Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner
 

Archived Thread

NFT: If the Mets had won game 5 of the 2015 WS

spike : 8/6/2017 4:38 pm
would that have changed the overall outcome?

Or would it just delay the inevitable Royals victory?


If Collins took out Harvey and put in Familia before the ninth inning to close out the game, would the course of history change?

Or were the Royals just a bad bad matchup for that Mets squad?
Bad matchup?  
pjcas18 : 8/6/2017 4:46 pm : link
the Mets bullpen blew 3 of the 4 games late.

Game 1, Familia gives up the game tying HR to Alex Gordon on a stupid quick pitch in the bottom of the 9th, then they lose in 14

that set the tone for the series. KC 1 - 0

Game 2 Mets get blown out, deGrom off his game., KC 2- 0

Game 3, Mets blow out, KC 2 - 1

Game 4, Mets had the lead in the top of the 8th, Clippard and Familia pitch like dicks and blow it, KC 3 - 1

Game 5, Mets had the lead in the top of the 9th once again and as we know Harvey and Familia (and Reed) blew it.

Clearly not over-matched but just highlights how critical closing out games is and the need for a bullpen.

The Mets may be the only team to lose 3 world series games where they had the lead in the 8th inning. not sure. But ny no means would I say the Royals over-matched them even losing in 5 games.
DeGrom & Thore  
GmeninPSL : 8/6/2017 4:49 pm : link
going back to KC, it's not a stretch to think this series would have gone 7 and in a one game take all, it's anyone's guess?
Mets blew leads in the 8th inning or later  
Vanzetti : 8/6/2017 4:53 pm : link
in three of the four losses, so better bullpen management may possibly have altered the outcome.

Game 1: Familia tried to quick pitch and the Royals were 100% expecting it and ready. Tying HR in the ninth. Familia had been so utterly dominant, there was no reason to try quick pitching. With his stuff, he does not need it. Why did Warthern and Terry not tell him to bag the quick pitch. Or did Familia do it on his own?

Game 4: Tyler Clippard. He had a bad back and had not been effective for the last month. But Terry still brings him in as the 8th inning guy.

Game 5: Any time a starter argues to stay in the game, it is with the understanding that you are coming out at the first sign of trouble. Harvey should have come out after the first batter got on.


Terry does some good things as manger but handling the pen is not one of them.

Ultimately, one can not say what would have happened. It is just opinion, one way or another. If Caesar had lived, how would the Roman empire have been different? It i all just speculation.


It's just sad to see  
spike : 8/6/2017 4:59 pm : link
that 2015 was the pinnacle achievement of this group of players, when we all thought that was only the beginning of a "run".

The Achilles heel was always Terry Collins, unfortunately.
I think PJ is right about game 1 setting the tone  
Vanzetti : 8/6/2017 5:01 pm : link
Familia saves that game and I have a feeling it is Mets in 5.

That's why baseball is so great. One pitch or swing can change a series. Even a better example: Doc Gooden dominating with unhittable stuff. John Shelby fouls off a bunch of pitches and draws a walk. A visibly frustrated Gooden rears back and throws a fastball right over the plate and Scioscia is looking fastball all the way and hits a weak HR that barely clears the fence in RF. Normally, he never gets around on Doc.

Then Gibson does his magic and the rest is history.

If Mel or Gary comes out to talk to Doc and settle him down, then it is A's vs Mets in the matchup everyone wanted to see.

I was only 10 at the time and I remember it like it was yesterday.
RE: It's just sad to see  
Vanzetti : 8/6/2017 5:04 pm : link
In comment 13550963 spike said:
Quote:
that 2015 was the pinnacle achievement of this group of players, when we all thought that was only the beginning of a "run".

The Achilles heel was always Terry Collins, unfortunately.


Ironically, you could say David Wright is to blame for talking Sandy out of firing Terry in August 2014.

Of course, some will argue Mets don't get to WS without Terry in 2015.
They most likely still would have lost  
dpinzow : 8/6/2017 5:11 pm : link
would have needed to win twice in KC against that wild crowd
The 2015  
pjcas18 : 8/6/2017 5:15 pm : link
WS for the Mets reminded me a little of 2000.

Benitez blows game 1 on the road and the rest is history, Familia blows game 1 on the road and the rest is history.

no guarantee the Mets win either series had their closer not blown game 1, but winning that game on the road in the 2 - 3 - 2 format changes a lot of pressure.

Those game 1's are the games I'd wonder out going the other way and switching series outcomes more than I'd question game 5 of 2015, since the way Familia had been pitching in the WS if Terry yanked Harvey I wasn't confident the Mets would have won that game anyway.

