Looks like 1 on each side of the ball.
Offense -
I look at our depth chart and I still see Bobbie Hart at RT. How did we let this happen again? The only competition looks to be Fluker who isn't an NFL OT, rookie 6th round pick Bisnowaty and UDFA's Wheeler, Dunker and Jones? Hart lacked play strength last year and was slow-footed in pass pro. I just really do not want to see this guy as our starting RT again. Are we praying Biz is the real deal or that Hart goes from liability to + player?
Defense -
Not getting a 3rd pass rusher (again). I love Apple but imagine having Leonard Floyd off the edge as that 3rd and long backbreaker? He put up 7 sacks, 1 FF and 2 PD's in 12 games and was that gangly speed rusher as advertised. We added Devin Taylor, Avery Moss and Evan Schwan - perhaps 1 will step up. Cosell really likes Moss and Spags said he reminds him of Hugh Douglas. Schwan reportedly showed an explosive 1st step at OTA's and mini-camp.
As of right now, we don't have a particularly scary 3rd and long DL outside Vernon and JPP.
As for the RT situation - I'm not sure if you're assuming great tackles just grow in the Meadowlands swamps and are readily available. Every team has positions that are going to be questions marks - that doesn't make them "errors", just the reality of the NFL.
Right now, it's Hart's job to lose although Bisnowaty could press him.
I, for one, am also a big fan of Bisnowatty. I think he is going to push Hart and we are going to get, at worst, average play out of the RT position this year. Best man will win. Last year, there was no real competition for the RT spot.
More upside ... Florida State kid who started at RT his junior and senior seasons in college, so it's not as if he's out of position. AND (some think it's better to plug perceived holes, but I believe) the fact that this line might be intact from last season ... well, that continuity could end up being a pretty big deal for improvement, as a unit.
That makes exercises like this futile.
I just don't think you can fill every hole in an off-season through FA acquisitions, some of it has to come from organic development.
So Owkara, Odi (who knows where he's at), Moss, etc. need to contribute at DE.
And on the OL, Flowers is the key, even more than RT, Flowers needs to show a big improvement from last year.
Going into the season, knowing those are the two biggest areas of concern, I'm a lot more confident than I've been in a long time.
I, for one, am also a big fan of Bisnowatty. I think he is going to push Hart and we are going to get, at worst, average play out of the RT position this year. Best man will win. Last year, there was no real competition for the RT spot.
For all the hand-wringing, the Giants could potentially be set at Tackle for a decade.
Mr. Preseason Optomist says it is so. We will see continued improvement from both players. And yes - they ARE our starters. No rookie is bumping Hart, unless he completely self-destructs.
I'm a big fan of these guys and the way they're going at it. They're very young, so for them to have that work ethic is very promising.
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You have to take into account that the kid is STILL only 22. He was essentially a rookie last year that was forced into duty. Lets give him 1 more year with a full training camp as a starter before we give up on the dude.
I, for one, am also a big fan of Bisnowatty. I think he is going to push Hart and we are going to get, at worst, average play out of the RT position this year. Best man will win. Last year, there was no real competition for the RT spot.
Flowers is 23, Hart is 22.
For all the hand-wringing, the Giants could potentially be set at Tackle for a decade.
Mr. Preseason Optomist says it is so. We will see continued improvement from both players. And yes - they ARE our starters. No rookie is bumping Hart, unless he completely self-destructs.
This is the time of the year for unbridled optimism and rose colored glasses.
My recollection is in BOTH stints with the Giants Spagnola's defense took two years to gel (NYG defense was last in the NFL in his first year as DC.)
So not only are Flowers and Hart youngsters, but Solari is only entering his 2nd year.
Hopefully the pieces will fall in place in year 2.
My gut tells me Fluker is the top backup RG and likely RT to start the season. Bisnotway may be the 3rd RT and backup LT if the Giants think his college experience is enough for him to hold the fort while Flowers heals. Or Pugh slides to LT and B. Jones moves to LG. Hard to say until the pads go on and we see what we have.
D. Taylor can rush as can R. Okwara. I think we have more rush this year than last year.
All that being said, every single team has weaknesses all over the field. I would be willing to bet that the majority of teams have more question marks than we do. We are about as stacked as we can be everywhere on the field except OL.
I like what I am hearing about Biz, Hart & Flowers work ethic. Tight ends will help some of the flaws
I look at Taylor signing as about the same as Ayers. That worked out okay for everyone. And the Giants have some young prospects who can work in to the lineup if Taylor doesn't produce enough. The catch is they will probably have to keep 5 DEs on the 53 in order to develop one prospect.
