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NFT: Knicks Chat 7/14/2017- One Stop Shopping

DanMetroMan : 7/14/2017 7:08 am
1- The Knicks working to hire Scott Perry from the Kings. The deal is NOT yet completed (pending $$$ compensation talks with the Kings per Woj) "Everyone" is praising the move. Perry is considered a high quality person with 17 years of experience and credited with the Kings off-season (which most people are praising).

2- The Knicks are pausing talks with the Rockets and Cavs and may try and convince him to "want" to stay

3- Rondo in talks with the Pelicans

4- Not Knicks related but Lonzo continues to blow people away, DSJ as well.

5-Sergio Rodriguez close to heading back to Europe
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Part of the problem at MSG  
Ten Ton Hammer : 7/14/2017 3:45 pm : link
is the structure. So not getting to clean house is big and suggests more of the same.

A lot of cooks in the kitchen, some of which are long-timers who are the eyes and ears of the owner, so he can continue to pretend that he's now hands-off.
RE: RE: well see  
LS : 7/14/2017 3:57 pm : link
In comment 13528251 TyreeHelmet said:
Quote:
In comment 13528195 djm said:


Quote:


I hate getting into all these labels. Franchise player and great player and max player...whatever. Frenchy has a chance to be the floor general this franchise has been looking for since Walt Frazier. I want a floor general. A guy that defends and makes the team go. Call that what you will but Frenchy has a good chance to be a legit PG. And yes, NYC will eat that up. I remember when Mark Jackson set this town on fire. Frenchy could be even better.

I don't care about Franchise players. I want a great PG. An underrated PG. Gimme that over the Marbury types any day of the week.



Walt Frazier? If Frank had the potential to be Walt Frazier he would have been the first pick in the draft. "Intangibles and leadership" is nice but talent wins in the NBA. Outside of his length, what does Frank do better than DSJ, Monk or Mitchell? No one describes him as this raw explosive athlete.

I get most people don't like Marbury but he was an awesome nba talent. If Frank ever averages 20 and 9, that pick is a home run. But is anyone projecting that for him? Sure seems like his potential is more of a role player. I would have rather swung for the fences with DSJ, Monk or Mitchell. I hope I'm wrong though.

Well, Walt Frazier had the potential of Walt Frazier and he wasn't the first pick in the NBA draft.
Frazier  
DanMetroMan : 7/14/2017 4:01 pm : link
was obviously before my time, why exactly was his prime so short? Looks like from 23-27 he was an animal and then he declined from 28 on, did he get hurt? Father time? Or just a matter of the stats back then not being able to account for his game?
RE: Frazier  
TyreeHelmet : 7/14/2017 4:24 pm : link
In comment 13528459 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
was obviously before my time, why exactly was his prime so short? Looks like from 23-27 he was an animal and then he declined from 28 on, did he get hurt? Father time? Or just a matter of the stats back then not being able to account for his game?


Before my time too but I know he dealt with bad foot fractures and injuries they struggled to solve/heal late in his career. Also sounds like it ended pretty messy with the Knicks. They paid a portion of salary to Cleveland and really wanted him gone.
Those Clyde sneakers have less cushion than a pair of sandals.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 7/14/2017 4:25 pm : link
.
RE: Part of the problem at MSG  
Deej : 7/14/2017 4:49 pm : link
In comment 13528446 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
is the structure. So not getting to clean house is big and suggests more of the same.

A lot of cooks in the kitchen, some of which are long-timers who are the eyes and ears of the owner, so he can continue to pretend that he's now hands-off.


Now Mills has a fall guy if/when things go south.
RE: Part of the problem at MSG  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 7/14/2017 5:13 pm : link
In comment 13528446 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
is the structure. So not getting to clean house is big and suggests more of the same.

A lot of cooks in the kitchen, some of which are long-timers who are the eyes and ears of the owner, so he can continue to pretend that he's now hands-off.


Where does this place exist in professional sports where the owner lets major things happen with no input? Every single person in this particular sport who has "final say on personnel matters" answers to the owner at some point.

