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August 9 Training Camp Observations

Sy'56 : 8/9/2017 4:40 pm
Beautiful day, 80-plus and sunny with a slight breeze. Two days before a game, the intensity was slightly down but I for the most part they were still competing. No pads, but they were in shells.

Small not about the layout of practice and this teamís approach to Special TeamsÖa TON of time is spent on this phase. Gidie made a note that the Coughlin era did not spend near this amount of time on specials and that McAdoo appears to run a much more organized, regimented practice. It is a very smooth process start to finish.

-K Aldrick Rosas has such a powerful leg. There is a trend in the league right now with kickers. They are MUCH better athletes than I remember watching growing up. Rosas fits the mold, he definitely spends time in the weight room and the trajectory of his kicks shows. He has the inside track for the number one job as long as he doesnít mightily struggle in preseason games.

OFFENSE NOTES

-The talk of the day from the ďstoryĒ side of things will be Chad Wheeler and his short stint with the number ones. I donít think there is any speculation deserved on him being in an under the radar competition for the starting LT spot. He has been impressive, which we have noted a few times, but no way is this team giving up on Flowers yet. Wheeler was beat badly on Vernon on his first play, and may have gotten away with a hold on the next. However this is important for his maturation process, to see what a top half of the league DE actually plays like. He is one of m focal points for Friday night, something he is really pumped about.

-The newly signed OL Corin Brooks looks like a guard, that is my first impression based on just checking him out and going through individuals. I donít think he got on the field with the offense today.

-WR Sterling Shepard looks to be getting better each day, he faced off in some one on one drills. He made a nice body-adjusting catch where again, he seemed to have zero hesitation on his ankle.

-WR Darius Powe and Roger Lewis are competing for a spot. There is a chance both will make the roster but I think itís slim. Powe offers more size and strength and I think more reliable hands. Lewis is the better, looser-hipped athlete that will make the big-play that raises eyebrows. He has also been good for obvious drop pretty much every day and appears to be mis-reading defenses on his option routes. If it comes down to special teams, Lewis will win out.

-TE Evan Engram lined up split out wide against LB Jonathan Casillas one play in 11 on 11. He didnít get the ball thrown his way but it was a very simple 4-5 steps before he was running deep leaving Casillas in his rear view mirror. If this kid can get matchups like that in spaceÖ.

-TE Matt LaCosse with ANOTHER impressive catch. No, you arenít reading yesterdayís report, or the one before that, or the one before that. This kid is getting it done every day. I hope he gets some first team looks in games over the next few weeks. While we are discussing backup TEs, I am still waiting on Colin Thompsonís first drop because it hasnít happened yet.

-The offense had a bit of a sloppy day. Eli didnít see DE Vernon on a zone blitz as he dropped in to coverage, throwing a near INT on a 5 yard pass. Weston Richburg sailed a snap over Manningís head soon after, and Perkins dropped an easy pass in the flat later on.

-RB Wayne Gallman isnít getting a ton of reps, but he showed a jump cut today that most backs canít do. LeSean McCoy is the master of the jump cut if you need a visual, and Gallman caught a ball while twisting in the air, landed, and jump-cut his way to a TD. Not sure many people even noticed it but again, most backs canít move like that.

-RB Khalid Abdullah Ďs main weakness is unplanned movement. He looks strong and explosive when he is running straight ahead without adjustment. But when he has to innovate on his own, react to a defender, or turn his body to get a pass away from his body he looks very unnatural.

DEFENSE NOTES

-Soon after I spoke about not knowing or understanding if LB Stansly Maponga can fit in this scheme, he goes out and has a day. He showed a strong pass rush presence against OT Adam Bisnowaty. He gets his pad level really far down and his weight plus lower body strength makes him hard to alter. He may get caught in the numbers game but he does have versatility on his side.

-DT Damon Harrison seemed to uptick a bit today despite not being in full pads. I will stand by my statement I made a few weeks ago. He is the most important player on this defense. If he stays healthy, he alone will keep this run defense competitive.

-And I hate to sound like I am wearing blue-colored glasses, but I strongly believe this defense can be the best in the league. There are stars and potential stars everywhere. Seeing Harrison eat double teams with ease, then watching the DEs Jason Pierre Paul and Olivier Vernon rush the edge, with arguably the best top three CB combo in the league and a budding star in Landon CollinsÖI think NYG fans need to soak this up. This might be the best defense in a long time that this team has had.

