As we approach camp, just about everything Giants-related has been discussed to no end. Having said that, some Giants topics are discussed with far greater frequency than others. Obviously with the draft and Free Agency, personnel has been discussed a ton. I'll stay away from that topic here, even though it's perhaps the most important one in forming opinions about the current state of our team.
What I think hasn't been discussed as much as perhaps deserved is the coaching staff. In particular I'm interested in hearing more viewpoints about three coaching-related topics that (imo) have been "under-discussed".
First - Coach Sullivan, and his potential growth in his second year as NYG offensive coordinator. Many of us have been skeptical about his credentials and what he could do for our team. I've long wondered if his conservative approach is in part what helped this offense take a big step backwards last year. Will a second year working with Coach McAdoo's offense lead to his development into an aggressive coordinator who takes advantage of his many weapons? I'm worried that it won't. Recently he again emphasized that protecting the ball is job number one. While that may be true, it seems that if you have an offense with a potential to be more explosive than efficient you need to be constantly threatening other teams with those explosive weapons. Sully's track record seems to indicate that we will see a lot of running in obvious run downs & distance, with few shots taken downfield. This could be a problem, imo, as I think we are better suited to "pass to set up the run" than the alternative.
Second - Coach McAdoo's ownership of the play-calling. Last year Coach admitted to playing conservatively and relying on the defense as the team's strength. Will he insist on maintaining control again? If so, will we see our offense become conservative again, particularly if the defense plays well and has a lead?
Finally, Coach McAdoo's focus during training camp. I've forgotten how many times he said last year that they were focusing on fundamentals. I think that's smart, and the defense showed that good tackling skills can make a huge difference on third down in forcing punts. Having said that, this year I think the focus needs to be on execution. Last year's offensive woes point directly toward regular breakdowns in execution. How many drives were stalled because of missed assignments one way or the other? Even flaws in technique (like holding) often are the result of poor execution, where a player doesn't recognize his assignment and as a result loses leverage. This year, the offense needs to work like a machine. I'm pretty sure it won't take long before teams decide to limit our explosiveness and test our ability to execute consistently down the field. How many 10+ play drives can the Giants successfully execute this year?
Anyway - these topics are interesting to me and I really haven't heard much commentary on them from BBI. They tend to be dismissed fairly regularly. This is a dead time. Let's hear what you think.
To me, it's not as much that we played conservatively (we definitely did) but there wasnt a single moment in any game throughout the entire season where I felt the coach wasnt in total control of the team.
He executed late games almost flawlessly which was refreshing after TC had such a struggle in that area in 2015.
I wasnt totally sold on the idea of him getting the gig simply to keep Manning in his system but after watching him in control of the team for a year plus, he brings alot more to the table.
Then, in the next paragraph, you state how McAdoo calls the plays. I think you are confused with Sullivan's role.
I do share concerns about Sullivan and his "fit" with the WCO. He seems like a subdued guy and my guess is that Eli likes him and probably lobbied for him. I keep coming back to the fact that McAdoo did want to bring Joe Philbin here but he passed up the Giants for the Colts.
I think it has been more discussed on BBI but the CURRENT faith in Rosas is a bit remarkable. The can always add a kicker at any time, but they must really like what they see so far.
If you sling the ball around with that offensive line Eli will get slaughtered.
To me the WCO without protection is just playing in a box. If you release the ball quickly you might avoid more sacks but the downside is the defense can play you in a certain box knowing you cant throw long.
The entire Giants offense for three years has been ODB. Absent him, the Giants have the worst offense in the NFL over that span. But with the current O-line, which is bottom tier in the NFL you cant pass every single down.
You think Spags will get another job offer? I'm not so sure. He first has to string together a couple of more decent seasons in my book.
I loved Coughlin, but his theatrics in recent years coupled with some questionable clock management at times seemed unsettling and the team seemed to follow suit....
McAdoo seems unflappable, communicating with his staff and with Eli.......It seemed like the team modeled that on the field.
I know last year McAdoo had not relinquished play calling responsibilities. Has there been a decision regarding 2017??
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Who is next in line if Spags leaves? His name is starting to get thrown around as a possible HCing candidate again.
You think Spags will get another job offer? I'm not so sure. He first has to string together a couple of more decent seasons in my book.
