is 20/20 but when that 20/20 hindsight shows the GM was wrong, multiple times, it doesn't excuse it.
I'm just passing along articles and sentiment from Panthers fan/beat writers.
see link below Link - ( New Window )
That article is a bunch of crap. Lots of vets complain when they are forced out, and still of some productive years left. The cost of keeping them isn't worth it. Fans down there are stupid if they don't realize how a modern NFL team has to be run.
is 20/20 but when that 20/20 hindsight shows the GM was wrong, multiple times, it doesn't excuse it.
I'm just passing along articles and sentiment from Panthers fan/beat writers.
see link below Link - ( New Window )
That article is a bunch of crap. Lots of vets complain when they are forced out, and still of some productive years left. The cost of keeping them isn't worth it. Fans down there are stupid if they don't realize how a modern NFL team has to be run.
Don't shoot the messenger, I was summarizing points about potential reasons he was fired from the articles linked.
RE: Playoffs 3 of 4 years and a SB under his watch
This is why some of you should really question what you're wishing for sometimes, canning a guy after a short tenure like that when it was mostly successful is damaging to an organization. There is value in continuity.
who did he piss off? A couple of aging veterans who wanted to be paid like they were stars in the prime of their careers. Josh Norman was asking for an astronomical contract coming off 1 good year where he played in a system that protected him. Can you say Nnamdi Asomugha? BB jettisons Chandler Jones because he knows they couldn't pay him. DG doing the same with Ealy. Better to get value than watch him walk in FA. That's called being smart and making the tough decision.
Everyone seemed to be on the same page regarding Norman, but rivera has been undermining Gettlemen since then saying he wasn't provided adequate CB's once the Norman move was made and openly questioned the long-term plan to solve a short-term issue.
Gettleman has played hardball with some of the vets which isn't sitting well and doesn't play well in the press when they make it look like he isn't rewarding them for their past play.
I've like his moves. To me, Rivera is a bigger problem since he seems to want to throw others under the bus.
think Gettlemen getting fired is either a vote of confidence or a slam against Reese.
This has to do more with Richardson siding with Rivera more than gettleman. I don't think it reflects on the true job Gettleman has done, and frankly, I think the Pantehrs will be worse off for it. On top of it, the guy who would be a great replacement left earlier in the offseason to take the GM position with Buffalo.
The Panthers were in cap hell. He let go of some good players who are near the end and that leaves him the scapegoat. They still made it to the Superbowl without Steve Smith & Deangelo Williams so they had no impact on team success.
discussion this AM on Charlotte sports radio basically saying that Richardson is very loyal to rivera and sees him almost as family, with the implied message that he will take Rivera over anyone else in a dispute.
During the SB run, Richardson is on record believing that Rivera was the driving force, even though he's made several decisions that have been second-guessed. Basically everything he did two years ago turned out great and then last year, not so much.
And on the loyalty slant, Richardson didn't like seeing the veterans leave, but if you look at it, the timing of having Smith and Williams leave was good - especially from a cap standpoint. People forget that Williams' last two years here he was often injured (as was Stewart), leaving chances for several younger players but at the expense of the running game. The Panthers also went to the SB after Williams and Smith departed.
In the end, Gettlemen might actually have been canned for the perception he may part ways with Thomas Davis soon, and that is one of Richardson's favorite guys. Gettleman also has been playing hardball with Olsen.
discussion this AM on Charlotte sports radio basically saying that Richardson is very loyal to rivera and sees him almost as family, with the implied message that he will take Rivera over anyone else in a dispute.
During the SB run, Richardson is on record believing that Rivera was the driving force, even though he's made several decisions that have been second-guessed. Basically everything he did two years ago turned out great and then last year, not so much.
And on the loyalty slant, Richardson didn't like seeing the veterans leave, but if you look at it, the timing of having Smith and Williams leave was good - especially from a cap standpoint. People forget that Williams' last two years here he was often injured (as was Stewart), leaving chances for several younger players but at the expense of the running game. The Panthers also went to the SB after Williams and Smith departed.
