In a season marked by extensive leaks and detective work, this might be the episode that has been spoiled in the greatest detail. And that was before the script was allegedly hacked this week. I'll try to avoid any of the leaked material. That said, the Episode Four preview gave away a lot, and the prior spoilers color the interpretation of certain shots. In short, READ NO FURTHER IF YOU WISH TO REMAIN UNSULLIED.
1) Cersei appears to have secured the Iron Bank's support, contingent on safe delivery of the Tyrell gold.
2) Jaime has taken possession of the loot that provides the episode's title, but he looks less than confident about transporting it. Long, Westworldesque establishing shots suggest that he and Bronn have a lot of open ground to cross, which could be a problem when the enemy has a Dothraki horde (unbeatable in the open plain) and three you-know-whats.
3) Speaking of the you-know-whats, Daenerys has lost her Westerosi allies and most of her patience with Tyrion's clever plans. It's just about "Dracarys" time. I figured Dany would hold her, um, fire for another week or two; but when a preview closes with a shot of Drogon, somebody's gonna get lit up.
4) Jon is exploring caverns by torchlight. Is that obsidian on the walls?
5) Theon appears to get his groove back - at least enough to pull a rowboat ashore with a determined expression.
6) A lone, diminutive rider eyes Winterfell from a distance. By all appearances, a girl returns home.
7) Sansa exudes administrative competence.
8) Baelish exudes whatever it is Baelish always exudes.
9) Pod takes another beating - probably from Brienne, but at some point he and his magic dick are going to see actual combat.
10) A dagger - possibly one we've been wondering about for quite a while - figures prominently.
11) Another quiet week north of the Wall. I'm not sure who's slower - Gendry in a boat or the Night's King on horseback.
second, the whole rebellion started because two people fell in love but decided it would be wiser to pretend he kidnapped and raped her (leading to the mad king ordering the deaths of her brother and father).
Why leave Lyanna holed up in the Tower of Joy defended by their best swordsman while he went off to fight Robert and his forces at the Battle of the Trident (where he eventually died I think), if she loved him too and was she being held against her will, why not just leave her free knowing she'd stay because she loved him too?
One other piece of information against this is that one of Rhaegar's men at the Tower of Joy was Arthur Dayne, from Dorne, wouldn't he have been at least a little offended, like the rest of Dorne, that Ella was jilted for a Stark? Yet Dayne fought to stop the Stark forces from rescuing Lyanna at the Tower of Joy (and where we know Ned "dishonorably" mercifully beheaded Dayne).
Just doesn't fit to me, seems like it could be a convenient show plot, but I doubt the books go there.
I figured the kings guard knight were there for her (and the baby's) protection. Robert was an angry man who was promissed Lyanna by the Stark family.
Lyanna's only choices were probably forget Rheagar and live the life of a lady in a castle married to an abbusive man in Robert, or run away with Rhaegar who will defeat Robert and she can mend relations with her family later.
Ned and her other brothers would always take the honorable choice, but again we don't know much about who Lyanna was.
So, how could Robert's pride put her in danger? If anything he'd want to rescue her, just like the Ned and his forces tried to do/did.
I don't believe anyone felt the kidnap was a ruse, so I don't find it believable Robert would be interested in harming Lyanna (especially with Ned his close friend) so they'd need to protect her from the Starks/Robert.
Not believable to me.
Ned and her other brothers would always take the honorable choice, but again we don't know much about who Lyanna was.
Ned's older brother (at least in the books) isn't necessary painted with the same honorable brush as Ned. He is not without honor, but is also a womanizer like Robert.
So, how could Robert's pride put her in danger? If anything he'd want to rescue her, just like the Ned and his forces tried to do/did.
I don't believe anyone felt the kidnap was a ruse, so I don't find it believable Robert would be interested in harming Lyanna (especially with Ned his close friend) so they'd need to protect her from the Starks/Robert.
Not believable to me.
He would be very interested in harming that baby. Wouldn't he?
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Tower of Joy I mean, everyone still felt Lyanna was kidnapped.
So, how could Robert's pride put her in danger? If anything he'd want to rescue her, just like the Ned and his forces tried to do/did.
I don't believe anyone felt the kidnap was a ruse, so I don't find it believable Robert would be interested in harming Lyanna (especially with Ned his close friend) so they'd need to protect her from the Starks/Robert.
Not believable to me.
He would be very interested in harming that baby. Wouldn't he?
How did he know she was pregnant?
Yes, this is my point. She just didn't want to be with Robert, who was quick tempered. Just like Arya, she didn't want to live the life of a Lady in a castle. From what I know of Robert, from season 1, he would have given her a backhand accross the face after Rhaegar placed the flowers on her lap (maybe he did).
And from what Barristan told Dany about Rhaegar, his men loved him, including Authur Dayne. I can see Dayne honoring the wishes of his freind and man he was sworn to obey and protect.