I'm not saying you in particular, but people can't have it both ways... bitching about the owner doing a show during the draft (for example), then saying he's pretending to be hands-off. If they pick a coach or trade a major player, the owner of EVERY team is going to be involved. However, he's not picking between Dennis Smith Jr. and Frank Ntilikina.
Orlando  
DanMetroMan : 7/14/2017 5:22 pm : link
lands Simmons, 3 for 20. Steal.
Might as well trade our last 2 for Hezonja  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 7/14/2017 5:31 pm : link
...
RE: Orlando  
TyreeHelmet : 7/14/2017 5:49 pm : link
In comment 13528522 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
lands Simmons, 3 for 20. Steal.


Hardaway contract day looks worse every passing day. Could have come away with Simmons, Clark and either Sergio or Rondo all for less years than what Hardaway got.

Why not take multiple fliers and land a vet PG?
THJR and Simmons arent that comparable  
Deej : 7/14/2017 6:40 pm : link
one is much young, and is a better player. Simmons shooting issues limit him to a bench role.

I may eat my words on this, but I think he's going to fade into relative anonymity. Role players always get too much hype on great teams.

Magic have some interesting long athletes. It's a shame what their old GM did in an effort to save his job.
RE: Woj/Begs combo platter  
twostepgiants : 7/14/2017 6:46 pm : link

So basically Perry can draft whoever he wants in the 2nd round

In comment 13528410 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
While Mills will hold ultimate authority in the front office, Perry will be afforded tremendous freedom to operate as he chooses, league sources said. He will be the day-to-day voice running the basketball side.

New York has been searching for a GM who won't push for an overhaul of the front-office staff, league sources said, as well as an executive who can coexist with Mills, who will have ultimate authority.
DOLAN  
Canton : 7/14/2017 6:54 pm : link
Quote:
"Today marks a culture change for our organization where we reestablish the pride, work ethic and responsibility that comes with playing for the Knicks and representing New York," Knicks owner Jim Dolan said in a statement announcing the hires, the terms of which were undisclosed. "I'm confident that Steve is the right person to take on this role, and ensure that we return to one of the elite teams of the NBA. He's got an ambitious plan that centers on building a young team focused on player development, communication and teamwork."

Link - ( New Window )
news conference on Monday  
Canton : 7/14/2017 6:55 pm : link
.
MILLS  
Canton : 7/14/2017 6:56 pm : link
Quote:
"Today is a new day for this franchise," Mills said in the news release. "Scott will immediately begin to put together a basketball operations department that is among the best in the league. We will all be united in implementing our strategy, which is to build our team by developing young players, emphasizing athleticism, length and defense. We have several rising young stars in the organization and we expect to add more young talent to this core. Our message to our fans is clear: we will be disciplined in sticking to this strategy, hold our players and staff accountable to the high standards that we have set for ourselves, and deliver results."
And lastly  
Canton : 7/14/2017 7:04 pm : link
Dolan

Quote:
James Dolan says that 'as Steve (Mills) and Scott (Perry) move forward, I will continue to not be involved in the operations of the team.
Frank  
GMEN46 : 7/14/2017 7:47 pm : link
Frank has a chance to be a solid NBA player, he has absolutely no chance of being a 'superstar' or number 1 guy on a team because he does not have skill that he is Excellent at. Does everything good but nothing great and he is an average athlete. Will Likely have to play 2 guard becaus ehe has a very average handle,, should be a solid defender. Hopefully clue ends up being a solid 3 or 4 guy on a team and hopefully smith, Mitchell and monk end up sucking
I think we should see Frank play for a couple of years.  
Del Shofner : 7/14/2017 7:50 pm : link
A lot of teams had him ranked in the top 10 or so from what I read. They must have seen something they liked.

Not saying anyone here is wrong, just a matter of insufficient evidence.

Opinion on Frank  
Samiam : 7/14/2017 7:52 pm : link
I'm curious about how many people, who posted about Frank can and cannot do and what he will or will not become in the future, have seen the guy play in person or on tv. For this purpose, youtube doesn't count. Has anybody here seen a game he's played?
I have no idea what Frank will do, but I don't know how  
steve in ky : 7/14/2017 8:06 pm : link
anyone can say they know this at this point. Even the best scouts can't be absolute about draft prospects.


