You guys really want to sit through 2+ years of Mills/Houston praying they are either shockingly good or prove they are so bad that we are trying again?
Don't put words in my mouth, I prefer to have no part of that. But I did say:
Quote:
At this point
steve in ky : 1:17 pm : link : reply
Since it looks like Mills as President and they likley wont get anyone great coming in from the outside I would almost rather they promote Houston to the GM and see what he could do making the personnel decisions rather than Mills.
Surely you can see the distinction between that and wanting Mills/Houston
I'm not looking to argue semantics but I fail to see what going with Houston does. You said "almost rather" and I'm suggesting this shouldn't be something anyone would "rather". He's unqualified. That's the long and short of it. Almost ANY other person they bring in will have a more impressive resume and maybe just maybe some interesting/new ideas.
yet to see any indication Dolan really cares about the Knicks actually being good. If they sell out the garden that's really all that matters and they have no real problem doing that because of corporate accounts, celebs etc. You guys really want to sit through 2+ years of Mills/Houston praying they are either shockingly good or prove they are so bad that we are trying again? I don't personally believe KP will leave as a FA but I wouldn't risk getting this close to the sun. Another really bad regime and yeah, I think he's a goner.
Oh, don't get me wrong. I completely agree with your take on things and that's likely how things play out with Houston/Mills leading the way. I'm just looking for a sliver of a silver lining for when those 2 "officially" take over.
Besides, I live in MN. It'll be easy for me to start rooting for the home town team! Hell, if Towns/Wiggins reach their "ceilings" they might even be the ones to knock the Warriors off their perch!
Houston and Mills wouldn't even be considered for an interview with another team let alone get another GM job. From ESPN -"Steve Mills is a prince of a guy," the source said, "but there isn't one other club in the league that would've hired him".
It's now all doom and gloom though. Warkentien is a former exec of the year ( not sure of his current role though), Mark Hughes and Kevin Wilson are well respected. But you have let your GM/ President pick his own staff.
Houston and Warkentien are represented by CAA, wonder how that would work if both were up for the same job? Not that it matters, Houston would be a joke of a signing. Warkentien wouldn't be my first choice (he's 64, extremely close with Dolan and Mills...) but far better than Houston.
He's going for his doctorate so maybe he's just not that interested in such a major role at his age. His bio (presumably written by him) is kind of funny because it mentions highlights at different spots
"
LocationCleveland/Akron, Ohio Area
Served as Cleveland Cavaliers interim general manager in the 2 1/2 months before the 2005 NBA Draft. Traded Jiri Welsch for a second-round pick and did not pick up contract options of Lucious Harris and Robert Traylor, clearing $6.5 million of salary-cap room to be spent in summer of 2005."
I forgot the Knicks also have John Gabriel. What a weird front office makeup. I'm still surprised Phil only brought on 1 giuy to the front office. Remember all those articles about "Phil cleaning house. No more catering to CAA" when he was hired?
Unrelated but Bucks interested in Ian Clark. Seeking 8 mill a year. Would have much preferred Clark for 3 years at 27mill then the THJ signing...
I forgot the Knicks also have John Gabriel. What a weird front office makeup. I'm still surprised Phil only brought on 1 giuy to the front office. Remember all those articles about "Phil cleaning house. No more catering to CAA" when he was hired?
Unrelated but Bucks interested in Ian Clark. Seeking 8 mill a year. Would have much preferred Clark for 3 years at 27mill then the THJ signing...
I think I recall that he WANTED to clean house, and that story quietly died.
Another thing regarding Knicks-Rangers comparisons Â
Like Sather or not, there was no question that he was 100% in charge of the Rangers. Same is true now with Jeff Gorton. The Knicks are more byzantine - how much power did Phil have versus Mills or Warkentien? Does anyone really know? Is Mills completely in control now? How much does Dolan actually stick his nose into?
Honestly, what the Knicks' situation reminds me most of Â
is the Yankees, where for a long time there were more or less duplicate front offices - one in Tampa, one in NY, plus George's infamous "baseball people" like Clyde King who were "special advisors" with no official authority but who held influence with GS. It was that way for a long time until Cashman finally forced the Steinbrenners to give him the ultimate authority over the Tampa faction.
is the Yankees, where for a long time there were more or less duplicate front offices - one in Tampa, one in NY, plus George's infamous "baseball people" like Clyde King who were "special advisors" with no official authority but who held influence with GS. It was that way for a long time until Cashman finally forced the Steinbrenners to give him the ultimate authority over the Tampa faction.
