NFT: Indians close to acquiring Jay Bruce

Refused to pick up money so sounds like a salary dump. Usual Wilpons

Should be a sweet return then.

Disgusting.

Jerry Crasnick
@jcrasnick
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Jay Bruce is heading to #Indians in a trade. The #Yankees were also involved in Bruce trade talks before #Mets dealt him to Cleveland.

Joel Sherman‏Verified account
@Joelsherman1

#Mets got Ryder Ryan from #Indians.

@NotTyKelly

Ryder Ryan is a 30th round pick with a 4.79 ERA in the minors. Do people still think Sandy is a good GM?

Yippee. This one is sucking in Low A despite a 4 year collegiate career.

.

In comment 13554437 DanMetroMan said:

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Refused to pick up money so sounds like a salary dump. Usual Wilpons

Yup, good thing Sandy held firm on his price for the past 10 months.

for Nimmo.

TY BRRUUUUUCE

Ignore his drafted in 30th

Bruce OK trade to a contender

If this scrub was all we could get in return

In comment 13554450 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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@NotTyKelly Ryder Ryan is a 30th round pick with a 4.79 ERA in the minors. Do people still think Sandy is a good GM?

Given away for a bag of balls. Yuck. how about a 3rd base prospect?

In comment 13554456 spike said:

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for Nimmo. TY BRRUUUUUCE

Collins will sooner play Granderson than Nimmo

In comment 13554459 spike said:

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In comment 13554450 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: @NotTyKelly Ryder Ryan is a 30th round pick with a 4.79 ERA in the minors. Do people still think Sandy is a good GM? Given away for a bag of balls. Yuck. how about a 3rd base prospect?

He kind of is, I guess.

Jeff Ellis: Ryder Ryan on top of being alliterative is a right-handed sophomore pitcher for the University of North Carolina. He was drafted out of high school by the Cleveland Indians in the 40th round of the 2014 draft. It was interesting to see him drafted as a pitcher as he has pitched one inning in two years at school. Instead he has appeared in limited use as a hitter appearing in 33 games over the last two years. He has not found much success as a hitter yet though so he could be tried as a pitcher next year if he goes back to school. His dad was a baseball player who made it to AAA and his uncle pitched in the pros. Ryder was hitting 97 MPH in high school and while he is considered a third baseman by many the Indians clearly still think his future is on the mound. Normally, I would think a draft-eligible sophomore would be a very hard sign, but after two years of barely playing he might be willing to take the money and start a pro career.

Grandy Walker Cabrera too

Jon Heyman‏Verified account
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the yankees were in on jay bruce, but sources say they wanted mets to pay some of the $ remaining. indians will pay rest of $.

According to Sherman

The Rangers have reportedly agreed to a deal to acquire veteran outfielder Carlos Beltran from the Yankees. Righties Dillon Tate, Erik Swanson and Nick Green head to New York in the deal, which caps a partial but significant sell-off from the Bronx Bombers. The Rangers will pay $2.5MM of the approximately $5MM left of Beltran�s 2016 salary, Jeff Wilson of the Fort Worth Star-Telegram tweets.


and we got a peanut in trade. #Metsalwaystheamateur

Fred is pathetic

this is how it is like to be an Islander fan.

It's that much more troubling how I takes Sandy look. I'll hold off on any venting.

Dilson Herrera for Ryder Ryan

.

Doesn't seem enough to make much of a difference either way unless we know the Yankees were offering more.

Im pleased. Hoping we can unload Granderson, Walker, and Cabrera as well. Id like to see Nimmo get at least a few weeks of play. He's still blocked though.

until Lagares returns.

Gotta trade some infielders now

June 7, 2017 4:51 PM ET

Lake County Captains reliever Ryder Ryan has been dominant coming out of the bullpen this season and the right-hander has been honored for his efforts. After posting a miniscule 0.84 ERA over 16 appearances on the mound, Ryan has been named a 2017 Midwest League All-Star.

Ryan, a 30th round pick of the Cleveland Indians in the 2016 MLB Amateur Draft, was a position player for two years at the University of North Carolina, but the former infielder and catcher has adapted quickly to the mound. Opponents have scratched across just two earned runs in 21.1 innings against Ryan this season, which is his first full season as a pitcher. Last year, Ryan only pitched 18.2 innings in the rookie-level Arizona League after he was drafted. He made one pitching appearance in college.

Midwest League hitters have had a hard time squaring up Ryan this season. The league is batting just .111 against Ryan as of Wednesday. Ryan is also striking out batters at a brisk pace. With 27 strikeouts so far, Ryan is averaging 11.4 strikeouts per nine innings (K/9). Ryan is 3-for-3 in save chances this year and has a 1-2 record.

We need proven lefty power behind Cespedes somewhere. We cant lose Duda and Bruce. Bruce seems like a great clubhouse guy as well.

been better to keep Bruce offer the QO and likely have him reject it and get a comp pick then to get a 30th round relief pitcher back.

If this guy is still in A ball at 22 years old then the comp pick in the 2nd round comp round may not be that far behind.

worst case was they'd have Bruce another year on the QO.

Don't like this move, for 3.5M it should have been about maximizing the talent return, but while we don't need specifics, it doesn't sound like that was the case here.

too bad, missed opportunity.

we don't *know* specifics not need.

Anthony DiComo ✔ @AnthonyDiComo
Had Mets kept Bruce and extended him a QO, they would have received pick in the 75-85ish range in next year's draft if he signed elsewhere.

In comment 13554520 pjcas18 said:

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been better to keep Bruce offer the QO and likely have him reject it and get a comp pick then to get a 30th round relief pitcher back. If this guy is still in A ball at 22 years old then the comp pick in the 2nd round comp round may not be that far behind. worst case was they'd have Bruce another year on the QO. Don't like this move, for 3.5M it should have been about maximizing the talent return, but while we don't need specifics, it doesn't sound like that was the case here. too bad, missed opportunity.

I wouldn't pay much attention to his age. It's first full season ever pitching in his life. He was a position player in college.

mid-90s FB is at least a lotto ticket. I still think they are cheap and likely passed on better prospects to save the $5M but at least it clears a path for young guys.

with it's how far away he is from the majors.

and stuff like this bothers me. The Yankees wanted them to eat some salary for a better player, this is post-waivers if you can get a legit prospect by paying a couple million I think that should be the priority. Talent, not $$$.

Quote:

Zach Braziller Retweeted Marc Carig‏Verified account @MarcCarig 4m4 minutes ago Yankees would have covered only a portion of salary, but Yankees offered better players it seems.

He was hitting as high as 97 mph in high school. He's posting a nice K/9 and in his first year pitching professionally was an all-star in his league. This is the quintessential definition of an upside lottery pick.

I'd much rather have that than some boring utility player or some junkballer.

Pretty clear the emphasis this deadline was to get relievers, most likely since the cost has sky rocketed there.

We'll see how it plays out. We won't know for a few years obviously.

them more...

Just seems really odd that the Yankees and their 200 million dollar payroll are quibbling over 3 million bucks. "Hey, for 1.5 million dollars(a portion was mentioned) we'll totally throw in more in prospects than we want to if you make us pay the whole 3 mil!".

It just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

consistent, ZGiants. Wow.

Doubt that's ever happened before.

In comment 13554533 MookGiants said:

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consistent, ZGiants. Wow.

I really dont care either way. At this point we are past the deadline. We already know it was a buyers market and power hitters were going for next to nothing. If Sandy feels there's value in a kid throwing 97 mph over the 80th pick in the draft if we offered a QO Im not going to pitch a fit over it.

I want to see players like Nimmo get some play at this point so its a win either way.

(admittedly without knowing the details) the Mets prioritized saving money over adding talent. This is based on multiple Mets beat writer tweets.

and if it's true as a fan I find that frustrating.

In comment 13554534 ZGiants98 said:

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Doubt that's ever happened before.

Almost. Like it was. On purpose or something.
I mean, who could have predicted that. So,thing that's never been done before. So odd, and off the wall lol

I hope for the best, but it didn't work for Omar, I don't see it working now. Familia should be the blueprint, not Sewald.

In comment 13554537 pjcas18 said:

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(admittedly without knowing the details) the Mets prioritized saving money over adding talent. This is based on multiple Mets beat writer tweets. and if it's true as a fan I find that frustrating.

I dont see any beat saying that. The only thing confirmed is that the Yankees offered to eat some of the 3 million.

There's a real world where the Indians offered to pay for his salary AND Sandy liked the player more. We simply dont know unless you ask Sandy directly.

In comment 13554538 Shecky said:

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In comment 13554534 ZGiants98 said: Quote: Doubt that's ever happened before. Almost. Like it was. On purpose or something. I mean, who could have predicted that. So,thing that's never been done before. So odd, and off the wall lol I hope for the best, but it didn't work for Omar, I don't see it working now. Familia should be the blueprint, not Sewald.

You definitely called it! What's wrong with Sewald? Im a fan! I agree with you though. Never was one for trading for relievers but I think the game has changed a bit. We'll see how it plays out. Sandy rarely loses trades. All of these kids have upside. If 1 or 2 hit Ill call it a win for sure.

doesn't mean Sandy liked them more. The only thing confirmed is that the Yankees offered to eat some of the 3 million. The rest is all assumption, leading, or guesswork likely based on the Wilpons history.