-Two LBs at the bottom of the depth chart looking up are Deontae Skinner and Curtis Grant. Both are straight line guys with stiffness when moving laterally. In addition, I donít see the quick, easy reactions to the offense right after the snap. They are a step behind. The contrast between them and a guy like BJ Goodson when it comes to instincts is blatantly obvious.

-DE Olivier Vernon looks great, albeit against tackles that may be a step below what he will face most Sundays. What I like about him, and something I always look for in pass rushers during the scouting process, is his ability to stay low, balanced, powerful, and quick. He values run defense as we saw last year and I predict we will see more sacks than what he put out in 2016. They have him standing up on some plays, something I think he prefers.

-Did S Duke Ihenacho move up on the depth chart over Andrew Adams? Looked like he was 2nd string guy today. I donít have much on him but he does have more experience than every safety on this roster and a lot of coaches around the league like a guy back there like that.

3 STANDOUTS

-CB Donte Deayon: I can tell Spags really likes this kid both from how he treats him in practice and what he says about him to the media. There are guys that some coaches quietly root for, and Deayon is one of them. He plays all out, all the time. He follows his assignments. He plays with a chip on his shoulder. He is rarely out of position. That sounds good for a 5th/6th corner. His size limits him in a lot of areas but there isnít a guy on this team that can stick to Odell Beckham the way Deayon has showed.

-QB Eli Manning: Itís time we talk about him a tad. He has become some reliable and consistent year to year that NYG fans likely take him for granted. McAdoo said this has been Manningís best camp when it comes to understanding the offense and itís intentions, completing passes, and teaching others. I think it is fair to suggest this may be his best year yet. It was nice to see Manning walk off the field with TE Engram after 11 on 11 talking about what to do when he starts checking down/scrambling. That relationship will be HUGE for this offense.

-TE Rhett Ellison: When Ellison was drafted by MIN, the primary focus was him blocking and aiding the Adrian Peterson show. He never quite got to expose himself as a receiver consistently. Knowing how much Manning uses the TE in any scheme heís in and how reliable Ellison looks like as a route runner and pass catcher, I think he may be THE safety blanket that Manning could have used last year.


August 9 Video and Interview
thanks Sy -  
Del Shofner : 8/9/2017 4:51 pm : link
great stuff as always!
Sy..  
Chris684 : 8/9/2017 4:55 pm : link
Your rave reviews about the D and Eli looking sharp in camp according to your write-ups and McAdoo's pressers are exciting to say the least.

There was one thread (last week I believe) in which we all argued about where this roster stacks up on paper, I said after the draft, north of 12 wins. Lots can happen between now and January but camp seems to be reinforcing this.

On a separate thread we were arguing the value of franchise QBs. If you go back and look at Super Bowls of the last decade plus, all you will find is a short list of franchise QBs and elite defenses.

This team has BOTH.
Thanks Sy  
Andy in Boston : 8/9/2017 4:56 pm : link
so far, do you think Flowers is looking better with technique than last year?
In fairness to Coughlin  
nms24 : 8/9/2017 4:56 pm : link
He was likely a driving force in the move from Albany to Quest. He was always pretty salty about not having great practice space, especially during the rain.
RE: Thanks Sy  
Sy'56 : 8/9/2017 4:57 pm : link
In comment 13554214 Andy in Boston said:
Quote:
so far, do you think Flowers is looking better with technique than last year?


No.

But we will know more after a few preseason games.
Really excited about the notion that TE...  
Dunedin81 : 8/9/2017 5:06 pm : link
could go from being a glaring weakness this year to a position of strength, and not just with Engram.
RE: RE: Thanks Sy  
Giantfan in skinland : 8/9/2017 5:07 pm : link
In comment 13554217 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13554214 Andy in Boston said:


Quote:


so far, do you think Flowers is looking better with technique than last year?



No.

But we will know more after a few preseason games.


