I was under the impression that we shouldn't expect too much production from Tomlinson before I looked at several different aspects that may play a role here. And, I've seen a lot of people saying seemingly contradictory statements about DT's rookie expectations. On the one hand, there seem to be a few people saying we can expect Hankins-like production from him (presumably as well as Hankins produced as a rookie) and yet also that we can expect him to become the starter as the season goes on.
First things first, Hankins didn't produce as a rookie. He didn't play many snaps and never even started a game. That was part of why I thought Tomlinson might not be an initial contributor. But several factors show that maybe more was at work there.
Looking at that 2013 team, you could see why Hankins may have been limited simply by a more loaded roster. Cullen Jenkins was our 3 tech. Linval Joseph was the 1 tech. Mike Patterson and Shaun Rogers - guys who had started every game for teams in the past - were also ahead of Hankins on the depth chart and saw significantly more snaps at DT. Hankins ended up with 9 solo tackles and 7 assists seeing 16.9% of the snaps. It wasn't until year 2 that he started (all 16 games), produced (7 sacks to go with 51 total tackles), and saw the second most defensive snaps (64.6%) of all defensive linemen, not in small part due to the loss of some of those guys who were around his rookie year.
Looking at our 2017 roster, there's no one near as accomplished as Jenkins (or even Patterson or Rogers) to prove too entrenched for Tomlinson to dethrone as the #2 DT. Robert Thomas seems to be the de facto starter. Thomas saw action in 8 games last year, never started, ended the season with a sack but only 5 total tackles and played only 6.1% (68) of defensive snaps.
Jay Bromley alternatively might be considered the de facto starter. (He seems more suited for passing downs and occasionally spelling the 3 tech, imo.) He ended up with 1 sack and 14 total tackles, playing significantly more (248 snaps, good for 22.3% of defensive snaps) than Thomas.
And Corbin Bryant was an interesting signing in terms of bringing in vet DT experience to lead the way for Dalvin. But, he's listed at 6'4'' 300, and seems more likely considered competition for Bromley (3 tech and passing down DT) rather than competition or a vet alternative to Tomlinson.
Hankins came up with four guys who were or had previously been 16 game starters and vets. Tomlinson doesn't have that in front of him. And the last point I'll make that may indicate where our expectations should be for his involvement and production, I looked at the Hankins' draft and Tomlinson's draft. Hankins came in a loaded class where he was the sixth DT taken. Tomlinson arguably was the second DT taken, and maybe even the first DT taken if you're talking about guys who can play both the 1 tech and 3 tech. So, it's not without precedent that DTs come in hot out of the gate:
Players Taken Before Starts/Games Played
Sheldon Richardson 15/16
Star Lotulelei 16/16
Sharrif Floyd 1/16
Sylvester Williams 4/13
Kawann Short 0/16
Johnathan Hankins 0/11
Players Taken Before
Jonathan Allen (more of a DE or 3 tech than true DT)
Malik McDowell (more of a 3 tech than a 1 tech)
Dalvin Tomlinson
So, despite Hankins coming into a scenario where he would have to show tremendously in order to command a ton of playing time, Tomlinson doesn't necessarily have to. And given the immediate success we have seen from DTs even within Hankins own class, we shouldn't rule out Tomlinson from showing up big time even as a rookie DT.
He comes from a big program and we do not have a lot of depth in front of him so anything is possible.
If he comes in physically ready to handle 16+ games?
If he can get the play book down to start?
Does he have the skills necessary to start at DT?
no one is able to answer any of these questions yet.
I hope it is yes to all the above and he is ROY but more likely he is part of a rotation at DT.
Did you read my post? Saying he can be as productive as Hankins as a rookie is literally saying he won't do much.
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I think DT can be just as productive as Big Hank was in year 1. Maybe more because playing next to Snacks with JPP and Vernon on the ends is about as good a situation as a rookie DT is ever going to fall into.
Did you read my post? Saying he can be as productive as Hankins as a rookie is literally saying he won't do much.
Yes, I read your post and shared what I am expecting.
Hankins was solid but unspectacular in year 1 - because of how favorable Tomlinson's situation will be, I think he's a safe bet to at least be that but I wouldn't expect a whole lot more.
The other starting spot is Tomlinson's to lose.