In the end, Gettlemen might actually have been canned for the perception he may part ways with Thomas Davis soon, and that is one of Richardson's favorite guys. Gettleman also has been playing hardball with Olsen.
Iirc, when many were bashing Reese and extolling the talent-acquiring virtues(though many of his core were already in place there) of Gettleman, you were essentially saying that Gettleman was BBI's newest flavor of the month, that DG could do no wrong (paraphrasing)..You certainly hit that one up the alley
regarding the Panthers is that they have never had back to back winning seasons, yet they are often lauded by several members of BBI.
Through having John Fox, Steve Smith, DeAngelo Williams, Cam Newton, Josh Norman, Ron Rivera, etc. - They have NEVER had back-to-back winning seasons!
Just think about that the next time people m ake a comment about how easy it is to win in the NFL or lamenting why the Giants are serially in the playoffs like other teams are (the Panthers being one that's often mentioned)
There is clearly no love-lost between former Carolina players
and Gettleman. They have publicly criticized him as to his overall process of contract extensions, re-signings and releases while he has been GM. While this isn't unusual on its face for players and GMs in any sport, but maybe Gettleman goes beyond the usual negotiation unpleasantries and is truly disingenuous in his words and dealings.
Nevertheless, Richardson has the right to do what he thinks is in the best interest of the franchise. And this firing only leads you to believe that Gettleman has been warned as to how he ran these processes in the past, but it continued and Richardson finally said "enough".
Looking at the relatively good success the team has had under Gettleman though cannot be ignored. I am not close enough to that teams' business to know if he should actually get the credit based on his timing with the team. But if he is even partially responsible, then it falls back to Richardson as to what may be more important to how his team is run - wins or relationships...
I didn't totally discredit Gettleman but I always found it odd that he was receiving so much praise in 2015 when the majority of the impact players on the team that year were not acquired or drafted on his watch.
I thought he did a couple of solid things, but Gettleman had nothing to do with Newton, Olsen, Thomas Davis, Norman, Kuechly, Johnson, or Khalil.. which was the nucleus most responsible for that teams success.
I view this as a good thing for the Giants. They had a good amount of success under Gettleman's watch. He took them to a SB 2 short years ago. This is great news.
And as much as I like DeAngelo Williams, I don't think he has to worry about scratching teams off of his 'list.' It's a week from training camp, and he's on the unemployment line..
I didn't totally discredit Gettleman but I always found it odd that he was receiving so much praise in 2015 when the majority of the impact players on the team that year were not acquired or drafted on his watch.
I thought he did a couple of solid things, but Gettleman had nothing to do with Newton, Olsen, Thomas Davis, Norman, Kuechly, Johnson, or Khalil.. which was the nucleus most responsible for that teams success.
Doesn't this illustrate the importance of the meat of the roster? Players 11-53 and not 1-10. I give Gettleman a ton of credit for doing well there. Gettleman also deserves credit for keeping the coach.
I never bought into the idea Gettleman was better than Reese - I didn't think we had enough data for that. I was very critical of Reese a couple years back, but thought he's done a good job the past two off-season.
Your general point, though, is why I held off on being as high on Reese as others have - he was given a coach and QB for his two SB runs.
I didn't totally discredit Gettleman but I always found it odd that he was receiving so much praise in 2015 when the majority of the impact players on the team that year were not acquired or drafted on his watch.
I thought he did a couple of solid things, but Gettleman had nothing to do with Newton, Olsen, Thomas Davis, Norman, Kuechly, Johnson, or Khalil.. which was the nucleus most responsible for that teams success.
Doesn't this illustrate the importance of the meat of the roster? Players 11-53 and not 1-10. I give Gettleman a ton of credit for doing well there. Gettleman also deserves credit for keeping the coach.
I never bought into the idea Gettleman was better than Reese - I didn't think we had enough data for that. I was very critical of Reese a couple years back, but thought he's done a good job the past two off-season.
Your general point, though, is why I held off on being as high on Reese as others have - he was given a coach and QB for his two SB runs.