Frankly, I'm not sure there's really any reason to expect much of a difference. Not because of the player specifically, but because there is so little preseason practice time. Training camp now doesn't seem to me to be a place where a player really has all much that time to refine his craft...ESPECIALLY for the guys in the trenches. That's why the quality of OL play has gone down in general IMO. I think for a guy like Flowers, it's a slow curve. I'm not expecting a different guy this, just hoping for a continuing slow improvement and adequate enough play overall on the line to allow our skill players to make things happen.
RE: RE: Thanks Sy  
The_Boss : 8/9/2017 5:17 pm : link
In comment 13554217 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13554214 Andy in Boston said:


Quote:


so far, do you think Flowers is looking better with technique than last year?



No.

But we will know more after a few preseason games.


I was there today. Zeroed in on Flowrrs a ton in team periods. His technique, from stance to balance, still looks like a work in progress, to be kind. Up close he's an enormous human being. But it seems like it's a case of "looks like Tarzan, plays like Jane"...
...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 8/9/2017 5:28 pm : link
Sy'56... love the guys you are picking to interview.
We have an orgy of TEs  
djm : 8/9/2017 5:30 pm : link
And that makes me smile.
Great review!  
TC : 8/9/2017 5:42 pm : link
Thanks, Sy!

You just keep getting better.
RE: RE: Thanks Sy  
Jimmy Googs : 8/9/2017 5:49 pm : link
In comment 13554217 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13554214 Andy in Boston said:


Quote:


so far, do you think Flowers is looking better with technique than last year?



No.

But we will know more after a few preseason games.


Ouch.

I mentioned something of the like earlier today and got spanked for it. Maybe they will believe you...
RE: We have an orgy of TEs  
OntheRoad : 8/9/2017 5:54 pm : link
In comment 13554240 djm said:
Quote:
And that makes me smile.


I agree. I am excited.

Although I would prefer to use a different image.
RE: We have an orgy of TEs  
OntheRoad : 8/9/2017 5:54 pm : link
In comment 13554240 djm said:
Quote:
And that makes me smile.


I agree. I am excited.

Although I would prefer to use a different image.
Re: Flowers, when is the last time we wished and hoped  
widmerseyebrow : 8/9/2017 5:58 pm : link
for a player, and they miraculously turned it around? Eli?
RE: Re: Flowers, when is the last time we wished and hoped  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 8/9/2017 6:12 pm : link
In comment 13554254 widmerseyebrow said:
Quote:
for a player, and they miraculously turned it around? Eli?


Turning it around? He's still a 23-year old player... same age as rookies coming out this year's draft. You're basically asking when is the last time a second- or third-year player got better... well that happens all the time on every team every year.
wheeler certainly comes across as a California Surfer Dude  
ZogZerg : 8/9/2017 6:20 pm : link
..
What if Jerrell Adans  
XBRONX : 8/9/2017 6:52 pm : link
is clearly the 5th best TE after preseason. Will they cut him or does he get the Reese " I drafted you" spot.
RE: What if Jerrell Adans  
Diver_Down : 8/9/2017 6:56 pm : link
In comment 13554285 XBRONX said:
Quote:
is clearly the 5th best TE after preseason. Will they cut him or does he get the Reese " I drafted you" spot.


If Senorita Moss could stick around on draft scholarship as long as he did, Adams should get at least a second year.
Adrien Roberson  
bubba0825 : 8/9/2017 7:11 pm : link
Got more time than he deserved
RE: RE: Re: Flowers, when is the last time we wished and hoped  
widmerseyebrow : 8/9/2017 7:15 pm : link
In comment 13554263 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Turning it around? He's still a 23-year old player... same age as rookies coming out this year's draft. You're basically asking when is the last time a second- or third-year player got better... well that happens all the time on every team every year.


You can cite his age but he's in the third year of a four year contract. The Giants don't get bonus cheap years because he's younger than most. Amobi Okoye was 19 when he was drafted in the first round, but that didn't earn him a second contract with the Lions. He fizzled out of the league shortly after.

Players don't get better? You're just putting words in my mouth. I was referring to drafted players that don't show very well in years one, two, and training camp of year three. How often do those players become players worthy of a second contract? History says not often, particularly with the Giants. And if his trajectory doesn't tick up substantially we'll be discussing if he's worth starting left tackle money come contract time.

Your top contributor flatly saying "No" about his improvement is not a great sign.
Question for Sy re: Flowers  
Marty in Albany : 8/9/2017 7:44 pm : link
After the Steelers game it would be interesting to compare Flowers' run blocking with his pass blocking.

