Headley, then this trade makes no sense at all. Robertson is the only one worth a shit.
Please let this go away.
Good luck with that.
This trade is about prospects and only about prospects. I wonder if CHI is trying to play Bos/NY against each other. If so, I hope the Red Sox get their asses kicked and by the hugest margin possible.
Mateo is a goner. If this includes Rutherford I think it's a lousy deal. Drob is signed through 2018. Frazier is not signed beyond 2017 and neither is Kahnle
Mateo is a goner. If this includes Rutherford I think it's a lousy deal. Drob is signed through 2018. Frazier is not signed beyond 2017 and neither is Kahnle
A little bit misleading. While Kahnle's current contract runs out at the end of the season, he has 3 years of team control left.
we'll have to see the prospects that go before we start saying we like or dislike it. But getting all three with Robertson having another year on his deal and Kahnle cost controlled for another 4 or so years, I would think it would be a decent haul...which worries me.
Frazier can play 1B as well as 3B. Think he would primarily be looked at as the 1B the rest of the year and spell Headley at 3B at times. The black hole at 1B is way more of a problem than Headley at 3B. I was interested in giving Cooper more of a look at 1B, but I guess there is a reason he was in the minors and was traded straight up for a lefty JAG reliever in Webb.
Mateo & Andujuar are still playing in their respective minor league games. Either the trade isn't as close as being reported or they are not a part of it.
Headley has a respectable .790 OPS vs righties, but about .500 vs lefties. Frazier has an OPS over .800 vs lefties. This would create an obvious platoon and gives them a better bench bat than we've had all season
Headley has a respectable .790 OPS vs righties, but about .500 vs lefties. Frazier has an OPS over .800 vs lefties. This would create an obvious platoon and gives them a better bench bat than we've had all season
I just hope we didn't overpay if this is all true
he's coming here if the deal goes through to play 1b.
RE: RE: Mark Feinsand made the point when on with Francesa today
Headley has a respectable .790 OPS vs righties, but about .500 vs lefties. Frazier has an OPS over .800 vs lefties. This would create an obvious platoon and gives them a better bench bat than we've had all season
I just hope we didn't overpay if this is all true
he's coming here if the deal goes through to play 1b.
I stand corrected - I guess the point about a better bat against lefties still makes some sense. But I'm worried about the cost
This season has been the product of how well the youngsters have been playing. I don't get trading for vets to disrupt the good vibe, even if the season is slipping away.
I could live with Tyler Wade, Dustin Fowler, but it feels like it will be much more.
Danny Ainge talked about that with the Celtics - teams try to fleece you when you have a surplus of assets. You can't put Rutherford in a package for something better than this slop?
would. But I just hate going back to the philosophy of acquiring overpaid, underperforming veterans.
We are not ready to compete. Hang on to the prospects. Why reverse course now?
Exactly! These three are not moving the needle one millimeter. They are not winning the World Series because they acquired these three. They are not game changers. And in Fraziers case, he's absolutely dreadful. And he's gone after this season anyways. Come on Cashman.
We all knew they would trade one of Frazier or Rutherford
poor trade by the Yankees. Going for it this year is fucking stupid. Rutherford should have been untouchable, and they traded him and didn't get a stud player back.
In any case, trading Rutherford isn t what's aggravating
poor trade by the Yankees. Going for it this year is fucking stupid. Rutherford should have been untouchable, and they traded him and didn't get a stud player back.
Todd fucking Frazier. Just think about that for a second. Oh, and a RP that they decided wasn't worth resigning just a couple of years ago. I guess they should have just resigned him, huh?
funny is everyone keeps talking about Frazier & Robertson on this board, Mark Fiensand keeps saying the guy who drove up the price is Tommy Kanlhe; Frazier amounts to just a throw in along with the two real pieces of the relief pitchers. But then you take a step back and say, the Yankees just sent away two of their top prospects for MIDDLE relief pitching? Yeesh, and thats with Betances & Chapman already on the roster locked up.
Say what you will about Cashman, he almost never gets fleeced like this. This is a massive overpay.
you're crying over some kid in A ball for God's sake.
The Yankees absolutely stole him. Rutherford was considered the top pick (or at worst, in the top 3 picks) of the entire draft last year, but he was going to college and nothing could stop him so all the teams drafting in front of the Yanks passed on him because he wouldn't sign anyway. But when his favorite team since a little kid - the Yankees - drafted him anyway, he chose to forego college.
He's going to be a 5-tool player and a lefty to boot. Enough speed to play CF and steal 20-30 bases a year with a bazooka arm. The kid is going to be a star. I just wish it was going to be with the Yankees. Heartbreaking!
one is a FA after this year. One is a FA after 2018. One is under team control for 3 more years. How is that going for it this year? I've never seen Rutherford play. I've read lots of glowing reports so maybe they'll regret this. But the Yankees are loaded with young OF's. They can't keep all of them. They're going to keep Girardi as mgr that's for sure and there is no chance to win without a LOADED bullpen the way he manages. So on the surface this makes sense to me.
At least Alonso is actually playing well this year
Say what you will about Cashman, he almost never gets fleeced like this. This is a massive overpay.
you're crying over some kid in A ball for God's sake.
The Yankees absolutely stole him. Rutherford was considered the top pick (or at worst, in the top 3 picks) of the entire draft last year, but he was going to college and nothing could stop him so all the teams drafting in front of the Yanks passed on him because he wouldn't sign anyway. But when his favorite team since a little kid - the Yankees - drafted him anyway, he chose to forego college.
He's going to be a 5-tool player and a lefty to boot. Enough speed to play CF and steal 20-30 bases a year with a bazooka arm. The kid is going to be a star. I just wish it was going to be with the Yankees. Heartbreaking!
That isn't accurate. Rutherford fell because of his bonus demands and the fact that he was a 19 year old HS senior. He never said he wouldn't sign with any team other than the Yankees.
Why is Cash behaving like his job depends on the Yanks
Shocked it was resolved this way. Frazier and Judge are entrenched in the corners, and centerfield should be interesting - Gardner, Ellsbury, Hicks and Fowler battle in the short term until Florial comes knocking.
Trade from strength. Helps now and later. Confirms faith in Bird. You have to give to get, and an A ball outfielder when you have a glut of outfielders is what you do...
You get a closer, the guy who was goimg to be the repkacement closer and a 35 HR bat that can play two positions, (and the comparisons to Carter are ridiculous) both of desperate need and you are moanong about an A ball kid.
with all the teams desperate for closers, the Yanks now have at least 3 what are they worth? What championship caliber team needs a closer and might be willing to pay through the nose for Chapman or Betances?
Trade from strength. Helps now and later. Confirms faith in Bird. You have to give to get, and an A ball outfielder when you have a glut of outfielders is what you do...
That's all fine - two middle relievers and a shitty lumberjack rental is a lousy way to relieve that glut of OFs.
Shocked it was resolved this way. Frazier and Judge are entrenched in the corners, and centerfield should be interesting - Gardner, Ellsbury, Hicks and Fowler battle in the short term until Florial comes knocking.
It's always helpful to have guys waiting in the wings. Injuries happen, careers take downturns...you just never know when you're gonna need another good young position player. Trading a top prospect for rentals isn't ideal, imo.
this deal sucks. Trading top prospects for a 31 year old 3b hitting .216 and a 32-year old reliever. How is this better than what we have. These guys are spare parts for the short term, and certainly not missing pieces. WTF is Cash thinking?
You get a closer, the guy who was goimg to be the repkacement closer and a 35 HR bat that can play two positions, (and the comparisons to Carter are ridiculous) both of desperate need and you are moanong about an A ball kid.
with all the teams desperate for closers, the Yanks now have at least 3 what are they worth? What championship caliber team needs a closer and might be willing to pay through the nose for Chapman or Betances?
Excellent post.
I believe chappy has a no trade clause for years 1-3 if I'm not mistaken tho
RE: I'd be quite disappointed to give up Rutherford.
this deal sucks. Trading top prospects for a 31 year old 3b hitting .216 and a 32-year old reliever. How is this better than what we have. These guys are spare parts for the short term, and certainly not missing pieces. WTF is Cash thinking?
He's thinking he wants to make the playoffs
Severino
Cc
Monty
Those 3 can pitch in the postseason. They only need 6 innings.. or 5.
Why on Earth would we trade Blake Rutherford for these
guys? This seems diametrically opposed to the moves Cashman was making last year... not taking the long view of this situation.
I like D-Rob and Kahnle has been good, but I don't like Todd Frazier AT ALL. I'm not even against trading Blake in general, but I would really prefer to not be aggressive this season. And if we are, get YOUNG players in return.
If you are going to bring young pitchers along and slowly increase their innings...you need a deep bullpen.
If we had won 4 more games of the last 40 because of less blown saves....we would be tied or close to it.
Its not a go all out for now move and sell all we had in the minors...its a decent solid calculated risk. That's gonna happen when you have a stocked minor league.
Hey...remember when we would not trade Montero for anything less than the NL All Star Lineup?
I'm ok with it. Not going to win the Ws. But it would have had us tied for first if we had a Robertson all this season. Or next.
The wild care is going to come down to four games over the rest of the year. And next
RE: RE: I'd be quite disappointed to give up Rutherford.
You get a closer, the guy who was goimg to be the repkacement closer and a 35 HR bat that can play two positions, (and the comparisons to Carter are ridiculous) both of desperate need and you are moanong about an A ball kid.
with all the teams desperate for closers, the Yanks now have at least 3 what are they worth? What championship caliber team needs a closer and might be willing to pay through the nose for Chapman or Betances?
Are they really "desperate" for a 31 year old hitter when clearly they're set up for the long term with a very young team? I thought they were a pretty good offensive club. Hitting would not have been my first thought for big needs.
I would have included Rutherford in a deal for a SP. But I think including him is more about getting the relievers than Frazier. We can argue all day about Frazier. He's probably about average. But if you want to scream he sucks, go ahead.
But word is that the Sox set a high price for Kahnle. Including Rutherford is about fixing the bullpen and neither of those guys are not rentals
if Yankees determined that Rutherford isn't a CF it severely diminishes his value to the organization with all the corner OF we have. Florial likely moved ahead of him in the pecking order. I wanted a SP for him, but I can live with it
and TFrazier will do well with a shorter RF.
Worth it.
And I agree with the 'hasn't developed as quickly' comment.
I disagree with the Harper for OF comment.
Don't need him ; why a headcase when the homegrown kids are talented and stable.
The game has really turned into a battle of bullpens. Yes the Yanks need SP. However, shortening the game can be argued as more important. So, in that aspect I like it.
I just don't know about Frazier and giving up a young stud. Does Frazier give us much more than Cooper right now? It seems like a minimal upgrade unless Frazier starts dropping HRs all over the place.
I would have prefered to stay the course though. This is not the year to go all in.
did last year. What has his team done when they are not outspending others by 50M+? Two of the biggest liabilities are his doings in Ellsbury and Headley. Now this? Who knows what's to come?
Frazier will strike out in every key AB, who wants to bet?
Rutherford doesn't have any 55/60+ tools except for the hit tool, the Yanks prob thouht he'd hit 330 in low A and be in Tampa by now. Still, I just hate trading prospects for stopgaps and it's too early to sour on Blake.
If you are going to bring young pitchers along and slowly increase their innings...you need a deep bullpen.
If we had won 4 more games of the last 40 because of less blown saves....we would be tied or close to it.
Its not a go all out for now move and sell all we had in the minors...its a decent solid calculated risk. That's gonna happen when you have a stocked minor league.
Hey...remember when we would not trade Montero for anything less than the NL All Star Lineup?
I'm ok with it. Not going to win the Ws. But it would have had us tied for first if we had a Robertson all this season. Or next.
The wild care is going to come down to four games over the rest of the year. And next
Bill is right. With a deep BP, they can contend. Drob, Betances and Chapman. Add Warren, Green and Holder or Heller in the 6th shortens the game another inning.
this. Vintage 1980's type move. Who the hell knows whether Rutherford will amount to anything but you have to hang onto guys like that or if you do trade him get real value in return.
Maybe he did somehow become a dominant reliever overnight at age 28, but I'd rather not bet a top 100 prospect on it when every year there are journeyman relievers who have a huge season out of nowhere and then sink back into mediocrity.
Its not a go all out for now move and sell all we had in the minors...its a decent solid calculated risk. That's gonna happen when you have a stocked minor league.
Hey...remember when we would not trade Montero for anything less than the NL All Star Lineup?
