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Eli v.s Brees

nicks14 : 7/11/2017 11:41 am
Before i start of course Brees puts up better numbers than Eli but since his first championship in 2009 what has he really done better than Eli other than meaningless stats? People slob all over Brees and call him a top 5 quarterback even though since 2011 is teams have underachieved or flat out stunk. Since the 2011 season they both made the playoffs once but no one holds that against Brees. I try not to be an Eli homer but the disrespect is starting to get out of hand.
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The stats are there..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 7/12/2017 8:19 am : link
to show that outdoors the two QB's have very similar stats, with Eli being better in a couple.

But here's the huge difference, Eli has played only 16 games indoors compared to Brees playing almost 110! And the other thing that is interesting - if you extrapolate eli's indoor stats to over 100 games, what do you know - he's again very close or better than Brees.

But no, weather can't possibly make a difference......
were you guys fighting over this shit all night? :-)  
Victor in CT : 7/12/2017 8:36 am : link
......
I'll repeat, with thanks to Uncle Junior's: Brees is a hot house flower. The next game he wins after getting the shit kicked out of him all day like Eli did againt the Niners in the2011 NFC Title game will be the first.
Brees  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 7/12/2017 9:08 am : link
plays in a dome, which no doubt inflates his stats. I'd love to see Eli play, at a minimum, 8 games a year in a dome. His #s would be pretty damn gaudy too.
my take on comparing QBs, more often than not,  
djm : 7/12/2017 9:30 am : link
is to keep it simple. If the guy is out there making things happen and lighting up scoreboards, he's a good to great QB. If he wins, he's a winning QB. I don't hyper analyze like I used to. Brady is awesome. Peyton was awesome. Montana was awesome. Bradshaw, Stauback, Elway...all awesome all timers. You can say that the system helped some of them. You can say that some of them were drafted by just the right team at just the right time but in the end, they delivered. Even the guys like Marino who never won the big game. Watching them week in and week out you couldn't miss their talent. Marino was insanely good. But maybe he was too good for Miami where as he sort of prevented them from bottoming out and building from the ground up.

QB debates get a lot tougher when you compare guys like Eli and Brees and the rest. It's all but impossible to say who is truly better. Brees has some of the numbers but Eli has the two rings. Everyone says Brees but in reality it's not that simple. Brees plays in a dome and has probably had the more static offensive system than Eli has played in.

If you swapped Brees for Eli would the Saints really be worse off in the long run? Would the Giants be better off? Would the Giants have two more super bowl titles after 1990? I can't say for sure they would. They'd possibly have the more "prolific" QB but would Brees have delived the two titles in NY? I don't think so. MAybe one yes...but two? You're gonna guarantee that? You can't.

If you go by stats, fine, knock yourself out, but it's not that simple.
little things start to add up  
djm : 7/12/2017 9:36 am : link
Brees wasn't as effective on the road. Without looking i'd venture that the splits aren't that stark but they exist. Brees wasn't a slob on the road by any stretch but which QB is more likely to walk into hostile territory in January and win a playoff game against a great team? Not a trick question, we all know the answer. There's enough evidence to support this claim now. TO me that counts for something when debating QBs like Brees and Eli.

Or you could say BRees is clearly better based on his higher TD totals and higher completion %. It's not THAT much higher where we have to turn a blind eye to some of the differences in intangibles. Plus, Brees has started more games.

I'd be happy with either guy but I know Eli won two titles here. Bird in the hand...i'll keep it.
One ring vs two rings  
Metnut : 7/12/2017 9:37 am : link
isn't really the best argument for Eli being better than Brees. The idea comparing the play of the two QBs, not the success of the Giants vs. Saints which dozens of other players and coaches have an impact on.

I'm not sure Brees ever played with the type of defense that the Giants had in the playoffs in 07 and 11. There's certainly some arguments in favor of Eli (mainly that Brees' numbers are inflated with 8 games in a dome each year versus Eli playing outside in sometimes cold weather) but the extra ring doesn't really swing much for me here.
Brees has started 33 more games than Eli  
djm : 7/12/2017 9:43 am : link
and has 145 more TDs than Eli. If you give Eli about 30 more TDs to adjust for the extra games, Brees has Eli beat by about 80 TDs. Brees is certainly proflific but I think the Dome thing has to be applied here, within reason of course.

