but the suggestion that Frank cannot become a better ball handler is about as ridiculous of a statement as you can make. It's not an ability that you are born with, it's something that every single player works on and can improve on. It's a physical ability. You don't cap out on your ball handling at 24 years old.
flaw in the people opining about Frank is that they literally have nothing to go on but highlights they've seen in the past few weeks.
But they act like they are experts on his future contributions. Good parallel to KP there. I thought he was too skinny and raw to play in the NBA and that was based on highlights from Euro games where he stayed on the perimeter. Man, that was dead wrong.
RE: RE: The issue with Frank is that, as noted, he's probably not ready for
minutes while Mitchell and Smith Jr definitely seem to be ready to contribute right now.
And this is possible bullshit too. Define contribute? Who knows how good Smith/Mitchell are by this November. Who knows if Frank isn't ready to make an impact by the same time. Why can't Frank play 20 min a night? Because he's raw and skinny? No one knows. KP wasn't ready either.
This isn't a fair comparison. KP put up solid numbers in the #2 league in the world. Regarded as a higher level of ball than NCAA. Frank played in a far lower league and even those who really like him (like Fraschilla) and the Knicks (on record looking for a veteran PG) are acknowledging it's going to take some time. If you watched him play you would see an interesting skillset but not NBA ready. Labeyrie (his own teammate) (and adversary in France) praised him but noted he's not yet on par with NBA players physically.
Jackson himself called him a project. I have no idea how he turns out but I'm very confident in saying he's not going to be a starting NBA PG quality player initially. He's just not.
flaw in the people opining about Frank is that they literally have nothing to go on but highlights they've seen in the past few weeks.
But they act like they are experts on his future contributions. Good parallel to KP there. I thought he was too skinny and raw to play in the NBA and that was based on highlights from Euro games where he stayed on the perimeter. Man, that was dead wrong.
Again this isn't an apt comparison. KP is a freak of nature 7'3 kid who has unlimited range and unusual athleticism for a man his size. He played and contributed in the #2 league in the world. Frank played sparingly in a garbage league and more importantly his play directly impacts KP/Willy. Willy (for example) could have played like garbage this year and not impacted the development of KP. Major, major difference when it comes to PG or any other position.
Jackson himself called him a project. I have no idea how he turns out but I'm very confident in saying he's not going to be a starting NBA PG quality player initially. He's just not.
^this, i am on of franks biggest fans on here and even i dont think he will log major minutes at the point for a couple of years...
i think he is a versatile 2 guard for right now, more than likely a 3 and d guy until he gets his handle stronger...
RE: RE: The issue with Frank is that, as noted, he's probably not ready for
minutes while Mitchell and Smith Jr definitely seem to be ready to contribute right now.
And this is possible bullshit too. Define contribute? Who knows how good Smith/Mitchell are by this November. Who knows if Frank isn't ready to make an impact by the same time. Why can't Frank play 20 min a night? Because he's raw and skinny? No one knows. KP wasn't ready either.
That's fair. There's uncertainty. But we know that Frank is not the athlete that those guys are. Not at all. We'll see if his "feel for the game" can make up for that stuff. I wanted Smith JR with the pick. Odds that Frank matches DSJ's rookie year are pretty slim, IMO. He has talent but he wasn't dominating in the fucking french league. it's hard to believe that he'll be a contributor here right away. And he's also not a fucking unicorn. Playing guard is a lot more challenging in the NBA than if you're physically unlike any other player in the league, like KP is. There are lots of players with FN's athletic profile.
flaw in the people opining about Frank is that they literally have nothing to go on but highlights they've seen in the past few weeks.
But they act like they are experts on his future contributions. Good parallel to KP there. I thought he was too skinny and raw to play in the NBA and that was based on highlights from Euro games where he stayed on the perimeter. Man, that was dead wrong.