I'm ok with it. Not going to win the Ws. But it would have had us tied for first if we had a Robertson all this season. Or next.
But if we're not thinking we can win the WS, then what's the point of the deal? It's a complete "win now" move.` The Cubs have been making trades like this because they thought (and legitimately so) that they could win the World Series. Yes, we have an excellent farm system, but we're not "there" yet where a move like this is necessary.
they may have really grown to like the bat speed, attitude, coachability and adjustments Red Frazier has made in the last three weeks and said to themselves we may have a very good player in 1-2 years.
They sure liked Fowler
making Rutherford a bit more of a luxury they could sell high.
usually cant get much for a guy playing A ball.
I just see a lot of sound logic in this move.
its a sport so who knows how it will play out. But Cashman is not being stupid
One last thing...maybe trading Rutherford is worth keeping two decent relievers from being in Boston for the next two years????
this deal sucks. Trading top prospects for a 31 year old 3b hitting .216 and a 32-year old reliever. How is this better than what we have. These guys are spare parts for the short term, and certainly not missing pieces. WTF is Cash thinking?
He's thinking he wants to make the playoffs
Severino
Cc
Monty
Those 3 can pitch in the postseason. They only need 6 innings.. or 5.
Talking with my son about this today. Will Monty be available in the playoffs. What is his innings limit this year?
You get a closer, the guy who was goimg to be the repkacement closer and a 35 HR bat that can play two positions, (and the comparisons to Carter are ridiculous) both of desperate need and you are moanong about an A ball kid.
with all the teams desperate for closers, the Yanks now have at least 3 what are they worth? What championship caliber team needs a closer and might be willing to pay through the nose for Chapman or Betances?
Are they really "desperate" for a 31 year old hitter when clearly they're set up for the long term with a very young team? I thought they were a pretty good offensive club. Hitting would not have been my first thought for big needs.
So Cris Carter and Headley have been tolerable for you this year?
Frazier is the big name in this deal but I guarantee the relievers are the keys to the deal in Cashman's eyes. Robertson is signed through next season and Kahnle is controllable for I believe three more seasons
gets to live his dream of playing for the Yankees (though sad that Rutherford can't fulfill his).
I just think it was worth holding onto Rutherford and seeing if we could have at least moved him as part of a package for a frontline starter.
I was just looking at Rutherfords numbers and his power has stepped up a bit but only 2 HRs.
He would probly be at AA next year actually. Blake is probly MLB ready by either 2019 or 2020
But his Hr power is a ways away. I do wonder if he could be a good defensive CF tho and I still rate Fowler better but admit Rutherfords ceiling is higher. But shittt even Florial I rate higher then Blake
Yankees farm system is Stacked! And big trades are coming with the 40 man and what not.
Basically the only other thing they can do is trade a haul for a stud SP If one becomes available
Here. A Bird in hand is worth two in the bush. Help for the pen and corners would not be free. Mateo is still here. Florial is too. Too many OF that have proven more....good luck a Blake.
We are not competing with Houston or even Boston this
year. Trading away touted prospects for rentals is just not smart.
We are all giddy over the glut of prospects now but after a few of this type of moves the system would be poor again.
None of the big IFA signees except for Florial has done anything. Our draft picks still miss more than they hit. System is good because of the trades last year. Let's not think we can afford to throw prospects away for rentals.
Frazier is essentially a throw-in stopgap here until Gleyber and Bird come back next year. I disagree with the notion that this is a sign they're going "all-in" this year. They need an overhaul on the mound. Starters and bullpen. This is a good step to at least fix one of them, yes for this year but more importantly next. Anything to get Headley less at bats and Clippard off the mound is a positive in my eyes.
but Fowler can't even remotely be a part of the equation anymore until he shows he can do it on the field again.
I'm not saying Rutherford was untouchable and if we were a "win now" team, I'd totally understand the move even if I didn't agree with it. Where I see this team in it's progression, we needed to be looking at a different group of players than the ones we're getting back.
year. Trading away touted prospects for rentals is just not smart.
We are all giddy over the glut of prospects now but after a few of this type of moves the system would be poor again.
None of the big IFA signees except for Florial has done anything. Our draft picks still miss more than they hit. System is good because of the trades last year. Let's not think we can afford to throw prospects away for rentals.
It's not just for rentals! How many times does this need to be repeated?
I have enjoyed your insight for years...we need to realize as fans, nothing is free, and not every prospect is awesome...at least long term....you get that, some us have over protective.
John Harper (Daily News) just said on SNY SportsNite that Chapman is a factor in this deal. Yanks are concerned about managing his workload down the stretch. Also said Yanks refused to include Rutherford in a Quintana deal, and that Clint Frazier's strong first impression may have had something to do with this.
RE: Doesn't matter. These players aren't going to make
They'll absolutely make difference this season. Enough to win the WS? almost surely not. But maybe enough to take the division. And two of the three pieces in the deal, probably the two Cashman values most, are not just rentals.
They dealt from a position of strength with Rutherford. Wish it'd been for a SP but I'm ok with it.
Possible. He hasn't been the same pitcher since coming back from injury.
It really goes back to Maddon burning him out in the World Series. And really, Yanks can't complain, buyer beware and all that. But it's becoming more clear they can't fully count on him this season. Hopefully he can get back to himself in time
Just said that the yanks are concerned about Chapman. Not saying he us injured, just concerned because they have 4 more years and Robertson can give him a little of a break.
This makes more sense.
John Harper (Daily News) just said on SNY SportsNite that Chapman is a factor in this deal. Yanks are concerned about managing his workload down the stretch. Also said Yanks refused to include Rutherford in a Quintana deal, and that Clint Frazier's strong first impression may have had something to do with this.
I also wonder if the emergence of Hicks may have also had at least a little influence here as well.
the pen now. But how many All-Stars in the pen does Girardi need? Cashman seems to be perpetually re-arranging the deck chairs in the pen and devotes a lot of resources towards it. Now he is trading a top OF prospect to get bullpen pieces? Ugh.
I am not throwing a fit because Rutherford is gone, but I am afraid this might signal the Yanks are back to their old ways. And now we actually have legit prospects to come back and haunt us.
I suppose how you feel about this trade is probably a reflection
on whether you believe in Kahnle or not. Just seems like a huge roll of the dice to think that a 28 year old nondescript relief pitcher turned into a star who will dominate for years to come, practically overnight.
Do people think we can compete next year? If not this year?
on whether you believe in Kahnle or not. Just seems like a huge roll of the dice to think that a 28 year old nondescript relief pitcher turned into a star who will dominate for years to come, practically overnight.
True, very true.
Happend with andrew Miller that way kind of ..
I know nothing about this guy honestly.
RE: RE: I suppose how you feel about this trade is probably a reflection
on whether you believe in Kahnle or not. Just seems like a huge roll of the dice to think that a 28 year old nondescript relief pitcher turned into a star who will dominate for years to come, practically overnight.
But hate to see Rutherford go - had to have known someone was eventually going to be moved soon
More moves coming though. This doesn't solve the 40 man problem. In fact it might even cause further need to make more moves or else lose some guys rule 5
RE: Andrew Miller was the overall #6 pick in the draft
And by some accounts isn't making a lot of hard contact. I don't necessarily believe this but it is possible the Yankees sold high here. Not every prospect pans out
That if this deal goes thru Dellin will move out of the 8th inning role and Robertson will take over. Dellin will basically pitch anywhere when needed. Interesting.
That if this deal goes thru Dellin will move out of the 8th inning role and Robertson will take over. Dellin will basically pitch anywhere when needed. Interesting.
Wow. Sounds like it says something about how they feel about Betances right now, no?
Just because Miller was the 6th pick (who then sucked for 5 years) until he made mechanical adjustments doesn't mean Kahnle's progress (was a 5th round pick btw) should be ignored
But it does make this team a lot better. Frazier may not rebound but even his current production is much better than what we've been getting out of 1B. Also hit better on the road, suggesting ballpark had at least something to do with his .207.
That if this deal goes thru Dellin will move out of the 8th inning role and Robertson will take over. Dellin will basically pitch anywhere when needed. Interesting.
Wow. Sounds like it says something about how they feel about Betances right now, no?
I get what you're saying but I don't necessarily think it says anything about Betances. I've never liked confining him to one set inning. He's been at his most valuable when he can come in at any time and often help get out of jams. Curry compared it to how the Indians use Andrew Miller. I like it
That if this deal goes thru Dellin will move out of the 8th inning role and Robertson will take over. Dellin will basically pitch anywhere when needed. Interesting.
Wow. Sounds like it says something about how they feel about Betances right now, no?
I get what you're saying but I don't necessarily think it says anything about Betances. I've never liked confining him to one set inning. He's been at his most valuable when he can come in at any time and often help get out of jams. Curry compared it to how the Indians use Andrew Miller. I like it
Betances has been our 8th inning guy for how long? To just move him right away for someone coming in I would think has to say something, even if he is better used coming in whenever.
reporters pressing Girardi on the trade in the postgame -
Maybe its a combo of both? Use Betances in a way he's better used at, coming in whenever. And give someone who was once here and has had success and is experienced the 8th inning? Two birds with one stone. It can't hurt to try.
They're not getting rid of him, but he'a a part-time player now.
Trying to figure out who gets sent down with these moves - we're adding 3 to the 25 and subtracting one, so two need to be moved. Probably Cessa and either Choi or Cooper.
Kinda jealous what the Yanks are doing. Not a fan of Frazier but he is a good clubhouse guy that occasionally can hit the long ball. Kahnle is really good. He pitched an inning earlier this year at the stadium and struck the side out on 9 or 10 pitches. The Yanks (Cashman) get it. I think Yankee fans should have enough faith in their FO that they aren't overpaying,etc...On the other hand, as a NYM fan, you sit there and wonder what Alderson is thinking. We need to get into the game soon...real soon.
Wow. Sounds like it says something about how they feel about Betances right now, no?
I don't think so. Tethering relief pitchers to specific innings is a dopey fucking thing to do and not keeping Dellin as "the 8th inning guy" will actually make him more valuable.
Choi and Refsnyder. And good chance Choi clears and ends up back in Scranton (like Mason Williams). Maybe someone picks up Refsnyder, but time to move on from him. They'd be letting him go in the off season anyway, when they need room. May as well just do it now, opposed to losing an arm that can help.
Refsnyder is worthless. He can't hit in the majors and every position he plays, he plays poorly. Frazier can play 1B in addition to 3B. So he thankfully would never be playing 1B anymore. And Wade as leaped Refsnyder as the utility guy who can play IF/OF. Wade can play more positions (SS and 3B), is a very good fielder, and younger with a higher ceiling.
Choi and Refsnyder. And good chance Choi clears and ends up back in Scranton (like Mason Williams). Maybe someone picks up Refsnyder, but time to move on from him. They'd be letting him go in the off season anyway, when they need room. May as well just do it now, opposed to losing an arm that can help.
Refsnyder is worthless. He can't hit in the majors and every position he plays, he plays poorly. Frazier can play 1B in addition to 3B. So he thankfully would never be playing 1B anymore. And Wade as leaped Refsnyder as the utility guy who can play IF/OF. Wade can play more positions (SS and 3B), is a very good fielder, and younger with a higher ceiling.
Its not every day you make a trade for two good pitchers and send back a bad one. You can bitch about Headley , Ellsbury and 1B all you want, Clippard is the reason we're not in first place. In addition to the half dozen or so games he's blown, how often did Betances have to come in early to bail him out ?.
I am so glad to have Robertson back, Kahnle looks solid too. As far as I'm concerned, if Frazier is any good its gravy. Cashman addressed our biggest need: the bullpen
Kinda jealous what the Yanks are doing. Not a fan of Frazier but he is a good clubhouse guy that occasionally can hit the long ball. Kahnle is really good. He pitched an inning earlier this year at the stadium and struck the side out on 9 or 10 pitches. The Yanks (Cashman) get it. I think Yankee fans should have enough faith in their FO that they aren't overpaying,etc...On the other hand, as a NYM fan, you sit there and wonder what Alderson is thinking. We need to get into the game soon...real soon.
Mets got bit with injury bug hard...can't really judge anything with that team this year. You have 3 Solid starters in DeGrom, Matz and Thor, iffy on Wheeler. Harvey lost it.
Never understood the Murphy trade. Guy had arguably the greatest post-season I've ever seen, and you trade him that year. I'm not trying to get at this but....it's the Mets.
