davis on offense because his defensive potential is limited.
to expand his NTC is to just sit him for the duration of his contract. He'll get paid but sitting on the bench for 2 years is probably not something that he'd want to do.
If Melo made it clear it's Houston or Cleveland, teams aren't gonna waste their time. Off the top of my head, Miami, Washington, Toronto, Boston, Charlotte, Minnesota, San Antonio, OKC, Utah, Milwaukee would've all put a call in, and maybe did.
a great college analyst, maybe even the best, but you can't really take his opinion as worth more than any other talking head when it comes to European prospects. He'll always pick the US college player prospect over the European guy.
The low ceiling stuff on Frank given his attributes doesn't really make sense to me. ESPN's analytics/538 group (while rating Frank as the 12th% best prospect) give him the highest odds in the entire draft to be an all-star in years 2-5. It also gives him the highest odds to not be a starter. A classic "boom-bust" pick. Link included at the bottom of my post.
It's hard to compare his stats to college players because it's not an apples to apples comparison:
""If he was on a different team, he would definitely average more points, because right now he's only playing 20 minutes," Travis says. "Those guys in college, they're playing 30-plus minutes, they're getting any shot they want. That's not how we play.
"Coach wants our guards to play structured and controlled -- that's what Frank does.""
They don't love the draft pick of an 18 year old PG who is 6'5 with the huge wing span. A kid who is universally considered to be well adjusted and mature, known for a great work ethic. Very good outside shot and comes with a defensive first mind set.
Frank checks off every box that this franchise and notably KP, sorely needs. We don't need a guy that can dazzle with highlight reel quicks or thunderous dunks. We need a guy like frank who reaches his potential.
knicks and rockets feel comfortable they have a 3rd team and that part is done, there is one player that neither houston or knicks will take and are lookong for a 4th team to take that contract...
he makes it sound like that is the last step...
there is an article but on my phone if someone can poat it
to expand his NTC is to just sit him for the duration of his contract. He'll get paid but sitting on the bench for 2 years is probably not something that he'd want to do.
Worse than sitting would be no special treatment. Sit him when his effort is low, or when he doesnt play within the schemes. Yell at him during stoppages like everyone else, on camera. Brutal honesty in post game press conferences.
knicks and rockets feel comfortable they have a 3rd team and that part is done, there is one player that neither houston or knicks will take and are lookong for a 4th team to take that contract...
he makes it sound like that is the last step...
there is an article but on my phone if someone can poat it
Uggh. Someone else is going to get assets for renting out their cap space. If should have been us. We should have done the Carroll trade.
knicks and rockets feel comfortable they have a 3rd team and that part is done, there is one player that neither houston or knicks will take and are lookong for a 4th team to take that contract...
he makes it sound like that is the last step...
there is an article but on my phone if someone can poat it
for context, the Blazers aren't even sure Leonard will be part of their rotation if he's on the team. That's how bad he's been. 5 years in the league, high pick and the Blazers never saw fit giving him significant burn (and they are a well run franchise having made the playoffs 7 of the past 9 seasons and having drafted and developed Lillard, Aldridge, McCollum, Batum (drafted by the Rockets at request of the Blazers, developed by the Blazers), Patty Mills, Crabbe etc
The low ceiling stuff on Frank given his attributes doesn't really make sense to me. ESPN's analytics/538 group (while rating Frank as the 12th% best prospect) give him the highest odds in the entire draft to be an all-star in years 2-5. It also gives him the highest odds to not be a starter. A classic "boom-bust" pick. Link included at the bottom of my post.
I recall reading when that came out that the wide range of outcomes their model had on Frank was less of a boom-or-bust issue and more of a lack of data issue (due to low minutes, and maybe league issues). Frank shouldnt be boom or bust since he's got a number of viable ways to make a rotation -- even if he doesnt full pan out his frame could let him be a defensive specialist, or his 3 point shot could be real and he could be a shooting guard (including reserve). Whereas guys who have problem shots and defensively-limiting frames are maybe more likely to be total washouts.
for context, the Blazers aren't even sure Leonard will be part of their rotation if he's on the team. That's how bad he's been. 5 years in the league, high pick and the Blazers never saw fit giving him significant burn (and they are a well run franchise having made the playoffs 7 of the past 9 seasons and having drafted and developed Lillard, Aldridge, McCollum, Batum (drafted by the Rockets at request of the Blazers, developed by the Blazers), Patty Mills, Crabbe etc
I know nothing about Leonard. What is keeping him from more significant minutes? The shooting? Defense? Other?
for context, the Blazers aren't even sure Leonard will be part of their rotation if he's on the team. That's how bad he's been. 5 years in the league, high pick and the Blazers never saw fit giving him significant burn (and they are a well run franchise having made the playoffs 7 of the past 9 seasons and having drafted and developed Lillard, Aldridge, McCollum, Batum (drafted by the Rockets at request of the Blazers, developed by the Blazers), Patty Mills, Crabbe etc
I know nothing about Leonard. What is keeping him from more significant minutes? The shooting? Defense? Other?
Previously the issue was health. ALWAYS dinged but this year he managed to play 74 games and stunk. His shooting % is a bit misleading as he has an extremely slow release so while he can knock down 3's he only takes wide open shots. He himself acknowledged his release issue
"There have been a lot of little, intricate things Drew has pointed out that helps me build a better shot routine. Hopefully that transitions into games to where I just feel really good with what Im doing and how Im doing it."
He managed to shoot a combined 39% from the field which is tough to do at his size. He's also has had back problems off and on. Any time I've seen him play he struck me as one of those classic "looks the part" but has never put it together and if anything has gone backwards. He'd be a nice player to gamble on at low money but with his owed money I wouldn't touch him with a 10 foot pole. Stotts has already said he has to earn a spot in the rotation. Players going into year 6 shouldn't be in that spot.
I like the youth movement, just not sure about Baker and Hardaway being part of it at those prices. I like moving Melo rather than buying him out, I just wonder if the Knicks definition of returning assets differs from ours and the rest of the free world's. But I'll prepare for the worst.
As bad as Mudiay has been this is a no-brainer. That said, Mudiay has been shockingly bad defensively which I guess is more fixable than his shot but to be that bad on defense as such a great athlete is scary. But yeah Mudiay over Napier 10/10 times.
of Shabazz's... one of the contenders is going to get Muhammad ultra cheap aren't they? I'm not a fan of his game but he's going to land in Cleveland or SA and be a nice spark, or with Pat the Rat.
RE: There aren't any PGs coming the Knicks way from Houston or Portland
doesn't seem like a Spurs type player. Mediocre rebounder, awful passer (as in he doesn't know what the word means).
That said, I can see some other contender that needs some offense from their 2nd unit getting him cheap and making it work. He's like a poor man's JR Smith.
Both two-way and affiliate players are capped at $50,000 in partial guarantees. If a player earns a partial guarantee for greater than $50,000, then they cannot be a two-way or affiliate player for that season. This is new information for the upcoming season, but Tuesday a new nugget was thrown into the mix and I have dubbed it the 50K Rule.
The 50K Rule any player who earns more than $50,000 from an NBA team via training camp partial guarantee cannot play for that teams G League affiliate for the following season.
Now, things are getting muddy. Try to follow me here. In the past it did not matter what players were partially guaranteed at camp. If they were waived they could play for that franchises G League team as an affiliate player (subject to a four player max). Now, that is clearly not the case. This will limit how much players can earn before moving to the paltry salaries of the G League, and it sucks. Link - ( New Window )
Acquiring Melo and banking on him being olympic Melo with LeBron and Kyrie is pretty much the only hope Cleveland has at competing with the KD version of GS.
I've said it before but I'm to the point as a Knicks fan where I just want to actually care about players being in foul trouble late. Get me to that point again, thanks.
A deal that would end the Carmelo Anthony era in New York and reunite the All Star forward with Mike D'Antoni in Houston "is at the two yard line" a person familiar with the trade negotiations told the Daily News.
On Wednesday, ESPN reported that the Knicks and Rockets are trying to recruit a fourth team into a proposed deal to facilitate a blockbuster trade. The deal needs to be expanded due to Anthony's contract and the fact that the Knicks are opposed to acquiring Rockets forward Ryan Anderson.
The Knicks plan is to avoid adding veteran players with long term contracts.
calling BS but I don't see anyone else citing this Woj/Cavs report, Knicks Reddit or retweeting it on twitter.
I think someone took the line "The Cavaliers haven't abandoned pursuit of Anthony, league sources said." in his ESPN article this afternoon to mean they're making a "late push" Sources: Knicks, Rockets working on Carmelo Anthony trade scenarios - ( New Window )
that's a pretty big hangup. I guess Morey has someone lined up for that piece, or it wouldnt be at the 2 yard line.
Something decent better be coming back. Not expecting much, but borderline rotation guys who have already been extended dont excite me. I'd just as soon hold on to Melo and revisit a trade next week or during the season.
this point I'd be pleasantly surprised if they come away with Harkless. No snark but I'm expecting a really poor return of filler and possibly a guy with a bad deal like Leonard "He was a lotto pick 6 years ago!!!!"
RE: If the hang up is that they need a 4th team to take Anderson
that's a pretty big hangup. I guess Morey has someone lined up for that piece, or it wouldnt be at the 2 yard line.
Something decent better be coming back. Not expecting much, but borderline rotation guys who have already been extended dont excite me. I'd just as soon hold on to Melo and revisit a trade next week or during the season.
i dont think its anderson because woj said they had a 3rd team willing to help but there was 1 player that neither knicks nor houston wanted...
If the Knicks aren't getting any sort of asset back
why trade him? Just buy him out if your goal is to rid yourself of Melo. They have to feel like they are getting something of value, whether thats an asset or 2 or cap space.
why trade him? Just buy him out if your goal is to rid yourself of Melo. They have to feel like they are getting something of value, whether thats an asset or 2 or cap space.
I agree, but as an "ex-Knicks fan" I'm rooting for an absurdly stupid trade. Mills has shown he's capable of that.
But I am assuming if it's Portland that Knicks will get
Harkless
Ed Davis
Ariza expiring
Napier
Fill in contracts
Hopefully protected #1 but doubtful
Blazers
Ryan Anderson
But Blazers will need to get rid of more salary to make it worth it Leonard craabe or tuner have to be on their way out. I have to think it's turner or craabe to cut tax bill. In order for someone to take one of those awful contracts those has to start with a 1st and 2nd of you think about Carroll trade. Plus these contracts are a year longer than Carroll. What I am fearful is knicks will include lee and take on turner and get protected first which I am not sure about. Would rather trade lee at trade deadline to a contender for a future #1. There will be a contender that loses someone during the season and lee is a great fill in guy.
""It was me," Cuban said. "Donnie [Nelson] was like, 'OK, I'm putting my you-know-whats on the table.' He was doing the Sam Cassell, Nick Van Exel dance. ... It's all in. And I'm like, 'Donnie, we have this plan.' Because even as good as the Greek Freak has turned out to be, he was still three years away, and we wanted to try to get somebody who could help get us to the top right there and then. Didn't turn out that way, it is what it is, that happens."
and in his defense Dirk was still an elite player (and they were chasing stars) so they likely cared more about helping right away than they should have but GF legit took 3 years before he as anything special
I think most people would try to maximize the Dirk championship window. I dont think many people saw this level of development as a reasonable outcome.
Mostly, no. I don't think you'll find a Knicks fan that expects all that much. I would be fine with Harkless, Hartenstein and no long term contracts.
Agree with this. I'd rather get a draft pick (even though it likely will be bottom of round) than another bad contract
On the other hand, Houston has some assets of decent value and lost in the Phil Jackson soap opera is that a happy and motivated Carmelo Anthony can still play at a very high level.
With what Golden State has put together and how Boston has improved I'm surprised LeBron and Cleveland havent been more aggressively pursuing him.
Link - ( New Window )
he is the one supposedly running the search i dont think you will hear his name much...
seems like warkentein, gaines and mills are the ones running the basketball part
Mills is a businessman not a basketball guy. It's insane to be letting him run things. The Hardaway signing was 100% about impressing Dolan. I actually respect Griff more now for refusing to cave.
it just sucks becauae there are some young pieces on this team...
Insane.
yeah - good for Griffin for not selling out and coming here looking to half-ass it and collect a check like Phil did.
It's scary that a guy like Mills is currently running things. He has no business running the basketball side of an NBA team. He wouldn't even get an interview at any of the other teams.
my guess knicks told melo that they are working with houston and will get a deal done...
rockets told harden and paul that they will get houston...
knicks told lee they will not trade him because they are trading melo to houston (jsports) source
Insane.
The 15% trade kicker is just moronic. I could have even dealt with 4 years 58 - 60 mil. Would have been much easier pill to swallow
Quote:
his reason for taking his name out of the mix. Now we can stop scapegoating Phil Jackson and turn our attention to the real reason the Knicks have been so bad for so long - Dolan and his kiss-ass chorus. At this point, it's probably best to let Mills and Houston have all the power and watch them fail, rather than letting them continue to lurk in the shadows.
yeah - good for Griffin for not selling out and coming here looking to half-ass it and collect a check like Phil did.
