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Giants 2017 Positional Breakdown: Tight Ends

Eric from BBI : Admin : 7/10/2017 9:30 am
FYI...
Giants 2017 Positional Breakdown: Tight Ends - ( New Window )
I believe they carry 4..  
Big Blue '56 : 7/10/2017 9:43 am : link
Ellerson, Engram and Adams I believe are locks. Tye is most likely the 4th
I think it will be Eric's 4 TEs  
ZogZerg : 7/10/2017 9:55 am : link
LaCosse beats out Tye. Neither starting TE returns from last year.
They should keep a FB  
David B. : 7/10/2017 10:04 am : link
and one less TE. If Tye makes the team this year, there is something dreadfully wrong.
The Giants will likely keep four TE's  
SGMen : 7/10/2017 10:27 am : link
Engram, while listed as a TE; while he can lineup inline and block to the best of his ability; he is really a big slot wideout who will roam the middle of the field and keep safeties back which will help our run game. He's a hybrid.

I had Will Tye as a Giant this year before I started reading some remarks about him from Gillbride the TE coach and how Will Tye needs a "push to get motivated" at times (aka he is lazy). Really! He'll be pushed off the team with that kind of approach. I don't know if he's "fixed" his attitude cause he does have some ability, some shiftiness, and can play in this league if he gives his best.

I hope LaCosse is a really good blocker this camp and a guy who shows greenzone ability. It would be good to have two solid blocking TE's. Three if J. Adams has improved by bunches in this area. Of all the TE's not names Evan Engram, he has the most upside.

Practice Squad could have Colin Thompson. It can also have LaCosse if the Giants go 3 TE's game 1 along with 1 FB (Smith). The good thing is that we seem to have quality competition this year and that is a good thing.
This is an important point  
WillVAB : 7/10/2017 10:34 am : link
Quote:
One of the interesting things to watch is how often the Giants now move away from the 11-personel (one running back, one tight end, three wide receivers) that they used almost exclusively in 2016. And when they move away from it, how much will that cut into the playing time of a player like Sterling Shepard?


It comes down to the OL. If they improve it will give the the offense the flexibility to be a little more creative with their formations. If not, we'll see more Ellison/Engram than Shepard.
RE: They should keep a FB  
Klaatu : 7/10/2017 10:36 am : link
In comment 13524162 David B. said:
Quote:
and one less TE. If Tye makes the team this year, there is something dreadfully wrong.


I think we can do both. I'd go with Eric's four plus Shane Smith.

As for Tye, let's face it...If Fells, Donnell, and LaCosse hadn't gotten hurt, no one would know who the heck Will Tye is. He is, at best, a marginal talent and he won't be missed.
...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 7/10/2017 10:48 am : link
Sy'56 and I cover why no FB in the podcast.
RE: ...  
SGMen : 7/10/2017 10:51 am : link
In comment 13524205 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Sy'56 and I cover why no FB in the podcast.
Interesting, I look forward to listening. I realize FB's have been phased out of today's NFL as it is a passing league.
RE: ...  
Klaatu : 7/10/2017 10:57 am : link
In comment 13524205 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Sy'56 and I cover why no FB in the podcast.


Many teams carry one, including perennial powerhouses like the Patriots and the Steelers. The Giants should, too.
LaCosse a functional blocker?  
njm : 7/10/2017 10:59 am : link
Not in the last 2 preseasons before he got hurt. However much he showed in spring camp, it won't matter unless that changes.
As so many factors can come into play, I would not be shocked if  
SGMen : 7/10/2017 11:06 am : link
TE LaCosse and FB Smith but end up on the PS to start the season. 3 TE's and see how injuries go before guys start moving up to the active roster to fill for those inactive (or god forbid on IR) due to injury.

That being said, I am hoping M. LaCosse finally stays healthy; becomes a real blocker; and, shows enough receiving ability to be utilized on the field if called upon. If he makes the final 53 he'll likely be inactive on game-days. I'm not sure how skilled he is on special teams?
RE: RE: ...  
Brown Recluse : 7/10/2017 11:25 am : link
In comment 13524216 Klaatu said:
Quote:
In comment 13524205 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


Sy'56 and I cover why no FB in the podcast.



Many teams carry one, including perennial powerhouses like the Patriots and the Steelers. The Giants should, too.


Agree with Klaatu here (as usual)
RE: RE: RE: ...  
SGMen : 7/10/2017 11:32 am : link
In comment 13524246 Brown Recluse said:
Quote:
In comment 13524216 Klaatu said:


Quote:


In comment 13524205 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


Sy'56 and I cover why no FB in the podcast.



