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NFT: Game of Thrones S7 E5: Eastwatch - Pre-Broadcast Discussion

Big Blue Blogger : 8/8/2017 12:33 pm
Per a suggestion on the S7E4 thread, we can treat this as a "pre-game" forum. All forms of speculation are welcome... just try to base your posts on what we've seen in previous episodes, the S7E5 trailer or other official HBO material. I guess book references are OK for background info; the show is so far beyond A Dance with Dragons that "book spoiler" is an oxymoron.

What we know from the preview:
1) Daenerys offers the defeated Lannister army a choice: join her, or die.
2) Varys says Tyrion must find a way to make "her" listen. That's probably a reference to Dany, but - depending on the context - it could be Cersei.
3) Speaking of Cersei, her confidence appears unshaken, and Qyburn seems to be enjoying the challenge.
4) Jon and Drogon are properly introduced.
5) Bran notifies Jon, via raven, that the Others are on the march. Jon shares the news with Dany's Council. No indication whether that note from Bran contains a p.s. about the Tower of Joy and Jon's parentage.
6) The Dead are indeed coming. Based on the episode title, their current destination is not in doubt.

I haven't seen any canonical hints so far about Jaime's fate, the extent of Drogon's injuries, the status of food supplies in the South, the Iron Bank's reaction to recent developments, or Cersei's next move.
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One more point about spoilers and leaks:  
Big Blue Blogger : 8/9/2017 9:16 am : link
I think there's a natural divide between readers and non-readers on this subject. For four+ seasons, readers were accustomed to basically knowing the key events that would unfold, and enjoying the show for the execution. ;o)

With that experience, I think readers - on average - are less bothered by leaks and spoilers.
Not a reader.  
Motley Two : 8/9/2017 9:53 am : link
but I don't care about knowing anything from the books at this point. Burn them. Burn them all.
A couple of questions  
afann : 8/9/2017 10:03 am : link
Who is Jon's father? I read in a thread it is Dany's aunt? With the attack with the dragon was Dany listening to Jon?...thanks
RE: A couple of questions  
Motley Two : 8/9/2017 10:16 am : link
In comment 13553674 afann said:
Quote:
Who is Jon's father? I read in a thread it is Dany's aunt? With the attack with the dragon was Dany listening to Jon?...thanks


Dany's older brother Rhaegar Targaryen. Only mentioned on the show by other characters telling stories of the past.

RE: A couple of questions  
pjcas18 : 8/9/2017 10:16 am : link
In comment 13553674 afann said:
Quote:
Who is Jon's father? I read in a thread it is Dany's aunt? With the attack with the dragon was Dany listening to Jon?...thanks


If Dany's aunt was Jon's father she'd have balls and be her uncle.

Seriously the theory though is that Dany's oldest brother, Prince Rhaegar is Jon's real father, and his mother is Lyanna Stark, Ned Stark's sister who died giving birth at the Tower of Joy.
She did take Jon's advice with that attack  
Kyle in NY : 8/9/2017 10:26 am : link
Otherwise she was planning on attacking King's Landing and killing thousands of innocent people
From the article linked above,  
Don in DC : 8/9/2017 10:27 am : link
this is why I believe Tyrion is indeed a Targaryen:

Quote:
Throughout Game of Thrones, we’ve seen the Lannister father tell Tyrion "You are no son of mine” multiple times, most notably before being shot with a crossbow. Some fans believe Tywin’s words to be literal, the Lannister believing Tyrion may actually be Aerys Targaryen’s son.

There’s also Tyrion’s relationship with dragons, a Targaryen family trait. While growing up, Tyrion was obsessed with Dragons, always wishing to have one as a pet. Come the sixth season, we see Tyrion unchain one of Daenerys’ dragons locked away, the dragon being particularly calm around Tyrion. Could the magical beast know Tyrion has Targaryen blood?
What do you figure the Lannister casualties were  
Don in DC : 8/9/2017 10:53 am : link
in the Battle of the Loot Train? I figure it has to number in the thousands -- a sizable portion of their overall forces.

Moreover, it appears from the preview that Dany intends to turn the remaining Lannister troops and incorporate them into her own forces.