I understand the Starks are honorable, but that doesn't mean they weren't capable of single "dishonorable acts." And like Pete said, we really do not know a lot about Lyanna. We know how Robert felt about her, but we don't know if those feelings were felt in return.
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In comment 13548195 pjcas18 said:
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Tower of Joy I mean, everyone still felt Lyanna was kidnapped.
So, how could Robert's pride put her in danger? If anything he'd want to rescue her, just like the Ned and his forces tried to do/did.
I don't believe anyone felt the kidnap was a ruse, so I don't find it believable Robert would be interested in harming Lyanna (especially with Ned his close friend) so they'd need to protect her from the Starks/Robert.
Not believable to me.
He would be very interested in harming that baby. Wouldn't he?
How did he know she was pregnant?
I don't know about you, but I can eventually tell when a woman is pregnant. She wasn't going to hide that from him for too long.
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In comment 13548222 Pete in 'Vliet said:
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In comment 13548195 pjcas18 said:
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Tower of Joy I mean, everyone still felt Lyanna was kidnapped.
So, how could Robert's pride put her in danger? If anything he'd want to rescue her, just like the Ned and his forces tried to do/did.
I don't believe anyone felt the kidnap was a ruse, so I don't find it believable Robert would be interested in harming Lyanna (especially with Ned his close friend) so they'd need to protect her from the Starks/Robert.
Not believable to me.
He would be very interested in harming that baby. Wouldn't he?
How did he know she was pregnant?
I don't know about you, but I can eventually tell when a woman is pregnant. She wasn't going to hide that from him for too long.
So Robert has seen Lyanna since she was kidnapped (and raped) by Rhaegar and knew she was pregnant?
that is news to me. I did not realize this.
I assumed since the kidnapping, Lyanna was not seen by Robert or any of the Starks and that led them to believe she was being held against her will and like I said that event along with the executions of Rickard and Brandon started the whole rebellion.
But if Lyanna stayed around, after falling in love and conceiving wth Rhaegar, he would have found out eventually. So she runs off and hides away, while everyone assumes she is kidnapped. She probably figured Robert would challenge Rhaegar and lose and she could try to patch things up with her family and the Arryns later.
But the mad king was...mad. So when papa and brother Stark show up demanding Lyanna, he burns them for defying their king. Then things get way out of control. War starts, so Rhaegar has her protected in the tower. Robert then kills Rhaegar, and Lyanna ends up dying in childbirth.
Again this is just speculation by me, but it is not hard to see how this can play out with Lyanna willing going with Rhaegar instead of being kidnapped and raped.
Plus, while Lyanna maybe didn't love Robert, her biggest issue with the arranged marriage was Robert's womanizing and feared infidelity.
So you're suggesting that Lyanna would willingly elope with a married man while having hesitation about marrying Robert due to his philandering nature.
I expect better from Martin.
Plus, while Lyanna maybe didn't love Robert, her biggest issue with the arranged marriage was Robert's womanizing and feared infidelity.
So you're suggesting that Lyanna would willingly elope with a married man while having hesitation about marrying Robert due to his philandering nature.
I expect better from Martin.
Love is a crazy thing ;)
if they weren't secretly married, and it was in fact love not rape, nothing changes other than the whole rebellion and thousands of lost lives were done so for no good reason or at least under false pretenses.
I mean Robert probably would have had to fight someone to protect his name, but if Brandon and Rickard knew Lyanna was a willing participant in the charade not sure they react as boldly.
though the mad king would have done mad things, I doubt they would be as forceful with demanding her return and likely not torched.
Kidnap and rape really does not fit anything that we've heard about Rhaegar's personality.
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I'm not in the "they were secretly married camp" I coun;t care less about Jon legitimacy, ony his bloodline.
if they weren't secretly married, and it was in fact love not rape, nothing changes other than the whole rebellion and thousands of lost lives were done so for no good reason or at least under false pretenses.
I mean Robert probably would have had to fight someone to protect his name, but if Brandon and Rickard knew Lyanna was a willing participant in the charade not sure they react as boldly.
though the mad king would have done mad things, I doubt they would be as forceful with demanding her return and likely not torched.
I don't think that Brandon and Rickard knew Lyanna's true intentions though. So they went to King's Landing thinking she had been taken against her will.
So Lyanna does shoulder some blame for all of this, a war started under false pretenses. But I don't she ever could have imagined what the Mad King would do.
Kidnap and rape really does not fit anything that we've heard about Rhaegar's personality.
he was also not known as an adulterer or someone who would visit brothels.
It's all largely irrelevant anyway, if they weren't married the fact Jon Snow is a bastard consummated out of love or rape means nothing, a bastard is a bastard, like I said it just means the whole rebellion was carried out under false pretensions and thousands of lived meaninglessly lost.
if they had been married it could change the claim to the throne vs Daenerys.
Why would Lyanna, knowing she is dying, convince her brother to pretend to have ignored his famouse Stark honor, to save the life of a baby conceived through rape?
