Fascinating stuff, this Leah Remini show. Granted, it's slow AF, and the delivery is sometimes annoying, but I find it fascinating, all the rules/laws L. Ron wrote and they still follow, how they appear to try to ruin/dismantle the lives of any people who either leave their clutches or try to discredit them from the outside.
I find it completely amazing that so many people are so easily drawn in by this and other cults.
The more you learn, the more crazy it looks.
If you're a BBI Scientologist/Cult member, sorry/not sorry.
He said a very large portion of what he had to write in his report was about his entire life's experiences with sex - everything. They he'd write pages about the most intimate things and they'd "evaluate" and send him back to write more, saying that wasn't enough. lol
Whaaaat?
Seriously drawing that line?
The HBO special on Scientology was great. Paul Haggis was particularly interesting. He described how when one gets to the highest level of the church, having spent millions to attain the highest level, they finally let you in on the big L. Ron Hubbard secret. It involves the whole alien scenario, with Xenu and depositing souls into Earthly volcanoes, etc.
His reactions was "Are you fucking kidding me? This is the payoff?!"
It was really eye opening, and amazing to hear a high profile guy admit he'd been duped.
2. Wiff Waff
3. Mad Plaid
4. TD
5. Kyle
6. Dylan Fan"
Plenty of "organized religions" that have far-fetched story lines for folks who like proof, or science (literally), but are still not considered "cults" by the average standard of such a thing.
Link - ( New Window )
And also not to sound atheistic or offensive, but all religions are scams. People are of course entitled to have whatever faith they want, it's one of our founding principles in the US, but it doesn't make them any less of a scam.
And it's kind of hypocritical for someone of one religion to point the finger at another and say "they're crazy" they all are. Biggest scam on the planet.
just some are more widely accepted so you can point your finger and laugh at the others.
The HBO special on Scientology was great. Paul Haggis was particularly interesting. He described how when one gets to the highest level of the church, having spent millions to attain the highest level, they finally let you in on the big L. Ron Hubbard secret. It involves the whole alien scenario, with Xenu and depositing souls into Earthly volcanoes, etc.
His reactions was "Are you fucking kidding me? This is the payoff?!"
It was really eye opening, and amazing to hear a high profile guy admit he'd been duped.
Xenu, Thetans, Volcanoes, I can get on board with all of that. All completely non-falsifiable claims, nothing we haven't seen from other creation myths. Who am I to say that those are not primal forces of the universe.
But the DC-8s? That's where I hop off.
And also not to sound atheistic or offensive, but all religions are scams. People are of course entitled to have whatever faith they want, it's one of our founding principles in the US, but it doesn't make them any less of a scam.
And it's kind of hypocritical for someone of one religion to point the finger at another and say "they're crazy" they all are. Biggest scam on the planet.
just some are more widely accepted so you can point your finger and laugh at the others.
how did your 7 year old brother order something online in the mid-80s?
Quote:
it's a scam, and they tried to recruit my 7 year old brother who ordered Dianetics online with a COD payment in the mid-80's.
And also not to sound atheistic or offensive, but all religions are scams. People are of course entitled to have whatever faith they want, it's one of our founding principles in the US, but it doesn't make them any less of a scam.
And it's kind of hypocritical for someone of one religion to point the finger at another and say "they're crazy" they all are. Biggest scam on the planet.
just some are more widely accepted so you can point your finger and laugh at the others.
how did your 7 year old brother order something online in the mid-80s?
Sorry, on the phone. he also ordered gut buster, COD and we had to send that back too.
Quote:
it's a scam, and they tried to recruit my 7 year old brother who ordered Dianetics online with a COD payment in the mid-80's.
And also not to sound atheistic or offensive, but all religions are scams. People are of course entitled to have whatever faith they want, it's one of our founding principles in the US, but it doesn't make them any less of a scam.
And it's kind of hypocritical for someone of one religion to point the finger at another and say "they're crazy" they all are. Biggest scam on the planet.
just some are more widely accepted so you can point your finger and laugh at the others.
how did your 7 year old brother order something online in the mid-80s?
bahahahahahahahahaha
Putting Scientology aside for a moment - if I look at the churches and religious organizations in my area, whether they are Catholic, Presbyterian, Methodist, Baptist, etc. they all have an open book policy where the congregations understand what outlays are going to the pastors and what is going towards facility improvements, etc.
The organizations that do not follow this rule are non-denominational places - one of which has become a Mega church. There, the financials are controlled by a select few and no visibility is given, either to other church members or the public. That's when fingers can and should be pointed.
There are few crimes I deem more shitty than coercing or outright stealing from those seeking guidance. The worst part is that these places have protection to do exactly that.
With the other larger/more common religions there is a historical timeline where the stories can be traced through different religions & cultures. Same stories, different names type of deal to fit the narrative. Can't really do that with Scientology.
They will too. When my brother ordered Dianetics two men showed up to personally deliver it. When I told them he was 7 years old (I was 12) they were shocked and surprised, but still wanted to meet with him (and me), my mother intervened and they left very quickly after that.
Putting Scientology aside for a moment - if I look at the churches and religious organizations in my area, whether they are Catholic, Presbyterian, Methodist, Baptist, etc. they all have an open book policy where the congregations understand what outlays are going to the pastors and what is going towards facility improvements, etc.
The organizations that do not follow this rule are non-denominational places - one of which has become a Mega church. There, the financials are controlled by a select few and no visibility is given, either to other church members or the public. That's when fingers can and should be pointed.
There are few crimes I deem more shitty than coercing or outright stealing from those seeking guidance. The worst part is that these places have protection to do exactly that.
I have no disagreement there, and they're popping up here too in MA. and they don't meet in traditional churches, they have almost strip mall office like "churches".
People are easily duped, and are so super willing to believe in faith, a higher power, and fear death and the after life so much they are willing to accept a lot without evidence. I guess that's the whole point of faith.
They basically fire off question after question with little time for subject to think of thier answer. The question range from random and meaniless to very personal. Its apparently very intense and I think some who left Scientology still use this for therapy reasons. I can see how some can mistake it for a spiritual experience.
I'm 1/4 Scientologist. Not too shabby.
Keep in mind that in many Muslim countries around the world, huge majorities support the death penalty (not an exaggeration) for apostasy.
To say nothing of (what they view as) blasphemy & slander...as Salman Rushdie could attest.
Mafia-esquire intimidation akin to - let's face it, worse than - anything Scientology does.
I agree. Given enough time any strange practice can become tradition and sacred.
I gotta say though. Even though, IMO all theology is stupid, Almost all of the mainstream relgions today have benefitted society in some ways over the years. They all have similar moral codes to live by, provide valuable life lessons, helped bring peace and balance to many lives. Plus there is all the charities, orphanages, recording of histories and philosophies these relgions have provided.
The only thing Scientology has ever given us is Battlefield Earth.
What ever happened there? I can't remember if there was a final chapter to all that.
I think what is stupid is using theology to craft and enforce social mores, and that's pretty much what all religions do.
We shouldn't commit adultery out of decency, not because there were supposedly stone tablets saying not to. My issue is that instead of people using common sense to dictate behavior, they are often influenced or guilted into behaviors that have been translated, mutated and misinterpreted from centuries ago.
I feel like I fall into a gray area where I have faith, but no beholdance to religion. I believe in a higher power and am very curious how our origins came about and if there's an afterlife, but I have utter disdain for anyone trying to dictate what my beliefs or behaviors should be. Part of being a human is having the ability to think for oneself and make my own decisions.
At its best - organized religion acts as a support structure for those who can't lead their own way. At its worst, religion is a vehicle (and a protected one at that) to bilk people out of money, brainwash their thinking and control their actions. All organized religions do this in some form.
As to general criticisms of religion vs. Scientology, I'm hard pressed to think of an organized religion that requires cutting off contact with non-believers. And I won't call Scientology a religion, it's a cult created by a whackadoodle to make money while he avoided taxes.
But:
Beezer : 10:50 am : link : reply
years ago you had mentioned your then-neighborhood (may have moved?) was being "bought up" by a "religious organization/cult."
What ever happened there? I can't remember if there was a final chapter to all that.
It still exists and to this day the old PTL tower still stands in its crumbling mess. The organization that took it over is called Morningstar Ministries, led by a guy named Rick Joyner, who has started at least two other organizations considered cults by a lot of people. They used to have a program called "Faith Warriors" where young adults would pay thousands of dollars to come learn how to "fight evil". what they were doing was collecting $25K a year and putting them in residential homes in my area. Homes that had been modified sometimes to accommodate up to 35 people with extra rooms being added. The County Zoning Board stepped in and after a couple of years, the program was gone, but the ministry is still there and preaches Prosperity Gospel - basically, what you give to the Church will be returned to you 100 fold. We've since moved from that neighborhood
But my area is an epicenter of this. We have an organization - Elevation Church who has a pastor, Steven Furtick who may be the fastest growing minister in the non-denominational world right now. He's created a Megachurch, and has recently teamed up with 5 other similar pastors in SC and NC to serve on each others boards and share wealth. A recent investigation looked into his $1.7M home. A "gift from God he calls it". We have several venues for the Inspiration Network here, another organization where the founder of the "City of Light" has a $2.2M home.