I do, however, think that Tomlinson may surprise a lot of people this year. I think he is more NFL ready than many DTs coming out of college. I think his strength, hand placement and leverage, while needing development for the NFL, will put him in good stead. Having Damon Harrison as a mentor will also be valuable.
The key will be how we replace Johnathan Hankins' 816 snaps (from PFF). I can't see us increasing Harrison's 720 snaps. I expect NYG will be split Hankins' snaps between Tomlinson and Bromley with Robert Thomas or Corbin Bryant picking up the that Bromley (264) and Thomas (76) had last year.
The players you hear about at this point are the ones that are impressive movers so the fact that there isn't much hype surrounding him isn't strange.
Giants seemed to pick him for strength / intelligence and there is no way to really asses that at this point.
I expect him to be the DT2 behind Harrison, i dont expect much more than to clog up the line and eat blockers. he should be protected by the talent around him. Hankins is a good player but thats as far as I'll go. I think Tomlinson can step in and play well.
i dont expect a pro bowl plaer just yet.
We may see Bromley get more snaps than we are used to early on while tomlinson gets his legs under him. i wouldnt expect that to last if it were the case and honestly idk if bromley even makes the roster.
I think we'll find out starting August 1st - the expected 1st practice in full pads. I'll be there. Looking forward to seeing if Flowers, Fluker, Hart or Tomlinson look like good football players.
As for history, Cofield started.
Linval had Canty, Cofield and Rocky Bernard in front of him.
Hankins had LinJo and Cullen Jenkins.
Although I like Robert Thomas and think he can do a good job as a base starter, Tomlinson has a clearer path.
Fred Colfield (as Blue Whale noted) Kevin Boss and Aaron Ross played every snap as a rook in a year that we won the superbowl.
Then in 2011 TC started two lowly regarded rooks on another superbowl team..but the myth continues (TC wouldn't start rookies).
Point is: The past isn't really relative or predictive. My gut tells me Tomlinson will start. Seems he has the ideal skill set, intelligence, work ethic and incredible strength that made him one of the great college wrestlers of all time.
Everyone is down on Bromley, I wonder, now his third year and it's not impossible he'll put it together. This is a man who has overcome alot through hard work and I'm not ready to count him out.
In one sense, I think Hankins was underrated and might be missed. He was not a 3 and that might have hurt against the standard NFL passing game. But it was a nice match up to go up against the poower of the Dallas line with two 1 technique tackles. Styles makes fights.
Commas, and ellipses...
And that's about it.
Fred Colfield (as Blue Whale noted) Kevin Boss and Aaron Ross played every snap as a rook in a year that we won the superbowl.
Then in 2011 TC started two lowly regarded rooks on another superbowl team..but the myth continues (TC wouldn't start rookies).
Point is: The past isn't really relative or predictive. My gut tells me Tomlinson will start. Seems he has the ideal skill set, intelligence, work ethic and incredible strength that made him one of the great college wrestlers of all time.
Everyone is down on Bromley, I wonder, now his third year and it's not impossible he'll put it together. This is a man who has overcome alot through hard work and I'm not ready to count him out.
In one sense, I think Hankins was underrated and might be missed. He was not a 3 and that might have hurt against the standard NFL passing game. But it was a nice match up to go up against the poower of the Dallas line with two 1 technique tackles. Styles makes fights.
Ah, Fred Colfield.
At this point it's pretty obvious that you're just trolling - no one can consistently get every player's name wrong the way you do.
Everyone forgets Coughlin was The HC. Fewell was The DC.
Last season we started Shep on offense. Apple,Thompson,Adams and Orkwa later on when JPP went down.
This is a coaching staff that I s not afraid to play a rookie if they earn the time.
This is a wait and see game.
Tomlinson's college tape is much better than Hankins was, first off. I believe he is much more NFL-ready than Hankins was, and I believe he'll be pretty good right out the gate and contribute early. But, it's all talk until the games start and he has to prove it. I think we are going to be happy Giants' fans.
But, anything can happen and let's just see what kind of roster we have going into week 1 of the season. I always just hold my breath until that week 1 game because injuries happen and hopefully that preseason will go smoothly on the health front.
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in his rookie year.?
Fred Colfield (as Blue Whale noted) Kevin Boss and Aaron Ross played every snap as a rook in a year that we won the superbowl.
