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Eli is not a leader!

Beezer : 8/10/2017 8:59 am
Don't you love those comments? Happened to me this morning.

Short story ... texted a few notes from yesterday's camp report from Sy to a co-worker. Guy's a Giants fan, from Connecticut, former high school varsity head football coach. Knows the game, but says ridiculous things at times - the way we all field such comments from people who don't truly follow their alleged favorite team.

Anyhow, I am a huge Eli fan and while I love me some Simms, Eli is the greatest QB to wear blue, imo.

After texting a Sy blurb about the defense, this guy responds: We need it because Eli blows.

I text back mentioning the sketchy line, crap at TE, thin WRs and no run game to speak of last season.

He says: Never liked him. He throws a pick and then walks around with his head in his shoulder pads. He doesn't lead! Now his brother Peyton ... leader!!

I was in a rush to get out of the house so sent this: You couldn't be more incorrect about Eli's leadership.

His last input: He made 2 throws in 2 different Super Bowls to win those games. But overall in his career his body language speaks louder than those throws.

I shouldn't be so surprised. I know some on this site probably feel that way, despite a really accomplished career. But it's still unsettling to have someone you once thought had an ounce of football IQ, or more than a surface knowledge of the game, or this team (body language? Outweighing 2 Super Bowl rings AND MVPs?) say a future Hall of Famer "blows" and cite body language.

Amazed.

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I really believe  
Fred in Atlanta : 8/10/2017 10:57 am : link
What people think of Eli is the best football intelligence test.
yep,coach dorgan, you're 100% correct  
TheMick7 : 8/10/2017 10:57 am : link
These idiots won't appreciate Eli until he's gone!
RE: I really believe  
Moondawg : 8/10/2017 10:57 am : link
In comment 13554848 Fred in Atlanta said:
Quote:
What people think of Eli is the best football intelligence test.


I've thought that too, for a long time.
Fun fact  
Moondawg : 8/10/2017 11:00 am : link
Our new HOF QB Kurt warner had 22 interceptions the year he won MVP.
I've thought this too...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/10/2017 11:03 am : link
Quote:
I really believe
Fred in Atlanta : 10:57 am : link : reply
What people think of Eli is the best football intelligence test.


Especially those who proactively went out of their way to discuss other QB's they thought were better, a list that at a point in time included guys like:

- Jay Cutler
- Mark Sanchez
- Josh Freeman
- RGIII
- Colin Kaepernick
- Matt Schaub
- Nick Foles
- Sam Bradford

I still remember a thread on if we should hope that Freeman took over for Eli when he was the backup for the millisecond before he was cut.

I bet if somebody wrote a thread asking if those QB's were better than Ben, they'd get ripped a new one - but when people started threads about the QB's above, it often was met with defense of the topic and the belief those supporting Eli were "blind homers".

And Mark Sanchez and Eli are masterful at being game managers in the playoffs......
I think a very honest assessment of Eli  
Chris684 : 8/10/2017 11:11 am : link
is that his overall body of work in the regular season is somewhere below "great" but better than just "good".

So let's call it 12 seasons of VERY GOOD football from our QB. He's thrown a high number of ints IMO because of the system in which he played the majority of his career, and he's much more of a risk taker at the position than most other QBs which can definitely be a double edge sword.

His willingness to take risks has landed him atop the league in ints a few times, but it's also the reason he stared down a Belechick defense twice in the 4th quarter in the biggest games of his life and came out on top.

And by the way, if his regular seasons have been very good, his postseasons have been great.
.  
Go Terps : 8/10/2017 11:15 am : link
I will never forget Sam Bradford being pointed at as a near certainty to have a better career than Eli.

I'll bring up another name that was guaranteed to have a better career: Andrew Luck. While his story certainly isn't yet written, by this point in Luck's career Eli had already led his team to a Super Bowl title.

Any leadership, elite/non-elite, Pro Bowl or All-Pro nominations, MVPs, Hall of Fame...all that shit is subjective and individualized. It's all debatable, and it's not about the team.

