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Head Coach Thought

jintman : 8/4/2017 11:57 am
Three Head Coaches whom the Giants should have had, but they screwed it up and got none of them. Which one do you think hurt the most??????
Vince Lombardi, Tom Landry, Bill Belichick.
Little Bill  
Bold Ruler : Mod : 8/4/2017 12:02 pm : link
They botched that so bad its beyond belief. The story pains me to even think about.
Lombardi  
old man : 8/4/2017 12:17 pm : link
I don't think the 17 drought years would have happened even if he was only here to 1968 or so, before he got sick.
And I do think they would have won at least 1 of those 3 Championship appearances before the '64 disaster.Jim Lee Howell, blah.
But then again, we likely would not have BP either, and who knows what would have happened with Lil Bill(coaching Navy like dad?).
bold  
Dave : 8/4/2017 12:18 pm : link
they didn't botch that, tuna did
didn't parcells  
Dave : 8/4/2017 12:21 pm : link
leave too late for nyg to promote lil bill, leaving us stuck with 'he who shall not be named'?
Guys, George Young was never going to hire Little Bill.  
Optimus-NY : 8/4/2017 12:36 pm : link
GY said BB lacked people skills.
RE: didn't parcells  
BillT : 8/4/2017 12:36 pm : link
In comment 13549721 Dave said:
Quote:
leave too late for nyg to promote lil bill, leaving us stuck with 'he who shall not be named'?

Was lil Bill gone by the time Parcells left? I can't remember.
There was a 4th coaching decision  
pjcas18 : 8/4/2017 12:44 pm : link
that was handled poorly and it was the chance to bring back Parcells, when they wouldn't wait until he decided and they'd already offered the job to Fassel, once Parcells finally accepted the job (according to lore).

Now you can't really say that was botched too badly because Fassel did get the Giants to a SB, but I always wonder if Parcells 2.0 would have been the return of Little Bill 2.0 as well and eventually the proper succession, since little bill did wind up joining big bill with the Jets once the Giants hired Fassel.

RE: RE: didn't parcells  
Mcphedge : 8/4/2017 12:49 pm : link
In comment 13549739 BillT said:
Quote:
In comment 13549721 Dave said:


Quote:


leave too late for nyg to promote lil bill, leaving us stuck with 'he who shall not be named'?

'lil Bill was hired by the Browns 2-3 months before Parcells retired
Was lil Bill gone by the time Parcells left? I can't remember.
RE: RE: RE: didn't parcells  
Mcphedge : 8/4/2017 12:50 pm : link
In comment 13549751 Mcphedge said:
Quote:
In comment 13549739 BillT said:


Quote:


In comment 13549721 Dave said:


Quote:


leave too late for nyg to promote lil bill, leaving us stuck with 'he who shall not be named'?


Was lil Bill gone by the time Parcells left? I can't remember.


'lil Bill was hired by the Browns 2-3 months before Parcells retired
Lombardi  
Big Blue '56 : 8/4/2017 1:04 pm : link
.
.  
Danny Kanell : 8/4/2017 1:13 pm : link
I'm pretty happy with the way the fortunes of the Giants worked out in the past 15-20 years. So as much as I believe Belichick is the best coach of our generation, it doesn't hurt because who knows how much better (if at all) it would have worked out. 3 SB appearances. 2 titles. Eli Manning... because we shit the bed in 2003, etc. The list goes on. I'm sure for the old timers, they'll lean towards Lombardi because that period led to years and years of awful Giant teams.
RE: There was a 4th coaching decision  
Optimus-NY : 8/4/2017 1:32 pm : link
In comment 13549745 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
that was handled poorly and it was the chance to bring back Parcells, when they wouldn't wait until he decided and they'd already offered the job to Fassel, once Parcells finally accepted the job (according to lore).

Now you can't really say that was botched too badly because Fassel did get the Giants to a SB, but I always wonder if Parcells 2.0 would have been the return of Little Bill 2.0 as well and eventually the proper succession, since little bill did wind up joining big bill with the Jets once the Giants hired Fassel.


The Tischs wanted Parcells to come back home to coach the Giants, but the Maras wavered, if I remember this correctly. Once Welly said yes, it was too late because GY offered the job to Fassel. What happened is that GY forgot his cell phone on his ay to offer the job to Fassel. The story goes that had GY had the phone, he would have received word that the Wellington was all-in on Parcells. GY didn't want to hire him because that would have been the end of him and he didn't want Parcells back for what happened to the organization after how he left it.