Many teams carry one, including perennial powerhouses like the Patriots and the Steelers. The Giants should, too.



Agree with Klaatu here (as usual)
If the FB is super solid on all special teams AND can be a factor as a "dump it off" receiver (left uncovered) I can see the merits of keeping him. I believe Smith plays specials, not sure how much of a receiver he could be. Write-ups say he is super strong and can lead block. Not sure what MaCadoo's thinking is here?
Excellent work as usual, Eric...  
Big Blue Blogger : 7/10/2017 11:42 am : link
...not just on the profiles of individual TEs, but also on the importance of upgrading this position.

It wouldn't be a surprise to see Tye and/or Adams occupy a veteran slot on the practice squad, since they both seem to need refinement (putting it politely). If one of them gets cut and clears waivers, that will be another piece of the ultimate verdict on last year's TE corps. I think Adams makes the team, but his scholarship is probably up.
Great job Eric  
Jay on the Island : 7/10/2017 11:43 am : link
As you mentioned a big reason why the offensive line was so poor was that they received no blocking help from the TE's. The previous season we witnessed what can happen to the defense when you remove the untalented and washed up players. I think that we can expect a similar improvement in the offense this year by removing Cruz, Donnell, Tye, and Jennings and replacing them with Marshall, Engram, Ellison, and Gallman. If the offensive line is just league average the blocking from Ellison, Adams, and Marshall should elevate their performance. If anybody wants to see the impact a great blocking TE can have on an offensive line just compare the offensive lines from 2002 and 2003.
RE: Excellent work as usual, Eric...  
SGMen : 7/10/2017 11:49 am : link
In comment 13524270 Big Blue Blogger said:
Quote:
...not just on the profiles of individual TEs, but also on the importance of upgrading this position.

It wouldn't be a surprise to see Tye and/or Adams occupy a veteran slot on the practice squad, since they both seem to need refinement (putting it politely). If one of them gets cut and clears waivers, that will be another piece of the ultimate verdict on last year's TE corps. I think Adams makes the team, but his scholarship is probably up.
TE Jerell Adams improved as the season went in 2016. Write ups on him seem to say he worked hard on his game this off-season. There is no way, in my mind, he doesn't make this team and show well in the greenzone, two TE sets, etc. He has a big frame and just needs to learn how to use it to excel.
Excellent  
AcidTest : 7/10/2017 1:02 pm : link
work Eric.
3 TE's  
PaulN : 7/10/2017 2:09 pm : link
Adam's, Engram, and Ellison. I don't see the urgency to keep 4, for what, I want to give more offensive linemen a shot, if everyone stays healthy we have a blocking tight end, a receiving tight end, and a two way tight end, let's keep a fullback, and keep an extra offensive lineman this season. Plus we have plenty of wideouts with great talent and we need to keep 3 QB's this season.
Adams  
PaulN : 7/10/2017 2:13 pm : link
Showed a lot of progress in my opinion as an all around two way tight end, and I think he ill develop into a good blocker, him and Ellison, plus a fullback will be plenty, leaving fullback blank will be a mistake, I don't care if Ellison is an H-Back type, great, do that also, but keep a traditional fullback, it adds blocking and flexibility to the offense.
RE: Adams  
SGMen : 7/10/2017 3:15 pm : link
In comment 13524484 PaulN said:
Quote:
Showed a lot of progress in my opinion as an all around two way tight end, and I think he ill develop into a good blocker, him and Ellison, plus a fullback will be plenty, leaving fullback blank will be a mistake, I don't care if Ellison is an H-Back type, great, do that also, but keep a traditional fullback, it adds blocking and flexibility to the offense.
I'm looking forward to hearing Eric's assessment as to why we won't keep a FB on the 53 man roster. My guess is that MaCadoo's offense doesn't require one given the way we'll use our TE's?

I would not be totally surprised if we kept just 3 TE's and 3 RB's, worst case scenario, if in fact an OL, DB or WR really steps up or something. Lots of scenarios to work through plus of course injuries. Our PS will have some serious potential talent this year, just hope some possibles aren't plucked on us.
What killed me last season was,  
Doomster : 7/10/2017 5:22 pm : link
not that the TE's did not block well, but that they did not even attempt to chip block on passing situations to help the Tackles.....How many times on third down did a DE just blow by Flowers, ending a drive, where a simple chip block by a TE could have prevented this? Was it because they couldn't even do that? Was it Gilbride? Was it McAdoo?