Don't tell me Eli doesn't have better career stats if he plays in 100 more dome games. I can't take that take seriously. Just about any QB would put up better stats if they played more dome games.
djm..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 7/12/2017 9:47 am : link
Granted, Eli has only played in 16 dome games, but his TD averages and yardage averages in those 16 games are very close to Brees' totals in the dome.

Meanwhile, Brees' stats outside are very similar to Eli's.

That's why I don't buy the argument that stats tell the whole story and that saying Eli is as good as brees is laughable as a couple people have pointed out, not surprisingly one of them being KWALL.....
and ill keep reminding everyone  
djm : 7/12/2017 9:51 am : link
Eli isn't done yet. Neither is Brees for that matter but the arrow for Eli's postseason resume is pointing upward.

People are writing Eli off based on alleged struggles in 2016. I aint buyint it. I think Eli has a great 4th quarter of his career lined up. His team is nasty. Brees has hot garbage other than good WRs and RBs. His team won't win jack shit with that defense.

Eli is not done. He's going to have a big year.
RE: .  
djm : 7/12/2017 9:56 am : link
In comment 13525340 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
I love Eli as much as any person on this board. But we have to go full-stop when people start saying he's as good as Rodgers.


Rodgers is the best pure QB alive. It's not even close.

You typically can't put QBs in a vacuum when judging their game but in the case of Rodgers, you can. He's a transcendent QB talent the likes of which we really haven't seen. He'd play well in a parking lot. He's elevate any franchise. He's Marino with better mobility and on the run ability and he's got a ring. He's a ridiculous QB. No one is in his class.
The comps..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 7/12/2017 10:00 am : link
to Rodgers and Brady will serve nothing but to detract from this thread.

Eli is not the best QB in the NFL. But people who try to say that Ben R, Brees, Rivers or anyone else around is head and shoulders above him, I just can't take that argument seriously either.
RE: Brees has started 33 more games than Eli  
djm : 7/12/2017 10:08 am : link
In comment 13526071 djm said:
Quote:
and has 145 more TDs than Eli. If you give Eli about 30 more TDs to adjust for the extra games, Brees has Eli beat by about 80 TDs. Brees is certainly proflific but I think the Dome thing has to be applied here, within reason of course.

Don't tell me Eli doesn't have better career stats if he plays in 100 more dome games. I can't take that take seriously. Just about any QB would put up better stats if they played more dome games.


I meant to say if you give Eli 60 more TDs.
RE: djm..  
djm : 7/12/2017 10:11 am : link
In comment 13526075 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
Granted, Eli has only played in 16 dome games, but his TD averages and yardage averages in those 16 games are very close to Brees' totals in the dome.

Meanwhile, Brees' stats outside are very similar to Eli's.

That's why I don't buy the argument that stats tell the whole story and that saying Eli is as good as brees is laughable as a couple people have pointed out, not surprisingly one of them being KWALL.....


Yup fair enough. I knew the splits would show a difference just wasn't sure how much.

Like I said, if you're gonna sit here and tell me that the Giants franchise would be better off with Brees at the helm since 2005 over Eli I will say you're fucking nuts. There's evidence to support the claim that the Giants would NOT be better off with Brees, and it's possible they'd be worse off, if only by a little bit.

Brees is a great QB. So is Eli. We know Eli won in NY and won twice. We also know that Brees is not the same QB outside and doesn't raise his game on the road in the playoffs like Eli has. These are facts. Stats are not the end all be all.
If we could catch the 1st qtr in playoffs vs Packers loss  
NYG007 : 7/12/2017 11:10 am : link
Eli out plays Rodgers (AGAIN!!!) in the playoffs. Eli's first 20-24 passes were easily catch-able. Including 4 TD's dropped, 2 critical 3rd down drive extending drops.