He did a nice job to a degree - I just questioned how much credit he really deserved when literally 5-10 of their most impactful players were not acquired or drafted by him. It's easier to supplement top tier talent than find it.
Reese probably got/gets a little too much credit for the 2007 Giants because Accorsi was the guy who signed/drafted the vast majority of the impact players on that roster but it was hard to ignore how strong Reese's 2007 draft was, which certainly impacted the ultimate success that team had.
I think Jerry Reese has an excellent eye for talent and I think he was too hands-off around 2012-2014. I don't know for a fact how much less involved he was in certain processes but it almost seemed like after that 2nd SB, he felt like he could kind of just coast a bit.
Once he was on the hot seat for the poor drafts we had, it seemed like he got more involved in the process again and we seem to have drafted quite a bit better these last 2-3 years since.
Coughlin was obviously already in place when Reese took over GM duties - and I don't know how much say he had in choosing McAdoo to be the successor but I thought McAdoo did a really nice job of coaching this team to its strengths last year and so that appears to be another good decision made.
Reese has his warts. He has some crappy drafts and poor signings on his resume but he inked one of the best FA classes ever last year (probably the best in this team's history... I'd argue the 2016 signings were better overall than Accorsi's 2005 signings) and was responsible for drafting a generational talent in Beckham, trading up for one of the best young safeties in football in Collins and revamping a defense that went from the worst in all of football to arguably the best in just a 2 year span which I found quite impressive.
Is Reese the best GM in football? Probably not - but I trust him as a talent evaluator and think he's probably one of the better GM's in the league. He came through when he was on the hot seat and infused this team with a good deal of top-shelf talent so I think he does deserve credit for that.
I also thought he and the team got short-term oriented in 2013 and didn't retool quickly enough. And he's failed so far along the OL. I wonder if 2011 taught the team the wrong lessons along the OL and it took them too long to catch up.
I'm happy he's here.
Reese, if he now acknowledges that he is making the picks,
has improved with lots of $$$ help from the incompetent Maras. Like the look of this team. Just win thats what I am about. Genttleman is a talent IMO. Hire him back.
You don't have to like everything he does, but there are teams in this league that don't get much from their 1st and 2nd rounders, and that has fortunately not been a problem here.
that's the issue when people start ranking GM's. They like to put Reese down the pecking order, then have a really hard time trying to find 5-10 GM's consistently better than him.
Hell, most BBI'ers had Gettleman better than Reese, especially after 2015. A lot of people will put Atlanta's GM ahead.
I'd like to see which GM's have 2 SB rings and completely revamped one side of the ball to go from a last place unit to a top 5 unit in a year.
Gettleman and Reese together were fantastic. Reese was great in the draft department. Gettleman's forte was cap management, and FA pickups. We have been hurting in that department when he initially left, but have gotten way better the past 2 seasons.
His next two were okay at the top, netting starters at WR and OT in 2009, then DE and DT in 2010, but they also added little or no depth in the mid-to-late rounds.
2011 was pretty bad. Although Prince had some decent games (when he actually saw the field) and J-Will was a contributor on the championship team, there were simply way too many misses. 2012 was just a disaster.
2013 netted a couple of starters at the top again, at OL and DT, but...again...nothing in the mid-to-late rounds.
2014 was pretty damned good, with OBJ, Richburg, and Devon Kennard coming aboard. If Jay Bromley sticks and Nat Berhe can finally stay healthy, that's five out of seven picks contributing.
2015...well...our 1st and 7th round picks are starting at OT...for now. Landon Collins is an All-Pro, well worth the trade up to get him, and although Geremy Davis is gone and OO just might be, too, Mykkele Thompson is still hanging around.
Even though it might be a bit premature, I think you can put 2016 in the "outstanding" column, too. This year? We'll see, but the early returns are promising.
Ten drafts, three "outstanding" (and a possible fourth), one "pretty damned good," three okays, and two that were pretty lousy.
Not half as bad as some people make out (and it doesn't even include any UDFAs who became significant contributors, like Victor Cruz and Jake Ballard).