It depends. I have read his name as a potential candidate. We know he wants another chance. I look around the league at some of the coaches getting hired and don't see how some of them are better than Spags. Obviously, teams have way more information than I do so that is purely an opinion by me. Also, in today's NFL there is so much emphasis on offense and there aren't that many quality DCs anymore. I remember seeing a stat that defensive HCs are having more success in the NFL than offensive HCs. So, that alone gives him a big advantage imo.
Whether he is or isn't a legit candidate this next offseason it is still worth discussing imo. Like I stated, there aren't many great DCs in today's NFL. Offense has taken over. So, who is out there or in house that would be worth discussing? I always loved Wade Phillips' defenses but he just went to LA so he is put of the equation.
thanks Eric.
If that's the case, that really answers question 1 in the OP. We know what we have in McAdoo. Sully's main job will be to get the players ready for McAdoo's plays/offense.
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Sully's track record seems to indicate that we will see a lot of running in obvious run downs & distance, with few shots taken downfield. This could be a problem, imo, as I think we are better suited to "pass to set up the run" than the alternative.
Then, in the next paragraph, you state how McAdoo calls the plays. I think you are confused with Sullivan's role.
I'm certain that Sully doesn't call the plays, but he does help with the game plan, and he consults with Eli on the sideline, so I feel he is influential in the actual plays that are run. With McAdoo calling the plays, and Sully whispering in Eli's ear on the sideline to play it safe, we end up with a non-aggressive offense.
I don't think Spags is going anywhere but it's a worthy concern if the Giants run out a great or championship caliber D this coming season. Spags may get one more shot at HC but he could bomb the interview or fail to garner any real interest. I'd say the odds are against it but there is a chance of it happening.
Last year regress was due to some keys:
Cruz shortfalls hurt.
Having no fullback, hurt.
OL hurt....
But the defensive dominance also dictated taking the air out of the tires of offense. The defense drove the bus.
I hope we go full throttle with the both the defense and offense. Take no prisoner.....can we actually win by several TDs..
I personally believe he was injured by Chris Baker but he played poorly last year and was part of the reason we basically packed it in offensively.
I thought he looked sharp in the Playoff game but am concerned about his overall body of work last year considering his age. If he can't throw better than he did last year we aren't going to realize our potential offensively.
A close 2nd concern? McAdoo. He's got potential as a Head Coach but his offensive scheme hasn't impressed me at all - way too basic.
Also MacAdoo will control the offense so not certain how Sullivan s conservative nature is a problem.
His opinion that you have to protect the ball first and foremost, is shared by most coaches in NFL, not sure why that comment would cause the OP any concern.
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Who is next in line if Spags leaves? His name is starting to get thrown around as a possible HCing candidate again.
You think Spags will get another job offer? I'm not so sure. He first has to string together a couple of more decent seasons in my book.
I heard that Spags left a very bad impression in St. Louis, for what it's worth. The league is small and people talk. So I agree he probably needs more than 1 more good season.
p.s.--In my mind the under-discussed topic is Rhett Ellison's calf injury. Does he pass his physical next week?
Eli was fine last year. He ducked and covered a lot and he threw some brutal picks at times, but no more than usual. He had one weapon worth anything and his 2nd guy was a rookie that was confined to the slot.
Eli/Beckham was the reason why the offense wasn't 1996 bad.
Eli didn't age overnight. He's the same QB he's always been. IF he struggles in 2017 then we can talk.
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In comment 13533180 robbieballs2003 said:
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Who is next in line if Spags leaves? His name is starting to get thrown around as a possible HCing candidate again.
You think Spags will get another job offer? I'm not so sure. He first has to string together a couple of more decent seasons in my book.
I heard that Spags left a very bad impression in St. Louis, for what it's worth. The league is small and people talk. So I agree he probably needs more than 1 more good season.
He was a couple steps up from dumpster fire in St Louis. I don't think he's getting any HC offers for a while, not matter how good our defense gets.
Sullivan does not appear to be a fit to my eyes, and we all know he comes with the conservative tag, just look at his time in TB which was widely criticized down there. I was not a fan of him becoming even OC here as philosophically, it doesn't seems that any system he's be a part of meshes with the WCO. To me, being on the same frequency is important, and Philbin would have been a better fit. But let's see the growth year 2. I'm sure if things don't pickup, McAdoo seems like the type to be willing to roll a head if need be.
Going into year 2 will be interesting.
I too think McAdoo exhibited complete control of the team, it was impressive.