No mention of Daniel Murphy  
ZGiants98 : 8/6/2017 6:12 pm : link
Bill Bucknering us in Game 4?? Interesting.
To answer your question  
ZGiants98 : 8/6/2017 6:14 pm : link
Yes it would have made a huge difference. Not only do you have DeGrom and Syndergaard going games 6 and 7 but Matz and Harvey would have been available out of the pen making any "backend issues" moot.
RE: It's just sad to see  
Gmen1982 : 8/6/2017 8:06 pm : link
In comment 13550963 spike said:
Quote:
that 2015 was the pinnacle achievement of this group of players, when we all thought that was only the beginning of a "run".

The Achilles heel was always Terry Collins, unfortunately.


It's easy to criticize managers when their decisions do not work. It's all based on probability and statistics. The fact is that the team always plays hard for terry. That is something people can't debate. Every fan base does it. Blame the manager/coach. It's the players executing more than anything.
I don't blame  
pjcas18 : 8/6/2017 8:22 pm : link
Terry for 2015 WS loss, I blame Familia and Clippard.

Familia was lights out until the WS. Your closer is supposed to close games. Your set up guy is supposed to set up the closer. The only questionable call I remember Terry making (there could be more) is leaving Harvey in game 5, but like I said before I'm not sure that game ends any differently if he took him out.

Even the WC game in 2016 I blame Familia.

Reed and Clippard pitched scoreless innings  
ZGiants98 : 8/6/2017 8:54 pm : link
in Games 1 and 3. In game 2 they didn't pitch. Clippard had one bad game. Game 4. He allowed 2 runs in Game 4 but it wasn't even really all his fault. Of course Murphy contributed to that disaster inning in the 8th and Familia came on and gave up one of the inherited runs anyway. Reed gave up some runs in game 5 in extra innings but I firmly believe there was no way we were winning that game once KC tied it. They had all the momentum in the world at that point.

Familia was the biggest culprit in the WS. He was simply awful and instrumental in taking part of 3 of our 4 losses.

I also maintain there was nothing we could have done. At least we went down with our best on the field. Familia was a top 5 closer. Having better bullpen options surrounding him wasn't going to prevent him from being in at those moments. Some times you just get beat or it doesn't go your way. Ill take Familia in those chances over again 90 times out of 100.

The second biggest culprit was our putrid offense. Murphy and Cespedes were laughably bad and KC actually had the weakest rotation of the teams we faced. There should have never have been so much stress on the pen/rotation in the first place.

Oh well.
I guess it's easier to give Murphy a pass when he literally  
PhiPsi125 : 8/6/2017 9:03 pm : link
carried the Mets to the WS. Other players need to step up and help the cause.
maybe  
spike : 8/6/2017 9:34 pm : link
another 10 years before we sniff another deep postseason run.
You can't just blame the bullpen  
twostepgiants : 8/6/2017 9:57 pm : link
Familia got us the win in G5, he did enough except for the Lucas Duda throwing error. He inherited runners, had no outs and got an out and a double play ball. He did his job in G5. Duda needs to make that throw.

Obviously the Murphy error in G4 as well

But also the Mets offense which could only generate solo HRs.

How about Cespedes who grossly misplayed the first pitch of G1 and gave away a very costly run and was worse than useless at the plate all 5 games.

Collins managed poorly from G1 by stupidly starting Cuddyer, who was a dead man walking all playoffs, instead of Lagares in CF in that ocean of An OF.

He mismanaged the pen and underused Colon who was throwing great and should have been used like El Sid in 86.

The list goes on and on of culprits. I think only Granderson and Thor played great.
RE: I think PJ is right about game 1 setting the tone  
dpinzow : 8/6/2017 11:30 pm : link
In comment 13550966 Vanzetti said:
Quote:
Familia saves that game and I have a feeling it is Mets in 5.

That's why baseball is so great. One pitch or swing can change a series. Even a better example: Doc Gooden dominating with unhittable stuff. John Shelby fouls off a bunch of pitches and draws a walk. A visibly frustrated Gooden rears back and throws a fastball right over the plate and Scioscia is looking fastball all the way and hits a weak HR that barely clears the fence in RF. Normally, he never gets around on Doc.

Then Gibson does his magic and the rest is history.

If Mel or Gary comes out to talk to Doc and settle him down, then it is A's vs Mets in the matchup everyone wanted to see.

I was only 10 at the time and I remember it like it was yesterday.


1988 and 2006 are the real missed chances in Mets history. If they get to the WS in either year I think they win (Mets pitching would overpower Canseco/McGwire in 1988; Tigers were a weak AL pennant winner in 2006)
RE: I guess it's easier to give Murphy a pass when he literally  
Metnut : 8/7/2017 8:49 am : link
In comment 13551069 PhiPsi125 said:
Quote:
carried the Mets to the WS. Other players need to step up and help the cause.


Exactly. It also helps that there were plenty of defensive blunders to go around that series.

Cespedes completely taking off a fly ball and allowing an inside the park HR was one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen. Even more sadly, it was a sign of things to come. Odd injuries (the golf/shoulder thing) and lapses in concentration in the OF.
Back to the Corner