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8/2 Training Camp Observations

Sy'56 : 8/2/2017 3:55 pm
First off, apologies we didn’t have time to do an interview today. I had to jet out of there at 12:40 today. We were there for the majority of practice, when they moved the team inside the facility we opted to leave, as the meat of the action was over.

Saw Mike Nugent get the kicks today, don’t read in to depth chart stuff there. These guys aren’t going to kick a lot of volume at this point, they may even flip flop each day. This will be a battle that goes to the end. Rosas’ leg is stronger.

OFFENSE NOTES

-Was looking at the OL as much as possible today. When it comes to the first strong, Ereck Flowers still struggles with his pad level. Defenders are constantly getting underneath him, causing him to lean over and bend at the waist, making his hand placement sub-par. More of the same there but he did have a couple of run blocks where his natural power and strength were on full display. That’s one thing he always has, strong punches and ability to anchor. Right guard anyone? OG Justin Pugh got in to a couple fights today. He looks to be the enforcer of this offense, he doesn’t want any of his guy taking extra hits and showed no hesitation in defending them when they did.

-I wanted to get more looks at UDFAs Jessamen Dunker. Early in practice, Dunker impressed me with both straight line and lateral movement. Definitely a plus athlete that can be where he needs to be at the right time. But body wise, he is a year away. He will be one of my practice squad predictions but he did get hurt today, we’ll see there. OT Jarron Jones is at the very beginning of a very long road when it comes to his OT progression. He won’t be a factor on the field this season, not even close. Expectedly so, he looks 2-3 steps behind every time he is out there in live action. My question is, will they use a practice squad spot on him? He will have to show a consistent work ethic and approach if he has any shot.

-Was rough to see WR Shepard go down. I saw the whole process and at first I thought it was an Achilles, he was visibly upset and in pain. A sprained ankle can linger for months and in some cases can be worse than a fracture. Now it’s a waiting and hoping game.

-Who is going to step up in his place? Tavarres King was with the first three WR set. He is the best short area mover of the rest. Quality route runner, can be slippery after the catch. Roger Lewis may have more raw talent but he’s still towards the beginning of his WR maturation process. I see the team trying to get more and more looks at Darius Powe. Physical pass catcher with some ability after the catch. They like the dependability of Dwayne Harris. Could this open a door for the fastest guy on the team, Kevin Snead?

-TEs Matt LaCosse and Jerell Adams caught passes on the all-out move today, a welcoming sign for a team that didn’t get enough from that position in 2016. Hard ti ignore the every down upside of Adams.

DEFENSE NOTES

-This LB core looks angry. All of them. While the group fights may be a little over the top and the coaches supposedly don’t like them, part of me likes the fact these LBs are starting them. They are hitting a little too hard but they are doing it on purpose. It’s a personality trait to a defense that you want. Goodson, Kennard, and Casillas especially were instigating. This defense is VERY physical.

-Still a little confused how this team plans on using LB Stansly Maponga. He is very strong and stout. But I don’t see him performing well in space and he can’t play DE in this scheme. I think he is a 3-4 OLB-only type but maybe NYG has a role for that kind of guy more than we think.

-DT Dalvin Tomlinson got some snaps against first time linemen. He has great short area burst and closing speed. I think there is some more pass rush potential here than I initially thought. On the flip side, he got handled by DJ Fluker a couple times on running plays.

-S Eric Pinkins is interesting to me. There is a lot of talk about backup safeties and I have to think this hybrid S/LB, plus athlete is in the mix. He is a superb athlete with good size. Physical kid and he was performing very well in special team drills.

-I haven’t seen much out of DT Corbin Bryant and with the DL being pretty crowded depth wise, he will need to stand out over the next few days if he is going to make this team.

3 STANDOUTS

-OT Bobby Hart – For the second day in a row, I walked away with a positive impression on Hart. He looks more confident and quick-minded out there. Reacting more so than thinking his way through things. He wins almost all of his physical one on one battles, and his pass protection techniques look like they’ve been cleaned up.