It's pretty simple and will make sense

The Mets are a business
Prospects are an asset
Salary is a liability
Not paying a salary is an asset
Draft picks are assets

Each of the above have a value. A dollar value assigned to it.

Bruce's salary is say $4mm. Any production from him is valueless since it blocks a Nimmo, and any extra wins are worthless. Or negative ;)

The comp pick they get for Bruce would be worth say $4-5mm. So not getting the comp pick is equal to his salary. Literally almost a wash.

Point being. If team Y offers an additional prospect who you value as worth $1mm. But that team asks you to pick up $2mm of salary. Do the math.

Hope that helps

all prospects are equal. Tell me the dollar amount they placed on Ryder VS the Yankee prospects and Ill tell you how I feel.

But you cant tell me there arent specific players Sandy are looking for. All of these kids have upside. There are very specific players he's been targeting.

In comment 13554548 ZGiants98 said:

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doesn't mean Sandy liked them more. The only thing confirmed is that the Yankees offered to eat some of the 3 million. The rest is all assumption, leading, or guesswork likely based on the Wilpons history.

Who asks for a 30th round draft choice? If other teams had asked about the two prospects it likely means they were both better than a 30th rd pick. Of course if Sandy wanted a pitcher and the Yanks offered fielders then I understand.

BTW, I didn't want Bruce anyway.

In comment 13554553 ZGiants98 said:

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all prospects are equal. Tell me the dollar amount they placed on Ryder VS the Yankee prospects and Ill tell you how I feel.

46 cents vs 45 cents...

Afraid none of the acquisitions were 'targets'.

As fans we want them to trade vets only if its netting them good prospects otherwise it's only helping Fred's pockets

In comment 13554556 section125 said:

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In comment 13554548 ZGiants98 said: Quote: doesn't mean Sandy liked them more. The only thing confirmed is that the Yankees offered to eat some of the 3 million. The rest is all assumption, leading, or guesswork likely based on the Wilpons history. Who asks for a 30th round draft choice? If other teams had asked about the two prospects it likely means they were both better than a 30th rd pick. Of course if Sandy wanted a pitcher and the Yanks offered fielders then I understand. BTW, I didn't want Bruce anyway.

The fact that he was a 30th round draft choice is meaningless. He was a positon player in college. It's all about his tools, skillset, and what he's doing this year. Seems like he's raw but he's been getting some results.

It's the same with the other trades. Everyone rushed to look at pre-season rankings and ignores that for 3 months they have evolved as pitchers and are outperforming what they were doing coming into the season. It's typical fan stuff. It's fine. Nobody will know for a couple years.

In comment 13554558 Shecky said:

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In comment 13554553 ZGiants98 said: Quote: all prospects are equal. Tell me the dollar amount they placed on Ryder VS the Yankee prospects and Ill tell you how I feel. 46 cents vs 45 cents... Afraid none of the acquisitions were 'targets'.

Ok. So roughly equal. Exactly what I thought. As for "targets" I dont mean exact players. Im talking about a "type". The fact that you nailed we were looking for upside relievers weeks ago already confirms that.

Im going to be real happy if Sandy can literally get anything for Cabrera, Walker, and Granderson. If they throw hard... even better.

that Dom Smith is coming up?

In comment 13554567 Eric on Li said:

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Quote: Marc Carig‏Verified account @MarcCarig 4m4 minutes ago NYY: 2 prospects Mets asked for and $1m in salary relief. CLE: 30th rounder Ryder Ryan and about $5m in salary relief. Mets chose latter.

Read what Shecky just posted, if the Mets viewed Ryder at .46 cents and the Yankees prospects at .45 cents or even vice versa... it's pretty clear which was the better deal. Not one beat is saying anything other than the Yankees asked for us to eat some salary.

How was Cleveland offering us 5 million for Bruce when he's owed 3.7 million?

If Im a Yankee fan.. and I wanted Bruce... I'm pretty pissed right now that the YANKEES cheaped out. Let's assume Shecky is right and the prospects being offered were "close". If the Yankees blew the deal over asking for the Mets to kick in 1 million I'm bummed.

Typical.

In comment 13554573 ZGiants98 said:

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If Im a Yankee fan.. and I wanted Bruce... I'm pretty pissed right now that the YANKEES cheaped out. Let's assume Shecky is right and the prospects being offered were "close". If the Yankees blew the deal over asking for the Mets to kick in 1 million I'm bummed.

Small victories right?

FWIW, I personally did not want the Yanks to give up ANY decent prospects for Bruce. I dont think there are many fans who wanted Bruce in exchange for prospects either. So lets not get all hyoed up thinking that the Mets out maneuvered the Yankees. They didnt and Yankee fans are pretty glad the Mets turned down that offer. The last thing the Yankees need is another power hitter who hits under .260

they'll put more payroll in midseason when we're contending, but save money when the season is a stinker. So be it, it's a business. Im pretty doubtful that the Yankees were offering a major prospect for Bruce.

In terms of ACTUAl payroll. Mets are lumped in with payroll monsters such as the Cleveland Indians, Colorado Rockies and Kansas City Royals.

Based on Wrights insurance and removal of about $11mm from trades.

Ryder Ryan assigned to Columbia.

In comment 13554488 spike said:

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this is how it is like to be an Islander fan.

Absolutely. I mean.. look at the Leddy and Boychuk deals.

Oh..wait.

In comment 13554568 BobA said:

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that Dom Smith is coming up?

He's been struggling recently so they may wait. 8 for his last 38-.211 with 13 k's (last 10 games).

In comment 13554594 Deej said:

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they'll put more payroll in midseason when we're contending, but save money when the season is a stinker. So be it, it's a business. Im pretty doubtful that the Yankees were offering a major prospect for Bruce.

thats my opinion on it. If this 10 or so million at the deadline was saved to eventually re-invest maybe next year. Then the deal is fine by me. Most of these prospects don't make it but if the 5 million gives them more flexibility to add quality pieces next year or go after a big time free agent (cain, martinez, moustakas). Maybe it would make more sense...

In comment 13554618 mphbullet36 said:

Quote:

In comment 13554594 Deej said: Quote: they'll put more payroll in midseason when we're contending, but save money when the season is a stinker. So be it, it's a business. Im pretty doubtful that the Yankees were offering a major prospect for Bruce. thats my opinion on it. If this 10 or so million at the deadline was saved to eventually re-invest maybe next year. Then the deal is fine by me. Most of these prospects don't make it but if the 5 million gives them more flexibility to add quality pieces next year or go after a big time free agent (cain, martinez, moustakas). Maybe it would make more sense...

The money "saved" has zero impact on next years payroll. That's 2017 savings only. Trading Bruce has absolutely no impact on 2018 FA's.

In comment 13554618 mphbullet36 said:

Quote:

In comment 13554594 Deej said: Quote: they'll put more payroll in midseason when we're contending, but save money when the season is a stinker. So be it, it's a business. Im pretty doubtful that the Yankees were offering a major prospect for Bruce. thats my opinion on it. If this 10 or so million at the deadline was saved to eventually re-invest maybe next year. Then the deal is fine by me. Most of these prospects don't make it but if the 5 million gives them more flexibility to add quality pieces next year or go after a big time free agent (cain, martinez, moustakas). Maybe it would make more sense...

The Mets (and most teams) treat each year as a different fiscal period. For instance the money "saved" on Wright this year won't be "added" to next years payroll, it's simply savings on this year. Trading Duda saves them 2017 money, Bruce etc. They don't suddenly "have" more money for 2018. That's only the case if they trade 2018 commitments.

why did the Mets move Conlon to the pen? innings?

Whether it's free agents or bringing in contracts via trade. Absolutely no excuse, especially with all the money coming off the books in the offseason and the savings from trades and Wright's insurance this season

In comment 13554619 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

In comment 13554618 mphbullet36 said: Quote: In comment 13554594 Deej said: Quote: they'll put more payroll in midseason when we're contending, but save money when the season is a stinker. So be it, it's a business. Im pretty doubtful that the Yankees were offering a major prospect for Bruce. thats my opinion on it. If this 10 or so million at the deadline was saved to eventually re-invest maybe next year. Then the deal is fine by me. Most of these prospects don't make it but if the 5 million gives them more flexibility to add quality pieces next year or go after a big time free agent (cain, martinez, moustakas). Maybe it would make more sense... The money "saved" has zero impact on next years payroll. That's 2017 savings only. Trading Bruce has absolutely no impact on 2018 FA's.

you say it like its a fact. If I made 10 more million dollars this year I would be more comfortable to spend more next year. Its basic financials. If the Wilpons took a loss last year they might not be willing to spend as much.

I get it the return was amazing and just because the yankees were willing to give up two unnamed players (we have no idea if they were in the yankees top 30 prospects either).

But to say it like its fact is simply off. Financial savings can only help in the future whether the spend it or not. Unless your assuming the mets are going to us the 10 million they saved on other ventures. Which I guess is possible but YOU or I don't know that.

In comment 13554623 Rflairr said:

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Whether it's free agents or bringing in contracts via trade. Absolutely no excuse, especially with all the money coming off the books in the offseason and the savings from trades and Wright's insurance this season

the spent the last to deadlines (cespedes and bruce). When they were contending. I see it no differently. They subtracted now that they aren't contending...