Fraud is rampant and yet there's absolutely nothing that can be done about it.
Gift From God My Ass - ( New Window )
Hello! My name is Elder Price and I would like to share with you the most amazing book.
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They're all nuts.
I agree. Given enough time any strange practice can become tradition and sacred.
I gotta say though. Even though, IMO all theology is stupid, Almost all of the mainstream relgions today have benefitted society in some ways over the years. They all have similar moral codes to live by, provide valuable life lessons, helped bring peace and balance to many lives. Plus there is all the charities, orphanages, recording of histories and philosophies these relgions have provided.
The only thing Scientology has ever given us is Battlefield Earth.
I don't know about bringing peace. More people have probably been killed in the name of religion than any other cause.
I think what is stupid is using theology to craft and enforce social mores, and that's pretty much what all religions do.
We shouldn't commit adultery out of decency, not because there were supposedly stone tablets saying not to. My issue is that instead of people using common sense to dictate behavior, they are often influenced or guilted into behaviors that have been translated, mutated and misinterpreted from centuries ago.
I feel like I fall into a gray area where I have faith, but no beholdance to religion. I believe in a higher power and am very curious how our origins came about and if there's an afterlife, but I have utter disdain for anyone trying to dictate what my beliefs or behaviors should be. Part of being a human is having the ability to think for oneself and make my own decisions.
At its best - organized religion acts as a support structure for those who can't lead their own way. At its worst, religion is a vehicle (and a protected one at that) to bilk people out of money, brainwash their thinking and control their actions. All organized religions do this in some form.
I agree. I believe in a god or higher power, but don't think any can know the nature of god is or what it wants from us - if anything. That why I think Theology is stupid. That and the fact that it creates wars between peoples who pretty much believe in the same morals anyway.
I get that theology helped to ingrain these morals into barbaric, tribal peoples in ancient and mideivel times. People at those times weren't going to work to build a better society unless they thought it would grant them ever lasting peace after they died. But now we know the benifits of a peaceful society, so I still believe thelogy is stupid.
The true value of religions are the lessons they teach us. Judaism's symbolisms and philosophies, Jesus's sermons and Christianities 7 virtues and deadly sins, Islams Five Pillars, Buddhism's meditations. All have made life a little better where they were taught.
Scientology's lesson is - abandon your family and pay us money then maybe you can be happy.
Not gonna further name names of more mainstream politicians given the safe space Eric has created for the needy among us, but it's a given that politicians flat lie about how religious they are either to directly exploit the credulous or merely not to create a controversy over not being a believer. Sorry, "controversy".
More people should come out about their secularism so it is fully normalized & accepted (I say the same about marijuana smokers, but I digress...) just as gay marriage was. When a former bigot discovers it's not just some "queers on Castro" fucking each other, but your neighbor and your mailman and your kid's teacher, the other factor summarily dissipates.
It's happening anyway as millienials age but it would be nice to see it fast-tracked so we can fully transcend medieval dead weight upon our country.
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In comment 13553701 Go Terps said:
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They're all nuts.
I agree. Given enough time any strange practice can become tradition and sacred.
I gotta say though. Even though, IMO all theology is stupid, Almost all of the mainstream relgions today have benefitted society in some ways over the years. They all have similar moral codes to live by, provide valuable life lessons, helped bring peace and balance to many lives. Plus there is all the charities, orphanages, recording of histories and philosophies these relgions have provided.
The only thing Scientology has ever given us is Battlefield Earth.
I don't know about bringing peace. More people have probably been killed in the name of religion than any other cause.
I'm personally in a similar place to Fat Man. No religion to defend here. But your statement is patently false, though oft-repeated. Unless you include just about any ideology within religion.
Seriously drawing that line?
There's pretty much little to no difference. You're calling out a religion/cult.
Truth. It's just that Scientology is newer than the other more ingrained relations. Guy walks on water and turns water into wine? Cool. Volcano turns aliens into humans? Weird and laughable.
Religion is a joke.
ThatLimerickGuy : 11:49 am : link : reply
That scientology is basically just a very well planned out tax evasion scam.
With the other larger/more common religions there is a historical timeline where the stories can be traced through different religions & cultures. Same stories, different names type of deal to fit the narrative. Can't really do that with Scientology.
Lol.
+1
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That scientology is basically just a very well planned out tax evasion scam.
+1
They all are.
The book/ documentary by Lawrence Wright 'going clear' is also a must watch, and it inspired Leah to come out
No way. Territory, natural resources, and wealth is what really gets people killed en masse.
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"Doesn't sound crazy" litmus test.
Truth. It's just that Scientology is newer than the other more ingrained relations. Guy walks on water and turns water into wine? Cool. Volcano turns aliens into humans? Weird and laughable.
Religion is a joke.
Right, or part the red sea, split the moon or leave lotus flowers in your footsteps. Every religion has some basis in supernatural stuff that is probably the product of tall tales and people's imaginations taking root and being treated as facts.
So, sure. Make fun of Scientologists. But if you go to church or synagogue for services, you probably shouldn't feel too smug. :)
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In comment 13553795 ThatLimerickGuy said:
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That scientology is basically just a very well planned out tax evasion scam.
+1
They all are.
My religion predates the U.S. tax code by doezens, if not thousands, of years.
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Deej ... Really?
Seriously drawing that line?
There's pretty much little to no difference. You're calling out a religion/cult.
Well. All right.
I agree most religions require a leap of faith, but scams, don t agree with that.
My religion predates the U.S. tax code by doezens, if not thousands, of years.
Taxes, control and power.
I agree most religions require a leap of faith, but scams, don t agree with that.
Well, no more than one religion is correct. So a lot of people preaching the truth are in fact not telling the truth.
It's gonna be funny when we find out that Zoroastrianism was right all along. Or some 18-person tribe in Papua New Guinea nailed it.
Just a sea of Godlessness on this thread. You people are delightful.
...
I agree most religions require a leap of faith, but scams, don t agree with that.
I don't mean to be offensive, I know people are fervent about their religions so I don't mean to demean them. Any of them and I'd never suggest people should not be free to pursue any religion they'd like.
but yes, I think they are all scams.
back to medieval times and before, it's all been a scam.
and I'm 100% not trying to influence people to live any differently. Have faith if that's your prerogative. It's important for people to believe that after they die they go to a better place. Or sometimes even comforting after losing a loved one to believe that they're in a better place.
That's the leap of faith part and I would never be pompous enough to suggest people should not be free to follow whatever faith they feel is right for them, but the money part, the common theme in almost every religion, is the scam and besides the money I find them to be hypocritical in most cases too, but that's another story.
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theology is stupid. I think there should be a natural curiosity of where we originated and where we are going.
I think what is stupid is using theology to craft and enforce social mores, and that's pretty much what all religions do.
We shouldn't commit adultery out of decency, not because there were supposedly stone tablets saying not to. My issue is that instead of people using common sense to dictate behavior, they are often influenced or guilted into behaviors that have been translated, mutated and misinterpreted from centuries ago.
I feel like I fall into a gray area where I have faith, but no beholdance to religion. I believe in a higher power and am very curious how our origins came about and if there's an afterlife, but I have utter disdain for anyone trying to dictate what my beliefs or behaviors should be. Part of being a human is having the ability to think for oneself and make my own decisions.
At its best - organized religion acts as a support structure for those who can't lead their own way. At its worst, religion is a vehicle (and a protected one at that) to bilk people out of money, brainwash their thinking and control their actions. All organized religions do this in some form.
I agree. I believe in a god or higher power, but don't think any can know the nature of god is or what it wants from us - if anything. That why I think Theology is stupid. That and the fact that it creates wars between peoples who pretty much believe in the same morals anyway.
I get that theology helped to ingrain these morals into barbaric, tribal peoples in ancient and mideivel times. People at those times weren't going to work to build a better society unless they thought it would grant them ever lasting peace after they died. But now we know the benifits of a peaceful society, so I still believe thelogy is stupid.
The true value of religions are the lessons they teach us. Judaism's symbolisms and philosophies, Jesus's sermons and Christianities 7 virtues and deadly sins, Islams Five Pillars, Buddhism's meditations. All have made life a little better where they were taught.
Scientology's lesson is - abandon your family and pay us money then maybe you can be happy.
This sounds very much like the screed that a person who doesn't believe cannot be a moral/ethical person. Absolute horseshit, of course, but it's a very common view, even among those professing to be Atheists.
Just a sea of Godlessness on this thread. You people are delightful.
Yes, because godfearing folks NEVER do anything bad
In other words: I was joking.
Just a sea of Godlessness on this thread. You people are delightful.
Where do I sign up?
The organizations that do not follow this rule are non-denominational places - one of which has become a Mega church. There, the financials are controlled by a select few and no visibility is given, either to other church members or the public. That's when fingers can and should be pointed.
I go to a non denominational church. It isn't what you described above at all. It's considered a mega church, but it doesn't fit the criteria above
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"Doesn't sound crazy" litmus test.
Truth. It's just that Scientology is newer than the other more ingrained relations. Guy walks on water and turns water into wine? Cool. Volcano turns aliens into humans? Weird and laughable.
Religion is a joke.
A joke? More like.....science fiction :)
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The organizations that do not follow this rule are non-denominational places - one of which has become a Mega church. There, the financials are controlled by a select few and no visibility is given, either to other church members or the public. That's when fingers can and should be pointed.
