I lived in NYC for years.....and those lines never were an issue. Can't speak for NJ but in NY, they are usually 20 ft high....and not even notifiable.
Most people do not even know they are there.
I am not Jewish but I understand without those lines, they become basically homebound on their Sabbath.
You're trying to keep them from becoming part of the town where they then push out local businesses and family store owners, divert money from public schools for their yeshivas,claim their homes as synagogues and refuse to pay property taxes and bring down (generally speaking) surrounding property values with unkept multi family dwellings.
I live on the border of NY and NJ. This is a big problem and their are several case studies that suggest ERuv wires are the first step. You've also heard a lot about this because the Hasidic community has supposedly greased loca utilities in order to out them up without town zoning approval. My town, just this week, filed a claim against the local utility and forced them to be removed.
And before someone tells me I am being anti-semetic I am myself Jewish and have lived in towns near and amongst Hasidim for nearly 40 years.
You're trying to keep them from becoming part of the town where they then push out local businesses and family store owners, divert money from public schools for their yeshivas,claim their homes as synagogues and refuse to pay property taxes and bring down (generally speaking) surrounding property values with unkept multi family dwellings.
I live on the border of NY and NJ. This is a big problem and their are several case studies that suggest ERuv wires are the first step. You've also heard a lot about this because the Hasidic community has supposedly greased loca utilities in order to out them up without town zoning approval. My town, just this week, filed a claim against the local utility and forced them to be removed.
And before someone tells me I am being anti-semetic I am myself Jewish and have lived in towns near and amongst Hasidim for nearly 40 years.
Dang, sorry for all the typos.
RE: RE: I don't understand people who are against them
I'm always open to being enlightened but they're usually as thick as a fishing line and, as mentioned, high above the ground.
Most people will never even notice it's there
Jay, it's not the lines themselves. Those are barely noticeable.
I hear where you're coming from and it's an interesting point of view but there are other sects that use the eruv. The town I grew up in in queens has only seen property value grow over the last 20 years. There are also towns all over Bergen county as well as Long Islans (keeping this NY/NJ centric) that use them that have been experiencing the same thing.
RE: RE: RE: I don't understand people who are against them
I'm always open to being enlightened but they're usually as thick as a fishing line and, as mentioned, high above the ground.
Most people will never even notice it's there
Jay, it's not the lines themselves. Those are barely noticeable.
I hear where you're coming from and it's an interesting point of view but there are other sects that use the eruv. The town I grew up in in queens has only seen property value grow over the last 20 years. There are also towns all over Bergen county as well as Long Islans (keeping this NY/NJ centric) that use them that have been experiencing the same thing.
Very possible though the question was specific in mentioning northern NJ. I'd also guess that increases in property value are more coincidental than they are the result of changing demographics. Queens being part of NYC and LI property values tend to hold better than their suburbs to the north, absent Westchester.
With respect to other towns in Bergen County, there are interesting case studies in towns like Tenafky and Teaneck who both tried to prevent eruv from going up. One successful and one not.
Just to add to my earlier post, in Rockland County NY there are also several towns that have turned over and experienced an overall decline in schooling and property value (stripped of the inflation in overall real estate) such as Monsey, Wesley Hills, Pomona and Chestnut Ridge.
Either way, respect your opinion. I'm not at all familiar with queens and LI in comparison to the Rockland/Bergen area.
so its a technical boundary that allows those that practice Judaism to not be bound to the usual carrying laws on the Sabbath? If that isn't right feel free to correct.
What's the theory behind it being bad for a community (serious question, i'm genuinely curious)?
Within which someone observing Shabbat can freely travel as it's within proximity to their synagogue. By expanding that area and putting up eruv it allows ultra orthodox to move into areas where they may currently not reside because it was previously deemed to be outside of the eruv or too far from synagogue (thus they can't walk to and from on Shabbat).
Without the ability to walk to and from synagogue on Shabbat the Hasidim would not consider it suitable place to live.
so its a technical boundary that allows those that practice Judaism to not be bound to the usual carrying laws on the Sabbath? If that isn't right feel free to correct.
What's the theory behind it being bad for a community (serious question, i'm genuinely curious)?