In comment 13554621 pjcas18 said:

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why did the Mets move Conlon to the pen? innings?

PJ, yeah he's getting up there in innings for the season. And obvious no reason to push it in a lost season

a realistic acquisition next year? Zero to nothing for 3bs in the pipeline which leads me to believe its Flores or a FA next year.

Or Cabrera

In comment 13554549 Shecky said:

Quote:

It's pretty simple and will make sense The Mets are a business Prospects are an asset Salary is a liability Not paying a salary is an asset Draft picks are assets Each of the above have a value. A dollar value assigned to it. Bruce's salary is say $4mm. Any production from him is valueless since it blocks a Nimmo, and any extra wins are worthless. Or negative ;) The comp pick they get for Bruce would be worth say $4-5mm. So not getting the comp pick is equal to his salary. Literally almost a wash. Point being. If team Y offers an additional prospect who you value as worth $1mm. But that team asks you to pick up $2mm of salary. Do the math. Hope that helps

If this is so simple than how did you fuck up your valuation of a 2nd/3rd round comp pick? So the $4MM on 2 months Bruce's salary in a lost year is "a wash" with gaining a potential superstar (2nd round pick) that you only have to pay ~$750K per year x 5 years (total $4MM, spread over 5 years) ??

Glad you're not managing my money, friend.

If the thought process had been they were certain Bruce would accept the QO, and they preferred to spend the money elsewhere and move Conforto to RF next year - fine, i can accept that logic ... but even then, why wasnt Bruce traded a month ago when you'd get more than this in return?

And PS. I'd trade or try to trade Cespedes before letting Bruce walk, but that's me. Bruce is a better all around baseball player, the other guy is a body-builder.

More money in Wilpon's pocket. We do know that the two prospects from the Yankees were players teams did ask about at trade deadline. Combined with the underwhelming haul for Addison Reed because the Mets wanted teams to eat the rest of his salary I have zero confidence that any savings will be applied to future seasons. I wish the Wilpons would sell to someone interested in winning or at least committing to spend money on Draft and prospects as Mets left a substantial sum on the table while taking college Senior relievers in Rounds 6-10

In comment 13554627 Rory said:

Quote:

a realistic acquisition next year? Zero to nothing for 3bs in the pipeline which leads me to believe its Flores or a FA next year. Or Cabrera

Almost certainly out of their "comfort zone" price wise but who knows?

funny part is if rumors of this team's valuation are true, the Wilpon's should sell now even if they were good owners in good financial standing.

Next cable deal, combined with (IMO) unsustainable ticket prices and who knows what changes will be made to the corporate tax code (continued ability to write off entertainment expenses??) -- should hopefully wack baseball revenues and growth outlook substantially.

This is one of the few times I have to disagree with you. I don't believe you can look at it as a fiscal year of spending. Any savings in salary this year could be applied for next year's future free agents, especially for a one year contract.

To me, the savings in salary does not look like the motivating factor for taking the deal from the Indians instead of the Yankee deal. However, I understand the other point of view.

In comment 13554624 mphbullet36 said:

Quote:

In comment 13554619 DanMetroMan said: Quote: In comment 13554618 mphbullet36 said: Quote: In comment 13554594 Deej said: Quote: they'll put more payroll in midseason when we're contending, but save money when the season is a stinker. So be it, it's a business. Im pretty doubtful that the Yankees were offering a major prospect for Bruce. thats my opinion on it. If this 10 or so million at the deadline was saved to eventually re-invest maybe next year. Then the deal is fine by me. Most of these prospects don't make it but if the 5 million gives them more flexibility to add quality pieces next year or go after a big time free agent (cain, martinez, moustakas). Maybe it would make more sense... The money "saved" has zero impact on next years payroll. That's 2017 savings only. Trading Bruce has absolutely no impact on 2018 FA's. you say it like its a fact. If I made 10 more million dollars this year I would be more comfortable to spend more next year. Its basic financials. If the Wilpons took a loss last year they might not be willing to spend as much. I get it the return was amazing and just because the yankees were willing to give up two unnamed players (we have no idea if they were in the yankees top 30 prospects either). But to say it like its fact is simply off. Financial savings can only help in the future whether the spend it or not. Unless your assuming the mets are going to us the 10 million they saved on other ventures. Which I guess is possible but YOU or I don't know that.

This absolutely is a "fact". You can believe whatever you choose to but don't you think we would see teams "praised" for dumping expiring contracts because they would be "gaining" money to spend next year? In fact we would see teams attaching prospects to expiring contracts if your premise were accurate. Guy is owed 12 million for half a season, a team would attach a prospect to that guy if it meant 12 million to spend the following season. You can believe what you want but I know for an absolute fact the Mets (and other teams) treat payroll on an annual basis. Bruce/Duda etc will have 0.00% impact on 2018 payroll. None. I'm not looking to debate the return on Bruce/Duda. I have no clue what was offered. I do "know" the savings will not impact the 2018 payroll. Not being snarky but speaking from actual insight/information.

"mets better spend this off-season" approach, just because they have money coming off the books and holes in the roster, that's the kind of shit Omar would do. Has to be a good fit or I don't mind patience.

Hate to say it but 2018 is not a force it year. I would minimally add strategically to the 2017 team.

trades are different obviously.

I'd add to the bullpen (no idea if any of the deadline acquisitions are close, but I suspect FA is the way to address this), and look for a legit CF, and possibly a 3B, but none need to be superstars and I wouldn't outbid anyone. And I think the Mets can fill 3B with the current roster.

the 2018 off-season in preparation for 2019 is a different story.

That's when I think the Mets should spend, depending on what happens in the 2018 season and who hits free agency.

obviously Harper and Machado the big names, but there are more interesting names that off-season too.

and while I don't like the fact the Mets dumped contracts for 5 relievers this off-season the thing that pisses me off the most is Merandy Gonzalez, who may amount to be nothing, but that kind of shit puzzles me.

The Mets are the ones disagreeing with you. That's not how they operate. You don't think they would be offering to take back "some" money or add in "meh" prospects to have the "savings" on Walker, Cabrera, etc? It would be a no brainer. Let's say Walker and Cabrera are owed a combined 10 million. The Mets would surely "kick in" 3-4 million to "save" 10 (they would come out ahead) for 2018 spending. Hey don't ask me, Shecky will the Bruce:Duda "savings" be added money for the 2018?

PS if the Mets dumping money this year impacted the 2018 payroll they would be lauded for it. Other teams would proactively dump salaries of expiring contracts in order to have additional 2018 payroll

Never even seen ZGiants (100% not a swipe just a reference to him being a ""defend the Mets" guy ever make a claim that dumping expiring contracts would add money for next year. Not once. That's a new one

Strike again.

Back to another decade of sucking again

Uceta has become a must add to the 40 man to me. Bashlor likely as well. The will likely delay calling up Drew Smith until next year because how many "maybe" MLB reliever prospects can you have on your 40? Callahan must be added so we will (presumably) see him after 9/1. If he's somehow not protected it makes the Reed look very poor and I can't imagine the would risk losing him anyway(potential cheap middle reliever).

Use that money saved to resign Addison please

Added Ramos to replace Reed. They won't be going after multi year expensive relievers

Your wife talks you into spending a little extra. You get the house on the beach. Rented a boat for a day, jet skis, etc. whole week is well planned - and cost a little more than you wanted to. But let's go for it, forecast calls for great weather and a once in a lifetime trip.

First day, you catch a cold. Second day, it rains. Third day - your leg gets amputated. Someone offers you a $100 to take that $1,000 boat rental off your hands. You happily take it, it's an extra $100 and that boat ride is useless to you now.

Do you look at that $100 as $100 less you spent on a wasted vacation? Or do you keep it in your top drawer and saw "cool, I got an extra hundred bucks to spend on next years vacation"?

In comment 13554649 spike said:

Quote:

Use that money saved to resign Addison please

What in the Mets history suggests they will offer any reliever a multi year, high dollar contract?

Secondly, the purpose of stockpiling arms is the intention of building a "deep and cheap" pen for years to come.

In comment 13554660 Shecky said:

Quote:

In comment 13554649 spike said: Quote: Use that money saved to resign Addison please What in the Mets history suggests they will offer any reliever a multi year, high dollar contract? Secondly, the purpose of stockpiling arms is the intention of building a "deep and cheap" pen for years to come.

One of the really strange "issues" with this FO has been bullpen construction given most of the best pens were built with hard throwing bat missing kids aka inexpensive. They finally seem to be realizing this.im not big on Ramos and I hope they add at least 1-2 guys with some level of success but the pen issues could be "fixed" soon enough

views the value of the prospect is one thing.

That Sandy hasn't been good at valuation of relief pitchers is also pretty relevant.

In comment 13554582 chopperhatch said:

Quote:

FWIW, I personally did not want the Yanks to give up ANY decent prospects for Bruce. I dont think there are many fans who wanted Bruce in exchange for prospects either. So lets not get all hyoed up thinking that the Mets out maneuvered the Yankees. They didnt and Yankee fans are pretty glad the Mets turned down that offer. The last thing the Yankees need is another power hitter who hits under .260

BA is the most overrated stat in baseball. Bruce has an .840 OPS in a tough hitters park. He would have killed at YS. Yanks should have eaten the salary.