It's scary that a guy like Mills is currently running things. He has no business running the basketball side of an NBA team. He wouldn't even get an interview at any of the other teams.
this is the part that sucks, no one who is worth a damn is coming to share basketball decisions with mills, no one...
in the end i bet they lromote houston with mills running the show...
my guess knicks told melo that they are working with houston and will get a deal done...
rockets told harden and paul that they will get houston...
knicks told lee they will not trade him because they are trading melo to houston (jsports) source
Give me Qi or no deal
Quote:
houston and knicks looking for 3rd team to take anderson, says still being told melo will be a rocket...
my guess knicks told melo that they are working with houston and will get a deal done...
rockets told harden and paul that they will get houston...
knicks told lee they will not trade him because they are trading melo to houston (jsports) source
Give me Qi or no deal
i dont think you are getting qi, maybe hartenstein and picks but not qi...
the problem with Anderson is that teams are looking for assets in return for taking on his contract - which will lessen the return going to NY.
Dwight Howard 2/23mm
Harrison Barnes 3/23mm
Chandler Parsons 3/24mm
Steven Adams 4/25mm
Nic Batum 4/25mm
Vic Olidipo 4/22mm
Ryan Anderson 3/21mm
Allan Crabbe 3/19mm
Wesley Matthews 2/19mm
Others:
Deng, Noah, Fournier, Turner, Mozgov, Mahimi, Bazemore, Jacksom, Biyumbo, Dragic.
Quote:
In comment 13524095 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
houston and knicks looking for 3rd team to take anderson, says still being told melo will be a rocket...
my guess knicks told melo that they are working with houston and will get a deal done...
rockets told harden and paul that they will get houston...
knicks told lee they will not trade him because they are trading melo to houston (jsports) source
Give me Qi or no deal
i dont think you are getting qi, maybe hartenstein and picks but not qi...
Then keep Melo and let him ride the pine. We don't HAVE to trade him
NYK gets: Harkless, rights to Sergio Llull, Meyers Leonard
Houston gives: Anderson, Hartenstein, Llull
Houston gets: Melo
Portland gives: Harkless, Leonard
Portland gets: Anderson, Hartenstein
They do have titles and all time greats and a playoff win in the current decade.. So the current iteration of the browns is still worse
Toss in picks, the Knicks way baby!
you will find someone, maybe the suns help, and the rockets throw them a pick?
maybe nets help and rockets throw them a pick...
i am sure they can find a team, good news is rockets and knicks are working together to make this work, which tells me knicks and rockets have their part done, just need a team to take anderson
Greg from LI : 9:03 am : link : reply
Ever? In any sport?
You have some franchises that haven't even tasted success and have been run terribly for long stretches. The Clippers, the Jags, the Expos/Nats, etc.
The Knicks might be the worst organization currently, but even that is debatable. They've at least made the postseason recently. Tell that to some of the hockey franchises that are stuck in the basement, or to the Bills, Browns and Titans.
Even teams like the Indians and Astros who are doing well now had periods like the Giants did in the 70's.
The NBA, with the emphasis on top-heavy teams demolishing the also-rans will make it look a lot worse, too. The Knicks are a poorly run franchise with a clueless owner, but they aren't unique in that aspect.
The Knicks are going to come out of this offseason with a completely capped situation for years to come. After trading Melos monster salary. Instead of signing THJ, why not take Andersen back and get all the assets instead of involving a 3rd team?
All that does is stop them from creating them for a little while.
They are so good at it...
Steve Mills vs Daryl Morey. What could go wrong?
Side note- since Morey was hired in 2007 the Knicks have had 6 GMs.
I hope for a team that can move the ball around and play together.
Next year is a tank year and hope some how the little white balls bounce in our favor.
Porter would be a nice fit next to Porzingis and Willy.
I don't think the bare minimum gets it done anymore. Whatever happens here, you know it's going to be bad.
Congrats to the Nets from going to 30 to 29.
I don't think the bare minimum gets it done anymore. Whatever happens here, you know it's going to be bad.
They keep lowering the bar on "bare minimum".
Link - ( New Window )
The issue is that this is the sign of a bigger problem. Either they weren't all that enamored with Griffin, which if that's the case why get as far into the process as they did, or Mills is seizing this opportunity to make a serious power play and we aren't going to be able to find a GM with any type of track record that is going to agree to coming in to answer to Steve Mills.
At this point we might be better off just letting Mills and Houston run the show, and if they fail then we can finally be rid of them and start to see real change. Who knows, maybe Mills will surprise us and do a good job. He has taken a lot of heat because of his close connection to Dolan, but we really don't know what type of job he will do as the head executive. He had a short stint before Phil arrived where he basically didn't do anything of note for 6 months. He was the one in charge when we almost dealt Shumpert and spare parts to Toronto for Lowry, which would have been a great move, but then Dolan vetoed it at the last second.
Even with the Hardaway contract, which I don't think is as terrible as others have made it seem, if we can walk away from this offseason with a new core of a PG, SG, PF, and C all under the age of 25 while also having gotten rid of Carmelo and Derrick Rose, then I would rate the offseason as a success. We now at least have a young nucleus with all of our draft picks going forward, and a roster that while filled with potential, isn't going to win shit this year and should put us in the top 5-6 picks in next years draft.
The only reason I'd just dump Melo is if they intended to tank, and I dont believe that they have that intent. I think they'll put Melo's money back into vets who will help this team win an extra 5-10 games.
Quote:
In comment 13524099 TommyWiseau said:
Quote:
In comment 13524095 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
houston and knicks looking for 3rd team to take anderson, says still being told melo will be a rocket...
my guess knicks told melo that they are working with houston and will get a deal done...
rockets told harden and paul that they will get houston...
knicks told lee they will not trade him because they are trading melo to houston (jsports) source
Give me Qi or no deal
i dont think you are getting qi, maybe hartenstein and picks but not qi...
Then keep Melo and let him ride the pine. We don't HAVE to trade him
Qi just signed last week and can't be traded for a month.
Knicks get
Crabbe or Turner and Ariza
Houston gets
Anthony and Ezeli
Portland gets
Anderson.
Trade machine - ( New Window )
Link - ( New Window )
He's been 100% accurate in the past.
Wrong link
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really clear why we should believe this guy but the guy linked claims the Knicks will be getting Harkness and a #1 (again I don't believe him even 1% but people are retweeting him) Link - ( New Window )
Wrong link
No that's his website which is why I linked it. He said exactly what I said, that Melo was going to Houston and the Knicks were getting Harkness and a 1st.
Steven Tsakanikas @SteveTsak 19m19 minutes ago
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Replying to @SteveTsak
Update: I'm told it's a 3-team deal involving Portland and that Moe Harkless and a 1st rounder are headed to NY in the trade.
Well who is the fucking boss.
Show some balls for a change Jimmy
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that Dolan is open to a new guy and Mills is trying to prove that a new guy isn't needed. This is indeed a Steve Mills power play. Dolan should channel Leo from "Miller's Crossing" and tell him to take his flunkie (Allan Houston) and dangle.
Well who is the fucking boss.
Show some balls for a change Jimmy
Based on the Phil firing press release, Dolan wants it known that he's not really involved. Which opens a power vacuum for Mills, who knows that Dolan will want him to stay to look over things, rather than just turning everything over to an outsider.
This is why I'll never hold PJ 100% accountable for the mess he left. I highly doubt that he ever had full control with both Mills and Houston here. Given his half-in/half-out status, he probably had a great deal of control over basketball decisions but was undermined by the other two plenty.
what's odd is that Mills met with Griffin - which seems to indicate Mills is part of the hiring process for either his replacement or his own boss or his own employee. It's a fucking mess.
This is also true - not fair of me to call what PJ left a mess, although I don't think dysfunction covers it.
Yeah I think Mills reported to Phil on all basketball stuff. An old fart like Phil could use a guy like Mills to run the scouts, do initial trade calls etc. I dont think Mills or Dolan really stood in Phil's way on basketball stuff, until the very end with Melo/KP. Though it would be interesting to know whether Rose and Noah were 100% Phil's doing, or whether there was some ownership pressure on those deals.
This seems like a different situation with Phil out. Sounds like Mills wants to be (or just will be) the boss of who they bring in.
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In comment 13524101 nygiants16 said:
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In comment 13524099 TommyWiseau said:
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In comment 13524095 nygiants16 said:
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houston and knicks looking for 3rd team to take anderson, says still being told melo will be a rocket...
my guess knicks told melo that they are working with houston and will get a deal done...
rockets told harden and paul that they will get houston...
knicks told lee they will not trade him because they are trading melo to houston (jsports) source
Give me Qi or no deal
i dont think you are getting qi, maybe hartenstein and picks but not qi...
Then keep Melo and let him ride the pine. We don't HAVE to trade him
Qi just signed last week and can't be traded for a month.
No one said Melo has to be traded today, wait the 3 weeks and get Qi in the deal
What has Dolan done, or not done with the Rangers that allows them to be successful, while the Knicks continue to suck?
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and was willing to give Mills and Houston something to do. Kudos to Griffin for understanding it may be career suicide. He's a young-ish guy with plenty of opportunities left.
Yeah I think Mills reported to Phil on all basketball stuff. An old fart like Phil could use a guy like Mills to run the scouts, do initial trade calls etc. I dont think Mills or Dolan really stood in Phil's way on basketball stuff, until the very end with Melo/KP. Though it would be interesting to know whether Rose and Noah were 100% Phil's doing, or whether there was some ownership pressure on those deals.
This seems like a different situation with Phil out. Sounds like Mills wants to be (or just will be) the boss of who they bring in.
You know how this works, though. There's different types of interference/getting in the way.
One is having authority as an approver. I highly doubt Mills ever jumped in and said 'I don't want to do this'.
The other is by having direct or indirect control over staff. Who knows how many times Jackson's directions or information going up to him were altered by Mills being in the chain.
Someone needed to go in and purge MSG of all it's MSG-ness. That's not happening with Mills and Houston there. Yes, this is all Dolan's doing, no question. But you can't say 'hey, Dolan's been hands off, look at the Rangers' when Mills and Houston remain long time constants there. If he's really going to be hands off, it means that organization has to be swept clean and new blood brought in, with the autonomy to make decisions for good or bad.
Griffin saw and recognized that, and wanted no part of MSG once it was clear they had no intentions of changing their SOP.
What has Dolan done, or not done with the Rangers that allows them to be successful, while the Knicks continue to suck?
I dont think Dolan was ever hands on with the Rangers... You dont hear much of anything with Dolan and Hockey... Seems to me that he is leaning that way towards the basketball end of it now, but he built up too many loyal friends in the process and wont cut bait now.
He's 5 years in and seems to have settled into a career that shows he is a solid defender, average finisher and below average statistical performer in other areas i.e. passing, perimeter shooting.
Do you agree with this thumbnail sketch?
Is he regarded as a good locker room guy? Decent bball IQ?
If given the choice, do you think Al Farooq Aminu is the better player to target?
What has Dolan done, or not done with the Rangers that allows them to be successful, while the Knicks continue to suck?
I think the issue is Dolan know's jack shit about hockey and probably knows just a little tiny bit about Basketball so he meddles in what he "knows"
What has Dolan done, or not done with the Rangers that allows them to be successful, while the Knicks continue to suck?
dolan hired sather and he didnt have to do anything..
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How they are a successful franchise while the Knicks arent?
What has Dolan done, or not done with the Rangers that allows them to be successful, while the Knicks continue to suck?
I think the issue is Dolan know's jack shit about hockey and probably knows just a little tiny bit about Basketball so he meddles in what he "knows"
no, they have sather hired and dolan does not have to do anything
Um no. No. And yeah, no.
What a terrible post.
or they suck get a top pick and add more to their young team...
I don't think Dolan really cares about hockey at all - it's the Knicks that are his baby. The Rangers are just like that step child he doesn't really care about - which is obviously great for the Rangers.
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Ever? In any sport?
They do have titles and all time greats and a playoff win in the current decade.. So the current iteration of the browns is still worse
It's harder to make the postseason in the NFL. The Knicks should be nuked from orbit.
I don't think Dolan really cares about hockey at all - it's the Knicks that are his baby. The Rangers are just like that step child he doesn't really care about - which is obviously great for the Rangers.
Exactly. Unfortunately for Knicks fans, Dolan likes basketball.
What has Dolan done, or not done with the Rangers that allows them to be successful, while the Knicks continue to suck?
Sather was in place much earlier in Dolan's tenure. Sather and Phil are both huge, winning names, and I think both got total deference from Dolan. Sather had executive experience and also never picked fights in public like Phil did this year. So he got a lot more rope. After a few years and the institution of a salary cap, Sather realized that you cant spend your way to contention. I think Phil was getting to the same place by the way. Big differences as I see it:
1) Sather had more room to grow into the job due to a more forgiving fan/media environment, plus he had extensive experience and was probably just a better exec than Phil. But in any event, by being there and stabilizing early in Dolan's tenure, Sather wasnt saddled with the hangers like Mills and Zeke and Houston;
2) It's easier to be a successful NHL exec IMO.
3) The Rangers drafted the best goalie of his generation in the 7th round in 2001, and he kept them competitive and selling tickets through the rough spots, i.e. when the Rangers had little talent. Imagine if Phil were here at a time when KP played like a top 10 player (occasional MVP candidate) and there was no risk that he'd leave -- Phil would have Sather's job security.
4) Sather did not see his job as an opportunity to prove that he was right about something (e.g. the Triangle). Indeed, he made several big adjustments. First, he came over believing that MSG's unlimited resources would let him buy a title team, and he adjusted when it didnt work and a cap came in. Second, he canned a successful coach in Torts when he observed that the more successful teams were playing a more open, offensive, speedy style.
There are other issues, but those are the biggies.