-DE Romeo Okwara – On a team full of physical specimens, Okwara takes the cake. He is by far the most impressive athlete on this team. He is still a little raw and too straight line dependent when it comes to movement, but the tools are there and if NYG is patient, I think he is going to be a good one. Pad level, post-engagement moves, and consistent leverage are things he needs work on but in time, they ae very correctable. I am really excited about him.

-OG DJ Fluker – Really food day for this big man. And I mean BIG. He swallows defenders, even makes DT Harrison look small. I’ll say this about Fluker, if he gets his hands on the man he needs to run block, it’s over. He won every battle I watched him on. I think RG is the perfect home for him.

See ya tomorrow!

August 2 Video
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Two days in a row with positives for Bobby Hart.  
Klaatu : 8/2/2017 4:00 pm : link
That's really something. Wish to God it was the same with Flowers, but at least his run-blocking seems to impress you, and I guess that's something, too.
Sy, I'm pretty excited about Okwara, too.  
Klaatu : 8/2/2017 4:05 pm : link
Let's not forget that he's still only 22, and last year he came a very long way in an equally short time. I think he's the very definition of "ascending player."
Thank You Sy'56  
est1986 : 8/2/2017 4:05 pm : link
Always appreciate your draft insight, now training camp too! Awesome! Thanks again!
Excited to see if Fluker's light goes on at season's start.  
Big Blue '56 : 8/2/2017 4:06 pm : link
Thanks Sy
How has other UDFA OT Wheeler look  
superspynyg : 8/2/2017 4:06 pm : link
Does he have a chance at the 53?
Wow, really?  
est1986 : 8/2/2017 4:07 pm : link
Quote:
On a team full of physical specimens, Okwara takes the cake. He is by far the most impressive athlete on this team.

Sounds more and more like Flowers is a Guard  
xman : 8/2/2017 4:08 pm : link
Back in the 90's Giants drafted Willam Roberts in the first round as a Tackle where he struggled. Eventually moved him to Guard where he found a home
Foot injury for Dunker, which could mean a lot of things.  
Klaatu : 8/2/2017 4:10 pm : link
I figured him for the PS...figured he'd need a year in an NFL S & C program. My hope is that they can make an LG out of him. Call it Pugh Insurance.
Between Jerry, Flowers and Fluker  
Chris684 : 8/2/2017 4:15 pm : link
it's good to know we're set at RG lol.

Anyone for LT?

I'm j/k, I'm actually a huge Flowers fan. A few of these reports in a row citing his continued lack of fundamentals is not what I wanted to read but I hold out hope that it is still early and this still not even pre-season game action yet.

Great news about Hart and Okwara. It would be nice to have RT and the very important 3rd/rotational DE roles locked up by young, ascending players.
Not to minimize Flowers' struggles...  
Klaatu : 8/2/2017 4:25 pm : link
But there are some things the Giants can do personnel-wise, scheme-wise, to give him some help in pass-protection. One of the reasons I liked the Ellison signing (even though there were other UFA TEs I liked a bit more) was that he spent his last year in Minnesota virtually joined at T.J. Clemmings' hip, giving the struggling LT as much help as he could. Sure, it would be great if Flowers...ahem...blossomed, but if the Giants have to work around him, I think they'll be able to, especially if they can lock down the right side of the O-Line.
RE: Okwara  
Trainmaster : 8/2/2017 4:30 pm : link
"He is by far the most impressive athlete on this team. "

That is a very strong statement on a team with Odell Beckham. Of course very different size / skill sets between Okwara and Beckham.