Quote:

Frank has a chance to be a solid NBA player, he has absolutely no chance of being a 'superstar'
RE: I have no idea what Frank will do, but I don't know how  
djm : 7/14/2017 8:47 pm : link
In comment 13528642 steve in ky said:
Quote:
anyone can say they know this at this point. Even the best scouts can't be absolute about draft prospects.




Quote:



Frank has a chance to be a solid NBA player, he has absolutely no chance of being a 'superstar'



They can't say it. I am swinging for the fences with Frank. I don't necessarily think it's a safe pick at all. I wouldn't like it if it was safe.

RE: RE: Part of the problem at MSG  
Ten Ton Hammer : 7/14/2017 11:07 pm : link
In comment 13528520 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
Quote:
In comment 13528446 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


is the structure. So not getting to clean house is big and suggests more of the same.

A lot of cooks in the kitchen, some of which are long-timers who are the eyes and ears of the owner, so he can continue to pretend that he's now hands-off.



Where does this place exist in professional sports where the owner lets major things happen with no input? Every single person in this particular sport who has "final say on personnel matters" answers to the owner at some point.

I'm not saying you in particular, but people can't have it both ways... bitching about the owner doing a show during the draft (for example), then saying he's pretending to be hands-off. If they pick a coach or trade a major player, the owner of EVERY team is going to be involved. However, he's not picking between Dennis Smith Jr. and Frank Ntilikina.


When I say hands-off, I don't mean input on big money moves. That's part of sports.

Not hiring a general manager because you wouldn't allow him to decide who works in the front office he's allegedly going to be in charge of, that's what I'm talking about. Continuing to go forward with this bizarre, secretive, and wildly ineffective organizational structure that holds over the same cast of known-owner friendly cronies through failed regime after failed regime and then having the balls to conduct business in a totally adversarial relationship with the media, allowing your interim GM to spend 30 million dollars more than the bidding price for a middling free agent and then not even taking questions on why such a thing would be allowed to happen, that's what I'm talking about. Picking up Phil Jackson's option years when he didn't do anything to deserve it, then firing him two weeks later after being allowed to determine the draft pick, that's what I'm talking about.
Perry  
Canton : 7/14/2017 11:46 pm : link
Quote:
New Knicks GM Scott Perry talks about developing a culture in New York: "It is an honor to be joining Steve (Mills), Jeff (Hornacek) and the New York Knicks as we begin a new chapter for this beloved franchise. I am excited for the opportunity and the responsibility bestowed upon me," Perry said in a statement. "As general manager, I will work tirelessly to develop a culture that demands results, commitment and pride from everyone fortunate enough to be associated with our team - from our staff to our players. Nothing comes close to Madison Square Garden for basketball and it is our right and responsibility to showcase that tradition of excellence, day and night. I can't wait to get started."
Ten Ton - can't say you are wrong about any of that.  
Del Shofner : 7/14/2017 11:56 pm : link
I'm hoping that Perry's hire is somewhat like George Young's hire when the Giants had the same problems back when. Actually, the Giants' problems were worse than the Knicks' in those days. The league stepped in and made a "suggestion" that the team followed.

But that may just be wishful thinking ...
RE: RE: RE: Part of the problem at MSG  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 7/15/2017 5:59 am : link
In comment 13528758 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:



When I say hands-off, I don't mean input on big money moves. That's part of sports.

Not hiring a general manager because you wouldn't allow him to decide who works in the front office he's allegedly going to be in charge of, that's what I'm talking about. Continuing to go forward with this bizarre, secretive, and wildly ineffective organizational structure that holds over the same cast of known-owner friendly cronies through failed regime after failed regime and then having the balls to conduct business in a totally adversarial relationship with the media, allowing your interim GM to spend 30 million dollars more than the bidding price for a middling free agent and then not even taking questions on why such a thing would be allowed to happen, that's what I'm talking about. Picking up Phil Jackson's option years when he didn't do anything to deserve it, then firing him two weeks later after being allowed to determine the draft pick, that's what I'm talking about.


