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Three questions that will be answered by the end of the week

Milton : 7/24/2017 6:41 am
1. Does Rhett Ellison pass his physical? The Giants are no strangers to calf injuries which seemed innocent enough when first reported, but ultimately cost the player the season (Berhe and Cruz to name two).

2. Does J.T. Thomas pass his physical? There are five ways this could go...
a) he passes the physical and is immediately released, saving the team $3M under the cap.
b) he passes the physical and accepts a significant paycut, thus allowing him to compete for the starting job he lost to Casillas last year.
c) he passes the physical and is allowed to compete in camp under his current salary (meaning the Giants run the risk of being on the hook for $3M should he tear his ACL in camp and wind up on IR again.
d) he fails the physical and is released with a $1M injury settlement.
e) he fails the physical and is placed on PUP, allowing the Giants to put off releasing him in the hope that he can pass his physical before the end of camp (at which time the Giants could release him sans injury settlement).

3. Does Odighizuwa report for camp? I'm hoping he doesn't, because if he does, I see little chance of him making the team. But if he doesn't, the Giants can put him on NFI at no cost, allowing them to retain his rights should he manage to get his head straight for a return to the team in 2018.
Those are 3 good ones.  
ZogZerg : 7/24/2017 6:52 am : link
Ellison is the one I am most concerned about.

Another question -

What guys have injuries that we don't know about right now? We'll find out.
The answers to 2 & 3  
Jimmy Googs : 7/24/2017 6:59 am : link
are pretty far down the list of importance to this team imo...
Ideally....  
TyFromQueens : 7/24/2017 7:06 am : link
I would like DoubleO to report and make the squad. Especially over Wynn.
But honestly,Neither player is guaranteed. I just have a heard time with us only keeping 4 DE's.
Hopefully he gets it together.

Let's hope and pray Ellison is healthy. His blocking is needed.
If not,is Will Johnson still an option?
Very good post with tangent points  
SGMen : 7/24/2017 7:29 am : link
I am really hoping Rhett Ellison is a FULL GO & all healed. We spent good money on him and his blocking is key to this offense's OT protections and helps.

JT Thomas, my gut tells me he passes the physical (its been 10.5 months now, I believe) and is forced to take a paycut with incentives.

Just hoping we have a healthy start, 6 weeks, and finish along with a healthy game 1 win over hated Dallas.
RE: Ideally....  
Gatorade Dunk : 7/24/2017 7:31 am : link
In comment 13537176 TyFromQueens said:
Quote:
I would like DoubleO to report and make the squad. Especially over Wynn.
But honestly,Neither player is guaranteed. I just have a heard time with us only keeping 4 DE's.
Hopefully he gets it together.

Let's hope and pray Ellison is healthy. His blocking is needed.
If not,is Will Johnson still an option?

You can get to 5 DEs without OO or Wynn (and keep the top 5 DEs in the process, IMO): JPP, OV, Okwara, Taylor, Moss.
RE: Ideally....  
Milton : 7/24/2017 7:38 am : link
In comment 13537176 TyFromQueens said:
Quote:
I would like DoubleO to report and make the squad.
I just don't see him making the squad given the current competition at the position and his disappearance from every aspect of the off-season program. I think he has a better shot next year if he is able to put whatever issues he is having behind him and participates fully in the off-season program. It's not just Wynn ahead of him on the depth chart, there's also Okwara and Devin Taylor to compete with. Of course, a depth chart can get depleted pretty quickly when the pads come on, but still....
RE: The answers to 2 & 3  
Milton : 7/24/2017 7:40 am : link
In comment 13537174 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
are pretty far down the list of importance to this team imo...
Yes, but the most important questions won't be answered for weeks and months. These are questions that will be answered by the end of the week. You get what you pay for.
RE: RE: Ideally....  
Milton : 7/24/2017 7:42 am : link
In comment 13537179 Milton said:
Quote:
It's not just Wynn ahead of him on the depth chart, there's also Okwara and Devin Taylor to compete with.
And I left out Avery Moss, whose 5th round draft pick status makes him almost a lock to make the 53 (when was the last time the Giants cut a 5th round pick?).
RE: The answers to 2 & 3  
Klaatu : 7/24/2017 7:52 am : link
In comment 13537174 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
are pretty far down the list of importance to this team imo...