That's true, aside from the Knicks lacking a Cashman-level personnel talent.
RE: RE: Honestly, what the Knicks' situation reminds me most of Â
is the Yankees, where for a long time there were more or less duplicate front offices - one in Tampa, one in NY, plus George's infamous "baseball people" like Clyde King who were "special advisors" with no official authority but who held influence with GS. It was that way for a long time until Cashman finally forced the Steinbrenners to give him the ultimate authority over the Tampa faction.
That's true, aside from the Knicks lacking a Cashman-level personnel talent.
Well, our European scouting has delivered KP when Mudiay, Hez, and others looked like candidates, told us to trade for Willy, and landed us Kuz for free (part of scouting is recruiting).
sooner roll the dice on Wilson based on the Knicks european success than go with Houston and that's with knowing Wilson has no (to my knowledge) experience negotiating trades or contracts.
the tar out of Mills, obviously he wants to show he should be the personel guy, he has publicly stated he wants a young "core" to grow together (his thinking with bringing back THJ), I would be surprised if he takes back veterans with bad contracts to trade Melo. If he eventually gets picks or young assets would we not be pleasantly surprised. It seems like he at least has the right kind of plan. That's something at least.
Melo doesn't land in Houston then this JSports guy can be ignored going forward. He didn't couch his statements or make it sound like it "might" happen.
Melo doesn't land in Houston then this JSports guy can be ignored going forward. He didn't couch his statements or make it sound like it "might" happen.
it is the first time i have seen him tweet in such a definite term...
1. Mills refused to give Griffin (or anyone else) full decision making power
2. Dolan will not allow an outside GM to bring in his own guys and/remove "his" guys.
Do most GMs have full decision making power vis a vis ownership? Does this mean Griffin wouldnt have full decision power vis a vis Mills, or Dolan?
If the answer is that Mills refused to give Griffin full power with respect to Griffin vs. Mills, then we already have our answer -- Mills is ultimately in charge, and is looking for what amounts to a deputy.
1> Lonzo Ball
2> Donovan Mitchell (two way- shut down Tatum).
3> Jonathan Isaac (two way- incredible athelete with elite d)
4> Tatum- Going to be very good, but needs to get stronger
5> Josh Hart ready to play.
1. Mills refused to give Griffin (or anyone else) full decision making power
2. Dolan will not allow an outside GM to bring in his own guys and/remove "his" guys.
was this in an article? radio spot?
Begley
Two things have become clear in the wake of ex-Cleveland Cavaliers GM David Griffin pulling his name out of the running for the New York Knicks president/GM job:
1. Current GM Steve Mills will want some authority over basketball decisions going forward, no matter whom the Knicks bring in.
2. Knicks owner James Dolan won’t allow any executive from the outside to come in and fire/reassign the Knicks’ current executives to bring in his or her own people.
Those, according to ESPN’s Adrian Wojnarowski, were two major sticking points in conversations between Griffin and the Knicks. (Griffin met on Friday night with Mills). And those were two major reasons Griffin pulled his name out of the running.
It makes sense that Griffin would want autonomy and final say over front-office staffing: That's typical for any executive who comes in from the outside.
Now, it seems clear that Mills will have at least some -- and maybe full -- autonomy when it comes to making basketball decisions. It's hard to see a big-name executive agreeing to join the Knicks without autonomy and freedom to bring in his or her own staff -- something the Knicks to date have been unwilling to grant. Link - ( New Window )
1. Mills refused to give Griffin (or anyone else) full decision making power
2. Dolan will not allow an outside GM to bring in his own guys and/remove "his" guys.
Do most GMs have full decision making power vis a vis ownership? Does this mean Griffin wouldnt have full decision power vis a vis Mills, or Dolan?
If the answer is that Mills refused to give Griffin full power with respect to Griffin vs. Mills, then we already have our answer -- Mills is ultimately in charge, and is looking for what amounts to a deputy.
