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Richburg

wonderback : 8/12/2017 10:47 am
I know this has been touched on before in other threads but I think it needs one of its own.

There were a couple of plays last night where Richburg was blown up and knocked back into the backfield. Needless to say the entire run gets disrupted. These plays looked eerily familiar to last year when the excuse was given that Richburg had a bad wrist. Well, he doesn't now and the same thing seems to be happening.

Now I know this is just the first exhibition game and I know I'm only talking about a couple of plays but is there a bigger problem here than just Flowers pass blocking and Jerry's run blocking.

What say you guys?
...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 8/12/2017 10:48 am : link
Richburg was not good last night. Thankfully we don't play a lot of 3-4 defenses with NTs like that.
Well, the Steelers are deep and very big at D Line  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/12/2017 10:50 am : link
.
I was thinking about the 3-4 defense  
wonderback : 8/12/2017 10:52 am : link
And the nose tackle playing on Richburg's head. He doesn't seem to be able to handle that. Maybe he needs a double team in those situations.

I know we weren't scheming last night and this problem could be handled better if we were doing game planning.

Do we play a lot of 3-4 defenses this year?
He is not very strong  
5BowlsSoon : 8/12/2017 10:56 am : link
Did we overrate him when he came into the league?
Let's see what happens over the next  
AnnapolisMike : 8/12/2017 10:57 am : link
2-3 games before hitting the panic button. Eli usually looks like shit in preseason games as well. The goal is to make it out of these games without injuries and get a feel for who your backups are.

RE: Well, the Steelers are deep and very big at D Line  
dpinzow : 8/12/2017 11:02 am : link
In comment 13557812 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
.


The Eagles are too, and that's a problem
RE: RE: Well, the Steelers are deep and very big at D Line  
BillT : 8/12/2017 11:06 am : link
In comment 13557835 dpinzow said:
Quote:
In comment 13557812 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


.



The Eagles are too, and that's a problem

But they play a 4-3 and that's a differnt challenge for the center.
It's a huge concern  
area junc : 8/12/2017 11:09 am : link
Getting blown backwards 3 times resulting in 2 losses of yardage and a sack in the 1st quarter? Alarming.

Agree he's out of excuses.

Javon Hargrove isn't exactly a huge or accomplished NT either.
not many centers  
Rory : 8/12/2017 11:11 am : link
out there that can handle the point of attack well when facing a 3-4 defense.
Initially... it was concerning... BUT  
Johnny5 : 8/12/2017 11:33 am : link
Playing a very stout and good Steeler front that is a 3-4 as your 1st preseason matchup? It's hard not to expect some adjustment. How many centers are not going to get pushed back once or twice against the Steelers starting NT? I felt the interior OL got better as the snaps increased and I was very encouraged by what I saw from Flowers and Hart.

Josh Johnson needs to be gone. He is AWFUL. I feel pretty confident that if they flip-flop Johnson and Smith we score at LEAST one (if not more) TD. And with Eli and Beckham are in the game?

Do I wish Richburg was more Stout? Well, yeah. But after the points I just listed I'm not sure how much it will matter this year. I guess we will see. I think yeah he will get beat just like every other lineman but at the end of the day he is pretty good and I was overall pretty encouraged by what I saw from the 1st string OL last night.
Richburg was always small for an NFL center  
GeofromNJ : 8/12/2017 11:37 am : link
He was drafted because the Giants thought that he was smart, agile, and would be reliable with the shotgun snap and this is what he gives them. He's not going to get any bigger or more powerful and consequently will never be able to keep out overpowering nose tackles.
RE: Richburg was always small for an NFL center  
Klaatu : 8/12/2017 11:52 am : link
In comment 13557878 GeofromNJ said:
Quote:
He was drafted because the Giants thought that he was smart, agile, and would be reliable with the shotgun snap and this is what he gives them. He's not going to get any bigger or more powerful and consequently will never be able to keep out overpowering nose tackles.


He's about the same size as Rodney Hudson, Nick Martin, David Andrews, Jason Kelce, and Maurkice Pouncey, to name five. Some, like Alex Mack and Travis Frederick, are bigger than Richburg, but not by much.

