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NFT: Game of Thrones - Season 7 Episode 4: The Spoil(er)s of War

Big Blue Blogger : 8/1/2017 2:55 pm
In a season marked by extensive leaks and detective work, this might be the episode that has been spoiled in the greatest detail. And that was before the script was allegedly hacked this week. I'll try to avoid any of the leaked material. That said, the Episode Four preview gave away a lot, and the prior spoilers color the interpretation of certain shots. In short, READ NO FURTHER IF YOU WISH TO REMAIN UNSULLIED.

1) Cersei appears to have secured the Iron Bank's support, contingent on safe delivery of the Tyrell gold.

2) Jaime has taken possession of the loot that provides the episode's title, but he looks less than confident about transporting it. Long, Westworldesque establishing shots suggest that he and Bronn have a lot of open ground to cross, which could be a problem when the enemy has a Dothraki horde (unbeatable in the open plain) and three you-know-whats.

3) Speaking of the you-know-whats, Daenerys has lost her Westerosi allies and most of her patience with Tyrion's clever plans. It's just about "Dracarys" time. I figured Dany would hold her, um, fire for another week or two; but when a preview closes with a shot of Drogon, somebody's gonna get lit up.

4) Jon is exploring caverns by torchlight. Is that obsidian on the walls?

5) Theon appears to get his groove back - at least enough to pull a rowboat ashore with a determined expression.

6) A lone, diminutive rider eyes Winterfell from a distance. By all appearances, a girl returns home.

7) Sansa exudes administrative competence.

8) Baelish exudes whatever it is Baelish always exudes.

9) Pod takes another beating - probably from Brienne, but at some point he and his magic dick are going to see actual combat.

10) A dagger - possibly one we've been wondering about for quite a while - figures prominently.

11) Another quiet week north of the Wall. I'm not sure who's slower - Gendry in a boat or the Night's King on horseback.
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RE: I find it believable  
Pete in 'Vliet : 8/3/2017 9:17 am : link
In comment 13548163 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
that Rhaegar was in love or in lust at least with Lyanna, but that she also loved him and willingly had sex with him may be a show plot but I doubt the books would suggest that. For one, agree with Bill, it's not honorable which is the prevailing Stark trait.

second, the whole rebellion started because two people fell in love but decided it would be wiser to pretend he kidnapped and raped her (leading to the mad king ordering the deaths of her brother and father).

Why leave Lyanna holed up in the Tower of Joy defended by their best swordsman while he went off to fight Robert and his forces at the Battle of the Trident (where he eventually died I think), if she loved him too and was she being held against her will, why not just leave her free knowing she'd stay because she loved him too?

One other piece of information against this is that one of Rhaegar's men at the Tower of Joy was Arthur Dayne, from Dorne, wouldn't he have been at least a little offended, like the rest of Dorne, that Ella was jilted for a Stark? Yet Dayne fought to stop the Stark forces from rescuing Lyanna at the Tower of Joy (and where we know Ned "dishonorably" mercifully beheaded Dayne).

Just doesn't fit to me, seems like it could be a convenient show plot, but I doubt the books go there.


I figured the kings guard knight were there for her (and the baby's) protection. Robert was an angry man who was promissed Lyanna by the Stark family.

Lyanna's only choices were probably forget Rheagar and live the life of a lady in a castle married to an abbusive man in Robert, or run away with Rhaegar who will defeat Robert and she can mend relations with her family later.

Ned and her other brothers would always take the honorable choice, but again we don't know much about who Lyanna was.
At that point  
pjcas18 : 8/3/2017 9:24 am : link
Tower of Joy I mean, everyone still felt Lyanna was kidnapped.

So, how could Robert's pride put her in danger? If anything he'd want to rescue her, just like the Ned and his forces tried to do/did.

I don't believe anyone felt the kidnap was a ruse, so I don't find it believable Robert would be interested in harming Lyanna (especially with Ned his close friend) so they'd need to protect her from the Starks/Robert.

Not believable to me.
RE: RE: I find it believable  
Kevin in Annapolis : 8/3/2017 9:27 am : link
In comment 13548187 Pete in 'Vliet said:
Quote:

Ned and her other brothers would always take the honorable choice, but again we don't know much about who Lyanna was.