(I'll save you the time, there aren't any)
And I think people sort of lose sight of this when they talk about the Giants. I think a lot of people get older and really only pay close attention to NYG (which is fine) and don't really know much about the other teams in the league which leads them to make certain assumptions that aren't necessarily accurate.
Of course I'd like if our OL was 100% solidified without question marks and we had a bevy of pass rushers to send in waves but you can't have unlimited depth everywhere in this league and I'd say the vast majority of teams in this league would LOVE to have the pair of DE's we have.
It's fine to acknowledge perceived weaknesses - but it's important to understand context and be realistic.
Can't have everything.
If they hadn't gotten a TE or DT then those would be on your list. In FA, they grabbed a blocking TE and WR. If not for grabbing those, then those would be on your list.
You can argue they should've gotten an OL or pass rusher in the 3rd round, but the changes of a 3rd rounder stepping up in those departments is small. I am less concerned then you on the pass rushing department because there is a good chance that between Bromley, Moss, Okwara, and Kennard someone will step up. The fact is Spags has a great defense to work with, its up to him to scheme up pressure now.
On the OL, welcome to choir, we are always looking for new preachers.
I look at Taylor signing as about the same as Ayers. That worked out okay for everyone. And the Giants have some young prospects who can work in to the lineup if Taylor doesn't produce enough. The catch is they will probably have to keep 5 DEs on the 53 in order to develop one prospect.
I'm a big fan of these guys and the way they're going at it. They're very young, so for them to have that work ethic is very promising.
+1
Who the F is Aldrick Rosas?
Optimism within the Giants organization does not usually manifest from wishful thinking. I believe that they are fully aware of individual development of these young men. Also I expect that the depth on the OL has been greatly improved. Bisnowaty and Wheeler are 4 year starters from major college programs, Pitt and USC respectively. Fluker was an early first round selection who played well his first season at tackle, then moved to guard. I think that he will surprise many on this forum. Jerry has been training at Bentley OL training facility in Arizona.
OL coach Solari has been successful developing a good to outstanding run blocking OL in the past, is it the belief that he has somehow forgotten how to coach? This is the 2nd year of his tenure, I expect that the OL may take a great leap forward. If all the hard work pays dividends and this outcome manifests, the Giants O will become a juggernaut and Eli Manning will have his greatest season to date.
I suggest that the many doubters take solace in the effort being employed by many front line members of this unit. Since hard work usually pays off, at least reserve the criticism until they put the pads on and test their meddle against one of the best DL in the NFL. If the old adage iron sharpens iron is true, the Giants practice field may prove to be a blacksmiths forge tempering steel.
(I'll save you the time, there aren't any)
And I think people sort of lose sight of this when they talk about the Giants. I think a lot of people get older and really only pay close attention to NYG (which is fine) and don't really know much about the other teams in the league which leads them to make certain assumptions that aren't necessarily accurate.
Of course I'd like if our OL was 100% solidified without question marks and we had a bevy of pass rushers to send in waves but you can't have unlimited depth everywhere in this league and I'd say the vast majority of teams in this league would LOVE to have the pair of DE's we have.
It's fine to acknowledge perceived weaknesses - but it's important to understand context and be realistic.
Nailed it.
The vast majority of players that don't make it in the NFL have the heart and work ethic to make it, but lack the talent.
It is very trite to make it sound like all you need to do was work hard and you'll be a successful athlete at the top level. Every year, you'll find LB's and linemen who tear it up in college, but often are bottom of the roster guys or cut. Ben Boulware was a maniac on the field for Clemson and right now he has a slim chance of sticking as a UDFA with Carolina. His story isn't unique. Meanwhile, you'll find players with not a great work ethic who excel because of talent. LT avoided the weight room like the plague. Some guys have non-football interests.
Hard work, dedication and focus exist in nearly everyone of the players vying for roster spots, so you have a shitload of athletes cut every year who exhibit those traits and are unemployed in football terms.
Optimism within the Giants organization does not usually manifest from wishful thinking. I believe that they are fully aware of individual development of these young men. Also I expect that the depth on the OL has been greatly improved. Bisnowaty and Wheeler are 4 year starters from major college programs, Pitt and USC respectively. Fluker was an early first round selection who played well his first season at tackle, then moved to guard. I think that he will surprise many on this forum. Jerry has been training at Bentley OL training facility in Arizona.
OL coach Solari has been successful developing a good to outstanding run blocking OL in the past, is it the belief that he has somehow forgotten how to coach? This is the 2nd year of his tenure, I expect that the OL may take a great leap forward. If all the hard work pays dividends and this outcome manifests, the Giants O will become a juggernaut and Eli Manning will have his greatest season to date.