In comment 13554658 Shecky said:

Quote:

Your wife talks you into spending a little extra. You get the house on the beach. Rented a boat for a day, jet skis, etc. whole week is well planned - and cost a little more than you wanted to. But let's go for it, forecast calls for great weather and a once in a lifetime trip. First day, you catch a cold. Second day, it rains. Third day - your leg gets amputated. Someone offers you a $100 to take that $1,000 boat rental off your hands. You happily take it, it's an extra $100 and that boat ride is useless to you now. Do you look at that $100 as $100 less you spent on a wasted vacation? Or do you keep it in your top drawer and saw "cool, I got an extra hundred bucks to spend on next years vacation"?

In this case, this ownership group looks at it in the former.
And you appear to provide no value to prospects (which can help future teams at a fraction of the cost), which is bizarre.

Blackham may or may not be interesting but why is he still in Columbia at 24 years old (25 in January) with those numbers?


The following RP are guys to watch as potential big leaguers in the system (I'm not including guys like Dunn who likely end up there but aren't yet)

Uceta (might be the best RP in the system)
Smith
Bashlor
Callahan
Corey Taylor
Nogolsek
Blackham (fully admit I'm going 100% on numbers with him, oddly very little info on him)
Bautista
McGeorge

not going to happen because of rotation ??? but I think Flexen might make for a nice 7th inning option.

In comment 13554672 Section331 said:

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In comment 13554582 chopperhatch said: Quote: FWIW, I personally did not want the Yanks to give up ANY decent prospects for Bruce. I dont think there are many fans who wanted Bruce in exchange for prospects either. So lets not get all hyoed up thinking that the Mets out maneuvered the Yankees. They didnt and Yankee fans are pretty glad the Mets turned down that offer. The last thing the Yankees need is another power hitter who hits under .260 BA is the most overrated stat in baseball. Bruce has an .840 OPS in a tough hitters park. He would have killed at YS. Yanks should have eaten the salary.

Haha. Gotta love all the Mets fans trying to point at the Yankees for blowing this. Nobody knows what prospects were involved so saying one side or the other "should have done this or that" is ridiculous. I'm going to go ahead and trust Cashman on this. If he didn't feel it was worth giving up whichever prospects the Mets were asking for AND paying the entire salary, so be it. Let me know who the prospects were and then I'll choose sides.

In comment 13554675 MetsAreBack said:

Quote:

In comment 13554658 Shecky said: Quote: Your wife talks you into spending a little extra. You get the house on the beach. Rented a boat for a day, jet skis, etc. whole week is well planned - and cost a little more than you wanted to. But let's go for it, forecast calls for great weather and a once in a lifetime trip. First day, you catch a cold. Second day, it rains. Third day - your leg gets amputated. Someone offers you a $100 to take that $1,000 boat rental off your hands. You happily take it, it's an extra $100 and that boat ride is useless to you now. Do you look at that $100 as $100 less you spent on a wasted vacation? Or do you keep it in your top drawer and saw "cool, I got an extra hundred bucks to spend on next years vacation"? In this case, this ownership group looks at it in the former. And you appear to provide no value to prospects (which can help future teams at a fraction of the cost), which is bizarre.

Good point. A $50 Mobil gift card for gas money had to be thrown in to seal the deal

How and why did the "Yankee thing" get out there almost immediately after the trade was done. Happened twice in a month. Hmmmmmmm

Making noise

In comment 13554627 Rory said:

Quote:

a realistic acquisition next year? Zero to nothing for 3bs in the pipeline which leads me to believe its Flores or a FA next year. Or Cabrera

No they still want you to foolishly believe David Wright is coming back

find it hard to believe the Mets would avoid adding a "real" 3b because of Wright but it sure is another issue with him "sort of" being around.

but I think the idea is if 2017 is a stinker, with late season revenues probably declining below expectations b/c of lower turnout, then the Wilpons will make less profit or even lose money for 2017. If that happens they (or any owner) would be gunshy about spending the next year. But if they can get out of some contracts and save $10 million in a non-competitive season to offset reduced revenues, then maybe they feel more comfortable spending in 2018 -- because there is an acknowledgment that they're not stuck with payroll just because they started the season with it.

Lost in all this is the question of whether the Yankees prospects were worth 4 million more than the Indians prospect. 4 million isnt a ton of money for a prospect (look at what Cubans sign for), but it's not chump change. I wonder whether, in an average team prospect pool, how many prospects would net you 4 million in a trade. That is, taking the 15th best farm system, what # prospect would cause another team to take the prospect and eat the salary in a trade.

Also, were the Yankees asking the Mets to eat the whole salary?

12th rounder Bryce Hutchinson posted video of his first pro bullpen session


Link - ( New Window )

In comment 13554689 Shecky said:

Quote:

How and why did the "Yankee thing" get out there almost immediately after the trade was done. Happened twice in a month. Hmmmmmmm

that thought def occurred to me as well.

I hope their season crashes and burns

In comment 13554696 Deej said:

Quote:

but I think the idea is if 2017 is a stinker, with late season revenues probably declining below expectations b/c of lower turnout, then the Wilpons will make less profit or even lose money for 2017. If that happens they (or any owner) would be gunshy about spending the next year. But if they can get out of some contracts and save $10 million in a non-competitive season to offset reduced revenues, then maybe they feel more comfortable spending in 2018 -- because there is an acknowledgment that they're not stuck with payroll just because they started the season with it. Lost in all this is the question of whether the Yankees prospects were worth 4 million more than the Indians prospect. 4 million isnt a ton of money for a prospect (look at what Cubans sign for), but it's not chump change. I wonder whether, in an average team prospect pool, how many prospects would net you 4 million in a trade. That is, taking the 15th best farm system, what # prospect would cause another team to take the prospect and eat the salary in a trade. Also, were the Yankees asking the Mets to eat the whole salary?

Deej, per Sherman the Yankees wanted the Mets to eat a "piece" of the owed money.

"The Yankees were not only one of those teams, they had agreed to send the two prospects requested by the Mets in exchange for the Mets eating a piece of the roughly $5 million Bruce was owed the rest of the season."

In comment 13554689 Shecky said:

Quote:

How and why did the "Yankee thing" get out there almost immediately after the trade was done. Happened twice in a month. Hmmmmmmm

Easy, they wanted to rub the Mets noses in it after we dealt with their rivals and not them. Doesn't mean it's not true that they had better offers though. Especially given how aggressive they were in other trades.

.

In comment 13554696 Deej said:

Quote:

but I think the idea is if 2017 is a stinker, with late season revenues probably declining below expectations b/c of lower turnout, then the Wilpons will make less profit or even lose money for 2017. If that happens they (or any owner) would be gunshy about spending the next year. But if they can get out of some contracts and save $10 million in a non-competitive season to offset reduced revenues, then maybe they feel more comfortable spending in 2018 -- because there is an acknowledgment that they're not stuck with payroll just because they started the season with it. Lost in all this is the question of whether the Yankees prospects were worth 4 million more than the Indians prospect. 4 million isnt a ton of money for a prospect (look at what Cubans sign for), but it's not chump change. I wonder whether, in an average team prospect pool, how many prospects would net you 4 million in a trade. That is, taking the 15th best farm system, what # prospect would cause another team to take the prospect and eat the salary in a trade. Also, were the Yankees asking the Mets to eat the whole salary?

I agree with your thinking but I think your numbers are off. Unless I'm wrong, Bruce has $3.7M left and the Yankees were "allegedly" willing to throw in around $1.5M. So it's more a matter of if the Mets thought the two prospects were worth $2M rather than 4. If reports are true, that is.

In comment 13554703 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

In comment 13554689 Shecky said: Quote: How and why did the "Yankee thing" get out there almost immediately after the trade was done. Happened twice in a month. Hmmmmmmm Easy, they wanted to rub the Mets noses in it after we dealt with their rivals and not them. Doesn't mean it's not true that they had better offers though. Especially given how aggressive they were in other trades.

It stinks, that's all I'm saying ;)
Think about the timing of the quote. That's the key

In comment 13554695 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

find it hard to believe the Mets would avoid adding a "real" 3b because of Wright but it sure is another issue with him "sort of" being around.

I was wrong about Valbuena, but I'd happily take him off their hands for next season.

that the Yankees would throw in good/decent prospects over a couple million. Though i have not analyzed their luxury cap situation.

Mid market teams - yes i can see that... but Yankees/Sox one would think would be more reluctant to part with prospects they gave an iota shit about over ~3 million.

In comment 13554707 BigBlueShock said:

Quote:

I agree with your thinking but I think your numbers are off. Unless I'm wrong, Bruce has $3.7M left and the Yankees were "allegedly" willing to throw in around $1.5M. So it's more a matter of if the Mets thought the two prospects were worth $2M rather than 4. If reports are true, that is.

I was speaking bigger picture. Bruce, Reed, and others. Obviously as a fan I wish they're treat everything as money is no object, but I cant demand that. If they feel like the right move is to trade off contracts for less of a return that they'd get if they retained $$ in a stinker season, that's fine. It incentivizes future spending IMO. And it's just the other side of the willingness spending more at the trading deadline when you're in contention.