Your draft and camp reports are wonderful. BBI is very lucky to have you as a contibutor.
RE: Sounds more and more like Flowers is a Guard  
Beer Man : 8/2/2017 4:35 pm : link
In comment 13547668 xman said:
Quote:
Back in the 90's Giants drafted Willam Roberts in the first round as a Tackle where he struggled. Eventually moved him to Guard where he found a home
They did something similar with Eric Moore back in the 80's. He was drafted by the Giants ahead of Jumbo Elliot to play LT. He didn't cut it at LT, but Jumbo did. So they put him in at RG, Jumbo at LT, where both started and played the year the team beat the Bills in the SB.
I am very excited about the right side of the OL  
Jay on the Island : 8/2/2017 4:44 pm : link
I still hope that Fluker can beat out Jerry at RG. If Hart can continue to play well and become a solid RT this line could be very good. I am concerned that Flowers is still making the same mistakes that he has for the past two years. If he doesn't develop at LT it sounds like he would make an excellent RG which could be his position next year.
RE: Sounds more and more like Flowers is a Guard  
Beer Man : 8/2/2017 4:46 pm : link
In comment 13547668 xman said:
Quote:
Back in the 90's Giants drafted Willam Roberts in the first round as a Tackle where he struggled. Eventually moved him to Guard where he found a home
Roberts was actually drafted in 84 and played on both the 86 & 90 SB teams. Who can forget this celebration on the sidelines

we can't  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 8/2/2017 4:49 pm : link
move Flowers to guard. We don't have a left tackle unless you move Pugh there.
RE: we can't  
Beer Man : 8/2/2017 4:51 pm : link
In comment 13547747 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
move Flowers to guard. We don't have a left tackle unless you move Pugh there.
I think they were making the case for next year; particularly if Pugh can't be re-signed.
RE: we can't  
Jay on the Island : 8/2/2017 4:54 pm : link
In comment 13547747 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
move Flowers to guard. We don't have a left tackle unless you move Pugh there.

I wasn't suggesting doing it this season. If Flowers doesn't improve then the Giants need to find another LT. The Giants will have the year to see if either Wheeler or Bisnowaty are the answer there. If they aren't they will have to bring in another LT either through the draft or FA.
Great  
Thinblueline : 8/2/2017 4:56 pm : link
Report, I really appreciate your observations and posting of them... Are you a coach or just a opinionated fan?
We might not have LT  
xman : 8/2/2017 4:56 pm : link
anyway . Flowers is pretending to fill that LT slot
I think a strong running game could work wonders to  
Beer Man : 8/2/2017 5:00 pm : link
help Flowers. It won't make him a better pass blocker but it will allow him to wear down the DE or DT in front of him. Hopefully, Fluker is the missing piece for getting the running game moving.
That's 4 consecutive practice reports now  
The_Boss : 8/2/2017 5:06 pm : link
(2 by Traina and 2 by Sy) that tell us of the continued struggles of Flowers. This is his 3rd professional training camp and his technique continues to blow ass? Bust....
RE: Great  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 8/2/2017 5:15 pm : link
In comment 13547757 Thinblueline said:
Quote:
Report, I really appreciate your observations and posting of them... Are you a coach or just a opinionated fan?


SY’56 has been scouting players since 2006 and has developed his own grading system. His work has landed him a position with Ourlads.com. He spends 20-25 hours per week on scouting players throughout the year.
RE: RE: Great  
Klaatu : 8/2/2017 5:22 pm : link
In comment 13547783 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 13547757 Thinblueline said:


Quote:


Report, I really appreciate your observations and posting of them... Are you a coach or just a opinionated fan?



SY’56 has been scouting players since 2006 and has developed his own grading system. His work has landed him a position with Ourlads.com. He spends 20-25 hours per week on scouting players throughout the year.


