Before i start of course Brees puts up better numbers than Eli but since his first championship in 2009 what has he really done better than Eli other than meaningless stats? People slob all over Brees and call him a top 5 quarterback even though since 2011 is teams have underachieved or flat out stunk. Since the 2011 season they both made the playoffs once but no one holds that against Brees. I try not to be an Eli homer but the disrespect is starting to get out of hand.
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In comment 13525452 UConn4523 said:
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I think NY definitely matters. Maybe not in basketball or baseball but for Football it makes a difference. Roethlisberger doesn't survive the rape scandal in NY, IMO. Brees would have been fine, but I can see it weighing on players much more heavily than it would playing with essentially zero media coverage in new orleans.
The question is how much of a difference? I don't think it's as great as some here would have you believe.
Of course and it isn't quantifiable so there's no way to prove anything.
And yet it's constantly used as a reason why Eli is better than *insert pro QB's name here*.
He's still an outstanding QB, and definitely will be in the HOF.
My point.....you know when you play the Saints, they are going to put the foot to the pedal and keep coming at you.
With that, the opposition goes in with that attitude...and attacks themselves on offense.
You never go to NO and think you're going to win 20-13......
All the stats that Brees rings up....could that actually be a detriment to his team, big picture?
Having such a bad defense effects the QB mentality and the QB is forced to always play aggressively and take risks hence he has high amounts of INTs compared to Rodgers and Brady but he is at the same level as them.. He has a higher playoff QB rating than Brady and Rodgers..
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And I know, Eli is 2 years younger, so he's clearly tossing 9,000 yards and 76 touchdowns in each of the next two seasons and evening up the scorecard.
Eli has played three season less than Brees, so while he won't match those numbers, he'll still be close and hasn't had the luxury of playing in a dome.
Like I said above - Brees' stats outside of the dome are completely different:
- Winning % - 13% lower
- Completion % - 5% lower
- QBR - 12 points lower
- In 6 more games outdoors, Brees has thrown for 5100 less yards
- 64 more TD's indoors in 6 fewer games
The differences are quite staggering.
Other than winning % which is a team stat. I am pretty sure all of the other numbers for Brees outside the dome are still better than Eli in general..
I can easily argue Eli is equal or better than Ben but Brees is on another tier or 2 above Eli.. You can still make the HoF with the numbers that Brees puts up on the road..
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In comment 13525476 T-Bone said:
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In comment 13525452 UConn4523 said:
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I think NY definitely matters. Maybe not in basketball or baseball but for Football it makes a difference. Roethlisberger doesn't survive the rape scandal in NY, IMO. Brees would have been fine, but I can see it weighing on players much more heavily than it would playing with essentially zero media coverage in new orleans.
The question is how much of a difference? I don't think it's as great as some here would have you believe.
Of course and it isn't quantifiable so there's no way to prove anything.
And yet it's constantly used as a reason why Eli is better than *insert pro QB's name here*.
I don't have a problem with it. You can insert Romo in there as well, he handled the onslaught of media attention as well as anyone over the course of his career and it never seemed to effect his play.
+1
Saying you'd take Eli over Brady, Rodgers, or any other QB is really an emotional opinion.
Brady is the correct answer to this question, and his comebacks against Seattle and Atlanta should really remove any doubt.
everyone is entitled to their opinions and I don't mean to make it seem like mine is better but if you pose this question on a national level "one game, championship on the line, team is static other than QB, you can pick any current QB" Eli isn't being picked by many ahead of Brady or Rodgers.
I don't care how many people + it after the post.
Just this morning on GMFB, the hosts were lamenting the fact that Phillip Rivers' game suffered last year because the Chargers led the league in injuries. I don't recall anyone mentioning the number of injuries the Giants had when the led they league for three years straight and missed the playoffs in those years. No, it was because Eli threw a lot of interceptions. Drives me nuts.
Then you have the folks who say that Eli's two Super Bowl MVPs are tainted because he played with great defenses. Well, first of all, what Super Bowl-winning QBs didn't play with great defenses? And it wasn't the defense that threw two TD passes in the 4th quarter to beat the Pats in 2007.