Maybe so, but the first question is pretty freakin' important.
Milton, really good points to consider, thanks  
joeinpa : 7/24/2017 7:56 am : link
Thomas is a big disappointment. When Giants signed him, two West Virginia grads, friends of mine,who played for West Virginia, one of which went on to a 10 year NFL career, were gushing about this guy.

They couldn't say enough about his athlectism. I was very excited by the signing. The guy never made plays even when he was able to stay in the field.
RE: RE: The answers to 2 & 3  
Jimmy Googs : 7/24/2017 8:00 am : link
In comment 13537180 Milton said:
Quote:
In comment 13537174 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


are pretty far down the list of importance to this team imo...

Yes, but the most important questions won't be answered for weeks and months. These are questions that will be answered by the end of the week. You get what you pay for.


Ok so what are the most important ones? Is offense clicking, are Flowers and Hart doing better, how is the running game, is BJ Goodson the goods, and is DThompson back on track?
RE: RE: The answers to 2 & 3  
Jimmy Googs : 7/24/2017 8:01 am : link
In comment 13537187 Klaatu said:
Quote:
In comment 13537174 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


are pretty far down the list of importance to this team imo...



Maybe so, but the first question is pretty freakin' important.


Ya think...
MY cave  
grizz299 : 7/24/2017 8:30 am : link
must have been without electricity....When did Ellison get hurt? Was is it in the optional training camps? Or was he damaged goods when he came from Minny?
Read these posts every day and this one got by me. Info please....
RE: MY cave  
Milton : 7/24/2017 8:38 am : link
In comment 13537203 grizz299 said:
Quote:
must have been without electricity....When did Ellison get hurt?
Not sure when he first got hurt. Here's a blurb from June...
Quote:
Ellison (calf) was able to run on the sidelines during June's mandatory minicamp, Paul Schwartz of The New York Post reports. "I anticipate him for training camp,'' head coach Ben McAdoo said.
Ellison sat out OTAs due to calf soreness, so it's encouraging that he was more active during minicamp. His issue never appeared to be all that serious in any case, but it still isn't certain whether he'll be full speed when training camp rolls around next month.
god  
John from Atlanta : 7/24/2017 9:38 am : link
help this team if Ellison misses long stretches.
RE: god  
BillT : 7/24/2017 10:01 am : link
In comment 13537253 John from Atlanta said:
Quote:
help this team if Ellison misses long stretches.

I want Ellison healthy too but this is way over the top. With Adams in his second year and even LaCrosse showing well in OTAs it wouldn't be the ed of the world if they lost Ellison. There are far more important players than Ellison who would be devastating to lose.
RE: RE: god  
John from Atlanta : 7/24/2017 10:20 am : link
In comment 13537274 BillT said:
Quote:
In comment 13537253 John from Atlanta said:


Quote:


help this team if Ellison misses long stretches.


I want Ellison healthy too but this is way over the top. With Adams in his second year and even LaCrosse showing well in OTAs it wouldn't be the ed of the world if they lost Ellison. There are far more important players than Ellison who would be devastating to lose.
haha it was way over the top for sure.

That being said, I have zero belief in Lacrosse staying healthy let alone being an effective player.

To be more blunt, if this team doesn't have a te who can block they will continue to field one of the worst offensives in football. Can Adams be that guy? Maybe and I hope so. I dont think Engram will be an effective blocker for at least a year, if ever, nor do I think thats why he was drafted which is fine. But you make a legit point about Adams.
RE: RE: RE: god  
Gatorade Dunk : 7/24/2017 10:31 am : link
In comment 13537304 John from Atlanta said:
Quote:
In comment 13537274 BillT said:


Quote:


In comment 13537253 John from Atlanta said:


Quote:


help this team if Ellison misses long stretches.


I want Ellison healthy too but this is way over the top. With Adams in his second year and even LaCrosse showing well in OTAs it wouldn't be the ed of the world if they lost Ellison. There are far more important players than Ellison who would be devastating to lose.

haha it was way over the top for sure.