Then in 2011 TC started two lowly regarded rooks on another superbowl team..but the myth continues (TC wouldn't start rookies).
Point is: The past isn't really relative or predictive. My gut tells me Tomlinson will start. Seems he has the ideal skill set, intelligence, work ethic and incredible strength that made him one of the great college wrestlers of all time.
Everyone is down on Bromley, I wonder, now his third year and it's not impossible he'll put it together. This is a man who has overcome alot through hard work and I'm not ready to count him out.
In one sense, I think Hankins was underrated and might be missed. He was not a 3 and that might have hurt against the standard NFL passing game. But it was a nice match up to go up against the poower of the Dallas line with two 1 technique tackles. Styles makes fights.
Ah, Fred Colfield.
At this point it's pretty obvious that you're just trolling - no one can consistently get every player's name wrong the way you do.
His posts are usually auto-skips for me anyway - I can't be bothered to wade through the disastrously unformatted walls of text that read like a rambling drunk.
2. He doesn't have overwhelming size or speed, he wins with technique and effort player.
For those reasons I expect him to be more ready to contribute right away than you're average rookie who has to learn "the right way" to do things. What's less clear is how high his upside is given that he doesn't have elite size or athleticism. From the moment he was drafted different things I've heard about him reminded me of Barry Cofield - who was a good player that started a lot of games in the NFL, including all 16 games his rookie year, even though he was never a dominant player or as talented as Hankins/Joseph. Just a tough, versatile, productive over-achiever.
Fred Colfield (as Blue Whale noted) Kevin Boss and Aaron Ross played every snap as a rook in a year that we won the superbowl.
Then in 2011 TC started two lowly regarded rooks on another superbowl team..but the myth continues (TC wouldn't start rookies).
Point is: The past isn't really relative or predictive. My gut tells me Tomlinson will start. Seems he has the ideal skill set, intelligence, work ethic and incredible strength that made him one of the great college wrestlers of all time.
Everyone is down on Bromley, I wonder, now his third year and it's not impossible he'll put it together. This is a man who has overcome alot through hard work and I'm not ready to count him out.
In one sense, I think Hankins was underrated and might be missed. He was not a 3 and that might have hurt against the standard NFL passing game. But it was a nice match up to go up against the poower of the Dallas line with two 1 technique tackles. Styles makes fights.
Fred Colfield aside, Barry Colfield was a second year player in 2007, Boss was not the starter at TE for most of the season (Shockey started 14 games), and Ross only started 9 games as a rookie.
The actual information is right at your fingertips; why do you continue to make stuff up and/or trust your own memory?
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in his rookie year.?
Fred Colfield (as Blue Whale noted) Kevin Boss and Aaron Ross played every snap as a rook in a year that we won the superbowl.
Then in 2011 TC started two lowly regarded rooks on another superbowl team..but the myth continues (TC wouldn't start rookies).
Point is: The past isn't really relative or predictive. My gut tells me Tomlinson will start. Seems he has the ideal skill set, intelligence, work ethic and incredible strength that made him one of the great college wrestlers of all time.
Everyone is down on Bromley, I wonder, now his third year and it's not impossible he'll put it together. This is a man who has overcome alot through hard work and I'm not ready to count him out.
In one sense, I think Hankins was underrated and might be missed. He was not a 3 and that might have hurt against the standard NFL passing game. But it was a nice match up to go up against the poower of the Dallas line with two 1 technique tackles. Styles makes fights.
Fred Colfield aside, Barry Colfield was a second year player in 2007, Boss was not the starter at TE for most of the season (Shockey started 14 games), and Ross only started 9 games as a rookie.
The actual information is right at your fingertips; why do you continue to make stuff up and/or trust your own memory?
*Cofield (my own autocorrect is learning your misspellings)
Meanwhile, I expect Tomlinson to be a plus player right out of the gate (or at worst, a non-liability).
He is his own entity....and anyone speculating about his play is, well, speculating.....
The Giants are offering him a chance at a brass ring, which is a chance to be a starter on a team with aspirations towards a SB.....anything can happen.....
But let's see him perform on the field first....
And Milt....what are you doing up this early?
And by the way Adam...Bromley and de facto starter should never go together in a sentence ever again.