Here is what is not debatable: twice in his career Eli Manning was the principle factor in turning Super Bowl defeats into victories. If he retired today, that would be his legacy and it's a pretty damn good one.
The last two NFL MVPs were Matt Ryan and Cam Newton  
Go Terps : 8/10/2017 11:22 am : link
That MVP award will go on their resumes and will be used by many as an argument that they are better than Eli Manning. As a counter I would use the following GIFs, each taken from the Super Bowl...each was a crucial play that was critical in determining the outcome of the game:







You can take your MVP awards. I know the guy I want on my team.
Well  
BigBlue in Keys : 8/10/2017 12:00 pm : link
Its tough dealing with  
Buzzard64 : 8/10/2017 12:01 pm : link
Giants fans who carry the hate for Eli. My wife and I actually had to cut off and walk away from another couple who are huge, bleeding Blue Giants fans because of the inane criticism and hate for Eli. Watching games together with those two, which we often did, grew to be painful. They would sit on the edge of their seats poised to criticize and comment on any small detail of Elis play. And many times, after crucifying him, they would be jumping for joy when Eli engineered many comeback victories. There was no justice, no acknowledgement that perhaps they were hasty with the hate.
It hurt for a while to walk away but both of us are happy we did.
I'm not looking forward to  
DieHard : 8/10/2017 12:14 pm : link
hearing the annual "Eli is done" refrain I get from a lot of my Giants fan acquaintances. Yes, one day Eli will be done, and the people calling for his head all along will sigh a breath of relief or say something like "He should have been out of there years ago." This despite the fact that if these people had their way, he would have been out of NY back in 2007 and we'd have two less Super Bowl rings because of it.

And yet, these people are still smarter than that guy going on and on about body language.
As Giants fans, we are blessed to have Eli as our QB  
Marty in Albany : 8/10/2017 12:15 pm : link
My only complaint, albeit a small one, is that he runs like a girl.
RE: And I'll say it again  
Jimmy Googs : 8/10/2017 12:23 pm : link
In comment 13554686 Chris684 said:
Quote:
Offensively, who was the best player on the field last January in Green Bay?

No surprise, number 10.


Except of course, he wasn't...
Hillarious  
Gary JC : 8/10/2017 12:29 pm : link
I can't get enough of these Eli critics year after year. It's entertainment at it's best. Just wait until you hear the cries when you have another Dave Brown, Jerry Golsteyn, Randy Dean, Kent Graham, Danny Kanell and Joe Pisarcik era. You guys have no idea. Here's a guy in Manning that gave you not one but two iconic SB runs, will finish in the top ten in every category over the history of this league and there are still morons questioning his worth. This is priceless.
Jimmy, offensively for NYG  
Chris684 : 8/10/2017 12:30 pm : link
who was better or more prepared for that playoff game?
RE: Jimmy, offensively for NYG  
Jimmy Googs : 8/10/2017 12:35 pm : link
In comment 13555020 Chris684 said:
Quote:
who was better or more prepared for that playoff game?


Oh, I didn't know you meant just the Giants.

Agree, Eli was on money early and then was a target when fell behind 2 scores...
As Giant fans,  
Doomster : 8/10/2017 12:47 pm : link
we have seen some bonehead plays by Eli.....but that happens to a lot of qb's, but for some reason, his are magnified....

A lot of non-Giant fans, just see highlights of Giant losses and blame it all on Eli.....so what if he has an OL that takes turns screwing up...so what if he doesn't have a RB, or TE, or third WR? Or until last year, a defense that could actually play?

Some guys are very demonstrative when they lead.....others say nothing and lead by example......Manning has been the best QB the Giants have ever had.....it's almost amazing what he has accomplished with the OL's he has played behind, and having no consistent running game....

We have a thin OL.....but if they can stay healthy, and pick up their game just a bit, with the weapons Eli has this season, it may just be his best season ever....
And  
Doomster : 8/10/2017 12:49 pm : link
As Giants fans, we are blessed to have Eli as our QB
Marty in Albany : 12:15 pm : link : reply
My only complaint, albeit a small one, is that he runs like a girl.

slides like a girl....
RE: It isn't just friends..  
JCin332 : 8/10/2017 1:05 pm : link
In comment 13554833 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
that say stupid shit - you get it right here on BBI consistently. This viewpoint gets thrown out a lot around here:



Quote:


eli is a leader (and i'm a big fan too)
GiantNatty : 9:06 am : link : reply
but he's also kinda sucked for a few seasons now. he hasn't had any magic for going on five seasons. he has a lot fewer excuses this year - i'm hopeful he can still get it done.



Statistically speaking, 2014 and 2015 were Eli's best/better years, yet people will say "Eli's kinda sucked for awhile now", not think to separate the team performance from that of Eli (but having no qualms to say the defense carried eli last year).

