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Montana: Not Ready To Crown Brady The G.O.A.T

gidiefor : Mod : 7/11/2017 6:50 pm
Quote:
“Everybody talks about greatest of all time, even before he got five. It’s just really difficult,” Montana said of picking the best ever. “I always tell people to go back and look at Sammy Baugh and Otto Graham footage and you’ll see it’s really how you compare those guys to today’s game and how you compare today’s game back to as far back as when we played.”

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I don't disagree with him.  
Beezer : 7/11/2017 6:58 pm : link
We always have discussions here about how numbers are just one part of it. Is Emmitt Smith the greatest running back of all-time? I think few here would say so. Among them, sure. Greatest? Because he has the most yards? Brady's a great QB. The most SB titles of the QBs. For me, just too many things factor in to name one guy above all.
Montana never gave us credit for screwing up their  
Big Blue '56 : 7/11/2017 7:37 pm : link
threepeat..He has been bothered (imo) by the opinions that place him second to Brady all-time..I don't recall him ever giving Brady his due..

GOAT?  
Big Blue '56 : 7/11/2017 7:38 pm : link
Brady at QB, LT on D and Jimmy Brown as best RB..Then there are the other tiers of superstars
RE: GOAT?  
Danny Kanell : 7/11/2017 7:40 pm : link
In comment 13525795 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
Brady at QB, LT on D and Jimmy Brown as best RB..Then there are the other tiers of superstars


Agreed. I'd also put Rice at WR on those guys' level.
My evidence  
twostepgiants : 7/11/2017 8:18 pm : link
Sanu: “They ain’t ever met nothing like this.”

Gabriel: “It’s Tom Brady, though.”

Sanu: “I know. I know. I’m never comfortable. We about to put up 40-something on their a**. What I’m saying is, they ain’t never seen anything like this.”

Gabriel: "We got to."

You will notice he references only Tom Brady as opposed to New England or the Patriots.

And Gabriel and Sanu are on offense
RE: RE: GOAT?  
Big Blue '56 : 7/11/2017 8:28 pm : link
In comment 13525796 Danny Kanell said:
Quote:
In comment 13525795 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


Brady at QB, LT on D and Jimmy Brown as best RB..Then there are the other tiers of superstars



Agreed. I'd also put Rice at WR on those guys' level.


Yup
Agree  
Bill2 : 7/11/2017 8:31 pm : link
BB56 and Danny
It's not a huge point  
Moondawg : 7/11/2017 8:54 pm : link
but I do sympathize with the frustration with people who say "all time" but who have zero understanding of football or football players before 1967.
I hear what he is saying  
RasputinPrime : 7/11/2017 9:16 pm : link
but Brady has earned it at QB.
I have a problem with people  
joeinpa : 7/11/2017 9:27 pm : link
Who dismiss eras of the past. My criteria for greatness is how they dominated their era. Montana was pretty good. Not much to choose between him and Brady.

There are a few others I s out in that category as well.
Well the one thing that's does have to be taken into account is  
LauderdaleMatty : 7/11/2017 10:00 pm : link
The abuse QBs used to take. Can you imagine the fine And how long the suspension Leonard Marshall would get today for his hit on Montana. Not sure how long some of today's guys would last.

Not saying. Brady isn't the best either. But the rules are so skewed tofaybfor QBs comapared even to the 80s it's not unreasonable

IMO though Brown and LT would be good even today.
I mean just as dominant  
LauderdaleMatty : 7/11/2017 10:01 pm : link
For LT and Brown. God like compared to most
Hate the Patriots  
Southern Man : 7/11/2017 10:59 pm : link
But it is very hard to deny the due Tom Brady should get. I wouldn't trade him for Eli, well, because Eli is my QB. But what has made the Patriots possible is as much Brady as it is Belichick. Amazing what he's done with a constant changing of the guard.

Montana's time was great, but it just didn't seem to last as long as Brady's.
Well  
trueblueinpw : 7/11/2017 11:02 pm : link
I never shy away from a chance to tweek the BBI Tom Brady fan club so...

Let's just say that Tommy Uggs plays for the Jets and not Hoodie's Pats. Does Brady win any rings playing for the Jets? We all know Tom and his baby mama would still live in New York but I think that's about all which would be similar to the charmed career Brady's had in New England.

Brady works hard, he's smaht and makes all the throws. He's a great QB. But he plays as a part of the best run football team of all time. He's a big part of the success in NE but he ain't the secret sauce. Without Belichick, the legend of Tom Brady is never written.