That was the worst quarter of fundamental football I have seen in my 40 yrs as a Giants fan, and it came at the most important time. I for one still will not forgive OBJ until he proves it in January.

Go back and study the tape. That first quarter, playoff Eli showed up trying to put the team on his back. The pass catchers let him down, massively.
He did a great job holding Green Bay's offense as well!  
Gmen1982 : 7/12/2017 11:35 am : link
.
RE: He did a great job holding Green Bay's offense as well!  
NYG007 : 7/12/2017 11:51 am : link
In comment 13526243 Gmen1982 said:
Quote:
.


Gotta love BBI
Brees and Eli are both great QBs...  
M.S. : 7/12/2017 11:52 am : link

...and both should be in the Hall of Fame one day.

And Brees is a greater "great" than Eli.

Is there really any question about this?
RE: RE: He did a great job holding Green Bay's offense as well!  
Gmen1982 : 7/12/2017 12:51 pm : link
In comment 13526265 NYG007 said:
Quote:
In comment 13526243 Gmen1982 said:


Quote:


.



Gotta love BBI


Yea, where people credit one player for a game that has three phases and 11 players in each.
RE: RE: RE: He did a great job holding Green Bay's offense as well!  
David in LA : 7/12/2017 1:35 pm : link
In comment 13526324 Gmen1982 said:
Quote:
In comment 13526265 NYG007 said:


Quote:


In comment 13526243 Gmen1982 said:


Quote:


.



Gotta love BBI



Yea, where people credit one player for a game that has three phases and 11 players in each.


One constant about this place is the need for some fans to minimize the contributions of the rest of the team, and other QB's to prop up Eli. I love me some Eli, but some of the posters here are WAY too insecure, and take slight criticism as something to be offended by. I think both Brees and Eli are HOFers, but I think Brees has a better shot at making it on the first ballot than Eli.
RE: Brees has started 33 more games than Eli  
SHO'NUFF : 7/12/2017 2:18 pm : link
In comment 13526071 djm said:
Quote:
and has 145 more TDs than Eli. If you give Eli about 30 more TDs to adjust for the extra games, Brees has Eli beat by about 80 TDs. Brees is certainly proflific but I think the Dome thing has to be applied here, within reason of course.

Don't tell me Eli doesn't have better career stats if he plays in 100 more dome games. I can't take that take seriously. Just about any QB would put up better stats if they played more dome games.


What did Eli have, like 6 TDs in their dome a couple of years ago? Don't forget, Payton likes to run up the score and Brees loves to cherry-pick those little 1-yard TDs at the goalline. The TC era Giants get a decent lead and start to get run happy and go into clock kill mode.
RE: RE: RE: RE: He did a great job holding Green Bay's offense as well!  
SHO'NUFF : 7/12/2017 2:23 pm : link
In comment 13526407 David in LA said:
Quote:
In comment 13526324 Gmen1982 said:


Quote:


In comment 13526265 NYG007 said:


Quote:


In comment 13526243 Gmen1982 said:


Quote:


.



Gotta love BBI



Yea, where people credit one player for a game that has three phases and 11 players in each.



One constant about this place is the need for some fans to minimize the contributions of the rest of the team, and other QB's to prop up Eli. I love me some Eli, but some of the posters here are WAY too insecure, and take slight criticism as something to be offended by. I think both Brees and Eli are HOFers, but I think Brees has a better shot at making it on the first ballot than Eli.


People aren't hating. It's the perception that Eli isn't in Brees's league by the media and other fans. Ultimately, this perception will cost Eli at least a first ballot HoF selection.

I love me some Brees. Won me a lot of fantasy games.
FMIC  
KWALL2 : 7/12/2017 2:24 pm : link
This is complete BS:

Quote:
But here's the huge difference, Eli has played only 16 games indoors compared to Brees playing almost 110! And the other thing that is interesting - if you extrapolate eli's indoor stats to over 100 games, what do you know - he's again very close or better than Brees.