I would also like to think that some of Flowers' technique problems are because he lacks confidence and that if he achieves some success in real games his technique will improve.
RE: RE: RE: Re: Flowers, when is the last time we wished and hoped  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/9/2017 8:27 pm : link
In comment 13554302 widmerseyebrow said:
Quote:
And if his trajectory doesn't tick up substantially we'll be discussing if he's worth starting left tackle money come contract time.



Why? Obviously he wouldn't be remotely considered for a contract like that in that case.
RE: Re: Flowers, when is the last time we wished and hoped  
section125 : 8/9/2017 8:28 pm : link
In comment 13554254 widmerseyebrow said:
Quote:
for a player, and they miraculously turned it around? Eli?


Amani Toomer. Tiki Barber.
RE: RE: Thanks Sy  
section125 : 8/9/2017 8:34 pm : link
In comment 13554217 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13554214 Andy in Boston said:


Quote:


so far, do you think Flowers is looking better with technique than last year?



No.

But we will know more after a few preseason games.


Not for nothing Sy, but most of the reporters are saying he does look better since the weekend. They may not have your eye for detail. And it will take all summer to see results anyway and practice does not mean that much except for reps. No doubt he will regress at some points and look good at others - if there is improvement. I think if he is serious he will still look very ugly at times.
I want to see  
ctc in ftmyers : 8/9/2017 8:39 pm : link
Flowers with a blocking TE who can help him and a fullback in the back field on passing plays and a single back 4 wide on running plays to keep the defense guessing in games to boost his confidence.

We won't see that until the regular season though.
Duke Ihenacho  
bluepepper : 8/9/2017 8:45 pm : link
not a name we've heard much. Looking at his history it seems like he impressed in Denver but then got hurt. Won a starting job in Wash then got hurt. Have to be a bit leery of him.
RE: RE: Re: Flowers, when is the last time we wished and hoped  
widmerseyebrow : 8/9/2017 9:01 pm : link
In comment 13554364 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 13554254 widmerseyebrow said:


Quote:


for a player, and they miraculously turned it around? Eli?



Amani Toomer. Tiki Barber.


Good calls on both. But still, 20 years ago with a different GM.
I cannot be the only one here  
Beezer : 8/9/2017 9:13 pm : link
who is struggling to temper my excitement.
Another day.....  
OBJRoyal : 8/9/2017 9:17 pm : link
Another excellent read!! Thanks for posting these daily

Excited for our pre season games to start and to see how guys like Lacosse and Pinkins fair
Jesus is Wheeler a big dude  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 8/9/2017 9:45 pm : link
and when Sy says he needs work in the weight room. Just a different species.
Agree  
Fish : 8/9/2017 10:11 pm : link
On the defense being great but may be wearing blue glasses as well. Add on if Goodson becomes the real deal. Have you noticed him?
Sy, a thousand thanks  
pganut : 8/9/2017 10:28 pm : link
These reports and your observations are incredibly great treats for all of us, especially the ones outside the Tri-State Area. You and gidie are spoiling us.

That said, it really is hard to not smile thinking about the possibilities for this team; we'll obviously see what happens with the bullets flying.

I like that you've mentioned Rosas a couple of times and I agree with what you noted about the athletic kicker evolution. Look no further than our former Brandon McManus. He's become a solid kicker, we definitely know about the leg; in practice recently he hit a 73-yarder I'd seen video of (practice scenario notwithstanding). If Rosas can perform under pressure, would be nice to have that in the check column, too.
RE: RE: RE: Re: Flowers, when is the last time we wished and hoped  
section125 : 8/9/2017 11:37 pm : link
In comment 13554398 widmerseyebrow said:
Quote:
In comment 13554364 section125 said:


Quote:


In comment 13554254 widmerseyebrow said:


Quote:


for a player, and they miraculously turned it around? Eli?



Amani Toomer. Tiki Barber.



Good calls on both. But still, 20 years ago with a different GM.