Again this isn't an apt comparison. KP is a freak of nature 7'3 kid who has unlimited range and unusual athleticism for a man his size. He played and contributed in the #2 league in the world. Frank played sparingly in a garbage league and more importantly his play directly impacts KP/Willy. Willy (for example) could have played like garbage this year and not impacted the development of KP. Major, major difference when it comes to PG or any other position.
i wouldnt say sparingly, he started and played 18 mins a game, kp came off the bench and played 20, granted in a better league..
willy for example played sparingly his last year in the acb...
RE: I've stayed out of these conversations for various reasons,
but the suggestion that Frank cannot become a better ball handler is about as ridiculous of a statement as you can make. It's not an ability that you are born with, it's something that every single player works on and can improve on. It's a physical ability. You don't cap out on your ball handling at 24 years old.
I've also read that some scouts believe that his first step could become a lot better from physical maturation and weight training. Basically, his legs need to get stronger before anyone decides that he doesnt have a great first step.
What excites me about Frank is that in addition to great side and good athleticism, and good shooting, all the reports on the intangibles are what you want to hear. It's so easy to just look at a guard and see the explosion etc. But there are a lot of physically gifted guards who arent guys that winning teams want to build around. Frank appears to be a gym rat, hard worker, and WILLING passer (not just a bail out passer like Rose). That's the stuff you need to be a winning player, and not just a talented player.
Jackson himself called him a project. I have no idea how he turns out but I'm very confident in saying he's not going to be a starting NBA PG quality player initially. He's just not.
^this, i am on of franks biggest fans on here and even i dont think he will log major minutes at the point for a couple of years...
i think he is a versatile 2 guard for right now, more than likely a 3 and d guy until he gets his handle stronger...
Ya never know with the Knicks but I could see Frank's initial role being closer to a 2 who runs the offense in stretches vs. a pure PG. They may feel more comfortable with him getting actual minutes at the 2 where if he struggles it doesn't hurt the rest of the team as much. He wasn't the primary ball handler for Strasbourg (at least not in the playoffs) that was Erving Walker aka fake Isiah Thomas/fake Nate.
Jackson himself called him a project. I have no idea how he turns out but I'm very confident in saying he's not going to be a starting NBA PG quality player initially. He's just not.
^this, i am on of franks biggest fans on here and even i dont think he will log major minutes at the point for a couple of years...
i think he is a versatile 2 guard for right now, more than likely a 3 and d guy until he gets his handle stronger...
Ya never know with the Knicks but I could see Frank's initial role being closer to a 2 who runs the offense in stretches vs. a pure PG. They may feel more comfortable with him getting actual minutes at the 2 where if he struggles it doesn't hurt the rest of the team as much. He wasn't the primary ball handler for Strasbourg (at least not in the playoffs) that was Erving Walker aka fake Isiah Thomas/fake Nate.
he was the primary in the u18 games where he was mvp but he was turnover prone
That's just quick twitch fiber. Either you are born with that or you aren't. That being said, being smart(savvy) and getting stronger will certainly help.
for one am not capping his upside at all but I'd be beyond shocked if he's playing major PG minutes for the Knicks to open the season and succeeding. Anyone who watched those games saw flashes of good and flashes of things he needs to work on. One thing worth noting is he was consistently in foul trouble vs. sub-NBA talent, he will need to learn on the job.
total BS but people are suggesting if the Rockets deal is truly imminent it will happen by Friday as CP3's presser is that day and presumably they would want to introduce them together. Still seems pretty odd players have made it sound like it will happen and yet NO rumors of players involved?
It's actually preferable if Frank is not ready to start
If the upside is there (even the Greek Freak did not take the NBA by storm) then it actually behooves the Knicks to develop their young talent, get another high lottery pick or two, and then in year 3 when Frank is all of 21, he might be ready to start and make an impact in the NBA.
