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8/2 Training Camp Observations

Sy'56 : 8/2/2017 3:55 pm
First off, apologies we didn’t have time to do an interview today. I had to jet out of there at 12:40 today. We were there for the majority of practice, when they moved the team inside the facility we opted to leave, as the meat of the action was over.

Saw Mike Nugent get the kicks today, don’t read in to depth chart stuff there. These guys aren’t going to kick a lot of volume at this point, they may even flip flop each day. This will be a battle that goes to the end. Rosas’ leg is stronger.

OFFENSE NOTES

-Was looking at the OL as much as possible today. When it comes to the first strong, Ereck Flowers still struggles with his pad level. Defenders are constantly getting underneath him, causing him to lean over and bend at the waist, making his hand placement sub-par. More of the same there but he did have a couple of run blocks where his natural power and strength were on full display. That’s one thing he always has, strong punches and ability to anchor. Right guard anyone? OG Justin Pugh got in to a couple fights today. He looks to be the enforcer of this offense, he doesn’t want any of his guy taking extra hits and showed no hesitation in defending them when they did.

-I wanted to get more looks at UDFAs Jessamen Dunker. Early in practice, Dunker impressed me with both straight line and lateral movement. Definitely a plus athlete that can be where he needs to be at the right time. But body wise, he is a year away. He will be one of my practice squad predictions but he did get hurt today, we’ll see there. OT Jarron Jones is at the very beginning of a very long road when it comes to his OT progression. He won’t be a factor on the field this season, not even close. Expectedly so, he looks 2-3 steps behind every time he is out there in live action. My question is, will they use a practice squad spot on him? He will have to show a consistent work ethic and approach if he has any shot.

-Was rough to see WR Shepard go down. I saw the whole process and at first I thought it was an Achilles, he was visibly upset and in pain. A sprained ankle can linger for months and in some cases can be worse than a fracture. Now it’s a waiting and hoping game.

-Who is going to step up in his place? Tavarres King was with the first three WR set. He is the best short area mover of the rest. Quality route runner, can be slippery after the catch. Roger Lewis may have more raw talent but he’s still towards the beginning of his WR maturation process. I see the team trying to get more and more looks at Darius Powe. Physical pass catcher with some ability after the catch. They like the dependability of Dwayne Harris. Could this open a door for the fastest guy on the team, Kevin Snead?

-TEs Matt LaCosse and Jerell Adams caught passes on the all-out move today, a welcoming sign for a team that didn’t get enough from that position in 2016. Hard ti ignore the every down upside of Adams.

DEFENSE NOTES

-This LB core looks angry. All of them. While the group fights may be a little over the top and the coaches supposedly don’t like them, part of me likes the fact these LBs are starting them. They are hitting a little too hard but they are doing it on purpose. It’s a personality trait to a defense that you want. Goodson, Kennard, and Casillas especially were instigating. This defense is VERY physical.

-Still a little confused how this team plans on using LB Stansly Maponga. He is very strong and stout. But I don’t see him performing well in space and he can’t play DE in this scheme. I think he is a 3-4 OLB-only type but maybe NYG has a role for that kind of guy more than we think.

-DT Dalvin Tomlinson got some snaps against first time linemen. He has great short area burst and closing speed. I think there is some more pass rush potential here than I initially thought. On the flip side, he got handled by DJ Fluker a couple times on running plays.

-S Eric Pinkins is interesting to me. There is a lot of talk about backup safeties and I have to think this hybrid S/LB, plus athlete is in the mix. He is a superb athlete with good size. Physical kid and he was performing very well in special team drills.

-I haven’t seen much out of DT Corbin Bryant and with the DL being pretty crowded depth wise, he will need to stand out over the next few days if he is going to make this team.

3 STANDOUTS

-OT Bobby Hart – For the second day in a row, I walked away with a positive impression on Hart. He looks more confident and quick-minded out there. Reacting more so than thinking his way through things. He wins almost all of his physical one on one battles, and his pass protection techniques look like they’ve been cleaned up.

-DE Romeo Okwara – On a team full of physical specimens, Okwara takes the cake. He is by far the most impressive athlete on this team. He is still a little raw and too straight line dependent when it comes to movement, but the tools are there and if NYG is patient, I think he is going to be a good one. Pad level, post-engagement moves, and consistent leverage are things he needs work on but in time, they ae very correctable. I am really excited about him.

-OG DJ Fluker – Really food day for this big man. And I mean BIG. He swallows defenders, even makes DT Harrison look small. I’ll say this about Fluker, if he gets his hands on the man he needs to run block, it’s over. He won every battle I watched him on. I think RG is the perfect home for him.

See ya tomorrow!

August 2 Video
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Thanks Sy  
Marty866b : 8/2/2017 10:33 pm : link
I hope you are correct about "good enough".
RE: Flowers  
arcarsenal : 8/2/2017 10:40 pm : link
In comment 13548003 WillVAB said:
Quote:
I just don't see his technique getting any better. He is who is he is at this point. Don't understand why the Giants don't at least give him some reps at guard in the event he sucks as at tackle again.


The problem is that they simply don't have any better alternative to man LT. I think it's become pretty clear that Flowers would be better inside or at least on the right side - but Fluker seems to be off to a good start @ RG, and Pugh is pretty entrenched @ LG at this point.

We basically have two options - neither of which seem to be better alternatives. One would be flipping Pugh and Flowers - the other would be flipping Hart and Flowers. Flowers would probably be better suited @ RT, but Hart is finally starting to look comfortable there - I'm not sure I'd want to stunt that by putting him on the other side.

It is what it is. I think Flowers is going to get a lot of help from Ellison and I think that was something that was strongly considered when we signed him.
That video The_Boss posted is depressing  
Overseer : 8/2/2017 10:46 pm : link
Vernon hardly even does anything and blows by a head-down Flowers.