I go to a non denominational church. It isn't what you described above at all. It's considered a mega church, but it doesn't fit the criteria above
Same here. Church finances are controlled by a non-paid group of church members, and are available on the website for anyone to see.
While we arent a megachurch, we are a multi-campus chuch with several thousand members.
The HBO special on Scientology was great. Paul Haggis was particularly interesting. He described how when one gets to the highest level of the church, having spent millions to attain the highest level, they finally let you in on the big L. Ron Hubbard secret. It involves the whole alien scenario, with Xenu and depositing souls into Earthly volcanoes, etc.
His reactions was "Are you fucking kidding me? This is the payoff?!"
It was really eye opening, and amazing to hear a high profile guy admit he'd been duped.
South Park did a good job explaining it. Same with Mormonism
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More people have probably been killed in the name of religion than any other cause.
No way. Territory, natural resources, and wealth is what really gets people killed en masse.
Yeah. They have to stretch "religion" to tuck in Hitler, Stalin & Mao, which just doesn't fly imho.
It was also the case of a couple in Upstate SC too. and probably not coincidentally, the one in Anderson, SC has joined forces with one in Charlotte so that each pastor serves on the other's board.
As Friends with Benefits
It was also the case of a couple in Upstate SC too. and probably not coincidentally, the one in Anderson, SC has joined forces with one in Charlotte so that each pastor serves on the other's board.
As Friends with Benefits
I understand, but I wanted to chime in with my experience is all.
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In comment 13553756 Go Terps said:
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More people have probably been killed in the name of religion than any other cause.
No way. Territory, natural resources, and wealth is what really gets people killed en masse.
Yeah. They have to stretch "religion" to tuck in Hitler, Stalin & Mao, which just doesn't fly imho.
Hitler didn't commit genocide on 6M jews because of their religion?
that's a stretch to say that?
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In comment 13553823 Mr. Bungle said:
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In comment 13553756 Go Terps said:
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More people have probably been killed in the name of religion than any other cause.
No way. Territory, natural resources, and wealth is what really gets people killed en masse.
Yeah. They have to stretch "religion" to tuck in Hitler, Stalin & Mao, which just doesn't fly imho.
Hitler didn't commit genocide on 6M jews because of their religion?
that's a stretch to say that?
1. Hitler did not do that on behalf of a religion.
2. He also was responsible for the deaths of anywhere from 40 to 60 million gentiles/athiests. Besides his anti-Semitism, it was also a war of expansion. Territory. And Stalin and Mao are good for another 40 or 50 million.
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In comment 13553946 njm said:
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In comment 13553823 Mr. Bungle said:
Quote:
In comment 13553756 Go Terps said:
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More people have probably been killed in the name of religion than any other cause.
No way. Territory, natural resources, and wealth is what really gets people killed en masse.
Yeah. They have to stretch "religion" to tuck in Hitler, Stalin & Mao, which just doesn't fly imho.
Hitler didn't commit genocide on 6M jews because of their religion?
that's a stretch to say that?
1. Hitler did not do that on behalf of a religion.
2. He also was responsible for the deaths of anywhere from 40 to 60 million gentiles/athiests. Besides his anti-Semitism, it was also a war of expansion. Territory. And Stalin and Mao are good for another 40 or 50 million.
Hitler exterminated the jews because of their religion, not necessarily on behalf of one, I don't think when the statement was made that more people have been killed in the name of religion it wasn't made in either context.
look up the definition of genocide and then try and argue that the 6M jews killed during the holocaust weren't because of religion.
You can call BS on me if you want, but this legit happened 2 years ago:
My son, then a senior in high school, was playing football. There was a few minutes left in the game and his team was running out the clock. He was the trusted RB for this type of situation.
Anyways, he went down with a leg injury, an obvious clean break jusy above the ankle. Two kids on his team threw up on the field, one ran for the ambulance, one - who's Mom was a Dr ran to the crowd and yelled to his Mom - "Mom, its Tim! His leg is snapped! Its disgusting!"
By the time my wife and I got to the sideline, they had him loaded in the ambulance. There was a Dr with the ambulance crew that told us his leg was broken. The coach came over, with the game still going on, to talk to us. He said he saw the whole thing and was pretty shook. He was hoping Tim would be OK for baseball season, which was 6 months away.
From the time he went down with the injury, until we got to the hospital, I prayed.
When he got to the hospital they gave him morphine and took him right in to get XRays. When he got back to the room, I looked at his leg, and it didnt look too bad. Perhaps a little swolen.
Anyways, the Dr came in with the Xrays and told us there was no break. I asked him if he could have a radiologist check, because 5 people and my son himself told me they saw his leg bent at 90 degrees in a place where that waw not possible. He said that wasnt necessary, and sent him home. The next day I took him to the local sports medicine location, which is open on the weekend for sports injuries. They couldnt find a break either and said maybe it was sprained.
He wasnt in much pain, and by Wedesday was back at football practice. He played in the next game, and the rest of the year.
Is there a reasonable explanation for this? We give credit to our God. Is that foolish? Were all the people who saw his injury up close, including a Dr, wrong or does he have magic bones?
At the end of the year football banquet, the coach gave him a special award for "toughness", because in his words he was just hoping Tim would be able to walk again after seeing his injury, much less play in the next game.
You can call BS on me if you want, but this legit happened 2 years ago:
My son, then a senior in high school, was playing football. There was a few minutes left in the game and his team was running out the clock. He was the trusted RB for this type of situation.
Anyways, he went down with a leg injury, an obvious clean break jusy above the ankle. Two kids on his team threw up on the field, one ran for the ambulance, one - who's Mom was a Dr ran to the crowd and yelled to his Mom - "Mom, its Tim! His leg is snapped! Its disgusting!"
By the time my wife and I got to the sideline, they had him loaded in the ambulance. There was a Dr with the ambulance crew that told us his leg was broken. The coach came over, with the game still going on, to talk to us. He said he saw the whole thing and was pretty shook. He was hoping Tim would be OK for baseball season, which was 6 months away.
From the time he went down with the injury, until we got to the hospital, I prayed.
When he got to the hospital they gave him morphine and took him right in to get XRays. When he got back to the room, I looked at his leg, and it didnt look too bad. Perhaps a little swolen.
Anyways, the Dr came in with the Xrays and told us there was no break. I asked him if he could have a radiologist check, because 5 people and my son himself told me they saw his leg bent at 90 degrees in a place where that waw not possible. He said that wasnt necessary, and sent him home. The next day I took him to the local sports medicine location, which is open on the weekend for sports injuries. They couldnt find a break either and said maybe it was sprained.
He wasnt in much pain, and by Wedesday was back at football practice. He played in the next game, and the rest of the year.
Is there a reasonable explanation for this? We give credit to our God. Is that foolish? Were all the people who saw his injury up close, including a Dr, wrong or does he have magic bones?
At the end of the year football banquet, the coach gave him a special award for "toughness", because in his words he was just hoping Tim would be able to walk again after seeing his injury, much less play in the next game.
Because you didn't understand how or why something happened is not evidence of an intervention by a God.
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BS, mind over matter?
You can call BS on me if you want, but this legit happened 2 years ago:
My son, then a senior in high school, was playing football. There was a few minutes left in the game and his team was running out the clock. He was the trusted RB for this type of situation.
Anyways, he went down with a leg injury, an obvious clean break jusy above the ankle. Two kids on his team threw up on the field, one ran for the ambulance, one - who's Mom was a Dr ran to the crowd and yelled to his Mom - "Mom, its Tim! His leg is snapped! Its disgusting!"
By the time my wife and I got to the sideline, they had him loaded in the ambulance. There was a Dr with the ambulance crew that told us his leg was broken. The coach came over, with the game still going on, to talk to us. He said he saw the whole thing and was pretty shook. He was hoping Tim would be OK for baseball season, which was 6 months away.
From the time he went down with the injury, until we got to the hospital, I prayed.
When he got to the hospital they gave him morphine and took him right in to get XRays. When he got back to the room, I looked at his leg, and it didnt look too bad. Perhaps a little swolen.
Anyways, the Dr came in with the Xrays and told us there was no break. I asked him if he could have a radiologist check, because 5 people and my son himself told me they saw his leg bent at 90 degrees in a place where that waw not possible. He said that wasnt necessary, and sent him home. The next day I took him to the local sports medicine location, which is open on the weekend for sports injuries. They couldnt find a break either and said maybe it was sprained.
He wasnt in much pain, and by Wedesday was back at football practice. He played in the next game, and the rest of the year.
Is there a reasonable explanation for this? We give credit to our God. Is that foolish? Were all the people who saw his injury up close, including a Dr, wrong or does he have magic bones?
At the end of the year football banquet, the coach gave him a special award for "toughness", because in his words he was just hoping Tim would be able to walk again after seeing his injury, much less play in the next game.
Because you didn't understand how or why something happened is not evidence of an intervention by a God.
True. But do you have an alternate explanation?
More people have probably been killed in the name of religion than any other cause.
No way. Territory, natural resources, and wealth is what really gets people killed en masse.
Yeah. They have to stretch "religion" to tuck in Hitler, Stalin & Mao, which just doesn't fly imho.