But why is everyone praising the Royals as the originators of the dominant closer trio? From 1998-2001, the Yankees did the same thing with Stanton, Nelson, and Rivera. Hell Rivera would go 4-6 outs if needed.
Kinda jealous what the Yanks are doing. Not a fan of Frazier but he is a good clubhouse guy that occasionally can hit the long ball. Kahnle is really good. He pitched an inning earlier this year at the stadium and struck the side out on 9 or 10 pitches. The Yanks (Cashman) get it. I think Yankee fans should have enough faith in their FO that they aren't overpaying,etc...On the other hand, as a NYM fan, you sit there and wonder what Alderson is thinking. We need to get into the game soon...real soon.
Mets got bit with injury bug hard...can't really judge anything with that team this year. You have 3 Solid starters in DeGrom, Matz and Thor, iffy on Wheeler. Harvey lost it.
Never understood the Murphy trade. Guy had arguably the greatest post-season I've ever seen, and you trade him that year. I'm not trying to get at this but....it's the Mets.
But why is everyone praising the Royals as the originators of the dominant closer trio? From 1998-2001, the Yankees did the same thing with Stanton, Nelson, and Rivera. Hell Rivera would go 4-6 outs if needed.
That was a dope team, but also remember in '96 it was Mo in 7 and 8 and then Wetteland in 9 (when he was apparently contractually obligated to put at least 1 man on base to make it interesting).
RE: Do people think we can compete next year? If not this year?
I wonder how much their belief in Florial had to do with their willingness to part with Rutherford. If there's such a thing as an ideal situation for comparing two prospects, this was it. They batted back to back in the batting order and played next to each other in the outfield.
p.s.--I also wonder if this is a prelude to another trade that will include one or two from their bullpen and net them a starting pitcher. You don't need four pitchers with "closer ability" in your pen (although who knows, there was a time when it was thought you didn't need two closers in your pen).
Rutherford wasn't untradable, but why blow a premium asset like that and not get a legit starting pitcher in return? ChiSox really have an interesting farm to follow now
Rutherford wasn't untradable, but why blow a premium asset like that and not get a legit starting pitcher in return? ChiSox really have an interesting farm to follow now
I agree. The Yanks trade a top young talent for a box of spare parts. Frazier and Robertson are both over 30 and probably won't be on the team in a couple of years, and Frazier is only hitting .207. I understand the team has too many top OF prospects and needs to trade a couple, but I believe they could have received far better value for what they gave away.
Rutherford wasn't untradable, but why blow a premium asset like that and not get a legit starting pitcher in return?
Maybe the Yankees didn't view him as an asset that was going to appreciate in value the longer they held onto it. The fact that Frazier and Robertson were on their way to Boston if the Yankees didn't step in gives the deal added value. The division is up for grabs. A 3 1/2 game lead is nothing in July. The Bosox can lose that lead just as quickly as the Yankees did.
This trade didn't fill the team's biggest hole, but filling little holes can make just enough of a difference that instead of hosting a wild card game that's all or nothing for them, the Yankees are hosting a Red Sox team that had to start Sale in the wild card game.
Rutherford wasn't untradable, but why blow a premium asset like that and not get a legit starting pitcher in return? ChiSox really have an interesting farm to follow now
The issue that raises eyebrows for me is the fact that the Yanks barely waited a year to trade Rutherford- especially after the big deal they made about him falling to them. What changed that made him expendable in their minds?
Trading a guy like Rutherford would have been as part of a SP deal, but this doesn't look like a bad trade to me at all.
The fact that Robertson and Kahnle were let go by the Yankees seasons ago is not relevant. They always liked Robertson, it was about money. Kahnle has transformed himself quite a bit since then; different player from the one they cast aside.
Chapman
Betances
Robertson
Kahnle
Warren
Green
Shreve
That's a crew that can bail you out of a couple 4-5 inning starts.
I do wonder if they look to stretch out one of Green/Warren. Cessa isn't long for the 25-man, and could be gone altogether soon. For the immediate term, I'd like to see them give Mitchell 2-3 more stabs at the 5th spot (barring a trade for a SP)
sures up the pen for this year and next. you could pottentially have 3 closers, so Chapman and Betances dont have to pitch everyday and they seem to have hit a wall.
Also frees up the idea of trading Betances, who is the kind of piece needed for a big time SP.
The issue that raises eyebrows for me is the fact that the Yanks barely waited a year to trade Rutherford- especially after the big deal they made about him falling to them. What changed that made him expendable in their minds?
Rutherford wasn't untradable, but why blow a premium asset like that and not get a legit starting pitcher in return? ChiSox really have an interesting farm to follow now
The issue that raises eyebrows for me is the fact that the Yanks barely waited a year to trade Rutherford- especially after the big deal they made about him falling to them. What changed that made him expendable in their minds?
I share your opinion. I know that Rutherford is a couple years away, but we haven't even begun to see his potential.
My only thought about the reasoning is that Rutherford (as good - even great - as he is) was being groomed for CF as LF and RF are going to be Frazier and Judge for the next decade or more. Rutherford is fast (in spite of his size) and was projected to be a 30-30 guy, but maybe not fast enough for CF.
In the end, I think the Yanks know they gave up a high ceiling gem, but for whatever reasons, thought this move will benefit the Yanks. It appears the Yanks are going to make the moves to get to the playoffs - the big crapshoot in which any team can take it all if they are hot at the right time, but you have to be in the playoffs to give it a shot. And we know the Baby Bombers can get hot - very hot. It's just a matter of when they do. I think their confidence is shaken a little since they took off like a rocket, but discovered the pain of untimely injuries and slumps.
I hope Rutherford does well in his new role and will be rooting for him except when he plays against the Yanks
Maybe its a combo of both? Use Betances in a way he's better used at, coming in whenever. And give someone who was once here and has had success and is experienced the 8th inning? Two birds with one stone. It can't hurt to try.
I get that thy're worried about Chapman so they brought back Robertson, and if all healthy, Betances can fill an Andrew Miller Cleveland-like role, coming in whenever there is a fire.
I would rather have stayed put, used Caleb Smith some more, and kept Rutherford, because there is no guarantee that Fowler comes back as the same player after that horrid knee injury. The best thing about this deal is that it got Clippard off the roster, but they could have just DFAd him or dumped him on an NL contender.
-fans my age(49) and older will always be traumatized by Willie McGee for Bob Sykes but this front office has never shown a propensity to make deals like that so its unfair
-As some have mentioned Frazier was a secondary part of the deal, a rental corner bat to hopefully be an upgrade over what we are sending out there.
-the real key to this deal was the RP's. As I've said in many threads to the "awww shucks who cares if we are playing awful, the future is so bright!" crowd The real concern during this stretch has been Chappy and Betances because they are a big part of that future the next few years. This trade signals to me that Cash and the organization has lost some confidence in them going forward. Chappy has a long term deal, so he's not going anywhere, but I think this deal may start the progression and transition away from Betances.
To me, Frazier is the least of the pieces. But he does fill in some chinks as a platoon option at 1B, 3B and as a DH if Holiday goes down again. All while still not blocking Torres or Bird.
Second, regarding how far from MLB ready Rutherford really was. Just as in finance discounted future cash flow and risk adjusted net present value is very important in valuing assets, we need to keep in mind that potential within a 1-2 year window has a much much higher probability of success than equal rated potential 3-4 years away.
This is especially true if you have young players at the MLB players ( Judge and Frazier) and alternatives in the farm system.
Just as we constantly debate the blend of need and best player available that dominates our thinking in NY Giants drafting commentary; we need to develop a blended approach somewhat between "all in for this year" and " bet on the potential of the prospects".
The risk adjusted calculus of betting on potential far away and the Rule 5 reality moves the framework for evaluating trades to no more than 2-3 years out ( once you have seen a brand new prospect in the system for a year).
Guys you know better after a one year sample size post draft but that still sit three years away or have less than good star MLB potential....are trade-able assets for average or better MLB players within the 1-3 year window.
They have his medicals, they have his make-up, they have his coach-ability. They have Chapmans loss of velocity within the last year. They know Betances control and inability to hold runners on makes him a tough 8th inning risk but a weapon if you still have a few at bats left on nights he is wild.
I think the team is better over the next 3 years.
We all may be over valuing prospects because Sanchez and Judge all of a sudden "got it" and showed that can happen. So can a Kaprelian and a Bird narrative. Or a Montero
RE: meh. As Greg so eloquently put it, Frazier sucks ass. They already
Frazier has hit 91 HR's over the past 2 and a half seasons, Headley has hit 28 and Frazier's defensive advanced metrics are light years better than Headley. Of course Frazier K's too much and his BA sucks but in the past 3 seasons he's struck out about 370 times, Headley 340 times. If you think they are the same player I don't know what to say. Headley may be the worst everyday 3b in the AL.
First of all, we are absolutely stacked with OF prospects. Not sure if you guys know this, but only 3 can play at a time. Not only do we have 3 young players right now that look to be the future, but we have a wealth of guys behind them that are much closer than Rutherford.
Secondly, Ruthorford is in low A and while he is definitely a legit prospect, a lot can happen in the 3 years from now until he's potentially MLB ready. Potentially.
The Yankees have a shot. This isn't the final product, but you add a starter to this team and we have as good of a shot as anyone. Best lineup, best bullpen and a staff that has the potential. This team has always gone for it when they were this close and they will do that again, while still keeping an eye on the future. We are loaded in the minors and we can afford a move like this.
but I think there's also a good chance of catching lightening in a bottle with him. Kid from the area coming home and playing on a contender might get him going.
RE: RE: meh. As Greg so eloquently put it, Frazier sucks ass. They already
Frazier has hit 91 HR's over the past 2 and a half seasons, Headley has hit 28 and Frazier's defensive advanced metrics are light years better than Headley. Of course Frazier K's too much and his BA sucks but in the past 3 seasons he's struck out about 370 times, Headley 340 times. If you think they are the same player I don't know what to say. Headley may be the worst everyday 3b in the AL.
He's not worth a top flight prospect like Rutherford. .210 is .210. He's not turning them into a WS favorite. And stuff your your snide remarks up your fucking ass.
Bottom line if I'm going to send a 3b with a sucky avg who K's a lot
if the Yanks would have parted with Rutherford if not for the fact that Boston was also in talks for Frazier and Robertson. The Red Sox are in need of a 3rd basemen and more relief help so it makes sense that they were in talks as reported.
As I stew about losing Rutherford, there is a glimmer of vengeful enjoyment knowing the Sox lost out, for which I am sure they are pissed. Had Boston made the deal, it probably would have made them a lock for winning the division for the next couple of years.
Also, I have been off the wagon on the Yanks pursuing Harper (and frankly, still am), but I think that issue comes back into play now. Personally, I hope we go all in on Machado and maybe even get Andrew Miller back. With all the money coming off the books and next years stellar free agent class, the Yanks can make some serious moves to be a lock for contention for the next half decade.
This trade was more to strengthen the BP with the best BP arm available than it was to get Frazier. Frazier is a cherry on top. We just solidified our BP for the next few seasons.
Tommy Kahnle had better be for real, because if he isn't this trade will look pretty damned bad.
Or maybe Blake Rutherford ends up not being for real. Saw some perspective from the other side that the White Sox really didn't get enough. The other two prospects are essentially lottery tickets. So it really boils down to Rutherford for all three. He better be good or the deal looks bad for Chicago.
Works both ways.
again: it's not trading Rutherford that bothers me
but if Rutherford's power doesn't develop further, as a corner OF his value drops. It could end up that they sold high on him. Time will tell.
Kahnle has been one of the best relievers in baseball this season. He replaces one of the worst in clippard. And he's team controlled for the next three seasons.
Maybe he's legit, but baseball history is littered with relievers who have one anomalous incredible season that is never repeated. Just seems like an awfully big risk to take.
It also rankles me that they didn't want to pay Robertson $12 million per to be their closer, but now trade for him so they can pay him $12 million to set up. Don't get me wrong, I've always been a fan of Robertson, but it just seems like a silly way to operate.
Everyone raves about Frazier, I find him and his swing to be unimpressive. I think someone said it before, simply because Sanchez and Judge have done well, that doesn't mean all our prospects are not tradeable. Rutherford trade is a direct result of making one trade too many last year. we ended up with a worse reliever and now Frazier needs to be better than Rutherford over their career or these two trades will be awful.
Framing this as a "Rutherford for Todd Frazier!" deal is utterly stupefying.