In comment 13554703 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

In comment 13554689 Shecky said: Quote: How and why did the "Yankee thing" get out there almost immediately after the trade was done. Happened twice in a month. Hmmmmmmm Easy, they wanted to rub the Mets noses in it after we dealt with their rivals and not them. Doesn't mean it's not true that they had better offers though. Especially given how aggressive they were in other trades.

How do you know the Yankees are the ones leaking these reports?

of on topic but Dave Cameron did a piece on prospect valuations based on the FG tools chart the #1 prospect in baseball (at the time) Moncada was worth 107 million (Rosario 70 million for those curious).

In comment 13554710 Shecky said:

Quote:

In comment 13554695 DanMetroMan said: Quote: find it hard to believe the Mets would avoid adding a "real" 3b because of Wright but it sure is another issue with him "sort of" being around. I was wrong about Valbuena, but I'd happily take him off their hands for next season.

He's been horrendous but at 1 year 8.5 million that's likely the kind of guy they look at (which is also why I think Cabrera might return).

In comment 13554712 MetsAreBack said:

Quote:

that the Yankees would throw in good/decent prospects over a couple million. Though i have not analyzed their luxury cap situation. Mid market teams - yes i can see that... but Yankees/Sox one would think would be more reluctant to part with prospects they gave an iota shit about over ~3 million.

The Yankees have been dying to get under the tax threshold for years now and probably will be able to do it next season. They also have an incredibly deep farm system now. Other organizations might have a little more high-end talent in the minors, but guys in the 30-50 range for the Yankees could be in the top 30 in many organizations.

than Flores. He's had an .800 OPS over the last 2 seasons and will have played about 100 games in each year. His defense hurts him I suppose and I certainly wouldn't be opposed to bringing in someone to compete with him, just not sure it's the best use of $80-100M it will likely take to get Moustakas. Not that we should expect the Mets to give that much out to any one player. Too bad they've somewhat soured on Cabrera, he'd be a really good insurance policy.

In comment 13554548 ZGiants98 said:

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doesn't mean Sandy liked them more. The only thing confirmed is that the Yankees offered to eat some of the 3 million. The rest is all assumption, leading, or guesswork likely based on the Wilpons history.

gotta say...you're an optimist often. you may or may not have earned a lame nickname yet. But does it strike you as amazing how many people read this:

1 million paid and 2 prospects
or
4 millio and 1 prospect

and proceed to go on a rant and rave about the cheapness of the owner...without having even the slightest idea of which prospects Alderson turned down for money instead.


the point is, this is not the fucking owner. this is not the fucking gm. this is called bad luck and a decision made to not put out an offer sheet for a guy who takes up a space, may not have wanted to sign anything long term here, had a no trade to certain clubs, is not worth the 4 mil to pay the rest of the year if they have already long given up (i still don't get completely giving up in game 70 just because fans and kevin kernan have).

i wanted the guy to stay. How many players come here and are actaully not thrilled to be, but proceed to rake on pace for 35hr without the expected lineup protetion he should have had? Free agents and power hitting free agents come here to rot and die. Not have their best seasons. Hell if he was smart he WOULD want to stay. But now a CF replacement is an interesting thought. And its only that IF they can get homers from 1B, 3B, C, and even some from 2B. It's mindboggling how D'Arnaud has clearly shown stretches of having legit hitting ability and yet that OBP is so vile on a team that would like him to bump that by 50 points. Then again i remember the ravenous true anger at the loss of future HoF 1st ballot catcher Jonathan LuCroy

Putting aside the "they are the mets" nonsense....how is it that contending teams didnt find Jay Bruce to be a clear upgrade to one spot?

In comment 13554722 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

than Flores. He's had an .800 OPS over the last 2 seasons and will have played about 100 games in each year. His defense hurts him I suppose and I certainly wouldn't be opposed to bringing in someone to compete with him, just not sure it's the best use of $80-100M it will likely take to get Moustakas. Not that we should expect the Mets to give that much out to any one player. Too bad they've somewhat soured on Cabrera, he'd be a really good insurance policy.

The only reason I routinely "ignore" Flores as a 3b option is the Mets seemingly don't see him as an every day 3b. I'd be more than fine naming Wilmer the 3b and keeping Cabrera.

being speculated that ex-Met farm hand Luis Cessa was the lesser of 2 prospects the Mets would have received for Bruce from the Yankees.

for an extended look somewhere other than SS over the past couple years. I imagine it's just his defense is that bad in the eyes of the coaches because he's a pretty big negative everywhere according to the metrics.

In comment 13554715 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

of on topic but Dave Cameron did a piece on prospect valuations based on the FG tools chart the #1 prospect in baseball (at the time) Moncada was worth 107 million (Rosario 70 million for those curious).

But in the real world Ynoa was sold for next to nothing and Ramos, a recent third rounder, was traded for the ABILITY to spend money. Uber prospects are worth $$ due to the early years of 'surplus value' or at least expected surplus value. In the real world fringe prospects are sold for pennies

a total BSer but incarcerated Bob claims the Yankees offered Domingo Germen and Luis Medina.

In comment 13554733 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

for an extended look somewhere other than SS over the past couple years. I imagine it's just his defense is that bad in the eyes of the coaches because he's a pretty big negative everywhere according to the metrics.

Yeah like I said, sometimes when I don't consider guys for roles it's just about how the Mets seemingly perceive them. That said for all I know they hire a guy like Hale or Acta or whomever and the guy loves Wilmer.

In comment 13554682 BigBlueShock said:

Quote:

Haha. Gotta love all the Mets fans trying to point at the Yankees for blowing this. Nobody knows what prospects were involved so saying one side or the other "should have done this or that" is ridiculous. I'm going to go ahead and trust Cashman on this. If he didn't feel it was worth giving up whichever prospects the Mets were asking for AND paying the entire salary, so be it. Let me know who the prospects were and then I'll choose sides.

That's fair, and I suppose one could infer that I implied that the Yanks "blew it", but that wasn't my intent. I completely agree that there are plenty of reasons for Cash to turn the deal down, but meant to say that Bruce would be terrific at YS. Bat him behind Judge, and look out!

In comment 13554737 Shecky said:

Quote:

In comment 13554715 DanMetroMan said: Quote: of on topic but Dave Cameron did a piece on prospect valuations based on the FG tools chart the #1 prospect in baseball (at the time) Moncada was worth 107 million (Rosario 70 million for those curious). But in the real world Ynoa was sold for next to nothing and Ramos, a recent third rounder, was traded for the ABILITY to spend money. Uber prospects are worth $$ due to the early years of 'surplus value' or at least expected surplus value. In the real world fringe prospects are sold for pennies

Just not the Mets way but I'd love to see them try and lock up Conforto and Rosario long term. Might bring some good will the way Wright/Reyes initial deals did.

And allegedly turned down the deal over what, $1.x million? I had no idea they were so tight now.

Because once again the Wilson's screwed us, but corporations absolutely take prior year revenue into consideration for future year budgets. For instance the Mets revenue is clearly declining and their P/L is going to be way off expected mark. The decision on next years payroll will with out a doubt be based off of that expected PL, to think otherwise just ignores logic. That's not to say that we have 4 million so let's add 4 million, but more here is what expenses were last year how can we operate at Xx return moving forward. That is a long winded way of saying it's definitely included in calculation.

out of spite(sure seems that way), then the Yankees have every right to let that be known.

would have been significant upgrades over Ryder Ryan. Ryan may have upside, but he's a low A reliever. Cessa and German are both MLB-ready relievers with late-inning upside. The Mets aren't punting next year, either could be useful pieces.

Bruce. He's a very streaky hitter who can carry an offense for periods of time, but also looks lost for periods of time. Headley is looking really good at 1B, Bird is due back soon, Cooper looks like a major league hitter to me and I wouldn't just write off his minor league success. Holliday is going to have a role. I would take Bruce, but I wouldn't give up any good prospects for him.

In comment 13554762 schabadoo said:

Quote:

And allegedly turned down the deal over what, $1.x million? I had no idea they were so tight now.

And another guy pointing the finger at the Yankees without knowing any details. Cashman has been very active adding players in recent weeks. Yet, he's "so tight now"? Jeezus

In comment 13554766 bhill410 said:

Quote:

Because once again the Wilson's screwed us, but corporations absolutely take prior year revenue into consideration for future year budgets. For instance the Mets revenue is clearly declining and their P/L is going to be way off expected mark. The decision on next years payroll will with out a doubt be based off of that expected PL, to think otherwise just ignores logic. That's not to say that we have 4 million so let's add 4 million, but more here is what expenses were last year how can we operate at Xx return moving forward. That is a long winded way of saying it's definitely included in calculation.

The Mets will NOT be spending 4 million more than they planned in 2018 because they traded Jay Bruce this season. Again if that were the case they would EAT money to dump all expiring deals to "save" if they at money on Granderson, Walker etc they would come out "ahead" in savings. Every team would dump all expiring deals and would be lauded for adding "money" for next years payroll and they are not.

Walker is owed about 5 million, Granderson about 3, Cabrera about 5. If the Mets were going to use "now" money toward 2018 payroll then they they would kick in money in order to save money. Let's say those 3 are owed 13 million, if the Mets "ate" 5 to move them they they would have 8 million "more" to spend next season? No, that's not the way they operate nor how other teams operate.