I don't give a rat's ass about their relationship with the media. The "known owner cronies" thing doesn't matter because those guys haven't been making the decisions until now. They were all beneath Phil in the pecking order. Mills was close to Isiah, but was still beneath him in the pecking order. There's no evidence they were calling shots instead of Donnie Walsh (although Dolan commandeered the Melo trade). What's the purpose of complaining about Allan Houston when he had no power? Mills may have been a "Dolan spy", but with the exception of not being able to hire Rambis full-time, Phil got to do whatever the fuck he wanted anyway. The cronies weren't the ones causing issues with Melo or annoying KP. The cronies didn't decide to draft Jordan Hill or Michael Sweetney. The cronies didn't have the authority to give STAT his awful contract. IMO, that's something people complain about with this franchise because they're going to complain about everything.

David Griffin wouldn't do the job with those restrictions, but there are plenty of people who will. It didn't take long to find a guy who would. And Griffin isn't exactly Red Auerbach. There are/were plenty of coaches willing to do the job with Phil standing over their shoulder.

ITA that the new person should've made the decision on THJ and it would've been better to fire Phil before the draft. The problem is the first of the two things that led to Phil's dismissal reached DEFCON 1 just a few days before the draft while the second and most publicly used reason for the dismissal happened after the draft (Melo buy-out). I hated the THJ signing. I wouldn't have drafted Frank either. At this point, I feel like people are just complaining about anything this team does now regardless of it's importance.
shockey, I don't agree with you. Having scouts that you trust  
yatqb : 7/15/2017 6:29 am : link
is critical for any sports team, and if Griffin wanted to bring in his assistant and was denied the ability to, it says a lot about how much authority he has, and how much trust Dolan gives guys like Mills and Houston as opposed to him. Even Jackson was only allowed to bring in one guy, Gaines. That's nuts. To pay a guy $60M and then tie his hands to ANY extent is ridiculous, unless you want him as the front man and the guy to take the heat, while you unintentionally sabotage his efforts at the same time.

I can't defend the job PJ did, but I also can't say one thing nice about Dolan, who has brought shit to the team for two decades: from the Layden era, to IT's reign, to his blowing of the Melo trade when he undercut Walsh, to the Jackson years. The man's a paranoid and narcissistic control freak who plays with his toy however he wants, and only listens to his yes men.
Hardaway and Simmons  
Ira : 7/15/2017 7:12 am : link
On ESPN's real plus minus, Hardaway is listed as the 15th best shooting guard and Simmons the 35th.
Summer league is more of a negative indicator than a positive one.  
Ira : 7/15/2017 7:16 am : link
What I mean by that is that the level of competition is poor. If a high draft pick has problems in summer league, that's a very bad sign. If he plays well in summer league, wait and see.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Part of the problem at MSG  
Ten Ton Hammer : 7/15/2017 8:06 am : link
In comment 13528789 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
Quote:
In comment 13528758 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:





When I say hands-off, I don't mean input on big money moves. That's part of sports.

Not hiring a general manager because you wouldn't allow him to decide who works in the front office he's allegedly going to be in charge of, that's what I'm talking about. Continuing to go forward with this bizarre, secretive, and wildly ineffective organizational structure that holds over the same cast of known-owner friendly cronies through failed regime after failed regime and then having the balls to conduct business in a totally adversarial relationship with the media, allowing your interim GM to spend 30 million dollars more than the bidding price for a middling free agent and then not even taking questions on why such a thing would be allowed to happen, that's what I'm talking about. Picking up Phil Jackson's option years when he didn't do anything to deserve it, then firing him two weeks later after being allowed to determine the draft pick, that's what I'm talking about.



I don't give a rat's ass about their relationship with the media. The "known owner cronies" thing doesn't matter because those guys haven't been making the decisions until now. They were all beneath Phil in the pecking order. Mills was close to Isiah, but was still beneath him in the pecking order. There's no evidence they were calling shots instead of Donnie Walsh (although Dolan commandeered the Melo trade). What's the purpose of complaining about Allan Houston when he had no power? Mills may have been a "Dolan spy", but with the exception of not being able to hire Rambis full-time, Phil got to do whatever the fuck he wanted anyway. The cronies weren't the ones causing issues with Melo or annoying KP. The cronies didn't decide to draft Jordan Hill or Michael Sweetney. The cronies didn't have the authority to give STAT his awful contract. IMO, that's something people complain about with this franchise because they're going to complain about everything.