Ned's older brother (at least in the books) isn't necessary painted with the same honorable brush as Ned. He is not without honor, but is also a womanizer like Robert.
Lyanna was like Arya personality-wise  
beatrixkiddo : 8/3/2017 9:35 am : link
in that she was more free spirited and not your typical lady-like (young Sansa figure), which is why Ned said Arya reminds him of her. However, it was spoken at length that she was quite pretty. Lyanna was supposed to have an arranged marriage with Robert from their fathers, but Lyanna didn't care for him or the idea of an arranged marriage. The tourney as described by Howland Reed was where we first heard of Rhaegar and Lyana's encounter, and it seems Rhaegar was completely infatuated with her. He left his wife in Dorne because of the visions he had and to fullfill the Prince that was Promised Prophecy, He left his Kingsguard there at the Tower of Joy for a significant reason, he knew he would die, it was about protecting Lyana and the future heir. Sir Arthur Dayne's presence at the Tower of Joy with other Kings guard is quite significant as too telling who the next line of succession for the crown would go to. That being said, I don't know how the show will get to showing this, most likely through Bran and whatever the Maester's may be able to dig up document wise proving this.

RE: At that point  
Pete in 'Vliet : 8/3/2017 9:40 am : link
In comment 13548195 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
Tower of Joy I mean, everyone still felt Lyanna was kidnapped.

So, how could Robert's pride put her in danger? If anything he'd want to rescue her, just like the Ned and his forces tried to do/did.

I don't believe anyone felt the kidnap was a ruse, so I don't find it believable Robert would be interested in harming Lyanna (especially with Ned his close friend) so they'd need to protect her from the Starks/Robert.

Not believable to me.



He would be very interested in harming that baby. Wouldn't he?
RE: RE: At that point  
pjcas18 : 8/3/2017 9:45 am : link
In comment 13548222 Pete in 'Vliet said:
Quote:
In comment 13548195 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


Tower of Joy I mean, everyone still felt Lyanna was kidnapped.

So, how could Robert's pride put her in danger? If anything he'd want to rescue her, just like the Ned and his forces tried to do/did.

I don't believe anyone felt the kidnap was a ruse, so I don't find it believable Robert would be interested in harming Lyanna (especially with Ned his close friend) so they'd need to protect her from the Starks/Robert.

Not believable to me.




He would be very interested in harming that baby. Wouldn't he?


How did he know she was pregnant?
RE: Lyanna was like Arya personality-wise  
Pete in 'Vliet : 8/3/2017 9:48 am : link
In comment 13548215 beatrixkiddo said:
Quote:
in that she was more free spirited and not your typical lady-like (young Sansa figure), which is why Ned said Arya reminds him of her. However, it was spoken at length that she was quite pretty. Lyanna was supposed to have an arranged marriage with Robert from their fathers, but Lyanna didn't care for him or the idea of an arranged marriage. The tourney as described by Howland Reed was where we first heard of Rhaegar and Lyana's encounter, and it seems Rhaegar was completely infatuated with her. He left his wife in Dorne because of the visions he had and to fullfill the Prince that was Promised Prophecy, He left his Kingsguard there at the Tower of Joy for a significant reason, he knew he would die, it was about protecting Lyana and the future heir. Sir Arthur Dayne's presence at the Tower of Joy with other Kings guard is quite significant as too telling who the next line of succession for the crown would go to. That being said, I don't know how the show will get to showing this, most likely through Bran and whatever the Maester's may be able to dig up document wise proving this.



Yes, this is my point. She just didn't want to be with Robert, who was quick tempered. Just like Arya, she didn't want to live the life of a Lady in a castle. From what I know of Robert, from season 1, he would have given her a backhand accross the face after Rhaegar placed the flowers on her lap (maybe he did).

And from what Barristan told Dany about Rhaegar, his men loved him, including Authur Dayne. I can see Dayne honoring the wishes of his freind and man he was sworn to obey and protect.
He leaves Dayne at the tower  
Kyle in NY : 8/3/2017 9:48 am : link
to obviously protect Lyanna but more so to protect the baby, who at that point he may now believe to be the prince who was promised. And Robert would absolutely want to harm the baby. Dayne was Rhaegar's best friend in the world. He would do anything he asked of him. And if Dayne and the others were at the Trident, it's very likely that battle goes differently, he was that deadly. So I think the fact that Rhaegar placed such importance in protecting that baby, signifies that it was true love for each side. It was said that Rhaegar died at the Trident saying Lyanna's name in his final breaths.