If you go to the Team Building section of the website, you can find Sy's pre-draft scouting reports in The Draft. They're definitely worth reading.
I'm curious why Flowers would be better at RG and not LG  
ZGiants98 : 8/2/2017 5:23 pm : link
Wouldn't his instincts and familiarity be on the left side. The reason I ask, is because if things start to go south this year I actually see Pugh as the backup LT. I could see them flipping. Somebody like Bisnowaty or Wheeler would not be able to fill in year one at an acceptable level IMO.
Romeo Okwara is more important to the defense than most people know  
Jay on the Island : 8/2/2017 5:26 pm : link
If he can play anywhere near the level of his first career start then this defense can be special. The last two SB championship teams featured 3 good pass rushing DE's. This team currently has two in JPP and Vernon. Okwara, Moss, Taylor, Wynn and Odighizuwa are fighting for that 3rd spot and whoever wins could see a lot of playing time. There have been a few training camp and preseason unknown DE's who looked like potential players only to disappear in the regular season (Trattou, Tracy, Ojomo, etc) but hopefully Okwara is not another one. I am more confident in this kid for some reason. I don't think he is going to be a star but I feel Okwara could end up developing into a starting DE who is solid versus the run and can register 7-8 sacks per season.
RE: I'm curious why Flowers would be better at RG and not LG  
Jay on the Island : 8/2/2017 5:28 pm : link
In comment 13547793 ZGiants98 said:
Quote:
Wouldn't his instincts and familiarity be on the left side. The reason I ask, is because if things start to go south this year I actually see Pugh as the backup LT. I could see them flipping. Somebody like Bisnowaty or Wheeler would not be able to fill in year one at an acceptable level IMO.

The LG position usually requires a quicker player who is good at pulling.
RE: Romeo Okwara is more important to the defense than most people know  
adamg : 8/2/2017 5:32 pm : link
In comment 13547799 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
If he can play anywhere near the level of his first career start then this defense can be special. The last two SB championship teams featured 3 good pass rushing DE's. This team currently has two in JPP and Vernon. Okwara, Moss, Taylor, Wynn and Odighizuwa are fighting for that 3rd spot and whoever wins could see a lot of playing time. There have been a few training camp and preseason unknown DE's who looked like potential players only to disappear in the regular season (Trattou, Tracy, Ojomo, etc) but hopefully Okwara is not another one. I am more confident in this kid for some reason. I don't think he is going to be a star but I feel Okwara could end up developing into a starting DE who is solid versus the run and can register 7-8 sacks per season.


I agree. I also expect if McAdoo has any say (and perhaps Spags recognizes this himself), the third and fourth DEs are going to be featured a lot more than they were last year, in light of JPP's injury and the fact that he and OV were the league leaders in snap % among DL generally.

I'm excited to see what Devin Taylor looks like when he finally gets in the ring. He's among the biggest guys on the team. If he and Okwara can both come in in passing situations, pushing both JPP and OV to the inside, we may have a new aces package that can get at the QB (and potentially adding Kennard and Moss in the mix there as well).
Would also love to have three huge DEs  
adamg : 8/2/2017 5:34 pm : link
JPP, Taylor, and Okwara putting their hands up during those third down passing plays. A half dozen tree trunks for QBs to try throwing through...
Ha ha, "Really food day for this big man"  
PatersonPlank : 8/2/2017 5:52 pm : link
Subliminal mistake regarding Fluker? I hope you meant good, and not that he was still eating.
PP  
manh george : 8/2/2017 6:45 pm : link
Meant that Fluker takes the cake.
RE: PP  
Klaatu : 8/2/2017 6:49 pm : link
In comment 13547857 manh george said:
Quote:
Meant that Fluker takes the cake.


I'd hate to try and take the cake away from him.

RE: we can't  
Tuckrule : 8/2/2017 7:13 pm : link
In comment 13547747 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
move Flowers to guard. We don't have a left tackle unless you move Pugh there.


Wouldn't move Pugh there because if e has a good year he's going to want left tackle money. Would move him there after this year and sign him to guard money
Not sure if you've been following some of the deals  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/2/2017 7:22 pm : link
that guards have been getting this offseason, but guard money has rapidly closed the gap with left tackle money.