There are a lot of theory's today that wingspan is a better indicator of NBA success than almost any other physical characteristic. And Frank, already a big PG at 6' 6' has an astounding 7 ft wingspan. And he's 18.
total BS but people are suggesting if the Rockets deal is truly imminent it will happen by Friday as CP3's presser is that day and presumably they would want to introduce them together. Still seems pretty odd players have made it sound like it will happen and yet NO rumors of players involved?
Maybe the stars (CP3/Harden and Melo) are all "demanding" it behind the scenes a la Lebron with the Love deal.
apparently has scouts raving, I'm sure Portland is eager to dump Leonard and his crappy contract. Leonard was healthy for the first time in 4 seasons and yet flat sucked
leonard to a third team without giving said team an asset to take him. So i guess we are taking Harkless/Leonard in the deal to make salary work and then whatever morey throws in cause he feels bad for us.
Tommy BeerVerified account @TommyBeer 3m3 minutes ago
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Tommy Beer Retweeted Adrian Wojnarowski
Will be interesting to see if NY waits until completion of Melo trade before signing Ron Baker
Waiting could potentially save room exception
leonard to a third team without giving said team an asset to take him. So i guess we are taking Harkless/Leonard in the deal to make salary work and then whatever morey throws in cause he feels bad for us.
Yuck. Leonard owed 31.7 million, Harkness 31 million and the Knicks will be just good enough to win 31-33 games and pick 7th.
Tommy BeerVerified account @TommyBeer 3m3 minutes ago
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Tommy Beer Retweeted Adrian Wojnarowski
Will be interesting to see if NY waits until completion of Melo trade before signing Ron Baker
Waiting could potentially save room exception
was just about to post this, if knicks wait to announce this, then we know they are waoting to do melo deal...
basketball expert Stephon Marbury really talked up Qi and Ding (the Chinese kid Dallas has). Maybe the post-Yao China boom we saw for a bit is coming back?
i have is that the knicks somewhat like the pieces they are getting back. Otherwise why not just trade him to CLE for expirings and Osman. Why deal with Anderson, harkless, leonard, etc.... CLE can easily make a deal with expirings. Now i know we have zero faith in the FO, which is why i said "tiny glimmer"
i have is that the knicks somewhat like the pieces they are getting back. Otherwise why not just trade him to CLE for expirings and Osman. Why deal with Anderson, harkless, leonard, etc.... CLE can easily make a deal with expirings. Now i know we have zero faith in the FO, which is why i said "tiny glimmer"
the good news knicks didnt say ok houston anderson and gordon done deal...
if it is 4 teams they are at least
hopefully pawning off anderson and leonard somewhere else, i am ok takong harklesz and a pick...
is harkless. His contract isnt horrible and he still has some upside. If nothing else he is a useful NBA player (unlike leonard). If its harkless and some youth or picks ill be content. Plus once we trade melo we have a pretty big hole at SF. At least harkless can fill that and is still only 24
yeah i know he is young. I was more clarifying that i didnt want him to be the only asset we are getting. And if he was still on a rookie deal or something id be much happier with him.
yeah i know he is young. I was more clarifying that i didnt want him to be the only asset we are getting. And if he was still on a rookie deal or something id be much happier with him.
Possible? yep. likely? Meh. I do think it's a good sign that it's taking some time to come to a deal. There's all kinds of shitty options that are available. I just hope that they have the guts to pass on a deal and keep Melo if they can't get value out of trading him. His contract looks less and less ridiculous every offseason now. They shouldn't just give him away.
for Anderson? By how much is he really overpaid? His contract sucks but if assets are being thrown in so that someone will take his deal - I'd have to at least consider just taking him and the assets for myself, along with whatever else is coming back.
At least he's a productive NBA player with a high level skill that would not diminish over the next 3 years.
Frank/Smith Jr/Mitchell argument, but I have to chime in.
Who knows what they all ultimately amount to and it's early to get too hyped up (of course I'd prefer my rookie draft picks outperform the summer league competition than not).