Mets opened the season 12th in payroll. 155 million, for context the Cardinals were 14th at 152, Cubs 8th at 172 so the Mets were roughly middle of the pack in spending. I expect the 2018 payroll to be closer to 130 million

You just discovered a new MoneyBall Dan lol

In comment 13554790 Shecky said:

Quote:

You just discovered a new MoneyBall Dan lol

It does seem like there is some sort of market correction going on where power bats without secondary skills are viewed as marginal and sadly for the Mets the view that "pitchers break" is becoming more and more accepted. I think the primary reason the Mets have taken a step back is the draft/unable to fill holes internally. Now that wouldn't have saved the Mets season given what happened to the rotation but it would have given them a chance. Instead there was "nothing" to fill in the gaps and that will continue to be an issue in 2018 where there isn't a ton of MLB ready help on the way.

Less than what they were going to spend. From what I read the Mets have a wonky system (not shocking) where the wilpons don't give hard budgets anyway, but to say that a company doesn't take last years profits and losses into account for future estimation just is ignoring reality. Not trying to sound like a deek but that just isn't how things function.

would have been something centered around Reed and Duda to the Yanks.

The Yanks opted for the White Sox package which included the additional reliever.

They definitely do not like dealing with one another.

In comment 13554798 bhill410 said:

Quote:

Less than what they were going to spend. From what I read the Mets have a wonky system (not shocking) where the wilpons don't give hard budgets anyway, but to say that a company doesn't take last years profits and losses into account for future estimation just is ignoring reality. Not trying to sound like a deek but that just isn't how things function.

My point is they don't take 3.7 million saved on Jay Bruce and say "okay we have more money to spend next season". As I said then every team in baseball would eat "some" money to save the rest of it. We'd see salary dumps en masse.

is ugly
Link - ( New Window )

In comment 13554802 DanMetroMan said:

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is ugly Link - ( New Window )

Too soon to tell? Alonso might be thebest of the bunch

In comment 13554812 spike said:

Quote:

In comment 13554802 DanMetroMan said: Quote: is ugly Link - ( New Window ) Too soon to tell? Alonso might be thebest of the bunch

2016 they took a bunch of low upside college players. Not really the "let it play out" types. Returns have been quite poor. Alonso/Dunn/Kay are the guys we have to hope for but it's part of the reason they don't have much on the way for 2018.

In comment 13554817 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

In comment 13554812 spike said: Quote: In comment 13554802 DanMetroMan said: Quote: is ugly Link - ( New Window ) Too soon to tell? Alonso might be thebest of the bunch 2016 they took a bunch of low upside college players. Not really the "let it play out" types. Returns have been quite poor. Alonso/Dunn/Kay are the guys we have to hope for but it's part of the reason they don't have much on the way for 2018.

Theyve been very disappointing, as are the 2015 draftees. Why did we give up a first rd pick for fucking Cuddyer?

In comment 13554817 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

In comment 13554812 spike said: Quote: In comment 13554802 DanMetroMan said: Quote: is ugly Link - ( New Window ) Too soon to tell? Alonso might be thebest of the bunch 2016 they took a bunch of low upside college players. Not really the "let it play out" types. Returns have been quite poor. Alonso/Dunn/Kay are the guys we have to hope for but it's part of the reason they don't have much on the way for 2018.

Didn't they do the same thing in 2017, other than Vientos in the 2nd the first 10 rounds were all college players, mostly 22 - 23 years old already.

no clue about the "low upside", but when your first round pick projects as a reliever not much to get excited about (though he did strike out 20 batters in a college game, so there's that).

I do like that Vientos signed though.

In comment 13554715 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

of on topic but Dave Cameron did a piece on prospect valuations based on the FG tools chart the #1 prospect in baseball (at the time) Moncada was worth 107 million (Rosario 70 million for those curious).

Here it is. Not sure I buy it. Grade 45 prospects are worth $11-13 million? Grade 45 prospects are a dime a dozen. The notion that teams with twenty grade 45 prospects have a quarter-billion dollars in prospect value sitting in the minors is nonsense to me.
Link - ( New Window )

they went "safe" in 2017 but part of that was to give Vientos money but they also took some more interesting talents. Dibrell, Renteria (he's been terrible but huge arm), Hutchinson, Peden and Schneider were all reasonably high picks that could be interesting. 2016 they took a ton of low upside "maybe utility" players high and so far it's been ugly

think Peterson remains a SP, his upside we shall see but he might surprise.

We get the fifth overall pick in the 2018 draft to get a legit prospect

You've traded Duda and Bruce. Bring him up and let him play. I don't get it

First baseman

In comment 13554828 Deej said:

Quote:

In comment 13554715 DanMetroMan said: Quote: of on topic but Dave Cameron did a piece on prospect valuations based on the FG tools chart the #1 prospect in baseball (at the time) Moncada was worth 107 million (Rosario 70 million for those curious). Here it is. Not sure I buy it. Grade 45 prospects are worth $11-13 million? Grade 45 prospects are a dime a dozen. The notion that teams with twenty grade 45 prospects have a quarter-billion dollars in prospect value sitting in the minors is nonsense to me. Link - ( New Window )

a 45 would probably fall just outside the top 100 prospects in the game. Say 100-150 range. Literally all you need that prospect to turn into is a TJ Rivera for a year or two. A 6th inning BP arm for a couple years. That's worth "$12mm" in surplus value. Not sure if that makes sense or not, but hope it's helpful

Give him a chance at 3b?

If that prospect can be a bench player and avoid the need to buy a Salas or De Aza etc. You saved the team several million each season.

In comment 13554858 spike said:

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Give him a chance at 3b?

He can't make the throws to be a 3b

In comment 13554850 Rflairr said:

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You've traded Duda and Bruce. Bring him up and let him play. I don't get it

He's been slumping

In comment 13554862 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

In comment 13554858 spike said: Quote: Give him a chance at 3b? He can't make the throws to be a 3b

He might as well be traded away because we have too many 2b's and zero third baseman

.

In comment 13554865 spike said:

Quote:

In comment 13554862 DanMetroMan said: Quote: In comment 13554858 spike said: Quote: Give him a chance at 3b? He can't make the throws to be a 3b He might as well be traded away because we have too many 2b's and zero third baseman

He's had a really poor year. No real upside to dealing him. Return wouldn't be much. Hope for a bounceback.

In comment 13554855 Shecky said:

Quote:

In comment 13554828 Deej said: Quote: In comment 13554715 DanMetroMan said: Quote: of on topic but Dave Cameron did a piece on prospect valuations based on the FG tools chart the #1 prospect in baseball (at the time) Moncada was worth 107 million (Rosario 70 million for those curious). Here it is. Not sure I buy it. Grade 45 prospects are worth $11-13 million? Grade 45 prospects are a dime a dozen. The notion that teams with twenty grade 45 prospects have a quarter-billion dollars in prospect value sitting in the minors is nonsense to me. Link - ( New Window ) a 45 would probably fall just outside the top 100 prospects in the game. Say 100-150 range. Literally all you need that prospect to turn into is a TJ Rivera for a year or two. A 6th inning BP arm for a couple years. That's worth "$12mm" in surplus value. Not sure if that makes sense or not, but hope it's helpful

MLB.com has the Mets #9 prospect as a 45. But also our #30 prospect. 45 seems to me to be a catchall rating.

In 1994 over 100 games

And No current Mets aside from Reyes and Cab can play third properly

looking to knock Cecchini but he's having a poor year with the bat and his arm is stretched even at SS, you really don't want to see him playing 3b for the 2018 Mets.

In comment 13554884 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

looking to knock Cecchini but he's having a poor year with the bat and his arm is stretched even at SS, you really don't want to see him playing 3b for the 2018 Mets.

How the heck was he drafted in the first round? Right behind Addison Russell

In comment 13554889 spike said:

Quote:

In comment 13554884 DanMetroMan said: Quote: looking to knock Cecchini but he's having a poor year with the bat and his arm is stretched even at SS, you really don't want to see him playing 3b for the 2018 Mets. How the heck was he drafted in the first round? Right behind Addison Russell

I didnt really like the pick at the time. I think they thought of him as a gamer, and in particular a "safe" pick. But there is no such thing as a safe pick.

In comment 13554889 spike said:

Quote:

In comment 13554884 DanMetroMan said: Quote: looking to knock Cecchini but he's having a poor year with the bat and his arm is stretched even at SS, you really don't want to see him playing 3b for the 2018 Mets. How the heck was he drafted in the first round? Right behind Addison Russell

Because he would cost less than slot and the thought was he would at least be a sure bet to turn into a Major League caliber utility player. Think Asdrubal Cabrera with less power.

In comment 13554895 Mike in NY said:

Quote:

In comment 13554889 spike said: Quote: In comment 13554884 DanMetroMan said: Quote: looking to knock Cecchini but he's having a poor year with the bat and his arm is stretched even at SS, you really don't want to see him playing 3b for the 2018 Mets. How the heck was he drafted in the first round? Right behind Addison Russell Because he would cost less than slot and the thought was he would at least be a sure bet to turn into a Major League caliber utility player. Think Asdrubal Cabrera with less power.

Better yet. They couldve drafted Corey Seager

any MLB draft, it's such a crapshoot even in the first round, but when you draft a guy at 12 who projects to maybe a utility player I think it's time to retire.