For one game, or if I'm picking an all time great, I'd take Rodgers over either Brady or Super Joe.
Brady Has The Most Post Season Accomplishments / Championships  
Trainmaster : 7/11/2017 11:50 pm : link
Is he the most talented QB? I don't think so. Are there other QBs, given the same coach, situations etc. do as well or better? I think so.

In the Super Bowl era, if I need a QB for one game, I'm taking Elway. Smarts, arm strength, accuracy and mobility. He was very hamstrung by Dan Reeves. Elway on the 80s/90s 49ers or 2000s, 2010s Patriots win as many or more than Montana or Brady IMHO.

If your criteria is solely or very strongly based on championships, you have to pick Brady. Otherwise, pick someone else as the GOAT QB.

Jim Brown and LT are, respectively, the GOAT on their side of the ball  
glowrider : 7/12/2017 3:18 am : link
Everyone else comes after, including Brady/Montana.
never will be the GOAT  
SHO'NUFF : 7/12/2017 3:34 am : link
if you've lost in the Championship... take a seat next to LeBron.
Okay, I missed it and I'm ignorant  
Montreal Man : 7/12/2017 6:49 am : link
What is G.0.A.T?
RE: Okay, I missed it and I'm ignorant  
JayBinQueens : 7/12/2017 6:53 am : link
In comment 13525960 Montreal Man said:
Quote:
What is G.0.A.T?

Greatest Of All Time
RE: Well the one thing that's does have to be taken into account is  
Montreal Man : 7/12/2017 6:56 am : link
In comment 13525890 LauderdaleMatty said:
Quote:
The abuse QBs used to take. Can you imagine the fine And how long the suspension Leonard Marshall would get today for his hit on Montana. Not sure how long some of today's guys would last.

Not saying. Brady isn't the best either. But the rules are so skewed tofaybfor QBs comapared even to the 80s it's not unreasonable

IMO though Brown and LT would be good even today.


Agreed. BUt how dominant COULD he be allowed to be given the limits today's rules and the changing game allow him to be. LT was unrestrained. That and his fantastic talent makes him, to me, the greatest D guy in game ever. These days, I think he'd have to be more careful, which would take away the abandon he had at game time.

Thoughts?
If we play the Patriots  
Josiah31 : 7/12/2017 7:21 am : link
In the Super Bowl this year and beat them...again. Do you think that hurts Brady's legacy? Would you guys still consider him the best? How could you if he can't beat Eli?
GOAT is Greatest of ALL time  
Rory : 7/12/2017 8:16 am : link
not "greatest of their time".

To say guys from the earlier years would replicate the same production in this league today is not true.

Point being the game is faster , the players are stronger , and the playbook are even more challenging.

Not to mention the intensity of coverage from the media. You think players would be able to skate out of off field issues today as they did back then.

love him , hate him , respect him ...Brady is the GOAT
I still prefer  
PaulBlakeTSU : 7/12/2017 8:17 am : link
Peyton. Way too many moving parts in football that impact the QB position to definitively claim one is the best.
It is so tough..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 7/12/2017 8:32 am : link
to judge players from long ago though.

Quote:
It's not a huge point
Moondawg : 7/11/2017 8:54 pm : link : reply
but I do sympathize with the frustration with people who say "all time" but who have zero understanding of football or football players before 1967.


Guys the size of me were lineman and after the games, guys would go have beers and smokes.

Hell, people marvel at Babe ruth, but he wasn't facing players from around the world or even players of color. The pool of athletes from back then was so much smaller, and that doesn't even take into account the fact that sports didn't pay all that well (especially football), meaning many potential players took a business job or worked on a family farm, etc.
RE: I still prefer  
chuckydee9 : 7/12/2017 8:37 am : link
In comment 13525989 PaulBlakeTSU said:
Quote:
Peyton. Way too many moving parts in football that impact the QB position to definitively claim one is the best.


Same here.. Peyton Manning went to 4 SB with the following coaches imagine what he would've done with the evil genius..
Gary Kubiak
John Fox
Tony Dungy
and Jim Caldwell...
RE: It is so tough..  
Moondawg : 7/12/2017 9:29 am : link
In comment 13525996 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
to judge players from long ago though.



Quote:


It's not a huge point
Moondawg : 7/11/2017 8:54 pm : link : reply
but I do sympathize with the frustration with people who say "all time" but who have zero understanding of football or football players before 1967.



Guys the size of me were lineman and after the games, guys would go have beers and smokes.

Hell, people marvel at Babe ruth, but he wasn't facing players from around the world or even players of color. The pool of athletes from back then was so much smaller, and that doesn't even take into account the fact that sports didn't pay all that well (especially football), meaning many potential players took a business job or worked on a family farm, etc.


