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The Fellas say no way on the Giants: OL

Beezer : 8/6/2017 8:14 pm
I'm posting this a bit after the fact. Apologies for that. I was on my way out of town when I heard it on Fox radio Saturday and ended up at a friend's cottage where we had spotty Internet, tons of booze and a lake full of bass.

Anthony Gargano and Lincoln Kennedy are known on their radio show as The Fellas. They were talking around the league and they made it to the Giants and the first thing they started talking about was how impressive the receivers are this year. They mentioned the obvious three then Engram as well. Said they think he will impress, as will Shep. But of course they had to throw in the question: are there enough footballs to go around? I just don't get to that point with this team. I realize we have a bit of a diva at the number one, but I don't think he's going to squawk at all if the Giants are winning football games and he has six receptions for 73 yards here and there.

They got into the RBs and praised the draft choice out of Clemson, but questioned whether the UCLA guy (Perkins) could "carry the load." Felt like saying, who cares? We might have 3-4 guys touching the football out of the backfield.

Then it went to the OL. Mentioned Flowers as a guy who has disappointed, and said little else. Nothing about continuity, which some of us believe will be a positive in the long run and even this year if we are lucky, and nothing about things Sy has pointed out, such as Pugh emerging as an Alpha dog, Richburg being healthy and solid, and some other decent pieces, plus Fluker dropping weight and seeming to be making strides.

Summed that segment up saying the Giants have a quarterback who's been very durable then they "do nothing" to solidify the O line, and for that reason they sum up ... the Giants are going nowhere.

Big picture, means diddly, I realize. Still irritated me.
Shakespeare said it best  
JohnF : 8/6/2017 8:32 pm : link
With apologies to the Bard, I'll paraphrase:

(The Fellas are) but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
People get to say whatever they want.  
81_Great_Dane : 8/6/2017 8:44 pm : link
Nobody knows how the season's going to turn out.

Except Biff Tannen.
I for one  
Big Blue '56 : 8/6/2017 8:48 pm : link
am waiting for PFF to weigh in..
Meh. Low hanging fruit, but not without some justification.  
Klaatu : 8/6/2017 9:02 pm : link
FWIW, I couldn't stand Kennedy when he was on Total Accees. Seemed to be an absolute Giant-hater.
It's the weekend.  
Lurts : 8/6/2017 9:12 pm : link
What were you doing at work? Relax.
They had SOME information  
Beezer : 8/6/2017 9:14 pm : link
that most national talkers have. But not enough.

Over the past few years when I've noticed the most about national talk show hosts trying to make assessments on NFL teams in early August is that they don't know anything whatsoever. It's bothersome and I don't know whether try to even put it out there because you would think that any knowledgeable fans would not get right back in their faces. But the bottom line is, and I am sure most of you agree with this, maybe less than 3% of the fan base of any NFL team, including this one, actually know anything about the team.

How many times have you folks been talking to someone, whether it's at a Little League game or a party or at work, and they tried to tell you all about the Giants and they don't know jack shit about anything.

Even for some of us that aren't in-depth X's and O's guys, know a shit load more than just about everybody out there. Here we are in August and we are right here, reading and eating up every ounce of information that we can get. I try to have intelligent conversations with people at work, the few of them that are Giants fans, and they tell me that they are in baseball mode. Um, OK.

Frustrating when the national talkers are those guys too.
I'm surprised Anthony Gargano  
St. Jimmy : 8/6/2017 9:21 pm : link
wasn't talking about Wentz and Embiid. He does love himself some Spags though.
As far as our ol goes, we won't know anything until they start  
Ira : 8/6/2017 9:21 pm : link
playing games that count. I imagine we'll see some improvement, but whether it's just a little or it's significant - the jury is out.
Ira, it's more than just the OL.  
Beezer : 8/6/2017 9:33 pm : link
TE improvement. Presumably a FB in the house. Marshall blocking from the 2 spot.

Continuity PLUS all that. Gotta be a plus.
RE: waiting for PFF to weigh in  
Trainmaster : 8/6/2017 9:51 pm : link
well played, BB56

:-)
They know nothing - and care nothing for the Giants  
mattlawson : 8/6/2017 10:29 pm : link
Philly through and through. They are routinely surprised if the Giants do well
We've already been through the narratives "Is Beckham gonna be  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/6/2017 10:47 pm : link
a bad teammate if he doesn't get the ball?" and "Can they keep all these receivers happy?"