Along the way, Reese's free agent acquisitions have been a mixed bag, but guys like Rolle, Boley, Canty, Boothe, Tollefson, and Bernard did help put another Lombardi in the case, and of course signing Harrison, Vernon, Jenkins, and Robinson last year speaks for itself.
is 20/20 but when that 20/20 hindsight shows the GM was wrong, multiple times, it doesn't excuse it.
I'm just passing along articles and sentiment from Panthers fan/beat writers.
see link below Link - ( New Window )
Sure but the question isn't "Did the GM make mistakes?" it's did he make more mistakes than he should have? Or than other GM's or likely candidates would have?
If you demand perfection you are going to cycle through GM's awfully fast.
RE: Reese, if he now acknowledges that he is making the picks,
has improved with lots of $$$ help from the incompetent Maras. Like the look of this team. Just win thats what I am about. Genttleman is a talent IMO. Hire him back.
The people who said even a broken clock is right twice a day never met this guy.
Wasn't long ago that it seemed like everyone was singing his praises and saying he was a better GM than Reese, etc.
As well as claiming that any success the Giants have had during Reese's tenure was more Gettleman's doing than Jerry Reach.
I'm just passing along articles and sentiment from Panthers fan/beat writers.
see link below
Link - ( New Window )
Richardson is a loon. He'd rather have Josh Norman than win? (if that rumor is true)
Bizarre.
I'm just passing along articles and sentiment from Panthers fan/beat writers.
see link below Link - ( New Window )
That article is a bunch of crap. Lots of vets complain when they are forced out, and still of some productive years left. The cost of keeping them isn't worth it. Fans down there are stupid if they don't realize how a modern NFL team has to be run.
Quote:
is 20/20 but when that 20/20 hindsight shows the GM was wrong, multiple times, it doesn't excuse it.
I'm just passing along articles and sentiment from Panthers fan/beat writers.
see link below Link - ( New Window )
That article is a bunch of crap. Lots of vets complain when they are forced out, and still of some productive years left. The cost of keeping them isn't worth it. Fans down there are stupid if they don't realize how a modern NFL team has to be run.
Don't shoot the messenger, I was summarizing points about potential reasons he was fired from the articles linked.
Richardson is a loon. He'd rather have Josh Norman than win? (if that rumor is true)
Bizarre.
Don't know the entire story, but it seems to be they over-reacted.
While those mentioned players had productive careers, you have to manage the salary cap.
There is obviously something else going on there. Maybe he was a big asshole that no one could stand to work with or for.
Has to be more to the story.
Sincerely,
90% of Giant fans
I will drink to that. 😊😀😁
Everyone seemed to be on the same page regarding Norman, but rivera has been undermining Gettlemen since then saying he wasn't provided adequate CB's once the Norman move was made and openly questioned the long-term plan to solve a short-term issue.
Gettleman has played hardball with some of the vets which isn't sitting well and doesn't play well in the press when they make it look like he isn't rewarding them for their past play.
I've like his moves. To me, Rivera is a bigger problem since he seems to want to throw others under the bus.
Don't think we forgot who you were.
That Super Bowl team was all the previous GMs work. And the development of their QB
This has to do more with Richardson siding with Rivera more than gettleman. I don't think it reflects on the true job Gettleman has done, and frankly, I think the Pantehrs will be worse off for it. On top of it, the guy who would be a great replacement left earlier in the offseason to take the GM position with Buffalo.
We should do everything to bring Gettleman here to rehab his image now that Rivera and Cam have tarnished it.
Quote:
thought he'd get more time given he was only a year removed from a Super Bowl appearance
That Super Bowl team was all the previous GMs work. And the development of their QB
Wrong.. something like 40 of the players on that team were Gettleman's players. I saw that stat earlier today.
During the SB run, Richardson is on record believing that Rivera was the driving force, even though he's made several decisions that have been second-guessed. Basically everything he did two years ago turned out great and then last year, not so much.
And on the loyalty slant, Richardson didn't like seeing the veterans leave, but if you look at it, the timing of having Smith and Williams leave was good - especially from a cap standpoint. People forget that Williams' last two years here he was often injured (as was Stewart), leaving chances for several younger players but at the expense of the running game. The Panthers also went to the SB after Williams and Smith departed.