Hitler didn't commit genocide on 6M jews because of their religion?
that's a stretch to say that?
1. Hitler did not do that on behalf of a religion.
2. He also was responsible for the deaths of anywhere from 40 to 60 million gentiles/athiests. Besides his anti-Semitism, it was also a war of expansion. Territory. And Stalin and Mao are good for another 40 or 50 million.
Hitler exterminated the jews because of their religion, not necessarily on behalf of one, I don't think when the statement was made that more people have been killed in the name of religion it wasn't made in either context.
look up the definition of genocide and then try and argue that the 6M jews killed during the holocaust weren't because of religion.
I believe the statement WAS made in that context. But even assuming, arguendo, that that was the case, 6 million killed for religious reasons vs. the other 90-100 million killed by those 3 does not make religion responsible for more deaths than any other cause.
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In comment 13553989 Eli Wilson said:
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BS, mind over matter?
You can call BS on me if you want, but this legit happened 2 years ago:
My son, then a senior in high school, was playing football. There was a few minutes left in the game and his team was running out the clock. He was the trusted RB for this type of situation.
Anyways, he went down with a leg injury, an obvious clean break jusy above the ankle. Two kids on his team threw up on the field, one ran for the ambulance, one - who's Mom was a Dr ran to the crowd and yelled to his Mom - "Mom, its Tim! His leg is snapped! Its disgusting!"
By the time my wife and I got to the sideline, they had him loaded in the ambulance. There was a Dr with the ambulance crew that told us his leg was broken. The coach came over, with the game still going on, to talk to us. He said he saw the whole thing and was pretty shook. He was hoping Tim would be OK for baseball season, which was 6 months away.
From the time he went down with the injury, until we got to the hospital, I prayed.
When he got to the hospital they gave him morphine and took him right in to get XRays. When he got back to the room, I looked at his leg, and it didnt look too bad. Perhaps a little swolen.
Anyways, the Dr came in with the Xrays and told us there was no break. I asked him if he could have a radiologist check, because 5 people and my son himself told me they saw his leg bent at 90 degrees in a place where that waw not possible. He said that wasnt necessary, and sent him home. The next day I took him to the local sports medicine location, which is open on the weekend for sports injuries. They couldnt find a break either and said maybe it was sprained.
He wasnt in much pain, and by Wedesday was back at football practice. He played in the next game, and the rest of the year.
Is there a reasonable explanation for this? We give credit to our God. Is that foolish? Were all the people who saw his injury up close, including a Dr, wrong or does he have magic bones?
At the end of the year football banquet, the coach gave him a special award for "toughness", because in his words he was just hoping Tim would be able to walk again after seeing his injury, much less play in the next game.
Because you didn't understand how or why something happened is not evidence of an intervention by a God.
True. But do you have an alternate explanation?
He had a bad sprain and everyone at the field, relying on their eyes, overreacted. Sterling Shepard had a bad sprain earlier this week and there was concern he might be out for a long time. He practiced today. Did God heal him too?
You can call BS on me if you want, but this legit happened 2 years ago:
My son, then a senior in high school, was playing football. There was a few minutes left in the game and his team was running out the clock. He was the trusted RB for this type of situation.
Anyways, he went down with a leg injury, an obvious clean break jusy above the ankle. Two kids on his team threw up on the field, one ran for the ambulance, one - who's Mom was a Dr ran to the crowd and yelled to his Mom - "Mom, its Tim! His leg is snapped! Its disgusting!"
By the time my wife and I got to the sideline, they had him loaded in the ambulance. There was a Dr with the ambulance crew that told us his leg was broken. The coach came over, with the game still going on, to talk to us. He said he saw the whole thing and was pretty shook. He was hoping Tim would be OK for baseball season, which was 6 months away.
From the time he went down with the injury, until we got to the hospital, I prayed.
When he got to the hospital they gave him morphine and took him right in to get XRays. When he got back to the room, I looked at his leg, and it didnt look too bad. Perhaps a little swolen.
Anyways, the Dr came in with the Xrays and told us there was no break. I asked him if he could have a radiologist check, because 5 people and my son himself told me they saw his leg bent at 90 degrees in a place where that waw not possible. He said that wasnt necessary, and sent him home. The next day I took him to the local sports medicine location, which is open on the weekend for sports injuries. They couldnt find a break either and said maybe it was sprained.
He wasnt in much pain, and by Wedesday was back at football practice. He played in the next game, and the rest of the year.
Is there a reasonable explanation for this? We give credit to our God. Is that foolish? Were all the people who saw his injury up close, including a Dr, wrong or does he have magic bones?
At the end of the year football banquet, the coach gave him a special award for "toughness", because in his words he was just hoping Tim would be able to walk again after seeing his injury, much less play in the next game.
No matter what i say it's going to sound douchy and I don't mean it that way.
If giving credit to god for healing your son's seemingly broken leg, then I'm happy for your comfort.
By guess would be not god or your prayers, but more likely a medical or scientific explanation, like the leg wasn't broken and the teammates and coach and ambulance driver overreacted (pure guess on my part) or simply were wrong.
But I don't dissuade you at all from believing what you feel in your heart happened.
in the grand scheme of things with all the tragedies that continually go on day in day out murders, rapes, starvation, death, cancer, kidnaps, torture, homelessness, etc. to believe that god would spend time to simply unbreak a broken leg in a teenager that really had no significant consequence other than to your son's next football game and maybe his baseball season really seems kind of trivial though, doesn't it?
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More people have probably been killed in the name of religion than any other cause.
No way. Territory, natural resources, and wealth is what really gets people killed en masse.
Yeah. They have to stretch "religion" to tuck in Hitler, Stalin & Mao, which just doesn't fly imho.
Hitler didn't commit genocide on 6M jews because of their religion?
that's a stretch to say that?
1. Hitler did not do that on behalf of a religion.
2. He also was responsible for the deaths of anywhere from 40 to 60 million gentiles/athiests. Besides his anti-Semitism, it was also a war of expansion. Territory. And Stalin and Mao are good for another 40 or 50 million.
Hitler exterminated the jews because of their religion, not necessarily on behalf of one, I don't think when the statement was made that more people have been killed in the name of religion it wasn't made in either context.
look up the definition of genocide and then try and argue that the 6M jews killed during the holocaust weren't because of religion.
I believe the statement WAS made in that context. But even assuming, arguendo, that that was the case, 6 million killed for religious reasons vs. the other 90-100 million killed by those 3 does not make religion responsible for more deaths than any other cause.
No argument there, simply saying with Hitler IMO you don't need to stretch anything to say he killed people because of their religion, i.e., religion was the underlying reasons for 6M deaths on Hitler's watch.
The issue is when organized religion interferes adversely not only with the lives of private individuals but in the government.
I'm going off on a tangent but let's not pretend that the clergy and the institution itself is not a money-making industry selling an invisible product. The irony of course is that the so-called "founders" and key figures of many of these religions preached living in a simple, modest way and that money was the root of all evil. But many religions have become bastardized over time. Hell, we're still in an era of selling indulgences.
Why did primitive people have rain gods, sun gods, etc? why did mythology take hold? All because of unexplained events.
I have no clue about healing, except to note that the preacher at Morningstar ministries (Rick Joyner) has sold his congregation on the fact that the power of prayer can regrow limbs. So thinking a leg isn't really broken because of the belief it was, especially when it is somebody as close as a family member really doesn't shock me that it has to be only due to divine intervention, and a good divinity too.
Nobody takes the slant that the Devil did it so your Son will be a better worker in Hell - because well, that's a different can of worms.
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BS, mind over matter?
You can call BS on me if you want, but this legit happened 2 years ago:
My son, then a senior in high school, was playing football. There was a few minutes left in the game and his team was running out the clock. He was the trusted RB for this type of situation.
Anyways, he went down with a leg injury, an obvious clean break jusy above the ankle. Two kids on his team threw up on the field, one ran for the ambulance, one - who's Mom was a Dr ran to the crowd and yelled to his Mom - "Mom, its Tim! His leg is snapped! Its disgusting!"
By the time my wife and I got to the sideline, they had him loaded in the ambulance. There was a Dr with the ambulance crew that told us his leg was broken. The coach came over, with the game still going on, to talk to us. He said he saw the whole thing and was pretty shook. He was hoping Tim would be OK for baseball season, which was 6 months away.
From the time he went down with the injury, until we got to the hospital, I prayed.
When he got to the hospital they gave him morphine and took him right in to get XRays. When he got back to the room, I looked at his leg, and it didnt look too bad. Perhaps a little swolen.
Anyways, the Dr came in with the Xrays and told us there was no break. I asked him if he could have a radiologist check, because 5 people and my son himself told me they saw his leg bent at 90 degrees in a place where that waw not possible. He said that wasnt necessary, and sent him home. The next day I took him to the local sports medicine location, which is open on the weekend for sports injuries. They couldnt find a break either and said maybe it was sprained.
He wasnt in much pain, and by Wedesday was back at football practice. He played in the next game, and the rest of the year.
Is there a reasonable explanation for this? We give credit to our God. Is that foolish? Were all the people who saw his injury up close, including a Dr, wrong or does he have magic bones?
At the end of the year football banquet, the coach gave him a special award for "toughness", because in his words he was just hoping Tim would be able to walk again after seeing his injury, much less play in the next game.