Giants have had some good drafts lately and killer FA pickups, but that Flowers pick - one reasonably expects a top 10 Oline pick to pay at least some dividends - has really left a gaping whole on the offense.

Rhett Ellison is going to be a very important player for NY in 2017. By 2018 EF likely will not be the Giants' LT anymore.

Maybe, hopefully, I'm wrong and he improves but that clip is damning cause it's the same glaring weakness we saw his first couple seasons.

Sy,  
big_blue : 8/2/2017 10:49 pm : link
I've seen the videos of OV beating him today - were there any examples of him stoning OV or other DE's in pass protection today? - OV is going to make a lot of people look that way. Is it possible that we are seeing a small sample size of the suck? Or does he look like this on every snap?
I wonder if the Giants bite the bullet  
dpinzow : 8/2/2017 10:56 pm : link
and move Pugh to left tackle (Flowers goes inside to LG)
Pugh - Jones - Richburg - Fluker - Hart  
jogo1 : 8/3/2017 12:07 am : link
is a line I'd be curious to see. Of course it won't happen, but these Flowers tidbits are certainly discouraging.
I still have high hopes for him  
big_blue : 8/3/2017 1:16 am : link
I believe he's been working on his technique but hasn't been able to work on it in a real world senerio - this feels like the first test - I still expect him to suck from time to time but as he gets used to the speed I think it will be less and less of the suck.
RE: RE: Flowers  
giants#1 : 8/3/2017 7:25 am : link
In comment 13548023 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 13548003 WillVAB said:


Quote:


I just don't see his technique getting any better. He is who is he is at this point. Don't understand why the Giants don't at least give him some reps at guard in the event he sucks as at tackle again.



The problem is that they simply don't have any better alternative to man LT. I think it's become pretty clear that Flowers would be better inside or at least on the right side - but Fluker seems to be off to a good start @ RG, and Pugh is pretty entrenched @ LG at this point.

We basically have two options - neither of which seem to be better alternatives. One would be flipping Pugh and Flowers - the other would be flipping Hart and Flowers. Flowers would probably be better suited @ RT, but Hart is finally starting to look comfortable there - I'm not sure I'd want to stunt that by putting him on the other side.

It is what it is. I think Flowers is going to get a lot of help from Ellison and I think that was something that was strongly considered when we signed him.


Yea, its starting to sound like our best hope at this point is that Hart takes a big step forward and becomes at least 'average' at RT. Then at least we can give Flowers extra help with Ellison/Engram and possibly even a FB.
Tough day ...  
Beezer : 8/3/2017 7:32 am : link
... but a bunch of positives in that report.

Thanks so much, Sy!
I'm not too worried  
Bill L : 8/3/2017 7:36 am : link
Even if it's incremental, you will see growth and improvement. He will move faster because he's slimmer. So, I'm not going to base things on whether or not he is good, but whether or not he is better than last year. Beyond that, he wasn't bad on *every* play, so you have a percentages thing to work with. He sounds like he's going to be a good run blocker and with both a better run game and a more balanced approach, which I assume we will have this year, the absolute number of opportunities for Flowers to mess up pass protection are decreased (percentages come into play here again), we have a blocking TE to help and perhaps a FB to help, and if Hart is really much improved, we can slide things over a little more to that side.
RE: RE: Romeo Okwara is more important to the defense than most people know  
Beer Man : 8/3/2017 8:52 am : link
In comment 13547809 adamg said:
Quote:
In comment 13547799 Jay on the Island said:


Quote:


If he can play anywhere near the level of his first career start then this defense can be special. The last two SB championship teams featured 3 good pass rushing DE's. This team currently has two in JPP and Vernon. Okwara, Moss, Taylor, Wynn and Odighizuwa are fighting for that 3rd spot and whoever wins could see a lot of playing time. There have been a few training camp and preseason unknown DE's who looked like potential players only to disappear in the regular season (Trattou, Tracy, Ojomo, etc) but hopefully Okwara is not another one. I am more confident in this kid for some reason. I don't think he is going to be a star but I feel Okwara could end up developing into a starting DE who is solid versus the run and can register 7-8 sacks per season.



I agree. I also expect if McAdoo has any say (and perhaps Spags recognizes this himself), the third and fourth DEs are going to be featured a lot more than they were last year, in light of JPP's injury and the fact that he and OV were the league leaders in snap % among DL generally.

I'm excited to see what Devin Taylor looks like when he finally gets in the ring. He's among the biggest guys on the team. If he and Okwara can both come in in passing situations, pushing both JPP and OV to the inside, we may have a new aces package that can get at the QB (and potentially adding Kennard and Moss in the mix there as well).
True, but if you have Fluker at RG and Flowers at LG you could potentially step back to the days of smash-mouth football, when it didn't matter if the other team knew what was coming, because the OL was going to the win battles and dominate the LOS.
RE: Not to minimize Flowers' struggles...  
John from Atlanta : 8/3/2017 8:54 am : link
In comment 13547696 Klaatu said:
Quote:
But there are some things the Giants can do personnel-wise, scheme-wise, to give him some help in pass-protection. One of the reasons I liked the Ellison signing (even though there were other UFA TEs I liked a bit more) was that he spent his last year in Minnesota virtually joined at T.J. Clemmings' hip, giving the struggling LT as much help as he could. Sure, it would be great if Flowers...ahem...blossomed, but if the Giants have to work around him, I think they'll be able to, especially if they can lock down the right side of the O-Line.
This is dead wrong. You cant scheme around essentially the worst LT in football. Which he is. Move Pugh to LT now.
RE: RE: Not to minimize Flowers' struggles...  
Klaatu : 8/3/2017 8:59 am : link
In comment 13548150 John from Atlanta said:
Quote:
In comment 13547696 Klaatu said:


Quote:


But there are some things the Giants can do personnel-wise, scheme-wise, to give him some help in pass-protection. One of the reasons I liked the Ellison signing (even though there were other UFA TEs I liked a bit more) was that he spent his last year in Minnesota virtually joined at T.J. Clemmings' hip, giving the struggling LT as much help as he could. Sure, it would be great if Flowers...ahem...blossomed, but if the Giants have to work around him, I think they'll be able to, especially if they can lock down the right side of the O-Line.