Most of criticism of Richburg reminds me of the criticism of Shaun O'Hara (also the same size as Richburg), a three-time Pro-Bowler who anchored a rushing attack that produced two thousand-yard rushers.
RE: Richburg was always small for an NFL center  
wonderback : 8/12/2017 11:52 am : link
In comment 13557878 GeofromNJ said:
Quote:
He was drafted because the Giants thought that he was smart, agile, and would be reliable with the shotgun snap and this is what he gives them. He's not going to get any bigger or more powerful and consequently will never be able to keep out overpowering nose tackles.


If true, that sucks!!!
possibly mac ball calls for bigger  
idiotsavant : 8/12/2017 12:09 pm : link
interior linemen, refer to last springs rants, as coach may prefer to 'pass as a run' which may require (more often) simple and predictable pass protection from guards and centers, and therefor placing higher value on bigs anchoring as opposed to, say, athletic types pulling and all that, (such as, say, Coughlin and the old giants, the athletic smaller centers and guards).

Mac ball may bode well for Halapio.

Then, if its to be outside zone runs, ala Falcons, you probably want those run to both sides, I assume the right can get it done but remains to be seen on left. The left side, assume two TE sets, it would be nice to see Engram/Flowers pull off some of that type of run blocking, in which case the center may only need to hit a DT from one side and only for a short moment, as the RG will hit the nose T - also from one side?

hard to tell from a radio broadcast if this was tried yet, or if it worked, the left TE may need to slide to hit a safety or LB.
It is somewhat concerning...  
UticaMike : 8/12/2017 12:45 pm : link
how easily defenders were able to shed him yesterday. I've watched the first half of the game twice now, and he was tossed aside on several occasions.
I'm not surprised at Richburg's poor play last night.  
GiantGolfer : 8/12/2017 1:18 pm : link
He's just not strong enough. Smart and agile can only take you so far. Every team knows this too.
LOL...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/12/2017 1:24 pm : link
"just not strong enough".

Umm, OK.

Seemed to be plenty worthy to be a decent OL two years ago and then last year, he dealt with torn ligaments in his hand. I guess the rest of his strength atrophied too?
Richburg is just not that good  
Vanzetti : 8/12/2017 1:34 pm : link
There is no big mystery. He is very mobile if you can get him to the second level on screens and such. But he is weak at the point of attack.

Because he was picked in the second round, some Giant fans want to hold onto the idea that he is going to be a pro bowler. Same thing happened with the DT Austin. People went on about how he hadn't played football in two years and you can't judge him blah blah.

Austin was a bust. Richburg is not a bust. He has been mediocre. Not every high pick is going to develop. But Richburg still has a year to show that he was worth a #2. So, let's see what happens instead of making pronouncements about how he sucks or about how he is the next Shaun O'Hara.
sort of the teams choice ala all last offseason  
idiotsavant : 8/12/2017 1:34 pm : link
our constant rants here:

'draft guards and centers high' or 'go with additional talent at receiver etc'.

possibly a change in the types of run schemes and therefore play actions will make it a moot choice,

but for 'mac type ball', we - looking to have the same G-C-G trio, may have possibly similar results in the run game and therefor play action as well.
What in the fuck??  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/12/2017 1:40 pm : link
What's this supposed to mean?
Quote:
Because he was picked in the second round, some Giant fans want to hold onto the idea that he is going to be a pro bowler


Giant fans want to "hold onto the idea" he's going to be good? For fuck's sake - they only have to look back to 2015.

Quote:
In 2015, Richburg was returned to his natural position of center, and with a year of NFL experience under his belt, he soon showed himself to be among the league's best centers; Pro Football Focus ranked him as the NFL's #2 center for the 2015 season.


Given the way the Giants have been riddled with injuries this decade, you'd think people would understand the impact they have, yet they conveniently ignore a center having torn ligaments in his hand? I don't know why, but that ignorance is often showed when discussing Richburg.
Richburg  
KerrysFlask : 8/12/2017 1:46 pm : link
Needs to stop huffing cow turds on his ranch in Amarillo and start lifting weights...