These facts, combined with the presumable capture or death of Randyll Tarly, Jamie and Bronn, has to seriously cripple Cersei's warfighting capability. A backbreaker, maybe.
I also don't think it's a coincidence  
RobCarpenter : 8/9/2017 10:58 am : link
That both Tyrion and Jon Snow's mother both died in childbirth.
Good point.  
Don in DC : 8/9/2017 11:03 am : link
A little detail like that is the sort of thing that GRRM would insert intentionally as a clue.

The question is, how would Tyrion's true parentage ever be revealed? Only way I can figure is through Bran -- or maybe Cersei herself knows, which would help explain why she has always hated Tyrion so much.
RE: I also don't think it's a coincidence  
PEEJ : 8/9/2017 11:11 am : link
In comment 13553744 RobCarpenter said:
Quote:
That both Tyrion and Jon Snow's mother both died in childbirth.


Dany's mother died in childbirth as well
Thanks  
afann : 8/9/2017 11:22 am : link
Everyone
RE: RE: I also don't think it's a coincidence  
Don in DC : 8/9/2017 11:24 am : link
In comment 13553755 PEEJ said:
Quote:
In comment 13553744 RobCarpenter said:


Quote:


That both Tyrion and Jon Snow's mother both died in childbirth.



Dany's mother died in childbirth as well


Shit. That does it. I'm sold!
Huh. I wonder if that  
Don in DC : 8/9/2017 11:28 am : link
is related to the Lightbringer myth, of the sword being tempered by Azor Ahai by plunging it into the heart of his wife, who died to forge the perfect weapon to stop the Others.

Never thought of that before, but it sounds like that might be the sort of echoing symbolism GRRM would write.


Link - ( New Window )
RE: RE: RE: I also don't think it's a coincidence  
Bill L : 8/9/2017 11:47 am : link
In comment 13553769 Don in DC said:
Quote:
In comment 13553755 PEEJ said:


Quote:


In comment 13553744 RobCarpenter said:


Quote:


That both Tyrion and Jon Snow's mother both died in childbirth.



Dany's mother died in childbirth as well



Shit. That does it. I'm sold!
Go back to our own medieval times and you'd probably find tons of people who could be Targaryan princes.
Lyanna, Joanna, Rhaella...  
Big Blue Blogger : 8/9/2017 12:05 pm : link
...There's clearly a pattern: double consonants followed by the letter "a". Coincidence? I don't think so!

Then again, lots of Disney characters have dead mothers, and none of them turned out to be Targaryens.
RE: Lyanna, Joanna, Rhaella...  
Chris in Philly : 8/9/2017 12:19 pm : link
In comment 13553813 Big Blue Blogger said:
Quote:
...There's clearly a pattern: double consonants followed by the letter "a". Coincidence? I don't think so!

Then again, lots of Disney characters have dead mothers, and none of them turned out to be Targaryens.


As far as you know!
Here is Tyrion  
pjcas18 : 8/9/2017 12:25 pm : link
with the dragon when he was younger, per Disney.


RE: Huh. I wonder if that  
moespree : 8/9/2017 12:29 pm : link
In comment 13553773 Don in DC said:
Quote:
is related to the Lightbringer myth, of the sword being tempered by Azor Ahai by plunging it into the heart of his wife, who died to forge the perfect weapon to stop the Others.


Lots of talk from Jon Snow about how good of a heart Dany has this past episode. Davos randomly and casually mentioning it as well...
RE: Here is Tyrion  
Big Blue Blogger : 8/9/2017 12:34 pm : link
pjcas18 said:
Quote:
with the dragon when he was younger, per Disney.
Not to mention Mulan and Mushu. Hmmmm...
RE: RE: Huh. I wonder if that  
Big Blue Blogger : 8/9/2017 12:53 pm : link
Don in DC said:
Quote:
is related to the Lightbringer myth, of the sword being tempered by Azor Ahai by plunging it into the heart of his wife, who died to forge the perfect weapon to stop the Others.
moespree said:
Quote:
Lots of talk from Jon Snow about how good of a heart Dany has this past episode. Davos randomly and casually mentioning it as well...
Before we start setting Longclaw on fire and sacrificing queens with it, let's see who winds up owning the big old thing when Jorah shows up. Jon might still consider it Mormont family property. Maybe Jon will give up Longclaw and draw the original Lightbringer from dragonflame. Or maybe Lightbringer is just another goofy eastern myth. But if Melisandre hangs around long enough, she's sure to be right about something eventually.
RE: RE: Here is Tyrion  
pjcas18 : 8/9/2017 12:58 pm : link
In comment 13553845 Big Blue Blogger said:
Quote:
pjcas18 said:

Quote:


with the dragon when he was younger, per Disney.