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Dolan just stays out of the Rangers' affairs. That's why they've been free of the Jimmy D stench that has been all over the Knicks for what feels like forever now.
I don't think Dolan really cares about hockey at all - it's the Knicks that are his baby. The Rangers are just like that step child he doesn't really care about - which is obviously great for the Rangers.
Exactly. Unfortunately for Knicks fans, Dolan likes basketball.
Dolan likes hockey a lot too. If you believe him, he grew up more a Rangers fan than Knicks fan.
I believe it. I think we "overpaid" by a few million per season. Yeah, the great teams can get guys way below market value, but THJR's deal is pretty justifiable when compared to other young wings. We cant. We have to overpay a bit. I can live with that now. THJR's deal ends when KP's 6th season ends. That's the earliest I see us really having a shot to win a playoff round. I'd say we cant afford any overpays starting around Summer 2019 if we're on track. And if we are, we shouldnt need to overpay.
source?
2)Prior to the salary cap coming on board post-lockout, they were able to pick up the disgruntled Jagr, who appeared to be declining, and his huge contract for pennies on the dollar. That proved to be an enormous boost as Jagr quickly proved that he was still a superstar by setting Rangers' single-season scoring records in 2005-06.
3)While I'm not a big Glen Sather fan, if you're going to have a crony, he's a damned sight better than Steve Mills and Allan Houston.
We've had to watch a bag of shit team WITH Carmelo. So: no.
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And we have to watch a bag of shit team, everyone will then wish we had him back (or someone who can score). Yes Mo qualifies as a bag of shit. Late 1st rounders suck as some of you argue #8 shouldn't play over Sasha or Baker. And yes to the above poster, the Nets will be better faster.
or they suck get a top pick and add more to their young team...
This. The Nets are absolutely making better decisions than the Knicks but they'll need a lot to go right to overtake the Knicks in a few years time. The Knicks will have a high pick again to add to their stable of young guys with upside and Harkless is a 25 year old with the arrow pointing up. If he was a FA he'd be in high demand and he's on a very favorable contract (Leonard would cancel that out but I'm hoping he's not coming here). You also can't praise the Nets while trashing late first round picks. The best thing Marks has done is get picks in the 20's for taking on bad contracts. Russell was a good low risk/high reward move for a team in their position but he's certainly shown no signs of having KP's upside...If teams around the league believed he was likely to become anything more than a decent NBA player the Lakers would've gotten more for him even with Mozgov's deal.
The amazing thing about all this is-- other than dealing Melo, Mills and the rest of his stable of clowns literally don't have to do anything to turn this team around. Get Harkless and a late first for Melo and you have 5 guys 25 and under who can grow together and get a top 6 pick next year they can add to that. If they still suck in a year after doing nothing, you get to draft again in the top 6. This isn't rocket science yet still everyone (myself included) is totally petrified that they'll try and win now by signing Rondo, eventually dealing picks for vets or to shed salary to sign guys at prices they have no business paying. It's incredible how stupid they are. This is nothing but common sense and even the dumbest fans know this should be the plan (excluding the Melo fan club who believe they shouldn't deal him because he's better than what they'll get). I'd love for them to dump Lee somewhere although that might be asking too much.
Eh, he's said things like that but he's always been much more visible around the Knicks than the Rangers.
How excited is anyone here about maxing Capela? I'd happily do it if I was already a title competitor. But if your pieces are KP, Willy, Frank, THJR and future picks, is it wise to max Capela? I think there is not an obvious answer.
The Knicks lucking into someone like Zarren is the only hope we have. His "own guys" will still be with their respective teams and given that he's never been the GM before maybe he's willing to put up with it until he gains Dolan's trust and slowly but surely can bring in his own guys who eventually overtake the clown car. It's too much to hope for though, since it's looking more and more likely that Houston or Warkentien will be named the full time GM...
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No chance. There's no chance that giving up Melo would even net us Chriss alone
if this guy ever shook loose from Boston half the teams in the league would be looking to hire him.
It sucks but it's going to take a big name high profile person to convince Dolan to clean house and have ultimate power. I'm not sure who that person. I'm still holding out hope they find a way to get Ujiri.
It sucks but it's going to take a big name high profile person to convince Dolan to clean house and have ultimate power. I'm not sure who that person. I'm still holding out hope they find a way to get Ujiri.
Speculation
You can argue that the Celtics have a 50ish win floor set up for the next 7 or so years. They have young exciting talent everywhere and their fans can count on seeing good basketball and good players for a long time. There's a ton of value in that even if they never make the finals IMO.
Alone by themselves, Golden State.
Cleveland is still easily the 2nd best team in the league as long as LeBron is there.
The only other relevant teams that can potentially enter the stratosphere of either are Houston, OKC, San Antonio and Boston.
For Houston or Cleveland, Carmelo is an X factor. I think with Carmelo, Houston jumps ahead of Spurs and OKC as clear challenger to GS out west.
I'm not sure why Cleveland is not all over the Knicks about working out a deal for Anthony. Boston has closed some of the gap in my opinion, and I don't see a logical argument that this version of the Cavs can beat GS with KD.
It seems Carmelo can really shake up the NBA hierarchy.
I like Tatum. I just dont think he's got it in him to be your #1 superstar. I feel/felt the same about Melo.
I agree... might as well....nothing to lose at this point..
You can argue that the Celtics have a 50ish win floor set up for the next 7 or so years. They have young exciting talent everywhere and their fans can count on seeing good basketball and good players for a long time. There's a ton of value in that even if they never make the finals IMO.
I get all that. It's hard to hold it against an Ainge or any other GM that GSW managed to draft 3 Team USA Talents with a mid lottery, a mid/late lottery, and a #2, and then signed one of the top 5 players in the game as a UFA. Oh, and everyone is now willing to take massive hometown discounts.
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are going bonkers over how good Tatum looks in summer league. Some are comparing his offensive upside to... Melo.
I like Tatum. I just dont think he's got it in him to be your #1 superstar. I feel/felt the same about Melo.
Deej,
To be clear I wasn't really disputing what you said (though I'd argue I'd rather be the Celtics than any other organization not named Warriors) over the next 3-5 years. I was just commenting on the massive buzz Tatum has right now.
agree with all those views and the rumblings on ah
To be clear, this scenario also completely sucks. It just sucks in a different way than trying to hire a legit GM into this dysfunction junction.
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In comment 13524376 DanMetroMan said:
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are going bonkers over how good Tatum looks in summer league. Some are comparing his offensive upside to... Melo.
I like Tatum. I just dont think he's got it in him to be your #1 superstar. I feel/felt the same about Melo.
Deej,
To be clear I wasn't really disputing what you said (though I'd argue I'd rather be the Celtics than any other organization not named Warriors) over the next 3-5 years. I was just commenting on the massive buzz Tatum has right now.
I think I'd rather be the Wolves or Sixers. I see a clearer title path for both of those teams. I think they have the potentials for having the #1 and #2 player on a title team. I think the Celts have interesting pieces to consistently win 55-60+ games and then lose to the Cavs/Warriors. And that is with resigning Thomas, which is a risk I think they wont take (better chance now with GH on board).
Where did I say I felt he would be a good hire?
I am saying since it appears they can't get a good hire from the outside because Dolan is keeping his core group in power I would at this point rather see Houston given a shot than go backwards to Mills (or Thomas as you suggest).
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gives you any indication Allan Houston would be a good hire? He's extremely close with the owner, his "role" has been GM of the Westchester Knicks which means outside of moves to fill the roster he's simply doing as the Knicks GM tells him to do. He's not signing FA, drafting college players or even working with other GM's on trades. He so highly thought of you never once have heard of another team trying to poach him. There is no scenario he's the best candidate (even in a world where we accept Mills as president). He'd be a puppet.
Where did I say I felt he would be a good hire?
I am saying since it appears they can't get a good hire from the outside because Dolan is keeping his core group in power I would at this point rather see Houston given a shot than go backwards to Mills (or Thomas as you suggest).
We already have had Mills/Houston in "positions of power". Houston being the GM would be the worst case scenario. At least if they hired someone internal but not previously "high up" this mystery man could conceivably come in and surprise with his previously unknown thoughts and beliefs. Maybe Walker Russell is that guy, maybe it's Kevin Wilson, maybe that guy doesn't exist but I sure as hell wouldn't bet on the status quo duo "surprising" us. If the Knicks fired Allan Houston tomorrow I'm sure he'd get some sort of role (he's an ex all-star, decent enough human being etc) but nobody is frothing at the mouth to hire Allan Houston as a decision maker.
We already have had Mills/Houston in "positions of power". Houston being the GM would be the worst case scenario. At least if they hired someone internal but not previously "high up" this mystery man could conceivably come in and surprise with his previously unknown thoughts and beliefs. Maybe Walker Russell is that guy, maybe it's Kevin Wilson, maybe that guy doesn't exist but I sure as hell wouldn't bet on the status quo duo "surprising" us. If the Knicks fired Allan Houston tomorrow I'm sure he'd get some sort of role (he's an ex all-star, decent enough human being etc) but nobody is frothing at the mouth to hire Allan Houston as a decision maker.
They've been in positions of power, but took Cris Carter's advice and made sure they had fall guys in place to take the blame when things went south. If/when they are named President and GM, at least they'll be no one left to blame when things go further south and maybe (doubtful) Dolan will finally get rid of those two.
Don't put words in my mouth, I prefer to have no part of that. But I did say:
steve in ky : 1:17 pm : link : reply
Since it looks like Mills as President and they likley wont get anyone great coming in from the outside I would almost rather they promote Houston to the GM and see what he could do making the personnel decisions rather than Mills.
Surely you can see the distinction between that and wanting Mills/Houston
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You guys really want to sit through 2+ years of Mills/Houston praying they are either shockingly good or prove they are so bad that we are trying again?
Don't put words in my mouth, I prefer to have no part of that. But I did say:
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At this point
steve in ky : 1:17 pm : link : reply
Since it looks like Mills as President and they likley wont get anyone great coming in from the outside I would almost rather they promote Houston to the GM and see what he could do making the personnel decisions rather than Mills.
Surely you can see the distinction between that and wanting Mills/Houston
I'm not looking to argue semantics but I fail to see what going with Houston does. You said "almost rather" and I'm suggesting this shouldn't be something anyone would "rather". He's unqualified. That's the long and short of it. Almost ANY other person they bring in will have a more impressive resume and maybe just maybe some interesting/new ideas.
Oh, don't get me wrong. I completely agree with your take on things and that's likely how things play out with Houston/Mills leading the way. I'm just looking for a sliver of a silver lining for when those 2 "officially" take over.
Besides, I live in MN. It'll be easy for me to start rooting for the home town team! Hell, if Towns/Wiggins reach their "ceilings" they might even be the ones to knock the Warriors off their perch!
It's now all doom and gloom though. Warkentien is a former exec of the year ( not sure of his current role though), Mark Hughes and Kevin Wilson are well respected. But you have let your GM/ President pick his own staff.
The strange thing is he has a pretty good GM resume. No idea why they don't just give him back the reins.
Scout with the Sonics
Scouting director in Portland
Assistant GM with Portland
Interim GM for the Cavs
VP with Houston
Consultant with the Rockets
He's going for his doctorate so maybe he's just not that interested in such a major role at his age. His bio (presumably written by him) is kind of funny because it mentions highlights at different spots
"
LocationCleveland/Akron, Ohio Area
Served as Cleveland Cavaliers interim general manager in the 2 1/2 months before the 2005 NBA Draft. Traded Jiri Welsch for a second-round pick and did not pick up contract options of Lucious Harris and Robert Traylor, clearing $6.5 million of salary-cap room to be spent in summer of 2005."
the jokes write themselves.
I forgot the Knicks also have John Gabriel. What a weird front office makeup. I'm still surprised Phil only brought on 1 giuy to the front office. Remember all those articles about "Phil cleaning house. No more catering to CAA" when he was hired?
Unrelated but Bucks interested in Ian Clark. Seeking 8 mill a year. Would have much preferred Clark for 3 years at 27mill then the THJ signing...
I forgot the Knicks also have John Gabriel. What a weird front office makeup. I'm still surprised Phil only brought on 1 giuy to the front office. Remember all those articles about "Phil cleaning house. No more catering to CAA" when he was hired?
Unrelated but Bucks interested in Ian Clark. Seeking 8 mill a year. Would have much preferred Clark for 3 years at 27mill then the THJ signing...
I think I recall that he WANTED to clean house, and that story quietly died.
Hand the Keys to KP and tank.
maybe sign Jennings to come back play some Pg
That's true, aside from the Knicks lacking a Cashman-level personnel talent.
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is the Yankees, where for a long time there were more or less duplicate front offices - one in Tampa, one in NY, plus George's infamous "baseball people" like Clyde King who were "special advisors" with no official authority but who held influence with GS. It was that way for a long time until Cashman finally forced the Steinbrenners to give him the ultimate authority over the Tampa faction.
That's true, aside from the Knicks lacking a Cashman-level personnel talent.
Well, our European scouting has delivered KP when Mudiay, Hez, and others looked like candidates, told us to trade for Willy, and landed us Kuz for free (part of scouting is recruiting).
Link - ( New Window )
it is the first time i have seen him tweet in such a definite term...
1. Mills refused to give Griffin (or anyone else) full decision making power
2. Dolan will not allow an outside GM to bring in his own guys and/remove "his" guys.
1. Mills refused to give Griffin (or anyone else) full decision making power
2. Dolan will not allow an outside GM to bring in his own guys and/remove "his" guys.
Because everything has worked so well.