It's not the wires themselves, but what happens to areas under Hasidic control (at least in my experience). It's an issue of the wires being a precursor to eventual migration.
Town council turned down an initial request for an eruv, the orthodox community got permission from Verizon to use their poles and ignored the town council and the matter got litigated right up to the Supreme Court, which refused to hear the case. The orthodox community won.
I think the fear is that a town will turn into another Lakewood if an eruv is allowed. That's overblown in my opinion. The affluent towns in Bergen County are magnets because of their top notch school systems and they have the property taxes to prove it. That's a turn-off for the orthodox who don't send their children to public schools.
Town council turned down an initial request for an eruv, the orthodox community got permission from Verizon to use their poles and ignored the town council and the matter got litigated right up to the Supreme Court, which refused to hear the case. The orthodox community won.
I think the fear is that a town will turn into another Lakewood if an eruv is allowed. That's overblown in my opinion. The affluent towns in Bergen County are magnets because of their top notch school systems and they have the property taxes to prove it. That's a turn-off for the orthodox who don't send their children to public schools.
The fear is overblown until it happens in your school district. Public funds are diverted from public schooling to Yeshivas. There have been a few articles written in the NY Times and NY Magazine if I recall. I also grew up in a school district where this happened after I had recently graduated, so I've seen it happen first hand.
That said, it tends to happen in more low income areas not because of taxes, but because people in those areas are less likely to come out and vote in school elections, while the Hasidim bus people into vote. The fact that Bergen County has high taxes isnt in itself a deterrent, but rather parents are very involved in the school system and local politics.
Religion is just so ridiculously irrational. "It says here in this really old book that God doesn't want you to go from one building to another on a particular day unless we have this wire around the neighborhood which makes it all fine". 'Mkay.
Me? I like my wires to do tangible things in the material world, like, you know, carrying television and data communications signals and electricity. May God bless the scientific method! And may God forgive me. And may God bless any I've offended.
Religion is just so ridiculously irrational. "It says here in this really old book that God doesn't want you to go from one building to another on a particular day unless we have this wire around the neighborhood which makes it all fine". 'Mkay.
Me? I like my wires to do tangible things in the material world, like, you know, carrying television and data communications signals and electricity. May God bless the scientific method! And may God forgive me. And may God bless any I've offended.
I get what you're saying, and you certainly did not offend me, but I think the original question at hand was regarding why the wires are deemed controversial and not what logical purpose they serve.
It's a tiny string hung around the community on telephone poles or street lamps. Almost invisible next to the other wires and cables.
If you have an Orthodox synagogue in your town, you probably have an Eruv.
If you live in a town and get along with your Orthodox Jewish neighbors, then you know that you don't have an issue with it. To the contrary, it might drive up the selling price of your home, for the same reason that people write "close to houses of worship," when they list their house on the market.
By extension, suppressing an Eruv is an effective method of discouraging Orthodox Jews of moving to your neighborhood.
Most people do not even know they are there.
I am not Jewish but I understand without those lines, they become basically homebound on their Sabbath.
I live on the border of NY and NJ. This is a big problem and their are several case studies that suggest ERuv wires are the first step. You've also heard a lot about this because the Hasidic community has supposedly greased loca utilities in order to out them up without town zoning approval. My town, just this week, filed a claim against the local utility and forced them to be removed.
And before someone tells me I am being anti-semetic I am myself Jewish and have lived in towns near and amongst Hasidim for nearly 40 years.
Most people will never even notice it's there
Most people will never even notice it's there
Jay, it's not the lines themselves. Those are barely noticeable.
I live on the border of NY and NJ. This is a big problem and their are several case studies that suggest ERuv wires are the first step. You've also heard a lot about this because the Hasidic community has supposedly greased loca utilities in order to out them up without town zoning approval. My town, just this week, filed a claim against the local utility and forced them to be removed.
And before someone tells me I am being anti-semetic I am myself Jewish and have lived in towns near and amongst Hasidim for nearly 40 years.
Dang, sorry for all the typos.
Quote:
I'm always open to being enlightened but they're usually as thick as a fishing line and, as mentioned, high above the ground.
Most people will never even notice it's there
Jay, it's not the lines themselves. Those are barely noticeable.