In the end, Gettlemen might actually have been canned for the perception he may part ways with Thomas Davis soon, and that is one of Richardson's favorite guys. Gettleman also has been playing hardball with Olsen.
During the SB run, Richardson is on record believing that Rivera was the driving force, even though he's made several decisions that have been second-guessed. Basically everything he did two years ago turned out great and then last year, not so much.
And on the loyalty slant, Richardson didn't like seeing the veterans leave, but if you look at it, the timing of having Smith and Williams leave was good - especially from a cap standpoint. People forget that Williams' last two years here he was often injured (as was Stewart), leaving chances for several younger players but at the expense of the running game. The Panthers also went to the SB after Williams and Smith departed.
In the end, Gettlemen might actually have been canned for the perception he may part ways with Thomas Davis soon, and that is one of Richardson's favorite guys. Gettleman also has been playing hardball with Olsen.
Iirc, when many were bashing Reese and extolling the talent-acquiring virtues(though many of his core were already in place there) of Gettleman, you were essentially saying that Gettleman was BBI's newest flavor of the month, that DG could do no wrong (paraphrasing)..You certainly hit that one up the alley
Through having John Fox, Steve Smith, DeAngelo Williams, Cam Newton, Josh Norman, Ron Rivera, etc. - They have NEVER had back-to-back winning seasons!
Just think about that the next time people m ake a comment about how easy it is to win in the NFL or lamenting why the Giants are serially in the playoffs like other teams are (the Panthers being one that's often mentioned)
Nevertheless, Richardson has the right to do what he thinks is in the best interest of the franchise. And this firing only leads you to believe that Gettleman has been warned as to how he ran these processes in the past, but it continued and Richardson finally said "enough".
Looking at the relatively good success the team has had under Gettleman though cannot be ignored. I am not close enough to that teams' business to know if he should actually get the credit based on his timing with the team. But if he is even partially responsible, then it falls back to Richardson as to what may be more important to how his team is run - wins or relationships...
I thought he did a couple of solid things, but Gettleman had nothing to do with Newton, Olsen, Thomas Davis, Norman, Kuechly, Johnson, or Khalil.. which was the nucleus most responsible for that teams success.
And as much as I like DeAngelo Williams, I don't think he has to worry about scratching teams off of his 'list.' It's a week from training camp, and he's on the unemployment line..
Just saying.
Gotta love the high level networking in the NFL.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2722401-marty-hurney-reportedly-expected-to-be-named-panthers-interim-gm
I thought he did a couple of solid things, but Gettleman had nothing to do with Newton, Olsen, Thomas Davis, Norman, Kuechly, Johnson, or Khalil.. which was the nucleus most responsible for that teams success.
Doesn't this illustrate the importance of the meat of the roster? Players 11-53 and not 1-10. I give Gettleman a ton of credit for doing well there. Gettleman also deserves credit for keeping the coach.
I never bought into the idea Gettleman was better than Reese - I didn't think we had enough data for that. I was very critical of Reese a couple years back, but thought he's done a good job the past two off-season.
Your general point, though, is why I held off on being as high on Reese as others have - he was given a coach and QB for his two SB runs.
Quote:
I didn't totally discredit Gettleman but I always found it odd that he was receiving so much praise in 2015 when the majority of the impact players on the team that year were not acquired or drafted on his watch.
I thought he did a couple of solid things, but Gettleman had nothing to do with Newton, Olsen, Thomas Davis, Norman, Kuechly, Johnson, or Khalil.. which was the nucleus most responsible for that teams success.
Doesn't this illustrate the importance of the meat of the roster? Players 11-53 and not 1-10. I give Gettleman a ton of credit for doing well there. Gettleman also deserves credit for keeping the coach.
I never bought into the idea Gettleman was better than Reese - I didn't think we had enough data for that. I was very critical of Reese a couple years back, but thought he's done a good job the past two off-season.
Your general point, though, is why I held off on being as high on Reese as others have - he was given a coach and QB for his two SB runs.