Lol Knicks.
1. Mills refused to give Griffin (or anyone else) full decision making power
2. Dolan will not allow an outside GM to bring in his own guys and/remove "his" guys.
Do most GMs have full decision making power vis a vis ownership? Does this mean Griffin wouldnt have full decision power vis a vis Mills, or Dolan?
If the answer is that Mills refused to give Griffin full power with respect to Griffin vs. Mills, then we already have our answer -- Mills is ultimately in charge, and is looking for what amounts to a deputy.
1. Mills refused to give Griffin (or anyone else) full decision making power
2. Dolan will not allow an outside GM to bring in his own guys and/remove "his" guys.
was this in an article? radio spot?
2> Donovan Mitchell (two way- shut down Tatum).
3> Jonathan Isaac (two way- incredible athelete with elite d)
4> Tatum- Going to be very good, but needs to get stronger
5> Josh Hart ready to play.
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says
1. Mills refused to give Griffin (or anyone else) full decision making power
2. Dolan will not allow an outside GM to bring in his own guys and/remove "his" guys.
was this in an article? radio spot?
Begley
Two things have become clear in the wake of ex-Cleveland Cavaliers GM David Griffin pulling his name out of the running for the New York Knicks president/GM job:
1. Current GM Steve Mills will want some authority over basketball decisions going forward, no matter whom the Knicks bring in.
2. Knicks owner James Dolan wont allow any executive from the outside to come in and fire/reassign the Knicks current executives to bring in his or her own people.
Those, according to ESPNs Adrian Wojnarowski, were two major sticking points in conversations between Griffin and the Knicks. (Griffin met on Friday night with Mills). And those were two major reasons Griffin pulled his name out of the running.
It makes sense that Griffin would want autonomy and final say over front-office staffing: That's typical for any executive who comes in from the outside.
Now, it seems clear that Mills will have at least some -- and maybe full -- autonomy when it comes to making basketball decisions. It's hard to see a big-name executive agreeing to join the Knicks without autonomy and freedom to bring in his or her own staff -- something the Knicks to date have been unwilling to grant.
Link - ( New Window )
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says
1. Mills refused to give Griffin (or anyone else) full decision making power
2. Dolan will not allow an outside GM to bring in his own guys and/remove "his" guys.
Do most GMs have full decision making power vis a vis ownership? Does this mean Griffin wouldnt have full decision power vis a vis Mills, or Dolan?
If the answer is that Mills refused to give Griffin full power with respect to Griffin vs. Mills, then we already have our answer -- Mills is ultimately in charge, and is looking for what amounts to a deputy.
Ian Begley answers your question-
"It makes sense that Griffin would want autonomy and final say over front-office staffing: That's typical for any executive who comes in from the outside."
Tim [Hardaway Jr.] on Knicks: "They said straight up, You have to obviously improve a lot more on defense and improve a lot more on the offensive end."
3:06 PM - 10 Jul 2017
I am convinced that Dolan is angry at all the fans who hate him and want him gone and out of spite he is doing all of this to get back at us. As long as he is still making money he will keep the status quo.
I can see a scenario where Phil is scapegoated and everyone else acts as if this never happened and they pretend they are contenders.
I can see a scenario where Phil is scapegoated and everyone else acts as if this never happened and they pretend they are contenders.
I think it's very likely.
I can see a scenario where Phil is scapegoated and everyone else acts as if this never happened and they pretend they are contenders.
No. Just because it doesn't happen ASAP or within 20 minutes of whatever the latest tweet saying it would happen doesn't mean they want Melo back.
Eh, I often think Knicks fans deserve Dolan. They are, by far, the dumbest and most impatient fan base of any team that I follow. I love their passion, and obviously everyone isnt dumb. But there are enough dumb voices out there pulling the franchise into a dumb direction that it's frankly a testament to Mills that he blew their money on a youngish THJR instead of maxing out a PG, re-upping Rose, or dumping a wad on Redick or ZBo or some other famous name. Well, almost a testament. It's still too rich a deal with an inexplicable opt out and kicker.
NY gets: Eric Gordon, Mo Harkless, Tim Quarterman, and Chinanu Onuaku (or whichever random $1mil player Houston wants)
Houston gets: Carmelo Anthony, Evan Turner
Portland gets: Ryan Anderson
Why each team benefits:
NY gets rid of Carmelo while bringing in young pieces in Harkless and Quarterman, as well as Eric Gordon who can serve as vet presence off the bench or more likely can be flipped into another younger asset at some point in the future.
Houston is able to bring in Melo to give them a "big 3" and is a more versatile weapon offensively than Ryan Anderson. They also are able to bring in Turner to fill in the sixth man role being vacated by Gordon. Perhaps Pringles can get the best out of him and he will be closer to the player he was in Boston than the disaster of a fit that he was in Portland.
Portland is able to rid themselves of Turner's contract and bring in Anderson who would fit much better alongside Nurkic, Lillard, McCollum, etc.
NY gets: Eric Gordon, Mo Harkless, Tim Quarterman, and Chinanu Onuaku (or whichever random $1mil player Houston wants)
Houston gets: Carmelo Anthony, Evan Turner
Portland gets: Ryan Anderson
Mike. Houston cannot fit Melo and Turners contracts in their cap
You are talking about 44 million
Gordon and Anderson only add up 35 million
Why each team benefits:
NY gets rid of Carmelo while bringing in young pieces in Harkless and Quarterman, as well as Eric Gordon who can serve as vet presence off the bench or more likely can be flipped into another younger asset at some point in the future.
Houston is able to bring in Melo to give them a "big 3" and is a more versatile weapon offensively than Ryan Anderson. They also are able to bring in Turner to fill in the sixth man role being vacated by Gordon. Perhaps Pringles can get the best out of him and he will be closer to the player he was in Boston than the disaster of a fit that he was in Portland.
Portland is able to rid themselves of Turner's contract and bring in Anderson who would fit much better alongside Nurkic, Lillard, McCollum, etc.
You'd have to assume its close to done if he's posting that. Especially cause it hasn't been taking down yet and couldn't that be tampering
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to a Carmelo Anthony return?
I can see a scenario where Phil is scapegoated and everyone else acts as if this never happened and they pretend they are contenders.
No. Just because it doesn't happen ASAP or within 20 minutes of whatever the latest tweet saying it would happen doesn't mean they want Melo back.
We don't know definitively that they want to unload him in the first place. What got phil fired was suggesting they get rid of Melo at any cost.
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a Melo to Houston deal is Portland, who else could be interested in taking on Anderson's contract? Who do we think says no to the following trade:
NY gets: Eric Gordon, Mo Harkless, Tim Quarterman, and Chinanu Onuaku (or whichever random $1mil player Houston wants)
Houston gets: Carmelo Anthony, Evan Turner
Portland gets: Ryan Anderson
Mike. Houston cannot fit Melo and Turners contracts in their cap
You are talking about 44 million
Gordon and Anderson only add up 35 million
Why each team benefits:
NY gets rid of Carmelo while bringing in young pieces in Harkless and Quarterman, as well as Eric Gordon who can serve as vet presence off the bench or more likely can be flipped into another younger asset at some point in the future.
Houston is able to bring in Melo to give them a "big 3" and is a more versatile weapon offensively than Ryan Anderson. They also are able to bring in Turner to fill in the sixth man role being vacated by Gordon. Perhaps Pringles can get the best out of him and he will be closer to the player he was in Boston than the disaster of a fit that he was in Portland.
Portland is able to rid themselves of Turner's contract and bring in Anderson who would fit much better alongside Nurkic, Lillard, McCollum, etc.
It worked on ESPN Trade Machine, assumed the numbers on there are accurate.
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It was there.
he deleted it, there is a guy on twitter who apparently is followed by begely, shelbourne and a couple others saying that harden is telling people that the deal is done...fwiw
If this does go through, I'd like to know what they have been hammering out since this was first reported as a "done deal."
If this does go through, I'd like to know what they have been hammering out since this was first reported as a "done deal."
never reported as "done" it was reported thay players from houston and knicks were told melo will be dealt to houston...
my guess knicks and houston locked on and worked to get a deal done together and that is how it got leaked
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like everyone else.
If this does go through, I'd like to know what they have been hammering out since this was first reported as a "done deal."
never reported as "done" it was reported thay players from houston and knicks were told melo will be dealt to houston...
my guess knicks and houston locked on and worked to get a deal done together and that is how it got leaked
Was referring to that jsports guy. If he is in fact not full of shit, then again I'm interested in the particulars that have been batted back and forth since he first put that out there. Can't imagine that he would say it's happening if they were looking for a third team this whole time.
I can see a scenario where Phil is scapegoated and everyone else acts as if this never happened and they pretend they are contenders.
I've been saying all along he just might not be traded. I'll believe he's gone when I see it and I refuse to believe we get anything positive in return even if he's dealt.
Good post. Bringing in players that might actually fit with the coach's preferred style of play. What a novel concept, huh?
He also said he wanted to build a culture of accountability, and then didn't even show his face at a press conference.
vet minimum sure...
i almost wonder if rondo is waiting to see if the knicks can open up a little more cap space before signing somewhwer...
kind of like keenan robinson did with giants and jpp
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Then he'd be a perfect fit.
I hope the Knicks don't win a game next year.
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during the NBA finals.
Then he'd be a perfect fit.
I hope the Knicks don't win a game next year.
Or ever again, as long as Dolan owns them.
He also was open about "hating" New York when he got out of town and landed in Dallas. He's known as a bit of a tool.
Don't forget Steve Francis
Stop!
"Let my preface this by saying that I don't think there's any need for him to become some 300lb giant, nor do I expect him to already have achieved some elite level of strength.
That said, his workout recordings are a disaster. They disguise it in places by using bumper plates (far larger and less dense than iron) to make it look like he's moving more weight, but the guy is lifting amounts the average completely untrained rookie can achieve within a month of casual training. In his most recent video, we see his bench is only at 50kg (110lbs). That's pre-draft Kevin Durant strength from a guy going into his third season. He also shows off one of the ugliest power cleans I've ever seen, catching 100% of the weight on his elbows at an angle that will cause injury long-term if not corrected. Judging from his rack pull and other recent clips, his squat and deadlift are comparably weak. It isn't even a matter of pacing him so he gets used to playing at different weights or something; he can get way stronger and more explosive without putting on a pound. That means he either wasn't doing any of these exercises until very recently or his training is being so mishandled to where he simply isn't gaining any strength.
I can't drive home enough that these are levels normal, untrained individuals don't uncommonly achieve just via day to day activity. I can't imagine a team's training staff handling a player's strength training this poorly when it's been one of his primary issues thus far. Which leads into my main concern with Porzingis in general; his brother. KP's brother is the one spearheading the training that doesn't appear to be working, handling communication with the front office that only led to increased tensions, and constantly talking about leveraging KP's position. Where a guy like Lavar is just hot air to ignore, this case seems like something that could genuinely hurt our situation going forward. I don't like seeing KP pass on the best trainers money can buy for an alright former basketball player who may very well have been raised on broscience."
Linked below is the video
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Stop!
Ryan Anderson a 2nd rounder doesn't do it for you? I'm at the point where I will be selling myself on Cameron Oliver as a "first round talent!" lol
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and now Deron. MSG, where old PGs come to die.
Don't forget Steve Francis
he actually had a few games with the Rockets after his Knicks tenure. But yeah...
I guess I'm talking specifically about LeBron. If I was in LeBron's shoes I'd have Kevin Love on the trading block looking for a way to bring Melo in immediately. His only shot at Golden State (as long as he stays in Cleveland) is bringing in the olympic version of Carmelo Anthony to run with he and Kyrie.
I guess I'm talking specifically about LeBron. If I was in LeBron's shoes I'd have Kevin Love on the trading block looking for a way to bring Melo in immediately. His only shot at Golden State (as long as he stays in Cleveland) is bringing in the olympic version of Carmelo Anthony to run with he and Kyrie.
I think a lot of it is the NTC and the fact that teams he is eyeballing are tapped out of future assets. Save Cleveland, which so far seems to want to keep it's future #1s out of fear LeBron is leaving in a year.
Currently, Mills is focusing on potentially trading Carmelo Anthony, finding a veteran point guard, and figuring out how to smooth things over with Kristaps Porzingis, according to Begley.
On the point guard front, the club has remained in touch with Rajon Rondo, and theres mutual interest there, says Begley. However, the Knicks are out of cap room for the moment, so its not clear if Rondo would be willing to settle for the $4.3MM room exception, or if the team is looking to create cap space in order to make a more substantial offer.
A trade for a veteran point guard is a possibility too, according to Begley, who says New York had strong interest in Patrick Beverley before Houston traded him to the Clippers. Begley also mentions Brandon Knight or Eric Bledsoe as possible trade candidates, though theres no indication the Knicks have talked to Phoenix about those vets.
No Carmelo deal is imminent, but the Knicks and Anthony feel good about getting something done at some point, sources tell Begley. For his part, newly-signed Knick Tim Hardaway said hed definitely like to see Anthony return to the team next season (link via Begley).
Houston
SA
OKC
Cleveland
Boston
It's like an arms race to stay in that top % of the league and also have a shot at GS (who by the way improved its team again this offseason).
OKC made their move.
Houston made their move, looking for more.
Boston is taking more of a measured approach through the drafts, but they are still right there.