What if FLUKER has finally blossomed?  
SGMen : 8/2/2017 7:56 pm : link
He was a first round pick, physical beast. I'm hoping the bell goes off and he is GOOD enough to beat out Jerry and have a huge season.
Good that at least B. Hart looks better and ready. If he can hold his own that would be HUGE; especially IF E. Flowers continues to struggle this year in pass protection.
You can protect one guy but two is very hard.
RE: Not to minimize Flowers' struggles...  
annexOPR : 8/2/2017 7:59 pm : link
In comment 13547696 Klaatu said:
Quote:
But there are some things the Giants can do personnel-wise, scheme-wise, to give him some help in pass-protection. One of the reasons I liked the Ellison signing (even though there were other UFA TEs I liked a bit more) was that he spent his last year in Minnesota virtually joined at T.J. Clemmings' hip, giving the struggling LT as much help as he could. Sure, it would be great if Flowers...ahem...blossomed, but if the Giants have to work around him, I think they'll be able to, especially if they can lock down the right side of the O-Line.


I'm expecting to see quite a bit of Ellison-Flowers this season.

Flowers is not looking like NFL LT material ... Ellison will help, but I'd love to see Flowers slide in at RG and just maul people. I know LT's don't grow on trees - hopefully this year's draft class is better
Nice to hear about the LB Unit.  
Motley Two : 8/2/2017 8:34 pm : link
With the way the Giants defense is built and the approach to how it's built and not as much emphasis on the position, a nasty attitude is a good way to make a name for themselves.

Most of the money/skill is in front of them and behind them. Giants have a D-Line that can set up the secondary and a secondary that can set up the D-line in return. The LB's should be excited to fly around punish guys when they get their shots.
RE: RE: Not to minimize Flowers' struggles...  
Klaatu : 8/2/2017 8:44 pm : link
In comment 13547925 annexOPR said:
Quote:
In comment 13547696 Klaatu said:


Quote:


But there are some things the Giants can do personnel-wise, scheme-wise, to give him some help in pass-protection. One of the reasons I liked the Ellison signing (even though there were other UFA TEs I liked a bit more) was that he spent his last year in Minnesota virtually joined at T.J. Clemmings' hip, giving the struggling LT as much help as he could. Sure, it would be great if Flowers...ahem...blossomed, but if the Giants have to work around him, I think they'll be able to, especially if they can lock down the right side of the O-Line.



I'm expecting to see quite a bit of Ellison-Flowers this season.

Flowers is not looking like NFL LT material ... Ellison will help, but I'd love to see Flowers slide in at RG and just maul people. I know LT's don't grow on trees - hopefully this year's draft class is better


Honestly, outside of McGlinchey from Notre Dame I don't have a clue about the OTs in 2018. Sy's probably already clued in...Colin at GBN, too.
Good to hear about  
Bluesbreaker : 8/2/2017 8:47 pm : link
Fluker & Hart but not so much Flowers makes you wonder
if he struggles in pre-season would they make a move
to get a LT I know it won't be cheap but maybe a team
rebuliding or whatever . Maybe Ellison will just have
to help out when he does struggle lets hope its not
every game .
Mentioning Okwara hope that he builds on last year would
be nice to get an 8-10 sack season out of him . I am curious to see what Devin Taylor can do as well if both
do well in the pass rush then we should be in great shape .
Sucks about Shepperd hopefully he is not out too long
but I feel we have some depth in the passing game now
that it won't hurt too awful much .
Good to read about Hart...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 8/2/2017 8:55 pm : link
Discouraging to read about Flowers. It's still incredibly early in camp though so I'll hang onto that.
Sy, ultimate compliment from me ...  
baadbill : 8/2/2017 8:58 pm : link
I've been an avid Giants fan since the 1960s... before the internet, the first thing I did, 365 days a year, was get the morning paper and immediately turn to the sports page to see if there was a Giants article.

This pre-season I've found I'm really only interested in reading your reports. Thank you so much for the dependable and very reliable reporting. I find it incredibly valuable as a Giants fan.
RE: Good to read about Hart...  
The_Boss : 8/2/2017 9:03 pm : link
In comment 13547976 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
Discouraging to read about Flowers. It's still incredibly early in camp though so I'll hang onto that.