I suggest that the many doubters take solace in the effort being employed by many front line members of this unit. Since hard work usually pays off, at least reserve the criticism until they put the pads on and test their meddle against one of the best DL in the NFL. If the old adage iron sharpens iron is true, the Giants practice field may prove to be a blacksmiths forge tempering steel.
Very well put sir!
We are not speaking of limited athleticism, but undeveloped technique. The premise you offered is a legitimate one but, I think this training camp and preseason will be a revelation to many. If what I suspect is true and the OL takes a leap forward, the Giants Offense will be hard to defend.
The Giants DL will be a severe challenge to all opponents this season. Imagine how this level of competition will challenge and improve the OL performance through continuous practice. My only concern is injury from the ferocity which may be exhibited by the heighten level of competition.
MasherJints : 12:12 pm : link : reply
I don't recall anyone, much less being so young.
The list would be in the hundreds and more. Every professional athlete I've known works out religiously and strives to be the best they can be in their sport.
Look at the stories of camp invitees and UDFA's - they put the bodies on the line, often to the detriment of getting injured, just in training camp. Guys use the offseason to attend camps, to work on specific skills, etc.
I love hearing stories that extra work is being put in, but let's not make this seem like the exception instead of the norm.
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Name the last player who forewent their time off to get better
MasherJints : 12:12 pm : link : reply
I don't recall anyone, much less being so young.
The list would be in the hundreds and more. Every professional athlete I've known works out religiously and strives to be the best they can be in their sport.
Look at the stories of camp invitees and UDFA's - they put the bodies on the line, often to the detriment of getting injured, just in training camp. Guys use the offseason to attend camps, to work on specific skills, etc.
I love hearing stories that extra work is being put in, but let's not make this seem like the exception instead of the norm.
NFL careers are short and all draft picks, UDFA's and "on the bubble" veterans are certainly going to work 110%. Established bets, 109%. LOL
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Name the last player who forewent their time off to get better
MasherJints : 12:12 pm : link : reply
I don't recall anyone, much less being so young.
The list would be in the hundreds and more. Every professional athlete I've known works out religiously and strives to be the best they can be in their sport.
Look at the stories of camp invitees and UDFA's - they put the bodies on the line, often to the detriment of getting injured, just in training camp. Guys use the offseason to attend camps, to work on specific skills, etc.
I love hearing stories that extra work is being put in, but let's not make this seem like the exception instead of the norm.
Sorry. Know plenty of pros wondont out the same effort into it.
Know personally of one UFC fighter who luckily hasn't got popped or smoking pot but was seen smoking all the time. He also has missed weight numerous times. Not a small timer but a relatively know name and a young guy who could have made a run.
You really think all players put forth the same effort. Would that include Will Hill? Damontre Moore. Marvin Austin?
That's different than saying two guys putting in a lot of effort are some sort of anomaly.
The professional athletes who take their careers seriously understand that maintaining their ability level, health and fitness is paramount to success. The vast majority of them work out at team facilities, have personal trainers on the side and a lot even have dieticians and other "health guides".
Very rarely are you going to find a guy just camping out in his room smoking pot and eating cheeseburgers while playing the Xbox anytime they aren't on the field.
And don't necessarily equate pot smoking with laziness. Keith Hamilton was a notorious pot smoker and was one of the hardest working Giants ever. Practically the entire NBA smokes pot and a lot of guys are workout maniacs.
The bottom line is two players working hard should be noted - but not as being some sort of outlier or extraordinary event.
The few games I watched Floyd, he really didn't show much....he did have two sacks I saw, where the qb was running away from someone right into Floyd.....
Unfortunately, that's all I got...
Young guys like Flowers 23 and Hart 22 (think about how young, there are rookies like Bisnotway age 24 older then either ofthese 3rd year players, and you have a "formula" for improvement. I also think Fluker will finally step up and challenge at OG, giving us depth.
So long as Rhett Ellison's calf isn't an issue and he's an effective blocker; so long as Hart and Flowers step up to "middle of the pack"; so long as Pugh finally puts 16 healthy, strong games together; and, so long as Richburg learned at Bentley's camp this off-season and brings the joy we'll be fine. The OL just has to be "NFL average" for our offense to produce. If it really does gel year #2 and is better than average (say 10th to 12th range rather than 14th to 17th middle) we'll be dynamite with our weapons and TE blocking help.