He's serviceable, but not the superstar people here think he is/should be.
2015 the whipping boy  
bluepepper : 8/12/2017 1:47 pm : link
was Newhouse. Flowers got a pass because he was a rook. 2016 Flowers was the guy and Richburg got a pass because of injury. Gotta feeling 2017 is gonna be the year to blame Richburg while the other guys get a pass. Fact is we probably need a big infusion of talent not unlike what we did with the DL after 2015.
Vanzetti  
Klaatu : 8/12/2017 1:48 pm : link
The criticism of Richburg is exactly the same as the criticism of O'Hara: Too light, too small, not strong enough, always getting pushed back, etc.

How that relates to Marvin Austin, I have no idea.
RE: What in the fuck??  
wonderback : 8/12/2017 2:10 pm : link
In comment 13558016 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
What's this supposed to mean?


Quote:


Because he was picked in the second round, some Giant fans want to hold onto the idea that he is going to be a pro
bowler




Giant fans want to "hold onto the idea" he's going to be good? For fuck's sake - they only have to look back to 2015.



Quote:


In 2015, Richburg was returned to his natural position of center, and with a year of NFL experience under his belt, he soon showed himself to be among the league's best centers; Pro Football Focus ranked him as the NFL's #2 center for the 2015 season.



Given the way the Giants have been riddled with injuries this decade, you'd think people would understand the impact they have, yet they conveniently ignore a center having torn ligaments in his hand? I don't know why, but that ignorance is often showed when discussing Richburg.


I'm not talking about last year, I'm talking about last night. Are you trying to say he still dealing with the torn ligaments from last year? That's some friggin injury.

The question was, is he going to be a problem getting knocked back into the backfield on running plays like he did last night. I'm open to people telling me there's no cause for concern there and why. I'm not trying to create a whipping boy. It's a legitimate question regarding the center and our ability to run between the tackles.
Talking..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/12/2017 2:20 pm : link
about the first preseason game as being indicative of anything is nearly as bad as dismissing torn ligaments in a hand.

And yeah, it was some frigging injury.
well, the league changes and we are no longer playing  
idiotsavant : 8/12/2017 2:25 pm : link
coughlin ball. I think BBI fans have been a bit slow to accept that the classic line player archetypes may change with a new league and new team emphasis on O.
RE: Talking..  
wonderback : 8/12/2017 2:29 pm : link
In comment 13558044 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
about the first preseason game as being indicative of anything is nearly as bad as dismissing torn ligaments in a hand.

And yeah, it was some frigging injury.


So if the first preseason game is indicative of nothing why are we watching? C'mob, get a grip. I'm not saying the guy sucks, I was asking if he is going to continue to have a problem with nose tackles that line up over his head. It's a legitimate question. The consensus is yes. You don't have to opt in.
RE: well, the league changes and we are no longer playing  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/12/2017 2:31 pm : link
In comment 13558048 idiotsavant said:
Quote:
coughlin ball. I think BBI fans have been a bit slow to accept that the classic line player archetypes may change with a new league and new team emphasis on O.


Even when coughlin was here, O'Hara had roller skates on against bigger guys too.
What is this supposed to mean??  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/12/2017 2:32 pm : link
Quote:
I think BBI fans have been a bit slow to accept that the classic line player archetypes may change with a new league and new team emphasis on O


The Giants line actually does a pretty good job of pass blocking. I have no clue what the comment about the "new league" is or the idea that the TC era was years ago.

You keep talking about "mac ball" as if the team isn't constructed to play his way. He's not looking to establish a power running game - he wants OL that can pull, get out in space and are agile.

true TTH  
idiotsavant : 8/12/2017 2:33 pm : link
but its effect is compounded when the % bread and butter is pass as run and no play action, no run threat.
when the last seasons version had very  
idiotsavant : 8/12/2017 2:36 pm : link
low run % and success of that on 3rd downs and very low runs for TD, that needs to be replaced by something.

and, in this case, it may be replaced by -the types of plays- where the C being pushed back hurts you a lot more % wise than in TC ball, even with the same overall number of push backs.
And Not To Be A Wise Guy  
wonderback : 8/12/2017 2:37 pm : link
But if it was 'some friggin injury' was this guy able to lift over the off-season? If not, maybe that's part of his problem regarding strength at the point of attack.
Fatty  
idiotsavant : 8/12/2017 2:38 pm : link
'' he wants OL that can pull, get out in space and are agile. '' to me is TC ball, not mac ball.