Not to mention Mulan and Mushu. Hmmmm...


I believe they all shared the same father.
RE: RE: RE: Huh. I wonder if that  
moespree : 8/9/2017 1:07 pm : link
In comment 13553865 Big Blue Blogger said:
Quote:
Don in DC said:

Quote:


is related to the Lightbringer myth, of the sword being tempered by Azor Ahai by plunging it into the heart of his wife, who died to forge the perfect weapon to stop the Others.

moespree said:

Quote:


Lots of talk from Jon Snow about how good of a heart Dany has this past episode. Davos randomly and casually mentioning it as well...

Before we start setting Longclaw on fire and sacrificing queens with it, let's see who winds up owning the big old thing when Jorah shows up. Jon might still consider it Mormont family property. Maybe Jon will give up Longclaw and draw the original Lightbringer from dragonflame. Or maybe Lightbringer is just another goofy eastern myth. But if Melisandre hangs around long enough, she's sure to be right about something eventually.


It wouldn't surprise me if Jorah wound up with Longclaw at some point. I don't think Jon is meant to have that sword forever. They haven't really gone into much detail about Blackfyre or Dawn in the show, but those are out there somewhere, ready to be used by someone.
Didn't Azor Ahai  
Motley Two : 8/9/2017 1:15 pm : link
first have an attempt at plunging the sword into a lion, but it shattered?

I think those pieces may have been made into a few other weapons, like a dagger for instance.
Long Claw, Catspaw...  
Motley Two : 8/9/2017 1:17 pm : link
Hmmm
RE: RE: I also don't think it's a coincidence  
pjcas18 : 8/9/2017 1:20 pm : link
In comment 13553755 PEEJ said:
Quote:
In comment 13553744 RobCarpenter said:


Quote:


That both Tyrion and Jon Snow's mother both died in childbirth.



Dany's mother died in childbirth as well


Tyrion's and Dany's mothers had other children though, so is there some significance maybe that Jon Snow's mother did not (as far as I know).

Sam's doing study work at the Citadel  
Motley Two : 8/9/2017 1:32 pm : link
Learning about shit, reading stuff & following the directions.
Maybe they forge a new Light Bringer? Still probably take a very talented blacksmith though. Somebody with powerful forearms. Hmmm

Would still require a heart to plunge it through. Hmmmm
RE: Sam's doing study work at the Citadel  
RobCarpenter : 8/9/2017 1:46 pm : link
In comment 13553912 Motley Two said:
Quote:
Learning about shit, reading stuff & following the directions.


I didn't think he was learning about shit as much as he was shoveling it.
RE: RE: Sam's doing study work at the Citadel  
Motley Two : 8/9/2017 1:53 pm : link
In comment 13553932 RobCarpenter said:
Quote:
In comment 13553912 Motley Two said:


Quote:


Learning about shit, reading stuff & following the directions.




I didn't think he was learning about shit as much as he was shoveling it.


Haha, true. But he did learn about a way to treat Jorah's acne and they did show him flipping through a book with now Arya's dagger pictured and discovering a cache of dragon glass.
I wasn't predicting that  
Don in DC : 8/9/2017 2:01 pm : link
Jon would shove a sword through Dany's heart (though I wouldn't rule it out either). Instead, I was wondering if their mothers didn't die to "forge" them the way AA's wife died to forge Lightbringer.
RE: RE: Sam's doing study work at the Citadel  
pjcas18 : 8/9/2017 2:03 pm : link
In comment 13553932 RobCarpenter said:
Quote:
In comment 13553912 Motley Two said:


Quote:


Learning about shit, reading stuff & following the directions.




I didn't think he was learning about shit as much as he was shoveling it.


I think it's all a setup, Sam is no longer shoveling shit, but he's now re-writing scrolls, you know one of those scrolls is going to contain text be relevant in some way to stopping the Night King's army or to the story/plot in some other way.
RE: RE: RE: Sam's doing study work at the Citadel  
Motley Two : 8/9/2017 2:10 pm : link
In comment 13553973 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 13553932 RobCarpenter said:


Quote:


In comment 13553912 Motley Two said:


Quote:


Learning about shit, reading stuff & following the directions.