That said, the reason why I personally didnt love the pick is because the expert analysis (at least that I heard) on ESPN the night of the draft from Jay Bilas and a few others, is that Frank's ceiling was described as "solid pro". Forget about superstar or franchise player for a moment, I didnt even hear anything about impact or all star or anything on that level.
I understand they were picking 8th, but with 2-3 guys who project at that level or beyond, I would have aimed higher.
Peter Vecsey ✔@PeterVecsey1
Don't pretend 2B wired anymore. Still, I am told Melo-Rockets trade holdup is D'Antoni. Does not want him. Melo knows! It'll happen anyway!
Peter Vecsey ✔@PeterVecsey1
Don't pretend 2B wired anymore. Still, I am told Melo-Rockets trade holdup is D'Antoni. Does not want him. Melo knows! It'll happen anyway!
why would morey keep pushing for a trade if his head coach did not want it? that doesnt make much sense
Peter Vecsey ✔@PeterVecsey1
Don't pretend 2B wired anymore. Still, I am told Melo-Rockets trade holdup is D'Antoni. Does not want him. Melo knows! It'll happen anyway!
why would morey keep pushing for a trade if his head coach did not want it? that doesnt make much sense
That's Morey being Morey. I'm sure as an advanced metrics guy, he doesn't think the coach matters that much either.
Peter Vecsey ✔@PeterVecsey1
Don't pretend 2B wired anymore. Still, I am told Melo-Rockets trade holdup is D'Antoni. Does not want him. Melo knows! It'll happen anyway!
why would morey keep pushing for a trade if his head coach did not want it? that doesnt make much sense
Promise to CP3? Belief that players matter more than coaches?
no one is hating on them, we are just sayong you have no freaking clue what these guys are going to be in the nba...
smith and mitchell may very well be all stars but you have no idea of knowing that right now...
and you cant seem to grasp the concept of opinion and fact...
But they act like they are experts on his future contributions. Good parallel to KP there. I thought he was too skinny and raw to play in the NBA and that was based on highlights from Euro games where he stayed on the perimeter. Man, that was dead wrong.
Quote:
minutes while Mitchell and Smith Jr definitely seem to be ready to contribute right now.
And this is possible bullshit too. Define contribute? Who knows how good Smith/Mitchell are by this November. Who knows if Frank isn't ready to make an impact by the same time. Why can't Frank play 20 min a night? Because he's raw and skinny? No one knows. KP wasn't ready either.
This isn't a fair comparison. KP put up solid numbers in the #2 league in the world. Regarded as a higher level of ball than NCAA. Frank played in a far lower league and even those who really like him (like Fraschilla) and the Knicks (on record looking for a veteran PG) are acknowledging it's going to take some time. If you watched him play you would see an interesting skillset but not NBA ready. Labeyrie (his own teammate) (and adversary in France) praised him but noted he's not yet on par with NBA players physically.
But they act like they are experts on his future contributions. Good parallel to KP there. I thought he was too skinny and raw to play in the NBA and that was based on highlights from Euro games where he stayed on the perimeter. Man, that was dead wrong.
Again this isn't an apt comparison. KP is a freak of nature 7'3 kid who has unlimited range and unusual athleticism for a man his size. He played and contributed in the #2 league in the world. Frank played sparingly in a garbage league and more importantly his play directly impacts KP/Willy. Willy (for example) could have played like garbage this year and not impacted the development of KP. Major, major difference when it comes to PG or any other position.
^this, i am on of franks biggest fans on here and even i dont think he will log major minutes at the point for a couple of years...
i think he is a versatile 2 guard for right now, more than likely a 3 and d guy until he gets his handle stronger...
Quote:
minutes while Mitchell and Smith Jr definitely seem to be ready to contribute right now.