This is dead wrong. You cant scheme around essentially the worst LT in football. Which he is. Move Pugh to LT now.


You can't? You can't give him any help? You have to leave him out there "on an island," so to speak, all by himself? Gosh, I didn't know that.

I also didn't know that it was impossible for Flowers to improve, even marginally, from his struggles against OV on the first day pads were on. I guess Carl Banks was wrong...Flowers won't get any better, no natter what. I just hope that B in ALB doesn't read this. He might disagree.
You can absolutely work around a bad player at one offensive line spot  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/3/2017 9:17 am : link
What kind of opinion is this? We have seen football teams lose left tackles before and need to play with less than ideal talent.
When people..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/3/2017 9:19 am : link
say things like "dead wrong", why does it always seem to be the following statement is dead wrong?

Quote:
This is dead wrong. You cant scheme around essentially the worst LT in football. Which he is. Move Pugh to LT now


Almost any coach at any level would disagree with this.
RE: RE: RE: Not to minimize Flowers' struggles...  
John from Atlanta : 8/3/2017 9:24 am : link
In comment 13548162 Klaatu said:
Quote:
In comment 13548150 John from Atlanta said:


Quote:


In comment 13547696 Klaatu said:


Quote:


But there are some things the Giants can do personnel-wise, scheme-wise, to give him some help in pass-protection. One of the reasons I liked the Ellison signing (even though there were other UFA TEs I liked a bit more) was that he spent his last year in Minnesota virtually joined at T.J. Clemmings' hip, giving the struggling LT as much help as he could. Sure, it would be great if Flowers...ahem...blossomed, but if the Giants have to work around him, I think they'll be able to, especially if they can lock down the right side of the O-Line.

This is dead wrong. You cant scheme around essentially the worst LT in football. Which he is. Move Pugh to LT now.



You can't? You can't give him any help? You have to leave him out there "on an island," so to speak, all by himself? Gosh, I didn't know that.

I also didn't know that it was impossible for Flowers to improve, even marginally, from his struggles against OV on the first day pads were on. I guess Carl Banks was wrong...Flowers won't get any better, no natter what. I just hope that B in ALB doesn't read this. He might disagree.
Notice what you did there? I said you cant scheme around and you said you "cant give him any help?" Which one do you want to discuss? You cant scheme around a putrid LT. At some point you will have multiple 3rd and longs and two minute drills. Even if you just left a te to have him double team with Flowers every play you are merely weakening another aspect by having one more pass recieving option in. You can help a player when in a bad matchup from time to time. But scheme around the worst LT in football? Impossible and absurd to even try.

Also lock the right side of the line down? Seems like a pure pipe dream to me based on the last half decade.

And I will reiterate Flowers is struggling on a line designed for quick passes. Imagine him on Gilbrides o? Yikes.

Carl Banks? So how many ex football players say things you dont agree with? How many current? Do ex football players agree on everything? Simply put Banks is right he might improve. In that sense I am right an asteroid might hit the earth soon.

It makes zero sense not to move Pugh to LT. The team is capable of winninf a SB and to allow Flowers to ruin that makes zero sense even as a risk. Pugh stabilizes the most important spot on the line from taking it from worst in league to avg. If Flowers improves marginally he is still putrid. And if he played on a team that didnt run a quick throwing offense he would already be cut. No matter what Carl Banks says
RE: Not to minimize Flowers' struggles...  
BigBlueinChicago : 8/3/2017 9:26 am : link
In comment 13547696 Klaatu said:
Quote:
But there are some things the Giants can do personnel-wise, scheme-wise, to give him some help in pass-protection. One of the reasons I liked the Ellison signing (even though there were other UFA TEs I liked a bit more) was that he spent his last year in Minnesota virtually joined at T.J. Clemmings' hip, giving the struggling LT as much help as he could. Sure, it would be great if Flowers...ahem...blossomed, but if the Giants have to work around him, I think they'll be able to, especially if they can lock down the right side of the O-Line.



You do realize that the Giants would not be able to put their optimal offensive unit on the field if they have to assign a second player help Flowers because he can't do the one-on-one assignment himself, correct?

If the Giants are forced to only be able to send 4 guys into a route instead of 5 out of necessity, the defense has an advantage.

Unless the rules changed since February, they will not be able to put 12 guys on the field to pull this off.
RE: When people..  
John from Atlanta : 8/3/2017 9:29 am : link
In comment 13548191 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
say things like "dead wrong", why does it always seem to be the following statement is dead wrong?



Quote:


This is dead wrong. You cant scheme around essentially the worst LT in football. Which he is. Move Pugh to LT now



Almost any coach at any level would disagree with this.
I am unaware you surveyed them? Please publish the results.

Hey, not sure why teams spend big money on LT. Just plug in Ian Allen for the league min and scheme around by keeping another wr option in every down. Yea that wont have any corollary affects by making it much easier to guard you by employing 6 olinemen every obvious passing down.
LOL...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/3/2017 9:34 am : link
Quote:
Unless the rules changed since February, they will not be able to put 12 guys on the field to pull this off


The hyperbole here is staggering. You realize that people are acting as if Flowers is useless and the biggest liability in the league right now?

This is the same bullshit that happens each August. Basically, people are expecting us to play handicapped on offense because of camp reports about flowers having no clue on what his struggles are regarding.

Maybe he's learning a new technique and isn't picking it up immediately. Maybe he isn't going to be good - but I always love the panic here.

Just two days ago, people were making assumptions about Rosas because he "only" went 5 of 8 from 50 yards using a kicking tee. They didn't even realize that when kickers use a tee, they are often working on technique or experimenting with trajectory to understand what they need to do to drive the ball. Instead of thinking more deeply there - they assume Rosas is approaching the drill as if he needs to make a game-winning FG or be cut.