What does the GM have to do with player development? Up to the coaches to get is done. Flowers was 1st round talent, maybe not #9 but still 1st round.
RE: What if Jerrell Adans  
Big Blue Blogger : 8/10/2017 3:34 am : link
XBRONX said:
Quote:
is clearly the 5th best TE after preseason. Will they cut him or does he get the Reese " I drafted you" spot.
There isn't much of a "scholarship effect" for sixth round picks. Of Reese's eleven sixth-rounders before Adams and Bisnowaty, only Adam Koets and Jacquian Williams lasted more than two years with the Giants. Most recently, Geremy Davis lost his roster spot to UDFA Roger Lewis and the well-traveled Tavarres King. Davis is now trying to hang on with the Chargers, who signed him off the NYG practice squad last November.

I think Adams will make the team, but not because he was drafted. He's likely to make it because he has substantial upside and only one of the other TEs is much of a blocker.
It's interesting that Chad Wheeler  
Simms11 : 8/10/2017 7:21 am : link
got reps at LT with the 1s. Could that be Mac trying to motivate Flowers a little more? From the sound of it, Wheeler has better technique then Flowers already. I'm sure Flowers is the guy this year, barring injury, however, it'll be nice to have a competent back up that could potentially take the job next year.
RE: RE: RE: Thanks Sy  
gidiefor : Mod : 8/10/2017 7:23 am : link
In comment 13554368 section125 said:
Quote:

Not for nothing Sy, but most of the reporters are saying he does look better since the weekend. They may not have your eye for detail. And it will take all summer to see results anyway and practice does not mean that much except for reps. No doubt he will regress at some points and look good at others - if there is improvement. I think if he is serious he will still look very ugly at times.


section - better is relative -- Flowers has improved his body position, hand placement, and foot movement since the beginning of camp (when he looked almost disinterested) - but we haven't really seen him in action yet. He still shows some of the issues that have plagued him - in that he still moves somewhat awkwardly.

You can really see how awkward he is when you compare his movements to Chad Wheeler who has great balance, much more natural foot movement, and is quicker moving from his set position off the snap.

Sy is referring to Flowers general tendencies (the way he bends, places his feet, moves and reacts) there is a stiffness there that still remains from when Sy scouted him in College.
RE: It's interesting that Chad Wheeler  
gidiefor : Mod : 8/10/2017 7:27 am : link
In comment 13554601 Simms11 said:
Quote:
got reps at LT with the 1s. Could that be Mac trying to motivate Flowers a little more? From the sound of it, Wheeler has better technique then Flowers already. I'm sure Flowers is the guy this year, barring injury, however, it'll be nice to have a competent back up that could potentially take the job next year.


Wheeler does not have better technique than Flowers already -- he has better natural balance, body position and foot movement than Flowers -- but even Wheeler would tell you he's a work in progress. He was genuinely shocked at how OV blew by him yesterday.
It's amazing  
ryanmkeane : 8/10/2017 8:57 am : link
to me that we can't go a day without talking about Flowers. Let the kid actually play this year before we seal his fate. The last 2 games of the year he was really solid.
Flowers/Wheeler Reps  
ij_reilly : 8/10/2017 9:15 am : link
Those handful of reps that Wheeler got won't have any impact on Flowers' development but they gave Wheeler a taste of the NFL real deal. That could be an immense help to him, especially because he's playing Friday.

At the same time, I believe it is an indication that the coaches are pleased with Wheeler.

We all know that Wheeler is not taking over at LT this year, excluding the potential impact of injuries on the OL.
Do we think that  
Metnut : 8/10/2017 12:55 pm : link
the Giants will keep at least 3 TEs?
RE: Do we think that  
gidiefor : Mod : 8/10/2017 12:59 pm : link
In comment 13555056 Metnut said:
Quote:
the Giants will keep at least 3 TEs?


Metnut -- they will certainly keep 3 -- the issue is will they keep 3, 4 or 5
Thanks...  
Metnut : 8/10/2017 1:03 pm : link
probably was an obvious question but I always get confused as to how many at each position get kept...
Thank you - as usual  
Matt M. : 8/10/2017 1:23 pm : link
I look forward to your notes each day.

I said the same thing about Harrison when they signed him last year. I thought he was going to be the most important and influential piece on this D. It proved true last year and hopefully continues. If he plays like he should, everyone on this D is better. I don't think it was a coincidence that last year was the first year we got decent LB play in a long time, for example. He eats up 2 people in the middle and keeps it clean for others. His impact wasn't just felt by Vernon and J
PP, but rather by the entire D.
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