If we can't expect supposed fans of the team to realize this, what hope do we have for others?


This is GiantNatty at his finest...he's like a broken clock...
In fairness to that Ryan gif above  
MetsAreBack : 8/10/2017 1:06 pm : link
it looks like his own lineman was the one that caused him to fall down.

I will say Eli's own coaches, or at least GM, starting talking about his "back nine" and that he wasnt very good this past season... so i cant get on all the fans when our own management isn't exactly praising him.

I also dont buy his lack of weapons last year - he had perhaps the best WR in the sport.

But hopefully 2017 will be closer to 2014/2015 as far as his individual statistics go than 2016 was. The oline has certainly been a big reason for some of the recent issues, and time will tell whether that improves this year.

Finally, it was noted above that "#10 was the best player on the field" this past January. I assume that was meant to be qualified as "best GIANT player on the field" because obviously Rodgers was the best player on the field that day.
RE: As Giants fans, we are blessed to have Eli as our QB  
Beezer : 8/10/2017 1:13 pm : link
In comment 13554985 Marty in Albany said:
Quote:
My only complaint, albeit a small one, is that he runs like a girl.


bahahahahaha
Best WR in the game (or at very least one of the top 3)  
Beezer : 8/10/2017 1:15 pm : link
BUT ... who else?

That would be a weapon. Singular. Not weapons. Plural.

And if you have just ONE, maybe a little tougher for that one to get open as often?

MAB  
Go Terps : 8/10/2017 1:23 pm : link
The problem with Ryan on that play isn't what physically caused him to fall down, it's that in a situation where above everything he could not take a sack the ball was not out of his hands at the end of his drop. An incompletion would have been OK...they were still in Bryant's field goal range. A sack was unforgivable.
Here's the video of the Ryan sack  
Go Terps : 8/10/2017 1:26 pm : link
Aikman is on it immediately.
Link - ( New Window )
If you don't think Eli is  
NNJ Tom : 8/10/2017 1:30 pm : link
the undisputed leader of the NY Giants, you haven't been paying attention.

The day he isn't the starting QB of the Giants will be a very dark day.
Am I the only person who thinks Eli actually had a good year in 2016?  
kinard : 8/10/2017 1:41 pm : link
... 26 TDs and 15 INTs behind an awful offensive line, pedestrian running backs and with zero tight end presence all with a rookie head coach who ran a very conservative offense (oh and yes he played every single game...again).

For those who forgot, he did lead a team that won 11 games and beat the Cowboys twice. He was also one of the few guys who showed up in Green Bay and was ready to play.

Jesus, you'd think the guy was quarterbacking a 5 win team.

I have no problem with him throwing some picks because he's never been a stat guy and always gives his guys chances to make plays (its a crime that these halftime heaves that he throws up are used against against him).

Like Parcells said about Simms - you're gonna miss this guy when he's gone. Not sure I wouldn't sign for another 11 win season in which Eli plays "bad." However, because he has some more weapons this year - Sky's the limit for #10.

kinard  
dorgan : 8/10/2017 1:44 pm : link
you're not alone.
This whole "Eli is not a leader" argument has been going on...  
RC02XX : 8/10/2017 2:00 pm : link
since he was drafted. Even in his first year as a starter, I remember having ridiculous back and forths with some BBI posters, who thought that Eli not being a fiery "rah rah" in your face kind of a player meant that he possessed no leadership capabilities. And while the way people views leadership can be pretty subjective, there are certain qualities that all good leaders possess such as accountability (not making excuses), putting others before himself, setting and example, and facing challenges through determination among other qualities. Eli possesses all of them and more.

I'm sure this coach, who puts way too much stock on body language is a great leader himself...bleh.
So Odell Beckham by himself  
Chris684 : 8/10/2017 2:07 pm : link
makes up for pretty much nothing else at WR, dogshit at TE, and dogshit at RB? Beckham is great but that would be hard for any WR

Only a rookie Shepard and a rookie Perkins were somewhat capable at any point last season besides Beckham.

Statistically 2016 wasnt even that bad for Manning. The problem was more in and around the pocket/bailing out too early due to a below average OL.

2016 wasnt a great year for Manning but definitely wasnt bad.
RE: kinard  
Diver_Down : 8/10/2017 2:13 pm : link
In comment 13555129 dorgan said:
Quote:
you're not alone.