But people comparing Eli to Brady or Rodgers are just delusional.
Brees, Ben, Ryan, Wilson, better cases, but then you're splitting hairs.
the fans who compare him with Sam Bradford or Alex Smith are equally delusional but the opposite way.
Most fans of other teams will not take Eli over either of those players. And if you ask them who they would prefer to play AGAINST in a big game....they are choosing Eli.
As Giants fans we realized the intangibles that Eli brings to the table in a big game. It will be interesting to see what Eli brings to the table this upcoming year.
There are some here that feel Eli is not a lock. Brees will get in on Stats alone in a Dome no less.
Eli has comparable numbers and 2 Super Bowl wins over Brady in the 4th quarter, but will somehow struggle to get into the HOF.
Ones a Stat pusher and the other a proven winner.
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but there isn't a QB playing today (including Brady and Rodgers) that I would take over Eli with the championdhip on the line. None. Period.
Saying you'd take Eli over Brady, Rodgers, or any other QB is really an emotional opinion.
Brady is the correct answer to this question, and his comebacks against Seattle and Atlanta should really remove any doubt.
everyone is entitled to their opinions and I don't mean to make it seem like mine is better but if you pose this question on a national level "one game, championship on the line, team is static other than QB, you can pick any current QB" Eli isn't being picked by many ahead of Brady or Rodgers.
I don't care how many people + it after the post.
I don't care about the opinions of others. They are entitled. Mine is that I would take no one over Eli with a winner-take-all game on the line..It's not emotional on my part albeit certainly subjective to a degree. No more than subjective opinions on the guys you mention, both great and first ballot HOFers..In fact, I have never seen two playoff runs by ANY QB EVER anything close to what Eli helped to pull off. With the exception of Tampa Bay (2008) and POSSIBLY Atlanta (2012), the teams we played in THEIR house were, imo, much better than the Giants were..
Brady, Rodgers, NEVER had to overcome so many playoff teams en route to their SB that were CLEARLY superior to them. Better? Maybe. As superior as the away teams Eli faced? Not even close, imv..
I AM NOT making a case for Eli as better than those two as clearly he isn't, but that's not the point I'm making..
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but there isn't a QB playing today (including Brady and Rodgers) that I would take over Eli with the championdhip on the line. None. Period.
Most fans of other teams will not take Eli over either of those players. And if you ask them who they would prefer to play AGAINST in a big game....they are choosing Eli.
As Giants fans we realized the intangibles that Eli brings to the table in a big game. It will be interesting to see what Eli brings to the table this upcoming year.
Well, most fans were also left holding their dicks while watching Eli win two improbable Superbowls they gave him no chance in, during two improbable seasons, with two improbable game winning drives, each featuring two of the most improbable plays in Superbowl history on the arm of Manning.
Most fans dream about those things, and they will likely never happen for their sorry ass teams (Redskins/Eagles/Cowboys). Most fans are idiots.
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but there isn't a QB playing today (including Brady and Rodgers) that I would take over Eli with the championdhip on the line. None. Period.
Most fans of other teams will not take Eli over either of those players. And if you ask them who they would prefer to play AGAINST in a big game....they are choosing Eli.
As Giants fans we realized the intangibles that Eli brings to the table in a big game. It will be interesting to see what Eli brings to the table this upcoming year.
Per my post above this, I don't care what other teams' fans think about Eli..I have seen them all and Eli is MY PICK to QB a winner take all championship game..That is my pick for the best in a championship game..Others have theirs
He would be a lot of team's greatest player ever. Hell, he's in the discussion for greatest Giant ever, and that's one of the most, if not THE most storied team in the NFL.
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In comment 13525528 Big Blue '56 said:
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but there isn't a QB playing today (including Brady and Rodgers) that I would take over Eli with the championdhip on the line. None. Period.
Saying you'd take Eli over Brady, Rodgers, or any other QB is really an emotional opinion.