It is madness.
RE: RE: Flowers  
WillVAB : 8/3/2017 9:51 am : link
In comment 13548023 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 13548003 WillVAB said:


Quote:


I just don't see his technique getting any better. He is who is he is at this point. Don't understand why the Giants don't at least give him some reps at guard in the event he sucks as at tackle again.



The problem is that they simply don't have any better alternative to man LT. I think it's become pretty clear that Flowers would be better inside or at least on the right side - but Fluker seems to be off to a good start @ RG, and Pugh is pretty entrenched @ LG at this point.

We basically have two options - neither of which seem to be better alternatives. One would be flipping Pugh and Flowers - the other would be flipping Hart and Flowers. Flowers would probably be better suited @ RT, but Hart is finally starting to look comfortable there - I'm not sure I'd want to stunt that by putting him on the other side.

It is what it is. I think Flowers is going to get a lot of help from Ellison and I think that was something that was strongly considered when we signed him.


I'd flip Pugh and Flowers. Pugh was solid at LT and if Ellison is the savior for Flowers he'd help Pugh as well.

Everything I've seen from Flowers and read about him tells me he needs to be playing in a phone booth. He simply can't handle speed and dealing with guys in space.

Some guys are just better suited for certain spots. Diehl sucked at guard in his waning years but could still get it done at LT. Davis was a horrible LT for the Cards but was a damn good Guard for the Cowboys. The Giants need to explore that option to salvage something if the wheels fall off.

At this point Flowers is a below average LT with the potential to be an upper tier guard. If Pugh prices himself out in the off-season, it would be nice to know we have an equal or better player in Flowers.
RE: LOL...  
John from Atlanta : 8/3/2017 9:58 am : link
In comment 13548212 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:


Quote:


Unless the rules changed since February, they will not be able to put 12 guys on the field to pull this off



The hyperbole here is staggering. You realize that people are acting as if Flowers is useless and the biggest liability in the league right now?

This is the same bullshit that happens each August. Basically, people are expecting us to play handicapped on offense because of camp reports about flowers having no clue on what his struggles are regarding.

Maybe he's learning a new technique and isn't picking it up immediately. Maybe he isn't going to be good - but I always love the panic here.

Just two days ago, people were making assumptions about Rosas because he "only" went 5 of 8 from 50 yards using a kicking tee. They didn't even realize that when kickers use a tee, they are often working on technique or experimenting with trajectory to understand what they need to do to drive the ball. Instead of thinking more deeply there - they assume Rosas is approaching the drill as if he needs to make a game-winning FG or be cut.

It is madness.


Nobody cares about the league. He is the biggest liability on the Giants and its beyond debate, at a position protecting an aging QB. On a roster loaded with SB talent.

All I am suggesting is there is no need to risk him destroying the season. Move Pugh to LT, let Flowers compete for another spot.

The hyperbole is coming from you. Nobody is basing Flowers performance on a few training camp plays, but rather a long string of putrid play being followed up by the same old mistakes, somehow not miraculously fixed by becoming leaner.

Every training camp there is optimism and panic. Are you suggesting that as a result neither is ever justified?

In fact, under that logic, "Everybody is optimistic about rookies in every camp thus no rookie can be good." Madness.
Suggesting..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/3/2017 10:03 am : link
moving Pugh to RT when his strength is at Guard isn't some sort of panacea you think it is.

You supposedly shore up one position to make another weaker.

And that's assuming you even have a clue about what you're talking about.

Taking snippets of camp observations and assuming you know more than the coaching staff is the true folly in these discussions.

I know it goes against fandom to recognize this, but it sure would make discussions a lot more logical
RE: Suggesting..  
John from Atlanta : 8/3/2017 10:14 am : link
In comment 13548246 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
moving Pugh to RT when his strength is at Guard isn't some sort of panacea you think it is.

You supposedly shore up one position to make another weaker.

And that's assuming you even have a clue about what you're talking about.

Taking snippets of camp observations and assuming you know more than the coaching staff is the true folly in these discussions.

I know it goes against fandom to recognize this, but it sure would make discussions a lot more logical


Nobody is taking snippets from camp. This is so far, the continuation of a TREND, and that is what makes it alarming. Nor do any of us know the opinions of the coaching staff on this as we are not behind closed doors and only getting public consumption. I do highly doubt their sitting there saying, eh its just a few plays in training camp.

Would Pugh moving to LT weaken LG, you bet you. I believe LT is more important on a team that will need to pass to win and has the skill players to do so. I also believe whoever would win the lG position would be less bad than Flowers is at LT. So overall I think it would be a net gain.


I dont see you criticizing people excited about Hart's alleged improvement, or the amazing write ups about Apple.
You are taking a homeristic mindset here. I know thats a part of fandom but it would make discussions a lot more logical if you didn't.
This is bullshit..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/3/2017 10:26 am : link
[quote]I've gotten on many people for being overly optimistic, going back to one fool who said Kerry Collins was going to throw for 6000 yards and 60 TD's. Or the poster who said Pinkins was going to be a dominant player because he was disrupting the offense in practice.

Commentary isn't limited to poor reports - it is usually consistently focused on posts that make sweeping assumptions without really having a clue.

Like I said - I understand that's part of fandom, but not really a good side of it.
This is bullshit..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/3/2017 10:27 am : link
Quote:
I dont see you criticizing people excited about Hart's alleged improvement, or the amazing write ups about Apple.


I've gotten on many people for being overly optimistic, going back to one fool who said Kerry Collins was going to throw for 6000 yards and 60 TD's. Or the poster who said Pinkins was going to be a dominant player because he was disrupting the offense in practice.

Commentary isn't limited to poor reports - it is usually consistently focused on posts that make sweeping assumptions without really having a clue.