San Antonio and Cleveland I'd argue are the ones who need to keep up at this point. Of course you trust them with LeBron, Pop and Kawhi. But as age creeps in, don't you need reinforcements?
even without the NTC it wouldn't be easy. Only a contending team is going to want Melo - and it's hard for a contending team to send back matching salaries without breaking up their existing core players.
It's so much easier to pull off these kinds of deals in MLB. You can trade a star player making $100 million for 3 guys who aren't even in the majors.
As for Knight, i think going to PHX, the land of a thousand guards really hurt him. That said his contract is horrible so id have no interest in him for the knicks.
What is that quote from? Would love Knight or Bledsoe. Both are pretty good buy low opportunities due to the Suns glut at PG.
Earl Watson repeatedly mentioned a lack of effort on defense from Knight last season. He's ALWAYS hurt (169 games played since 2013-2014 out of 246 team games) and by WS/48 he's been straight garbage all but 1 season. That's an ugly contract for the player he's been 3 years 44 million. I'd pass. Wouldn't want him for 3 years and even Lee for Knight doesn't really do much for me.
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Knight sure seems to have fallen off quite a bit from earlier in his career. Anyone know what's gone on with him?
What is that quote from? Would love Knight or Bledsoe. Both are pretty good buy low opportunities due to the Suns glut at PG.
You'd pay Brandon Knight 43 million? I wouldn't.
Last 2 season .032 WS/48, 58 games missed. The corpse of Deron Williams .077 WS/48 over the same period 35 games missed. Deron Williams will be lucky to get 1 year 4.3 million.
The Suns are an interesting 3rd team in a Melo deal though.
They have a glut at PG and 24M in cap room, so the Knicks could trade Melo for Knight and save 13M this year and next in salary. Would obviously hope they got more in return, but that is intriguing.
Already on his 3rd team and being shopped again, my guess is he's not the kind of player coaches like to deal with... here is Watson on Knight and why he wasn't playing over Ullis.... exactly the kind of players we should be avoiding... especially at 43 million owed
Ball pressure is most important at that position, Watson said. We feel like Tyler Ulis gives us that every time we put him on the court. Its not scoring points, its not you have 20 points and be efficient or offensively its can you create a presence defensively. When you talk about building a culture, you go through your first season and you identify the players who are going to commit to the mindset or the physical sacrifice of defensively building that culture.
"You have to break down the mental barrier of where they see value in themselves, Watson said of his team overall. For us, we have to go from a me-team to a we-team. So the me-team is, Im good enough to change the game offensively. Im good enough to score enough points to stay in the game, have an impact. The we-team is, I have to give everything I have defensively. When we get to offense, I have to move the ball and share the ball to regain some wind and some stamina. We have to change that mindset and that action."
Deron .077 WS/48
Rose .039
Rondo .076
Jennings .058
Lawson .063 (very quietly played pretty well for the Kings)
Knicks get: Knight, rights to Llull/Hartenstein, Bender, Ariza
Rockets give: Anderson, Ariza
Rockets get: Melo
Suns give: Knight, Bender
Suns get: Anderson
Also, how was Knight under Hornacek in Phoenix?
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the Suns seemingly shut him down last year even though he was healthy. weird.
Already on his 3rd team and being shopped again, my guess is he's not the kind of player coaches like to deal with... here is Watson on Knight and why he wasn't playing over Ullis.... exactly the kind of players we should be avoiding... especially at 43 million owed
Ball pressure is most important at that position, Watson said. We feel like Tyler Ulis gives us that every time we put him on the court. Its not scoring points, its not you have 20 points and be efficient or offensively its can you create a presence defensively. When you talk about building a culture, you go through your first season and you identify the players who are going to commit to the mindset or the physical sacrifice of defensively building that culture.
"You have to break down the mental barrier of where they see value in themselves, Watson said of his team overall. For us, we have to go from a me-team to a we-team. So the me-team is, Im good enough to change the game offensively. Im good enough to score enough points to stay in the game, have an impact. The we-team is, I have to give everything I have defensively. When we get to offense, I have to move the ball and share the ball to regain some wind and some stamina. We have to change that mindset and that action."
Love this quote. Exactly why I wanted frank over smith
Also, how was Knight under Hornacek in Phoenix?
He played for Hornacek 1 season (2015-2016) and 11 games the previous year and sucked. .043 WS/48. He's only had one stretch of good play in his career. 52 games with the Bucks during the 2014-2015 season.
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Knicks have lacked accountability for years. It's easier to enforce accountability at the margins of the rotation -- e.g. you can sit a KOQ and distribute his minutes to others. But there was no mechanism to do it with Melo and Rose.
Im not holding my breath on it starting now. We've still got a very thin roster. I think that's why it's so important that you keep seeing "hard worker" thrown around about some of our players. KP, Frank, and per the ATL reports THJR. Noah is a hard working leader. Key rotation pieces need to be motivated to do the work because you cant really sit them.
That kid made some slick passes in that game.
This is player development and the positive of having an elite coach. I remember getting in arguments with posters who doubted Atlantas player development. Case in point right here.
@KeithSmithNBA
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Hoiberg: Rajon Rondo was one of my favorites ever to coach. He was great for young players. Asked a million questions to prepare team.
Yeah, my post was garbled. A good coach would bench Melo or Rose. Even just for stretches, for 4th quarters etc. Hornacek had an impossible task IMO, but he didnt do anything to impress me either.
Adam Silver? Forget it.But maybe Cablevision will be forced to remove him.
You can't have this guy walking around like he doesn't care,ala Peter Gibbons,daring people not to show up to games.
Adam Silver? Forget it.But maybe Cablevision will be forced to remove him.
You can't have this guy walking around like he doesn't care,ala Peter Gibbons,daring people not to show up to games.
Pretty sure Dolan sold Cablevision to some euros 2 years ago..
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I think you are letting Hornacek off too easily. Carmelo Anthony and his NTC, contract and ability is one thing. What stopped Hornacek from benching Rose when the defensive effort was lacking? I have a hard time believing Phil Jackson would have had an issue with players being benched for lack of defensive effort. It's far from my biggest concern (I have many) but Hornacek seems kind of weak to me. Reportedly "berating" KP at times, but scared of the vets. Grow some balls Jeff.
Yeah, my post was garbled. A good coach would bench Melo or Rose. Even just for stretches, for 4th quarters etc. Hornacek had an impossible task IMO, but he didnt do anything to impress me either.
The flipside is that if you come down on the vets, particularly the stars, you risk losing the locker room completely. Im sure it's a fine line and isnt just as simple of a matter as having the will power to sit a star and sacrifice short term production for long term better play.
I think what we ultimately want too is Frank to become Rondo with a jumper.
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and reassign Dolan.
Adam Silver? Forget it.But maybe Cablevision will be forced to remove him.
You can't have this guy walking around like he doesn't care,ala Peter Gibbons,daring people not to show up to games.
Pretty sure Dolan sold Cablevision to some euros 2 years ago..
A French company bought Cablevision. MSG was spun off of it years ago -- Cablevision has no control of the Knicks.
I dont hope that Charles Dolan dies. But my hope is that when he goes that the other Dolan kids are not going to want to pony up the cash it would take to hold on to MSG and pay the inheritance tax out of pocket. But Jimmy just spun off MSG Network, reducing the value of MSG, and he could probably do more spinoffs/asset sales to reduce the value of MSG to minimize the tax payment.
The Knicks were so bad that running Baker or Sasha D leaguers out there that at least put in effort while benching "stars" would have done more good than bad.
Right, but he doesnt own MSG. He owns 9.8% of the voting power at MSG. Charles and his wife Helen collectively own 41.8% of the voting power, and the family as a group owns 70.7% of the voting power. Other Dolans personal holdings that add into that voting power (see link to proxy).
When Charles (age 90) and Helen pass away, there will be an estate tax bill to pay. Even if Jimmy wants to keep MSG, he could get overruled by the other siblings, especially if they think there is untapped value in MSG once you get it out of JD's hands. MSG, or its assets split up, are almost certainly worth more than the $4.5 bn market cap of MSG Co., which has very little real debt.
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and the teams is what allows Dolan to hobnob with rich and famous musicians he worships. If he ever sells, he's just another billionaire who's only hanging out with them if he hires them to play his birthday party.
Right, but he doesnt own MSG. He owns 9.8% of the voting power at MSG. Charles and his wife Helen collectively own 41.8% of the voting power, and the family as a group owns 70.7% of the voting power. Other Dolans personal holdings that add into that voting power (see link to proxy).
When Charles (age 90) and Helen pass away, there will be an estate tax bill to pay. Even if Jimmy wants to keep MSG, he could get overruled by the other siblings, especially if they think there is untapped value in MSG once you get it out of JD's hands. MSG, or its assets split up, are almost certainly worth more than the $4.5 bn market cap of MSG Co., which has very little real debt. Link - ( New Window )
thanks for the info. So what do you think might happen if and when they're forced to deal with the estate tax?
Budenholzer can do what he did because he was coach and GM. There's a long line of recent Knicks coaches to which you can say didn't do anything discipline-wise. There's enough there that I feel like we can start asking if coaches inside MSG actually have the authority to do such things.
Woodson talked a good game, but he never actually did anything with JR Smith.
Budenholzer can do what he did because he was coach and GM. There's a long line of recent Knicks coaches to which you can say didn't do anything discipline-wise. There's enough there that I feel like we can start asking if coaches inside MSG actually have the authority to do such things.
Woodson talked a good game, but he never actually did anything with JR Smith.
Do you honestly believe Phil Jackson would have stopped Hornacek from playing guys based on defensive effort/hustle and benching those who did not? IF anything that seems like something Phil would have supported. Hornacek strikes me as meek, I'd love to be proven wrong.
My guess is that there is more than enough flexibility for the family to keep MSG if they want to. It's just a question of whether the other siblings want to keep MSG, or keep something else/take their cash and disentangle their finances. IMO, a good investment banker could sell off MSG's assets (out of JD's hands too) and fetch a much better return. Split it into the (1) Knicks/Lib, (2) Rangers, (3) MSG, and (4) entertainment. There will be a billionaire's bidding war over the Knicks and Rangers.
Do they want that? They have 70% of the vote but only ~20% of the ownership. Or maybe they sell off MSG and the entertainment products but let Jimmy keep the Rangers and Knicks (though those are the assets that I think would bring back huge $$).
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than the Knicks, which is one of the reasons I don't like sinking big money into a player that has a lot of growing to do.
Budenholzer can do what he did because he was coach and GM. There's a long line of recent Knicks coaches to which you can say didn't do anything discipline-wise. There's enough there that I feel like we can start asking if coaches inside MSG actually have the authority to do such things.
Woodson talked a good game, but he never actually did anything with JR Smith.
Do you honestly believe Phil Jackson would have stopped Hornacek from playing guys based on defensive effort/hustle and benching those who did not? IF anything that seems like something Phil would have supported. Hornacek strikes me as meek, I'd love to be proven wrong.
I don't know what to believe about Phil Jackson's time here. There's enough smoke to argue that he didn't care all that much about what was going on with the team in a lot of ways. You'd think Phil would have a problem with Rose just deciding to blow off work, too. That would fall under his immediate responsibility and we don't know that he did anything there to address it.
why? Mills was running things by himself in the post Grunwald / pre-Phil era.
And it was just as ludicrous then.
THJ signs one of the richest free agent contracts in Knicks history and every executive & coach was a no-show at the press conference.
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why? Mills was running things by himself in the post Grunwald / pre-Phil era.
And it was just as ludicrous then.
eh, ludicrous in a vacuum or for a normal team. But I don't know if it cracks the top 5 or top 10 of ridiculous front-office related fiascos at MSG since Dolan has owned the team.
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Frank Isola @FisolaNYDN
THJ signs one of the richest free agent contracts in Knicks history and every executive & coach was a no-show at the press conference.
Mills is busy interviewing experienced NBA front office executives and telling them they'll have to answer to an empty suit.
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why? Mills was running things by himself in the post Grunwald / pre-Phil era.
And it was just as ludicrous then.
He also really didnt do any harm. Indeed, he didnt do anything at all, which for a Knicks executive is pretty good.
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we do know that sometimes Dolan will react to negative press coverage like he did with Phil or during the JVG/Checketts/Grunfeld feud. But then other times he will dig in and turn a deaf ear (Isiah).
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In comment 13525408 Enzo said:
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why? Mills was running things by himself in the post Grunwald / pre-Phil era.
And it was just as ludicrous then.
He also really didnt do any harm. Indeed, he didnt do anything at all, which for a Knicks executive is pretty good. Link - ( New Window )
He was also the guy in charge when they negotiated the supposed Kyle Lowry trade centered around Iman Shumpert and a future 1st before Dolan vetoed it at the last minute because he was afraid of Masai.
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Frank Isola @FisolaNYDN
THJ signs one of the richest free agent contracts in Knicks history and every executive & coach was a no-show at the press conference.
I'm not a Frank Isola guy at all, but he's dead-on here. More of the same from the Knicks. But Steve Mills says he wants to promote a culture of accountability though.
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Either way it is for the best that the trade didn't go through. We most likely wouldn't have ended up with Porzingis and the draft pick that Toronto was seeking is our 2018 first which has the looks of one that will end up high in the lottery.
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accounts of the Lowry trade make it sound as if they were basically sans GM and that Mike Woodson was heavily involved with the negotiations vs. Mills (for whatever that's worth).
Either way it is for the best that the trade didn't go through. We most likely wouldn't have ended up with Porzingis and the draft pick that Toronto was seeking is our 2018 first which has the looks of one that will end up high in the lottery.