Brady is the correct answer to this question, and his comebacks against Seattle and Atlanta should really remove any doubt.
everyone is entitled to their opinions and I don't mean to make it seem like mine is better but if you pose this question on a national level "one game, championship on the line, team is static other than QB, you can pick any current QB" Eli isn't being picked by many ahead of Brady or Rodgers.
I don't care how many people + it after the post.
I don't care about the opinions of others. They are entitled. Mine is that I would take no one over Eli with a winner-take-all game on the line..It's not emotional on my part albeit certainly subjective to a degree. No more than subjective opinions on the guys you mention, both great and first ballot HOFers..In fact, I have never seen two playoff runs by ANY QB EVER anything close to what Eli helped to pull off. With the exception of Tampa Bay (2008) and POSSIBLY Atlanta (2012), the teams we played in THEIR house were, imo, much better than the Giants were..
Brady, Rodgers, NEVER had to overcome so many playoff teams en route to their SB that were CLEARLY superior to them. Better? Maybe. As superior as the away teams Eli faced? Not even close, imv..
I AM NOT making a case for Eli as better than those two as clearly he isn't, but that's not the point I'm making..
I get it and I respect your opinion, though I disagree with it.
I like Eli, so I'm not an Eli-hating Giants fan, but I also have to consider the fact that while the Giants won the 2 SB's Eli has made it to, his team has only made it to the playoffs in 6 of his 13 seasons.
His team has only won playoff games in two of those six seasons with a playoff appearance. Why can't Eli win those big games? he only becomes invincible against all odds Eli in the Super Bowl?
I don't see how you can be so confident that if somehow his team gets to the big game, that just because he's Eli Manning he's better prepared to win it than other QB's.
You're allowed to believe it, I just find it convenient and omits a lot of losses where he didn't magically lead his team to a W.
Rodgers is absolutely a disappointment in terms of playoffs success, but I'd still take him in a one-game winner take all vs Eli. And I don't think that's anti-Eli or anti-Giants to feel that way and Brady for me is a no-brainer.
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In comment 13525558 pjcas18 said:
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In comment 13525528 Big Blue '56 said:
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but there isn't a QB playing today (including Brady and Rodgers) that I would take over Eli with the championdhip on the line. None. Period.
Saying you'd take Eli over Brady, Rodgers, or any other QB is really an emotional opinion.
Brady is the correct answer to this question, and his comebacks against Seattle and Atlanta should really remove any doubt.
everyone is entitled to their opinions and I don't mean to make it seem like mine is better but if you pose this question on a national level "one game, championship on the line, team is static other than QB, you can pick any current QB" Eli isn't being picked by many ahead of Brady or Rodgers.
I don't care how many people + it after the post.
I don't care about the opinions of others. They are entitled. Mine is that I would take no one over Eli with a winner-take-all game on the line..It's not emotional on my part albeit certainly subjective to a degree. No more than subjective opinions on the guys you mention, both great and first ballot HOFers..In fact, I have never seen two playoff runs by ANY QB EVER anything close to what Eli helped to pull off. With the exception of Tampa Bay (2008) and POSSIBLY Atlanta (2012), the teams we played in THEIR house were, imo, much better than the Giants were..
Brady, Rodgers, NEVER had to overcome so many playoff teams en route to their SB that were CLEARLY superior to them. Better? Maybe. As superior as the away teams Eli faced? Not even close, imv..
I AM NOT making a case for Eli as better than those two as clearly he isn't, but that's not the point I'm making..
I get it and I respect your opinion, though I disagree with it.
I like Eli, so I'm not an Eli-hating Giants fan, but I also have to consider the fact that while the Giants won the 2 SB's Eli has made it to, his team has only made it to the playoffs in 6 of his 13 seasons.
His team has only won playoff games in two of those six seasons with a playoff appearance. Why can't Eli win those big games? he only becomes invincible against all odds Eli in the Super Bowl?
I don't see how you can be so confident that if somehow his team gets to the big game, that just because he's Eli Manning he's better prepared to win it than other QB's.