Ian Begley answers your question-
"It makes sense that Griffin would want autonomy and final say over front-office staffing: That's typical for any executive who comes in from the outside."
Steve Popper ✔ @StevePopper
Tim [Hardaway Jr.] on Knicks: "They said straight up, ‘You have to obviously improve a lot more on defense and improve a lot more on the offensive end.’"
3:06 PM - 10 Jul 2017
where the Knicks just amuse me. It's a lot easier.
I am convinced that Dolan is angry at all the fans who hate him and want him gone and out of spite he is doing all of this to get back at us. As long as he is still making money he will keep the status quo.
But the fact that they just threw money at THJ (who said publicly would like Melo to stay) and also expressed interest in Rondo and Rose is definitely concerning.
I never thought I would say this but I would rather have Daniel F'in Snyder as the owner of the Knicks instead of Dolan.
Eh, I often think Knicks fans deserve Dolan. They are, by far, the dumbest and most impatient fan base of any team that I follow. I love their passion, and obviously everyone isnt dumb. But there are enough dumb voices out there pulling the franchise into a dumb direction that it's frankly a testament to Mills that he blew their money on a youngish THJR instead of maxing out a PG, re-upping Rose, or dumping a wad on Redick or ZBo or some other famous name. Well, almost a testament. It's still too rich a deal with an inexplicable opt out and kicker.
What's the word on Ntilikina? Will he suit up soon for summer league? Â
a Melo to Houston deal is Portland, who else could be interested in taking on Anderson's contract? Who do we think says no to the following trade:
NY gets: Eric Gordon, Mo Harkless, Tim Quarterman, and Chinanu Onuaku (or whichever random $1mil player Houston wants)
Houston gets: Carmelo Anthony, Evan Turner
Portland gets: Ryan Anderson
Why each team benefits:
NY gets rid of Carmelo while bringing in young pieces in Harkless and Quarterman, as well as Eric Gordon who can serve as vet presence off the bench or more likely can be flipped into another younger asset at some point in the future.
Houston is able to bring in Melo to give them a "big 3" and is a more versatile weapon offensively than Ryan Anderson. They also are able to bring in Turner to fill in the sixth man role being vacated by Gordon. Perhaps Pringles can get the best out of him and he will be closer to the player he was in Boston than the disaster of a fit that he was in Portland.
Portland is able to rid themselves of Turner's contract and bring in Anderson who would fit much better alongside Nurkic, Lillard, McCollum, etc.
RE: The team I have heard floated most as the possible third team in Â
a Melo to Houston deal is Portland, who else could be interested in taking on Anderson's contract? Who do we think says no to the following trade:
NY gets: Eric Gordon, Mo Harkless, Tim Quarterman, and Chinanu Onuaku (or whichever random $1mil player Houston wants)
Houston gets: Carmelo Anthony, Evan Turner
Portland gets: Ryan Anderson
Mike. Houston cannot fit Melo and Turners contracts in their cap
You are talking about 44 million
Gordon and Anderson only add up 35 million
Why each team benefits:
NY gets rid of Carmelo while bringing in young pieces in Harkless and Quarterman, as well as Eric Gordon who can serve as vet presence off the bench or more likely can be flipped into another younger asset at some point in the future.
Houston is able to bring in Melo to give them a "big 3" and is a more versatile weapon offensively than Ryan Anderson. They also are able to bring in Turner to fill in the sixth man role being vacated by Gordon. Perhaps Pringles can get the best out of him and he will be closer to the player he was in Boston than the disaster of a fit that he was in Portland.
Portland is able to rid themselves of Turner's contract and bring in Anderson who would fit much better alongside Nurkic, Lillard, McCollum, etc.
a Melo to Houston deal is Portland, who else could be interested in taking on Anderson's contract? Who do we think says no to the following trade:
NY gets: Eric Gordon, Mo Harkless, Tim Quarterman, and Chinanu Onuaku (or whichever random $1mil player Houston wants)
Houston gets: Carmelo Anthony, Evan Turner
Portland gets: Ryan Anderson
Mike. Houston cannot fit Melo and Turners contracts in their cap
You are talking about 44 million
Gordon and Anderson only add up 35 million
Why each team benefits:
NY gets rid of Carmelo while bringing in young pieces in Harkless and Quarterman, as well as Eric Gordon who can serve as vet presence off the bench or more likely can be flipped into another younger asset at some point in the future.