First of all, he wouldn't be playing the dome defenses in every game would he? It would be great if NYG got to play the STL, DET, NO, and IND defense every week. MIN? not so much and he really struggled in the 4 games vs MIN.


He played 18 dome games. Not 16. The median game? Not so impressive.

His best and worst dome games were in 2015. Vs the 32nd ranked defense in NO, he threw 6 TDs-0Int. A few weeks later vs MIN he was 15-29 with 1-3.

Take away the best and worst game and we have 16 games for an average season. That average isn't close to Brees. In fact, that 16 game average in the dome games, would be a below average season for Eli.
.....  
BrettNYG10 : 7/12/2017 2:30 pm : link
Comparing outdoor games between both Brees and Eli is a bit unfair given that most QB's tend to have better numbers at home.
Brett  
KWALL2 : 7/12/2017 2:36 pm : link
That is certainly a big factor.

Just like the quality of the opposing defense which I think would be a bigger factor, wouldn't you?
RE: Brett  
BrettNYG10 : 7/12/2017 2:39 pm : link
In comment 13526483 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
That is certainly a big factor.

Just like the quality of the opposing defense which I think would be a bigger factor, wouldn't you?


I agree. I don't think the sample of outdoor games for Eli is big enough to draw a strong conclusion, in part because of the quality of defense issue. When you have a 100 game sample, those things matter less.
....  
BrettNYG10 : 7/12/2017 2:43 pm : link
And to clarify, my personal opinion is Brees is a bit below the Brady/Rodgers/Peyton top tier, but above the Eli/Ben/Rivers one.

I wouldn't go back in time and swap Eli for Brees given the two SB's, but I think Brees has been a better QB than Eli.
In 2015  
KWALL2 : 7/12/2017 2:45 pm : link
the entire league played like Rodgers when they played the Saints.

4600 yards, 45Tds, 9Int


Eli Manning 18 Career Dome Games  
KWALL2 : 7/12/2017 2:45 pm : link
I removed the best (2015 NO 6 TDs) and worst (2015 Min 3INTs).

His season:
61.4% completion. 20 TDs. 16 Ints.

Durability  
Go Terps : 7/12/2017 2:58 pm : link
We all know about Eli's durability, but it's pretty incredible that Brees has missed only 1 game in 11 years since a career-threatening injury to his throwing shoulder. He's had an incredible career.

I'd be inclined to say Brees is a better quarterback than Eli; that's no insult to Eli...Brees is better than almost everybody. Technically he's damn near perfect.

But I don't see the need to rank guys linearly. There are things Brees does better than Eli (mechanics, accuracy), but there are things I think Eli does better than Brees, too...I think he's better at reading the defense pre-snap, and I think he's better under pressure.

I think it's been proven that you can do just fine with either guy.
RE: Durability  
djm : 7/12/2017 3:05 pm : link
In comment 13526521 Go Terps said:
Quote:
We all know about Eli's durability, but it's pretty incredible that Brees has missed only 1 game in 11 years since a career-threatening injury to his throwing shoulder. He's had an incredible career.

I'd be inclined to say Brees is a better quarterback than Eli; that's no insult to Eli...Brees is better than almost everybody. Technically he's damn near perfect.

But I don't see the need to rank guys linearly. There are things Brees does better than Eli (mechanics, accuracy), but there are things I think Eli does better than Brees, too...I think he's better at reading the defense pre-snap, and I think he's better under pressure.

I think it's been proven that you can do just fine with either guy.


This really is the best take on both QBs. I agree with the whole linear thing, especially in regards to QBs.

If you want to go on stats and even at times, the eye test, Brees has had the more prolific career. To me it goes beyond that stuff when analyzing both QBs. They are very close, stats be damned.
Yardage?  
KWALL2 : 7/12/2017 3:57 pm : link
In the 16 dome games, 3465 yards passing. Or 216 yards/game.

In 18 dome games, its 224/game. This is below his career average on the road.

Not including rookie year. (no dome games in rookie year).

11 seasons:
Eli averaged 247 yards/game in outdoor road games.