You're allowed to believe it, I just find it convenient and omits a lot of losses where he didn't magically lead his team to a W.
Rodgers is absolutely a disappointment in terms of playoffs success, but I'd still take him in a one-game winner take all vs Eli. And I don't think that's anti-Eli or anti-Giants to feel that way and Brady for me is a no-brainer.
I respect your opinion as well..Always have
I can easily argue Eli is equal or better than Ben but Brees is on another tier or 2 above Eli.. You can still make the HoF with the numbers that Brees puts up on the road..
Brees has actually played more games outside of a dome in his career and the stats are 10-20% below the indoor numbers. Eli's outdoor stats are better. And here's the kicker - Eli's only played 16 games in a dome. Brees has played 109 in a dome and 115 outdoors.
FatMan in Charlotte : 1:11 pm : link : reply
this is a bit disingenuous.
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And I know, Eli is 2 years younger, so he's clearly tossing 9,000 yards and 76 touchdowns in each of the next two seasons and evening up the scorecard.
Eli has played three season less than Brees, so while he won't match those numbers, he'll still be close and hasn't had the luxury of playing in a dome.
Like I said above - Brees' stats outside of the dome are completely different:
- Winning % - 13% lower
- Completion % - 5% lower
- QBR - 12 points lower
- In 6 more games outdoors, Brees has thrown for 5100 less yards
- 64 more TD's indoors in 6 fewer games
The differences are quite staggering.
You also have to post Eli's regular season road game stats.....are they lower?
As Giant fans, of course we favor Eli.....one advantage Brees has, I think, he has thrown way more td's inside the 10 yard line than Eli has......the Giants, under Coughlin, tended to run the ball in there, rather than pass....
Is there a stat somewhere that validates this?
It is Brees' lowest rate of completion
In 1st and goal situations, Brees is 97-181 with 49TD's
Eli is 53-128 and 35 TD's. Eli has 14 less TD's on 53 fewer completions.
But the Saints do throw more at the goaline. The Giants have 1.7 x the rushing TD's the Saints do in 1st and goal situations
This is about "eye candy" as much as stats. Brees is smooth, uncannily accurate, he produces "oh's, ahhh's, and wows.
Try to make a list of the ten best songs or films. You can't do it, my ten best would probably have thirty best films...The oblique point..at a certain level you can't differentiate, you can just say "it's on my ten best list" and smile because there's thirty on your ten best.
Over the last 4 years Eli about 17000 yds and 119 TDS.
If he matched those that puts him on the ballpark of Brees doesnt it?
Eli would have 65000 yds and 440 TDs compared to Brees now at 66000 yds and 465 TDs.
That's just using Elis last 4 seasons and saying he matches them. Those seem pretty comparable especially if you attribute a Dome friendly pass environment.
In comment 13525384 Mike in Long Beach said:
And I know, Eli is 2 years younger, so he's clearly tossing 9,000 yards and 76 touchdowns in each of the next two seasons and evening up the scorecard.
Good grief.
What's annoying is there are certainly qualifiers that absolutely legitimately do level that playing field. Brees has played in a dome for almost all of his career and that's inflated him numbers. But to lean on this as something that evens up the score is just so... I mean Jesus.
For instance, look at Mannings numbers in the dome on the road. In 4 games in the dome he was 10 TDs, 2 Ints, and 1100 yards. Imagine those numbers in the dome over an entire season? Granted the New Orleans defense has always sucked. Brees has definitely shined at home against the Giants with 17 TDs over 4 games. Switch fields though. In 3 games at Giants stadium... Brees has only 3 TDs to Mannings 5 TDs. I don't feel like breaking down all the stats, but they are all there on Pro football Reference in the game logs.
I'm saying very different QBs, very different offenses, very different home fields.
The SB wins point is ridiculous. One more SB win? Really?
Brees has been close to a 70% passer for a decade while averaging about 35TDs and fewer INTs than Eli.
hes an exceptional athlete and very tough. He doesn't lack anything that cows his team games.