+1. I didn't want to overwhelm the reader with stats in my above post. But he was very good especially considering the supporting cast. Even if you eliminate the "reasons" why the offense sputtered, Eli exceeded career benchmarks and finished the season as one of his top 4 of his career.
RE: kinard  
kinard : 8/10/2017 2:32 pm : link
In comment 13555129 dorgan said:
Quote:
you're not alone.


Dorgan - I know. You're absolutely right. I went back and read some of the posts. It just gets very frustrating hearing this sometimes. You get the feeling that some of these people don't watch the games but just see highlights and listen to the talking-heads.

Some of these fans should go back to the days of 1970s when the QB competition was Jerry Goldstein/Randy Dean/Joe Pisarczk and maybe they would see what bad QBing was really like (or even look crosstown to what's going on with the Green team).

RE: eli is a leader (and i'm a big fan too)  
djm : 8/10/2017 2:44 pm : link
In comment 13554669 GiantNatty said:
Quote:
but he's also kinda sucked for a few seasons now. he hasn't had any magic for going on five seasons. he has a lot fewer excuses this year - i'm hopeful he can still get it done.


Kind of sucked?

Do you guys watch other qbs play football? Define "kind of sucked?"

Actually don't. I don't care.
leaders  
Les in TO : 8/10/2017 2:45 pm : link
come in different shapes and forms. he's not a vocal leader or a manager of other positions (when the giants are on defense, he is standing next to the QB coach/backup QBs or offensive coordinator, not sitting next to his receivers or linemen giving them advice about how to handle situations).

he accepts accountability, doesn't show up his teammates and keeps a calm/poised disposition which are traits of good leaders.

Haha this again  
Route 9 : 8/10/2017 3:28 pm : link
Every single Eli hater comment: His defense carried him to two Super Bowls, he throws INTs.

hes not a leader comes more from the older Giants fans I talk to in person who are still obsessed with Phil Simms

Yeah kinard, agreed. Everything is about that stupid stat sheet, passer rating and opinions given by people who barely/never watch any Giants games.
RE: Haha this again  
Fred in Atlanta : 8/10/2017 3:56 pm : link
In comment 13555236 Route 9 said:
Quote:
Every single Eli hater comment: His defense carried him to two Super Bowls, he throws INTs.

hes not a leader comes more from the older Giants fans I talk to in person who are still obsessed with Phil Simms .


A lot of those obsessed with Phil Simms, would be complaining about him when he was playing. I remember my dad complaining the Simms held on to the ball to long and took to many sacks.
Eli is definitely not a Lieder  
manh george : 8/10/2017 4:07 pm : link


That's Franz Shubert, btw. He wrote lieders. I hate lieders.
RE: Am I the only person who thinks Eli actually had a good year in 2016?  
allstarjim : 8/10/2017 4:17 pm : link
In comment 13555125 kinard said:
Quote:
... 26 TDs and 15 INTs behind an awful offensive line, pedestrian running backs and with zero tight end presence all with a rookie head coach who ran a very conservative offense (oh and yes he played every single game...again).

For those who forgot, he did lead a team that won 11 games and beat the Cowboys twice. He was also one of the few guys who showed up in Green Bay and was ready to play.

Jesus, you'd think the guy was quarterbacking a 5 win team.

I have no problem with him throwing some picks because he's never been a stat guy and always gives his guys chances to make plays (its a crime that these halftime heaves that he throws up are used against against him).

Like Parcells said about Simms - you're gonna miss this guy when he's gone. Not sure I wouldn't sign for another 11 win season in which Eli plays "bad." However, because he has some more weapons this year - Sky's the limit for #10.


You may not be alone, but you're wrong. If you're the QB of a bottom-seven scoring offense, and you're looking up at Jacksonville, outscoring the Niners by a single point, you didn't have a good year. You can throw numbers at me and say offensive line this and running game and not enough receivers, and all that would be true, but I think Eli would be the first to tell you he needed to be better to compensate for a lot of those things. Those are all fine arguments, don't get me wrong, but you can't say he had a good year. You might be able to say, "he did what he could with what he had." In addition, he was particularly inefficient in the redzone. Everyone shits on Blake Bortles but he was better in the red zone than Eli Manning.
2X Super Bowl winning QB  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 8/10/2017 4:20 pm : link
And some can't wait to run his out of town. I just don't get it.
If Eli  
old man : 8/10/2017 4:23 pm : link
was not a leader, the players would have turned on him and the team and gone through the motions, and the Giants would have drafted a serious replacement after '09 or '10, or even '12 or '13.
RE: RE: Am I the only person who thinks Eli actually had a good year in 2016?  
Section331 : 8/10/2017 4:29 pm : link
In comment 13555269 allstarjim said:
Quote:

You may not be alone, but you're wrong. If you're the QB of a bottom-seven scoring offense, and you're looking up at Jacksonville, outscoring the Niners by a single point, you didn't have a good year. You can throw numbers at me and say offensive line this and running game and not enough receivers, and all that would be true, but I think Eli would be the first to tell you he needed to be better to compensate for a lot of those things. Those are all fine arguments, don't get me wrong, but you can't say he had a good year. You might be able to say, "he did what he could with what he had." In addition, he was particularly inefficient in the redzone. Everyone shits on Blake Bortles but he was better in the red zone than Eli Manning.


I would agree with the notion that Eli did the best with what he had last year, but red zone numbers are influenced by the talent you have around you. And the RZ is where the Giants' offensive shortcomings came home to roost. No running game to speak of, no TE's to keep defenses honest, and a leaky OL. Double Odell, and what were Eli's options? If he has the same issues this year, then he's part of the problem.
RE: RE: Am I the only person who thinks Eli actually had a good year in 2016?  
kinard : 8/10/2017 6:02 pm : link
In comment 13555269 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 13555125 kinard said:


Quote:


... 26 TDs and 15 INTs behind an awful offensive line, pedestrian running backs and with zero tight end presence all with a rookie head coach who ran a very conservative offense (oh and yes he played every single game...again).

For those who forgot, he did lead a team that won 11 games and beat the Cowboys twice. He was also one of the few guys who showed up in Green Bay and was ready to play.

Jesus, you'd think the guy was quarterbacking a 5 win team.

I have no problem with him throwing some picks because he's never been a stat guy and always gives his guys chances to make plays (its a crime that these halftime heaves that he throws up are used against against him).

Like Parcells said about Simms - you're gonna miss this guy when he's gone. Not sure I wouldn't sign for another 11 win season in which Eli plays "bad." However, because he has some more weapons this year - Sky's the limit for #10.




You may not be alone, but you're wrong. If you're the QB of a bottom-seven scoring offense, and you're looking up at Jacksonville, outscoring the Niners by a single point, you didn't have a good year. You can throw numbers at me and say offensive line this and running game and not enough receivers, and all that would be true, but I think Eli would be the first to tell you he needed to be better to compensate for a lot of those things. Those are all fine arguments, don't get me wrong, but you can't say he had a good year. You might be able to say, "he did what he could with what he had." In addition, he was particularly inefficient in the redzone. Everyone shits on Blake Bortles but he was better in the red zone than Eli Manning.


Giants were 26th in points scored in 2016. Won 11 Games. Chargers were 26th in points in 2015. Won 4 games. Funny going into the 2016 season I don't recall anyone saying that Phillip Rivers had a bad year. Yet the consensus seems to be that Eli Manning had a bad year in 2016. Why is that? Now you're "red zoning" me? The one place on the field where success is predicated on offense line play, a good tight end and a competent running game? There are 11 guys the offense my friend. Not one man is responsible for the success or failures of a team. A couple of guys break down and it sabotages the entire unit.
Do you know how many teams had more WINS than Giants in 2016? Four. If you're the QB of team that wins more games than 85%-90% of all the other teams in the NFL, I'd say that's a "good" year, wouldn't you? Wins - that's the stat that I care about.
The Anti Eli crowd here is  
map7711 : 8/10/2017 6:23 pm : link
Just plain idiotic. Too many listen to what the idiots on ESPN tell them.
RE: Fun fact  
Modus Operandi : 8/10/2017 6:26 pm : link
In comment 13554853 Moondawg said:
Quote:
Our new HOF QB Kurt warner had 22 interceptions the year he won MVP.


Here are a few more fun facts.

Kurt Warner threw 22 picks that year - the only time in his career he threw over 20. He did so while throwing 36TDs at 8.8 yds p/a.

Eli has threw < 20 three times in his career and led the league each time. In each of those seasons, he never averaged more than 7.5 ypa - even while we most of us would consider those offenses as vertical passing schemes.

So while we all love to shit on Kurt Warner, and he's earned certainly earned a lot it, it's probably fair to say he's the more accomplished passers.