No matter what i say it's going to sound douchy and I don't mean it that way.
If giving credit to god for healing your son's seemingly broken leg, then I'm happy for your comfort.
By guess would be not god or your prayers, but more likely a medical or scientific explanation, like the leg wasn't broken and the teammates and coach and ambulance driver overreacted (pure guess on my part) or simply were wrong.
But I don't dissuade you at all from believing what you feel in your heart happened.
in the grand scheme of things with all the tragedies that continually go on day in day out murders, rapes, starvation, death, cancer, kidnaps, torture, homelessness, etc. to believe that god would spend time to simply unbreak a broken leg in a teenager that really had no significant consequence other than to your son's next football game and maybe his baseball season really seems kind of trivial though, doesn't it?
Look, we live in an evil world and bad shit happens everywhere.
I believe in God that allows all of us to have free will. You want to not belive, thats cool. No skin off my knee.
Im just relaying a personal experience.
So the God that heals a broken leg let's bad shit go on elsewhere and frequently?
I hear about having "free will" a lot. So does God intervene (sort of negating free will) or does he not? Does God have some formula on what bad shit to let happen and what to clamp down on?
This is the reason I find things to be very hypocritical Perhaps that is a poor word. Illogcial is a better one.
You believe god cured your son's broken leg in miraculous fashion. and I'm not discouraging that belief one bit.
I do not believe that is what happened so we can agree to disagree.
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In comment 13553991 Heisenberg said:
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In comment 13553989 Eli Wilson said:
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BS, mind over matter?
You can call BS on me if you want, but this legit happened 2 years ago:
My son, then a senior in high school, was playing football. There was a few minutes left in the game and his team was running out the clock. He was the trusted RB for this type of situation.
Anyways, he went down with a leg injury, an obvious clean break jusy above the ankle. Two kids on his team threw up on the field, one ran for the ambulance, one - who's Mom was a Dr ran to the crowd and yelled to his Mom - "Mom, its Tim! His leg is snapped! Its disgusting!"
By the time my wife and I got to the sideline, they had him loaded in the ambulance. There was a Dr with the ambulance crew that told us his leg was broken. The coach came over, with the game still going on, to talk to us. He said he saw the whole thing and was pretty shook. He was hoping Tim would be OK for baseball season, which was 6 months away.
From the time he went down with the injury, until we got to the hospital, I prayed.
When he got to the hospital they gave him morphine and took him right in to get XRays. When he got back to the room, I looked at his leg, and it didnt look too bad. Perhaps a little swolen.
Anyways, the Dr came in with the Xrays and told us there was no break. I asked him if he could have a radiologist check, because 5 people and my son himself told me they saw his leg bent at 90 degrees in a place where that waw not possible. He said that wasnt necessary, and sent him home. The next day I took him to the local sports medicine location, which is open on the weekend for sports injuries. They couldnt find a break either and said maybe it was sprained.
He wasnt in much pain, and by Wedesday was back at football practice. He played in the next game, and the rest of the year.
Is there a reasonable explanation for this? We give credit to our God. Is that foolish? Were all the people who saw his injury up close, including a Dr, wrong or does he have magic bones?
At the end of the year football banquet, the coach gave him a special award for "toughness", because in his words he was just hoping Tim would be able to walk again after seeing his injury, much less play in the next game.
Because you didn't understand how or why something happened is not evidence of an intervention by a God.
True. But do you have an alternate explanation?
He had a bad sprain and everyone at the field, relying on their eyes, overreacted. Sterling Shepard had a bad sprain earlier this week and there was concern he might be out for a long time. He practiced today. Did God heal him too?
Based on his Instagram post the next day I'm going with yes, but honestly I haven't asked him.
You believe god cured your son's broken leg in miraculous fashion. and I'm not discouraging that belief one bit.
I do not believe that is what happened so we can agree to disagree.
Not offended at all. I have no problem with anyone choosing to believe or not believe what they want.
No idea. Does it really matter? I could care less. If his leg remained broken and he needed surgery would that have changed my beliefs? No.
Like I said bad shit happens everywhere.
LOL
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No idea. Does it really matter? I could care less. If his leg remained broken and he needed surgery would that have changed my beliefs? No.
Like I said bad shit happens everywhere.
Exactly, you are solid in your beliefs. That's totally cool with me. It's just then that I'd like to offer the viewpoint that your story is not evidence of God at all but rather a way that you found affirmation of your beliefs. So, I'm happy the kid's ankle was ok and that your beliefs were affirmed but the story is not evidence of anything. If you had x rays that that were broken and then xrays the next day that were healed, well now you're onto something but that literally never happens.
Isn't that the same as going to confession?
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In comment 13554042 Heisenberg said:
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.
No idea. Does it really matter? I could care less. If his leg remained broken and he needed surgery would that have changed my beliefs? No.
Like I said bad shit happens everywhere.
Exactly, you are solid in your beliefs. That's totally cool with me. It's just then that I'd like to offer the viewpoint that your story is not evidence of God at all but rather a way that you found affirmation of your beliefs. So, I'm happy the kid's ankle was ok and that your beliefs were affirmed but the story is not evidence of anything. If you had x rays that that were broken and then xrays the next day that were healed, well now you're onto something but that literally never happens.
Just curious... How can you be certain that it literally never happens?
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In comment 13554062 Eli Wilson said:
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In comment 13554042 Heisenberg said:
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.
No idea. Does it really matter? I could care less. If his leg remained broken and he needed surgery would that have changed my beliefs? No.
Like I said bad shit happens everywhere.
Exactly, you are solid in your beliefs. That's totally cool with me. It's just then that I'd like to offer the viewpoint that your story is not evidence of God at all but rather a way that you found affirmation of your beliefs. So, I'm happy the kid's ankle was ok and that your beliefs were affirmed but the story is not evidence of anything. If you had x rays that that were broken and then xrays the next day that were healed, well now you're onto something but that literally never happens.
Just curious... How can you be certain that it literally never happens?
Well, as that would bring into question everything we have learned in the past couple thousand years about bones, healing and the human body, I'd suspect it would be a big deal.
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Look, we live in an evil world and bad shit happens everywhere.
So the God that heals a broken leg let's bad shit go on elsewhere and frequently?
I hear about having "free will" a lot. So does God intervene (sort of negating free will) or does he not? Does God have some formula on what bad shit to let happen and what to clamp down on?
This is the reason I find things to be very hypocritical Perhaps that is a poor word. Illogcial is a better one.
FMIC Believing in something you can't see which has great power to do all things, knows all is illogical. Faith never rests or has rested on logic. I can't fully explain why after nearly thirty years of not seeking a relationship with God or even knowing if I believed in God to then seek God out in a faith (faith) I wasn't crazy about to begin with. I suppose I could have some mental defect or lack vision, but if it were that simple I would have just stayed put in my old ways.
As for free will, I can't pretend to explain something I don't truly understand, but I have leaned to trust God and I'll leave it at that
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In comment 13554074 Heisenberg said:
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In comment 13554062 Eli Wilson said:
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In comment 13554042 Heisenberg said:
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.
No idea. Does it really matter? I could care less. If his leg remained broken and he needed surgery would that have changed my beliefs? No.
Like I said bad shit happens everywhere.
Exactly, you are solid in your beliefs. That's totally cool with me. It's just then that I'd like to offer the viewpoint that your story is not evidence of God at all but rather a way that you found affirmation of your beliefs. So, I'm happy the kid's ankle was ok and that your beliefs were affirmed but the story is not evidence of anything. If you had x rays that that were broken and then xrays the next day that were healed, well now you're onto something but that literally never happens.
Just curious... How can you be certain that it literally never happens?
Well, as that would bring into question everything we have learned in the past couple thousand years about bones, healing and the human body, I'd suspect it would be a big deal.
Well firstly, it wouldn't bring into question anything we know about bones, healing and the human body - because supposedly, the healing was supernatural.
What is your first assumption upon hearing a story like that? Most likely, that its some kind of hoax and you'd dismiss it and move on with your day. Most people would react the same way. So why would any main stream media source bother to run such a story? Their job is to keep your attention.
Accelerating, not the effect of a primal Big Bang.
Scientists can account for something less than a trillionth of the energy required to do this.
I'm not saying that is proof of God.
There is a profound limit to our scientific understanding.
Stay humble.
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In comment 13554084 Brown Recluse said:
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In comment 13554074 Heisenberg said:
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In comment 13554062 Eli Wilson said:
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In comment 13554042 Heisenberg said:
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.
No idea. Does it really matter? I could care less. If his leg remained broken and he needed surgery would that have changed my beliefs? No.
Like I said bad shit happens everywhere.
Exactly, you are solid in your beliefs. That's totally cool with me. It's just then that I'd like to offer the viewpoint that your story is not evidence of God at all but rather a way that you found affirmation of your beliefs. So, I'm happy the kid's ankle was ok and that your beliefs were affirmed but the story is not evidence of anything. If you had x rays that that were broken and then xrays the next day that were healed, well now you're onto something but that literally never happens.
Just curious... How can you be certain that it literally never happens?
Well, as that would bring into question everything we have learned in the past couple thousand years about bones, healing and the human body, I'd suspect it would be a big deal.