I didn't think he was learning about shit as much as he was shoveling it.



I think it's all a setup, Sam is no longer shoveling shit, but he's now re-writing scrolls, you know one of those scrolls is going to contain text be relevant in some way to stopping the Night King's army or to the story/plot in some other way.


Yep. You rewrite the oldest scrolls first.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Sam's doing study work at the Citadel  
eli4life : 8/9/2017 2:47 pm : link
In comment 13553982 Motley Two said:
Quote:
In comment 13553973 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


In comment 13553932 RobCarpenter said:


Quote:


In comment 13553912 Motley Two said:


Quote:


Learning about shit, reading stuff & following the directions.




I didn't think he was learning about shit as much as he was shoveling it.



I think it's all a setup, Sam is no longer shoveling shit, but he's now re-writing scrolls, you know one of those scrolls is going to contain text be relevant in some way to stopping the Night King's army or to the story/plot in some other way.



Yep. You rewrite the oldest scrolls first.


I'm thinking yes he's punishing him by making him rewrite the scrolls but at the same time giving him ones to rewrite that would help his cause
Yeah, Sam learning something important is the only reason his story  
Heisenberg : 8/9/2017 2:59 pm : link
is relevant to the plot at this point.
The weekly drop of promotional stills is out.  
Big Blue Blogger : 8/9/2017 3:15 pm : link
And yes, Hannah Murray and John Bradley appear to be hitting the books for more improbable exposition.
Gilly helps Sam with his homework - ( New Window )
One thing about the Tyrion as Targaryen (NON-SHOW BOOK SPOILERS)  
Cenotaph : 8/9/2017 3:16 pm : link
That bugs me a little....they do make a big deal about how the dragons have a natural affinity for Targaryens - obviously Dany, and the thought that Jon will show it too, Brown Ben Plumm from the books (who the dragons like even though he betrays Dany), etc. There's several examples, and the fact that the dragons seem ok with Tyrion seems like a strong point in his favor - especially compared to someone like Quentyn, who ends up toasty. However, didn't Quent also have a drop of dragon blood? The Martells and Targaryens intermarried several times - did none of these marriages lead to Doran's lineage? I suppose it's possible that there were family connections without Quent ending up with Dragon blodd (and likely the explanation), but it bugged me because in the books, I thought Quentyn mentions having a tiny bit of Targaryen blood in his past. In fact, after 300 years (despite their propensity to keep it in the family), there's likely many Westerosi houses with a drop of Dragon blood, like Brown Ben (from an offshoot branch of a lesser house, now mostly extinct/exiled I believe.

Minor quibble as there are likely plenty of ways to explain it away, but also a way to explain the Tyrion scene being a bit of a red herring. Maybe the dragons are just smart and knew he was helping them (removing their chains), and with Quentyn they realized he was going to chain them up again or they saw opportunity to escape, or just the threat of armed sellswords with him.

I don't think we see Tyrion as a dragon rider, even if he is a Targaryen. My $ is on Dany & Jon and....well not sure, there's no real obvious candidate. Which may have meaning in itself, or maybe it's Bran (not sure how), or Bronn (near impossible - that would be awesome tho)...or there's a different plan...

Oh, count me among those who think Bronn complaining about his pay may be part of a setup to push him back with Tyrion. Would love to see a reunion there. Jaime did promise a castle, but more likely Bronn doesn't want to be on the losing/non-dragon side - he's a smart sellsword, Lannister side isn't looking like it will pay off...
I think  
Amtoft : 8/9/2017 3:47 pm : link
a big thing that makes people think Tyrion is possibly a Targ is that fact that he grow up with such vivid dreams of riding a dragon. Targaryen's are known to have visions. You then throw in the fact that Tywin mentioned that he was no son of his and that he only still let him be around because he couldn't prove it. That fact that all 3 of Tyrion, Jon, Dany's mothers died during their child birth, that the dragon's didn't eat or burn Tyrion, etc etc etc... there is a logical connection to it, but we are running out of time. Not all theories, prophecies, visions,etc point a certain direction or come to pass.
RE: Yeah, Sam learning something important is the only reason his story  
Pete in 'Vliet : 8/9/2017 4:37 pm : link
In comment 13554080 Heisenberg said:
Quote:
is relevant to the plot at this point.