That being said, I have zero belief in Lacrosse staying healthy let alone being an effective player.

To be more blunt, if this team doesn't have a te who can block they will continue to field one of the worst offensives in football. Can Adams be that guy? Maybe and I hope so. I dont think Engram will be an effective blocker for at least a year, if ever, nor do I think thats why he was drafted which is fine. But you make a legit point about Adams.

More hyperbole. Keep it comin'.
Thomas  
allstarjim : 7/24/2017 10:31 am : link
I hope he makes the team. Who is our move linebacker if Casillas goes down if not Thomas? Keenan Robinson, probably. I'd be ok with that but I believe having Thomas on the roster is good for depth.
RE: RE: RE: RE: god  
John from Atlanta : 7/24/2017 10:36 am : link
In comment 13537316 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 13537304 John from Atlanta said:


Quote:


In comment 13537274 BillT said:


Quote:


In comment 13537253 John from Atlanta said:


Quote:


help this team if Ellison misses long stretches.


I want Ellison healthy too but this is way over the top. With Adams in his second year and even LaCrosse showing well in OTAs it wouldn't be the ed of the world if they lost Ellison. There are far more important players than Ellison who would be devastating to lose.

haha it was way over the top for sure.

That being said, I have zero belief in Lacrosse staying healthy let alone being an effective player.

To be more blunt, if this team doesn't have a te who can block they will continue to field one of the worst offensives in football. Can Adams be that guy? Maybe and I hope so. I dont think Engram will be an effective blocker for at least a year, if ever, nor do I think thats why he was drafted which is fine. But you make a legit point about Adams.


More hyperbole. Keep it comin'.
Were the Giants not one of the worst offensives in football last year or am I crazy?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: god  
Gatorade Dunk : 7/24/2017 10:42 am : link
In comment 13537321 John from Atlanta said:
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In comment 13537316 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 13537304 John from Atlanta said:


Quote:


In comment 13537274 BillT said:


Quote:


In comment 13537253 John from Atlanta said:


Quote:


help this team if Ellison misses long stretches.


I want Ellison healthy too but this is way over the top. With Adams in his second year and even LaCrosse showing well in OTAs it wouldn't be the ed of the world if they lost Ellison. There are far more important players than Ellison who would be devastating to lose.

haha it was way over the top for sure.

That being said, I have zero belief in Lacrosse staying healthy let alone being an effective player.

To be more blunt, if this team doesn't have a te who can block they will continue to field one of the worst offensives in football. Can Adams be that guy? Maybe and I hope so. I dont think Engram will be an effective blocker for at least a year, if ever, nor do I think thats why he was drafted which is fine. But you make a legit point about Adams.


More hyperbole. Keep it comin'.

Were the Giants not one of the worst offensives in football last year or am I crazy?

Did the Giants have Marshall, Engram or a healthy Vereen last year? Did they use Perkins as their starting RB instead of a washed-up Jennings? Did they have a healthy Richburg? And further, you seem to be assuming no YOY improvement from the OL; only the blocking TE role can improve the offense, apparently.

Jury's still out on whether you're crazy. I guess we'll find out when we figure out your previous handle.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: god  
John from Atlanta : 7/24/2017 10:50 am : link
In comment 13537338 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 13537321 John from Atlanta said:


Quote:


In comment 13537316 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 13537304 John from Atlanta said:


Quote:


In comment 13537274 BillT said:


Quote:


In comment 13537253 John from Atlanta said:


Quote:


help this team if Ellison misses long stretches.


I want Ellison healthy too but this is way over the top. With Adams in his second year and even LaCrosse showing well in OTAs it wouldn't be the ed of the world if they lost Ellison. There are far more important players than Ellison who would be devastating to lose.

haha it was way over the top for sure.

That being said, I have zero belief in Lacrosse staying healthy let alone being an effective player.

To be more blunt, if this team doesn't have a te who can block they will continue to field one of the worst offensives in football. Can Adams be that guy? Maybe and I hope so. I dont think Engram will be an effective blocker for at least a year, if ever, nor do I think thats why he was drafted which is fine. But you make a legit point about Adams.


More hyperbole. Keep it comin'.

