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NFT: Knicks PAY Ron Baker...RIDICULOUS!

andrew_nyg : 7/11/2017 5:30 pm
$9MM over 2 years?! ($4.5MM per)

That's a shade less than what Dallas is paying Nowitski!

Between Baker and Hardaway Jr. they are paying $22.2MM per season for a grand total of 19 points per game.

NICE ROI Mills!

FML
Being discussed in the existing thread  
Deej : 7/11/2017 5:40 pm : link
Dirk is also taking less money than he is worth.
No doubt Dirk is taking below market value  
andrew_nyg : 7/11/2017 5:41 pm : link
where is the existing thread? I didn't see it.
Fix the Knicks, by JD and the Straight Shots  
JohnF : 7/11/2017 5:42 pm : link


Quote:
Check with my friend called Isiah Thomas. Fix the Knicks! Oh, man. Fix the Knicks! Fix the Knicks and make them shine/Get ‘em to win like it’s ’69/Hittin’ all their free throws and no more shooting bricks/Time to get it right and fix the Knicks
I rarely care about the money  
tbonfig : 7/11/2017 7:00 pm : link
I can't believe they gave him a player option. Wtf.
RE: No doubt Dirk is taking below market value  
Deej : 7/11/2017 7:21 pm : link
In comment 13525719 andrew_nyg said:
Quote:
where is the existing thread? I didn't see it.

Link - ( New Window )
i have a really hard time  
Natek212 : 7/11/2017 9:59 pm : link
believing he'd even have a roster spot on 75% of teams. Embarrassing contract.
The cap is supposed to go up  
81_Great_Dane : 7/11/2017 11:01 pm : link
so that softens the impact of the Hardaway & Baker deals, but still.
NBA salary cap expected to increase in the next two seasons - ( New Window )
The pieces are coming together.  
GiantsUA : 7/12/2017 7:52 am : link
Look out world, here come the Knicks! If only they could lock down Lance Thomas for the next 10 years - Golden State East anyone?
Baker has incredible energy  
mavric : 7/12/2017 8:38 am : link
and is a hard-nosed tenacious defender with proven NBA talent. Other teams would have given him the same deal and the Knicks knew it, so they locked him up before he could get stolen. He is very young and was one of the bright spots on the team. Reminds me of an early Danny Ainge without the whiny attitude.
I don't mind them bringing him back because I do think he has room to  
Heisenberg : 7/12/2017 8:41 am : link
grow. But again, the Knicks bid against themselves. They had rights to match. Who else was gonna give Burgundy this contract?
I can see the point of building around young guys  
Ten Ton Hammer : 7/12/2017 9:10 am : link
who give great effort and work hard, but only the Knicks would pay the young guys first, then ask them to work hard and grow together.

The point of fielding a very young team is so that they are inexpensive and striving toward that free agent contract.
The  
DanMetroMan : 7/12/2017 9:15 am : link
issue is and remains to be the willingness to toss in PO's. It's absolutely bizarre. If the Knicks believe in Ron Baker (he was by PER and WS/48 the worst player to appear in a Knicks uniform last season) but if they believe in him then "overpaying" him at 4.5 isn't that big of a deal, but the player option means if he sucks you are stuck paying him 9 million OR if you guessed right you paid him 4.5 million for the right to have to give him a much larger deal next year. Makes absolutely no sense and I don't see any defense for it.
Lakers  
DanMetroMan : 7/12/2017 9:16 am : link
signed KCP but are still in talks with Rondo.
It  
DanMetroMan : 7/12/2017 9:20 am : link
goes without saying but the Lakers should be much, much better this season with Ball, Lopez, KCP, Josh Hart, Kuzma + expected improvement from Ingram, Zubac, Randle, a very solid Clarkson. Rondo would be a nice cherry on top. They likely aren't making the playoffs but they may challenge for them.
The Knicks still need a PG.  
Keith : 7/12/2017 9:27 am : link
If not Rondo, the options are very limited. We should be looking for a veteran that can be had on a very short term deal who looks to distribute first. Rondo fits the mold and I'm guessing he and his agent are waiting on the Knicks to clarify the Melo/Lee situation to see how much we can offer.
Sergio  
DanMetroMan : 7/12/2017 9:29 am : link
Rodriguez has a 3 year deal on the table to play in Europe. Best available options might be Lawson (who played pretty well but has major red flags off the court) and Deron Williams. I would like to snipe Caruso from LAL but I don't think that's in the cards.
I saw that one game by Caruso and he looked the part.  
Keith : 7/12/2017 9:31 am : link
How has he played in the other games? Does he get minutes when Ball plays? What do you know about him? Is he more of a project?
yeah at this point just grab another...  
Italianju : 7/12/2017 9:35 am : link
kid and let them all battle it out. What is the point of bringing in a Deron WIlliams. I mean Sergio i kind of get as a good vet and the assumed goo relationship with the other euros. But if my choice is some summer league kid with some upside or Deron Williams then give me the kid. Assuming Melo is still gone then we are going to suck next year anyway. Id rather suck with kids then suck with dwill.
RE: I saw that one game by Caruso and he looked the part.  
DanMetroMan : 7/12/2017 9:36 am : link
In comment 13526055 Keith said:
Quote:
How has he played in the other games? Does he get minutes when Ball plays? What do you know about him? Is he more of a project?