Well firstly, it wouldn't bring into question anything we know about bones, healing and the human body - because supposedly, the healing was supernatural.
What is your first assumption upon hearing a story like that? Most likely, that its some kind of hoax and you'd dismiss it and move on with your day. Most people would react the same way. So why would any main stream media source bother to run such a story? Their job is to keep your attention.
The scenario I referenced is confirmed xray broken leg bone one day, confirmed by xray healed leg bone the next. That would not be something easily dismissed. That would be news. That would be significant and people would study the circumstances that surrounded it and try to understand it. This would have evidence - the before and after xrays - that would need to be explained. That would be truly miraculous. In that case, God would be a possible solution. But this has never happened.
Eli Wilson's story of folks vomiting and running over to him saying a leg snapped and it turning out to not be snapped is altogether a different story. This one is pretty reasonable to dismiss as there's no evidence that anything other than a misdiagnosis on the field happened.
As for the "mainstream media", it's nice to write them off as not being interested. This would be huge news because it would shake the foundation of modern medicine. Lots of hoaxy stories make it into the mainstream media, and this would be a big one.
I've never seen anything like that happen but I wouldn't rule it out or say it never has. But then again I also believe there is a higher power, and that if that power can create an entire universe - surely it can heal a broken bone...though I don't know what grandiose purpose that would serve.
I can't say whether its happened or not, but I guess the bigger point I was making is that if it did - I think its logical to assume you won't hear about it from any reputable news outlet.
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In comment 13553807 RobCarpenter said:
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In comment 13553795 ThatLimerickGuy said:
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That scientology is basically just a very well planned out tax evasion scam.
+1
They all are.
My religion predates the U.S. tax code by doezens, if not thousands, of years.
Touché
I've never seen anything like that happen but I wouldn't rule it out or say it never has. But then again I also believe there is a higher power, and that if that power can create an entire universe - surely it can heal a broken bone...though I don't know what grandiose purpose that would serve.
I can't say whether its happened or not, but I guess the bigger point I was making is that if it did - I think its logical to assume you won't hear about it from any reputable news outlet.
Horseshit. The idea that it's logical to assume you wouldn't hear about something previously unheard of is not logical at all. The very definition of news is something that happens that is new. This would be new. To have evidence of a miracle would be news. The idea that an ER doc or orthopedic surgeon wouldn't be interested in a miraculous healing of a bone despite the fact that it defies all they learned in med school and after med school as they specialized in these things, utterly strains belief.
To blame the lack of hearing about miracles on the media a handy way to believe in unproven things because you can believe that the mainstream media is a cloud obscuring hidden truths. The fact is the reverse is true. Most people believe in a religion and actual evidence that miracles happen would be a huge fucking story.
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In comment 13553995 Eli Wilson said:
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In comment 13553991 Heisenberg said:
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In comment 13553989 Eli Wilson said:
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BS, mind over matter?
You can call BS on me if you want, but this legit happened 2 years ago:
My son, then a senior in high school, was playing football. There was a few minutes left in the game and his team was running out the clock. He was the trusted RB for this type of situation.
Anyways, he went down with a leg injury, an obvious clean break jusy above the ankle. Two kids on his team threw up on the field, one ran for the ambulance, one - who's Mom was a Dr ran to the crowd and yelled to his Mom - "Mom, its Tim! His leg is snapped! Its disgusting!"
By the time my wife and I got to the sideline, they had him loaded in the ambulance. There was a Dr with the ambulance crew that told us his leg was broken. The coach came over, with the game still going on, to talk to us. He said he saw the whole thing and was pretty shook. He was hoping Tim would be OK for baseball season, which was 6 months away.
From the time he went down with the injury, until we got to the hospital, I prayed.
When he got to the hospital they gave him morphine and took him right in to get XRays. When he got back to the room, I looked at his leg, and it didnt look too bad. Perhaps a little swolen.
Anyways, the Dr came in with the Xrays and told us there was no break. I asked him if he could have a radiologist check, because 5 people and my son himself told me they saw his leg bent at 90 degrees in a place where that waw not possible. He said that wasnt necessary, and sent him home. The next day I took him to the local sports medicine location, which is open on the weekend for sports injuries. They couldnt find a break either and said maybe it was sprained.
He wasnt in much pain, and by Wedesday was back at football practice. He played in the next game, and the rest of the year.
Is there a reasonable explanation for this? We give credit to our God. Is that foolish? Were all the people who saw his injury up close, including a Dr, wrong or does he have magic bones?
At the end of the year football banquet, the coach gave him a special award for "toughness", because in his words he was just hoping Tim would be able to walk again after seeing his injury, much less play in the next game.
Because you didn't understand how or why something happened is not evidence of an intervention by a God.
True. But do you have an alternate explanation?
He had a bad sprain and everyone at the field, relying on their eyes, overreacted. Sterling Shepard had a bad sprain earlier this week and there was concern he might be out for a long time. He practiced today. Did God heal him too?
Based on his Instagram post the next day I'm going with yes, but honestly I haven't asked him.
So "god" healed your son but let countless devoted christians, Jews, Muslims, Druids, pagans and satanists die in awful fashion?
With all due respect......
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In comment 13553741 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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theology is stupid. I think there should be a natural curiosity of where we originated and where we are going.
I think what is stupid is using theology to craft and enforce social mores, and that's pretty much what all religions do.
We shouldn't commit adultery out of decency, not because there were supposedly stone tablets saying not to. My issue is that instead of people using common sense to dictate behavior, they are often influenced or guilted into behaviors that have been translated, mutated and misinterpreted from centuries ago.
I feel like I fall into a gray area where I have faith, but no beholdance to religion. I believe in a higher power and am very curious how our origins came about and if there's an afterlife, but I have utter disdain for anyone trying to dictate what my beliefs or behaviors should be. Part of being a human is having the ability to think for oneself and make my own decisions.
At its best - organized religion acts as a support structure for those who can't lead their own way. At its worst, religion is a vehicle (and a protected one at that) to bilk people out of money, brainwash their thinking and control their actions. All organized religions do this in some form.
I agree. I believe in a god or higher power, but don't think any can know the nature of god is or what it wants from us - if anything. That why I think Theology is stupid. That and the fact that it creates wars between peoples who pretty much believe in the same morals anyway.
I get that theology helped to ingrain these morals into barbaric, tribal peoples in ancient and mideivel times. People at those times weren't going to work to build a better society unless they thought it would grant them ever lasting peace after they died. But now we know the benifits of a peaceful society, so I still believe thelogy is stupid.
The true value of religions are the lessons they teach us. Judaism's symbolisms and philosophies, Jesus's sermons and Christianities 7 virtues and deadly sins, Islams Five Pillars, Buddhism's meditations. All have made life a little better where they were taught.
Scientology's lesson is - abandon your family and pay us money then maybe you can be happy.
This sounds very much like the screed that a person who doesn't believe cannot be a moral/ethical person. Absolute horseshit, of course, but it's a very common view, even among those professing to be Atheists.
BMac, that wasn't my intention. These morals lessons from the main religions have been ingrained into society whether you believe in the Theology or not (I don't). You don't need to be a follower to benefit from yhe Golden Rule and the Judgement of Solomon.
Its people that create these lessons, not gods. They just used religion to get everyone to listen back then. You probably never believed Hansel and Grettle were real people, but I bet you still learned as a child not to trust strange old ladies offering candy in the woods.
Its just stories and lessons written by very smart and creative people who were trying to aid society. True many eventually profitted from them, causing rifts that bred new religions that were also eventually perverted for profits - but the stories and morals remain.
No one wants to hear stories like that unless there is evidence, and there isn't any in your scenario. If the bone is healed, then all evidence disappears along with the break. An x-ray is not evidence of anything. Even with "evidence," it would be a hard sell. I'm not sure whats so hard to understand about that.
The idea that a miracle healing took place and would want to be studied makes sense, but realistically its not likely to happen based on a couple of x-rays and the word of some some local physician and his patient.
No one wants to hear stories like that unless there is evidence, and there isn't any in your scenario. If the bone is healed, then all evidence disappears along with the break. An x-ray is not evidence of anything. Even with "evidence," it would be a hard sell. I'm not sure whats so hard to understand about that.
The idea that a miracle healing took place and would want to be studied makes sense, but realistically its not likely to happen based on a couple of x-rays and the word of some some local physician and his patient.
An xray of a broken leg on friday followed by an x ray of the same healed leg on saturday wouldn't be evidence that something unusual happened? What a weird position to take. Of course it would be evidence.
Here is a snippet from Mark Twain's essay "Concerning the Jews" published in 1899...
I am persuaded that in Russia, Austria, and Germany nine-tenths of the hostility to the Jew comes from the average Christian's inability to compete successfully with the average Jew in business - in either straight business or the questionable sort. In Berlin, a few years ago, I read a speech which frankly urged the expulsion of the Jews from Germany; and the agitator's reason was as frank as his proposition.
It was this: that eighty-five per cent. of the successful lawyers of Berlin were Jews, and that about the same percentage of the great and lucrative businesses of all sorts in Germany were in the hands of the Jewish race! Isn't it an amazing confession? It was but another way of saying that in a population of 48,000,000, of whom only 500,000 were registered as Jews, eight-five per cent. of the brains and honesty of the whole was lodged in the Jews.