I understand the Starks are honorable, but that doesn't mean they weren't capable of single "dishonorable acts." And like Pete said, we really do not know a lot about Lyanna. We know how Robert felt about her, but we don't know if those feelings were felt in return.



RE: RE: RE: At that point  
Pete in 'Vliet : 8/3/2017 9:49 am : link
In comment 13548226 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 13548222 Pete in 'Vliet said:


Quote:


In comment 13548195 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


Tower of Joy I mean, everyone still felt Lyanna was kidnapped.

So, how could Robert's pride put her in danger? If anything he'd want to rescue her, just like the Ned and his forces tried to do/did.

I don't believe anyone felt the kidnap was a ruse, so I don't find it believable Robert would be interested in harming Lyanna (especially with Ned his close friend) so they'd need to protect her from the Starks/Robert.

Not believable to me.




He would be very interested in harming that baby. Wouldn't he?



How did he know she was pregnant?


I don't know about you, but I can eventually tell when a woman is pregnant. She wasn't going to hide that from him for too long.
So Lyanna hid away so her baby wouldn't be discovered  
Pete in 'Vliet : 8/3/2017 9:52 am : link
Rhaegar had his men watch the tower, because if Robert or Ned found her pregnant, that baby wouldn't stand a chance. Luckliy Ned was a beter man than Rhaegar thought.
RE: RE: RE: RE: At that point  
pjcas18 : 8/3/2017 9:53 am : link
In comment 13548231 Pete in 'Vliet said:
Quote:
In comment 13548226 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


In comment 13548222 Pete in 'Vliet said:


Quote:


In comment 13548195 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


Tower of Joy I mean, everyone still felt Lyanna was kidnapped.

So, how could Robert's pride put her in danger? If anything he'd want to rescue her, just like the Ned and his forces tried to do/did.

I don't believe anyone felt the kidnap was a ruse, so I don't find it believable Robert would be interested in harming Lyanna (especially with Ned his close friend) so they'd need to protect her from the Starks/Robert.

Not believable to me.




He would be very interested in harming that baby. Wouldn't he?



How did he know she was pregnant?



I don't know about you, but I can eventually tell when a woman is pregnant. She wasn't going to hide that from him for too long.


So Robert has seen Lyanna since she was kidnapped (and raped) by Rhaegar and knew she was pregnant?

that is news to me. I did not realize this.

I assumed since the kidnapping, Lyanna was not seen by Robert or any of the Starks and that led them to believe she was being held against her will and like I said that event along with the executions of Rickard and Brandon started the whole rebellion.

I don't understand what you are saying  
Pete in 'Vliet : 8/3/2017 10:14 am : link
Of course he didn't see her pregnant or even knew she was.

But if Lyanna stayed around, after falling in love and conceiving wth Rhaegar, he would have found out eventually. So she runs off and hides away, while everyone assumes she is kidnapped. She probably figured Robert would challenge Rhaegar and lose and she could try to patch things up with her family and the Arryns later.

But the mad king was...mad. So when papa and brother Stark show up demanding Lyanna, he burns them for defying their king. Then things get way out of control. War starts, so Rhaegar has her protected in the tower. Robert then kills Rhaegar, and Lyanna ends up dying in childbirth.

Again this is just speculation by me, but it is not hard to see how this can play out with Lyanna willing going with Rhaegar instead of being kidnapped and raped.
Especially since everything we've been told about Rhaegar  
Pete in 'Vliet : 8/3/2017 10:16 am : link
in the show, paints him as a man who was not capable of kidnapping and raping. Maybe the books make him look like more of a monster.
Seems  
pjcas18 : 8/3/2017 10:24 am : link
far-fetched. Not saying it won't be shown that way, it could happen, but it's very convenient IMO (and really changes absolutely nothing since by all accounts Rhaegar was still married to Elia Martell) Jon Snow is a bastard whether by product of rape or love.