David Griffin wouldn't do the job with those restrictions, but there are plenty of people who will. It didn't take long to find a guy who would. And Griffin isn't exactly Red Auerbach. There are/were plenty of coaches willing to do the job with Phil standing over their shoulder.

ITA that the new person should've made the decision on THJ and it would've been better to fire Phil before the draft. The problem is the first of the two things that led to Phil's dismissal reached DEFCON 1 just a few days before the draft while the second and most publicly used reason for the dismissal happened after the draft (Melo buy-out). I hated the THJ signing. I wouldn't have drafted Frank either. At this point, I feel like people are just complaining about anything this team does now regardless of it's importance.


We don't know who's making decisions or who has input in what. I'm not sure why you seem so confident to know all that, but nobody else can say with any certainty exactly what Steve Mills or Allan Houston's roles are or their qualification are to be untouchable. And the media thing matters in the sense that this team bumbles from one fuck up to the next without ever even having to answer a single question about anything.

The fact that there's tons of holdovers from years of failure and strong resistance to any kind of staffing change is pretty obviously a poor way to go about business. Even the Giants, as patiently conservative as they are, don't keep running into a wall for two decades. They don't have the credibility to hire an accomplished GM and tell him he cannot have his own staff.
Rajon Rondo to the Pelicans  
Anakim : 7/15/2017 11:47 am : link
Shams Charania‏Verified account @ShamsCharania
Free agent Rajon Rondo has reached agreement on a one-year deal with the New Orleans Pelicans, league sources tell The Vertical
RE: Summer league is more of a negative indicator than a positive one.  
Jim in Fairfax : 7/15/2017 12:23 pm : link
In comment 13528795 Ira said:
Quote:
What I mean by that is that the level of competition is poor. If a high draft pick has problems in summer league, that's a very bad sign. If he plays well in summer league, wait and see.

Exhibit A: Chasson Randle
RE: Rajon Rondo to the Pelicans  
Enzo : 7/15/2017 12:25 pm : link
In comment 13528853 Anakim said:
Quote:
Shams Charania‏Verified account @ShamsCharania
Free agent Rajon Rondo has reached agreement on a one-year deal with the New Orleans Pelicans, league sources tell The Vertical

getting closer and closer to a Brandon Jennings reunion.

But I'm getting nervous that Rose is still out there.
i wouldnt mind jennings  
nygiants16 : 7/15/2017 12:29 pm : link
at this ppint almost rather just throw ntlikina to the fire...

i dont think rose is taking vet minimum
I'd rather play Randle than sign Rose  
Ten Ton Hammer : 7/15/2017 12:42 pm : link
Screw that guy.
Jennings was awful last year for both the Knicks and Bucks.  
Meats and Cheeses : 7/15/2017 12:50 pm : link
He's always been a shoot first point guard, but he's lost his explosion since his Achilles injury. He won't be a Knick.
Sorry, I meant Wizards.  
Meats and Cheeses : 7/15/2017 12:51 pm : link
Nt
Speaking of rebuilding  
Anakim : 7/15/2017 2:12 pm : link
Lots of young guys are out there for the taking:

Jordan Mickey (who I REALLY hope we claim), Michael Gbinije, Georges Niang, Rakeem Christmas, Stephen Zimmerman (who I'd MUCH rather have than Marshall Plumlee)...
I'd rather sign Trey Burke than Jennings or Rose  
Anakim : 7/15/2017 2:53 pm : link
.
RE: I'd rather sign Trey Burke than Jennings or Rose  
Anakim : 7/15/2017 4:22 pm : link
In comment 13528908 Anakim said:
Quote:
.


*Or Tyler Ennis


I think Ennis or Burke would be better at this point than Brandon Knight, Derrick Rose, Deron Williams, Brandon Jennings, etc.
Something tells me  
TommyWiseau : 7/15/2017 4:40 pm : link
Perry isn't dumb enough to bring in Rose. We need someone who's going to get KP involved early and often. Too bad we could not land Rubio, he would have been a perfect fit
Portland wants to deal for Melo Per Woj  
Reeses Pieces : 7/15/2017 9:17 pm : link
1. Would Melo waive his NTC tp play with Dame/CJ and no one else? I highly doubt it.