Were the Giants not one of the worst offensives in football last year or am I crazy?


Did the Giants have Marshall, Engram or a healthy Vereen last year? Did they use Perkins as their starting RB instead of a washed-up Jennings? Did they have a healthy Richburg? And further, you seem to be assuming no YOY improvement from the OL; only the blocking TE role can improve the offense, apparently.

Jury's still out on whether you're crazy. I guess we'll find out when we figure out your previous handle.


The Giants did have awful skill players last year out of ODB. No doubt.

However, Im a strong believer that skill players shine when the O-line can protect the qb and you can run the ball. I do expect improvement just based on the additon of said skill players(despite one being a rookie who has never played on down in the NFL.)

As for the injuries on the O-line, please, the Giants were reasonably healthy in that regard.

As for year to year improvement. It could just as easily not happen as it could happen. How many other teams are banking on internal improvement? Lots. Its a crapshoot. I believe with a legit blockin TE this team an cover any OT deficiencies. Without that, expecting the OL to take a step forward thats significant is I think coin flip at best. Flowers regressed in year two. Hart on the other hand could improve significantly but isn't quite drafted in a round where thats any given.
RE: Thomas  
Milton : 7/24/2017 10:53 am : link
In comment 13537318 allstarjim said:
Quote:
I hope he makes the team. Who is our move linebacker if Casillas goes down if not Thomas? Keenan Robinson, probably. I'd be ok with that but I believe having Thomas on the roster is good for depth.
But not at the $3M price tag. Ideally he shows up healthy and takes a pay cut.
When did Ellison injure his calf?  
Beer Man : 7/24/2017 11:44 am : link
And what grade was it? According to a few medical sights:
1. Grade-1 micro tear, 2 to 4 weeks
2. Grade-2 Partial tear, 4 to 8 weeks
3. Grade-3 complete tear, 3 to 4 months

I had a grade-2 some years back. It felt good after 5-weeks, so I tried to return to running. The first mile out it tore again, it then took the full 8-weeks to heal
I heard a baseball manager say this AM that in general  
WillieYoung : 7/24/2017 3:11 pm : link
they don't classify tears in grades anymore because it implies a difference in kind rather than points along a continuim. In other words there may be a grade 1.47 and a grade 1.59. it makes no sense to call one a grade 1 and expect one set of healing times and the other a grade 2 and expect something different.
RE: MY cave  
Gatorade Dunk : 7/24/2017 5:48 pm : link
In comment 13537203 grizz299 said:
Quote:
must have been without electricity....When did Ellison get hurt? Was is it in the optional training camps? Or was he damaged goods when he came from Minny?
Read these posts every day and this one got by me. Info please....

Link - ( New Window )
RE: RE: Ideally....  
TyFromQueens : 7/25/2017 4:40 am : link
In comment 13537178 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 13537176 TyFromQueens said:


Quote:


I would like DoubleO to report and make the squad. Especially over Wynn.
But honestly,Neither player is guaranteed. I just have a heard time with us only keeping 4 DE's.
Hopefully he gets it together.

Let's hope and pray Ellison is healthy. His blocking is needed.
If not,is Will Johnson still an option?


You can get to 5 DEs without OO or Wynn (and keep the top 5 DEs in the process, IMO): JPP, OV, Okwara, Taylor, Moss.


Totally forgot about Moss.
Shucks, Double O might be done. Hopefully he shows up to camp. He's a third rd pick. To lose him just like that..
RE: RE: RE: Ideally....  
Milton : 7/25/2017 6:05 am : link
In comment 13538026 TyFromQueens said:
Quote:
Shucks, Double O might be done. Hopefully he shows up to camp. He's a third rd pick. To lose him just like that..
The Giants might have a better chance of keeping/developing him if he doesn't show up for camp. If he shows, I think his only chance of making the team is if there is a run on season-ending injuries at the position. But if he doesn't show, the Giants retain his rights at no cost. He could return next year, participate in OTA's, and re-establish himself as a football player. And Wynn and Taylor are on one-year deals, so even if one or both of them make the roster, who's to say they will be back next year.