Houston is able to bring in Melo to give them a "big 3" and is a more versatile weapon offensively than Ryan Anderson. They also are able to bring in Turner to fill in the sixth man role being vacated by Gordon. Perhaps Pringles can get the best out of him and he will be closer to the player he was in Boston than the disaster of a fit that he was in Portland.
Portland is able to rid themselves of Turner's contract and bring in Anderson who would fit much better alongside Nurkic, Lillard, McCollum, etc.
Quote:
You guys really want to sit through 2+ years of Mills/Houston praying they are either shockingly good or prove they are so bad that we are trying again?
Don't put words in my mouth, I prefer to have no part of that. But I did say:
Quote:
At this point
steve in ky : 1:17 pm : link : reply
Since it looks like Mills as President and they likley wont get anyone great coming in from the outside I would almost rather they promote Houston to the GM and see what he could do making the personnel decisions rather than Mills.
Surely you can see the distinction between that and wanting Mills/Houston
I'm not looking to argue semantics but I fail to see what going with Houston does. You said "almost rather" and I'm suggesting this shouldn't be something anyone would "rather". He's unqualified. That's the long and short of it. Almost ANY other person they bring in will have a more impressive resume and maybe just maybe some interesting/new ideas.
Oh, don't get me wrong. I completely agree with your take on things and that's likely how things play out with Houston/Mills leading the way. I'm just looking for a sliver of a silver lining for when those 2 "officially" take over.
Besides, I live in MN. It'll be easy for me to start rooting for the home town team! Hell, if Towns/Wiggins reach their "ceilings" they might even be the ones to knock the Warriors off their perch!
It's now all doom and gloom though. Warkentien is a former exec of the year ( not sure of his current role though), Mark Hughes and Kevin Wilson are well respected. But you have let your GM/ President pick his own staff.
The strange thing is he has a pretty good GM resume. No idea why they don't just give him back the reins.
Scout with the Sonics
Scouting director in Portland
Assistant GM with Portland
Interim GM for the Cavs
VP with Houston
Consultant with the Rockets
He's going for his doctorate so maybe he's just not that interested in such a major role at his age. His bio (presumably written by him) is kind of funny because it mentions highlights at different spots
"
LocationCleveland/Akron, Ohio Area
Served as Cleveland Cavaliers interim general manager in the 2 1/2 months before the 2005 NBA Draft. Traded Jiri Welsch for a second-round pick and did not pick up contract options of Lucious Harris and Robert Traylor, clearing $6.5 million of salary-cap room to be spent in summer of 2005."
the jokes write themselves.
I forgot the Knicks also have John Gabriel. What a weird front office makeup. I'm still surprised Phil only brought on 1 giuy to the front office. Remember all those articles about "Phil cleaning house. No more catering to CAA" when he was hired?
Unrelated but Bucks interested in Ian Clark. Seeking 8 mill a year. Would have much preferred Clark for 3 years at 27mill then the THJ signing...
I forgot the Knicks also have John Gabriel. What a weird front office makeup. I'm still surprised Phil only brought on 1 giuy to the front office. Remember all those articles about "Phil cleaning house. No more catering to CAA" when he was hired?
Unrelated but Bucks interested in Ian Clark. Seeking 8 mill a year. Would have much preferred Clark for 3 years at 27mill then the THJ signing...
I think I recall that he WANTED to clean house, and that story quietly died.
Hand the Keys to KP and tank.
maybe sign Jennings to come back play some Pg
That's true, aside from the Knicks lacking a Cashman-level personnel talent.
Quote:
is the Yankees, where for a long time there were more or less duplicate front offices - one in Tampa, one in NY, plus George's infamous "baseball people" like Clyde King who were "special advisors" with no official authority but who held influence with GS. It was that way for a long time until Cashman finally forced the Steinbrenners to give him the ultimate authority over the Tampa faction.
That's true, aside from the Knicks lacking a Cashman-level personnel talent.