Plus, while Lyanna maybe didn't love Robert, her biggest issue with the arranged marriage was Robert's womanizing and feared infidelity.

So you're suggesting that Lyanna would willingly elope with a married man while having hesitation about marrying Robert due to his philandering nature.

I expect better from Martin.
I'm sure the show and books  
Pete in 'Vliet : 8/3/2017 10:25 am : link
will let us know the truth before its all over. At least I hope.
RE: Seems  
Pete in 'Vliet : 8/3/2017 10:25 am : link
In comment 13548283 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
far-fetched. Not saying it won't be shown that way, it could happen, but it's very convenient IMO (and really changes absolutely nothing since by all accounts Rhaegar was still married to Elia Martell) Jon Snow is a bastard whether by product of rape or love.

Plus, while Lyanna maybe didn't love Robert, her biggest issue with the arranged marriage was Robert's womanizing and feared infidelity.

So you're suggesting that Lyanna would willingly elope with a married man while having hesitation about marrying Robert due to his philandering nature.

I expect better from Martin.


Love is a crazy thing ;)
Also,  
Pete in 'Vliet : 8/3/2017 10:27 am : link
I'm not in the "they were secretly married camp" I coun;t care less about Jon legitimacy, ony his bloodline.
RE: Also,  
pjcas18 : 8/3/2017 10:31 am : link
In comment 13548294 Pete in 'Vliet said:
Quote:
I'm not in the "they were secretly married camp" I coun;t care less about Jon legitimacy, ony his bloodline.


if they weren't secretly married, and it was in fact love not rape, nothing changes other than the whole rebellion and thousands of lost lives were done so for no good reason or at least under false pretenses.

I mean Robert probably would have had to fight someone to protect his name, but if Brandon and Rickard knew Lyanna was a willing participant in the charade not sure they react as boldly.

though the mad king would have done mad things, I doubt they would be as forceful with demanding her return and likely not torched.
I think it's more far fetched  
Kyle in NY : 8/3/2017 10:37 am : link
to say that Lyanna was kidnapped and taken against her will and then raped, than it is to say that she went willingly and loved Rhaegar back. That's just the story that the Starks have told, but those that would likely know better (Littlefinger) have strongly hinted that it was no kidnapping

Kidnap and rape really does not fit anything that we've heard about Rhaegar's personality.
RE: RE: Also,  
Kyle in NY : 8/3/2017 10:41 am : link
In comment 13548304 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 13548294 Pete in 'Vliet said:


Quote:


I'm not in the "they were secretly married camp" I coun;t care less about Jon legitimacy, ony his bloodline.



if they weren't secretly married, and it was in fact love not rape, nothing changes other than the whole rebellion and thousands of lost lives were done so for no good reason or at least under false pretenses.

I mean Robert probably would have had to fight someone to protect his name, but if Brandon and Rickard knew Lyanna was a willing participant in the charade not sure they react as boldly.

though the mad king would have done mad things, I doubt they would be as forceful with demanding her return and likely not torched.


I don't think that Brandon and Rickard knew Lyanna's true intentions though. So they went to King's Landing thinking she had been taken against her will.

So Lyanna does shoulder some blame for all of this, a war started under false pretenses. But I don't she ever could have imagined what the Mad King would do.
RE: I think it's more far fetched  
pjcas18 : 8/3/2017 10:46 am : link
In comment 13548312 Kyle in NY said:
Quote:
to say that Lyanna was kidnapped and taken against her will and then raped, than it is to say that she went willingly and loved Rhaegar back. That's just the story that the Starks have told, but those that would likely know better (Littlefinger) have strongly hinted that it was no kidnapping

Kidnap and rape really does not fit anything that we've heard about Rhaegar's personality.


he was also not known as an adulterer or someone who would visit brothels.

It's all largely irrelevant anyway, if they weren't married the fact Jon Snow is a bastard consummated out of love or rape means nothing, a bastard is a bastard, like I said it just means the whole rebellion was carried out under false pretensions and thousands of lived meaninglessly lost.

if they had been married it could change the claim to the throne vs Daenerys.