Oh I wasn't disagreeing with you. I just went back and read the old reports and it said stuff like Woodson and Dolan did not want to include THjr (funny enough) but the reports made no mention of Mills involvement but did mention Woodson's input which leads me to believe Mills was less involved than your standard GM at the time.
Boiled down, it's "at least we have Porzingis".
Sometime I think about what it would be like if the Sixers took KP, and Phil got Okafor (who he wanted). Melo and Okafor as the front line. Probably no Lopez/Noah but I could still see them getting Rose last offseason, because really Chicago wanted him out and Phil wanted him here. Melo, Rose, Okafor. The Mecca of Basketball.
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particularly new but decent read Link - ( New Window )
Boiled down, it's "at least we have Porzingis".
Sometime I think about what it would be like if the Sixers took KP, and Phil got Okafor (who he wanted). Melo and Okafor as the front line. Probably no Lopez/Noah but I could still see them getting Rose last offseason, because really Chicago wanted him out and Phil wanted him here. Melo, Rose, Okafor. The Mecca of Basketball.
You're a sadist.
I know I didn't want Okafor. You had to be a fool to think his defensive and rebounding liabilities weren't going to really destroy him as an NBA player. I said at the time his ceiling was Al Jefferson, and i doubt he ever even reaches that
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The Rockets have guaranteed Cameron Oliver $300k on a 2-yr min contract @BBallInsiders
I know I didn't want Okafor. You had to be a fool to think his defensive and rebounding liabilities weren't going to really destroy him as an NBA player. I said at the time his ceiling was Al Jefferson, and i doubt he ever even reaches that
He told Rosen he'd take Okafor over Towns...
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really want Okafor? You may be right, I just can't remember what the talk was before that draft.
I know I didn't want Okafor. You had to be a fool to think his defensive and rebounding liabilities weren't going to really destroy him as an NBA player. I said at the time his ceiling was Al Jefferson, and i doubt he ever even reaches that
He told Rosen he'd take Okafor over Towns...
That would be just brutal.
Even if you looked at it from an ASAP point of view, Towns was still the choice. Offensively he was not far behind Okafor and he was already light years better as a rebounder and defender.
Jesus they should have fired him on the spot over that comment, no idea how I missed it.
Watching Okafor try to play pick and roll defense at Duke was painful.
Looking back at the Rosen piece, he mentions Towns, Okafor, Russell, Booker, and WCS. This was published after the draft, but based on mid-March discussions. So either KP wasnt on his radar yet as a foreign player, or Phil was playing it cool with Rosen.
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Shaq had size 22 feet.
And what about Phil's complaints about Towns's core strength, which he later echoed re KP. He seems pre-occupied with stuff no one else is talking about.
In a lot of ways Phil's mindset just seems fixed in basketball as it existed in a prior era. I think his Bulls and Lakers teams would be really good today running the same schemes. But he basically cant imagine anyone succeeding WITHOUT a power center based game. It's bizarre (especially since he then signed Lopez and Noah to big contracts).
@wojespn
Restricted free agent Ron Baker's deal to stay with the Knicks: Two-years, $8.9M, including a player option, league sources tell ESPN.
4.5 PER for Ron Baker? I mean that seems pretty excessive if you ask me
That's minimum wage in today's NBA lol. I don't think it's that much to hold on to him a bit longer to see how he develops.
Or can be used in as a trade chip later on down the line.
This franchise is a total shitbox.
And Melo got a NTC, which I think only Kobe had at the time. The Rangers handed out NTCs like candy too, and it burned them.
This is really unimaginable. Only redeeming feature of this deal is that it is over in 2 season.
When or more exactly why did you ever think the return was going to be good? Did Melo turn into a different player or find a time machine recently? For all of the bitching and moaning about Phil "hurting his value", everyone can see the tapes and knows what Melo is at this point in his career. And whatever that is isn't someone people hand over valuable assets for. Hopefully they do the best they can and that doesn't involve something like Ryan Anderson contracts or draft picks that are heavily protected.
I seriously doubt RC Buford, Red Auerbach, and Jerry West in a room could extract much for Melo considering his contract, age, game, and NTC. (They just would've been smart enough not to give him the NTC and/or contract.) At this point, "it is what it is".
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With the Knicks signing Ron Baker to the full room exception, they have less than $1.5 million in cap space left & still need a veteran PG
I guess they're expecting to clear cap space with Melo trade and possibly Lee trade. Otherwise, having Baker as the PG would guarantee a high pick next season, so it's not all bad.
Maybe the height of the lunacy. Crux is far too kind to the gross amount of salary.
Steve Mills is not good at negotiating contracts. He's been a Knicks executive for a while now, it's not like he's new to this. This is a big problem.
Cut to December "Page Six: Post exclusive Knicks star seen boozing before game"
gimme Deron's corpse over Baker. Bottom line: HE IS NOT AN NBA PLAYER.
It's like a sitcom where Mills thinks that if he just starts doing the job, he'll get to keep it.
The ploy will likely work.
I agree that teams would be offering less to take him off of the Knicks hands... just look at how stingy the KP offers were. But we live in a world where Paul George and DeMarcus Cousins (different circumstances, I know) get "disappointing returns".
I think if there were several teams looking at him and saying, "That's a player we absolutely have to acquire", it wouldn't matter. I'm not sure there's even one team saying that. What could we have legitimately expected for a guy who's expensive and clearly past his prime? I just think that drives the return more than anything Phil could've said.
Why are these idiots even bothering with this horseshit now? Phil is gone and he got a pile of money. Was one of "Phil's initiatives" making that imbecile Kurt Rambis the head coach?
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other crony Ronald Lazenby is now saying Mills was part of the reason Phil didn't work here. Mills "obstructed" Jackson's initiatives.
Why are these idiots even bothering with this horseshit now? Phil is gone and he got a pile of money. Was one of "Phil's initiatives" making that imbecile Kurt Rambis the head coach?
lazenby also proclaimed rambis would be head coach and that he already had the job
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In comment 13525592 DanMetroMan said:
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other crony Ronald Lazenby is now saying Mills was part of the reason Phil didn't work here. Mills "obstructed" Jackson's initiatives.
Why are these idiots even bothering with this horseshit now? Phil is gone and he got a pile of money. Was one of "Phil's initiatives" making that imbecile Kurt Rambis the head coach?
lazenby also proclaimed rambis would be head coach and that he already had the job
And was a forgettable Bond
Shit, with the amounts that Mills is doling us, it wouldn't surprise me if he signed Noah to that deal.
The ploy will likely work.
Steve Mills: Not Penske material
Because everyone knows that the Knicks are so desperate to be chosen by the player that they dont say no to this stuff. It's a gross lack of organizational self confidence. And no one worries about 3 years later because they'll be thru 2 more GMs by then.
knicks never have leverage because they suck so bad...
look at durant taking less money so the warriors can sign their bench guys and the gm said he offered to take even less...
did melo do that? nope, he could of taken continuous 2 year deals to give knicks flexibility but of course melo had to have his money...
courtney lee has to be kicking himself right now, took less to be here and now he probably wont even start
actually it was magic johnson, they offered him the job first and he said no and said they should hire Isaiah
Sad part is that KP is probably going to come in any play the whole season in F-U mode, and average something like 24-8-2.5, and make Jimmy and Mills look better than they should look.
That's his point. When you are the knicks and you are a joke, players play for money, not to win.
Fast forward 2 years and compare the 2. T Wolves have an elite head coach. The Knicks are on their 3rd coach in 2 years and zero direction as a franchise. Minny acquired Jimmy Butler, Jeff Teague, Justin Patton and Taj Gibson this offseason. Along with an extra 1st round pick from Utah. They also own all their future picks and didn't try to trade KAT.
2 Franchises going in complete different directions over 2 years.
Though I don't think anyone's losing sleep about Jeff Teague.
Though I don't think anyone's losing sleep about Jeff Teague.
Somehow we will end up with Ryan Anderson in the Melo trade and the Rockets will be the ones with the right to swap picks...
Fast forward 2 years and compare the 2. T Wolves have an elite head coach. The Knicks are on their 3rd coach in 2 years and zero direction as a franchise. Minny acquired Jimmy Butler, Jeff Teague, Justin Patton and Taj Gibson this offseason. Along with an extra 1st round pick from Utah. They also own all their future picks and didn't try to trade KAT.
2 Franchises going in complete different directions over 2 years.
Wiggins, Lavine, all of their picks =/= all that similar, even putting aside the fact that they won the lottery.
Fast forward 2 years and compare the 2. T Wolves have an elite head coach. The Knicks are on their 3rd coach in 2 years and zero direction as a franchise. Minny acquired Jimmy Butler, Jeff Teague, Justin Patton and Taj Gibson this offseason. Along with an extra 1st round pick from Utah. They also own all their future picks and didn't try to trade KAT.
2 Franchises going in complete different directions over 2 years.
I completely disagree that these teams were in similar situations... that's not even remotely true. The T'Wolves have whiffed on a bunch of really high picks (Flynn, Wesley Johnson, Derrick Williams), yet still were in a better position than the Knicks because they've ALWAYS had their picks.
KAT joined a team that already had 4 T'Wolves first round picks on it and that doesn't even include Andrew Wiggins.
KP joined a team that had Jerian Grant.
That's a big difference in assets and upside. Sure the Knicks could've gotten Thibs. Would they be able to trade for Jimmy Butler? No. They don't even have the assets to match the substandard return the Bulls got. I know people hate Phil Jackson, but I seriously doubt even the best of front office people would've turned the Knicks around in 3+ years because they all would've been dealing with the same issue of depleted assets in terms of traded draft picks and a roster without attractive trading pieces like a 25 year-old Kevin Love.
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At the end of the 2015 season, Minny and New York were in similar situations. I know Minnesota had Wiggins/ Lavine and all their picks but they were similar situations. T wolves truly tanked the end of the year while the Knicks won meaningless games that bumped them to 4th. Both teams still came away with 2 franchise talents from the 2015 draft.
Fast forward 2 years and compare the 2. T Wolves have an elite head coach. The Knicks are on their 3rd coach in 2 years and zero direction as a franchise. Minny acquired Jimmy Butler, Jeff Teague, Justin Patton and Taj Gibson this offseason. Along with an extra 1st round pick from Utah. They also own all their future picks and didn't try to trade KAT.
2 Franchises going in complete different directions over 2 years.
I completely disagree that these teams were in similar situations... that's not even remotely true. The T'Wolves have whiffed on a bunch of really high picks (Flynn, Wesley Johnson, Derrick Williams), yet still were in a better position than the Knicks because they've ALWAYS had their picks.
KAT joined a team that already had 4 T'Wolves first round picks on it and that doesn't even include Andrew Wiggins.
KP joined a team that had Jerian Grant.
That's a big difference in assets and upside. Sure the Knicks could've gotten Thibs. Would they be able to trade for Jimmy Butler? No. They don't even have the assets to match the substandard return the Bulls got. I know people hate Phil Jackson, but I seriously doubt even the best of front office people would've turned the Knicks around in 3+ years because they all would've been dealing with the same issue of depleted assets in terms of traded draft picks and a roster without attractive trading pieces like a 25 year-old Kevin Love.
And the Knicks had Carmelo who was a year away from finishing 3rd in the MVP voting. Situations aren't all that different.
My overall point is even a dreaful franchise can turn it around with the right leadership. The Knicks don't have that leadership. Every trade/ contract/ signing sucks for the team.
And the Knicks had Carmelo who was a year away from finishing 3rd in the MVP voting. Situations aren't all that different.
My overall point is even a dreaful franchise can turn it around with the right leadership. The Knicks don't have that leadership. Every trade/ contract/ signing sucks for the team.
Whatever one thinks of Phil, he was severely hamstrung by decisions made before he took the job. IMO, the ONLY thing Phil could've done to drastically change the direction of the franchise over the course of 3+ years was to trade Melo immediately. But how many people thought he should do that? I know I didn't.
Everywhere I go, I hear everybody say
What you gonna do to make that team play
From the folks in the street at 34th and 6th
Everyone who calls says, Hey man, fix the Knicks
(Chorus)
Fix the Knicks and make them shine
Get em to win like its 69
Hitting all their free throws and no more shooting bricks
Time to get it right and fix the Knicks
Doing my best and thats my problem
I check with my friend called Isiah Thomas
Pay no mind to those nasty critics
They havent done a thing to fix the Knicks
(Chorus)
We know were getting better, but still no respect
We score a lot of points, but wheres the defense?
Everyones an expert saying Trade your draft picks
You got to get this guy to fix the Knicks
(Chorus)
Quote:
And the Knicks had Carmelo who was a year away from finishing 3rd in the MVP voting. Situations aren't all that different.
My overall point is even a dreaful franchise can turn it around with the right leadership. The Knicks don't have that leadership. Every trade/ contract/ signing sucks for the team.
Whatever one thinks of Phil, he was severely hamstrung by decisions made before he took the job. IMO, the ONLY thing Phil could've done to drastically change the direction of the franchise over the course of 3+ years was to trade Melo immediately. But how many people thought he should do that? I know I didn't.
Not having draft picks in 2014 and 2016 definitely hurt and probably preventing you from truly rebuilding/tanking. But does anyone believe Phil would have gone through a full rebuild?
Trading Carmelo would have been unpopular and hard to do. But thats what good GMs do. Phil's bad trades is what really hurt the Knicks. He didn't make one good trade. And he definitely could have moved Melo in a sign and trade to get some assets. He was just really bad at his job.
freat defensive mind but he is a bad head coach...
his bulls teams were anchkred by a great defensive player and his kffense was carried by derrick rose...