Feel free to not like the deal (for it isn't a no-brainer by any stretch), but if that's your angle, you're either being disingenuous or you just don't get it.
RE: again: it's not trading Rutherford that bothers me
Time will tell if this trade works out. There's high risk in every trade in every sport. If the Yanks get in the playoffs and get hot and win it all - Cashman will seem like a genius. If they continue to struggle like they have the last month, Cash will be looking for a job and we will hear fans bitching and moaning about this deal for the next decade.
Maybe he's legit, but baseball history is littered with relievers who have one anomalous incredible season that is never repeated. Just seems like an awfully big risk to take.
It also rankles me that they didn't want to pay Robertson $12 million per to be their closer, but now trade for him so they can pay him $12 million to set up. Don't get me wrong, I've always been a fan of Robertson, but it just seems like a silly way to operate.
Not re-signing Robertson netted them an extra first round pick and freed them up to get Andrew Miller though. And we all know the package that Miller brought back
Framing this as a "Rutherford for Todd Frazier!" deal is utterly stupefying.
Feel free to not like the deal (for it isn't a no-brainer by any stretch), but if that's your angle, you're either being disingenuous or you just don't get it.
It was more like a Clint Frazier for Rutherford trade as I said, because if we kept Miller we don't make this trade.
Everyone raves about Frazier, I find him and his swing to be unimpressive. I think someone said it before, simply because Sanchez and Judge have done well, that doesn't mean all our prospects are not tradeable. Rutherford trade is a direct result of making one trade too many last year. we ended up with a worse reliever and now Frazier needs to be better than Rutherford over their career or these two trades will be awful.
You've found Frazier to be unimpressive so far in the big leagues? Interesting.
He's had the job for 20 years now and just pulled off a hell of a rapid rebuild of the farm. Even if the trade bombs, it's one trade.
Cashman isn't going anywhere because if he was held accountable for the amount of resources he has versus what he has produced this century, he would have been fired long ago.
Everyone raves about Frazier, I find him and his swing to be unimpressive. I think someone said it before, simply because Sanchez and Judge have done well, that doesn't mean all our prospects are not tradeable. Rutherford trade is a direct result of making one trade too many last year. we ended up with a worse reliever and now Frazier needs to be better than Rutherford over their career or these two trades will be awful.
You've found Frazier to be unimpressive so far in the big leagues? Interesting.
OPS over 1.000 (without taking his walks yet) going into last night's game where he hit almost everything hard. Turned around a 99 mph fastball up for a walk off home run against one of the best closers in the NL a week and a half ago. Shown great baserunning instincts.
His swing is slightly unorthodox, though he's mentioned already making some adjustments. His talent is evident and he's already contributed significantly.
If we didn't make the Miller trade we wouldn't have made this trade?
It's simple logic, really. Frazier is going to be a MLB ballplayer, and I pray I am wrong, but he doesn't scream future all-star to me. Now, to be fair, I have no idea how Rutherford will turn out either, my point is the way to judge this trade in some ways is how the Clint Frazier and Blake Rutherford ultimately pan out. There is a concept of cause and effect, no?
OPS over 1.000 (without taking his walks yet) going into last night's game where he hit almost everything hard. Turned around a 99 mph fastball up for a walk off home run against one of the best closers in the NL a week and a half ago. Shown great baserunning instincts.
His swing is slightly unorthodox, though he's mentioned already making some adjustments. His talent is evident and he's already contributed significantly.
Your logic on this deal is quite warped
This is correct. Essex has been very vocal about his disdain for the Miller trade since it happened. Frazier has no chance with him. He's already made his mind up on him. Long before he ever seen him play.
Oh by the way, Sheffield looks very good too and will hopefully be a key cog in the rotation within the next couple of years. But I'm sure he doesn't impress Essex either.
I think Clint Frazier is a player. He brings a dimension of speed
I definitely think Frazier is a long time MLB player, my skepticism is that he will a very good one. As I said, I hope you guys can laugh in my face about what an idiot i am when Frazier is a star.
they very well still might have made this trade. Even if they had Miller instead of Chapman.
Oh, Betances has been consistent. He consistently comes in the game in the 8th, gets a strike out, but then somehow always manages to load the bases with walks and hits. Then he either pitches out of it or loses the game for us. And that unfortunately, is all too consistent. It seems he only concentrates on the hitters once he's loaded the bases. Drives me up a wall!
they very well still might have made this trade. Even if they had Miller instead of Chapman.
Oh, Betances has been consistent. He consistently comes in the game in the 8th, gets a strike out, but then somehow always manages to load the bases with walks and hits. Then he either pitches out of it or loses the game for us. And that unfortunately, is all too consistent. It seems he only concentrates on the hitters once he's loaded the bases. Drives me up a wall!
Fuuny, sounds just like Robertson. :-)
I expected Frazier to look like last year's version of Judge.
I assume you mean Clint, not Todd. We're going to have to get used to putting a "C" or a "T" in front of the name Frazier when we type from now on.
And I agree with you since I assume you mean Clint. He's getting a feel for major league pitching and playing in front of huge crowds and millions at home watching the game on TV. It's an adjustment. But he is very talented and will figure it all out. It happens with almost all rookies when they get called up for the first time. Choi is a bit of an aberration that probably won't last.
Framing this as a "Rutherford for Todd Frazier!" deal is utterly stupefying.
Feel free to not like the deal (for it isn't a no-brainer by any stretch), but if that's your angle, you're either being disingenuous or you just don't get it.
Also forgetting that Clarkin and Polo were Rule 5 eligible after season is mind numbing. They basically dealt Rutherford and 2 kids that were possibly gone in Rule 5 for essentially the 2 best bullpen arms available (based upon k/9) and a 3B with power. Also look up frazier's stats away from Chicago. Theyre not bad.
Robertson under contract thru next year, Kahnle under control until 202!! Add in Clippard being gone and im doing cartwheels.
Finally - im telling you theyre higher on Florial than Rutherford.
Can't argue with Cashman's recent successes, but I wish he could have found a way to keep Blake Rutherford. He was really coming on strong for the RiverDogs, he won a game this week with a walk-off homer. He's been stealing a few bases too. At 6'3" he could carry a little more than his current 195-200lbs.
who the yanks promoted over fraizer. He can stick in center as well as florial coming and Mateo bouncing back. And if Hicks comes back and hits like he was before he got hurt, he is part of the future also.
Yanks need to move Gardner or Ellsbury if hicks comes back and both have to go before next season.
Kinda jealous what the Yanks are doing. Not a fan of Frazier but he is a good clubhouse guy that occasionally can hit the long ball. Kahnle is really good. He pitched an inning earlier this year at the stadium and struck the side out on 9 or 10 pitches. The Yanks (Cashman) get it. I think Yankee fans should have enough faith in their FO that they aren't overpaying,etc...On the other hand, as a NYM fan, you sit there and wonder what Alderson is thinking. We need to get into the game soon...real soon.
Mets got bit with injury bug hard...can't really judge anything with that team this year. You have 3 Solid starters in DeGrom, Matz and Thor, iffy on Wheeler. Harvey lost it.
Never understood the Murphy trade. Guy had arguably the greatest post-season I've ever seen, and you trade him that year. I'm not trying to get at this but....it's the Mets.
Nice post turd.
remind me again who the Mets traded Murphy for?
Wasn't a trade, my mistake. Mets gave him a one-qualifying for 15 mil. Washington gave him a better offer, so Mets got a first round compensory pick. Still, all everyone talked about was how the new hitting coach fixed his swing at the end of the regular season, and it's showing now. Last year he hit .347, this year .344.
I think Darvish is a good fit. Do you guys think a package centered around Mateo is enough and if so, would you consider it? I think we have a championship caliber lineup, bullpen and we are really missing a top of the rotation starter. If Texas starts to fall a little here, they will sell and Darvish is only a rental.
I definitely think Frazier is a long time MLB player, my skepticism is that he will a very good one. As I said, I hope you guys can laugh in my face about what an idiot i am when Frazier is a star.
Are you talking about Clint or Todd?
If it's Todd then..
He is a lifetime 247 hitter. He is hitting 207 this year. How is that good??? He is NOT a good hitter. People fall for his power. That's it. He better not get a big contract from us next year. He should be 1 and done.
Todd is an imperfect but solid hitter. Low BA, but good OBP differential and big SLG. On his worst day, he should be about a 50 point OPS improvement over Headley.
He is unlikely to get any new contract from NYY. If he does, it will be a one year deal at a very manageable number to play a platoon role. More likely that they don't sign him, IMO.
Todd is an imperfect but solid hitter. Low BA, but good OBP differential and big SLG. On his worst day, he should be about a 50 point OPS improvement over Headley.
He is unlikely to get any new contract from NYY. If he does, it will be a one year deal at a very manageable number to play a platoon role. More likely that they don't sign him, IMO.
As much as I dislike him, I think there is a very good chance Todd Frazier resigns with the Yanks. He's a lifelong Yankee fan, is supposedly a great clubhouse guy and is at least a decent right handed bat that can play 3rd and 1st. And Holliday is likely gone so I can absolutely see Frazier filling that veteran role beyond this year.
I wouldn't pull my hair out about it as long as Headley is moved and they only sign him for a year.
Though at this point, they need a lefty bat significantly more than righty. How times have changed.
The thing that worries me is he'd best suited to a bench power bat / platoon-against-lefties guy. But he's exactly the type of guy that Girardi will get attached to and trot out there 8 games out of 10.
A good buddy of mine is a season ticket holder for the Reds. He says Fraziers biggest strength is hitting the ball the other way. Cincinnati has a short right field just like YS and he says that's how Frazier had so much success in Cincy. Chicago is a much bigger right field. So maybe, just maybe...
Giving up any prospects, I have been clear about that. But Frazier is getting an unfair rap on this thread by some. He is hitting the ball hard at close to the same rate he always has, so he is having one of those unlucky seasons, I would not be surprised t all if this trade sparks his return to prominence, this is a class act guy, and someone to cheer for, let's not get stupid here. He was not great last season, but still hit 41 bombs. I think Todd can easily be a .250 hitter with 30-35 homers for the Yanks, and that is not a bad player when you consider he has a good glove. So take it easy on knocking Frazier before you make yourself out to be an idiot. he is going to help a lot more then what people think.
People are fooling themselves if they think he's replacing Headley
A good buddy of mine is a season ticket holder for the Reds. He says Fraziers biggest strength is hitting the ball the other way. Cincinnati has a short right field just like YS and he says that's how Frazier had so much success in Cincy. Chicago is a much bigger right field. So maybe, just maybe...
Trying to sell myself on this!
Oh its real. Go check out his splits. He's been a better road hitter both seasons he's been on the White Sox and a better home hitter when he played in Cinci. It's not just this season.
Frazier has been so up and down. His June was great the rest of the year, lousy. DRob is a good return addition and if Kahnle is not a half season mirage, he could be the best asset we get in this deal.
Frazier will absolutely be the full time third baseman if he hits and Headley doesn't, there is now competition, and to think this means that Cooper is not playing, that is also wrong, they will all get time and the players that perform the best will continue to play, maybe all of them will play at a high level now, then joe will platoon them all. This is not a deal that sets anything in stone, this will unfold as the season progresses, and anyone who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves. The Yanks want to win, and the best players will play.
RE: If true, this is a heck of a troll job by Frazier.
Cooper and Choi will compete for playing time(I like Coopers swing!). Ellsbury as a 4th OF and Torreyes as a utility. That's a championship caliber lineup for sure.
RE: RE: If true, this is a heck of a troll job by Frazier.
Even if he tears up the minors, Rutherford won't make it to the bigs for at least 2 years. By that time - in 2019, if Brett Gardner leaves as a free agent, our under contract OFs ahead of Rutherford would still be:
Judge
Hicks
Frazier
Fowler
Ellsbury
Florial
Keep in mind - Mateo may be converted to outfield.
By 2019, we'd also have had our chance at making another trade or courting free agents like Bryce Harper, Charlie Blackmon, Lonnie Chisenhall, or AJ Pollock, and the list goes on.
Oh by the way, since being called up to AAA earlier this year - Jake Cave is hitting .349 with 8 homers in 29 games, and Billy McKinney is hitting .352 with 4 homers in 14 games.
What else could we have gotten for Rutherford. Our system is stacked, but rutherford is a legit prospect. That being said, if you don't think the Yankees did their due diligence and tested his value around the league, you are nuts.
RE: RE: If the Yankees decide to trade Betances in the offseason,
they can probably get a prospect as good as, if not better than Rutherford, no?