Draftexpress makes it sound like he has legit NBA upside and really has a pretty glowing scouting report for a guy who wasn't even drafted. I watched highlights online after the performance the other day and he sure looks like an NBA player who can contribute (Linked is the DX piece). Really like to see us try and snipe him with a partial guarantee and a "promise" of a legit chance at winning a role (we can offer that given our PG situation)
Link - ( New Window )
would be nice for the Knicks...  
Italianju : 7/12/2017 9:38 am : link
to at least make one move that you might be like "ok, i like this move"
PS  
DanMetroMan : 7/12/2017 9:39 am : link
I fully admit I only learned of Caruso following the performance the other day. I can't claim to be some huge expert or think he's the next Steve Nash but I think this is the kind of guy worth taking a shot on.
Don't worry...  
brunswick : 7/12/2017 9:41 am : link
Knicks have no clue who he is
RE: would be nice for the Knicks...  
giants#1 : 7/12/2017 9:42 am : link
In comment 13526065 Italianju said:
Quote:
to at least make one move that you might be like "ok, i like this move"


They fired PJ. You only get 1 good move an offseason.
I'm not sure firing PJ counts as a good move  
Greg from LI : 7/12/2017 9:43 am : link
when his replacement is Steve Mills.
RE: The  
TyreeHelmet : 7/12/2017 10:10 am : link
In comment 13526038 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
issue is and remains to be the willingness to toss in PO's. It's absolutely bizarre. If the Knicks believe in Ron Baker (he was by PER and WS/48 the worst player to appear in a Knicks uniform last season) but if they believe in him then "overpaying" him at 4.5 isn't that big of a deal, but the player option means if he sucks you are stuck paying him 9 million OR if you guessed right you paid him 4.5 million for the right to have to give him a much larger deal next year. Makes absolutely no sense and I don't see any defense for it.


Kevin Pelton wrote about this on insider and I didn't even realize this but Baker was a restricted FA. Zero reason for the Knicks to use their room exception on him- especially on a 1 year deal plus PO. Go make Ron Baker get a deal and then match it if you want. Or if you want to sign him, make it for 3/4 years on the cheap with team options.

This offseason makes zero sense to me. All year long it was appparent that Rose was a detriment to the development of KP. Everyone saw the need for a veteran PG, especially with Frank on board. Where are they getting this veteran PG from?

The ineptitude of this front office is unmatched in the NBA.
RE: RE: The  
nygiants16 : 7/12/2017 10:11 am : link
In comment 13526109 TyreeHelmet said:
Quote:
In comment 13526038 DanMetroMan said:


Quote:


issue is and remains to be the willingness to toss in PO's. It's absolutely bizarre. If the Knicks believe in Ron Baker (he was by PER and WS/48 the worst player to appear in a Knicks uniform last season) but if they believe in him then "overpaying" him at 4.5 isn't that big of a deal, but the player option means if he sucks you are stuck paying him 9 million OR if you guessed right you paid him 4.5 million for the right to have to give him a much larger deal next year. Makes absolutely no sense and I don't see any defense for it.