I must insist upon the honesty - it is an essential of successful business, taken by and large. Of course it does not rule out rascals entirely, even among Christians, but it is a good working rule, nevertheless. The speaker's figures may have been inexact, but the motive of persecution stands out as clear as day. The man claimed that in Berlin the banks, the newspapers, the theatres, the great mercantile, shipping, mining, and manufacturing interests, the big army and city contracts, the tramways, and pretty much all other properties of high value, and also the small businesses, were in the hands of the Jews.
He said the Jew was pushing the Christian to the wall all along the line; that it was all a Christian could do to scrape together a living; and that the Jew must be banished, and soon - there was no other way of saving the Christian.
Here in Vienna, last autumn, an agitator said that all these disastrous details were true of Austria-Hungary also; and in fierce language he demanded the expulsion of the Jews. When politicians come out without a blush and read the baby act in this frank way, unrebuked, it is a very good indication that they have a market back of them, and know where to fish for votes. You note the crucial point of the mentioned agitation; the argument is that the Christian cannot compete with the Jew, and that hence his very bread is in peril. To human beings this is a much more hate-inspiring thing than is any detail connected with religion.
With most people, of a necessity, bread and meat take first rank, religion second. I am convinced that the persecution of the Jew is not due in any large degree to religious prejudice. No, the Jew is a money-getter; and in getting his money he is a very serious obstruction to less capable neighbors who are on the same quest. I think that that is the trouble.
The full essay can be found here... - ( New Window )
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nor am I *blaming* the media for anything.
No one wants to hear stories like that unless there is evidence, and there isn't any in your scenario. If the bone is healed, then all evidence disappears along with the break. An x-ray is not evidence of anything. Even with "evidence," it would be a hard sell. I'm not sure whats so hard to understand about that.
The idea that a miracle healing took place and would want to be studied makes sense, but realistically its not likely to happen based on a couple of x-rays and the word of some some local physician and his patient.
An x-ray of a broken leg on friday followed by an x ray of the same healed leg on saturday wouldn't be evidence that something unusual happened? What a weird position to take. Of course it would be evidence.
Do you think anyone on this site would consider that evidence?
#FlatEarth #Google
But Farrakhan has become a scientologist and so has the whole Nation of Islam under his leadership
Here is a snippet from Mark Twain's essay "Concerning the Jews" published in 1899...
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I feel convinced that the Crucifixion has not much to do with the world's attitude towards the Jew; that the reasons for it are older than that event, as suggested by Egypt's experience and by Rome's regret for having persecuted an unknown quantity called a Christian, under the mistaken impression that she was merely persecuting a Jew. Merely a Jew - a skinned eel who was used to it, presumably.
I am persuaded that in Russia, Austria, and Germany nine-tenths of the hostility to the Jew comes from the average Christian's inability to compete successfully with the average Jew in business - in either straight business or the questionable sort. In Berlin, a few years ago, I read a speech which frankly urged the expulsion of the Jews from Germany; and the agitator's reason was as frank as his proposition.
It was this: that eighty-five per cent. of the successful lawyers of Berlin were Jews, and that about the same percentage of the great and lucrative businesses of all sorts in Germany were in the hands of the Jewish race! Isn't it an amazing confession? It was but another way of saying that in a population of 48,000,000, of whom only 500,000 were registered as Jews, eight-five per cent. of the brains and honesty of the whole was lodged in the Jews.
I must insist upon the honesty - it is an essential of successful business, taken by and large. Of course it does not rule out rascals entirely, even among Christians, but it is a good working rule, nevertheless. The speaker's figures may have been inexact, but the motive of persecution stands out as clear as day. The man claimed that in Berlin the banks, the newspapers, the theatres, the great mercantile, shipping, mining, and manufacturing interests, the big army and city contracts, the tramways, and pretty much all other properties of high value, and also the small businesses, were in the hands of the Jews.
He said the Jew was pushing the Christian to the wall all along the line; that it was all a Christian could do to scrape together a living; and that the Jew must be banished, and soon - there was no other way of saving the Christian.
Here in Vienna, last autumn, an agitator said that all these disastrous details were true of Austria-Hungary also; and in fierce language he demanded the expulsion of the Jews. When politicians come out without a blush and read the baby act in this frank way, unrebuked, it is a very good indication that they have a market back of them, and know where to fish for votes. You note the crucial point of the mentioned agitation; the argument is that the Christian cannot compete with the Jew, and that hence his very bread is in peril. To human beings this is a much more hate-inspiring thing than is any detail connected with religion.
With most people, of a necessity, bread and meat take first rank, religion second. I am convinced that the persecution of the Jew is not due in any large degree to religious prejudice. No, the Jew is a money-getter; and in getting his money he is a very serious obstruction to less capable neighbors who are on the same quest. I think that that is the trouble.
The full essay can be found here... - ( New Window )
There is a race of jews that is not jewish? I don't understand the difference between jewish the religion and jewish the race.
I admit I'm not an expert, but I thought it was one in the same.
If those people who owned those businesses and were successful lawyers had been christian would they still be of the jewish race?
BMac, that wasn't my intention. These morals lessons from the main religions have been ingrained into society whether you believe in the Theology or not (I don't). You don't need to be a follower to benefit from yhe Golden Rule and the Judgement of Solomon.
Its people that create these lessons, not gods. They just used religion to get everyone to listen back then. You probably never believed Hansel and Grettle were real people, but I bet you still learned as a child not to trust strange old ladies offering candy in the woods.
Its just stories and lessons written by very smart and creative people who were trying to aid society. True many eventually profitted from them, causing rifts that bred new religions that were also eventually perverted for profits - but the stories and morals remain.
Eh, I dont buy it. Religions incorporate the low hanging fruit. Dont murder people. etc. It doesnt mean we should give them joint credit for the idea of not murdering people. It's kind of insulting to non-believers to imply that but for religions they dont believe in, they're be all about that murder.
I am not the Sultan, and I am not objecting; but if that concentration of the cunningest brains in the world were going to be made in a free country, I think it would be politic to stop it. It will not be well to let the race find out its strength. If the horses knew theirs, we should not ride any more.
There is a race of jews that is not jewish? I don't understand the difference between jewish the religion and jewish the race.
I admit I'm not an expert, but I thought it was one in the same.
If those people who owned those businesses and were successful lawyers had been christian would they still be of the jewish race?
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There is a race of jews that is not jewish? I don't understand the difference between jewish the religion and jewish the race.
I admit I'm not an expert, but I thought it was one in the same.
If those people who owned those businesses and were successful lawyers had been christian would they still be of the jewish race?
Think of the Jewish race as simply a gene pool (if you like, you can divide the gene pool even further into Ashkenazim and Sephardim, which together make up roughly 90% of all Jews). So one can belong to that gene pool and not practice Judaism or one can practice Judaism without belonging to that gene pool. But it was the "gene pool" which Hitler sought to exterminate, so it mattered little to him what religion the Jew practiced or if he practiced no religion at all.
Should be noted, that guy was NUTS.
the full essay (trigger warning: not politically correct)... - ( New Window )
In spite of the widespread, responsible criticism of dianetic theory, Hubbard was not deterred from promulgating his notions. Faced in 1951 with legal difficulties, he proceeded, as his ex-associate, science-fiction writer and editor John Campbell, Jr. put it, “to get religion”—and the tax advantages inherent in church status. Hubbard’s decision came as no shock to Sam Mos[k]owitz, science-fiction editor and author. “Three years earlier,” he recalls, “Hubbard spoke before the Eastern Science-Fiction Association in Newark, New Jersey. I don’t recall his exact words. But, in effect, he told us that writing science-fiction for about a penny a word was no way to make a living. If you really want to make a million, he said, the quickest way is to start your own religion.”
and
“The night I heard it, Lester del Rey said you should start a religion. Del Rey had been a stump minister. He was one of the top five or six science fiction writers of the day. Lester also turned out to be one of the great frauds of his day — ‘Lester del Rey’ wasn’t even his name. But he was a very outgoing, garrulous guy, and he said to Ron, you ought to start a religion!
“Right around that time, Reich’s orgone box was fairly popular, and there was a lot of psychiatry talk going on. L. Sprague de Camp was there. Lee Correy — his real name was Jay Stanton. Each of them chipped in a little bit. One chipped in the Reich orgone box, which became the e-meter. Another one chipped in group therapy, which was big at the time. This was right around the time the Kinsey Report came out.
Lester contributed most to the discussion, and out of it came Dianetics. Hubbard got Dianetics going. It didn’t become Scientology until he wanted to get tax exemption,” Ellison says.
Pay the Writer! - ( New Window )
You can call BS on me if you want, but this legit happened 2 years ago:
My son, then a senior in high school, was playing football. There was a few minutes left in the game and his team was running out the clock. He was the trusted RB for this type of situation.
Anyways, he went down with a leg injury, an obvious clean break jusy above the ankle. Two kids on his team threw up on the field, one ran for the ambulance, one - who's Mom was a Dr ran to the crowd and yelled to his Mom - "Mom, its Tim! His leg is snapped! Its disgusting!"