Like I said - I understand that's part of fandom, but not really a good side of it.
RE: This is bullshit..  
John from Atlanta : 8/3/2017 10:30 am : link
In comment 13548297 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:


Quote:


I dont see you criticizing people excited about Hart's alleged improvement, or the amazing write ups about Apple.



I've gotten on many people for being overly optimistic, going back to one fool who said Kerry Collins was going to throw for 6000 yards and 60 TD's. Or the poster who said Pinkins was going to be a dominant player because he was disrupting the offense in practice.

Commentary isn't limited to poor reports - it is usually consistently focused on posts that make sweeping assumptions without really having a clue.

Like I said - I understand that's part of fandom, but not really a good side of it.


Someone wrote Hart is going to lock down the right side right above mine, not sure why you chose to go after my far more logical take.

Well lets close down the site since nobody can have an opinion on anything. Flowers stunk last year and is showing the same signs. Not sure what else to conclude.

Agree to disagree, but interested to know what your take on Flowers is if you care to share it?
My take on Flowers..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/3/2017 10:38 am : link
is that he has struggled with technique but has a pro sized frame. He has a toughness you can't teach and seems to need to mature mentally form-wise. I assume that the staff is trying to work on his technique and that they will use camp to do that. Flowers already seems dedicated to getting in shape, so I allow leeway for him working on other areas before making sweeping assumptions.

For some reason, players growth or regression is often looked at here as being static. If a player has done poorly, he'll continue to and oftentimes, it is assumed the coaches don't realize this. Not allowing a guy who was drafted young time to improve and assuming he won't happens a lot here, and standing by that view as being right is equally idiotic.

I have no clue if Flowers will be productive, mediocre or poor going forward. Neither do you. The difference is - one of us actually recognizes what we don't know.
RE: My take on Flowers..  
John from Atlanta : 8/3/2017 10:51 am : link
In comment 13548313 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
is that he has struggled with technique but has a pro sized frame. He has a toughness you can't teach and seems to need to mature mentally form-wise. I assume that the staff is trying to work on his technique and that they will use camp to do that. Flowers already seems dedicated to getting in shape, so I allow leeway for him working on other areas before making sweeping assumptions.

For some reason, players growth or regression is often looked at here as being static. If a player has done poorly, he'll continue to and oftentimes, it is assumed the coaches don't realize this. Not allowing a guy who was drafted young time to improve and assuming he won't happens a lot here, and standing by that view as being right is equally idiotic.

I have no clue if Flowers will be productive, mediocre or poor going forward. Neither do you. The difference is - one of us actually recognizes what we don't know.


Nobody knows if Flowers will improve, you, I, Sy, or the coaches. NFL coaches are wrong all the time about players. Fans obviously as well.

Nor did I say he wouldn't improve. All I am saying, and you continue to evade it, is that this is a Superbowl roster and I would not risk said season on whether Flowers suddenly improves. Nor does moving him on the line or benching him altogether throw in the towel on him. Let improve in a place where he cant get Eli murdered.

Is there anything FLowers can do, other then getting hurt, now or during the season where you would make a switch? Lets say 5 weeks go by and he is playing like last year? Then would you switch him with Pugh? Or are you riding Flowers out this year come what may?

I'm not evading this statement..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/3/2017 11:07 am : link
Quote:
All I am saying, and you continue to evade it, is that this is a Superbowl roster and I would not risk said season on whether Flowers suddenly improves


It's pretty damn hard to respond to. Your suggestion is to put Pugh at Tackle. That alleviates the situation? Did it add to the Superbowl roster or simply shift a resource and apparently remove another resource?

It is overly dramatic say that Flowers is going to risk the season or that Pugh replacing him is going to eliminate that risk. Do I need to remind you that people really didn't like Pugh at Tackle, either?

Didn't the often-maligned Newhouse play on a SB team and get a ring? A team that got there on the strength of their offense?

Basically, given the roster we have, you either have Flowers at Tackle or an equally flawed player there and if you move Pugh, you just move that concern to a Guard position as well.

Agree 100% with this:  
PatersonPlank : 8/3/2017 11:11 am : link
"Basically, given the roster we have, you either have Flowers at Tackle or an equally flawed player there and if you move Pugh, you just move that concern to a Guard position as well."

You take a potentially all-pro G and an avg/weak LT, and create an avg LT and weak LG. The answer is to get Flowers improving, or find another LT.
RE: RE: RE: Flowers  
arcarsenal : 8/3/2017 11:22 am : link
In comment 13548232 WillVAB said:
Quote:
In comment 13548023 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


In comment 13548003 WillVAB said:


Quote:


I just don't see his technique getting any better. He is who is he is at this point. Don't understand why the Giants don't at least give him some reps at guard in the event he sucks as at tackle again.



The problem is that they simply don't have any better alternative to man LT. I think it's become pretty clear that Flowers would be better inside or at least on the right side - but Fluker seems to be off to a good start @ RG, and Pugh is pretty entrenched @ LG at this point.

We basically have two options - neither of which seem to be better alternatives. One would be flipping Pugh and Flowers - the other would be flipping Hart and Flowers. Flowers would probably be better suited @ RT, but Hart is finally starting to look comfortable there - I'm not sure I'd want to stunt that by putting him on the other side.

It is what it is. I think Flowers is going to get a lot of help from Ellison and I think that was something that was strongly considered when we signed him.



I'd flip Pugh and Flowers. Pugh was solid at LT and if Ellison is the savior for Flowers he'd help Pugh as well.

Everything I've seen from Flowers and read about him tells me he needs to be playing in a phone booth. He simply can't handle speed and dealing with guys in space.

Some guys are just better suited for certain spots. Diehl sucked at guard in his waning years but could still get it done at LT. Davis was a horrible LT for the Cards but was a damn good Guard for the Cowboys. The Giants need to explore that option to salvage something if the wheels fall off.

At this point Flowers is a below average LT with the potential to be an upper tier guard. If Pugh prices himself out in the off-season, it would be nice to know we have an equal or better player in Flowers.