Well, our European scouting has delivered KP when Mudiay, Hez, and others looked like candidates, told us to trade for Willy, and landed us Kuz for free (part of scouting is recruiting).
Link - ( New Window )
it is the first time i have seen him tweet in such a definite term...
1. Mills refused to give Griffin (or anyone else) full decision making power
2. Dolan will not allow an outside GM to bring in his own guys and/remove "his" guys.
1. Mills refused to give Griffin (or anyone else) full decision making power
2. Dolan will not allow an outside GM to bring in his own guys and/remove "his" guys.
Because everything has worked so well.
Lol Knicks.
1. Mills refused to give Griffin (or anyone else) full decision making power
2. Dolan will not allow an outside GM to bring in his own guys and/remove "his" guys.
Do most GMs have full decision making power vis a vis ownership? Does this mean Griffin wouldnt have full decision power vis a vis Mills, or Dolan?
If the answer is that Mills refused to give Griffin full power with respect to Griffin vs. Mills, then we already have our answer -- Mills is ultimately in charge, and is looking for what amounts to a deputy.
1. Mills refused to give Griffin (or anyone else) full decision making power
2. Dolan will not allow an outside GM to bring in his own guys and/remove "his" guys.
was this in an article? radio spot?
2> Donovan Mitchell (two way- shut down Tatum).
3> Jonathan Isaac (two way- incredible athelete with elite d)
4> Tatum- Going to be very good, but needs to get stronger
5> Josh Hart ready to play.
Quote:
says
1. Mills refused to give Griffin (or anyone else) full decision making power
2. Dolan will not allow an outside GM to bring in his own guys and/remove "his" guys.
was this in an article? radio spot?
Begley
Two things have become clear in the wake of ex-Cleveland Cavaliers GM David Griffin pulling his name out of the running for the New York Knicks president/GM job:
1. Current GM Steve Mills will want some authority over basketball decisions going forward, no matter whom the Knicks bring in.
2. Knicks owner James Dolan won’t allow any executive from the outside to come in and fire/reassign the Knicks’ current executives to bring in his or her own people.
Those, according to ESPN’s Adrian Wojnarowski, were two major sticking points in conversations between Griffin and the Knicks. (Griffin met on Friday night with Mills). And those were two major reasons Griffin pulled his name out of the running.
It makes sense that Griffin would want autonomy and final say over front-office staffing: That's typical for any executive who comes in from the outside.
Now, it seems clear that Mills will have at least some -- and maybe full -- autonomy when it comes to making basketball decisions. It's hard to see a big-name executive agreeing to join the Knicks without autonomy and freedom to bring in his or her own staff -- something the Knicks to date have been unwilling to grant.
Link - ( New Window )
Quote:
says
1. Mills refused to give Griffin (or anyone else) full decision making power
2. Dolan will not allow an outside GM to bring in his own guys and/remove "his" guys.
Do most GMs have full decision making power vis a vis ownership? Does this mean Griffin wouldnt have full decision power vis a vis Mills, or Dolan?
If the answer is that Mills refused to give Griffin full power with respect to Griffin vs. Mills, then we already have our answer -- Mills is ultimately in charge, and is looking for what amounts to a deputy.
Ian Begley answers your question-
"It makes sense that Griffin would want autonomy and final say over front-office staffing: That's typical for any executive who comes in from the outside."
Tim [Hardaway Jr.] on Knicks: "They said straight up, ‘You have to obviously improve a lot more on defense and improve a lot more on the offensive end.’"
3:06 PM - 10 Jul 2017
I am convinced that Dolan is angry at all the fans who hate him and want him gone and out of spite he is doing all of this to get back at us. As long as he is still making money he will keep the status quo.
I can see a scenario where Phil is scapegoated and everyone else acts as if this never happened and they pretend they are contenders.
I can see a scenario where Phil is scapegoated and everyone else acts as if this never happened and they pretend they are contenders.
I think it's very likely.
I can see a scenario where Phil is scapegoated and everyone else acts as if this never happened and they pretend they are contenders.
No. Just because it doesn't happen ASAP or within 20 minutes of whatever the latest tweet saying it would happen doesn't mean they want Melo back.