And this is possible bullshit too. Define contribute? Who knows how good Smith/Mitchell are by this November. Who knows if Frank isn't ready to make an impact by the same time. Why can't Frank play 20 min a night? Because he's raw and skinny? No one knows. KP wasn't ready either.
That's fair. There's uncertainty. But we know that Frank is not the athlete that those guys are. Not at all. We'll see if his "feel for the game" can make up for that stuff. I wanted Smith JR with the pick. Odds that Frank matches DSJ's rookie year are pretty slim, IMO. He has talent but he wasn't dominating in the fucking french league. it's hard to believe that he'll be a contributor here right away. And he's also not a fucking unicorn. Playing guard is a lot more challenging in the NBA than if you're physically unlike any other player in the league, like KP is. There are lots of players with FN's athletic profile.
Quote:
flaw in the people opining about Frank is that they literally have nothing to go on but highlights they've seen in the past few weeks.
But they act like they are experts on his future contributions. Good parallel to KP there. I thought he was too skinny and raw to play in the NBA and that was based on highlights from Euro games where he stayed on the perimeter. Man, that was dead wrong.
Again this isn't an apt comparison. KP is a freak of nature 7'3 kid who has unlimited range and unusual athleticism for a man his size. He played and contributed in the #2 league in the world. Frank played sparingly in a garbage league and more importantly his play directly impacts KP/Willy. Willy (for example) could have played like garbage this year and not impacted the development of KP. Major, major difference when it comes to PG or any other position.
i wouldnt say sparingly, he started and played 18 mins a game, kp came off the bench and played 20, granted in a better league..
willy for example played sparingly his last year in the acb...
I've also read that some scouts believe that his first step could become a lot better from physical maturation and weight training. Basically, his legs need to get stronger before anyone decides that he doesnt have a great first step.
What excites me about Frank is that in addition to great side and good athleticism, and good shooting, all the reports on the intangibles are what you want to hear. It's so easy to just look at a guard and see the explosion etc. But there are a lot of physically gifted guards who arent guys that winning teams want to build around. Frank appears to be a gym rat, hard worker, and WILLING passer (not just a bail out passer like Rose). That's the stuff you need to be a winning player, and not just a talented player.
Quote:
Jackson himself called him a project. I have no idea how he turns out but I'm very confident in saying he's not going to be a starting NBA PG quality player initially. He's just not.
^this, i am on of franks biggest fans on here and even i dont think he will log major minutes at the point for a couple of years...
i think he is a versatile 2 guard for right now, more than likely a 3 and d guy until he gets his handle stronger...
Ya never know with the Knicks but I could see Frank's initial role being closer to a 2 who runs the offense in stretches vs. a pure PG. They may feel more comfortable with him getting actual minutes at the 2 where if he struggles it doesn't hurt the rest of the team as much. He wasn't the primary ball handler for Strasbourg (at least not in the playoffs) that was Erving Walker aka fake Isiah Thomas/fake Nate.
Quote:
In comment 13526151 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
Jackson himself called him a project. I have no idea how he turns out but I'm very confident in saying he's not going to be a starting NBA PG quality player initially. He's just not.
^this, i am on of franks biggest fans on here and even i dont think he will log major minutes at the point for a couple of years...
i think he is a versatile 2 guard for right now, more than likely a 3 and d guy until he gets his handle stronger...
Ya never know with the Knicks but I could see Frank's initial role being closer to a 2 who runs the offense in stretches vs. a pure PG. They may feel more comfortable with him getting actual minutes at the 2 where if he struggles it doesn't hurt the rest of the team as much. He wasn't the primary ball handler for Strasbourg (at least not in the playoffs) that was Erving Walker aka fake Isiah Thomas/fake Nate.
he was the primary in the u18 games where he was mvp but he was turnover prone
If the upside is there (even the Greek Freak did not take the NBA by storm) then it actually behooves the Knicks to develop their young talent, get another high lottery pick or two, and then in year 3 when Frank is all of 21, he might be ready to start and make an impact in the NBA.