It's still a risky proposition because Pugh hasn't played OT since 2014 and he's never played LT before in the NFL. There's no guarantee he's really much better than Flowers there. I think Pugh has better lateral movement and would probably have a better time not getting turned around but I think he'd struggle a lot with stronger DE's who have effective bull rush technique.

Another thing to consider is that Pugh has his eye on getting paid after this season. Telling a guy in a contract year that you want to move him out of his ideal spot on the OL to play the most challenging spot instead probably isn't going to sit too well. Yeah, we can say "big deal, you do what the coaches tell you" - but I'm just not sure that's a box we want to open right now.
RE: Agree 100% with this:  
Diver_Down : 8/3/2017 11:24 am : link
In comment 13548383 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
"Basically, given the roster we have, you either have Flowers at Tackle or an equally flawed player there and if you move Pugh, you just move that concern to a Guard position as well."

You take a potentially all-pro G and an avg/weak LT, and create an avg LT and weak LG. The answer is to get Flowers improving, or find another LT.


As a spectator of this dialog, I knew it was a matter of time before Pugh's "greatness" would be elevated. You can avoid the criticism by saying that you referenced "potentially". But let's be realistic. Pugh is not all-pro. He is not pro-bowl caliber. He isn't a 2nd or 3rd reserve pro-bowler. He has never been a consideration for any recognized accolades that differentiate a player from the rest of the chaff in the league. What he can own for a bullet point on his resume is that he is an oft-injured player that has only played 16 games a season his rookie season. Before carving up his bust in Canton, can we hold off and see if he can at least duplicate the herculean effort of playing 16 games?
RE: I'm not evading this statement..  
John from Atlanta : 8/3/2017 11:24 am : link
In comment 13548373 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:


Quote:


All I am saying, and you continue to evade it, is that this is a Superbowl roster and I would not risk said season on whether Flowers suddenly improves



It's pretty damn hard to respond to. Your suggestion is to put Pugh at Tackle. That alleviates the situation? Did it add to the Superbowl roster or simply shift a resource and apparently remove another resource?

It is overly dramatic say that Flowers is going to risk the season or that Pugh replacing him is going to eliminate that risk. Do I need to remind you that people really didn't like Pugh at Tackle, either?

Didn't the often-maligned Newhouse play on a SB team and get a ring? A team that got there on the strength of their offense?

Basically, given the roster we have, you either have Flowers at Tackle or an equally flawed player there and if you move Pugh, you just move that concern to a Guard position as well.


If you say Pugh is a bad solution I agree 1000%. But it if Flowers continues to play as the worst LT in football then I would rather have a subpar player(IE flowers) at LG and an average LT, then a good LG and putrid LT. I know of no other solution at the moment other then to hope Flowers improves significantly.

Newhouse, is 50000(arbitrary) times a better player than Flowers right now. SO I am not sure I agree with the comparison. Nor do the Giants have a mobile QB helping to cover up any issues as did Newhouse.

Generally, the O-line is what this season will hinge on. The Achilles heal of it is Flowers. If into the bye week he is playing like last year to not yank him would be insane. If him and Hart continue to play like last year its good night Irene.
.  
arcarsenal : 8/3/2017 11:26 am : link
Can we put the brakes on for a second here?

Quote:
If you say Pugh is a bad solution I agree 1000%. But it if Flowers continues to play as the worst LT in football then I would rather have a subpar player(IE flowers) at LG and an average LT, then a good LG and putrid LT. I know of no other solution at the moment other then to hope Flowers improves significantly.


Do you really think he's the worst LT in the sport?

Let me guess... PFF said he was.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Flowers  
John from Atlanta : 8/3/2017 11:28 am : link
In comment 13548399 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 13548232 WillVAB said:


Quote:


In comment 13548023 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


In comment 13548003 WillVAB said:


Quote:


I just don't see his technique getting any better. He is who is he is at this point. Don't understand why the Giants don't at least give him some reps at guard in the event he sucks as at tackle again.



The problem is that they simply don't have any better alternative to man LT. I think it's become pretty clear that Flowers would be better inside or at least on the right side - but Fluker seems to be off to a good start @ RG, and Pugh is pretty entrenched @ LG at this point.

We basically have two options - neither of which seem to be better alternatives. One would be flipping Pugh and Flowers - the other would be flipping Hart and Flowers. Flowers would probably be better suited @ RT, but Hart is finally starting to look comfortable there - I'm not sure I'd want to stunt that by putting him on the other side.

It is what it is. I think Flowers is going to get a lot of help from Ellison and I think that was something that was strongly considered when we signed him.



I'd flip Pugh and Flowers. Pugh was solid at LT and if Ellison is the savior for Flowers he'd help Pugh as well.

Everything I've seen from Flowers and read about him tells me he needs to be playing in a phone booth. He simply can't handle speed and dealing with guys in space.

Some guys are just better suited for certain spots. Diehl sucked at guard in his waning years but could still get it done at LT. Davis was a horrible LT for the Cards but was a damn good Guard for the Cowboys. The Giants need to explore that option to salvage something if the wheels fall off.

At this point Flowers is a below average LT with the potential to be an upper tier guard. If Pugh prices himself out in the off-season, it would be nice to know we have an equal or better player in Flowers.



It's still a risky proposition because Pugh hasn't played OT since 2014 and he's never played LT before in the NFL. There's no guarantee he's really much better than Flowers there. I think Pugh has better lateral movement and would probably have a better time not getting turned around but I think he'd struggle a lot with stronger DE's who have effective bull rush technique.

Another thing to consider is that Pugh has his eye on getting paid after this season. Telling a guy in a contract year that you want to move him out of his ideal spot on the OL to play the most challenging spot instead probably isn't going to sit too well. Yeah, we can say "big deal, you do what the coaches tell you" - but I'm just not sure that's a box we want to open right now.
I agree with everything you wrote. Pugh is a bad option. But in this case the only one. I cant fathom him being worst at this point than FLowers because Flowers was that bad last year. If Flowers god forbid gets hurt, I would think this is the way they would go.