My guess is that half the players in the 1st round of the 2012 draft haven't reached the majors and maybe they won't (though HS picks are still young enough).

But, and this is just my philosophy, but I'd almost 100% of the time roll the dice on a high upside guy and have him fail than use pick 12 on a guy that "may become a utility player"

In comment 13554904 pjcas18 said:

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any MLB draft, it's such a crapshoot even in the first round, but when you draft a guy at 12 who projects to maybe a utility player I think it's time to retire. My guess is that half the players in the 1st round of the 2012 draft haven't reached the majors and maybe they won't (though HS picks are still young enough). But, and this is just my philosophy, but I'd almost 100% of the time roll the dice on a high upside guy and have him fail than use pick 12 on a guy that "may become a utility player"

Similarly we just drafted someone in the first rd this year who may project to a ML reliever.

Who does that??? What second rate organization are we rooting for?

promoted from DSL to GCL. Signed for 300K last year

In comment 13554931 spike said:

Quote:

In comment 13554904 pjcas18 said: Quote: any MLB draft, it's such a crapshoot even in the first round, but when you draft a guy at 12 who projects to maybe a utility player I think it's time to retire. My guess is that half the players in the 1st round of the 2012 draft haven't reached the majors and maybe they won't (though HS picks are still young enough). But, and this is just my philosophy, but I'd almost 100% of the time roll the dice on a high upside guy and have him fail than use pick 12 on a guy that "may become a utility player" Similarly we just drafted someone in the first rd this year who may project to a ML reliever. Who does that??? What second rate organization are we rooting for?

Peterson does not project to be a ML reliever. He had success as a starter in college in a good conference and there is no reason to not try him as a starter going forward. Justin Dunn threw harder, but had less of a track record as a starter in a worse conference.

1st rounders: Nimmo, Fulmer, Cecchini, Plawecki, Smith, Conforto, Dunn, Kay, Peterson

2nd rounders: Mazzoni, Reynolds, Stankiewicz, Church, Lindsay, Alonso, Vientos

Prospect evaluators gushed over both of them and neither one amounted to a damned thing.

In comment 13554955 Greg from LI said:

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Prospect evaluators gushed over both of them and neither one amounted to a damned thing.

And Garin was supposed to be the better one and I think he's on the verge of being a career minor leaguer if he's not destined for that already or out of baseball.

Gavin's career path has been a very weird one - he was billed as mostly glove and the main questions were whether he'd be able to hit or not. Then he turned into Chuck Knoblauch in the field but was hitting well over .300 in both Bing and LV (obviously LV you take with a grain of salt, but still...) so then it turned into "well, it looks like he actually CAN hit.. but where do you put him in the field?"

Now he seems to not be able to do either thing all that well and looks like a bust.

He could still turn it around - he's only 23. But kind of a strange arc.

vs. last year there are only 2 stats that are glaringly different - BA and BABIP (his .290 babip is 1 of only 2 regulars on the Vegas roster under .320). His Line drive percentage is the same, his fly ball is a little higher. K rate, walk rate, iso all similar to the last couple years.

Here's his season in a nutshell - he has 30 less singles than last year, same number of XBH and just about everything else. Certainly not ideal for a guy whose best skill is contact, but I'm guessing there's some bad luck in there. Also on the positive side he only has 7 errors at 2b. He's a guy who should be getting a look with the big club the rest of the season.

be clear I'm not giving up on Cecchini but realistically he's more likely a solid utility player than a regular and if he's a regular it's at 2b. 3b would likely be a disaster and the bat isn't good enough to "find out".

The Mets are going to waste September innings on Gorzellany aren't they? #Mets

In comment 13554974 DanMetroMan said:

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be clear I'm not giving up on Cecchini but realistically he's more likely a solid utility player than a regular and if he's a regular it's at 2b. 3b would likely be a disaster and the bat isn't good enough to "find out".

He cant be a utility backup when he only plays one position

In comment 13554979 spike said:

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In comment 13554974 DanMetroMan said: Quote: be clear I'm not giving up on Cecchini but realistically he's more likely a solid utility player than a regular and if he's a regular it's at 2b. 3b would likely be a disaster and the bat isn't good enough to "find out". He cant be a utility backup when he only plays one position

He's played some SS this year, obviously the throwing is probably still an issue but being able to backup SS has value.

In comment 13554979 spike said:

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In comment 13554974 DanMetroMan said: Quote: be clear I'm not giving up on Cecchini but realistically he's more likely a solid utility player than a regular and if he's a regular it's at 2b. 3b would likely be a disaster and the bat isn't good enough to "find out". He cant be a utility backup when he only plays one position

Possibly can play SS, but is stretched there. What Dan said is that if he is going to be a consistent starter at one position the only position that that is likely to be is 2B.

I hadn't really looked much into the peripherals - I wouldn't give up on him completely, either. It just seemed like last year, we were saying hey.. if the guy can find a position to call home, we might have something here. It looked like he was going to become a pretty solid contact hitter.

Haven't abandoned all hope, but this year was definitely not the type of progression we were anticipating.

can flash at SS and maybe your 3rd option at 3B. Maybe you dream big and he's a late developer like Scooter Gennett. But 2b is the spot you hope for. I'm not giving him away or giving up yet but 3b just isn't in the cards.

In comment 13554964 pjcas18 said:

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And Garin was supposed to be the better one and I think he's on the verge of being a career minor leaguer if he's not destined for that already or out of baseball.

Think he's reached that point now. He's stunk it up in AAA with three separate organizations in three years - Boston, Milwaukee last year, KC this year.

People complain about Dolan to the high heavens, but one thing about Dolan is that money is never a question. He's got plenty of faults but he'll spend whatever it takes. Wilpons clearly won't.

2 run homer

In comment 13554904 pjcas18 said:

Quote:

any MLB draft, it's such a crapshoot even in the first round, but when you draft a guy at 12 who projects to maybe a utility player I think it's time to retire. My guess is that half the players in the 1st round of the 2012 draft haven't reached the majors and maybe they won't (though HS picks are still young enough). But, and this is just my philosophy, but I'd almost 100% of the time roll the dice on a high upside guy and have him fail than use pick 12 on a guy that "may become a utility player"

I find that trying to outthink the top of the draft in any sport is usually a mistake. Dont draft for downside, draft for upside.

Im not 100% sure that was Sandy's intent on Ceech. E.g. the Nimmo pick was all upside -- the guy didnt even have a HS team. And there was nothing safe about the Dom Smith pick, as a short, low power 1B. Dom had/has to thread a needle to carve out a successful career.

I just think they were favoring stuff like hustle, eye and approach over pure 5-tool skill at the time.

Grandy for Perrin or Wang might make sense for both sides

upside was always somewhat limited. You can dream on pure tools, much harder to dream on sum of parts types.

Ryan Brodie @ItsChodezzzz
@keithlaw anything positive to say on Ryder ryan

keithlaw Retweeted Ryan Brodie
Teflon Terry can't play him over Conforto

In comment 13555053 Deej said:

Quote:

In comment 13554904 pjcas18 said: Quote: any MLB draft, it's such a crapshoot even in the first round, but when you draft a guy at 12 who projects to maybe a utility player I think it's time to retire. My guess is that half the players in the 1st round of the 2012 draft haven't reached the majors and maybe they won't (though HS picks are still young enough). But, and this is just my philosophy, but I'd almost 100% of the time roll the dice on a high upside guy and have him fail than use pick 12 on a guy that "may become a utility player" I find that trying to outthink the top of the draft in any sport is usually a mistake. Dont draft for downside, draft for upside. Im not 100% sure that was Sandy's intent on Ceech. E.g. the Nimmo pick was all upside -- the guy didnt even have a HS team. And there was nothing safe about the Dom Smith pick, as a short, low power 1B. Dom had/has to thread a needle to carve out a successful career. I just think they were favoring stuff like hustle, eye and approach over pure 5-tool skill at the time.

I had no issues with the Nimmo pick, seemed raw, but uber athletic (allegedly) and while the projection wasn't there, and he wasn't expected to go that high (most mocks had him a the end of the first round) if the Mets scouts saw him as a plus defender, who could play CF with a decent bat go for it.

if he fails he fails a lot of baseball picks fail.

and hind sight is 20/20 with drafts, but when you take a player projected to get 32nd or thereabouts by nearly everyone before the draft at 13 you better know something.

And I don't even want to knock the Mets scouts.

Conforto was a HR, Rosario looks legit, Smith a good pick, Fulmer obviously panned out, and more.

they should know their own players better than the rest of the league and with some of their biggest decisions they've chosen wrong. They chose to deal Fulmer over injured Wheeler. Let Murphy walk for peanuts when Wright was an obvious injury risk at 3rd. Turner non-tendered. Regardless of public opinion or even market value from other teams, the management group on the inner circle of those decisions should not have so many big misses.

Joe and evan mostly Evan just DESTROYED heyman and made him look like a fool omg.

That was pretty funny lol.

Heyman backed up the trade tooth and nail

can now get one of those uber prospects the Yankees wouldn't trade for Bruce, but for Walker.