This is precisely why I wonder if we should just abandon "all time" and decide on the best people *in their times*. The same old timers you speak of here would have the benefit of year-round training, and not just God-given talent.

With Brady, why not say "best QB of the Super Bowl Era" or something like that?
I tend to always  
Metnut : 7/12/2017 9:34 am : link
give the benefit of the doubt to the more recent player when these discussions happen. Players today are (generally) bigger and faster than players from prior decades, especially players from the 19XXs. The coaching is also more sophisticated these days. My list of GOAT would probably start and end with Brady and (Peyton) Manning.
RE: RE: GOAT?  
NNJ Tom : 7/12/2017 9:46 am : link
In comment 13525796 Danny Kanell said:
Quote:
In comment 13525795 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


Brady at QB, LT on D and Jimmy Brown as best RB..Then there are the other tiers of superstars



Agreed. I'd also put Rice at WR on those guys' level.


This
I don't know...  
bradshaw44 : 7/12/2017 10:16 am : link
What he just did in the last super bowl was damn near super human. I hate that he plays for NE but Brady is worthy of being called greatest ever. And he's always given the GMEN credit for beating him twice. He never talked trash or made excuses. And let's not forget, had they beaten us he would have seven rings. Seven.
RE: GOAT?  
Mr. Bungle : 7/12/2017 10:25 am : link
In comment 13525795 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
Brady at QB, LT on D and Jimmy Brown as best RB..Then there are the other tiers of superstars

You're the only person I ever heard call Jim Brown "Jimmy Brown."
Brady is the greatest  
Les in TO : 7/12/2017 10:36 am : link
of the last 30 years since I've started watching football. i never saw unitas, graham etc play so I can't make an apples to apples personal comparison.
He'd come off a lot better if he said Brady was easily the GOAT  
Mike in Long Beach : 7/12/2017 10:43 am : link
Even if he didn't believe it.
Brady has 5  
Ron Johnson : 7/12/2017 11:48 am : link
so he will win almost any argument.

Odd thing is Rodgers his been better just about every year he's been a starter.
Joe must still be feeling that Leonard Marshall hit  
32_Razor : 7/12/2017 12:15 pm : link
With that comment as evidence.
I don't remember Baugh, but I do remember Otto Graham.  
Ira : 7/12/2017 12:22 pm : link
His long bombs were a thing of beauty. Montana's right. It's hard to compare players of different eras. GOAT is not much more than speculation.
It always seemed like Montana  
USAF NYG Fan : 7/12/2017 12:53 pm : link
was always considered the GOAT (and I mean of all players) until Brady (or the current air it out era). Sometimes it seems that instead of Brady surpassing Montana as the GOAT he just diluted the options. Now people make more arguments for the GOAT (again of all players). It seems like less people want to name a QB as the GOAT.

Just what I've noticed. Not my opinion. I could be mistaken.
RE: I tend to always  
Greg from LI : 7/12/2017 12:58 pm : link
In comment 13526059 Metnut said:
Quote:
give the benefit of the doubt to the more recent player when these discussions happen. Players today are (generally) bigger and faster than players from prior decades, especially players from the 19XXs. The coaching is also more sophisticated these days. My list of GOAT would probably start and end with Brady and (Peyton) Manning.


On the other hand, the level of competition was much greater in that era and the rules were not slanted to promote the passing game as they are today.
RE: RE: GOAT?  
Big Blue '56 : 7/12/2017 1:17 pm : link
In comment 13526128 Mr. Bungle said:
Quote:
In comment 13525795 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


Brady at QB, LT on D and Jimmy Brown as best RB..Then there are the other tiers of superstars


You're the only person I ever heard call Jim Brown "Jimmy Brown."


He was known as Jimmy Brown when he played. That's all I ever knew him as..He changed to Jim Brown in the movies and that followed him all the way to today
As hard as it is to compare players of different eras,  
Section331 : 7/12/2017 3:34 pm : link
it is also hard to compare players from different situations. I don't want to sound like I'm diminishing Brady in any way, he's an all-time great, and a no doubt 1st ballot HOF'er, but it does matter that he has the best coach of the last 30 years. The Pats won 11 games with Matt Cassell at QB, and he's been dogshit ever since. They went 3-1 last year with Jimmy Garoppolo and the immortal Jacoby Brissett.