A simple freakin' chip block to give the DE something to think about!
Hope you're wrong  
David B. : 7/10/2017 5:42 pm : link
about the FB, Eric.
RE: Hope you're wrong  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 7/10/2017 5:49 pm : link
In comment 13524676 David B. said:
Quote:
about the FB, Eric.


The Giants are what they are. They are not a physical, run-first team and won't be as currently construed.

If we keep a fullback, how many offensive snaps will he get in a game? Six, seven? Ten tops (and that's pushing it).

Plus, you put a FB on the field, and that means you are taking off our 1st round draft pick or our new $18M tight end, plus Shepard. If you're an opposing defensive coordinator, you want the Giants to play Shane Smith over Evan Engram (or Ellison or Shepard).

McAdoo already said it (see his quote in my RB preview). He is not adverse at all to keeping a FB, but that FB had better kick ass on special teams. And for those pointing to Kuhn in Green Bay, Shane Smith is not Kuhn. Smith barely touched the football in college.

It comes down to who will have a greater impact on the team - the FB or 4th TE. My money is on the 4th TE right now.
Now  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 7/10/2017 5:51 pm : link
if Kuhn or Huesman were the second coming of Charles Way or Maurice Carthon, then maybe... but I doubt it.
RE: What killed me last season was,  
SGMen : 7/10/2017 5:52 pm : link
In comment 13524666 Doomster said:
Quote:
not that the TE's did not block well, but that they did not even attempt to chip block on passing situations to help the Tackles.....How many times on third down did a DE just blow by Flowers, ending a drive, where a simple chip block by a TE could have prevented this? Was it because they couldn't even do that? Was it Gilbride? Was it McAdoo?

A simple freakin' chip block to give the DE something to think about!
Doomster, I recall a game (not which one) where the commentators pointed out how Larry Donnell was just caught flat footed: no chip, no block, just stuck where he was with zero effort it appeared. Like he didn't expect the snap. It was pointed out all year I think how poor Flowers, Hart, Donnell and Tye were blocking.

I said all off-season had UFA FB/TE W. Johnson not gotten that season ending stinger but played up to his ablities along with RB Vereen, we'd have gone 12-4 and had more variety in formations allowing for better production. Not saying we'd have been more than 2-3 spots higher in the passing, running department but that may have been enough to win some of the close contests we lost. Who knows.

But as I always note, you can say the same of other teams who were hit with injuries as well. It is part of the game, brutal part of the game.
FB only needed for short yardage  
mack809f : 7/10/2017 7:16 pm : link
Where we were bad last year. Stick one on the practice squad, and if we suck again at goal line, bring him back. As coach said, he needs to kick ass on special teams, bring him back. Altough if the coaches decide we only have 3 rb worth keeping, I could see us keeping a FB active until we find another RB we like.
RE: FB only needed for short yardage  
SGMen : 7/11/2017 5:58 am : link
In comment 13524733 mack809f said:
Quote:
Where we were bad last year. Stick one on the practice squad, and if we suck again at goal line, bring him back. As coach said, he needs to kick ass on special teams, bring him back. Altough if the coaches decide we only have 3 rb worth keeping, I could see us keeping a FB active until we find another RB we like.
Smith can play specials according to the reports. I think if he lead blocks well; shows he can handle the short pass with good hands; and, can play specials like a demon over LaCosse & Tye, he could make the 53 man and only 3 TE's stick. All depends upon how solid of a lead blocker, receiver and special teamer the 4th TE or one FB is?
...  
Dodge : 7/11/2017 7:41 am : link
Are these Podcasts published yet?
why keep 4 unless one is a ST demon?  
Victor in CT : 7/11/2017 9:15 am : link
I think Ellison can be the FB as Pascoe was years ago if needed.

I'm excited about Engram. I think he's going to be a stud, and a much better blocker than people think.
RE: why keep 4 unless one is a ST demon?  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 7/11/2017 10:34 am : link
In comment 13525097 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
I think Ellison can be the FB as Pascoe was years ago if needed.

I'm excited about Engram. I think he's going to be a stud, and a much better blocker than people think.


I think it is a combination of scheme/depth and talent.

If a 2-TE package becomes central to your offense, then carrying that 4th TE from a depth standpoint becomes much more important (imagine if 1 or 2 guys gets hurt). Secondly, right now, LaCosse is making much more noise than any fullback on the roster. Tye has a late push making noise too, but LaCosse has been more consistent. I still think the better player will earn the spot. It's probably LaCosse vs. Tye vs. Smith.
RE: ...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 7/11/2017 10:35 am : link
In comment 13525071 Dodge said:
Quote:
Are these Podcasts published yet?