Not having draft picks in 2014 and 2016 definitely hurt and probably preventing you from truly rebuilding/tanking. But does anyone believe Phil would have gone through a full rebuild?
Trading Carmelo would have been unpopular and hard to do. But thats what good GMs do. Phil's bad trades is what really hurt the Knicks. He didn't make one good trade. And he definitely could have moved Melo in a sign and trade to get some assets. He was just really bad at his job.
That leads to the next question of whether Dolan would've allowed Phil to trade Melo 12+ months after he finished top 3 in the MVP voting. Phil was in control, but just like anywhere else, the owner can still make the final decision whenever he wants (like he did when he killed the Rambis head coach idea).
Keeping 1st round picks is hardly a guarantee for success (see some of the AWFUL lottery picks made by Sacramento), but they're extremely valuable assets. Even a guy who hasn't shown much like Kris Dunn has value. We could complain about the coaches, the triangle, the Noah contract, or the return for Tyson Chandler, but think about the players who were drafted in 2014 and 2016 in their spots (Saric and Jamal Murray)... how different would the Knicks look with those guys on the roster? Keep in mind, those 2 weren't even the best players the Knicks could've selected there.
Based off the Baker and THJ contracts, hard to have any faith in Mills or whoever is running things to get a decent return. What a disappointing offseason for the Knicks.
Everywhere I go, I hear everybody say
What you gonna do to make that team play
From the folks in the street at 34th and 6th
Everyone who calls says, Hey man, fix the Knicks
(Chorus)
Fix the Knicks and make them shine
Get em to win like its 69
Hitting all their free throws and no more shooting bricks
Time to get it right and fix the Knicks
Doing my best and thats my problem
I check with my friend called Isiah Thomas
Pay no mind to those nasty critics
They havent done a thing to fix the Knicks
(Chorus)
We know were getting better, but still no respect
We score a lot of points, but wheres the defense?
Everyones an expert saying Trade your draft picks
You got to get this guy to fix the Knicks
(Chorus)
I'd question whether this is actually true. But it has to be. It just has to be.
I want Dolan dead. I'm not afraid to say it. Damn me to hell for all I care. I'll burn for all eternity for knicks nation.
He looks awesome. Still it's summer league. But the Jazz lose Heyward for nothing and still have a better offseason than the Knicks.
You're trying to make a joke, but there's a good chance getting Sam Cassell would be better value than whatever the Knicks get back for Melo.
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Knicks just traded Carmelo Anthony for the rights to Sam Cassell! Nice job Mills. Great PG.
You're trying to make a joke, but there's a good chance getting Sam Cassell would be better value than whatever the Knicks get back for Melo.
Like I said. Nice job Mills.
you do realize summer league has 90 percent d league players right?
dont go blowing your load just yet
watxhing youtube highlights doesnt count as watching film...
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37 pts and 7 steals. I know it's summer league but he is draining long threes draining jumpers of the dribble and finishing at the room, but it does not matter because we have frenchy and Baker running the show.
you do realize summer league has 90 percent d league players right?
dont go blowing your load just yet
This guy is obsessed with Mitchell. Dont bother.
Oh, and that Fran, the champion of all foreign players, thinks he will be solid after a couple of years of development. Great.
Now we have someone more suited to run a hedge fund dishing out money like it's monopoly and we are supposed to feel confident about moves made by Knicks?
I know Phil drafted Frenchy, still....
Oh, and that Fran, the champion of all foreign players, thinks he will be solid after a couple of years of development. Great.
Now we have someone more suited to run a hedge fund dishing out money like it's monopoly and we are supposed to feel confident about moves made by Knicks?
I know Phil drafted Frenchy, still....
what are you talking about?
he bumped knees in game 5 of his championships and it was sore so the knicks held him out, you know same thing lakers are doing with ingram and ball..
also why would you hear anything there are no team workouts now...
Well, l guess we will have to wait until training camp to see is he's the goods.
I just don't like the philosophy of drafting somone for his attitude/temperament rather than ability.
Well, l guess we will have to wait until training camp to see is he's the goods.
I just don't like the philosophy of drafting somone for his attitude/temperament rather than ability.
If we were drafting BBI members based on their ability to have "the goods" when they comment, instead of their attitude/temperament...
I guess we wouldn't had to endure your last two shitty comments
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Hold on. You're saying Frankie French wasn't your choice candidate for the pick?
Kentavious Caldwell-Pope has agreed to a one-year, $18 million deal with the Lakers, sources tell ESPN.
Kentavious Caldwell-Pope has agreed to a one-year, $18 million deal with the Lakers, sources tell ESPN.
Adrian WojnarowskiVerified account @wojespn
Adrian Wojnarowski Retweeted Adrian Wojnarowski
Sources: Despite committing $18M for Caldwell-Pope, Lakers still trying to find a way to sign Rondo. Lakers have a $4.3M exception to use.
Good thing we used that money to sign Ron Baker
It is. NY Post: James Dolan regrets writing Fix the Knicks Song
From the article:
MSG used to be a Garden of delight in the early '70's...now, the pit of Hell. As Dante said, "Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate".
Kentavious Caldwell-Pope has agreed to a one-year, $18 million deal with the Lakers, sources tell ESPN.
Too early to judge the new Lakers front office. Pelinka's experience as an agent might give him a leg up on other GM's when it comes to managing the cap, and offering smarter contracts. At least they're not handing out obviously atrocious deals like the Mozgov deal.
Quote:
Brian WindhorstVerified account @WindhorstESPN
Kentavious Caldwell-Pope has agreed to a one-year, $18 million deal with the Lakers, sources tell ESPN.
Adrian WojnarowskiVerified account @wojespn
Adrian Wojnarowski Retweeted Adrian Wojnarowski
Sources: Despite committing $18M for Caldwell-Pope, Lakers still trying to find a way to sign Rondo. Lakers have a $4.3M exception to use.
Good thing we used that money to sign Ron Baker
The only problem is that for the lakers. If Caldwell pope plays good. Then they are in a crummy position. They most likely have to pay him more than Hardaway. Or he ends up posting 14-17 ppg 4 and 3 and ends up getting a deal around timmys from a different team next year. If lakers had him locked in for 2 years with a team option. Then I could see being annoyed. However. I am not a fan of KCP at all
... once he learned he couldnt get 100 or whatever his desired # was. Reportedly he turned down 80/5.
GMEN46 : 7/11/2017 7:09 pm : link : reply
37 pts and 7 steals. I know it's summer league but he is draining long threes draining jumpers of the dribble and finishing at the room, but it does not matter because we have frenchy and Baker running the show.
And Jimmer Fredette was a D-League star throwing in 37 points and 8 assists in his very first game there!
You know how many guys are out there like Mitchell (or Jimmer) who light it up at the lower level and then get to the NBA and throw up miniscule averages and can't get off the end of the bench?
he was not restricted, knicks renounced his rights tmwhen they signed hardaway
i am actually more scared what happens if the knicks actually open cap room
Frank is 18 and will develop but will need time and patience. Take a look at this video from well respected site Draft Express to get an unbiased view of the kid.
Link - ( New Window )
because who cares if they are better right away...
you are not drafting for right now, you are draftimg for a couple of years from now...
not evwry supserstar that comes in plays great right away, you are killing frank because he is not nba ready yet, he is 18 fucking years old...
stop talking like you know how these guys are going to turn out, you have no idea, you can gave an opinion but stop lecturing all of us on how you watched film and know what mitchell will be, you dont know shit...
watching youtube highlights tell you nothing
You're getting ripped because you say things as if it's a fact. It's not. Frank has incredible upside even if you don't see it. Numerous scouts and observers have said so.
Just fucking wait it out.
And this is possible bullshit too. Define contribute? Who knows how good Smith/Mitchell are by this November. Who knows if Frank isn't ready to make an impact by the same time. Why can't Frank play 20 min a night? Because he's raw and skinny? No one knows. KP wasn't ready either.
no one is hating on them, we are just sayong you have no freaking clue what these guys are going to be in the nba...
smith and mitchell may very well be all stars but you have no idea of knowing that right now...
and you cant seem to grasp the concept of opinion and fact...
But they act like they are experts on his future contributions. Good parallel to KP there. I thought he was too skinny and raw to play in the NBA and that was based on highlights from Euro games where he stayed on the perimeter. Man, that was dead wrong.
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minutes while Mitchell and Smith Jr definitely seem to be ready to contribute right now.
And this is possible bullshit too. Define contribute? Who knows how good Smith/Mitchell are by this November. Who knows if Frank isn't ready to make an impact by the same time. Why can't Frank play 20 min a night? Because he's raw and skinny? No one knows. KP wasn't ready either.
This isn't a fair comparison. KP put up solid numbers in the #2 league in the world. Regarded as a higher level of ball than NCAA. Frank played in a far lower league and even those who really like him (like Fraschilla) and the Knicks (on record looking for a veteran PG) are acknowledging it's going to take some time. If you watched him play you would see an interesting skillset but not NBA ready. Labeyrie (his own teammate) (and adversary in France) praised him but noted he's not yet on par with NBA players physically.
But they act like they are experts on his future contributions. Good parallel to KP there. I thought he was too skinny and raw to play in the NBA and that was based on highlights from Euro games where he stayed on the perimeter. Man, that was dead wrong.
Again this isn't an apt comparison. KP is a freak of nature 7'3 kid who has unlimited range and unusual athleticism for a man his size. He played and contributed in the #2 league in the world. Frank played sparingly in a garbage league and more importantly his play directly impacts KP/Willy. Willy (for example) could have played like garbage this year and not impacted the development of KP. Major, major difference when it comes to PG or any other position.
^this, i am on of franks biggest fans on here and even i dont think he will log major minutes at the point for a couple of years...
i think he is a versatile 2 guard for right now, more than likely a 3 and d guy until he gets his handle stronger...
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minutes while Mitchell and Smith Jr definitely seem to be ready to contribute right now.
And this is possible bullshit too. Define contribute? Who knows how good Smith/Mitchell are by this November. Who knows if Frank isn't ready to make an impact by the same time. Why can't Frank play 20 min a night? Because he's raw and skinny? No one knows. KP wasn't ready either.
That's fair. There's uncertainty. But we know that Frank is not the athlete that those guys are. Not at all. We'll see if his "feel for the game" can make up for that stuff. I wanted Smith JR with the pick. Odds that Frank matches DSJ's rookie year are pretty slim, IMO. He has talent but he wasn't dominating in the fucking french league. it's hard to believe that he'll be a contributor here right away. And he's also not a fucking unicorn. Playing guard is a lot more challenging in the NBA than if you're physically unlike any other player in the league, like KP is. There are lots of players with FN's athletic profile.
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flaw in the people opining about Frank is that they literally have nothing to go on but highlights they've seen in the past few weeks.
But they act like they are experts on his future contributions. Good parallel to KP there. I thought he was too skinny and raw to play in the NBA and that was based on highlights from Euro games where he stayed on the perimeter. Man, that was dead wrong.
Again this isn't an apt comparison. KP is a freak of nature 7'3 kid who has unlimited range and unusual athleticism for a man his size. He played and contributed in the #2 league in the world. Frank played sparingly in a garbage league and more importantly his play directly impacts KP/Willy. Willy (for example) could have played like garbage this year and not impacted the development of KP. Major, major difference when it comes to PG or any other position.
i wouldnt say sparingly, he started and played 18 mins a game, kp came off the bench and played 20, granted in a better league..
willy for example played sparingly his last year in the acb...
I've also read that some scouts believe that his first step could become a lot better from physical maturation and weight training. Basically, his legs need to get stronger before anyone decides that he doesnt have a great first step.
What excites me about Frank is that in addition to great side and good athleticism, and good shooting, all the reports on the intangibles are what you want to hear. It's so easy to just look at a guard and see the explosion etc. But there are a lot of physically gifted guards who arent guys that winning teams want to build around. Frank appears to be a gym rat, hard worker, and WILLING passer (not just a bail out passer like Rose). That's the stuff you need to be a winning player, and not just a talented player.
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Jackson himself called him a project. I have no idea how he turns out but I'm very confident in saying he's not going to be a starting NBA PG quality player initially. He's just not.
^this, i am on of franks biggest fans on here and even i dont think he will log major minutes at the point for a couple of years...
i think he is a versatile 2 guard for right now, more than likely a 3 and d guy until he gets his handle stronger...
Ya never know with the Knicks but I could see Frank's initial role being closer to a 2 who runs the offense in stretches vs. a pure PG. They may feel more comfortable with him getting actual minutes at the 2 where if he struggles it doesn't hurt the rest of the team as much. He wasn't the primary ball handler for Strasbourg (at least not in the playoffs) that was Erving Walker aka fake Isiah Thomas/fake Nate.
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In comment 13526151 DanMetroMan said:
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Jackson himself called him a project. I have no idea how he turns out but I'm very confident in saying he's not going to be a starting NBA PG quality player initially. He's just not.
^this, i am on of franks biggest fans on here and even i dont think he will log major minutes at the point for a couple of years...
i think he is a versatile 2 guard for right now, more than likely a 3 and d guy until he gets his handle stronger...