Eh, I often think Knicks fans deserve Dolan. They are, by far, the dumbest and most impatient fan base of any team that I follow. I love their passion, and obviously everyone isnt dumb. But there are enough dumb voices out there pulling the franchise into a dumb direction that it's frankly a testament to Mills that he blew their money on a youngish THJR instead of maxing out a PG, re-upping Rose, or dumping a wad on Redick or ZBo or some other famous name. Well, almost a testament. It's still too rich a deal with an inexplicable opt out and kicker.
NY gets: Eric Gordon, Mo Harkless, Tim Quarterman, and Chinanu Onuaku (or whichever random $1mil player Houston wants)
Houston gets: Carmelo Anthony, Evan Turner
Portland gets: Ryan Anderson
Why each team benefits:
NY gets rid of Carmelo while bringing in young pieces in Harkless and Quarterman, as well as Eric Gordon who can serve as vet presence off the bench or more likely can be flipped into another younger asset at some point in the future.
Houston is able to bring in Melo to give them a "big 3" and is a more versatile weapon offensively than Ryan Anderson. They also are able to bring in Turner to fill in the sixth man role being vacated by Gordon. Perhaps Pringles can get the best out of him and he will be closer to the player he was in Boston than the disaster of a fit that he was in Portland.
Portland is able to rid themselves of Turner's contract and bring in Anderson who would fit much better alongside Nurkic, Lillard, McCollum, etc.
NY gets: Eric Gordon, Mo Harkless, Tim Quarterman, and Chinanu Onuaku (or whichever random $1mil player Houston wants)
Houston gets: Carmelo Anthony, Evan Turner
Portland gets: Ryan Anderson
Mike. Houston cannot fit Melo and Turners contracts in their cap
You are talking about 44 million
Gordon and Anderson only add up 35 million
Why each team benefits:
NY gets rid of Carmelo while bringing in young pieces in Harkless and Quarterman, as well as Eric Gordon who can serve as vet presence off the bench or more likely can be flipped into another younger asset at some point in the future.
Houston is able to bring in Melo to give them a "big 3" and is a more versatile weapon offensively than Ryan Anderson. They also are able to bring in Turner to fill in the sixth man role being vacated by Gordon. Perhaps Pringles can get the best out of him and he will be closer to the player he was in Boston than the disaster of a fit that he was in Portland.
Portland is able to rid themselves of Turner's contract and bring in Anderson who would fit much better alongside Nurkic, Lillard, McCollum, etc.
You'd have to assume its close to done if he's posting that. Especially cause it hasn't been taking down yet and couldn't that be tampering
Quote:
to a Carmelo Anthony return?
I can see a scenario where Phil is scapegoated and everyone else acts as if this never happened and they pretend they are contenders.
No. Just because it doesn't happen ASAP or within 20 minutes of whatever the latest tweet saying it would happen doesn't mean they want Melo back.
We don't know definitively that they want to unload him in the first place. What got phil fired was suggesting they get rid of Melo at any cost.
Quote:
a Melo to Houston deal is Portland, who else could be interested in taking on Anderson's contract? Who do we think says no to the following trade:
NY gets: Eric Gordon, Mo Harkless, Tim Quarterman, and Chinanu Onuaku (or whichever random $1mil player Houston wants)
Houston gets: Carmelo Anthony, Evan Turner
Portland gets: Ryan Anderson
Mike. Houston cannot fit Melo and Turners contracts in their cap
You are talking about 44 million
Gordon and Anderson only add up 35 million
Why each team benefits:
NY gets rid of Carmelo while bringing in young pieces in Harkless and Quarterman, as well as Eric Gordon who can serve as vet presence off the bench or more likely can be flipped into another younger asset at some point in the future.
Houston is able to bring in Melo to give them a "big 3" and is a more versatile weapon offensively than Ryan Anderson. They also are able to bring in Turner to fill in the sixth man role being vacated by Gordon. Perhaps Pringles can get the best out of him and he will be closer to the player he was in Boston than the disaster of a fit that he was in Portland.
Portland is able to rid themselves of Turner's contract and bring in Anderson who would fit much better alongside Nurkic, Lillard, McCollum, etc.
It worked on ESPN Trade Machine, assumed the numbers on there are accurate.
Trade Machine - ( New Window )
Link - ( New Window )
It was there.