It's early but in the link below and on the MSG camp show tonight, it looks like the same Ereck Flowers from 2015 and 2016. That's f'ing scary.
Link - ( New Window )
My dark horse pick for biggest surprise ... Jerell Adams  
baadbill : 8/2/2017 9:05 pm : link
Engram is obviously going to be involved in the passing game, but I suspect we may not see him playing many traditional TE roles - it's just too problematic to platoon players based upon run versus pass without signaling the defense. Adams could turn out to be THE player with all the tools to be the Giants every down TE as 2017 progresses.
What time does training camp usually wrap up  
ron mexico : 8/2/2017 9:17 pm : link
including the autograph session?
Flowers  
WillVAB : 8/2/2017 9:33 pm : link
I just don't see his technique getting any better. He is who is he is at this point. Don't understand why the Giants don't at least give him some reps at guard in the event he sucks as at tackle again.
Sy'56  
Marty866b : 8/2/2017 10:00 pm : link
Great stuff! BBI is a great website and you just make it better.
Besides Flowers,my biggest concern about this year's team is the ability or inability to run the ball. We have a questionable offensive line with I guess what would be called unproven runners. What do you forsee out of the running game?
RE: Sy'56  
Sy'56 : 8/2/2017 10:14 pm : link
In comment 13548016 Marty866b said:
Quote:
Great stuff! BBI is a great website and you just make it better.
Besides Flowers,my biggest concern about this year's team is the ability or inability to run the ball. We have a questionable offensive line with I guess what would be called unproven runners. What do you forsee out of the running game?


The running game, even moreso than the passing game, lives and dies on the OL. I would day NYG is 50/50 on strong/weak in that department. Good enough to be effective but a very limited ceiling.

I do think Perkins is the most talented RB NYG has had in a very long time. Very good running style, low to the ground, let quickness, balance, vision. It's all there. I think it will be "good enough" but not gamebreakinig at all
Thanks Sy  
Marty866b : 8/2/2017 10:33 pm : link
I hope you are correct about "good enough".
RE: Flowers  
arcarsenal : 8/2/2017 10:40 pm : link
In comment 13548003 WillVAB said:
Quote:
I just don't see his technique getting any better. He is who is he is at this point. Don't understand why the Giants don't at least give him some reps at guard in the event he sucks as at tackle again.


The problem is that they simply don't have any better alternative to man LT. I think it's become pretty clear that Flowers would be better inside or at least on the right side - but Fluker seems to be off to a good start @ RG, and Pugh is pretty entrenched @ LG at this point.

We basically have two options - neither of which seem to be better alternatives. One would be flipping Pugh and Flowers - the other would be flipping Hart and Flowers. Flowers would probably be better suited @ RT, but Hart is finally starting to look comfortable there - I'm not sure I'd want to stunt that by putting him on the other side.

It is what it is. I think Flowers is going to get a lot of help from Ellison and I think that was something that was strongly considered when we signed him.
That video The_Boss posted is depressing  
Overseer : 8/2/2017 10:46 pm : link
Vernon hardly even does anything and blows by a head-down Flowers.

Giants have had some good drafts lately and killer FA pickups, but that Flowers pick - one reasonably expects a top 10 Oline pick to pay at least some dividends - has really left a gaping whole on the offense.

Rhett Ellison is going to be a very important player for NY in 2017. By 2018 EF likely will not be the Giants' LT anymore.

Maybe, hopefully, I'm wrong and he improves but that clip is damning cause it's the same glaring weakness we saw his first couple seasons.

Sy,  
big_blue : 8/2/2017 10:49 pm : link
I've seen the videos of OV beating him today - were there any examples of him stoning OV or other DE's in pass protection today? - OV is going to make a lot of people look that way. Is it possible that we are seeing a small sample size of the suck? Or does he look like this on every snap?
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