That was supposed to happen years ago with Cruz and it didn't. And in 2011 the Giants had Cruz, Nicks, and Manningham and it was never a problem once.

If you consume sports media long enough, you learn to recognize all the go-to moves used to fill time. "There's only one football" is one of them.
I am a skeptic regarding the OL  
Reb8thVA : 8/6/2017 11:05 pm : link
But I would take what these "nationally focused" commentators say with a grain of salt and focus more on what the local writers are reporting. These national guys follow 32 teams. Their analysis is usually superficial at best repeating the conventional wisdom. They have neither the time nor the attention to provide well thought out analysis for each of the 32 teams. They hear Flowers is having technique issues and they are going to repeat that. Maybe they see him at one practice early on and make an assessment that is no longer accurate by the third week of preseason. Pay attention to some of the local guys
Most of the national guys get their information  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/6/2017 11:11 pm : link
from the locals anyway. They're just reading twitter like you.
RE: I for one  
Klaatu : 8/6/2017 11:18 pm : link
In comment 13551059 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
am waiting for PFF to weigh in..




I think they're gonna be wicked awesome!

--Percy Finster Farstoosis.
The reason it irritates you  
Vanzetti : 8/6/2017 11:57 pm : link
is that you know they might be right.

Saying they are relying on development and continuity is another wy of saying they did nothing. If continuity and development were all that's needed, every team in the league would have a good OL if they just gave it time--which is nonsense.

I'm hopeful the OL will improve but if it doesn't the Giants are fucked.
They weren't fucked last year  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/7/2017 12:05 am : link
And I don't think they got worse at OL this offseason.


Obviously it needs to be better, but it's not like the 2016 offense should have been expected to be this high flying offense and a bad offensive line just fucked it all up.

They didn't have the talent to offset an injured offensive line that was weak at a couple of spots. Now they kind of do.
Anthony Gargano is a moron  
jeff57 : 8/7/2017 5:44 am : link
.
I'm waiting for RAZE  
gidiefor : Mod : 8/7/2017 7:12 am : link
to weigh in
Fluker is  
XBRONX : 8/7/2017 7:19 am : link
Making strides? Where and when?
Sounds like they were spewing  
joeinpa : 8/7/2017 7:41 am : link
Generic points about the team. Not much else. Most of these guys do little research and in fact know much less about the teams they pontificate about than do that teams fans.

No one knows anything  
David B. : 8/7/2017 7:46 am : link
at this point in the season. Certainly not the national media talking heads who do 5 minutes of homework -- if that. The beat writers who follow things closely. The fans. Hell, the team doesn't even KNOW for certain.

Yes, ON PAPER . . .
the TEs SHOULD help
Keeping a FB WILL help -- if they do.
The individual OLs MAY be incrementally better than last year. (Fluker, btw, has not cracked the starting lineup -- i.e. beaten out Jerry.)
The OL depth MAY be better.

And all they have to really do is get from really bad, to middle of the pack, so it's not Everest. Just run block better and give Eli time to take a 5 step drop.

But it's all speculative.

Until the games are real, no one will know if it's really any better.
Not sure what your issue is?  
Jimmy Googs : 8/7/2017 7:52 am : link
- They praise our receivers and particularly some of our younger guys
- They say we are going to use RB by committee
- They say that our weakness is the O-line
- We have a durable QB but that's not going to be enough.

Seems like a fair summation of the offense at least.

Are you just upset they didn't pick us to win the SuperBowl?


RE: I'm surprised Anthony Gargano  
feelflows : 8/7/2017 8:12 am : link
In comment 13551079 St. Jimmy said:
Quote:
wasn't talking about Wentz and Embiid. He does love himself some Spags though.


Yep. He's an Eagles boy. Hard to listen to.
Thing with ol is not so much with the pass protect  
micky : 8/7/2017 8:39 am : link
But more on opening running lanes and allowing for a more consistent and productive running game..run blocking was the major problem with them.