As for the draft, it wasn't a great one for OLmen......We needed a TE....we were basically forced to choose Tomlinson with Hankins gone.....I thought they would go OL or S/CB in the third round, but instead they went for Webb......
Most of BBI think he is the future......I would have used that pick, to play for now....
As for the draft, it wasn't a great one for OLmen......We needed a TE....we were basically forced to choose Tomlinson with Hankins gone.....I thought they would go OL or S/CB in the third round, but instead they went for Webb......
Most of BBI think he is the future......I would have used that pick, to play for now....
Asking a 3rd round pick to play for now? If the Giants got Eli's replacement with 3rd rd pick, then they beat the curve. By next year he will be cheaper than Geno and Josh.
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all that was there in free agency, was way overpriced, and our cap was tight.....
As for the draft, it wasn't a great one for OLmen......We needed a TE....we were basically forced to choose Tomlinson with Hankins gone.....I thought they would go OL or S/CB in the third round, but instead they went for Webb......
Most of BBI think he is the future......I would have used that pick, to play for now....
Asking a 3rd round pick to play for now? If the Giants got Eli's replacement with 3rd rd pick, then they beat the curve. By next year he will be cheaper than Geno and Josh.
But if Webb isn't the bonafide #2 next year with no #3 (unless we draft a QB next year as well....) I'd be upset.
My brother and I were discussing QB Webb and he said he was a college transfer cause he couldn't beat out the other guy ahead of him. I believe that was the case but that doesn't mean Webb, with the big arm, big heart, smarts and solid frame can't be the answer down the road.
When you see a QB you like, you take him over a DB which is the position of the most depth in this year's draft I do believe. You take a QB you like in any draft despite the depth you may or may not have. That is how I come out.
The minute Webb realized it, he transferred because he wanted to play so bad, and threw for 4300 yards and 37 TDs at Cal while enrolled in masters classes. Now he's here.
A snippet from the article linked below:
“My dad called me every name in the book,” Sonny Dykes said of his 78-year-old father, the second winningest coach in Red Raiders history. “He was like, ‘If you don’t try to get this guy, you’re the biggest moron on the face of the Earth.’”
How Texas Tech transfer Davis Webb ended up at Cal - ( New Window )
every team in the league has been scrambling to upgrade thier OL its why so many teams have moved up to draft them in recent years the demand and a very small pool of top tier talent at the position in a poor OL year they still managed to get fluker,bisnowaty,dunker and wheeler to upgrade the depth
if they do in fact add a fullback plus the blocking TE that will help in obvious running situations ,vereen needs to hold onto the ball better far too many fumbles before his injury last year, added to perkins and gallman the arrow is pointing up in the run game
but the biggest improvement comes in the receiving corp when they line up with OBJ,marshall,shepard and engram with either perkins or vereen in the back field that looks like a helluva ask for any defence to cover,ironically the giants are one of the few teams that cold deal with that assuming all the starters in the secondary are fit or course
getting goodson in at MB and possibly darian thompson in at free safety or nat berhe staying healthy the defence could and probably will be better than it already was too
The minute Webb realized it, he transferred because he wanted to play so bad, and threw for 4300 yards and 37 TDs at Cal while enrolled in masters classes. Now he's here.
A snippet from the article linked below:
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Spike Dykes tries not to advise his son, Sonny, on how to run Cal’s football program. But in December, when Texas Tech quarterback Davis Webb announced his intention to transfer, the elder Dykes couldn’t resist.
“My dad called me every name in the book,” Sonny Dykes said of his 78-year-old father, the second winningest coach in Red Raiders history. “He was like, ‘If you don’t try to get this guy, you’re the biggest moron on the face of the Earth.’”
How Texas Tech transfer Davis Webb ended up at Cal - ( New Window )
All that said - I have no idea why Davis Webb wasn't a 1st round QB. Look at the QBs drafted in the 1st round the last several years: Webb fits right in. Great size, and good mobility for it. Has that Rodgers-esque ability to throw from any arm angle and be pinpoint. Great work ethic. World class arm (I believe he threw the highest mph of any QB at the Combine in the last few years.) Highly productive for 2 different programs. By all accounts, great teammate. Lives and breathes football.
How this guy ended up in the 3rd round, I have no idea, but I think we're extremely fortunate. Compare him side by side to Trubisky and even Jared Goff - who would you rather have? Trubisky was a 1-hit wonder while Webb proved himself with 3 solid years and even played as a true freshman at TT. Both carry the same "spread" question marks but it was Webb who (of course) maniacally worked out with Jim Zorn in the offseason to learn WCO footwork.
I like Webb better than any QB in this class and I believe he will prove me right, as he's already said he would.