Kevin Pelton wrote about this on insider and I didn't even realize this but Baker was a restricted FA. Zero reason for the Knicks to use their room exception on him- especially on a 1 year deal plus PO. Go make Ron Baker get a deal and then match it if you want. Or if you want to sign him, make it for 3/4 years on the cheap with team options.

This offseason makes zero sense to me. All year long it was appparent that Rose was a detriment to the development of KP. Everyone saw the need for a veteran PG, especially with Frank on board. Where are they getting this veteran PG from?

The ineptitude of this front office is unmatched in the NBA.


baker was not a restricted free agent..
With  
DanMetroMan : 7/12/2017 10:16 am : link
a normal franchise one would believe they are so confident in a Melo deal freeing up cash to chase a PG that the giving away cap room is less of a concern but we are at the point where if it's not Rondo (who himself has concerns) or Sergio Rodriguez (3 year deal on the table to play in the ACB) then the last remaining "veteran" PG of any note is a guy with highly publicized drinking problems... perfect for NYC and the circus that is the Knicks. It's not that we as fans disagree with their direction, the Knicks themselves don't seem to have one.
RE: With  
nygiants16 : 7/12/2017 10:18 am : link
In comment 13526116 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
a normal franchise one would believe they are so confident in a Melo deal freeing up cash to chase a PG that the giving away cap room is less of a concern but we are at the point where if it's not Rondo (who himself has concerns) or Sergio Rodriguez (3 year deal on the table to play in the ACB) then the last remaining "veteran" PG of any note is a guy with highly publicized drinking problems... perfect for NYC and the circus that is the Knicks. It's not that we as fans disagree with their direction, the Knicks themselves don't seem to have one.


well if you believe begely and jsports knicks are confident and houston are confident in getting a melo deal done, now if that clears cap space who knows
RE: PS  
Keith : 7/12/2017 10:18 am : link
In comment 13526066 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
I fully admit I only learned of Caruso following the performance the other day. I can't claim to be some huge expert or think he's the next Steve Nash but I think this is the kind of guy worth taking a shot on.


You can tell just from that one game, he has great court vision. Either you have it or you don't and he does.
RE: RE: With  
DanMetroMan : 7/12/2017 10:22 am : link
In comment 13526117 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 13526116 DanMetroMan said:


Quote:


a normal franchise one would believe they are so confident in a Melo deal freeing up cash to chase a PG that the giving away cap room is less of a concern but we are at the point where if it's not Rondo (who himself has concerns) or Sergio Rodriguez (3 year deal on the table to play in the ACB) then the last remaining "veteran" PG of any note is a guy with highly publicized drinking problems... perfect for NYC and the circus that is the Knicks. It's not that we as fans disagree with their direction, the Knicks themselves don't seem to have one.



well if you believe begely and jsports knicks are confident and houston are confident in getting a melo deal done, now if that clears cap space who knows


But cap space only matters if there are PG's to sign. Outside of Rondo who exactly are they signing? Deron Williams looks done, Lawson we know his issues. The cap space matters if there are players to sign. Which PG's are out there where some added cap space helps them sign a solid PG? I would have zero issue going with a guy like Caruso but the Knicks themselves made pretty clear they think Frank needs a mentor/isn't ready so...
Baker Restricted FA  
TyreeHelmet : 7/12/2017 10:24 am : link
From Begley-

"It's unclear if Baker, a restricted free agent, had drawn interest from other teams willing to pay him a salary comparable to his agreement with New York."

Woj-

"Restricted free agent Ron Baker's deal to stay with the Knicks: Two-years, $8.9M, including a player option, league sources tell ESPN."

Peltons article-

One of the biggest mistakes teams can make is falling in love with their own finds. As an undrafted rookie making the minimum salary, Baker was a find for the Knicks, starting 13 games and playing 857 minutes after making the team in training camp. But it's easy to overstate how well he played.

Though New York used Baker primarily at point guard last season, he's really more of a combo guard, the role he played in college. Baker's assist rate was below average for a point guard, as was his turnover rate. To be a useful NBA player, Baker will also have to bounce back from 3-point range. A 36.9 percent career 3-point shooter at Wichita State, Baker shot just 26.7 percent from the NBA line as a rookie, a major reason his true shooting percentage was a dismal .456.