His 16 game average on the road:
3950 yards. 25Tds 17Ints

That's better than his play in the 18 dome games. More yards/game. Better TD%, YPA, and INT%. Completion % is higher in the dome.

Numbers in 18 Dome: 61.7% 4.4% TD 3.2% INT 6.87 YPA
Road numbers (minus all dome games): 59% 4.7%TD 3.0 INT% 7.1YPA
Here is a good article on QBs in cold weather  
KWALL2 : 7/12/2017 4:50 pm : link
When the temp drops below 40 the average QB sees a QB ratings drop of about 8 points. Eli has a very good winning % in cold weather but it hurts his stats. According to this article, he saw a drop of 7 points in his QB rating in cold games.

Some of the best, such as Rodgers, Brady and Ben do not see any drop.

Nothing was posted on Brees in the article. He's only had a 9 games under 40 but his numbers are very good in these games. 18-7 TD to INT and 100+ rating.

Brees has been good in windy games. He has a 98 QB rating 5 games with 15+ MPH.

You can't knock Brees about cold weather. Combine the cold and windy games you have 15 games, a 100+ QB rating and they are all road games.

He played at Purdue. He has enormous hands. He's proven to be a QB where the weather doesn't really impact his play.
QBs play in cold - ( New Window )
Brees has more prolific stats  
SHO'NUFF : 7/13/2017 12:22 am : link
because of the philosophy of Payton and superior offensive system.

A coach and his system can make our break a player's career.

TC would have made Jimmy Graham either block, or sit the bench.

make OR  
SHO'NUFF : 7/13/2017 12:23 am : link
break
if Eli had a good Burress  
spike : 7/13/2017 10:33 am : link
as WR for ten years , he would surpass Brees' numbers
Brees is 5-2 against Eli head to head  
Rudy5757 : 7/13/2017 10:57 am : link
That evens the playing field. Better stats for Brees and only 3 of the games in the dome. The 2 losses were in the dome.

Both are very good QBs, very similar W/L records. The difference between the Great QBs and the very good QBs is usually the records of the teams. The great QBs seem to find a way to get their teams to the playoffs every season, the very good ones are usually on the cusp of getting in so between 7-10 wins each season, some a little more some less. The bad ones rarely get to the playoffs.
It comes down to this  
LCtheINTMachine : 7/13/2017 12:52 pm : link
Brees saved the entire city of New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina.

What city did Eli save after Hurricane Sandy? Hoboken.

Case closed.
RE: Brees  
allstarjim : 7/14/2017 2:15 am : link
In comment 13526032 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
plays in a dome, which no doubt inflates his stats. I'd love to see Eli play, at a minimum, 8 games a year in a dome. His #s would be pretty damn gaudy too.


It's actually at least 9 games a year in a dome because he plays Atlanta on the road every year.
Stats don't back it up  
KWALL2 : 7/14/2017 12:47 pm : link
Quote:
plays in a dome, which no doubt inflates his stats. I'd love to see Eli play, at a minimum, 8 games a year in a dome. His #s would be pretty damn gaudy too.


We haven't seen a jump in Eli's numbers in the dome. Dome numbers are not better than his road numbers in outdoor games.

All of you knocking Brees outside of the dome? You have it wrong. His numbers on the road are some of the best ever at the position.
RE: This isn't a serious question  
Mr. Bungle : 7/14/2017 2:27 pm : link
In comment 13525849 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
Eli isn't in his league.

Brees: 16 seasons, 3rd all-time in passing yards, 3rd all-time passing touchdowns.

Eli: 13 seasons, 8th all-time in passing yards, 7th all-time in passing touchdowns.