Quote:

Michael Mayer‏ @mikemayerMMO The Yankees have shown interest in trading for Neil Walker according to @JonHeyman.

this is sarcasm obviously before anyone overreacts, though I do hope the Mets trade Walker, and I don't care even a little bit if it's to the Yankees and Walker has a 2015-Cespedes like stretch run (though that's unlikely).

has taken on the quasi-troll the Mets role on the Mets beat but he also reported the Yankees stuff so I have no reason to doubt Heyman. As to the value of the prospects offered who knows? But unless Carig is ALSO on Boras payroll the Yankees/Mets unwilling to pick up money story has been "collaborated".

about getting rid of Bruce and hopefully Walker is that it lessens the chances of the Mets doing something silly like extending either one a qualifying offer. Given the Mets meager finances, offering $18M for either of these guys in 2018 would stink.

Getting extra playing time to see what we have with Nimmo, Lagares and Flores is a really nice bonus too.

more and more like a rare total misfire (to the tune of 1 million) by the Mets international scouts
Link - ( New Window )

have offered Bruce the QO if they didn't deal him, worst case is another year of a guy hitting 30+ HR's for 17M in RF and Conforto plays CF for a season, best case is he rejects it, signs elsewhere and the Mets get a 2nd round comp pick.

the QO to Bruce was kind of a no-brainer, I don't think there was a chance they'd offer it to Walker, though I have read they may try and work out a short-term deal with him if he's not traded.

In comment 13555184 DanMetroMan said:

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more and more like a rare total misfire (to the tune of 1 million) by the Mets international scouts Link - ( New Window )

Similar to Gregory Guerrero so far who got $1.5M

Maybe the Mets thought they were signing Vlad Jr.

In comment 13555186 pjcas18 said:

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have offered Bruce the QO if they didn't deal him, worst case is another year of a guy hitting 30+ HR's for 17M in RF and Conforto plays CF for a season, best case is he rejects it, signs elsewhere and the Mets get a 2nd round comp pick. the QO to Bruce was kind of a no-brainer, I don't think there was a chance they'd offer it to Walker, though I have read they may try and work out a short-term deal with him if he's not traded.

Walker wont get a QO because he took it last year

The Mets will wait just long enough to call up Smith where we aren't sure if he's ready to take over at 1b to open 2018 #Mets

In comment 13555202 DanMetroMan said:

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The Mets will wait just long enough to call up Smith where we aren't sure if he's ready to take over at 1b to open 2018 #Mets

We got Wilmer as our new 1st baseman

In comment 13555204 spike said:

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In comment 13555202 DanMetroMan said: Quote: The Mets will wait just long enough to call up Smith where we aren't sure if he's ready to take over at 1b to open 2018 #Mets We got Wilmer as our new 1st baseman

It would be a very Mets thing to bring Dom up and have him platoon.

In comment 13555186 pjcas18 said:

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have offered Bruce the QO if they didn't deal him, worst case is another year of a guy hitting 30+ HR's for 17M in RF and Conforto plays CF for a season, best case is he rejects it, signs elsewhere and the Mets get a 2nd round comp pick. the QO to Bruce was kind of a no-brainer, I don't think there was a chance they'd offer it to Walker, though I have read they may try and work out a short-term deal with him if he's not traded.

I think the worst case is that he would accept the QO, eating up close to 15% of the team's payroll (based on a $130M payroll), and revert back to the player he was throughout 2013-2015 (essentially zero WAR over 3 full seasons). Even worse, he'd also add wear and tear on Conforto by exposing him to another full season CF.

I'm glad he's gone and the Mets won't stupidly offer him the QO. If he makes $18M next year I'll come here and own it and say I'm wrong but I'm not worried because there's zero chance that happens.

In comment 13555219 Metnut said:

Quote:

In comment 13555186 pjcas18 said: Quote: have offered Bruce the QO if they didn't deal him, worst case is another year of a guy hitting 30+ HR's for 17M in RF and Conforto plays CF for a season, best case is he rejects it, signs elsewhere and the Mets get a 2nd round comp pick. the QO to Bruce was kind of a no-brainer, I don't think there was a chance they'd offer it to Walker, though I have read they may try and work out a short-term deal with him if he's not traded. I think the worst case is that he would accept the QO, eating up close to 15% of the team's payroll (based on a $130M payroll), and revert back to the player he was throughout 2013-2015 (essentially zero WAR over 3 full seasons). Even worse, he'd also add wear and tear on Conforto by exposing him to another full season CF. I'm glad he's gone and the Mets won't stupidly offer him the QO. If he makes $18M next year I'll come here and own it and say I'm wrong but I'm not worried because there's zero chance that happens.

Who do you replace Bruce with that is going to duplicate or improve his production and cost less than 18M?

I'd like to see the Mets go with an IF of:

Smith, Flores, Rosario and Cabrera (if not dealt). Let Reyes play utility to give other guys a day off every now and then. Let's see if Flores can keep hitting and let's see if Cabrera is worth his option. Hopefully they find some sucker to take Walker because he looks shot and has no future here and any playing time he gets is a waste.

For OF, start Conforto and Cespedes pretty much every day and give the rest of the time to Nimmo/Lagares. I'd give Cespedes an additional day off every week too which should give even more ABs to Nimmo/Lagares.

My point is that it isn't likely that Jay Bruce can replace most his own 2017 production in 2018. Look at the player he's been for most of his recent career rather than a little more than 4 months. Look at how little interest there was for this guy around MLB. Another year of aging will make him even worse defensively and add wear and tear on our biggest non thor/degrom asset.

Bat first corner OFs are pretty cheap now in MLB. If the Mets really want Bruce back, they'll be able to get him for a lot less than $18M.

Bruce is producing right at his career norms. Last year as a Met was a down "year" for him.

In comment 13555233 pjcas18 said:

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Bruce is producing right at his career norms. Last year as a Met was a down "year" for him.

And $18M would be total commitment for Bruce if he accepts the QO, like Murphy, assuming he rejects it, he'd likely get a 3 year $35M offer somewhere and I'd rather the one year $18M. And Bruce is far more likely to accept $35M than $18M guaranteed.

In comment 13555233 pjcas18 said:

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Bruce is producing right at his career norms. Last year as a Met was a down "year" for him.

His 2014-2016 numbers (0.2 total fWar over 3 seasons and almost 1600 ABs and an OBP under 300) is a much larger sample size than 4 months in 2017. I'm not willing to gamble $18M of payroll that 2017 Bruce is the real player, especially since we're an NL team and he has to play the field here.

years with the Mets he put up 8 fWAR. That's A LOT more than Bruce put up in the past 4 years.

If Bruce gets a Murphy contract from someone I'll come here and admit I was wrong but I think zero chance that happens. He was a sure bet to accept the QO since no one will come close to paying him $18M. The last thing the Mets need is more dead money.

In comment 13555239 Metnut said:

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years with the Mets he put up 8 fWAR. That's A LOT more than Bruce put up in the past 4 years. If Bruce gets a Murphy contract from someone I'll come here and admit I was wrong but I think zero chance that happens. He was a sure bet to accept the QO since no one will come close to paying him $18M. The last thing the Mets need is more dead money.

Bruce's WAR is impacted by his defense. I do not subscribe fully to being able to quantify defense through advanced statistics, you do, so great that's how you sign players.

If you really need an advanced stat I'd use wRC+ before WAR, especially after watching practically a full season of Bruce, while he's not a gold glover out there I felt like some of his defensive reputation is over-exaggerated.

And you have to replace Bruce with someone, and my sense is there is no one ready in the system and no free agent is going to do that in 2018 for less than an $18M commitment (total commitment).

But again, this is worst case, I feel fairly confident Bruce would reject the QO and get an offer like Murphy got and accept it to go elsewhere, probably to an AL team that can DH him.

but obviously it's a moot point.

to agree on this one PJ.

I'll just add that viewing his defense through my eyes matches what the metrics say.

In comment 13555245 Metnut said:

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to agree on this one PJ. I'll just add that viewing his defense through my eyes matches what the metrics say.

Even if it does, I am pretty confident he would have rejected the QO. But like I said it's moot now, so we can both claim victory and it's not provable either way, LOL.

Nimmo is the perfect example of "use this time" to make decisions. ST is mostly useless and late Sept. can be too. Use this time to judge... is Nimmo a 4th OF? Is he a 5th? is he a AAAA player?

Collins says Granderson will remain the starter. Too hot to bench him. Moron.

In comment 13555265 DanMetroMan said:

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Collins says Granderson will remain the starter. Too hot to bench him. Moron.

That alone should be a fireable offense. You trade Bruce to get Nimmo consistent AB's PERIOD

Is a player hitting 3 for 17 in August too hot to bench

Dan's post and thought he was joking. Holy shit he's not. Terrible.

In comment 13555265 DanMetroMan said:

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Collins says Granderson will remain the starter. Too hot to bench him. Moron.

LOL, this is ridiculous.

I guess Terry really doesn't give a shit about the future of the team, it's not like he'll be here so what does he care.

Might as well stay close with the older guys.

Oy.

In comment 13555442 arcarsenal said:

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In comment 13555265 DanMetroMan said: Quote: Collins says Granderson will remain the starter. Too hot to bench him. Moron. LOL, this is ridiculous. I guess Terry really doesn't give a shit about the future of the team, it's not like he'll be here so what does he care. Might as well stay close with the older guys. Oy.

Let TC go and put Dick Scott in charge. David Wright can be bench coach .

part of their top 30 prospects?