Baker's salary ($9 million over two years) isn't especially problematic in and of itself. The issue is the team's management of resources. The Knicks used the entirety of their room midlevel to re-sign Baker, and that was their only avenue to add players making more than the veteran's minimum after landing Tim Hardaway Jr. on a four-year, $71 million offer sheet. Barring a trade, New York's point guards next season will be Baker, 18-year-old rookie Frank Ntilikina and a free agent signed at the minimum. That projects as the league's worst point guard rotation by a wide margin.

As ESPN's Bobby Marks notes, before signing Baker the Knicks can still use their small sliver of remaining cap space to sign second-round pick Damyean Dotson to a contract longer than two years. That will prevent a repeat of this situation. Baker was a free agent this summer because New York signed him to a one-year contract instead of a longer one that would have enabled the Knicks to retain him at a much lower price.

Jordan  
DanMetroMan : 7/12/2017 10:28 am : link
Bell looked incredible yesterday. Fucking Warriors.
Osman  
DanMetroMan : 7/12/2017 10:28 am : link
3 years 8.3 with the Cavs
RE: Baker Restricted FA  
nygiants16 : 7/12/2017 10:29 am : link
In comment 13526126 TyreeHelmet said:
Quote:
From Begley-

"It's unclear if Baker, a restricted free agent, had drawn interest from other teams willing to pay him a salary comparable to his agreement with New York."

Woj-

"Restricted free agent Ron Baker's deal to stay with the Knicks: Two-years, $8.9M, including a player option, league sources tell ESPN."

Peltons article-

One of the biggest mistakes teams can make is falling in love with their own finds. As an undrafted rookie making the minimum salary, Baker was a find for the Knicks, starting 13 games and playing 857 minutes after making the team in training camp. But it's easy to overstate how well he played.

Though New York used Baker primarily at point guard last season, he's really more of a combo guard, the role he played in college. Baker's assist rate was below average for a point guard, as was his turnover rate. To be a useful NBA player, Baker will also have to bounce back from 3-point range. A 36.9 percent career 3-point shooter at Wichita State, Baker shot just 26.7 percent from the NBA line as a rookie, a major reason his true shooting percentage was a dismal .456.

Baker's salary ($9 million over two years) isn't especially problematic in and of itself. The issue is the team's management of resources. The Knicks used the entirety of their room midlevel to re-sign Baker, and that was their only avenue to add players making more than the veteran's minimum after landing Tim Hardaway Jr. on a four-year, $71 million offer sheet. Barring a trade, New York's point guards next season will be Baker, 18-year-old rookie Frank Ntilikina and a free agent signed at the minimum. That projects as the league's worst point guard rotation by a wide margin.

As ESPN's Bobby Marks notes, before signing Baker the Knicks can still use their small sliver of remaining cap space to sign second-round pick Damyean Dotson to a contract longer than two years. That will prevent a repeat of this situation. Baker was a free agent this summer because New York signed him to a one-year contract instead of a longer one that would have enabled the Knicks to retain him at a much lower price.


they are wromg, because he was but knicks renounced his rights when they signed hardaway...

he was no longer a restricted free agent he was unrestricted and free to sign anywhere
if CLE signed Osman...  
Italianju : 7/12/2017 10:30 am : link
officially i wonder if that means they dont think they are in the running for melo anymore since they would have to wait to include Osman in the deal. Although if its not technically official (like sent to the league office) then it doesnt matter.
and what is bobby marks talking about?  
nygiants16 : 7/12/2017 10:32 am : link
baker was an undrafted free agent, he barely made the team why would they have given him a 2 year contract?
RE: and what is bobby marks talking about?  
TyreeHelmet : 7/12/2017 10:51 am : link
In comment 13526136 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
baker was an undrafted free agent, he barely made the team why would they have given him a 2 year contract?


Baker became unrestricted because the Knicks renounced him. They could have managed that better but that's what happens when steve mills is running things.

What marks is saying makes a lot of sense. Look at Willys deal- 4 years 8 mill. Morey and Hinkie and other smart teams do these deals all the time. The Knicks lost Langston Galloway because of this. Hopefully they don't make the same mistake with Dotson. These players have very little if any leverage. Make them team friendly deals.
Keeping Baker isn't the  
Metnut : 7/12/2017 10:55 am : link
worst thing in the world. There's some upside there and the price isn't TOO bad. I just don't understand why they did a team option. Make it either straight 2, straight 1, or best case have a team option. If he breaks out then he'll just opt-out and if he stinks he'll just opt-in and take up cap room. I don't think Baker had the type of leverage to get such a player favorable option.
RE: RE: and what is bobby marks talking about?  
nygiants16 : 7/12/2017 10:57 am : link
In comment 13526164 TyreeHelmet said:
Quote:
In comment 13526136 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


baker was an undrafted free agent, he barely made the team why would they have given him a 2 year contract?