Not yet. We taped one but the sound still was not good. Gidiefor is in the process of acquiring new recording software.
RE: RE: why keep 4 unless one is a ST demon?  
Dunedin81 : 7/11/2017 11:04 am : link
In comment 13525197 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 13525097 Victor in CT said:


Quote:


I think Ellison can be the FB as Pascoe was years ago if needed.

I'm excited about Engram. I think he's going to be a stud, and a much better blocker than people think.



I think it is a combination of scheme/depth and talent.

If a 2-TE package becomes central to your offense, then carrying that 4th TE from a depth standpoint becomes much more important (imagine if 1 or 2 guys gets hurt). Secondly, right now, LaCosse is making much more noise than any fullback on the roster. Tye has a late push making noise too, but LaCosse has been more consistent. I still think the better player will earn the spot. It's probably LaCosse vs. Tye vs. Smith.


Am I the only one who thinks TE has to have the highest attrition rate on the field? Other than Tony Gonzalez, who has had the sort of longevity while playing a traditional TE position?
TE Write-up seems on point...  
Jimmy Googs : 7/11/2017 11:47 am : link
Clearly it could be someone else versus LaCosse for that 4th spot. But I think most fans on site are looking for more than what Tye can offer at this point.

I don't think anyone knows for sure if LaCosse would be indeed be more valuable but doesn't seem to be all that risky of a chance to take either since this position has been upgraded and Tye is known-commodity with an obviously low ceiling.
LaCosse is also practice-squad eligible.  
Big Blue Blogger : 7/11/2017 11:58 am : link
I have no idea whether he would clear waivers again. But if the Giants only have room for three TEs on the roster, they will likely carry at least one - and possibly two - on the PS for insurance and development.
As blueblood said when assessing Engram's ability to block inline...  
Klaatu : 7/11/2017 12:18 pm : link
Just because someone wasn't asked to do something in college doesn't mean he can't do it if called upon as a pro, but, honestly, that's when beside the point when talking about a FB.

No one expects a FB to get more than a handful of carries (or passes thrown to them). Hedgecock and Hynoski certainly didn't, and for all that he set records at Shippensburg, neither has John Kuhn. That's not their role. Their role is to be an effective lead-blocker and pass-protector, and to excel on special teams. If by chance a handoff or a pass comes their way, the expectation is that they'd make the most of it.
By the way, expanding on the point about the practice squad...  
Big Blue Blogger : 7/11/2017 12:27 pm : link
...I could easily see the 53-man roster tilting slightly toward defense (26-24) while the practice squad tips toward offense (e.g. 7-3). There just seem to be more players like J.Adams and LaCosse on the offensive side of the ball: young guys with NFL talent who either aren't ready for prime time or who simply wouldn't get many snaps because of the players ahead of them on the depth chart. Even if you limit the options to the Giants' own roster, there are a lot of names that fit this description. In addition to the tight ends, you have Wheeler and Dunker (and possibly Jarron Jones or Jon Halapio) on the offensive line, plus Travis Rudolph and a host of others at WR and some RB/FB possibilities.

By contrast, on the defensive front seven at least, the only exciting redshirt prospect is Avery Moss, and he is a lock for the roster. (I guess Jones could be counted here, if he winds up switching back to DT.) In the secondary, there's Jadar Johnson and maybe a few others who could stick; but nothing like the muddle on offense. So, even with three QBs on the roster, the practice squad might host much of the week-to-week depth for the offense.
RE: By the way, expanding on the point about the practice squad...  
SGMen : 7/11/2017 9:13 pm : link
In comment 13525356 Big Blue Blogger said:
Quote:
...I could easily see the 53-man roster tilting slightly toward defense (26-24) while the practice squad tips toward offense (e.g. 7-3). There just seem to be more players like J.Adams and LaCosse on the offensive side of the ball: young guys with NFL talent who either aren't ready for prime time or who simply wouldn't get many snaps because of the players ahead of them on the depth chart. Even if you limit the options to the Giants' own roster, there are a lot of names that fit this description. In addition to the tight ends, you have Wheeler and Dunker (and possibly Jarron Jones or Jon Halapio) on the offensive line, plus Travis Rudolph and a host of others at WR and some RB/FB possibilities.