RE: .  
John from Atlanta : 8/3/2017 11:31 am : link
In comment 13548405 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Can we put the brakes on for a second here?



Quote:


If you say Pugh is a bad solution I agree 1000%. But it if Flowers continues to play as the worst LT in football then I would rather have a subpar player(IE flowers) at LG and an average LT, then a good LG and putrid LT. I know of no other solution at the moment other then to hope Flowers improves significantly.



Do you really think he's the worst LT in the sport?

Let me guess... PFF said he was.
I have never read PFF. I think Flowers is in essence the worst starting LT in football at this moment based on the fact that he plays in a quick release offense and still was putrid and that if there are any other starting LTS as bad as him they are in essence the same. At the level of putrid, its splitting hairs that have already been split. IMO.
I don't know if Flowers is the worst, but he's been pretty poor  
Go Terps : 8/3/2017 11:32 am : link
I'm in the school of thought that Flowers would probably be better suited at right guard.

That said, now is not the time to shuffle the line around. The time to solve the left tackle issue was in March/April. Moving Pugh from his position of strength is not advisable...remember - we made the same mistake with Petitgout years ago. Petitgout was an excellent right tackle, but not nearly as good at left tackle. The whole line was worsened by moving him there.

I would have found a different option at left tackle this offseason, but that ship has sailed. Flowers is the guy.
I'm pretty sure..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/3/2017 11:33 am : link
if Flowers gets hurt, they will go out and sign a vet that had been cut rather than move Pugh.

They have no enthusiasm for moving a guy who has played well at Guard to Tackle, and if Flowers is the WORST tackle in the league, surely some bum off the street can be too.
RE: I'm pretty sure..  
John from Atlanta : 8/3/2017 11:45 am : link
In comment 13548424 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
if Flowers gets hurt, they will go out and sign a vet that had been cut rather than move Pugh.

They have no enthusiasm for moving a guy who has played well at Guard to Tackle, and if Flowers is the WORST tackle in the league, surely some bum off the street can be too.
Some plan b there. A TBD. No suprise, you agree with the front office.
What..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/3/2017 11:51 am : link
the fuck do you think every team's plan B is if they have a weakness, especially at a premium position that doesn't exactly have hundreds of people capable of manning?

Are you that oblivious to the way rosters are constructed and the depth of certain positions?

That isn't blindly trusting the FO. It is a combination of understanding roster construction and factoring in a fan trying to be an armchair GM and coach who is using putting faith in the FO as an insult.

I guess the flip side is not having faith in the FO and expecting that to somehow lead to a better result?

LOL.
.  
arcarsenal : 8/3/2017 11:58 am : link
It would be wonderful if another Sean Locklear or Shawn Andrews fell into our laps but unfortunately, the odds are slim and we're probably just going to have to make due with what we have.

I would be pissed if I felt like there was an obvious solution available and Reese balked, but the truth is that the pickings are extremely slim and a lot of the guys that people wanted us to sign (i.e.. Clady) didn't pan out for the teams they signed with anyway.
RE: RE: Not to minimize Flowers' struggles...  
Klaatu : 8/3/2017 12:22 pm : link
In comment 13548201 BigBlueinChicago said:
Quote:
In comment 13547696 Klaatu said:


Quote:


But there are some things the Giants can do personnel-wise, scheme-wise, to give him some help in pass-protection. One of the reasons I liked the Ellison signing (even though there were other UFA TEs I liked a bit more) was that he spent his last year in Minnesota virtually joined at T.J. Clemmings' hip, giving the struggling LT as much help as he could. Sure, it would be great if Flowers...ahem...blossomed, but if the Giants have to work around him, I think they'll be able to, especially if they can lock down the right side of the O-Line.




You do realize that the Giants would not be able to put their optimal offensive unit on the field if they have to assign a second player help Flowers because he can't do the one-on-one assignment himself, correct? And that's assuming that Flowers won't improve, however marginally, which is not etched in stone.

If the Giants are forced to only be able to send 4 guys into a route instead of 5 out of necessity, the defense has an advantage.

Unless the rules changed since February, they will not be able to put 12 guys on the field to pull this off.


You do realize that parking Ellison next to Flowers would not be on a permanent basis, correct? You do realize that parking anyone else next to Flowers would not be on a permanent basis, either, correct? You do realize that there are a myriad of other things the Giants can do to make up, in part, for Flowers' deficiencies that don't involve putting twelve men on the field, correct?

I expect the Giant offense to be much more diverse this year than what it was last year, and if McAdoo and Sullivan are worth their salt, they'll be able to recognize where their weakest links are and scheme around them. Tight Ends who can actually block (or get open quickly, recognize the hot reads), a bona fide Fullback, better blocking on the perimeter from their Wide Receivers, Running Backs who can hit the hole quicker without dancing around, and so forth.

Just as defenses adjust to maximize their strengths and minimize their weaknesses (it's amazing how much better a secondary looks with a fierce pass-rush in front of it), so too does an offense have to adjust for precisely the same reason.
.  
arcarsenal : 8/3/2017 12:28 pm : link
Does Mr. Stapleton read BBI?

He just dropped a Sean Locklear reference a few minutes ago. I wonder if he read my post. :)
RE: .  
Klaatu : 8/3/2017 12:33 pm : link
In comment 13548521 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Does Mr. Stapleton read BBI?

He just dropped a Sean Locklear reference a few minutes ago. I wonder if he read my post. :)


Stapleton does read BBI, but he doesn't take you seriously.
RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 8/3/2017 12:55 pm : link
In comment 13548531 Klaatu said:
Quote:
In comment 13548521 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


Does Mr. Stapleton read BBI?