I hear where you're coming from and it's an interesting point of view but there are other sects that use the eruv. The town I grew up in in queens has only seen property value grow over the last 20 years. There are also towns all over Bergen county as well as Long Islans (keeping this NY/NJ centric) that use them that have been experiencing the same thing.
Quote:
In comment 13534328 JayBinQueens said:
Quote:
I'm always open to being enlightened but they're usually as thick as a fishing line and, as mentioned, high above the ground.
Most people will never even notice it's there
Jay, it's not the lines themselves. Those are barely noticeable.
I hear where you're coming from and it's an interesting point of view but there are other sects that use the eruv. The town I grew up in in queens has only seen property value grow over the last 20 years. There are also towns all over Bergen county as well as Long Islans (keeping this NY/NJ centric) that use them that have been experiencing the same thing.
Very possible though the question was specific in mentioning northern NJ. I'd also guess that increases in property value are more coincidental than they are the result of changing demographics. Queens being part of NYC and LI property values tend to hold better than their suburbs to the north, absent Westchester.
With respect to other towns in Bergen County, there are interesting case studies in towns like Tenafky and Teaneck who both tried to prevent eruv from going up. One successful and one not.
Either way, respect your opinion. I'm not at all familiar with queens and LI in comparison to the Rockland/Bergen area.
Freedom of religion, yes , but in the privacy of your own home.
What's the theory behind it being bad for a community (serious question, i'm genuinely curious)?
Without the ability to walk to and from synagogue on Shabbat the Hasidim would not consider it suitable place to live.
What's the theory behind it being bad for a community (serious question, i'm genuinely curious)?
It's not the wires themselves, but what happens to areas under Hasidic control (at least in my experience). It's an issue of the wires being a precursor to eventual migration.
I'm guessing that the fact that **electricity** is creating the boundary would not make it Sabbath-compliant, which is the primary goal.
I think the fear is that a town will turn into another Lakewood if an eruv is allowed. That's overblown in my opinion. The affluent towns in Bergen County are magnets because of their top notch school systems and they have the property taxes to prove it. That's a turn-off for the orthodox who don't send their children to public schools.
I think the fear is that a town will turn into another Lakewood if an eruv is allowed. That's overblown in my opinion. The affluent towns in Bergen County are magnets because of their top notch school systems and they have the property taxes to prove it. That's a turn-off for the orthodox who don't send their children to public schools.
The fear is overblown until it happens in your school district. Public funds are diverted from public schooling to Yeshivas. There have been a few articles written in the NY Times and NY Magazine if I recall. I also grew up in a school district where this happened after I had recently graduated, so I've seen it happen first hand.
That said, it tends to happen in more low income areas not because of taxes, but because people in those areas are less likely to come out and vote in school elections, while the Hasidim bus people into vote. The fact that Bergen County has high taxes isnt in itself a deterrent, but rather parents are very involved in the school system and local politics.
Yeah, but we'll let them open delis and bagel shops in the good parts of town.
Quote:
we set aside for them, segregated from the gentiles. I just wish there was a term for that.
Yeah, but we'll let them open delis and bagel shops in the good parts of town.
Right by the Chinese take-out places and black owned fried chicken joints.
Me? I like my wires to do tangible things in the material world, like, you know, carrying television and data communications signals and electricity. May God bless the scientific method! And may God forgive me. And may God bless any I've offended.
Me? I like my wires to do tangible things in the material world, like, you know, carrying television and data communications signals and electricity. May God bless the scientific method! And may God forgive me. And may God bless any I've offended.
I get what you're saying, and you certainly did not offend me, but I think the original question at hand was regarding why the wires are deemed controversial and not what logical purpose they serve.
Who knew Borough Park was full of Jews! (kidding...)
If you have an Orthodox synagogue in your town, you probably have an Eruv.
If you live in a town and get along with your Orthodox Jewish neighbors, then you know that you don't have an issue with it. To the contrary, it might drive up the selling price of your home, for the same reason that people write "close to houses of worship," when they list their house on the market.
By extension, suppressing an Eruv is an effective method of discouraging Orthodox Jews of moving to your neighborhood.