Gotta remember too fellas, most of us don't watch every snap Brees takes. Brees seems like a solid guy off the field and I take nothing away from his HOF career. But I do think Eli is every bit as good.
Gotta remember too fellas, most of us don't watch every snap Brees takes. Brees seems like a solid guy off the field and I take nothing away from his HOF career. But I do think Eli is every bit as good.
+1 Excellent point.
You say half of them wouldn't be in the league.
That's great stuff right there.
The thing I'm pissed about is how the NYG football organization refused to simply copy the "QB Friendly" systems these other QBs were using.
Also, Eli's career TDs inside the 5 would be a lot higher if TC called his number more often instead of running the ball. Unlike the previously mentioned QBs that feasted on 1-yard TDs, Eli either didn't get the call or unselfishly checked into a run.
hes an exceptional athlete and very tough. He doesn't lack anything that cows his team games.
Kwall, my post was a fair point. Brees isn't the same qb outdoors, then add in the elements in those career defining games.
But here's the huge difference, Eli has played only 16 games indoors compared to Brees playing almost 110! And the other thing that is interesting - if you extrapolate eli's indoor stats to over 100 games, what do you know - he's again very close or better than Brees.
But no, weather can't possibly make a difference......
I'll repeat, with thanks to Uncle Junior's: Brees is a hot house flower. The next game he wins after getting the shit kicked out of him all day like Eli did againt the Niners in the2011 NFC Title game will be the first.
QB debates get a lot tougher when you compare guys like Eli and Brees and the rest. It's all but impossible to say who is truly better. Brees has some of the numbers but Eli has the two rings. Everyone says Brees but in reality it's not that simple. Brees plays in a dome and has probably had the more static offensive system than Eli has played in.
If you swapped Brees for Eli would the Saints really be worse off in the long run? Would the Giants be better off? Would the Giants have two more super bowl titles after 1990? I can't say for sure they would. They'd possibly have the more "prolific" QB but would Brees have delived the two titles in NY? I don't think so. MAybe one yes...but two? You're gonna guarantee that? You can't.
If you go by stats, fine, knock yourself out, but it's not that simple.
Or you could say BRees is clearly better based on his higher TD totals and higher completion %. It's not THAT much higher where we have to turn a blind eye to some of the differences in intangibles. Plus, Brees has started more games.
I'd be happy with either guy but I know Eli won two titles here. Bird in the hand...i'll keep it.
I'm not sure Brees ever played with the type of defense that the Giants had in the playoffs in 07 and 11. There's certainly some arguments in favor of Eli (mainly that Brees' numbers are inflated with 8 games in a dome each year versus Eli playing outside in sometimes cold weather) but the extra ring doesn't really swing much for me here.
Don't tell me Eli doesn't have better career stats if he plays in 100 more dome games. I can't take that take seriously. Just about any QB would put up better stats if they played more dome games.
Meanwhile, Brees' stats outside are very similar to Eli's.
That's why I don't buy the argument that stats tell the whole story and that saying Eli is as good as brees is laughable as a couple people have pointed out, not surprisingly one of them being KWALL.....
People are writing Eli off based on alleged struggles in 2016. I aint buyint it. I think Eli has a great 4th quarter of his career lined up. His team is nasty. Brees has hot garbage other than good WRs and RBs. His team won't win jack shit with that defense.
Eli is not done. He's going to have a big year.
Rodgers is the best pure QB alive. It's not even close.
You typically can't put QBs in a vacuum when judging their game but in the case of Rodgers, you can. He's a transcendent QB talent the likes of which we really haven't seen. He'd play well in a parking lot. He's elevate any franchise. He's Marino with better mobility and on the run ability and he's got a ring. He's a ridiculous QB. No one is in his class.
Eli is not the best QB in the NFL. But people who try to say that Ben R, Brees, Rivers or anyone else around is head and shoulders above him, I just can't take that argument seriously either.
Don't tell me Eli doesn't have better career stats if he plays in 100 more dome games. I can't take that take seriously. Just about any QB would put up better stats if they played more dome games.
I meant to say if you give Eli 60 more TDs.