Baker became unrestricted because the Knicks renounced him. They could have managed that better but that's what happens when steve mills is running things.

What marks is saying makes a lot of sense. Look at Willys deal- 4 years 8 mill. Morey and Hinkie and other smart teams do these deals all the time. The Knicks lost Langston Galloway because of this. Hopefully they don't make the same mistake with Dotson. These players have very little if any leverage. Make them team friendly deals.


huh? why would the knicks have done that with baker? he barely made the team he got a partial guarantee because they thought they would cut him and he would go to the d league...

willy got that deal because he was a high level prospect and the knicks drafted him in the 2nd round, no one gives undrsfted free agents more than 1 year deals...

even the spurs jist lost dedmon, they only gave him a 1 year deal...

what undrafted free agent gets a guaranteed 2 years?

dotson will probably get at least 2 years guaranteed because he was a 2nd round pick, big difference between ron baker and dotson
NYGiants16  
TyreeHelmet : 7/12/2017 11:04 am : link
I'm by no means a cap expert but there are creative ways to get these guys on very team friendly deals. Make them with team options or not fully guaranteed. No risk for the team and all upside. You mean to tell me Ron Baker had more leverage than Willy? Who was a high 2nd round pick. These deals happen all the time the Knicks just aren't smart enough to execute them. And all these little moves add up to building a winning team.
RE: NYGiants16  
nygiants16 : 7/12/2017 11:09 am : link
In comment 13526179 TyreeHelmet said:
Quote:
I'm by no means a cap expert but there are creative ways to get these guys on very team friendly deals. Make them with team options or not fully guaranteed. No risk for the team and all upside. You mean to tell me Ron Baker had more leverage than Willy? Who was a high 2nd round pick. These deals happen all the time the Knicks just aren't smart enough to execute them. And all these little moves add up to building a winning team.


willy was not coming over here on a 1 year deal and you want to give him 3 years because then you own his bird rights...

give baker 2 years 2nd year non guaranteed is the same as giving him a 1 year deal, either way they would of renounced him for the cap space..

there was nothing the knicks could of done to change him from becoming an unrestricted free agent other then sign no one...

and baker was never going to get more than 1 year becaise no one thought he would make the team...
RE: NYGiants16  
nygiants16 : 7/12/2017 11:10 am : link
In comment 13526179 TyreeHelmet said:
Quote:
I'm by no means a cap expert but there are creative ways to get these guys on very team friendly deals. Make them with team options or not fully guaranteed. No risk for the team and all upside. You mean to tell me Ron Baker had more leverage than Willy? Who was a high 2nd round pick. These deals happen all the time the Knicks just aren't smart enough to execute them. And all these little moves add up to building a winning team.


please name the undrafted free agent that got 2 years fully guaranteed?
I'm old enough to remember when NY had a professional basketball team.  
Victor in CT : 7/12/2017 11:22 am : link
Boy do I miss those days.
It's amazing that they're poised to go into next season  
Ten Ton Hammer : 7/12/2017 12:56 pm : link
with a worse PG situation than last year.
CP3  
DanMetroMan : 7/12/2017 1:01 pm : link
sure is implying Melo will be a Rocket
RE: It's amazing that they're poised to go into next season  
Deej : 7/12/2017 2:11 pm : link
In comment 13526335 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
with a worse PG situation than last year.


Not really amazing. Last year they were trying to chase the playoffs -- actually I bet they thought they were chasing a home rounds. This year they're acknowledging a rebuild. Not a tank, but a youth movement.
RE: CP3  
TyreeHelmet : 7/12/2017 2:15 pm : link
In comment 13526340 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
sure is implying Melo will be a Rocket


With this rumored 4 team deal, I wish the Knicks just focused on acquiring the best assets/picks and not worry about the contracts. That's out the window now though.
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