GY asked his secretary how much he had saved so he could retire in case things went sideways. IF this went down, then Big Bill would have called the shots again, and then Belichick probably would have gladly ascended to the throne, and gladly at that. BB LOVED it here in NY with the Giants. It probably still is his dream job. Check out the article below on the subject:

"Giants were seconds away from bringing Bill Parcells back in 1997" - Posted Jan 15, 2015 - By Dan Salomone - www.giants.com - ( New Window )
Mistake on my part fellas  
Optimus-NY : 8/4/2017 1:35 pm : link
Wellington was fine with Parcells coming back. The Tischs were the ones who wavered at first, only to relent afterwards, but by that time it was too late. Mea Culpa.
RE: Mistake on my part fellas  
pjcas18 : 8/4/2017 1:40 pm : link
In comment 13549806 Optimus-NY said:
Quote:
Wellington was fine with Parcells coming back. The Tischs were the ones who wavered at first, only to relent afterwards, but by that time it was too late. Mea Culpa.


great story regardless, and hard to complain too much I'm happy with the success of the Eli/TC era, might never have had XLII and XLVI, but you can always wonder what might have been. Would Belichick and Brady be in NY? Would spygate have been their downfall in NY? Would they have won 5 SB's and gone to 7 and been the greatest dynasty on the history of the sport?

Woulda, Coulda, Shoulda. Little Bill went three years without a  
Marty in Albany : 8/4/2017 2:47 pm : link
winning record. Tom Landry went 5 or 6 with Dallas without a winning record.

Lombardi on the other hand was great from the get-go.
Ooaf...  
trueblueinpw : 8/4/2017 2:56 pm : link
It has taken me years to get to the point where I don't curse the Tuna's name when I see him on TV even mentioned in the media. I hate him because I believe he intentionally botched Hoodie taking over the Giants because that would have diminished Tuna's legacy with Big Blue. Parcells dragged us out of the toilet. No doubt about it. I have to love him for the success. But man, he is a class A egomaniac, there isn't anyone in Parcells world more important than Parcells. I think he probably has a large degree of satisfaction knowing that he relegated Belichick to a footnote in the Giants history. Anyway, can't blame the Giants organization for Parcells treachery.

Wasn't around for Landry or Lombardi.
it wasn't Parcells, it was George Young who didn't want Belichick.  
Victor in CT : 8/4/2017 3:03 pm : link
He didn't think he had the communication skills to be a HC. Agree Parcells should have let thm know sooner. At least they would have had a shot to keep Coughlin.

If you believe Parcells, GY wanted Handley all along.
Vic, its not that BP didn't want lil bill  
Dave : 8/4/2017 3:37 pm : link
lil bill wasn't going to wait forever
BP screwed nyg by leaving when he did, maybe it was for medical reasons, maybe it was something else but by the time he left lil bill had moved on and nyg had no choice but to hire the next in line who happened to be you know who
RE: Vic, its not that BP didn't want lil bill  
Victor in CT : 8/4/2017 3:45 pm : link
In comment 13549900 Dave said:
Quote:
lil bill wasn't going to wait forever
BP screwed nyg by leaving when he did, maybe it was for medical reasons, maybe it was something else but by the time he left lil bill had moved on and nyg had no choice but to hire the next in line who happened to be you know who


I understand that Parcells should have quit sooner, but regardless GY was never going to hire Belichick to be HC
the real shitty years of Giant football were during Landry's time  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 8/4/2017 4:12 pm : link
in Dallas so I am going there....

Giant coaches while Landry coached Dallas:

Jim Lee Howell 1960
Allie Sherman 1961-1968
Alex Webster 1969-1973
Bill Arnsparger 1974-1976
John McVay 1976-1978
Ray Perkins 1979-1982
Bill Parcells 1983-1990

So it wasn't until Ray Perkins came along that we had any coach that could begin to compete with Landry. 19 years of crap.

So I am going with Landry.
Why worry about things like this?  
Ron Johnson 30 : 8/4/2017 5:03 pm : link
The Giants hit home runs with Parcells and Coughlin. They've had a great run. You can't predict how any of them would have performed here. the HC is the major piece of the puzzle but they don't guarantee championships.
Lombardi, who was both a tremendous coach and a great GM.  
yatqb : 8/4/2017 5:31 pm : link
.
RE: Guys, George Young was never going to hire Little Bill.  
MOOPS : 8/4/2017 8:22 pm : link
In comment 13549737 Optimus-NY said:
Quote:
GY said BB lacked people skills.


Which explains the Ray H@#%!*y hire.