I hold out hope that he will find a recipe for Valerian steel somewhere in those old scrolls. Perhaps there is a way to merge steel with dragon glass using actual dragon fire. Three things that will be easy to find on Dragonstone.
Also, in the books,  
Don in DC : 8/9/2017 4:38 pm : link
Tyrion is described as having platinum blond hair. Much more Targaryen-like than the golden blond typical of Lannisters.
RE: RE: Yeah, Sam learning something important is the only reason his story  
Motley Two : 8/9/2017 4:59 pm : link
In comment 13554194 Pete in 'Vliet said:
Quote:
In comment 13554080 Heisenberg said:


Quote:


is relevant to the plot at this point.



I hold out hope that he will find a recipe for Valerian steel somewhere in those old scrolls. Perhaps there is a way to merge steel with dragon glass using actual dragon fire. Three things that will be easy to find on Dragonstone.


This^
Cersei fan theory  
jestersdead : 8/10/2017 2:02 pm : link
Just read a fan theory about Cersei being a Targaryen and it's based on the Hodor actor's accidental tweet
Cersei - ( New Window )
RE: Cersei fan theory  
pjcas18 : 8/10/2017 2:06 pm : link
In comment 13555151 jestersdead said:
Quote:
Just read a fan theory about Cersei being a Targaryen and it's based on the Hodor actor's accidental tweet Cersei - ( New Window )


Highly unlikely IMO, though it might make more sense than Tyrion being Targaryen.
I kinda hope none of these other Targaryen  
bceagle05 : 8/10/2017 2:12 pm : link
rumors are true - Tyrion, Cersei, Jamie, whoever. It's fun to speculate and read between the lines, but Jon as a Targaryen is the big revelation of the whole story - I don't think others are needed.
RE: I kinda hope none of these other Targaryen  
pjcas18 : 8/10/2017 2:16 pm : link
In comment 13555161 bceagle05 said:
Quote:
rumors are true - Tyrion, Cersei, Jamie, whoever. It's fun to speculate and read between the lines, but Jon as a Targaryen is the big revelation of the whole story - I don't think others are needed.


but the dragon has three heads according to the house of the undying.

RE: Cersei fan theory  
Heisenberg : 8/10/2017 2:41 pm : link
In comment 13555151 jestersdead said:
Quote:
Just read a fan theory about Cersei being a Targaryen and it's based on the Hodor actor's accidental tweet Cersei - ( New Window )


This would be really effing annoying considering all the hints in the book that point a different direction.
Any of you catch the Tampa Bay Bucs  
Motley Two : 8/10/2017 2:46 pm : link
talk G.O.T. at the end of Hard Knocks?
Pretty Funny - ( New Window )
On the Cersei thing, so Cersei and Jamie would have different fathers  
slickwilly : 8/10/2017 3:12 pm : link
even though they are twins? Tywin impregnates Joanna with Jamie and then the Mad King rapes her and impregnates her with Cersei? I know it's physically possible, but that would be kind of stupid.
RE: On the Cersei thing, so Cersei and Jamie would have different fathers  
pjcas18 : 8/10/2017 3:19 pm : link
In comment 13555228 slickwilly said:
Quote:
even though they are twins? Tywin impregnates Joanna with Jamie and then the Mad King rapes her and impregnates her with Cersei? I know it's physically possible, but that would be kind of stupid.


No, I believe they (Jamie and Cersei) would both be Targaryens, is my assumption

and I said it makes more sense than Tyrion being Targaryen because the rumor was the Aerys took Joanna's virginity (maybe on her wedding day?).

when for Tyrion being a Targaryen either Aerys had to rape Joanna or just bang her with Tywin not knowing and I find that sort of far-fetched I guess.

I don't think this fan theory about Cersei is true, but who knows.
On one hand, we're weighing the words of the actor who played Hodor  
Heisenberg : 8/10/2017 3:21 pm : link
against all the breadcrumbs in the books.
Although most of the released material shows the South...  
Big Blue Blogger : 8/13/2017 12:17 pm : link
...tonight is probably the episode where the show starts pivoting to the North. The title says that much.
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