The fact that Peyton won a SB with Jim Freaking Caldwell means something. Looking at another era, would Bart Starr be a HOF QB with a coach not named Lombardi? Or Montana without Walsh? Determining a GOAT ignores too many factors to be worth anything. That's wwhy I look at greatness in tiers. Both Brady and Peyton are in the top tier, but I'm hesitant to call either the GOAT.
RE: Brady Has The Most Post Season Accomplishments / Championships  
NINEster : 7/13/2017 1:36 am : link
In comment 13525932 Trainmaster said:
Quote:
Is he the most talented QB? I don't think so. Are there other QBs, given the same coach, situations etc. do as well or better? I think so.

In the Super Bowl era, if I need a QB for one game, I'm taking Elway. Smarts, arm strength, accuracy and mobility. He was very hamstrung by Dan Reeves. Elway on the 80s/90s 49ers or 2000s, 2010s Patriots win as many or more than Montana or Brady IMHO.

If your criteria is solely or very strongly based on championships, you have to pick Brady. Otherwise, pick someone else as the GOAT QB.


Montana beating Elway head to head on MNF as a Chief was great validation of his true greatness.

Also beating Steve Young the year the Niners last won the Super Bowl.

Joe's career with SF was cut short, and he was 4-0 by year 10 while Brady was only 3-1 by the same point in his career.

It wasn't until beating Seattle and now Atlanta that Brady GOAT talks have become "undisputed" but for awhile there he was having a hard enough time convincing people he was better than Peyton Manning.

There are also contradictions with people who easily acknowledge that Dan Marino is better than probably 80% of SB winning QBs, but yet Brady edging out Montana by one ring or making it to the big game a few more times is some undeniable "proof" that he's superior.

It's extremely close, and Brady's longevity has to be respected. But for pure talent and getting it done, Joe has every right to feel he's better.

He had way better mobility and played his entire career (every snap) under center. IMO a superior deep ball as well.

It's a good debate that can go either way.

And the difference between Patriots fans and 49er fans is this simple:

Patriots fans claim their boy is the GOAT despite losing two SBs to a wildcard team.

49er fans would nearly disown Montana if that was the case. See Steve Young prior to 1994 failing to get past a juggernaut Cowboy team.
RE: Montana never gave us credit for screwing up their  
NINEster : 7/13/2017 1:38 am : link
In comment 13525791 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
threepeat..He has been bothered (imo) by the opinions that place him second to Brady all-time..I don't recall him ever giving Brady his due..


He and Young give the Giants' plenty of credit for being a tough foe. What has Brady said about the Giants in similar regard?

The Giants of that era had nothing but s***ty thing to say about the Niners. If sweetheart Simms wanted to fight Ronnie Lott, that tells you everything you need to know about that locker room.
QB's are more protected these days  
madgiantscow009 : 7/13/2017 5:10 am : link
and comparing eras is fun, but fruitless.
RE: RE: Montana never gave us credit for screwing up their  
Big Blue '56 : 7/13/2017 7:02 am : link
In comment 13526924 NINEster said:
Quote:
In comment 13525791 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


threepeat..He has been bothered (imo) by the opinions that place him second to Brady all-time..I don't recall him ever giving Brady his due..




He and Young give the Giants' plenty of credit for being a tough foe. What has Brady said about the Giants in similar regard?

The Giants of that era had nothing but s***ty thing to say about the Niners. If sweetheart Simms wanted to fight Ronnie Lott, that tells you everything you need to know about that locker room.


He absolutely did not in the early to mid '90s..He was brutal on an Inside the NFL (?) pre Giants/Bills SB preview..Gave us zero respect..It's possible he was still sore (physically and emotionally) after the beating we gave him. Might have been on ESPN or another preview show..I chalked it up to his feelings from the NFCC, but it lingered for a few years afterwards. I transferred onto DVD, so I'll look into it
The Giants left..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 7/13/2017 8:08 am : link
a bitter mess in the mouths of most of those Niners. The ones that went on to become broadcasters have openly discussed the losses to us and still remain bitter. Steve young is a prime example. Matt Millen is an excellent example. Randy Cross still holds a grudge as does Russ Francis.

I know it was a bigger rivalry, but years later, ex-Niners seem to be more upset with the Giants than the Pats from 07 and 11.
You can go round and round on this....  
Doomster : 7/14/2017 4:29 pm : link
You can say, what if Wilson doesn't throw that pick or the stupid play calling by Atlanta doesn't happen and they kick that fg, is Brady's rep tarnished?

You could also say, what happens if Brady has more time in both Giant losses, and wins both games?

Has nothing to do with woulda, coulda , or shoulda, it's the end result....

As we all know it's not QB's that win games, it's the team.....but they tend to get the credit/blame....

But let's face it.....Brady has a resume that is hard to beat....and it's not over yet....
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