There are alot of contradictions in both stories  
Pete in 'Vliet : 8/3/2017 10:47 am : link
Why would Rhaegar, who praised by Sir Barristan as a noble and peaceful man, suddenly kidnap and rape this woman?

Why would Lyanna, knowing she is dying, convince her brother to pretend to have ignored his famouse Stark honor, to save the life of a baby conceived through rape?

Why would Authur Dayne still keep this poor rape victim as hostage despite the fact that Rhaegar and Aerys were then already dead?

RE: RE: I think it's more far fetched  
Pete in 'Vliet : 8/3/2017 10:51 am : link
In comment 13548329 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 13548312 Kyle in NY said:


Quote:


to say that Lyanna was kidnapped and taken against her will and then raped, than it is to say that she went willingly and loved Rhaegar back. That's just the story that the Starks have told, but those that would likely know better (Littlefinger) have strongly hinted that it was no kidnapping

Kidnap and rape really does not fit anything that we've heard about Rhaegar's personality.



he was also not known as an adulterer or someone who would visit brothels.

It's all largely irrelevant anyway, if they weren't married the fact Jon Snow is a bastard consummated out of love or rape means nothing, a bastard is a bastard, like I said it just means the whole rebellion was carried out under false pretensions and thousands of lived meaninglessly lost.

if they had been married it could change the claim to the throne vs Daenerys.


It doesn't mean nothing though. Targareon's have special blood and magic abilities through thier genes. Jon has already ashown he doesn't need to be legitimate for people to choose to follow him, but his Targarean blood could make him a dragon rider.
Pete  
Kyle in NY : 8/3/2017 10:52 am : link
Those last two points especially are so key. Just doesn't make sense that it was only a child conceived through rape. Hopefully we get some answers though
But yeah  
Kyle in NY : 8/3/2017 10:54 am : link
like you said pj, there were obviously some miscommunication at the start which at least led to Brandon Stark riding south to demand Rhaegar come out and die, and the start of the rebellion

But if it meant overthrowing the mad king, I don't think it could be considered meaningless. Regardless of the truth with Lyanna.
Jon  
pjcas18 : 8/3/2017 10:54 am : link
has Targaryan blood in him whether it was rape or not, doesn't he? Not sure I get that. If we all accept Rhaegar is his father then rape or not, he's got Targaryan blood so how does Lyanna being raped or not change his bloodline?
It doesn't change his bloodline  
Kyle in NY : 8/3/2017 11:03 am : link
but it helps his claims for legitimacy. It certainly helps his perception in the north as well if he's Lyanna's son born from love rather than rape.
RE: It doesn't change his bloodline  
pjcas18 : 8/3/2017 11:07 am : link
In comment 13548363 Kyle in NY said:
Quote:
but it helps his claims for legitimacy. It certainly helps his perception in the north as well if he's Lyanna's son born from love rather than rape.


Don't you think the North (including his actual Stark cousins) would abandon him and reject his leadership once it's known he's a Targaryan and Stark, not a random Stark bastard?

I wonder even how Jon himself will deal with it, he's so somber he'll be conflicted I bet.
RE: Jon  
Bill L : 8/3/2017 11:10 am : link
In comment 13548345 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
has Targaryan blood in him whether it was rape or not, doesn't he? Not sure I get that. If we all accept Rhaegar is his father then rape or not, he's got Targaryan blood so how does Lyanna being raped or not change his bloodline?
It doesn't change his bloodline, but marriage, I think, puts him ahead of Dany wrt claim of the Iron Throne. Also, not that Dany cares, witness, Daario, but the pairing between she and Jon, should it occur, makes more sense if they are both royalty.
RE: RE: It doesn't change his bloodline  
Bill L : 8/3/2017 11:11 am : link
In comment 13548372 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 13548363 Kyle in NY said:


Quote:


but it helps his claims for legitimacy. It certainly helps his perception in the north as well if he's Lyanna's son born from love rather than rape.



Don't you think the North (including his actual Stark cousins) would abandon him and reject his leadership once it's known he's a Targaryan and Stark, not a random Stark bastard?

I wonder even how Jon himself will deal with it, he's so somber he'll be conflicted I bet.
If he is legitimate, then it unites the two houses.
Agree  
pjcas18 : 8/3/2017 11:13 am : link
if somehow Rhaegar and Lyanna were legitimately married it changes everything, but I haven't heard that as a theory anywhere.