But "not in his league." LOL. Whatever.
Who was a better QB Phil Simms or Joe Montana?  
arniefez : 7/14/2017 2:54 pm : link
What do you think your answer would be if Bill Walsh drafted Phil Simms and Ray Perkins drafted Joe Montana? Coaches and systems matter in football. It isn't baseball where you can park adjust stats. You can name any peer of Eli's and if they played for Tom Coughlin they would have struggled to match Eli's numbers and success including Brady. I'll exclude Aaron Rogers though because he's the best QB I have ever seen.
Career ranking for Total yards & Total TDs  
KWALL2 : 7/14/2017 2:59 pm : link
Yeah that's the measurng stick to use. It places guys like Dave Krieg and Kerry Collins as some of the best ever.

Even doing that the gap between Manning and Bree's in these categories is enormous. 20,000 more yards. 150 more TDs. While throwing the same number of INTs. And playing much better than Eli outdoors and on the road.

Bree's is elite. Eli isn't. He's been very good at times. Never misses a game. But his best never reached Bree's level and he doesn't come close to the consistency Bree's has shown in 10+ years.

We have people trying to knock Bree's as only a dome guy but the numbers tell a different story. He's been excellent away from Domes, on the road, in cold weather and in windy conditions.
RE: Brees is better  
annexOPR : 7/14/2017 7:21 pm : link
In comment 13525315 PaulN said:
Quote:
But not by much, his stats are better, and he also needs a good team to win, no different then Eli. I agree with the disrespect that Eli gets, agree with your point, but don't agree if you believe that Eli is better, sorry but I can't agree with that. Eli is right there with Brees and Rodgers and Ben. He is not as good as his brother or Brady, but he is in the same class as the three I mentioned, not better then them though, you can make a better argument for those three being better, but the difference is not that much in my opinion.


Aaron Rodgers is better than Eli

and it is not close.
RE: Career ranking for Total yards & Total TDs  
Mr. Bungle : 7/14/2017 7:25 pm : link
In comment 13528396 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
Yeah that's the measurng stick to use. It places guys like Dave Krieg and Kerry Collins as some of the best ever.

Even doing that the gap between Manning and Bree's in these categories is enormous. 20,000 more yards. 150 more TDs. While throwing the same number of INTs. And playing much better than Eli outdoors and on the road.

Bree's is elite. Eli isn't. He's been very good at times. Never misses a game. But his best never reached Bree's level and he doesn't come close to the consistency Bree's has shown in 10+ years.

We have people trying to knock Bree's as only a dome guy but the numbers tell a different story. He's been excellent away from Domes, on the road, in cold weather and in windy conditions.

Saying Eli isn't in Brees' league is ridiculous. Brees is a better quarterback. Can't that be enough? Must hyperbole be a part of every discussion?
Drew Brees will go down as the most underappreciated quarterback  
eclipz928 : 7/14/2017 9:47 pm : link
in the history of the NFL by virtue of his playing career overlapping with Tom Brady and Peyton Manning. I love Eli, but he should not be in the same discussion as Brees.
The hyperbole here  
KWALL2 : 7/14/2017 9:54 pm : link
Is the comments that Elis on the same level. It's an opinion only a giant fan has. Nobody outside of the NYG football circle would say Eli is on the same level as Brees.

For over 10 years Bree's has been elite. And he did it iyear after year after year. Consistently a top 5 QB.

Eli hasn't. When was Eli top 5? Maybe once.

That separates the "leagues" between these players.

I can't get wrapped up in this debate..  
Sean : 7/14/2017 11:34 pm : link
I love Eli and think he is perfect for the Giants organization.
In the fantasy era,  
SHO'NUFF : 7/15/2017 1:34 am : link
stat hoarders like Brees and Rodgers will always be leagues better than Eli to the casual fan's eyes. Rodgers definitely passes the eye test, but there's just something about him that is deficient.

In the end, I think Eli is too unselfish.
KWALL  
hassan : 7/15/2017 3:00 pm : link
Has it right here. Total homer job on this thread for the most part. Brees is an elite player at qb most of his career. Eli has been in the top 7-12 qbs most of his seasons.

They're both hall of famers  
Ten Ton Hammer : 7/15/2017 3:07 pm : link
But I don't think I get people trying to undercut Drew Brees. Greatness is obvious when you actually watch him play, conduct an offense, and throw the ball.
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