I like Eli. He's tough as nails; and, in spite of the dopey demeanor, I do think he's a leader. There's no taking away how well he played on those two runs. The NFC game vs. SF may be the most impressive performance I've seen from a QB under constant duress.

With that said, it's fair to criticize him. He's been up and down and wildly inconsistent game to game during regular seasons. He makes a ton of boneheaded plays you'd expect a seasoned vet to have grown out of by now.

Eli didn't have a good year in 2016  
Jimmy Googs : 8/10/2017 6:30 pm : link
He wasn't bad by any stretch, but I wouldn't chalk last year up to being a solid year either for our QB. On a Eli-scale of 1-10, maybe he was a "6"?

Of course there were circumstances to consider (bad O-line and basically one weapon in OBJ), but Eli showed signs of his age and lack of patience, at least to me. I recall plenty of inaccurate downfield throws, looking too much at the pass rush and more willingness to give up on a play than make it work.

Big Eli-fan and cannot imagine this team without him, but them's the facts...

> 20  
Modus Operandi : 8/10/2017 6:31 pm : link
Obviously..
the giants scored so few points last year because  
GMenLTS : 8/10/2017 6:36 pm : link
the coach recognized the offensive shortcomings and that the team's strength was the defense, so he coached beyond conservative on O.
RE: the giants scored so few points last year because  
Devon : 8/10/2017 6:52 pm : link
In comment 13555371 GMenLTS said:
Quote:
the coach recognized the offensive shortcomings and that the team's strength was the defense, so he coached beyond conservative on O.


And the coach had no problem making it clear that the QB's play was a major part of those shortcomings in a way you rarely see from a HC about an entrenched QB.

The team itself, whether it be McAdoo or leaks (big and small), has made it fairly clear they didn't think Eli played well last season and, to some extent, is declining or increasingly too frustrating for some behind the scenes.

I guess people can continue to argue against even them if they want though.
RE: RE: the giants scored so few points last year because  
Diver_Down : 8/10/2017 7:03 pm : link
In comment 13555389 Devon said:
Quote:
In comment 13555371 GMenLTS said:


Quote:


the coach recognized the offensive shortcomings and that the team's strength was the defense, so he coached beyond conservative on O.



And the coach had no problem making it clear that the QB's play was a major part of those shortcomings in a way you rarely see from a HC about an entrenched QB.

The team itself, whether it be McAdoo or leaks (big and small), has made it fairly clear they didn't think Eli played well last season and, to some extent, is declining or increasingly too frustrating for some behind the scenes.


I would say that the leaks have been going on for some time before Ben came on board. Going back to Jerry's comments about the "hang dog" look. I don't think Jerry has ever been on board with Eli. Certainly, he enjoys the glory of the superbowls, but Eli wasn't his pick. Jerry has never had the opportunity to have his QB. With Coughlin gone, Jerry now only has to manage the transition from Eli to be rid of the last holdover of the Accorsi era.
A dated article but applicable today  
gogiants : 8/10/2017 7:51 pm : link
2012 Washington Post article

The author sees Eli as a perfect leader for the Giants due to his toughness, clutch play and that he makes everyone around him better.
RE: RE: Fun fact  
Moondawg : 8/10/2017 8:11 pm : link
In comment 13555360 Modus Operandi said:
Quote:
In comment 13554853 Moondawg said:


Quote:


Our new HOF QB Kurt warner had 22 interceptions the year he won MVP.



Here are a few more fun facts.

Kurt Warner threw 22 picks that year - the only time in his career he threw over 20. He did so while throwing 36TDs at 8.8 yds p/a.

Eli has threw < 20 three times in his career and led the league each time. In each of those seasons, he never averaged more than 7.5 ypa - even while we most of us would consider those offenses as vertical passing schemes.

So while we all love to shit on Kurt Warner, and he's earned certainly earned a lot it, it's probably fair to say he's the more accomplished passers.

I like Eli. He's tough as nails; and, in spite of the dopey demeanor, I do think he's a leader. There's no taking away how well he played on those two runs. The NFC game vs. SF may be the most impressive performance I've seen from a QB under constant duress.

With that said, it's fair to criticize him. He's been up and down and wildly inconsistent game to game during regular seasons. He makes a ton of boneheaded plays you'd expect a seasoned vet to have grown out of by now.


No disagreement. I've heard people say that you can't be a great QB and throw 20 int's, but with KW and Drew Brees that is entirely the case.
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