By the time my wife and I got to the sideline, they had him loaded in the ambulance. There was a Dr with the ambulance crew that told us his leg was broken. The coach came over, with the game still going on, to talk to us. He said he saw the whole thing and was pretty shook. He was hoping Tim would be OK for baseball season, which was 6 months away.
From the time he went down with the injury, until we got to the hospital, I prayed.
When he got to the hospital they gave him morphine and took him right in to get XRays. When he got back to the room, I looked at his leg, and it didnt look too bad. Perhaps a little swolen.
Anyways, the Dr came in with the Xrays and told us there was no break. I asked him if he could have a radiologist check, because 5 people and my son himself told me they saw his leg bent at 90 degrees in a place where that waw not possible. He said that wasnt necessary, and sent him home. The next day I took him to the local sports medicine location, which is open on the weekend for sports injuries. They couldnt find a break either and said maybe it was sprained.
He wasnt in much pain, and by Wedesday was back at football practice. He played in the next game, and the rest of the year.
Is there a reasonable explanation for this? We give credit to our God. Is that foolish? Were all the people who saw his injury up close, including a Dr, wrong or does he have magic bones?
At the end of the year football banquet, the coach gave him a special award for "toughness", because in his words he was just hoping Tim would be able to walk again after seeing his injury, much less play in the next game.
The "reasonable" explanation is that eyewitnesses are notoriously wrong about details. Blame the boobs that believed that whab they think they saw was actually happening.
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In comment 13553762 Pete in 'Vliet said:
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In comment 13553741 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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theology is stupid. I think there should be a natural curiosity of where we originated and where we are going.
I think what is stupid is using theology to craft and enforce social mores, and that's pretty much what all religions do.
We shouldn't commit adultery out of decency, not because there were supposedly stone tablets saying not to. My issue is that instead of people using common sense to dictate behavior, they are often influenced or guilted into behaviors that have been translated, mutated and misinterpreted from centuries ago.
I feel like I fall into a gray area where I have faith, but no beholdance to religion. I believe in a higher power and am very curious how our origins came about and if there's an afterlife, but I have utter disdain for anyone trying to dictate what my beliefs or behaviors should be. Part of being a human is having the ability to think for oneself and make my own decisions.
At its best - organized religion acts as a support structure for those who can't lead their own way. At its worst, religion is a vehicle (and a protected one at that) to bilk people out of money, brainwash their thinking and control their actions. All organized religions do this in some form.
I agree. I believe in a god or higher power, but don't think any can know the nature of god is or what it wants from us - if anything. That why I think Theology is stupid. That and the fact that it creates wars between peoples who pretty much believe in the same morals anyway.
I get that theology helped to ingrain these morals into barbaric, tribal peoples in ancient and mideivel times. People at those times weren't going to work to build a better society unless they thought it would grant them ever lasting peace after they died. But now we know the benifits of a peaceful society, so I still believe thelogy is stupid.
The true value of religions are the lessons they teach us. Judaism's symbolisms and philosophies, Jesus's sermons and Christianities 7 virtues and deadly sins, Islams Five Pillars, Buddhism's meditations. All have made life a little better where they were taught.
Scientology's lesson is - abandon your family and pay us money then maybe you can be happy.
This sounds very much like the screed that a person who doesn't believe cannot be a moral/ethical person. Absolute horseshit, of course, but it's a very common view, even among those professing to be Atheists.
BMac, that wasn't my intention. These morals lessons from the main religions have been ingrained into society whether you believe in the Theology or not (I don't). You don't need to be a follower to benefit from yhe Golden Rule and the Judgement of Solomon.
Its people that create these lessons, not gods. They just used religion to get everyone to listen back then. You probably never believed Hansel and Grettle were real people, but I bet you still learned as a child not to trust strange old ladies offering candy in the woods.
Its just stories and lessons written by very smart and creative people who were trying to aid society. True many eventually profitted from them, causing rifts that bred new religions that were also eventually perverted for profits - but the stories and morals remain.
I didn't intend to diss you or your viewpoint, it's just that this nonsense is repeated ad nauseum with absolutely no evidence to back it up. it's simply an ingrained belief that sounds good at first hearing, but is belied by the facts.
Not looking to take a shot at you, although I understand how it came off that way. Apologies for my current lack of communication skills.
Bill Maher's Religulous
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Religion performance ... All you need to know.
Bill Maher's Religulous
Watch Maher's film for entertainment, but not for education. It contains some bad info, like the notion that Jesus is based on the Egyptian god Horus.
That is the exclusive benefit of a religion. Its a fixed thought process that fills a human need for answers, whereas science or non-religious alternatives can change ones worldview via trial and error, or visa versa. Some are less receptive to such dynamics.
Exactly why belief systems, including Scientology, have to come with so many customs and ceremonies kind of escapes me, but I speculate that they serve keep the masses focused on the belief system instead of "competitiors" And the crazier the system, like Scientology, the more control they need to exert.
Scientology is a cult, plain and simple.
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In comment 13553705 Sec 103 said:
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Religion performance ... All you need to know.
Bill Maher's Religulous
Watch Maher's film for entertainment, but not for education. It contains some bad info, like the notion that Jesus is based on the Egyptian god Horus.
He doesn't say he's based on Horus, just points out that there are too many similarities to be coincidence. The early church subsumed many features from other religions, going so far as to take pagan rituals and "christionizing" them.
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In comment 13554410 SHO'NUFF said:
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In comment 13553705 Sec 103 said:
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Religion performance ... All you need to know.
Bill Maher's Religulous
Watch Maher's film for entertainment, but not for education. It contains some bad info, like the notion that Jesus is based on the Egyptian god Horus.
He doesn't say he's based on Horus, just points out that there are too many similarities to be coincidence. The early church subsumed many features from other religions, going so far as to take pagan rituals and "christionizing" them.
Except each "coincidence" is an extreme stretch of imagination, to be kind. And the overall implication is, indeed, that Jesus is based on Horus.
Scholars of comparative religion largely dismiss the comparisons between Jesus and Horus. It doesn't strengthen Maher's polemic (not "documentary") to include things like that.
Scientology is a cult, plain and simple.
I wouldn't say that. All religions have "cultish" sects to them, for lack of a better term.
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is an insult to religions.
Scientology is a cult, plain and simple.
I wouldn't say that. All religions have "cultish" sects to them, for lack of a better term.
Not just cultish sects to them, that's being polite.
for some people it's far more outlandish to believe that Jesus was born via immaculate conception, or that Jesus turned water to wine or any of this other miracles, or that he was actually resurrected or that Moses parted the red sea, that god gave him two stone tablets with 10 things man shouldn't do, or any of the other "miracles" of religion than anything in Scientology.
or the concept of god in general, someone referenced Carlin earlier, and he has some great segments about religion, that man believes there is an invisible man in the sky who watches everything we do and we can't do these 10 things and we have to give him money. google Carlin religion youtube and watch it, it's sort of enlightening what people are willing to believe for comfort.
and I feel like I need to add this disclaimer, I don't mean to offend anyone believe what you want, but maybe look at yourself and your beliefs before calling something else a cult or crazy and judging them.
Hari Krishnas do, and how much different is that?
Hari Krishnas do, and how much different is that?
+1 -- well said.
"For many years, the unofficial policy of the Sea Org was to coerce women to have abortions. There are NUMEROUS heartbreaking and CONSISTENT stories that confirm this."
Apparently this policy has been 'eased', but I'm not sure I even believe that.
Link - ( New Window )
There are some other facts about the religion and its founder that also put the entire thing into question.
Namely, it's a fact that LRH is one of the most prolific writers of fiction in history. He had a passion for sci-fi.
Think about that.
But the additional point (stated fact, actually) many have noted on this thread is that every other faith is, too.
Of course different ones have engendered different consequences now and historically, but obviously they're all equally fictitious.
My point was that Scientology would seem to be in an area somewhat its own inside that circle.
For instance, there's evidence to suggest that the very origin of Scientology as a religion was a hoax that its creator knew to be patently bullshit purposely designed to fuck people out of money.
At a minimum, other religions were by and large created/founded with either positive intentions or the genuine feeling of need to answer some fundamental questions.
There's a big difference in that, to me.
But the additional point (stated fact, actually) many have noted on this thread is that every other faith is, too.
Of course different ones have engendered different consequences now and historically, but obviously they're all equally fictitious.
Spoiler alert: David Miscavage doesn't come out looking very good.
Tampa Bay Times Reports on Scientology - ( New Window )
How's it going Admiral?
I'd love to know what those ribbons are for.
Freakshow
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In comment 13554657 Mr. Bungle said:
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In comment 13554410 SHO'NUFF said:
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In comment 13553705 Sec 103 said:
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Religion performance ... All you need to know.
Bill Maher's Religulous
Watch Maher's film for entertainment, but not for education. It contains some bad info, like the notion that Jesus is based on the Egyptian god Horus.
He doesn't say he's based on Horus, just points out that there are too many similarities to be coincidence. The early church subsumed many features from other religions, going so far as to take pagan rituals and "christionizing" them.
Except each "coincidence" is an extreme stretch of imagination, to be kind. And the overall implication is, indeed, that Jesus is based on Horus.
Scholars of comparative religion largely dismiss the comparisons between Jesus and Horus. It doesn't strengthen Maher's polemic (not "documentary") to include things like that.
It's your inference, not his implication.