Not sure how things worked in Westeros, but wouldn't he have had to be divorced from Elia first? Someone may have known about that.
It's definitely been speculated  
Kyle in NY : 8/3/2017 11:19 am : link
that they eloped. Mentioned this the other day but Rhaegar's harp could be a key. Where is it?
RE: It's definitely been speculated  
pjcas18 : 8/3/2017 11:28 am : link
In comment 13548393 Kyle in NY said:
Quote:
that they eloped. Mentioned this the other day but Rhaegar's harp could be a key. Where is it?


bigamy or was he divorced? that's what I meant about Elia, the Martells would know, wouldn't they? I mean when the Mountain raped and killed her they held that grudge. I don't see a divorce being a secret.
RE: It's definitely been speculated  
Pete in 'Vliet : 8/3/2017 11:38 am : link
In comment 13548393 Kyle in NY said:
Quote:
that they eloped. Mentioned this the other day but Rhaegar's harp could be a key. Where is it?



Maybe it was hidden in a cave somewhere on Dragonstone by his surviving supporters? Wouldn't that be a cool surprise to find when mining for dragonglass.
I'm not sure  
Kyle in NY : 8/3/2017 11:39 am : link
hard to imagine a divorce happening in that short time span. Bigamy wasn't foreign to the Targaryans though. Aegon had multiple sister wives
RE: RE: It's definitely been speculated  
Kyle in NY : 8/3/2017 11:40 am : link
In comment 13548438 Pete in 'Vliet said:
Quote:
In comment 13548393 Kyle in NY said:


Quote:


that they eloped. Mentioned this the other day but Rhaegar's harp could be a key. Where is it?




Maybe it was hidden in a cave somewhere on Dragonstone by his surviving supporters? Wouldn't that be a cool surprise to find when mining for dragonglass.


Hasn't there been speculation that it is in the winterfell crypts? Would definitely go a long ways towards legitimizing his relationship with Lyanna
RE: RE: RE: It's definitely been speculated  
pjcas18 : 8/3/2017 11:50 am : link
In comment 13548443 Kyle in NY said:
Quote:
In comment 13548438 Pete in 'Vliet said:


Quote:


In comment 13548393 Kyle in NY said:


Quote:


that they eloped. Mentioned this the other day but Rhaegar's harp could be a key. Where is it?




Maybe it was hidden in a cave somewhere on Dragonstone by his surviving supporters? Wouldn't that be a cool surprise to find when mining for dragonglass.



Hasn't there been speculation that it is in the winterfell crypts? Would definitely go a long ways towards legitimizing his relationship with Lyanna


Yes I've read that theory, Lyanna asked Ned to promise to bury her at Winterfell with "her things" and among them was Rhaegar's harp.

It's just a fan theory IMO, but I've also read people say Rhaegar loved his harp and wouldn't have left it at the Tower of Joy. Not sure if he loved it so much leaving it at Dragonstone makes any more sense, but I have read that theory.
We're pretty far afield from S7E4, but what the heck - I'll play.  
Big Blue Blogger : 8/3/2017 11:51 am : link
With regard to Jon's legitimacy, the crucial exchange happened outside the Tower of Joy, between Ned and the Kingsguard. Basically, Hightower and Co. tell Ned that they are there because it's their duty, not as Rhaegar's friends, but as Kingsguard. Note that Aerys and Rhaegar are dead, and their oath binds them to protect the new Targaryen king, whoever he is. Ned points out that their place then is at Dragonstone, with Viserys. They counter that going to Dragonstone would have been fleeing their duty, not fulfilling it. In other words, the rightful heir is under their protection in Dorne, not with Elia on Dragonstone.

There are some holes in this account, but it stands up to scrutiny better than most ToJ explanations.
This really is an interesting debate.  
Pete in 'Vliet : 8/3/2017 11:58 am : link
Just to throw a bit more out there here is the story of the Knight of the Lauging Tree. I'm sure book readers are famililar with it and all the theories of who the knight could be. If you don't want any possible spoilers at all don't click the link - this maybe could be used in a Bran flashback.