As alluded to, losing the FB, first year OC that may or may not be a fit (or at least lacked experience), OL issues, and a strong defense led to things being run a little conservatively. But some of that conservatism led to actual late game wins, as opposed to previous years where things would tend to fall apart under Coughlin in the final minutes or with gambles that failed to pay off. It's a two-edged sword.
Mac has a great feel for the game. I'm hopeful that with the new TE/H-Back weapons, hopefully a middle of the line O-line, year two of Shepard, and Marshall's addition, we will see a much more diverse formation and play calling offense from coach McAdoo.
I am just dying for a season where the Giants find that killer instinct, and unleash Belichick-like aggression with the foot on throttle and throat all game long. I'd love to finally see some double digit wins.
I can throw the pill. You take away Odell..fine. Now I have Engram, Marshall and Sheppard. I am old and fat but if you give me that those weapons I could KILL you if you crowd the line. We play a rhythm, Quick release, WC offense, the answer is not a great OL, the answer is playmakers, Reese did the absolute correct thing off season.
If the weapons stay healthy this going to Eli's biggest year, bank on it. Crowd the line, I kill you on the outside with Marshall or Engram down the seam. Back off, I kill you with slants and screens to my playmakers and watch the YAC pile up. Combine that with a great D and we get to play with leads. This team has the potential to be DOMINANT.
I can throw the pill. You take away Odell..fine. Now I have Engram, Marshall and Sheppard. I am old and fat but if you give me that those weapons I could KILL you if you crowd the line. We play a rhythm, Quick release, WC offense, the answer is not a great OL, the answer is playmakers, Reese did the absolute correct thing off season.
If the weapons stay healthy this going to Eli's biggest year, bank on it. Crowd the line, I kill you on the outside with Marshall or Engram down the seam. Back off, I kill you with slants and screens to my playmakers and watch the YAC pile up. Combine that with a great D and we get to play with leads. This team has the potential to be DOMINANT.
If the O-line doesn't improve, the additions will do nothing.
I think the mandate was, from ownership, to not have another losing season....and Mac coached the games to win....if that meant limiting the offense to not make mistakes, and letting the defense carry this team, so be it....the problem with that philosophy is, when you get to the playoffs, there will be games where the defense is not as strong, and the offense has to step it up......and with this offense there wasn't even a switch to flip....they were what they were....a team that couldn't average 20 points per game in their last 5 regular season games...was it any surprise they couldn't score 20 in the GB playoff game?
There hasn't been much of an upgrade to the RB position, just adding an unproven 4th rounder.....
The OL is more or less the same....
But the addition of Marshall, and the potential of Engram, along with the return of Vereen, gives Eli the options he didn't have last season....the addition of Ellison, should help the running game, as well as the passing game....
As far as the offense goes, I would love to see them step it up, for once, in preseason games....this baloney that you don't want teams to see your plays before the season starts, is crap.....it's called execution.....and you don't create execution, by not running them in preseason....I foresee offensive setups, that will give Eli multiple options, based upon how the defense sets up....this is something he didn't have last season due to personnel.....let's do it in preseason, and when that opening game starts, we will be more than ready, offensively....
As for Spags, he is going nowhere......he has shown that, like most coaches, if you don't have the horses, you are not going to win the race.....now that is not a knock on him....there are coaches that have the horses and screw up....he is a good coach when he has them, and less than average when he doesn't....
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The offense is going to be A LOT better this year as long as our new additions stay healthy we are going to be dangerous. You say the OL is a weakness, OK. The defense plays up to take away the run and the short pass because we are predictable. They doubled and tripled Odell, Cruz had nothing because he lacked burst.
I can throw the pill. You take away Odell..fine. Now I have Engram, Marshall and Sheppard. I am old and fat but if you give me that those weapons I could KILL you if you crowd the line. We play a rhythm, Quick release, WC offense, the answer is not a great OL, the answer is playmakers, Reese did the absolute correct thing off season.
If the weapons stay healthy this going to Eli's biggest year, bank on it. Crowd the line, I kill you on the outside with Marshall or Engram down the seam. Back off, I kill you with slants and screens to my playmakers and watch the YAC pile up. Combine that with a great D and we get to play with leads. This team has the potential to be DOMINANT.
If the O-line doesn't improve, the additions will do nothing.
You're wrong, If we have someone big on the outside that you can throw it up to that can beat man to man or someone large and fast that can bust the seam you cannot get to the QB before he makes that throw. If you play off of the recievers and I have small quick guys, you cannot get to me before I throw the slant. OL does not matter.