In any case, I'm not expecting Odigi to show. After all, he didn't show up for mandatory mini-camp or any OTA, so why should we think anything has changed over the last month?
I have Grade-4 tears,  
Doomster : 7/25/2017 9:22 am : link
when guys slam me for what I have written....

Milt, what time do you go to sleep out on the west coast?
RE: I have Grade-4 tears,  
Milton : 7/25/2017 9:54 am : link
In comment 13538089 Doomster said:
Quote:
Milt, what time do you go to sleep out on the west coast?
I'm on a weird schedule and haven't had a full "night" of sleep in days, basically catching one two-or-three hour nap in the afternoon and another two-or-three hour nap in the late evening. I've been up since midnight PCT and not sure when I'll catch my next "nap".
Nice OP Milton, good questions  
Sect 146 : 7/25/2017 10:51 am : link
especially the first one. I think a good blocking TE is pivitol to offensive improvement and getting the most out of our 1st rounder by letting Engram play to his strength as a route running TE. Although we do have other options if he goes down they are not experienced enough to be comfortable with them heading into the season. Do not want another Will Johnson scenario!

The Thomas question is interesting but not as impactfull as I feel we have some legit players ahead of him and could get by if he is out.

As for Odi, I feel he is not making the cut with the depth of players in front of him and given his recent issues. Maybe they can put him on IR with "mental problems"?? A bigger question for me would be does Mikel Thompson ever really get healthy and can he make the squad as a back up/slot corner/safety. Or can Berhe learn to hit with his shoulder and not his head. I think depth at safety or secondary is a bigger issue that LB.
RE: Nice OP Milton, good questions  
Milton : 7/25/2017 11:27 am : link
In comment 13538215 Sect 146 said:
Quote:
I think a good blocking TE is pivitol to offensive improvement and getting the most out of our 1st rounder by letting Engram play to his strength as a route running TE. Although we do have other options if he goes down they are not experienced enough to be comfortable with them heading into the season. Do not want another Will Johnson scenario!
Yes, the Will Johnson scenario is not one we want to see repeated. He was signed to be a role player, but it was a role no one else could fill once he went down and it had a huge impact on the offense last year.

Quote:
As for Odi, I feel he is not making the cut with the depth of players in front of him and given his recent issues. Maybe they can put him on IR with "mental problems"??
No, but if he fails to report for training camp, they can place him on some kind of failure-to-report list (I don't think it's the NFI, which I mentioned earlier, because that's re: injury) which allows them to retain his rights (along with a roster exemption) and fine him for missing practices. If he files retirement papers, he can avoid fines, but the Giants still retain his rights if he wants to return to the game the following year. I'm sure the Giants have been in contact with him and some kind of understanding has been reached one way or another. I'd be surprised if he shows up for camp at this point, but without knowing what his issues are, I can't say for sure. We'll find out more in the next few days.

Quote:
A bigger question for me would be does Mikel Thompson ever really get healthy and can he make the squad as a back up/slot corner/safety. Or can Berhe learn to hit with his shoulder and not his head. I think depth at safety or secondary is a bigger issue that LB.
These are questions that will take time to know the answers, but I agree with you that M. Thompson shining as in the nickel CB role and also at free safety would be a huge help when it comes to match-ups and overall DB depth.
'Double 0...Especially over Wynn.'  
Torrag : 7/25/2017 11:56 am : link
Wynn has easily outplayed 02 since he s drafted. it not even close. So your preference makes no sense.
RE: 'Double 0...Especially over Wynn.'  
Milton : 7/25/2017 12:21 pm : link
In comment 13538325 Torrag said:
Quote:
Wynn has easily outplayed 02 since he s drafted. it not even close. So your preference makes no sense.
It could be argued that Odigi is under contract for two more years for less money than what Wynn will make under the one year tender he signed and that Odigi has much greater upside should the light go on. What you see is what you get with Wynn, he'll never be special, he'll never be what you're looking for from a starting DE. Odigi, on the other hand, is a boom or bust talent who's been a bust his first two years, but who are we to say the door is closed on him ever reach that potential (after two years of disappointing play, they haven't given up on Flowers). I'm not advocating for Odigi over Wynn, but I can understand the logic in rooting for him to win the battle between the two.
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