By contrast, on the defensive front seven at least, the only exciting redshirt prospect is Avery Moss, and he is a lock for the roster. (I guess Jones could be counted here, if he winds up switching back to DT.) In the secondary, there's Jadar Johnson and maybe a few others who could stick; but nothing like the muddle on offense. So, even with three QBs on the roster, the practice squad might host much of the week-to-week depth for the offense.
The Practice Squad will be interesting as we appear to have some good depth to develop: OL Wheeler & Desmer; WR Snead & Rudolph and maybe Powe; TE Colin Thompson; LB C. Munson; DL Josh Banks and Evan Schwan; RB Abdullah; FB Smith and Huesman; S Jadar Johnson. Lots of possibilities.
Keep an eye on Will Johnson  
BigBlueWhale : 7/11/2017 10:30 pm : link
still being in the picture too.
RE: Keep an eye on Will Johnson  
Big Blue Blogger : 7/12/2017 3:08 am : link
BigBlueWhale said:
Quote:
still being in the picture too.
If Ellison isn't full-go for the start of camp, a healthy Will Johnson could be a good backup option. He still has to pass a physical. Although he has been saying for months that his shoulder is fine and the nerve damage wasn't serious, that's a tough injury for a guy whose role involves a ton of blocking.

It's hard to imagine any team carrying both Ellison and Johnson. When healthy, they are very close to being the same player - and not a player you use two roster spots on. In ten years of NFL experience, they have combined for about 90 touches.
RE: RE: Keep an eye on Will Johnson  
SGMen : 7/12/2017 7:03 am : link
In comment 13525954 Big Blue Blogger said:
Quote:
BigBlueWhale said:

Quote:


still being in the picture too.

If Ellison isn't full-go for the start of camp, a healthy Will Johnson could be a good backup option. He still has to pass a physical. Although he has been saying for months that his shoulder is fine and the nerve damage wasn't serious, that's a tough injury for a guy whose role involves a ton of blocking.

It's hard to imagine any team carrying both Ellison and Johnson. When healthy, they are very close to being the same player - and not a player you use two roster spots on. In ten years of NFL experience, they have combined for about 90 touches.
Very interesting about FB/TE Will Johnson. I didn't know he had healed enough to claim he can play. The Giants cut him for a reason and signed the "more expensive" Ellison. If Will Johnson was 100%, an incentive laiden deal for him as a FB (3 TE's) and 4th TE might be a good idea? He knows the playbook, the team.

Crazier things have happened...we shall see.
When Johnson was released  
BigBlueWhale : 7/12/2017 9:13 am : link
he was told the team may bring him back. The Giants do not say that if they don't mean it. This was after they signed Ellison. WJ also made comments that they signed Rhett to play his position so the writing was on the wall.

That may be the case, but I do not see them as identical or redundant players. Rhett at 6'5" 275 is a pure TE who can play FB. WJ is 6'2" and a pure FB - which he started for the Steelers for 4 years. He is also capable of taking some short yardage carries like most WCO's ask of their FB's.

If McAdoo wants to use a FB this year and Johnson is ready, I'd much prefer him to Smith or Huesman. And if McAdoo doesn't want a FB this year I will be angry with him, just as I was last year.
RE: When Johnson was released  
SGMen : 7/12/2017 5:52 pm : link
In comment 13526037 BigBlueWhale said:
Quote:
he was told the team may bring him back. The Giants do not say that if they don't mean it. This was after they signed Ellison. WJ also made comments that they signed Rhett to play his position so the writing was on the wall.

That may be the case, but I do not see them as identical or redundant players. Rhett at 6'5" 275 is a pure TE who can play FB. WJ is 6'2" and a pure FB - which he started for the Steelers for 4 years. He is also capable of taking some short yardage carries like most WCO's ask of their FB's.

If McAdoo wants to use a FB this year and Johnson is ready, I'd much prefer him to Smith or Huesman. And if McAdoo doesn't want a FB this year I will be angry with him, just as I was last year.
Interesting. I mean, if pure FB Will Johnson is 100% healthy and is primed to go how can we not add him to the 90 man roster? He is also a superb special teams player. Oh, and since he was with us last year he knows the playbook.

TE: Rhett Ellison, Evan Engram, Jerrel Adams
FB: Will Johnson (short yardage too...240 pound guy)
RB: Paul Perkins, Shane Vereen, O. Darkwa, W. Gallman

That is an impressive blocking group with TE M. LaCosse, FB Smith on the PS learning and ready to step up should a starter go down for any period of time.

Just interesting, the possibilities, should W. Johnson truly be a piece of the puzzle?
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