Why would Authur Dayne still keep this poor rape victim as hostage despite the fact that Rhaegar and Aerys were then already dead?
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to say that Lyanna was kidnapped and taken against her will and then raped, than it is to say that she went willingly and loved Rhaegar back. That's just the story that the Starks have told, but those that would likely know better (Littlefinger) have strongly hinted that it was no kidnapping
Kidnap and rape really does not fit anything that we've heard about Rhaegar's personality.
he was also not known as an adulterer or someone who would visit brothels.
It's all largely irrelevant anyway, if they weren't married the fact Jon Snow is a bastard consummated out of love or rape means nothing, a bastard is a bastard, like I said it just means the whole rebellion was carried out under false pretensions and thousands of lived meaninglessly lost.
if they had been married it could change the claim to the throne vs Daenerys.
It doesn't mean nothing though. Targareon's have special blood and magic abilities through thier genes. Jon has already ashown he doesn't need to be legitimate for people to choose to follow him, but his Targarean blood could make him a dragon rider.
But if it meant overthrowing the mad king, I don't think it could be considered meaningless. Regardless of the truth with Lyanna.
Don't you think the North (including his actual Stark cousins) would abandon him and reject his leadership once it's known he's a Targaryan and Stark, not a random Stark bastard?
I wonder even how Jon himself will deal with it, he's so somber he'll be conflicted I bet.
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but it helps his claims for legitimacy. It certainly helps his perception in the north as well if he's Lyanna's son born from love rather than rape.
Don't you think the North (including his actual Stark cousins) would abandon him and reject his leadership once it's known he's a Targaryan and Stark, not a random Stark bastard?
I wonder even how Jon himself will deal with it, he's so somber he'll be conflicted I bet.
Not sure how things worked in Westeros, but wouldn't he have had to be divorced from Elia first? Someone may have known about that.
bigamy or was he divorced? that's what I meant about Elia, the Martells would know, wouldn't they? I mean when the Mountain raped and killed her they held that grudge. I don't see a divorce being a secret.
Maybe it was hidden in a cave somewhere on Dragonstone by his surviving supporters? Wouldn't that be a cool surprise to find when mining for dragonglass.
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that they eloped. Mentioned this the other day but Rhaegar's harp could be a key. Where is it?
Maybe it was hidden in a cave somewhere on Dragonstone by his surviving supporters? Wouldn't that be a cool surprise to find when mining for dragonglass.
Hasn't there been speculation that it is in the winterfell crypts? Would definitely go a long ways towards legitimizing his relationship with Lyanna
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In comment 13548393 Kyle in NY said:
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that they eloped. Mentioned this the other day but Rhaegar's harp could be a key. Where is it?
Maybe it was hidden in a cave somewhere on Dragonstone by his surviving supporters? Wouldn't that be a cool surprise to find when mining for dragonglass.
Hasn't there been speculation that it is in the winterfell crypts? Would definitely go a long ways towards legitimizing his relationship with Lyanna
Yes I've read that theory, Lyanna asked Ned to promise to bury her at Winterfell with "her things" and among them was Rhaegar's harp.
It's just a fan theory IMO, but I've also read people say Rhaegar loved his harp and wouldn't have left it at the Tower of Joy. Not sure if he loved it so much leaving it at Dragonstone makes any more sense, but I have read that theory.
There are some holes in this account, but it stands up to scrutiny better than most ToJ explanations.
You can probably tell who I believe the knight was and why Rhaegar came back from his search apparently only finding a shield.
No matter who the knight ended up being, this line was interesting "The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head." That sounds like a lady who might let her passion get in the way of honor. Also, poor Benjen.
Knight of the Laughing Tree - ( New Window )
However it does include a spoiler (of something most know is going to happen anyway) so click at your own risk. I don't think it ruined the surprise that much for me, but instead I'm more excited to see the extended scene and context behind it.
Here is the link to where I saw it.
Training - ( New Window )
True, but its something they have been building toward for a while now, so I wanted to warn everyone in case they want to wait for the HD quality and full context in the episode.
why would * have a problem with Brienne?
why would * have a problem with Brienne?
they were sparring, no problem (from what I could tell)
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why would * have a problem with Brienne?
they were sparring, no problem (from what I could tell)
I bet there is also a little "I don't need your protection" point being made there as well.
Have we danced around the subject enough? I think anyone who's really determined to avoid spoilers has probably bailed on this thread by now.
Have we danced around the subject enough? I think anyone who's really determined to avoid spoilers has probably bailed on this thread by now.
troubled why? because Arya is now a 4 foot 11 badass? who can hold her own against the manly woman Brienne? the one who defeated Loras Tyrell and was on-par as a "swordsman" with two-handed Jamie.
Brienne is the only real casting decision I question. She was supposed to be uglier. Much uglier, she's not attractive in any way, but she as supposed to be so ugly people couldn't even look at her without mocking her.