Again, I think Tomolinson plays more than Hank did as a rookie, but that's not because Hank didn't have the experience, because Hank had more experience coming into the NFL
As I've said repeatedly, the battle for DT is the one I'm most looking forward to watching this summer, and not just to see who starts next to Harrison. Snacks played 61% of the defensive snaps last year (10% on STs). Hankins was in on 69% of the defensive snaps (19% on STs), so obviously who starts is the big question, but who comes in as the 3rd DT looks to be pretty important as well, even with the assumption that interior pass-rushing will be a DE's job, too.
That could change if he proves he can push the pocket/generate a pass rush but I wouldn't hold my breath on that in his first year, or at least first half of the year.
Plus, Spags likes to kick inside his longer DE's in on 3rd down, ala JPP.
low sack totals but he was disruptive as a pass rusher. Could be quite the force on 3rd downs - especially well rested
here's a short n sweet video of how disruptive he can be ... has me thinking Cornelius Griffin 2.0
DT DT - ( New Window )
Further many wrestling techniques are useful on a football field especially at DT. You can see on his college tape, he stacks almost like underhooks and is able to control offensive linemen.
On a tantalizing day before camp, here's a great Sports Illustrated article on DT before the draft:
Given a list of recent Alabama players, the 6' 4", 320-pound Robinson—who currently plays for the Lions—is the guy most outsiders would select as the person with whom one should absolutely not trifle. But inside the Alabama program, the players knew the correct answer was the guy Robinson challenged in that hotel room.
“Nah,” Tomlinson said at first. “I’m good.”
But this was the match the other Crimson Tide players had waited for. Robinson might finally be the guy who had the strength and quickness to subdue Tomlinson, who won three Georgia heavyweight state titles for Henry County High. (He probably would have won four, but his coach chose to let a senior wrestle in the heavyweight class when Tomlinson was a freshman.) It didn’t take long for the others to goad the 6' 3", 310-pound Tomlinson into facing off with Robinson.
It didn’t take much longer for Robinson to tap out.
Alabama's Least Hyped Prospect is Also its Biggest Badass - ( New Window )
I suspect that it will take a year before DTs talent overcomes all before it.
sounds good to me
Obviously Tomlinson will need to develop and earn his spot.
It is interesting that we didn't go for a specialist 3 tech DT in favour of drafting Tomlinson who probably has a closer skill set to Hankins.
Obviously Tomlinson will need to develop and earn his spot.
It is interesting that we didn't go for a specialist 3 tech DT in favour of drafting Tomlinson who probably has a closer skill set to Hankins.
The desire for a 3T is entirely from fans/media - nothing that the team has done suggests that they feel they need a typical 3T. It's become pretty clear that they believe in stopping the run game to win the down and distance, and then cycle in pure pass rushers on 3rd and long.
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In an ideal world, I think the general plan is to pair Tomlinson and Harrison inside on early downs to shut down the run and force the 3rd down situations where we can add the extra DE/s as inside pass rushers along with nickel and dime packages with our stacked secondary.
Obviously Tomlinson will need to develop and earn his spot.
It is interesting that we didn't go for a specialist 3 tech DT in favour of drafting Tomlinson who probably has a closer skill set to Hankins.
The desire for a 3T is entirely from fans/media - nothing that the team has done suggests that they feel they need a typical 3T. It's become pretty clear that they believe in stopping the run game to win the down and distance, and then cycle in pure pass rushers on 3rd and long.
I disagree with that, GD. The Giants drafted Jay Alford, Marvin Austin, and Jay Bromley, who were all primarily 3-Techs, with the idea that they could provide an interior pass-rush. They signed free agent Rocky Bernard for the same reason. Even Johnathan Hankins, for all that he's a "bigger-bodied" DT, was expected to fill the same role, and my guess is that the Giants are hoping to get that push up the gut from Tomlinson as well.
I liked the Tomlinson pick (hell, I had the Giants drafting him in the 2nd round in one of my mocks). I do agree that the Giants were looking for a "run bully" (as Lance Zierlein described him) first and foremost, but I think what made him more attractive to the Giants was his versatility, as opposed to some other DTs they could have drafted who were more the pure-3-Tech type such as Larry Ogunobi or Jaleel Johnson.
I almost wish McAdoo/Spags don't even play JPP, Vernon and Snacks this preseason...at all