You can probably tell who I believe the knight was and why Rhaegar came back from his search apparently only finding a shield.

No matter who the knight ended up being, this line was interesting "The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head." That sounds like a lady who might let her passion get in the way of honor. Also, poor Benjen.
Knight of the Laughing Tree - ( New Window )
This whole topic  
pjcas18 : 8/3/2017 12:52 pm : link
will also be interesting to see how the books deviate from the show, since from what I recall Jon Connington and "young griff" aka possibly Aegon don't even exist in the show and he's got a better claim than either Jon or Daenerys even if Jon isn't a bastard (though I still think for him not to be a bastard would be terribly convenient).

The Harp  
Bill L : 8/3/2017 2:15 pm : link
maybe that's the reason the show felt the need to reintroduce the tombs, especially with Jon there (the Littlefinger part doesn't make sense in terms of foreshadowing). Just to remind people that they exist.
*Spoiler Alert*  
Pete in 'Vliet : 8/3/2017 2:40 pm : link
At lunch today I saw that there is a 10 second clip of the next episode going around the net. Its bad quaility, but looks like its from a promo and not part of the HBO hacks/leaks (which I have been staying away from).

However it does include a spoiler (of something most know is going to happen anyway) so click at your own risk. I don't think it ruined the surprise that much for me, but instead I'm more excited to see the extended scene and context behind it.

Here is the link to where I saw it.
Training - ( New Window )
Pete: I wouldn't exactly call that a spoiler.  
Big Blue Blogger : 8/4/2017 3:58 am : link
More of a spoiler-spoiler: it suggests that the show-runners won't throw an improbable curveball into that story line... yet. Anyway, thanks for posting.
RE: Pete: I wouldn't exactly call that a spoiler.  
Pete in 'Vliet : 8/4/2017 8:37 am : link
In comment 13549316 Big Blue Blogger said:
Quote:
More of a spoiler-spoiler: it suggests that the show-runners won't throw an improbable curveball into that story line... yet. Anyway, thanks for posting.


True, but its something they have been building toward for a while now, so I wanted to warn everyone in case they want to wait for the HD quality and full context in the episode.
I'm confused  
MetsAreBack : 8/4/2017 10:05 am : link

why would * have a problem with Brienne?
RE: I'm confused  
pjcas18 : 8/4/2017 10:54 am : link
In comment 13549493 MetsAreBack said:
Quote:

why would * have a problem with Brienne?


they were sparring, no problem (from what I could tell)
RE: RE: I'm confused  
Pete in 'Vliet : 8/4/2017 11:52 am : link
In comment 13549569 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 13549493 MetsAreBack said:


Quote:



why would * have a problem with Brienne?



they were sparring, no problem (from what I could tell)


I bet there is also a little "I don't need your protection" point being made there as well.
Putting that clip together with various stills...  
Big Blue Blogger : 8/4/2017 12:34 pm : link
...I think a lot of people in that scene are somewhat troubled by what they see. Impressed, but troubled.

Have we danced around the subject enough? I think anyone who's really determined to avoid spoilers has probably bailed on this thread by now.
RE: Putting that clip together with various stills...  
pjcas18 : 8/4/2017 12:39 pm : link
In comment 13549736 Big Blue Blogger said:
Quote:
...I think a lot of people in that scene are somewhat troubled by what they see. Impressed, but troubled.

Have we danced around the subject enough? I think anyone who's really determined to avoid spoilers has probably bailed on this thread by now.


troubled why? because Arya is now a 4 foot 11 badass? who can hold her own against the manly woman Brienne? the one who defeated Loras Tyrell and was on-par as a "swordsman" with two-handed Jamie.

Brienne is the only real casting decision I question. She was supposed to be uglier. Much uglier, she's not attractive in any way, but she as supposed to be so ugly people couldn't even look at her without mocking her.
Gwendolin Cristie has actually  
Pete in 'Vliet : 8/4/2017 1:01 pm : link
Been a pleasant surprise to me in that role. She may not be ugly like book Brienne, but she can act and she gives it her all in the action scenes. I'd rather have that than a Nicole Bass or Chyna type, who can give all the facial expressions of a wax figure.

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