No team does one thing without the other. I think Coughlin preferred vets because they generally have the fundamentals down, so your practice can focus on getting the reps you need to improve your execution.
McAdoo, on the other hand, made a decision to focus on fundamentals in camp. This year I hope he spends more time focusing on execution of plays.
More than anything else I want this team to be efficient with their drivers, not telling on the big play to score.
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The offense is going to be A LOT better this year as long as our new additions stay healthy we are going to be dangerous. You say the OL is a weakness, OK. The defense plays up to take away the run and the short pass because we are predictable. They doubled and tripled Odell, Cruz had nothing because he lacked burst.
I can throw the pill. You take away Odell..fine. Now I have Engram, Marshall and Sheppard. I am old and fat but if you give me that those weapons I could KILL you if you crowd the line. We play a rhythm, Quick release, WC offense, the answer is not a great OL, the answer is playmakers, Reese did the absolute correct thing off season.
If the weapons stay healthy this going to Eli's biggest year, bank on it. Crowd the line, I kill you on the outside with Marshall or Engram down the seam. Back off, I kill you with slants and screens to my playmakers and watch the YAC pile up. Combine that with a great D and we get to play with leads. This team has the potential to be DOMINANT.
If the O-line doesn't improve, the additions will do nothing.
Except that the additions were made (including the ones by subtraction) to, in part, make up for an O-Line that underperforms again.
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In comment 13533398 Thegratefulhead said:
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The offense is going to be A LOT better this year as long as our new additions stay healthy we are going to be dangerous. You say the OL is a weakness, OK. The defense plays up to take away the run and the short pass because we are predictable. They doubled and tripled Odell, Cruz had nothing because he lacked burst.
I can throw the pill. You take away Odell..fine. Now I have Engram, Marshall and Sheppard. I am old and fat but if you give me that those weapons I could KILL you if you crowd the line. We play a rhythm, Quick release, WC offense, the answer is not a great OL, the answer is playmakers, Reese did the absolute correct thing off season.
If the weapons stay healthy this going to Eli's biggest year, bank on it. Crowd the line, I kill you on the outside with Marshall or Engram down the seam. Back off, I kill you with slants and screens to my playmakers and watch the YAC pile up. Combine that with a great D and we get to play with leads. This team has the potential to be DOMINANT.
If the O-line doesn't improve, the additions will do nothing.
Except that the additions were made (including the ones by subtraction) to, in part, make up for an O-Line that underperforms again.
In football, I don't think its possible to cover up for a bad o-line. I grant you outside of ODB last year the Giants had a horrible group of skill players and horrible blocking tes.
But if the oline continues to suck blocking both the run and the pass, then the offense will have sever limitations and will continue to be one of the worst in the league. I dont think thats even debatable.
If the O-line doesn't improve, the additions will do nothing.
Except that the additions were made (including the ones by subtraction) to, in part, make up for an O-Line that underperforms again.
In football, I don't think its possible to cover up for a bad o-line. I grant you outside of ODB last year the Giants had a horrible group of skill players and horrible blocking tes.
But if the oline continues to suck blocking both the run and the pass, then the offense will have sever limitations and will continue to be one of the worst in the league. I dont think thats even debatable.
Flowers and Hart have reportedly been working very hard to improve their games, and Richburg, who suffered an injury to his snapping hand early on last year which really hurt his run-blocking, is now fully healed. But even if the O-Line doesn't improve all that much from last year, the blocking from the TE spot (and FB, too, I hope) should be much, much better, and Marshall's blocking on the outside is reminiscent of Plax's.
Rashad Jennings was horrible last year. Paul Perkins is a much better option to make something out of little or nothing if the O-Line falters again, and I believe that Wayne Gallman will prove his worth in that department sooner rather than later. Also, a healthy Shane Vereen gives Eli a weapon that was sorely missed last year.
Brandon Marshall doesn't have to be the burner that OBJ is (or Evan Engram is, for that matter), but he's a huge target who will earn his money on 3rd down and in the red zone. He gives the Giants everything that Victor Cruz didn't last year, and will be a much better complement to OBJ and Stirling Shepard. The aforementioned Engram is a dynamic, versatile weapon, the likes of which the Giants haven't had since...ever. Like OBJ, he's a big play waiting to happen.