He did a nice job to a degree - I just questioned how much credit he really deserved when literally 5-10 of their most impactful players were not acquired or drafted by him. It's easier to supplement top tier talent than find it.
Reese probably got/gets a little too much credit for the 2007 Giants because Accorsi was the guy who signed/drafted the vast majority of the impact players on that roster but it was hard to ignore how strong Reese's 2007 draft was, which certainly impacted the ultimate success that team had.
I think Jerry Reese has an excellent eye for talent and I think he was too hands-off around 2012-2014. I don't know for a fact how much less involved he was in certain processes but it almost seemed like after that 2nd SB, he felt like he could kind of just coast a bit.
Once he was on the hot seat for the poor drafts we had, it seemed like he got more involved in the process again and we seem to have drafted quite a bit better these last 2-3 years since.
Coughlin was obviously already in place when Reese took over GM duties - and I don't know how much say he had in choosing McAdoo to be the successor but I thought McAdoo did a really nice job of coaching this team to its strengths last year and so that appears to be another good decision made.
Reese has his warts. He has some crappy drafts and poor signings on his resume but he inked one of the best FA classes ever last year (probably the best in this team's history... I'd argue the 2016 signings were better overall than Accorsi's 2005 signings) and was responsible for drafting a generational talent in Beckham, trading up for one of the best young safeties in football in Collins and revamping a defense that went from the worst in all of football to arguably the best in just a 2 year span which I found quite impressive.
Is Reese the best GM in football? Probably not - but I trust him as a talent evaluator and think he's probably one of the better GM's in the league. He came through when he was on the hot seat and infused this team with a good deal of top-shelf talent so I think he does deserve credit for that.
I'm happy he's here.
Drafts have definitely been more productive and the nice free agent haul last year cures a lot of ills since last SB win.
Not in top tier of GMs but not in the bottom either...
Hell, most BBI'ers had Gettleman better than Reese, especially after 2015. A lot of people will put Atlanta's GM ahead.
I'd like to see which GM's have 2 SB rings and completely revamped one side of the ball to go from a last place unit to a top 5 unit in a year.
2011 was pretty bad. Although Prince had some decent games (when he actually saw the field) and J-Will was a contributor on the championship team, there were simply way too many misses. 2012 was just a disaster.
2013 netted a couple of starters at the top again, at OL and DT, but...again...nothing in the mid-to-late rounds.
2014 was pretty damned good, with OBJ, Richburg, and Devon Kennard coming aboard. If Jay Bromley sticks and Nat Berhe can finally stay healthy, that's five out of seven picks contributing.
2015...well...our 1st and 7th round picks are starting at OT...for now. Landon Collins is an All-Pro, well worth the trade up to get him, and although Geremy Davis is gone and OO just might be, too, Mykkele Thompson is still hanging around.
Even though it might be a bit premature, I think you can put 2016 in the "outstanding" column, too. This year? We'll see, but the early returns are promising.
Ten drafts, three "outstanding" (and a possible fourth), one "pretty damned good," three okays, and two that were pretty lousy.
Not half as bad as some people make out (and it doesn't even include any UDFAs who became significant contributors, like Victor Cruz and Jake Ballard).
Along the way, Reese's free agent acquisitions have been a mixed bag, but guys like Rolle, Boley, Canty, Boothe, Tollefson, and Bernard did help put another Lombardi in the case, and of course signing Harrison, Vernon, Jenkins, and Robinson last year speaks for itself.
I'm just passing along articles and sentiment from Panthers fan/beat writers.
see link below Link - ( New Window )
Sure but the question isn't "Did the GM make mistakes?" it's did he make more mistakes than he should have? Or than other GM's or likely candidates would have?
If you demand perfection you are going to cycle through GM's awfully fast.
The people who said even a broken clock is right twice a day never met this guy.
Are the Mara's (of which I thought there was only one now) so incompetent that they somehow have more money than the salary cap allows?
Are the Mara's (of which I thought there was only one now) so incompetent that they somehow have more money than the salary cap allows?
lol I'd sign up for Mara level incompetence 10 times out of 10.