Ellison, a fb, and different personnel alignment (diversity..instead of always "11 personnel") will be big if theyvworkout...but ol needs more consistency and not consistent breakdowns by either 1 or the group that has taken place for past few seasons. They also need an attitude a mean streak in them not to ok with the failures
I don't agree with the final assessment  
UberAlias : 8/7/2017 9:08 am : link
But the position breakdown seems pretty fair to me.

Quote:
Then it went to the OL. Mentioned Flowers as a guy who has disappointed, and said little else. Nothing about continuity, which some of us believe will be a positive in the long run and even this year if we are lucky, and nothing about things Sy has pointed out, such as Pugh emerging as an Alpha dog, Richburg being healthy and solid, and some other decent pieces, plus Fluker dropping weight and seeming to be making strides
Why should they say something about continuity? They had the same plan a year ago and there was no improvement.

With regard to Pugh emerging as Alpha dog, Richburg being healthy, Fluker dropping weight, etc., seriously, come on. I'm not saying these things won't help, but EVERY team has these same narratives in the offseason. How many years have I listened to Jets and Cowboy fans tell me why this is their year and any weakness I bring up that weren't addressed it's all --some unknown scrub is tearing it up in camp, so and so is finally focused, some guy's been working out like an animal, dropped 30 lbs, added 20 lbs of muscle, looks sharper/quicker, young guys are improving, another year in the system, etc, etc, etc.

Sometimes these things do pan out. More often than not they don't. If you put stock in the offseason spin, there wouldn't be a team out there with a weakness. Every team and most every player is doing everything they can to improve, especially the guys on the bubble or fighting for starting positions. This is their livelihood. But its like those disclaimers you hear on the legal commercials past performance doesn't guarantee results. The things you're reading about are necessary for improvement but they are not sufficient. There are no guarantees of results here.
I agree with Micky's post above  
David B. : 8/7/2017 9:09 am : link
However, there is this perception that the pass protection last year was adequate, because A, it was better than the run blocking, and B, because Eli got the ball out quick and didn't take many sacks.

But that's mostly because he was taking 3 step drops MOST of the time. He rarely had time for 5 and 7 step drops (i.e. no time for deep routes to develop, fewer big plays), and without a run game, the Play Action game (typically a big Eli weapon), was non-existent. So I contend that the pass protection needs to improve pretty dramatically, too. All these receiving options won't mean much, if Eli doesn't have time to get the ball downfield.

I agree that being able to change up the formations so they aren't in 11 95% of the time WILL be a huge upgrade for all aspects of the offense.
Getting the ball downfield isn't really what this offense has wanted  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/7/2017 9:13 am : link
to do the last three years. Since McAdoo has been here, it's always been about quick reads and quick hits. Those long developing players you're referencing were the previous offense.

A large part of the problem next to the pass rush last season was only having one offensive player that could break coverage. As much of a Cruz fan as I am, it was painful to watch him trying to separate from a defender and not be able to do so.

they went 11-5 and made the playoffs  
Glover : 8/7/2017 3:57 pm : link
with that weak O line last year. Pretty off take to say they aren't going anywhere. There very well could still be a big hole at LT, we have to see Flowers play in preseason. He may still be a below average NFL LT. I dont see how anyone can definitely say he will be average or better. He has to go out and show that. With that being said, the rest of the line looks to be better, and with the threat of the Giants being able to run the ball, the secondary opens up, and if Eli has 3.5 seconds, he will tear defenses up with all the weapons he has. I say 12-4, NFC East champs, Super Bowl Champs. How's that for not going nowhere?
Grain of salt  
Big_Pete : 8/7/2017 11:35 pm : link
I think we need to take all the OL talk with a grain of salt at this point.

One of the keys for me is that Mike Solari runs 'power' zone schemes. Flowers, Hart, Fluker are the kind of guys who are finishers; they aren't the finese style of guys common around the league but are the type of guys who will pound you.

These are the kind of guys who excel in the run game. The lack of a ground game last year really but Flowers and Hart in more situations that exposed their weaknesses rather than played to their strengths.

As far as Flowers goes, let's remember he is still young and often it can take LTs three years to really get it all together. Let's see what he can do on the pitch.

Sure the OL has to improve quite a lot, lets see how they go.