2. If the goal is to get younger, could they get a haul like Crabbe, Harkless, Vonleh and Collins for Melo and O'Quinn?
I would take  
Jon in NYC : 7/15/2017 9:22 pm : link
back Leonard if they added Collins.

Harkless, Leonard, Collins for Melo?
RE: Rajon Rondo to the Pelicans  
djm : 7/15/2017 9:44 pm : link
In comment 13528853 Anakim said:
Quote:
Shams Charania‏Verified account @ShamsCharania
Free agent Rajon Rondo has reached agreement on a one-year deal with the New Orleans Pelicans, league sources tell The Vertical


That to me is one of the more interesting moves this offseason.
It will take Frank a couple years to develop  
eightshamrocks : 7/16/2017 10:15 am : link
But to me, there is no doubt it was the correct pick. I just watched two highlight videos, one of Frank, and one if Smith Jr.-while Smith I'd an incedible athlete, it's also clear that he us basically another Stephon Marbury. We all know how well that worked out for the Knicks. I am so glad Frank was the pick-the Knicks need a pg of the future who will play D, hit three's, and will pass the ball. Smith can score and shoot, but no way in hell does he pass enough, or play good defense. At least Phil got us Porzingus and Frank, two players who I believe will eventually help bring a championship to New York.
Hypothetical trade  
GMEN46 : 7/16/2017 10:30 am : link
Assuming Melo magically agrees to go to Portland b cause Knicks aren't satisfied with Houston or Cleveland offers. knowing the Knicks cap space is disastrous for the next 3-4 years, would you make this trade:

Portland gets:
Melo
Courtney Lee

Knicks get:
2019 unprotected #1st Rd
2021 unprotected 1sr Rd
2019 2nd Rd from Lakers
Moe Harkless
Myles Leonard
Evan Turner

Obviously 2 of the 3 players they are getting are worthless, but the contracts expire at same time as Noah and Lance Thomas. Additionally assuming Portland will be good in 2018, Melo def leaves after 2018 so prob not as good in 2019 so pick could be better lottery pick. knicks can obviously make the future picks or they can be used with any of these terrible expiring contracts in 2019 to package for a team that is starting a rebuild that has a talented player locked in for a few years.

I know big hypothetical, but I'm assuming Portland would at least consider this offer to get rid of all of the awful contracts and pick up 2 pretty good pieces to add to a pretty talented team. With Melo and Courtney Lee I'm assuming Portland is a top 5 in the west?

Best team for melo  
ADeP7 : 7/16/2017 10:55 am : link
I think best team if it were feasible would be to get traded to New Orleans
Roll out a lineup of

Rondo
Holiday
Melo
Davis
Cousins

I Like that better than

Paul
Harden
Ariza
Melo
Capella
I'm no cap expert  
BigBlueShock : 7/16/2017 11:03 am : link
But Melo to New Orleans has to be absolutely impossible. Aren't they like $14 Million over the cap BEFORE signing Rondo?

Not happening
RE: I'm no cap expert  
ADeP7 : 7/16/2017 11:05 am : link
In comment 13529300 BigBlueShock said:
Quote:
But Melo to New Orleans has to be absolutely impossible. Aren't they like $14 Million over the cap BEFORE signing Rondo?

Not happening



Oh I know it wouldn't happen. I don't think they have anything we'd want anyway. That team has massive boom or bust potential though. Just think it'd be an awesome potential lineup to watch
RE: RE: I'd rather sign Trey Burke than Jennings or Rose  
Anakim : 7/16/2017 11:58 am : link
In comment 13528936 Anakim said:
Quote:
In comment 13528908 Anakim said:


Quote:


.



*Or Tyler Ennis


I think Ennis or Burke would be better at this point than Brandon Knight, Derrick Rose, Deron Williams, Brandon Jennings, etc.



Add Demetrius Jackson to that list
i mean NO can make the salary part work..  
Italianju : 7/16/2017 12:05 pm : link
problem is all the players are crap and they dont have anything else to offer.

As for that POR deal i dont trust that those picks would be anywhere near good enough to take on 2 horrible contracts and a descent one. They would need to give way more.
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