Yep and it seems very plausible.
I would bet that the Yanks are already in discussions on what they could get for Betances and instead of a high end prospect, they are probably thinking along the lines of starting pitcher....not only because that is a need, but because they already have more prospects than they can keep.
We are loaded with prospects and after this last draft, are also loaded with a ton of pitching prospects - some who will become MLB pitchers (Kap, Sheffield, Adams, Abreu, Acavedo, Tate, this year's 1st rounder Schmidt, etc). This trade yesterday indicates they are going for it now, not later. We already made the prospect haul last year. Now what is needed is a reliable SP to spell time until a couple of the youngsters are ready to prove themselves in the bigs.
Regardless, I think Betances is probably on shaky ground with the Yanks as his role just got reduced and he's been too erratic lately. There's also a little bit of bad blood between him and the front office after last year's arbitration battle in which Delin thought he should get "closer" money, but instead got paid like a setup guy that he is.
Betances has a bad couple of weeks, so let's trade him because now they have Tommy Kahnle, who was practically the definition of replacement level until this season?
Also, if you have so little faith that Betances will get back on track, why on earth would another team want him as the centerpiece of a deal for a starter?
Betances has a bad couple of weeks, so let's trade him because now they have Tommy Kahnle, who was practically the definition of replacement level until this season?
Also, if you have so little faith that Betances will get back on track, why on earth would another team want him as the centerpiece of a deal for a starter?
I am 100% against trading Betances, but the Yankees being a bit down on him has no bearing on what other teams may think. I'm sure the Yanks wouldn't be calling teams up saying "hey, we are fed up with Betances, how about you give us your ace for him"! There could certainly be a process in negotiations where they would at some point float his name out there, and see where it goes.
But again, trading Betances now after solidifying the pen wouldn't make any sense.
RE: RE: If true, this is a heck of a troll job by Frazier.
When Frazier came up I was hoping that he would choose #77, so that he could complement #99 in the outfield. It's a lot sexier than #30.
Saw a comment somewhere (maybe even on this thread, but too lazy to backtrack to see where I read it) that Frazier said that his choice of #77 had nothing to do with Mantle...so one can assume that the number change to #77 is happening.
Betances has a bad couple of weeks, so let's trade him because now they have Tommy Kahnle, who was practically the definition of replacement level until this season?
Also, if you have so little faith that Betances will get back on track, why on earth would another team want him as the centerpiece of a deal for a starter?
Your argument is simultaneously premised upon: (1) Todd Frazier sucking this season; and (2) Kahnle only being good this season. You see how that might be a tad inconsistent?
It's not that they traded Rutherford, it's what they traded him for.
I understand your frustration and I completely agree. The Yankees have the deepest collection of OF prospects in baseball but just because you are dealing with a surplus doesn't mean the return should be lower. I know Rutherford is at least 2 years away but I am still very surprised that they traded him for this package. Now had he been the centerpiece for Gray and Alonso then that would have made more sense to me.
Your argument is simultaneously premised upon: (1) Todd Frazier sucking this season; and (2) Kahnle only being good this season. You see how that might be a tad inconsistent?
Todd Frazier wasn't particularly good last season, either, despite the 40 homers. Guy has had a sub-.310 OBP since 2014. His career OBP is .318.
Yanks have an open spot on 25 man & 40 man roster now
1- Not sure why people are analyzing Frazier so much. He's not the main part of the deal. He's just a stopgap for a team where their 1B have a combined OPS that's second to last in the MLB. Is Frazier a stud? No, but his OPS is 100 bps higher already despite his struggles. Frazier WAR this year is +1.8. Yankee combined WAR between Bird, Austin, Choi, Carter, and Cooper is NEGATIVE 1.3 this year. That's a huge jump. As long as he continues his current pace, he'll be better than what the Yankees have been putting out there. He'll be gone next year anyway.
2- Kahnle is definitely having a breakout year so while that may be frightening, he has slowly been on an upward trajectory last few years and is still young. In other words, it's not that crazy that a young guy just got better and is now finally putting it together. Having him cost controlled next few years is huge
3- Robertson is signed until next year and is having a pretty sensational season. WHIP below 1. 9+ K/9 innings and ERA below 2.50. This will help a lot.
4- By having a strong BP, Green or Warren could move to the rotation. Yankees would then kill multiple birds with one stone.
5- Really sucks losing Rutherford, but Yankees have multiple young OF ahead of him in the minors right now. Plus, if Rutherford can't play center, that limits his ability to impact the Yankees even more.
I get why people are concerned but a lot of overreaction.
Maybe I'm missing something. They DFAd Chou and Refsnyder and sent Shreveport down. That's 3 guys. They are adding the 3 from the trade. Where's the open spot?
Jack Curry to be right, but I don't know how there's an opening on the 25 man roster. The lose Clippard, Shrieve & Choi from the 25 (Refs I don't believe was on the 25 going into yesterday) and they gain the 3 White Sox. But as far as I can tell Refs wasn't on the 25 yesterday, but Jack Curry normally is right on these things.
Maybe I'm missing something. They DFAd Chou and Refsnyder and sent Shreveport down. That's 3 guys. They are adding the 3 from the trade. Where's the open spot?
Yes - it was for the purpose of money management going both ways as the Yanks added to their salary base and trading Clippard moves money off the books
Around noon local time. Girardi believes that all 3 are available to him today, and doesn't sound like Chapman is available. So my guess is DRob is closer today.
Jon Heyman Twitter - ( New Window )
I'd rent Frazier , I prefer Andujar but Frazier can hit 8th on my team.
Would be even better if it meant no more Headley but I can see a platoon or maybe just DFA Chase.
Frazier is also a Jersey guy and also went to Rutgers as well.
Maybe coming home would help him not hit .200
Please let this go away.
Please let this go away.
This trade is about prospects and only about prospects. I wonder if CHI is trying to play Bos/NY against each other. If so, I hope the Red Sox get their asses kicked and by the hugest margin possible.
A little bit misleading. While Kahnle's current contract runs out at the end of the season, he has 3 years of team control left.
It just makes the most sense
I think that's an overpay tho.. Mateo is a great prospect..
None of the players given to us have that type of value really.
Maybe Robertson but def not Frazier
Frazier can play 1B as well as 3B. Think he would primarily be looked at as the 1B the rest of the year and spell Headley at 3B at times. The black hole at 1B is way more of a problem than Headley at 3B. I was interested in giving Cooper more of a look at 1B, but I guess there is a reason he was in the minors and was traded straight up for a lefty JAG reliever in Webb.
Please no that's terrifying. Carter's swing gives me chills.
I just hope we didn't overpay if this is all true
I think this would be optimal. Alonso could be like Tino Martinez and Gray upgrades their starting pitching.
I just hope we didn't overpay if this is all true
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Headley has a respectable .790 OPS vs righties, but about .500 vs lefties. Frazier has an OPS over .800 vs lefties. This would create an obvious platoon and gives them a better bench bat than we've had all season
I just hope we didn't overpay if this is all true
he's coming here if the deal goes through to play 1b.
I stand corrected - I guess the point about a better bat against lefties still makes some sense. But I'm worried about the cost
This season has been the product of how well the youngsters have been playing. I don't get trading for vets to disrupt the good vibe, even if the season is slipping away.
I could live with Tyler Wade, Dustin Fowler, but it feels like it will be much more.
Could be. I mean unless Chicago made some moves before the game, which they clearly did not, they may need the arms in the pen tonight.
That being said, I hope this doesn't go down. Please Lord, let the Sox overpay for these guys. Not us.
I've been talking about shopping Rutherford but I would not be ok moving him for a rental and middle relief
Better be wrong.
He doesn't suck
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Todd Frazier fucking sucks.
He doesn't suck
31 years old, .318 career OBP, mediocre at best defense. What a star. Totally worth parting with a top 100 prospect.
He's Chris Carter redux.
I have Mateo and Andujar ahead of Rutherford as much as I love him
Robertson in the 8th
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Todd Frazier fucking sucks.
He doesn't suck
Yes he does suck.
McKinney wasn't gonna do it lol.
Frazier will help and > Headley.
Robertson will help a TON. Will need more Tums tho
I have Mateo and Andujar ahead of Rutherford as much as I love him
Glad you're not our GM
We are not ready to compete. Hang on to the prospects. Why reverse course now?
Our bullpen will now be STACKED
GRADE A: Chapman, Betances, Robertson
Grade B: Green
Grade C: Warren, New Guy, whoever else
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Say what you will about Cashman, he almost never gets fleeced like this. This is a massive overpay.
you're crying over some kid in A ball for God's sake.
Better some kid in A ball with some promise than a pile of shit like Frazier.
We are not ready to compete. Hang on to the prospects. Why reverse course now?
Exactly! These three are not moving the needle one millimeter. They are not winning the World Series because they acquired these three. They are not game changers. And in Fraziers case, he's absolutely dreadful. And he's gone after this season anyways. Come on Cashman.
But I think we all hoped one of them would be part of a deal for a front end SP, not spare parts
Moncada has been playing 2nd all season
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to add Yoan Moncada in fantasy??
Moncada has been playing 2nd all season
Since the White Sox traded Frazier won't they be calling him up?
Did the trade go through?
Can never have too many elite relief pitchers.
We will have him next season also. #Big3
Our bullpen will now be STACKED
GRADE A: Chapman, Betances, Robertson
Grade B: Green
Grade C: Warren, New Guy, whoever else
Warren is much better than C. He is over Green at this point.
Todd fucking Frazier. Just think about that for a second. Oh, and a RP that they decided wasn't worth resigning just a couple of years ago. I guess they should have just resigned him, huh?
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Say what you will about Cashman, he almost never gets fleeced like this. This is a massive overpay.
you're crying over some kid in A ball for God's sake.
The Yankees absolutely stole him. Rutherford was considered the top pick (or at worst, in the top 3 picks) of the entire draft last year, but he was going to college and nothing could stop him so all the teams drafting in front of the Yanks passed on him because he wouldn't sign anyway. But when his favorite team since a little kid - the Yankees - drafted him anyway, he chose to forego college.
He's going to be a 5-tool player and a lefty to boot. Enough speed to play CF and steal 20-30 bases a year with a bazooka arm. The kid is going to be a star. I just wish it was going to be with the Yankees. Heartbreaking!
Discussing Alonso - ( New Window )
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In comment 13531783 Greg from LI said:
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Say what you will about Cashman, he almost never gets fleeced like this. This is a massive overpay.
you're crying over some kid in A ball for God's sake.
The Yankees absolutely stole him. Rutherford was considered the top pick (or at worst, in the top 3 picks) of the entire draft last year, but he was going to college and nothing could stop him so all the teams drafting in front of the Yanks passed on him because he wouldn't sign anyway. But when his favorite team since a little kid - the Yankees - drafted him anyway, he chose to forego college.
He's going to be a 5-tool player and a lefty to boot. Enough speed to play CF and steal 20-30 bases a year with a bazooka arm. The kid is going to be a star. I just wish it was going to be with the Yankees. Heartbreaking!
That isn't accurate. Rutherford fell because of his bonus demands and the fact that he was a 19 year old HS senior. He never said he wouldn't sign with any team other than the Yankees.
I know we haven't traded away propsects we regret, but it's too early to give up on Rutherford now.
We have enough B prospects to get this type of return from other teams. White Sox is really cleaning up on these trades.
Too soon for Tyler Clippard appreciation thread?
The bullpen has been a real problem. For all we know, Chapman is burned out for this year and burning him a second jepordizes him for awhile.
Betances maybe a head case given his unhappiness with arbitration.
Getting a good relief pitcher before other teams know you really do need one badly is a very smart move.
Getting a MLB proven RP for a guy who is a prospect 3 years away from fitting into a crowded OF ? One who you might lose in Rule 5?
If this is a real trade...I don't think it is so once sided or stupid at all
with all the teams desperate for closers, the Yanks now have at least 3 what are they worth? What championship caliber team needs a closer and might be willing to pay through the nose for Chapman or Betances?
That's all fine - two middle relievers and a shitty lumberjack rental is a lousy way to relieve that glut of OFs.
It's always helpful to have guys waiting in the wings. Injuries happen, careers take downturns...you just never know when you're gonna need another good young position player. Trading a top prospect for rentals isn't ideal, imo.
with all the teams desperate for closers, the Yanks now have at least 3 what are they worth? What championship caliber team needs a closer and might be willing to pay through the nose for Chapman or Betances?