There wasn't that much the Giants could do to upgrade their O-Line this year, so besides depending on some of their players to show some improvement, they did what they could to make upgrades along the periphery. Every little bit helps.
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If the O-line doesn't improve, the additions will do nothing.
Except that the additions were made (including the ones by subtraction) to, in part, make up for an O-Line that underperforms again.
In football, I don't think its possible to cover up for a bad o-line. I grant you outside of ODB last year the Giants had a horrible group of skill players and horrible blocking tes.
But if the oline continues to suck blocking both the run and the pass, then the offense will have sever limitations and will continue to be one of the worst in the league. I dont think thats even debatable.
Flowers and Hart have reportedly been working very hard to improve their games, and Richburg, who suffered an injury to his snapping hand early on last year which really hurt his run-blocking, is now fully healed. But even if the O-Line doesn't improve all that much from last year, the blocking from the TE spot (and FB, too, I hope) should be much, much better, and Marshall's blocking on the outside is reminiscent of Plax's.
Rashad Jennings was horrible last year. Paul Perkins is a much better option to make something out of little or nothing if the O-Line falters again, and I believe that Wayne Gallman will prove his worth in that department sooner rather than later. Also, a healthy Shane Vereen gives Eli a weapon that was sorely missed last year.
Brandon Marshall doesn't have to be the burner that OBJ is (or Evan Engram is, for that matter), but he's a huge target who will earn his money on 3rd down and in the red zone. He gives the Giants everything that Victor Cruz didn't last year, and will be a much better complement to OBJ and Stirling Shepard. The aforementioned Engram is a dynamic, versatile weapon, the likes of which the Giants haven't had since...ever. Like OBJ, he's a big play waiting to happen.
There wasn't that much the Giants could do to upgrade their O-Line this year, so besides depending on some of their players to show some improvement, they did what they could to make upgrades along the periphery. Every little bit helps.
But I take your point. They very well may improve and there was no option this offseason. I expect improvement. If they do your points about the talent upgrades are dead on correct.
If its the same o line performance as last year the Giants might make the playoffs but cant go the distance. Likely theyd regress cause of schedule.
It's not about impressing anyone. It's about working on your craft to improve your performance, which is a good thing, regardless of your job or your financial situation.
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I dont get impressed when millionaires work hard.
It's not about impressing anyone. It's about working on your craft to improve your performance, which is a good thing, regardless of your job or your financial situation.
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I dont get impressed when millionaires work hard.
It's not about impressing anyone. It's about working on your craft to improve your performance, which is a good thing, regardless of your job or your financial situation.
So the fact we didnt hear these stories last yeae about the hard work? Implies they were lazy?
Actually, we did hear similar stories about Hart working out, Jerry training at Bentley's camp, Pugh doing some MMA work. I don't recall hearing anything about Flowers last year, good or bad, but this year he made it a point to stay up here and work on his conditioning. Since he's still our starting LT, good for him. Maybe he needed a year of futility to have the light come on for him.
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In comment 13533997 Klaatu said:
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I dont get impressed when millionaires work hard.
It's not about impressing anyone. It's about working on your craft to improve your performance, which is a good thing, regardless of your job or your financial situation.
So the fact we didnt hear these stories last yeae about the hard work? Implies they were lazy?
Actually, we did hear similar stories about Hart working out, Jerry training at Bentley's camp, Pugh doing some MMA work. I don't recall hearing anything about Flowers last year, good or bad, but this year he made it a point to stay up here and work on his conditioning. Since he's still our starting LT, good for him. Maybe he needed a year of futility to have the light come on for him.
The Kicking game. As much flak as our Special Team Coordinator gets for the lack of a great return game, he doesn't receive a lot of credit for how well the kickers and punters on this team perform. Over the years there have been several relatively unknown punters and kickers who came through for the Giants.
Shane Vereen return to the offense. I am a strong believer in side effects for lack of a better word. Case in point, the side effect of having an all-pro tackle means less chipping by the backs and tight ends which makes them more productive. In this case, Shane Vereen skill set as a third down option created space for the tight ends to be more effective as the opposing linebackers had to divert some of their attention to Shane.
The addition of a year's experience to Eli Apple
I'd love to see some film gurus breakdown the Giants line under Solari and point out where guys are getting physically beat and where guys are getting beat as a result of poor technique and missed plays.
Which is clearly why we upgraded our skill positions...so we could be more efficient (and at times more explosive) on offense, and not have to rely on the defense so much to win games.