There are a lot of theory's today that wingspan is a better indicator of NBA success than almost any other physical characteristic. And Frank, already a big PG at 6' 6' has an astounding 7 ft wingspan. And he's 18.
Patience for the Knick organization is critical.
Link - ( New Window )
Maybe the stars (CP3/Harden and Melo) are all "demanding" it behind the scenes a la Lebron with the Love deal.
we're so going to get fucked in this deal. Mills is an amateur swimming with sharks right now.
which is why waiting and going to camp with him isn't the worst thing in the world.
yup....
Quote:
Sources: Knicks, Rockets working on Carmelo Anthony trade scenarios that include four-team deals. Sides motivated but no agreement imminent.
we're so going to get fucked in this deal. Mills is an amateur swimming with sharks right now.
from what i read portland is willing to take anderson but knicks are looking for a 4th team to take leonard
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Tommy Beer Retweeted Adrian Wojnarowski
Will be interesting to see if NY waits until completion of Melo trade before signing Ron Baker
Waiting could potentially save room exception
Yuck. Leonard owed 31.7 million, Harkness 31 million and the Knicks will be just good enough to win 31-33 games and pick 7th.
More
Tommy Beer Retweeted Adrian Wojnarowski
Will be interesting to see if NY waits until completion of Melo trade before signing Ron Baker
Waiting could potentially save room exception
was just about to post this, if knicks wait to announce this, then we know they are waoting to do melo deal...
the good news knicks didnt say ok houston anderson and gordon done deal...
if it is 4 teams they are at least
hopefully pawning off anderson and leonard somewhere else, i am ok takong harklesz and a pick...
harkless is only 24 years old
true
Possible? yep. likely? Meh. I do think it's a good sign that it's taking some time to come to a deal. There's all kinds of shitty options that are available. I just hope that they have the guts to pass on a deal and keep Melo if they can't get value out of trading him. His contract looks less and less ridiculous every offseason now. They shouldn't just give him away.
At least he's a productive NBA player with a high level skill that would not diminish over the next 3 years.
"Great to hear it buddy"
I think a Mudiay, Faried and Harkless package would be very good all things considered
Who knows what they all ultimately amount to and it's early to get too hyped up (of course I'd prefer my rookie draft picks outperform the summer league competition than not).
That said, the reason why I personally didnt love the pick is because the expert analysis (at least that I heard) on ESPN the night of the draft from Jay Bilas and a few others, is that Frank's ceiling was described as "solid pro". Forget about superstar or franchise player for a moment, I didnt even hear anything about impact or all star or anything on that level.
I understand they were picking 8th, but with 2-3 guys who project at that level or beyond, I would have aimed higher.
Don't pretend 2B wired anymore. Still, I am told Melo-Rockets trade holdup is D'Antoni. Does not want him. Melo knows! It'll happen anyway!
Don't pretend 2B wired anymore. Still, I am told Melo-Rockets trade holdup is D'Antoni. Does not want him. Melo knows! It'll happen anyway!
why would morey keep pushing for a trade if his head coach did not want it? that doesnt make much sense
Quote:
Peter Vecsey ✔@PeterVecsey1
Don't pretend 2B wired anymore. Still, I am told Melo-Rockets trade holdup is D'Antoni. Does not want him. Melo knows! It'll happen anyway!
why would morey keep pushing for a trade if his head coach did not want it? that doesnt make much sense
That's Morey being Morey. I'm sure as an advanced metrics guy, he doesn't think the coach matters that much either.
Quote:
Peter Vecsey ✔@PeterVecsey1
Don't pretend 2B wired anymore. Still, I am told Melo-Rockets trade holdup is D'Antoni. Does not want him. Melo knows! It'll happen anyway!
why would morey keep pushing for a trade if his head coach did not want it? that doesnt make much sense
Promise to CP3? Belief that players matter more than coaches?