Excellent post.
I believe chappy has a no trade clause for years 1-3 if I'm not mistaken tho
You rockin the crotchless jobs tonight?
Sexxxxyyyyy, sexy.
He's thinking he wants to make the playoffs
Severino
Cc
Monty
Those 3 can pitch in the postseason. They only need 6 innings.. or 5.
I like D-Rob and Kahnle has been good, but I don't like Todd Frazier AT ALL. I'm not even against trading Blake in general, but I would really prefer to not be aggressive this season. And if we are, get YOUNG players in return.
If you are going to bring young pitchers along and slowly increase their innings...you need a deep bullpen.
If we had won 4 more games of the last 40 because of less blown saves....we would be tied or close to it.
Its not a go all out for now move and sell all we had in the minors...its a decent solid calculated risk. That's gonna happen when you have a stocked minor league.
Hey...remember when we would not trade Montero for anything less than the NL All Star Lineup?
I'm ok with it. Not going to win the Ws. But it would have had us tied for first if we had a Robertson all this season. Or next.
The wild care is going to come down to four games over the rest of the year. And next
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And leave my panties out of it, B!
You rockin the crotchless jobs tonight?
Sexxxxyyyyy, sexy.
Hey, you have a camera in my bedroom or something?
with all the teams desperate for closers, the Yanks now have at least 3 what are they worth? What championship caliber team needs a closer and might be willing to pay through the nose for Chapman or Betances?
Are they really "desperate" for a 31 year old hitter when clearly they're set up for the long term with a very young team? I thought they were a pretty good offensive club. Hitting would not have been my first thought for big needs.
But word is that the Sox set a high price for Kahnle. Including Rutherford is about fixing the bullpen and neither of those guys are not rentals
if Yankees determined that Rutherford isn't a CF it severely diminishes his value to the organization with all the corner OF we have. Florial likely moved ahead of him in the pecking order. I wanted a SP for him, but I can live with it
And Hicks.
Worth it.
And I agree with the 'hasn't developed as quickly' comment.
I disagree with the Harper for OF comment.
Don't need him ; why a headcase when the homegrown kids are talented and stable.
I just don't know about Frazier and giving up a young stud. Does Frazier give us much more than Cooper right now? It seems like a minimal upgrade unless Frazier starts dropping HRs all over the place.
I would have prefered to stay the course though. This is not the year to go all in.
Frazier will strike out in every key AB, who wants to bet?
Rutherford doesn't have any 55/60+ tools except for the hit tool, the Yanks prob thouht he'd hit 330 in low A and be in Tampa by now. Still, I just hate trading prospects for stopgaps and it's too early to sour on Blake.
12 HRs and a .850+ Ops in last 42 games tho
If you are going to bring young pitchers along and slowly increase their innings...you need a deep bullpen.
If we had won 4 more games of the last 40 because of less blown saves....we would be tied or close to it.
Its not a go all out for now move and sell all we had in the minors...its a decent solid calculated risk. That's gonna happen when you have a stocked minor league.
Hey...remember when we would not trade Montero for anything less than the NL All Star Lineup?
I'm ok with it. Not going to win the Ws. But it would have had us tied for first if we had a Robertson all this season. Or next.
The wild care is going to come down to four games over the rest of the year. And next
Bill is right. With a deep BP, they can contend. Drob, Betances and Chapman. Add Warren, Green and Holder or Heller in the 6th shortens the game another inning.
Its not a go all out for now move and sell all we had in the minors...its a decent solid calculated risk. That's gonna happen when you have a stocked minor league.
Hey...remember when we would not trade Montero for anything less than the NL All Star Lineup?
I'm ok with it. Not going to win the Ws. But it would have had us tied for first if we had a Robertson all this season. Or next.
But if we're not thinking we can win the WS, then what's the point of the deal? It's a complete "win now" move.` The Cubs have been making trades like this because they thought (and legitimately so) that they could win the World Series. Yes, we have an excellent farm system, but we're not "there" yet where a move like this is necessary.
I just think it was worth holding onto Rutherford and seeing if we could have at least moved him as part of a package for a frontline starter.
The Nats and Dodgers are legit.
They sure liked Fowler
making Rutherford a bit more of a luxury they could sell high.
usually cant get much for a guy playing A ball.
I just see a lot of sound logic in this move.
its a sport so who knows how it will play out. But Cashman is not being stupid
One last thing...maybe trading Rutherford is worth keeping two decent relievers from being in Boston for the next two years????
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this deal sucks. Trading top prospects for a 31 year old 3b hitting .216 and a 32-year old reliever. How is this better than what we have. These guys are spare parts for the short term, and certainly not missing pieces. WTF is Cash thinking?
He's thinking he wants to make the playoffs
Severino
Cc
Monty
Those 3 can pitch in the postseason. They only need 6 innings.. or 5.
Talking with my son about this today. Will Monty be available in the playoffs. What is his innings limit this year?
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You get a closer, the guy who was goimg to be the repkacement closer and a 35 HR bat that can play two positions, (and the comparisons to Carter are ridiculous) both of desperate need and you are moanong about an A ball kid.
with all the teams desperate for closers, the Yanks now have at least 3 what are they worth? What championship caliber team needs a closer and might be willing to pay through the nose for Chapman or Betances?
Are they really "desperate" for a 31 year old hitter when clearly they're set up for the long term with a very young team? I thought they were a pretty good offensive club. Hitting would not have been my first thought for big needs.
So Cris Carter and Headley have been tolerable for you this year?
They got that.
I just think it was worth holding onto Rutherford and seeing if we could have at least moved him as part of a package for a frontline starter.
Is there any feasible way Rutherford is even the second prospect in a trade that lands an ace?
I just think it was worth holding onto Rutherford and seeing if we could have at least moved him as part of a package for a frontline starter.
I was just looking at Rutherfords numbers and his power has stepped up a bit but only 2 HRs.
He would probly be at AA next year actually. Blake is probly MLB ready by either 2019 or 2020
But his Hr power is a ways away. I do wonder if he could be a good defensive CF tho and I still rate Fowler better but admit Rutherfords ceiling is higher. But shittt even Florial I rate higher then Blake
Yankees farm system is Stacked! And big trades are coming with the 40 man and what not.
Basically the only other thing they can do is trade a haul for a stud SP If one becomes available
I just think it was worth holding onto Rutherford and seeing if we could have at least moved him as part of a package for a frontline starter.
Well said. I agree with the last part but I can at least see the logic in the deal
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gets to live his dream of playing for the Yankees (though sad that Rutherford can't fulfill his).
I just think it was worth holding onto Rutherford and seeing if we could have at least moved him as part of a package for a frontline starter.
Is there any feasible way Rutherford is even the second prospect in a trade that lands an ace?
For a Chris Sale type Ace no way.
He would be the 3rd guy
We are all giddy over the glut of prospects now but after a few of this type of moves the system would be poor again.
None of the big IFA signees except for Florial has done anything. Our draft picks still miss more than they hit. System is good because of the trades last year. Let's not think we can afford to throw prospects away for rentals.
I'm not saying Rutherford was untouchable and if we were a "win now" team, I'd totally understand the move even if I didn't agree with it. Where I see this team in it's progression, we needed to be looking at a different group of players than the ones we're getting back.
I love Gary Cooper.
It does give them 3 legit closers and gets them back to the triad like last year even if Chapman is down a bit and DRob is a notch below Miller.
We are all giddy over the glut of prospects now but after a few of this type of moves the system would be poor again.
None of the big IFA signees except for Florial has done anything. Our draft picks still miss more than they hit. System is good because of the trades last year. Let's not think we can afford to throw prospects away for rentals.
It's not just for rentals! How many times does this need to be repeated?
They can even have Didi and Castro
Possible. He hasn't been the same pitcher since coming back from injury.
John Harper (Daily News) just said on SNY SportsNite that Chapman is a factor in this deal. Yanks are concerned about managing his workload down the stretch. Also said Yanks refused to include Rutherford in a Quintana deal, and that Clint Frazier's strong first impression may have had something to do with this.
They'll absolutely make difference this season. Enough to win the WS? almost surely not. But maybe enough to take the division. And two of the three pieces in the deal, probably the two Cashman values most, are not just rentals.
They dealt from a position of strength with Rutherford. Wish it'd been for a SP but I'm ok with it.
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If Chapman is hurt.
Possible. He hasn't been the same pitcher since coming back from injury.
It really goes back to Maddon burning him out in the World Series. And really, Yanks can't complain, buyer beware and all that. But it's becoming more clear they can't fully count on him this season. Hopefully he can get back to himself in time
This makes more sense.
The 3rd name is controlled till then.
Robertson will be here next season also
Rutherford wasn't gonna be here till 2020 most likely , though his potential is quite amazing I must admit
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If Chapman is hurt.
John Harper (Daily News) just said on SNY SportsNite that Chapman is a factor in this deal. Yanks are concerned about managing his workload down the stretch. Also said Yanks refused to include Rutherford in a Quintana deal, and that Clint Frazier's strong first impression may have had something to do with this.
I also wonder if the emergence of Hicks may have also had at least a little influence here as well.
He's been consistent 101. Normally he's 102-103 but clearly his usage late last season has caused a hangover. Hopefully he gets back to dominant form.
He's been consistent 101. Normally he's 102-103 but clearly his usage late last season has caused a hangover. Hopefully he gets back to dominant form.
He's been more in the 97-98 range touching 100-101, not the consistent 100+
I am not throwing a fit because Rutherford is gone, but I am afraid this might signal the Yanks are back to their old ways. And now we actually have legit prospects to come back and haunt us.
Florial > Rutherford imo.
It's arguable that Fowler would be better to trade but he's hurt, also has shown more. Rutherfords ceiling is a rich Fowler tho.
True, very true.
Happend with andrew Miller that way kind of ..
I know nothing about this guy honestly.
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on whether you believe in Kahnle or not. Just seems like a huge roll of the dice to think that a 28 year old nondescript relief pitcher turned into a star who will dominate for years to come, practically overnight.
True, very true.
Happend with andrew Miller that way kind of ..
I know nothing about this guy honestly.
Excellent Fangraphs article from last month on the changes Kanhle has made all-around to improve his velocity and control.
The Making of Tommy Kahnle - Fangraphs - ( New Window )
Only 7 walks to his 60 something Ks
He's blown saves tho..
I think he's our 6th inning guy with Green and Warren , DRob to the 7th or 8th
More moves coming though. This doesn't solve the 40 man problem. In fact it might even cause further need to make more moves or else lose some guys rule 5
Fair enough. I'm hyped up.
Wow. Sounds like it says something about how they feel about Betances right now, no?
Frazier can play a little 1B too and this would stop the Romine at first nonsense.
More
David Robertson has been informed that he's been traded to New York.
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That if this deal goes thru Dellin will move out of the 8th inning role and Robertson will take over. Dellin will basically pitch anywhere when needed. Interesting.
Wow. Sounds like it says something about how they feel about Betances right now, no?
I get what you're saying but I don't necessarily think it says anything about Betances. I've never liked confining him to one set inning. He's been at his most valuable when he can come in at any time and often help get out of jams. Curry compared it to how the Indians use Andrew Miller. I like it
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In comment 13531990 B in ALB said:
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That if this deal goes thru Dellin will move out of the 8th inning role and Robertson will take over. Dellin will basically pitch anywhere when needed. Interesting.
Wow. Sounds like it says something about how they feel about Betances right now, no?
I get what you're saying but I don't necessarily think it says anything about Betances. I've never liked confining him to one set inning. He's been at his most valuable when he can come in at any time and often help get out of jams. Curry compared it to how the Indians use Andrew Miller. I like it
Betances has been our 8th inning guy for how long? To just move him right away for someone coming in I would think has to say something, even if he is better used coming in whenever.
Maybe its a combo of both? Use Betances in a way he's better used at, coming in whenever. And give someone who was once here and has had success and is experienced the 8th inning? Two birds with one stone. It can't hurt to try.
Severino/ Tanaka / CC / Montgomery / ??????
We need another starter, but I think the cost is too high.
Severino/ Tanaka / CC / Montgomery / ??????
We need another starter, but I think the cost is too high.
How about Green?
Severino/ Tanaka / CC / Montgomery / ??????
You're leaving out Warren, Green and Shreve in the pen, all of whom have been good at times and excellent at others.
Mitchell is the 5th starter.
They're not getting rid of him, but he'a a part-time player now.