Run blocking  
XBRONX : 8/8/2017 7:13 am : link
Requires going forward something Jerry stinks at.
RE: Thing with ol is not so much with the pass protect  
gidiefor : Mod : 8/8/2017 7:24 am : link
In comment 13551303 micky said:
Quote:
But more on opening running lanes and allowing for a more consistent and productive running game..run blocking was the major problem with them.

Ellison, a fb, and different personnel alignment (diversity..instead of always "11 personnel") will be big if theyvworkout...but ol needs more consistency and not consistent breakdowns by either 1 or the group that has taken place for past few seasons. They also need an attitude a mean streak in them not to ok with the failures


I will say this regarding both Fluker and Flowers -- when moving forward and even pulling they are beasts in camp -- they both blast into the second level easily against anyone -- run blocking is not the problem -- the question is pass protection. We've seen some improvement from Flowers on that front though
RE: RE: Thing with ol is not so much with the pass protect  
micky : 8/8/2017 9:03 am : link
In comment 13552387 gidiefor said:
Quote:
In comment 13551303 micky said:


Quote:


But more on opening running lanes and allowing for a more consistent and productive running game..run blocking was the major problem with them.

Ellison, a fb, and different personnel alignment (diversity..instead of always "11 personnel") will be big if theyvworkout...but ol needs more consistency and not consistent breakdowns by either 1 or the group that has taken place for past few seasons. They also need an attitude a mean streak in them not to ok with the failures



I will say this regarding both Fluker and Flowers -- when moving forward and even pulling they are beasts in camp -- they both blast into the second level easily against anyone -- run blocking is not the problem -- the question is pass protection. We've seen some improvement from Flowers on that front though



Gidie...with my recent health issues I haven't been on to read most daily campnreports ..just sparingly unfortunately..between you and sy, what is the overall feeling or look to this point in this year's camp (know it's very early somewhat still) of the ol and noticeable if any difference that you can remember than the past..iflowers really improving on tech, etc etc...you think they can or will be more consistent line this season barring any unforeseen occurrences? Thanks
Radio heads just talk cause that is their job  
SGMen : 8/8/2017 9:28 am : link
The Fellas are just saying general things that we all know.

The OL, well, if healthy it will be improved for just these reasons alone:

1. Continuity - 2nd year of coach Solari, 3rd year offense
2. Flowers/Hart - worked hard off-season, should show some dividends. Maybe not studs but serviceable?
3. Pugh/Richburg - contracts...great, healthy play?
4. TE Ellison - can help the OT's vs top pass rushers

I just think, if healthy (the key...) we have a true shot to be "good enough" to move the ball consistently.
RE: RE: RE: Thing with ol is not so much with the pass protect  
gidiefor : Mod : 8/8/2017 10:48 am : link
In comment 13552439 micky said:
Quote:
In comment 13552387 gidiefor said:


Quote:


In comment 13551303 micky said:


Quote:


But more on opening running lanes and allowing for a more consistent and productive running game..run blocking was the major problem with them.

Ellison, a fb, and different personnel alignment (diversity..instead of always "11 personnel") will be big if theyvworkout...but ol needs more consistency and not consistent breakdowns by either 1 or the group that has taken place for past few seasons. They also need an attitude a mean streak in them not to ok with the failures



I will say this regarding both Fluker and Flowers -- when moving forward and even pulling they are beasts in camp -- they both blast into the second level easily against anyone -- run blocking is not the problem -- the question is pass protection. We've seen some improvement from Flowers on that front though




Gidie...with my recent health issues I haven't been on to read most daily campnreports ..just sparingly unfortunately..between you and sy, what is the overall feeling or look to this point in this year's camp (know it's very early somewhat still) of the ol and noticeable if any difference that you can remember than the past..iflowers really improving on tech, etc etc...you think they can or will be more consistent line this season barring any unforeseen occurrences? Thanks


The feeling is that Pugh, RIchburg and Jerry are solid, that Hart is a much improved player and that FLowers started out kind of slow but has been improving each day
micky, also that Jones is possibly  
Beezer : 8/8/2017 12:00 pm : link
becoming a very serviceable backup at C and G.
We've also read some positives on Fluker, as well ...  
Beezer : 8/8/2017 12:01 pm : link
but not sure how rose-colored those glasses have been.
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