Ya never know with the Knicks but I could see Frank's initial role being closer to a 2 who runs the offense in stretches vs. a pure PG. They may feel more comfortable with him getting actual minutes at the 2 where if he struggles it doesn't hurt the rest of the team as much. He wasn't the primary ball handler for Strasbourg (at least not in the playoffs) that was Erving Walker aka fake Isiah Thomas/fake Nate.
he was the primary in the u18 games where he was mvp but he was turnover prone
If the upside is there (even the Greek Freak did not take the NBA by storm) then it actually behooves the Knicks to develop their young talent, get another high lottery pick or two, and then in year 3 when Frank is all of 21, he might be ready to start and make an impact in the NBA.
There are a lot of theory's today that wingspan is a better indicator of NBA success than almost any other physical characteristic. And Frank, already a big PG at 6' 6' has an astounding 7 ft wingspan. And he's 18.
Patience for the Knick organization is critical.
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Maybe the stars (CP3/Harden and Melo) are all "demanding" it behind the scenes a la Lebron with the Love deal.
we're so going to get fucked in this deal. Mills is an amateur swimming with sharks right now.
which is why waiting and going to camp with him isn't the worst thing in the world.
yup....
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Sources: Knicks, Rockets working on Carmelo Anthony trade scenarios that include four-team deals. Sides motivated but no agreement imminent.
we're so going to get fucked in this deal. Mills is an amateur swimming with sharks right now.
from what i read portland is willing to take anderson but knicks are looking for a 4th team to take leonard
More
Tommy Beer Retweeted Adrian Wojnarowski
Will be interesting to see if NY waits until completion of Melo trade before signing Ron Baker
Waiting could potentially save room exception
Yuck. Leonard owed 31.7 million, Harkness 31 million and the Knicks will be just good enough to win 31-33 games and pick 7th.
More
Tommy Beer Retweeted Adrian Wojnarowski
Will be interesting to see if NY waits until completion of Melo trade before signing Ron Baker
Waiting could potentially save room exception
was just about to post this, if knicks wait to announce this, then we know they are waoting to do melo deal...
the good news knicks didnt say ok houston anderson and gordon done deal...
if it is 4 teams they are at least
hopefully pawning off anderson and leonard somewhere else, i am ok takong harklesz and a pick...
harkless is only 24 years old
true
Possible? yep. likely? Meh. I do think it's a good sign that it's taking some time to come to a deal. There's all kinds of shitty options that are available. I just hope that they have the guts to pass on a deal and keep Melo if they can't get value out of trading him. His contract looks less and less ridiculous every offseason now. They shouldn't just give him away.
At least he's a productive NBA player with a high level skill that would not diminish over the next 3 years.
"Great to hear it buddy"
I think a Mudiay, Faried and Harkless package would be very good all things considered
Who knows what they all ultimately amount to and it's early to get too hyped up (of course I'd prefer my rookie draft picks outperform the summer league competition than not).
That said, the reason why I personally didnt love the pick is because the expert analysis (at least that I heard) on ESPN the night of the draft from Jay Bilas and a few others, is that Frank's ceiling was described as "solid pro". Forget about superstar or franchise player for a moment, I didnt even hear anything about impact or all star or anything on that level.
I understand they were picking 8th, but with 2-3 guys who project at that level or beyond, I would have aimed higher.
Don't pretend 2B wired anymore. Still, I am told Melo-Rockets trade holdup is D'Antoni. Does not want him. Melo knows! It'll happen anyway!
Don't pretend 2B wired anymore. Still, I am told Melo-Rockets trade holdup is D'Antoni. Does not want him. Melo knows! It'll happen anyway!
why would morey keep pushing for a trade if his head coach did not want it? that doesnt make much sense
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Peter Vecsey ✔@PeterVecsey1
Don't pretend 2B wired anymore. Still, I am told Melo-Rockets trade holdup is D'Antoni. Does not want him. Melo knows! It'll happen anyway!
why would morey keep pushing for a trade if his head coach did not want it? that doesnt make much sense
That's Morey being Morey. I'm sure as an advanced metrics guy, he doesn't think the coach matters that much either.
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Peter Vecsey ✔@PeterVecsey1
Don't pretend 2B wired anymore. Still, I am told Melo-Rockets trade holdup is D'Antoni. Does not want him. Melo knows! It'll happen anyway!
why would morey keep pushing for a trade if his head coach did not want it? that doesnt make much sense
Promise to CP3? Belief that players matter more than coaches?
No one really knows. It's all just speculation. But the Rockets don't have a lot to trade, and what they have which is good, like Clint Capela and the Chinese prospect Qi, is stuff they want to keep very much.
He's not what he once was but this is a big deal for Houston. Carmelo's presence would greatly impact their team.
CLAUSE
Who knows what they all ultimately amount to and it's early to get too hyped up (of course I'd prefer my rookie draft picks outperform the summer league competition than not).
That said, the reason why I personally didnt love the pick is because the expert analysis (at least that I heard) on ESPN the night of the draft from Jay Bilas and a few others, is that Frank's ceiling was described as "solid pro". Forget about superstar or franchise player for a moment, I didnt even hear anything about impact or all star or anything on that level.
I understand they were picking 8th, but with 2-3 guys who project at that level or beyond, I would have aimed higher.
I'd be wary about relying on Jay BIlas's opinion on a French leaguer. I cant fathom that he scouted Frank or knows much about him.
I dont really understand the low ceiling opinions on Frank. Somehow "doesnt have an explosive first step" turned into a consensus that he's an average athlete etc.
He's a very good athlete with an under developed frame. Very common for Euros. Physically and athletically he has a great ceiling, especially because he has the physical tools to be a great defender (isnt one now). Whereas DSJ better be Baron Davis on offense because his defensive potential is limited.
The only saving grace is mills is parroting the whole younger, athletic mantra. But I'm scared the melo deal mimics the Ewing trade/fiasco.
lol cmon phil.
The low ceiling stuff on Frank given his attributes doesn't really make sense to me. ESPN's analytics/538 group (while rating Frank as the 12th% best prospect) give him the highest odds in the entire draft to be an all-star in years 2-5. It also gives him the highest odds to not be a starter. A classic "boom-bust" pick. Link included at the bottom of my post.
It's hard to compare his stats to college players because it's not an apples to apples comparison:
""If he was on a different team, he would definitely average more points, because right now he's only playing 20 minutes," Travis says. "Those guys in college, they're playing 30-plus minutes, they're getting any shot they want. That's not how we play.
"Coach wants our guards to play structured and controlled -- that's what Frank does.""
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19681478/most-likely-all-stars-starters-role-players-top-2017-nba-draft - ( New Window )
Frank checks off every box that this franchise and notably KP, sorely needs. We don't need a guy that can dazzle with highlight reel quicks or thunderous dunks. We need a guy like frank who reaches his potential.
he makes it sound like that is the last step...
there is an article but on my phone if someone can poat it
Worse than sitting would be no special treatment. Sit him when his effort is low, or when he doesnt play within the schemes. Yell at him during stoppages like everyone else, on camera. Brutal honesty in post game press conferences.
he makes it sound like that is the last step...
there is an article but on my phone if someone can poat it
Uggh. Someone else is going to get assets for renting out their cap space. If should have been us. We should have done the Carroll trade.
he makes it sound like that is the last step...
there is an article but on my phone if someone can poat it
It's almost certainly Myers Leonard.
The low ceiling stuff on Frank given his attributes doesn't really make sense to me. ESPN's analytics/538 group (while rating Frank as the 12th% best prospect) give him the highest odds in the entire draft to be an all-star in years 2-5. It also gives him the highest odds to not be a starter. A classic "boom-bust" pick. Link included at the bottom of my post.
I recall reading when that came out that the wide range of outcomes their model had on Frank was less of a boom-or-bust issue and more of a lack of data issue (due to low minutes, and maybe league issues). Frank shouldnt be boom or bust since he's got a number of viable ways to make a rotation -- even if he doesnt full pan out his frame could let him be a defensive specialist, or his 3 point shot could be real and he could be a shooting guard (including reserve). Whereas guys who have problem shots and defensively-limiting frames are maybe more likely to be total washouts.
I know nothing about Leonard. What is keeping him from more significant minutes? The shooting? Defense? Other?
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for context, the Blazers aren't even sure Leonard will be part of their rotation if he's on the team. That's how bad he's been. 5 years in the league, high pick and the Blazers never saw fit giving him significant burn (and they are a well run franchise having made the playoffs 7 of the past 9 seasons and having drafted and developed Lillard, Aldridge, McCollum, Batum (drafted by the Rockets at request of the Blazers, developed by the Blazers), Patty Mills, Crabbe etc
I know nothing about Leonard. What is keeping him from more significant minutes? The shooting? Defense? Other?
Previously the issue was health. ALWAYS dinged but this year he managed to play 74 games and stunk. His shooting % is a bit misleading as he has an extremely slow release so while he can knock down 3's he only takes wide open shots. He himself acknowledged his release issue
"There have been a lot of little, intricate things Drew has pointed out that helps me build a better shot routine. Hopefully that transitions into games to where I just feel really good with what Im doing and how Im doing it."
He managed to shoot a combined 39% from the field which is tough to do at his size. He's also has had back problems off and on. Any time I've seen him play he struck me as one of those classic "looks the part" but has never put it together and if anything has gone backwards. He'd be a nice player to gamble on at low money but with his owed money I wouldn't touch him with a 10 foot pole. Stotts has already said he has to earn a spot in the rotation. Players going into year 6 shouldn't be in that spot.
As bad as Mudiay has been this is a no-brainer. That said, Mudiay has been shockingly bad defensively which I guess is more fixable than his shot but to be that bad on defense as such a great athlete is scary. But yeah Mudiay over Napier 10/10 times.
Yes, but this trade(or series of trades if Lee is dealt) will probably create cap space to sign Rondo.
That said, I can see some other contender that needs some offense from their 2nd unit getting him cheap and making it work. He's like a poor man's JR Smith.
i say apparently because i didnt hear him say it
i say apparently because i didnt hear him say it
maybe we can get lebron in the deal for Melo if we throw in Baker or THJ.
The 50K Rule any player who earns more than $50,000 from an NBA team via training camp partial guarantee cannot play for that teams G League affiliate for the following season.
Now, things are getting muddy. Try to follow me here. In the past it did not matter what players were partially guaranteed at camp. If they were waived they could play for that franchises G League team as an affiliate player (subject to a four player max). Now, that is clearly not the case. This will limit how much players can earn before moving to the paltry salaries of the G League, and it sucks.
Link - ( New Window )
i say apparently because i didnt hear him say it
"Hello Steve, now that Phil is gone, do you want Shumpert back? No, ok, thanks anyway. What about J.... ok, right."
@NYDNSports
JUST IN: @nyknicks - @HoustonRockets deal to send Carmelo to Houston "is at the two yard line
On Wednesday, ESPN reported that the Knicks and Rockets are trying to recruit a fourth team into a proposed deal to facilitate a blockbuster trade. The deal needs to be expanded due to Anthony's contract and the fact that the Knicks are opposed to acquiring Rockets forward Ryan Anderson.
The Knicks plan is to avoid adding veteran players with long term contracts.
Bondy - ( New Window )
I think someone took the line "The Cavaliers haven't abandoned pursuit of Anthony, league sources said." in his ESPN article this afternoon to mean they're making a "late push"
Sources: Knicks, Rockets working on Carmelo Anthony trade scenarios - ( New Window )
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calling BS but I don't see anyone else citing this Woj/Cavs report, Knicks Reddit or retweeting it on twitter.
I think someone took the line "The Cavaliers haven't abandoned pursuit of Anthony, league sources said." in his ESPN article this afternoon to mean they're making a "late push" Sources: Knicks, Rockets working on Carmelo Anthony trade scenarios - ( New Window )
Makes sense.
I'll take Mudiay or Bledsoe
thanks dan wasnt sure...
and i really wish i trusted the dailynews, although isola is close with melos agent
Something decent better be coming back. Not expecting much, but borderline rotation guys who have already been extended dont excite me. I'd just as soon hold on to Melo and revisit a trade next week or during the season.
Something decent better be coming back. Not expecting much, but borderline rotation guys who have already been extended dont excite me. I'd just as soon hold on to Melo and revisit a trade next week or during the season.
i dont think its anderson because woj said they had a 3rd team willing to help but there was 1 player that neither knicks nor houston wanted...
I agree, but as an "ex-Knicks fan" I'm rooting for an absurdly stupid trade. Mills has shown he's capable of that.
Harkless
Ed Davis
Ariza expiring
Napier
Fill in contracts
Hopefully protected #1 but doubtful
Blazers
Ryan Anderson
But Blazers will need to get rid of more salary to make it worth it Leonard craabe or tuner have to be on their way out. I have to think it's turner or craabe to cut tax bill. In order for someone to take one of those awful contracts those has to start with a 1st and 2nd of you think about Carroll trade. Plus these contracts are a year longer than Carroll. What I am fearful is knicks will include lee and take on turner and get protected first which I am not sure about. Would rather trade lee at trade deadline to a contender for a future #1. There will be a contender that loses someone during the season and lee is a great fill in guy.
""It was me," Cuban said. "Donnie [Nelson] was like, 'OK, I'm putting my you-know-whats on the table.' He was doing the Sam Cassell, Nick Van Exel dance. ... It's all in. And I'm like, 'Donnie, we have this plan.' Because even as good as the Greek Freak has turned out to be, he was still three years away, and we wanted to try to get somebody who could help get us to the top right there and then. Didn't turn out that way, it is what it is, that happens."
and in his defense Dirk was still an elite player (and they were chasing stars) so they likely cared more about helping right away than they should have but GF legit took 3 years before he as anything special