Trying to figure out who gets sent down with these moves - we're adding 3 to the 25 and subtracting one, so two need to be moved. Probably Cessa and either Choi or Cooper.
RP: Chapman, Dellin, Robertson, Kahnle, Warren, Green, Shreve
INF: Didi, Castro, Frazier, Headley, Toe, Cooper
OF: Judge, Frazier, Ells, Gardy
DH: Holliday
C: Sanchez, Romine
Wow. Sounds like it says something about how they feel about Betances right now, no?
I don't think so. Tethering relief pitchers to specific innings is a dopey fucking thing to do and not keeping Dellin as "the 8th inning guy" will actually make him more valuable.
Right. Won't shock me if both Cessa and Choi are DFA'd.
Refsnyder is worthless. He can't hit in the majors and every position he plays, he plays poorly. Frazier can play 1B in addition to 3B. So he thankfully would never be playing 1B anymore. And Wade as leaped Refsnyder as the utility guy who can play IF/OF. Wade can play more positions (SS and 3B), is a very good fielder, and younger with a higher ceiling.
Refsnyder is worthless. He can't hit in the majors and every position he plays, he plays poorly. Frazier can play 1B in addition to 3B. So he thankfully would never be playing 1B anymore. And Wade as leaped Refsnyder as the utility guy who can play IF/OF. Wade can play more positions (SS and 3B), is a very good fielder, and younger with a higher ceiling.
I'm pro letting Ref go as well.
+1.
Its not every day you make a trade for two good pitchers and send back a bad one. You can bitch about Headley , Ellsbury and 1B all you want, Clippard is the reason we're not in first place. In addition to the half dozen or so games he's blown, how often did Betances have to come in early to bail him out ?.
I am so glad to have Robertson back, Kahnle looks solid too. As far as I'm concerned, if Frazier is any good its gravy. Cashman addressed our biggest need: the bullpen
Link - ( New Window )
Mets got bit with injury bug hard...can't really judge anything with that team this year. You have 3 Solid starters in DeGrom, Matz and Thor, iffy on Wheeler. Harvey lost it.
Never understood the Murphy trade. Guy had arguably the greatest post-season I've ever seen, and you trade him that year. I'm not trying to get at this but....it's the Mets.
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Kinda jealous what the Yanks are doing. Not a fan of Frazier but he is a good clubhouse guy that occasionally can hit the long ball. Kahnle is really good. He pitched an inning earlier this year at the stadium and struck the side out on 9 or 10 pitches. The Yanks (Cashman) get it. I think Yankee fans should have enough faith in their FO that they aren't overpaying,etc...On the other hand, as a NYM fan, you sit there and wonder what Alderson is thinking. We need to get into the game soon...real soon.
Mets got bit with injury bug hard...can't really judge anything with that team this year. You have 3 Solid starters in DeGrom, Matz and Thor, iffy on Wheeler. Harvey lost it.
Never understood the Murphy trade. Guy had arguably the greatest post-season I've ever seen, and you trade him that year. I'm not trying to get at this but....it's the Mets.
Nice post turd.
remind me again who the Mets traded Murphy for?
That was a dope team, but also remember in '96 it was Mo in 7 and 8 and then Wetteland in 9 (when he was apparently contractually obligated to put at least 1 man on base to make it interesting).
p.s.--I also wonder if this is a prelude to another trade that will include one or two from their bullpen and net them a starting pitcher. You don't need four pitchers with "closer ability" in your pen (although who knows, there was a time when it was thought you didn't need two closers in your pen).
...if you're a White Sox fan.
This trade didn't fill the team's biggest hole, but filling little holes can make just enough of a difference that instead of hosting a wild card game that's all or nothing for them, the Yankees are hosting a Red Sox team that had to start Sale in the wild card game.
The issue that raises eyebrows for me is the fact that the Yanks barely waited a year to trade Rutherford- especially after the big deal they made about him falling to them. What changed that made him expendable in their minds?
The fact that Robertson and Kahnle were let go by the Yankees seasons ago is not relevant. They always liked Robertson, it was about money. Kahnle has transformed himself quite a bit since then; different player from the one they cast aside.
Chapman
Betances
Robertson
Kahnle
Warren
Green
Shreve
That's a crew that can bail you out of a couple 4-5 inning starts.
I do wonder if they look to stretch out one of Green/Warren. Cessa isn't long for the 25-man, and could be gone altogether soon. For the immediate term, I'd like to see them give Mitchell 2-3 more stabs at the 5th spot (barring a trade for a SP)
Also frees up the idea of trading Betances, who is the kind of piece needed for a big time SP.
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Rutherford wasn't untradable, but why blow a premium asset like that and not get a legit starting pitcher in return? ChiSox really have an interesting farm to follow now
The issue that raises eyebrows for me is the fact that the Yanks barely waited a year to trade Rutherford- especially after the big deal they made about him falling to them. What changed that made him expendable in their minds?
I share your opinion. I know that Rutherford is a couple years away, but we haven't even begun to see his potential.
My only thought about the reasoning is that Rutherford (as good - even great - as he is) was being groomed for CF as LF and RF are going to be Frazier and Judge for the next decade or more. Rutherford is fast (in spite of his size) and was projected to be a 30-30 guy, but maybe not fast enough for CF.
In the end, I think the Yanks know they gave up a high ceiling gem, but for whatever reasons, thought this move will benefit the Yanks. It appears the Yanks are going to make the moves to get to the playoffs - the big crapshoot in which any team can take it all if they are hot at the right time, but you have to be in the playoffs to give it a shot. And we know the Baby Bombers can get hot - very hot. It's just a matter of when they do. I think their confidence is shaken a little since they took off like a rocket, but discovered the pain of untimely injuries and slumps.
I hope Rutherford does well in his new role and will be rooting for him except when he plays against the Yanks
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I'm just saying I don't look at it as a demotion
Maybe its a combo of both? Use Betances in a way he's better used at, coming in whenever. And give someone who was once here and has had success and is experienced the 8th inning? Two birds with one stone. It can't hurt to try.
Sure I can see that. Well said
I get that thy're worried about Chapman so they brought back Robertson, and if all healthy, Betances can fill an Andrew Miller Cleveland-like role, coming in whenever there is a fire.
I would rather have stayed put, used Caleb Smith some more, and kept Rutherford, because there is no guarantee that Fowler comes back as the same player after that horrid knee injury. The best thing about this deal is that it got Clippard off the roster, but they could have just DFAd him or dumped him on an NL contender.
-As some have mentioned Frazier was a secondary part of the deal, a rental corner bat to hopefully be an upgrade over what we are sending out there.
-the real key to this deal was the RP's. As I've said in many threads to the "awww shucks who cares if we are playing awful, the future is so bright!" crowd The real concern during this stretch has been Chappy and Betances because they are a big part of that future the next few years. This trade signals to me that Cash and the organization has lost some confidence in them going forward. Chappy has a long term deal, so he's not going anywhere, but I think this deal may start the progression and transition away from Betances.
Second, regarding how far from MLB ready Rutherford really was. Just as in finance discounted future cash flow and risk adjusted net present value is very important in valuing assets, we need to keep in mind that potential within a 1-2 year window has a much much higher probability of success than equal rated potential 3-4 years away.
This is especially true if you have young players at the MLB players ( Judge and Frazier) and alternatives in the farm system.
Just as we constantly debate the blend of need and best player available that dominates our thinking in NY Giants drafting commentary; we need to develop a blended approach somewhat between "all in for this year" and " bet on the potential of the prospects".
The risk adjusted calculus of betting on potential far away and the Rule 5 reality moves the framework for evaluating trades to no more than 2-3 years out ( once you have seen a brand new prospect in the system for a year).
Guys you know better after a one year sample size post draft but that still sit three years away or have less than good star MLB potential....are trade-able assets for average or better MLB players within the 1-3 year window.
They have his medicals, they have his make-up, they have his coach-ability. They have Chapmans loss of velocity within the last year. They know Betances control and inability to hold runners on makes him a tough 8th inning risk but a weapon if you still have a few at bats left on nights he is wild.
I think the team is better over the next 3 years.
We all may be over valuing prospects because Sanchez and Judge all of a sudden "got it" and showed that can happen. So can a Kaprelian and a Bird narrative. Or a Montero
Frazier has hit 91 HR's over the past 2 and a half seasons, Headley has hit 28 and Frazier's defensive advanced metrics are light years better than Headley. Of course Frazier K's too much and his BA sucks but in the past 3 seasons he's struck out about 370 times, Headley 340 times. If you think they are the same player I don't know what to say. Headley may be the worst everyday 3b in the AL.
Secondly, Ruthorford is in low A and while he is definitely a legit prospect, a lot can happen in the 3 years from now until he's potentially MLB ready. Potentially.
The Yankees have a shot. This isn't the final product, but you add a starter to this team and we have as good of a shot as anyone. Best lineup, best bullpen and a staff that has the potential. This team has always gone for it when they were this close and they will do that again, while still keeping an eye on the future. We are loaded in the minors and we can afford a move like this.
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have a Frazier, his name is Chase Headley.
Frazier has hit 91 HR's over the past 2 and a half seasons, Headley has hit 28 and Frazier's defensive advanced metrics are light years better than Headley. Of course Frazier K's too much and his BA sucks but in the past 3 seasons he's struck out about 370 times, Headley 340 times. If you think they are the same player I don't know what to say. Headley may be the worst everyday 3b in the AL.
He's not worth a top flight prospect like Rutherford. .210 is .210. He's not turning them into a WS favorite. And stuff your your snide remarks up your fucking ass.
As I stew about losing Rutherford, there is a glimmer of vengeful enjoyment knowing the Sox lost out, for which I am sure they are pissed. Had Boston made the deal, it probably would have made them a lock for winning the division for the next couple of years.
Also, I have been off the wagon on the Yanks pursuing Harper (and frankly, still am), but I think that issue comes back into play now. Personally, I hope we go all in on Machado and maybe even get Andrew Miller back. With all the money coming off the books and next years stellar free agent class, the Yanks can make some serious moves to be a lock for contention for the next half decade.
Or maybe Blake Rutherford ends up not being for real. Saw some perspective from the other side that the White Sox really didn't get enough. The other two prospects are essentially lottery tickets. So it really boils down to Rutherford for all three. He better be good or the deal looks bad for Chicago.
Works both ways.
Kahnle has been one of the best relievers in baseball this season. He replaces one of the worst in clippard. And he's team controlled for the next three seasons.
It also rankles me that they didn't want to pay Robertson $12 million per to be their closer, but now trade for him so they can pay him $12 million to set up. Don't get me wrong, I've always been a fan of Robertson, but it just seems like a silly way to operate.
Feel free to not like the deal (for it isn't a no-brainer by any stretch), but if that's your angle, you're either being disingenuous or you just don't get it.
Well, at least it's not a Buhner for Phelps deal.
Time will tell if this trade works out. There's high risk in every trade in every sport. If the Yanks get in the playoffs and get hot and win it all - Cashman will seem like a genius. If they continue to struggle like they have the last month, Cash will be looking for a job and we will hear fans bitching and moaning about this deal for the next decade.
It also rankles me that they didn't want to pay Robertson $12 million per to be their closer, but now trade for him so they can pay him $12 million to set up. Don't get me wrong, I've always been a fan of Robertson, but it just seems like a silly way to operate.
Not re-signing Robertson netted them an extra first round pick and freed them up to get Andrew Miller though. And we all know the package that Miller brought back
Feel free to not like the deal (for it isn't a no-brainer by any stretch), but if that's your angle, you're either being disingenuous or you just don't get it.
It was more like a Clint Frazier for Rutherford trade as I said, because if we kept Miller we don't make this trade.
You've found Frazier to be unimpressive so far in the big leagues? Interesting.
Cashman isn't going anywhere because if he was held accountable for the amount of resources he has versus what he has produced this century, he would have been fired long ago.
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Everyone raves about Frazier, I find him and his swing to be unimpressive. I think someone said it before, simply because Sanchez and Judge have done well, that doesn't mean all our prospects are not tradeable. Rutherford trade is a direct result of making one trade too many last year. we ended up with a worse reliever and now Frazier needs to be better than Rutherford over their career or these two trades will be awful.
You've found Frazier to be unimpressive so far in the big leagues? Interesting.
Yes.
OPS over 1.000 (without taking his walks yet) going into last night's game where he hit almost everything hard. Turned around a 99 mph fastball up for a walk off home run against one of the best closers in the NL a week and a half ago. Shown great baserunning instincts.