Good call George.
The unwillingness to consider Belichick  
joeinpa : 8/4/2017 9:16 pm : link
As a head coach, and his stubbornness in not wanting to bring Parcells back, combined with an inability to adjust to free agency, will rightfully keep George Young out of the Hall of Fame.
RE: Vic, its not that BP didn't want lil bill  
jeffusedtobeonwebtv : 8/5/2017 6:34 am : link
In comment 13549900 Dave said:
Quote:
lil bill wasn't going to wait forever
BP screwed nyg by leaving when he did, maybe it was for medical reasons, maybe it was something else but by the time he left lil bill had moved on and nyg had no choice but to hire the next in line who happened to be you know who


Why was he who should not be named considered the next in line? Shouldn't Ron Erhardt who was the offensive coordinator have been ahead of him?
Erhardt was miffed that the NYG didn't hire him ahead of H********  
Optimus-NY : 8/5/2017 10:26 pm : link
As he should have been. He already had experience as an NFL HC before with the Pats. He would have made more sense, not that card counting demotivating POS that GY hired instead. Tey screwed the pooch royally and BP screwed hem even more.
Landry said that he could have been HC but chose to move back to Texas  
steve in ky : 8/5/2017 11:11 pm : link
For years Landry not being our HC bothered until I read his autobiography. He wanted to move back to Texas and we never really had a chance of his becoming the Giant head coach.

From his autobiography:

"...Wellington Mara called me into his office to say that he'd okayed the Dallas NFL groups plan to approach me about their head coaching position. But first he wanted me to know that when Jim Lee Howell took his planned retirement soon, Id be first in line to become head coach of the New York Giants. I listened again, but while I felt warm toward my good friend Wellington, and while I appreciated this expression of confidence, Alicia and I had pretty much decided the '59 season would be our last in New York. It was time to take our family home to Texas for good."
Another interesting quote on the topic from Wellington  
steve in ky : 8/5/2017 11:31 pm : link
From the book "The Landry Legend"

"I offered him the head coaching job for the Giants." said Mara....

"Tom said he'd loved his years with the Giants, but that he had a firm offer from the new expansion Houston team and that he thought he'd thought he just go back to Texas.

"Being an NFL Man, this worried me. I was aware of Tom's capabilities, and, if he wasn't going to coach our team, I certainly didn't want him going to the AF. So I got in touch with Tex Schramm and strongly recommended he hire Tom for the Dallas expansion team."
Not sure if Lombardi would have been successful for the Giants  
JohnF : 8/6/2017 12:11 am : link
Unless the Mara's gave him the full control he had in Green Bay. The Giants FO was just a mess at that time (the drafting overall was putrid,trades were just as bad); plus, Wellington would fought to maintain control.

I don't think Lombardi lasts more that four years here, the NY media at that time would have gone after him, and the internal fights would have been horrific.

The only thing that would have saved the Giants from the dark period they went through from 1964 till 1979 was getting a competent GM who was free from owner interference, someone who could clear out the dead wood in the Front Office and bring in competent people. That didn't happen until George Young was forced on NY, and it's no mistake that the Giants success from 1979 till today is a result of the reforms GY put in.

People who think the issue was coaching are mistaken. You could have had Lombardi, Paul Brown or George Halas as HC, and without a decent FO they would have failed here.



Clearly hiring the'other guy' was a mistake  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/6/2017 12:50 am : link
but George Young was kinda right about Belichick not having the personality you could see projecting to NFL head coach.

It works in boston at least in part because the ownership just does not care at all how his behavior is received.


You saw how combative Tom Coughlin was with the media initially, and how well that worked out here. The only thing that gets you a pass for that stuff is winning big, and who's to say Belichick was ready to do that at that point in his career.
just can't imagine the  
bluepepper : 8/6/2017 1:11 am : link
thought process that decided that 2-time SB champ DC didn't have what it takes to be a HC but the RB coach did. And it's not like Handley had other worldly people skills. He was on the brainy intellectual side himself with little or no personality. And no experience as HC or even coordinator. Probably no other GM in that situation would have hired Handley over Erhardt much less Belichick (if he had still been available).

Of course Young is also the guy who only had four selections ready when we had the 5th pick in the 1996 draft. Really strange guy.
RE: Not sure if Lombardi would have been successful for the Giants  
steve in ky : 8/6/2017 10:22 am : link
In comment 13550611 JohnF said:
Quote:
Unless the Mara's gave him the full control he had in Green Bay. The Giants FO was just a mess at that time (the drafting overall was putrid,trades were just as bad); plus, Wellington would fought to maintain control.

I don't think Lombardi lasts more that four years here, the NY media at that time would have gone after him, and the internal fights would have been horrific.

The only thing that would have saved the Giants from the dark period they went through from 1964 till 1979 was getting a competent GM who was free from owner interference, someone who could clear out the dead wood in the Front Office and bring in competent people. That didn't happen until George Young was forced on NY, and it's no mistake that the Giants success from 1979 till today is a result of the reforms GY put in.

People who think the issue was coaching are mistaken. You could have had Lombardi, Paul Brown or George Halas as HC, and without a decent FO they would have failed here.




With he respect Mara had for Landry & Lombardi I suspect he would have deferred to them for many of the decisions and allowed them enough room to where it would have made a difference compared to what ended up happening.

At least it would have to had to make some difference.
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