He just dropped a Sean Locklear reference a few minutes ago. I wonder if he read my post. :)



Stapleton does read BBI, but he doesn't take you seriously.


Well, that's not very nice.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Flowers  
WillVAB : 8/3/2017 1:41 pm : link
In comment 13548399 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 13548232 WillVAB said:


Quote:


In comment 13548023 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


In comment 13548003 WillVAB said:


Quote:


I just don't see his technique getting any better. He is who is he is at this point. Don't understand why the Giants don't at least give him some reps at guard in the event he sucks as at tackle again.



The problem is that they simply don't have any better alternative to man LT. I think it's become pretty clear that Flowers would be better inside or at least on the right side - but Fluker seems to be off to a good start @ RG, and Pugh is pretty entrenched @ LG at this point.

We basically have two options - neither of which seem to be better alternatives. One would be flipping Pugh and Flowers - the other would be flipping Hart and Flowers. Flowers would probably be better suited @ RT, but Hart is finally starting to look comfortable there - I'm not sure I'd want to stunt that by putting him on the other side.

It is what it is. I think Flowers is going to get a lot of help from Ellison and I think that was something that was strongly considered when we signed him.



I'd flip Pugh and Flowers. Pugh was solid at LT and if Ellison is the savior for Flowers he'd help Pugh as well.

Everything I've seen from Flowers and read about him tells me he needs to be playing in a phone booth. He simply can't handle speed and dealing with guys in space.

Some guys are just better suited for certain spots. Diehl sucked at guard in his waning years but could still get it done at LT. Davis was a horrible LT for the Cards but was a damn good Guard for the Cowboys. The Giants need to explore that option to salvage something if the wheels fall off.

At this point Flowers is a below average LT with the potential to be an upper tier guard. If Pugh prices himself out in the off-season, it would be nice to know we have an equal or better player in Flowers.



It's still a risky proposition because Pugh hasn't played OT since 2014 and he's never played LT before in the NFL. There's no guarantee he's really much better than Flowers there. I think Pugh has better lateral movement and would probably have a better time not getting turned around but I think he'd struggle a lot with stronger DE's who have effective bull rush technique.

Another thing to consider is that Pugh has his eye on getting paid after this season. Telling a guy in a contract year that you want to move him out of his ideal spot on the OL to play the most challenging spot instead probably isn't going to sit too well. Yeah, we can say "big deal, you do what the coaches tell you" - but I'm just not sure that's a box we want to open right now.


Pugh is exponentially better from a technical perspective than Flowers. He's not the athlete Flowers is but he doesn't need to be to do a better job at LT. Regarding the contract point, I don't see how it hurts Pugh. If anything it adds some value bc you're getting a guy who can spot start at LT if needed.

People assume flipping them would slightly upgrade LT and significantly downgrade LG. We don't don't know that until Flowers gets reps at Guard and we see what he's got. It could be an upgrade at LT and an upgrade at LG.

Flowers technique is horrible at LT and it's going to be difficult to change. Fans need to start accepting that now. He's played the same way for for 10+ years. This isn't something simple like changing the way a RB carries a football. We're talking foot work, hand placement, etc.
.  
arcarsenal : 8/3/2017 2:08 pm : link
But it's all projection.

Pugh has never played LT in the NFL. We have no idea if he'd truly be a sizeable upgrade or if the switch would be a net positive.

From a contract perspective, it could absolutely hurt him if he plays poorly there. OG's are rapidly closing gap on OT's salary-wise last I checked, so Pugh wouldn't have much motivation to move from a place where he's comfortable and performing to a much more difficult spot where he has no NFL experience.

I can't tell you for sure, but I don't think it's a move he'd want to make. Especially not now.

For better or worse, Flowers is the LT. It's going to take a truly terrible camp/pre-season for the staff to seriously consider the types of swaps being proposed.
RE: .  
Jay on the Island : 8/3/2017 2:21 pm : link
In comment 13548636 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
But it's all projection.

Pugh has never played LT in the NFL. We have no idea if he'd truly be a sizeable upgrade or if the switch would be a net positive.

From a contract perspective, it could absolutely hurt him if he plays poorly there. OG's are rapidly closing gap on OT's salary-wise last I checked, so Pugh wouldn't have much motivation to move from a place where he's comfortable and performing to a much more difficult spot where he has no NFL experience.

I can't tell you for sure, but I don't think it's a move he'd want to make. Especially not now.

For better or worse, Flowers is the LT. It's going to take a truly terrible camp/pre-season for the staff to seriously consider the types of swaps being proposed.

I am not disagreeing with you just pointing out that Pugh did play LT in the NFL two seasons ago when Flowers was injured.
RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 8/3/2017 2:26 pm : link
In comment 13548649 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
In comment 13548636 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


But it's all projection.

Pugh has never played LT in the NFL. We have no idea if he'd truly be a sizeable upgrade or if the switch would be a net positive.

From a contract perspective, it could absolutely hurt him if he plays poorly there. OG's are rapidly closing gap on OT's salary-wise last I checked, so Pugh wouldn't have much motivation to move from a place where he's comfortable and performing to a much more difficult spot where he has no NFL experience.

I can't tell you for sure, but I don't think it's a move he'd want to make. Especially not now.

For better or worse, Flowers is the LT. It's going to take a truly terrible camp/pre-season for the staff to seriously consider the types of swaps being proposed.


I am not disagreeing with you just pointing out that Pugh did play LT in the NFL two seasons ago when Flowers was injured.


My mistake - it was only 1 game though, wasn't it?

Not exactly a large sample size.
RE: RE: RE: .  
Jay on the Island : 8/3/2017 2:56 pm : link
In comment 13548661 arcarsenal said:
Quote:



My mistake - it was only 1 game though, wasn't it?

Not exactly a large sample size.

I believe it was a game and a half but you're right it is too small of a sample size to determine if he is a better fit. Regardless Flowers hasn't played guard before so the thought that he can just kick inside and play at a high level is absurd.
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