His swing is slightly unorthodox, though he's mentioned already making some adjustments. His talent is evident and he's already contributed significantly.
Your logic on this deal is quite warped
It's simple logic, really. Frazier is going to be a MLB ballplayer, and I pray I am wrong, but he doesn't scream future all-star to me. Now, to be fair, I have no idea how Rutherford will turn out either, my point is the way to judge this trade in some ways is how the Clint Frazier and Blake Rutherford ultimately pan out. There is a concept of cause and effect, no?
OPS over 1.000 (without taking his walks yet) going into last night's game where he hit almost everything hard. Turned around a 99 mph fastball up for a walk off home run against one of the best closers in the NL a week and a half ago. Shown great baserunning instincts.
His swing is slightly unorthodox, though he's mentioned already making some adjustments. His talent is evident and he's already contributed significantly.
Your logic on this deal is quite warped
This is correct. Essex has been very vocal about his disdain for the Miller trade since it happened. Frazier has no chance with him. He's already made his mind up on him. Long before he ever seen him play.
Oh by the way, Sheffield looks very good too and will hopefully be a key cog in the rotation within the next couple of years. But I'm sure he doesn't impress Essex either.
And before I brought Todd Frazier here, I would have let Andujar play and let Headley sit, be a bcakup 1b/3b.
Oh, Betances has been consistent. He consistently comes in the game in the 8th, gets a strike out, but then somehow always manages to load the bases with walks and hits. Then he either pitches out of it or loses the game for us. And that unfortunately, is all too consistent. It seems he only concentrates on the hitters once he's loaded the bases. Drives me up a wall!
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they very well still might have made this trade. Even if they had Miller instead of Chapman.
Oh, Betances has been consistent. He consistently comes in the game in the 8th, gets a strike out, but then somehow always manages to load the bases with walks and hits. Then he either pitches out of it or loses the game for us. And that unfortunately, is all too consistent. It seems he only concentrates on the hitters once he's loaded the bases. Drives me up a wall!
Fuuny, sounds just like Robertson. :-)
I assume you mean Clint, not Todd. We're going to have to get used to putting a "C" or a "T" in front of the name Frazier when we type from now on.
And I agree with you since I assume you mean Clint. He's getting a feel for major league pitching and playing in front of huge crowds and millions at home watching the game on TV. It's an adjustment. But he is very talented and will figure it all out. It happens with almost all rookies when they get called up for the first time. Choi is a bit of an aberration that probably won't last.
Feel free to not like the deal (for it isn't a no-brainer by any stretch), but if that's your angle, you're either being disingenuous or you just don't get it.
Also forgetting that Clarkin and Polo were Rule 5 eligible after season is mind numbing. They basically dealt Rutherford and 2 kids that were possibly gone in Rule 5 for essentially the 2 best bullpen arms available (based upon k/9) and a 3B with power. Also look up frazier's stats away from Chicago. Theyre not bad.
Robertson under contract thru next year, Kahnle under control until 202!! Add in Clippard being gone and im doing cartwheels.
Finally - im telling you theyre higher on Florial than Rutherford.
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Yanks need to move Gardner or Ellsbury if hicks comes back and both have to go before next season.
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In comment 13532023 brunswick said:
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Kinda jealous what the Yanks are doing. Not a fan of Frazier but he is a good clubhouse guy that occasionally can hit the long ball. Kahnle is really good. He pitched an inning earlier this year at the stadium and struck the side out on 9 or 10 pitches. The Yanks (Cashman) get it. I think Yankee fans should have enough faith in their FO that they aren't overpaying,etc...On the other hand, as a NYM fan, you sit there and wonder what Alderson is thinking. We need to get into the game soon...real soon.
Mets got bit with injury bug hard...can't really judge anything with that team this year. You have 3 Solid starters in DeGrom, Matz and Thor, iffy on Wheeler. Harvey lost it.
Never understood the Murphy trade. Guy had arguably the greatest post-season I've ever seen, and you trade him that year. I'm not trying to get at this but....it's the Mets.
Nice post turd.
remind me again who the Mets traded Murphy for?
Wasn't a trade, my mistake. Mets gave him a one-qualifying for 15 mil. Washington gave him a better offer, so Mets got a first round compensory pick. Still, all everyone talked about was how the new hitting coach fixed his swing at the end of the regular season, and it's showing now. Last year he hit .347, this year .344.
Dude is having a Bautista-like late bloom.
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Yes, Clint. I'll call him Ginger from now on, because I loathe "Red Thunder."
Why would it take him a week to report?
Are you talking about Clint or Todd?
If it's Todd then..
He is a lifetime 247 hitter. He is hitting 207 this year. How is that good??? He is NOT a good hitter. People fall for his power. That's it. He better not get a big contract from us next year. He should be 1 and done.
He is unlikely to get any new contract from NYY. If he does, it will be a one year deal at a very manageable number to play a platoon role. More likely that they don't sign him, IMO.
Come on Shock! We don't wear pinstripes on the road! lol
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You were referring to his first home game?
Come on Shock! We don't wear pinstripes on the road! lol
Haha, that's what clued me in that you meant first home game!
He is unlikely to get any new contract from NYY. If he does, it will be a one year deal at a very manageable number to play a platoon role. More likely that they don't sign him, IMO.
As much as I dislike him, I think there is a very good chance Todd Frazier resigns with the Yanks. He's a lifelong Yankee fan, is supposedly a great clubhouse guy and is at least a decent right handed bat that can play 3rd and 1st. And Holliday is likely gone so I can absolutely see Frazier filling that veteran role beyond this year.
Though at this point, they need a lefty bat significantly more than righty. How times have changed.
The thing that worries me is he'd best suited to a bench power bat / platoon-against-lefties guy. But he's exactly the type of guy that Girardi will get attached to and trot out there 8 games out of 10.
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Trying to sell myself on this!
Trying to sell myself on this!
Oh its real. Go check out his splits. He's been a better road hitter both seasons he's been on the White Sox and a better home hitter when he played in Cinci. It's not just this season.
2016, 2017(ChiSox)-much better road hitter
There's a uniform No. 77 hanging in Clint Frazier's locker. Guess David Robertson got his old No. 30 back. #Yankees
Yep, I agree - I'm guessing Headley 3B / Frazier 1B vs lefties, and Frazier / Cooper vs righties for the rest of this season.
My comment about moving Headley was off-season hypothetical about appetite to keep Frazier beyond this year.
That is a good summary. I'm fine with this trade for the reasons in there.
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Bryan HochVerified account @BryanHoch 8m8 minutes ago
There's a uniform No. 77 hanging in Clint Frazier's locker. Guess David Robertson got his old No. 30 back. #Yankees
Mantle: 7 & Maris: 9 - Frazier: 77 & Judge: 99? lol
Hicks-CF
Judge-RF
Sanchez-C
Holliday-DH
Castro-2B
Didi-SS
Frazier-1B
Headley-3B
Cooper and Choi will compete for playing time(I like Coopers swing!). Ellsbury as a 4th OF and Torreyes as a utility. That's a championship caliber lineup for sure.
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Bryan HochVerified account @BryanHoch 8m8 minutes ago
There's a uniform No. 77 hanging in Clint Frazier's locker. Guess David Robertson got his old No. 30 back. #Yankees
Mantle: 7 & Maris: 9 - Frazier: 77 & Judge: 99? lol
Gardner 11
Ellsbury 22,
Frazier 77,
Judge 99
lol.
Yep and it seems very plausible.
Even if he tears up the minors, Rutherford won't make it to the bigs for at least 2 years. By that time - in 2019, if Brett Gardner leaves as a free agent, our under contract OFs ahead of Rutherford would still be:
Judge
Hicks
Frazier
Fowler
Ellsbury
Florial
Keep in mind - Mateo may be converted to outfield.
By 2019, we'd also have had our chance at making another trade or courting free agents like Bryce Harper, Charlie Blackmon, Lonnie Chisenhall, or AJ Pollock, and the list goes on.
Oh by the way, since being called up to AAA earlier this year - Jake Cave is hitting .349 with 8 homers in 29 games, and Billy McKinney is hitting .352 with 4 homers in 14 games.
they can probably get a prospect as good as, if not better than Rutherford, no?
Yep and it seems very plausible.
I would bet that the Yanks are already in discussions on what they could get for Betances and instead of a high end prospect, they are probably thinking along the lines of starting pitcher....not only because that is a need, but because they already have more prospects than they can keep.
We are loaded with prospects and after this last draft, are also loaded with a ton of pitching prospects - some who will become MLB pitchers (Kap, Sheffield, Adams, Abreu, Acavedo, Tate, this year's 1st rounder Schmidt, etc). This trade yesterday indicates they are going for it now, not later. We already made the prospect haul last year. Now what is needed is a reliable SP to spell time until a couple of the youngsters are ready to prove themselves in the bigs.
Regardless, I think Betances is probably on shaky ground with the Yanks as his role just got reduced and he's been too erratic lately. There's also a little bit of bad blood between him and the front office after last year's arbitration battle in which Delin thought he should get "closer" money, but instead got paid like a setup guy that he is.
Also, if you have so little faith that Betances will get back on track, why on earth would another team want him as the centerpiece of a deal for a starter?
Also, if you have so little faith that Betances will get back on track, why on earth would another team want him as the centerpiece of a deal for a starter?
I am 100% against trading Betances, but the Yankees being a bit down on him has no bearing on what other teams may think. I'm sure the Yanks wouldn't be calling teams up saying "hey, we are fed up with Betances, how about you give us your ace for him"! There could certainly be a process in negotiations where they would at some point float his name out there, and see where it goes.
But again, trading Betances now after solidifying the pen wouldn't make any sense.
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Bryan HochVerified account @BryanHoch 8m8 minutes ago
There's a uniform No. 77 hanging in Clint Frazier's locker. Guess David Robertson got his old No. 30 back. #Yankees
Mantle: 7 & Maris: 9 - Frazier: 77 & Judge: 99? lol
When Frazier came up I was hoping that he would choose #77, so that he could complement #99 in the outfield. It's a lot sexier than #30.
Saw a comment somewhere (maybe even on this thread, but too lazy to backtrack to see where I read it) that Frazier said that his choice of #77 had nothing to do with Mantle...so one can assume that the number change to #77 is happening.
Also, if you have so little faith that Betances will get back on track, why on earth would another team want him as the centerpiece of a deal for a starter?
Your argument is simultaneously premised upon: (1) Todd Frazier sucking this season; and (2) Kahnle only being good this season. You see how that might be a tad inconsistent?
I understand your frustration and I completely agree. The Yankees have the deepest collection of OF prospects in baseball but just because you are dealing with a surplus doesn't mean the return should be lower. I know Rutherford is at least 2 years away but I am still very surprised that they traded him for this package. Now had he been the centerpiece for Gray and Alonso then that would have made more sense to me.
Todd Frazier wasn't particularly good last season, either, despite the 40 homers. Guy has had a sub-.310 OBP since 2014. His career OBP is .318.
2- Kahnle is definitely having a breakout year so while that may be frightening, he has slowly been on an upward trajectory last few years and is still young. In other words, it's not that crazy that a young guy just got better and is now finally putting it together. Having him cost controlled next few years is huge
3- Robertson is signed until next year and is having a pretty sensational season. WHIP below 1. 9+ K/9 innings and ERA below 2.50. This will help a lot.
4- By having a strong BP, Green or Warren could move to the rotation. Yankees would then kill multiple birds with one stone.
5- Really sucks losing Rutherford, but Yankees have multiple young OF ahead of him in the minors right now. Plus, if Rutherford can't play center, that limits his ability to impact the Yankees even more.
I get why people are concerned but a lot of overreaction.
I think they were 2 over on the 40.
And they are directly adding 3 guys to the 25, subtracting Clippard, Shreve, Choi. Was Ref currently on the 25 before this move?
Maybe I'm missing something. They DFAd Chou and Refsnyder and sent Shreveport down. That's 3 guys. They are adding the 3 from the trade. Where's the open spot?
You may be right. Forgot about the Clip joint
Thanks for sharing the info.
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Wonder if Chance Adams is getting the call...
Maybe I'm missing something. They DFAd Chou and Refsnyder and sent Shreveport down. That's 3 guys. They are adding the 3 from the trade. Where's the open spot?
Clipboard was included in the trade?
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100% positive but Jack Curry is reporting open spot on 25 and open spot on 40.
You may be right. Forgot about the Clip joint
Didn't see the new posts. <3
An article said that severe weather delayed flights