Mac ball is drop back vanilla pass protection without a run threat and 'pass as run' more like packers.

when it works we do have the receivers...but....
or shotgun, pass mostly and occasional delay draw type run  
idiotsavant : 8/12/2017 2:51 pm : link
same, the centers anchor is a bigger factor than in TC where pulling interior linesmen can get your RB outside and a variety of runs keeps the D from teeing off on pass rush or third and short and goal line situations.
Or Maybe It's As Simple As  
wonderback : 8/12/2017 2:55 pm : link
Don't ask people to do things they're not good at.
OL  
XBRONX : 8/12/2017 3:06 pm : link
that are agile and can get out in space? Like Jerry,Fluker and Hart.LOL
RE: And Not To Be A Wise Guy  
Johnny5 : 8/12/2017 3:11 pm : link
In comment 13558068 wonderback said:
Quote:
But if it was 'some friggin injury' was this guy able to lift over the off-season? If not, maybe that's part of his problem regarding strength at the point of attack.

He tore multiple ligaments in has hand in the second preseason game, not even one year ago. He did not have surgery until the offseason, which was not until after January of this year. So if he had the surgery in say, February, to repair multiple torn ligaments in his snapping hand... you don't think he is having any lingering effects now 6 months after surgery? And when would he have been cleared for lifting "normally" again maybe April? We don't even know if he is back to full strength yet, let alone getting stronger.

It's the 1st preseason game, Against a tough 3-4 DL. A few months removed from significant surgery. Without Eli and OBj. I'm not going to be down on Richburg yet. It just doesn't make sense.

If he gets back to where he was  
Phil in LA : 8/12/2017 3:16 pm : link
two years ago, we'll all be thrilled.
That's not the way...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/12/2017 3:19 pm : link
the Packers play:

Quote:
Mac ball is drop back vanilla pass protection without a run threat and 'pass as run' more like packers.


They don't use vanilla pass protection and they have a lot of plays where the linemen need to get in space, whether it be the run design or screens.

In fact, the Packers consistently have one of the smaller lines in the NFL. Last year, at an average of 312 pounds, they were the 25th lightest line in the league. At an average of 6'4", they were tied with many teams as the smallest OL in the league
ok, taken as a point  
idiotsavant : 8/12/2017 3:24 pm : link
however:

1. they do better at it ('holdem up' when the do need to)

2. they have a great move and pass type QB to cover any lines ills, which is not our thing
in addition, height specs  
idiotsavant : 8/12/2017 3:27 pm : link
I never advocated more height, in fact, often advocated shorter Guards, to get low and under pads.

Clearly I dont watch the packers, but that is what they do, no? get low and lift from pads, when the do need to 'just holdem up'?
All I know..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/12/2017 3:34 pm : link
is that it seems strange to say that short, light guys for the Packers is great, but Richburg is small and weak.

Above, Richburg is compared to Marvin Austin as a bust, when just two years ago a healthy Richburg was looked at as a top center.

Not sure how now the common thought is that he's easily pushed around and is a liability.

here is a thing  
idiotsavant : 8/12/2017 3:37 pm : link
http://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/mcginn/2017/01/21/mcginn-pass-protection-technique-drawing-praise/96847704/
supposedly pack uses a 'borderline holding method'  
idiotsavant : 8/12/2017 3:40 pm : link
where the OLers grab shoulder pads to get control of defenders and deny spin moves and basically lock them down on pass pro.

"hands outside method"

as opposed to hammering at the core
RE: RE: And Not To Be A Wise Guy  
wonderback : 8/12/2017 3:53 pm : link
In comment 13558098 Johnny5 said:
Quote:
In comment 13558068 wonderback said:


Quote:


But if it was 'some friggin injury' was this guy able to lift over the off-season? If not, maybe that's part of his problem regarding strength at the point of attack.


He tore multiple ligaments in has hand in the second preseason game, not even one year ago. He did not have surgery until the offseason, which was not until after January of this year. So if he had the surgery in say, February, to repair multiple torn ligaments in his snapping hand... you don't think he is having any lingering effects now 6 months after surgery? And when would he have been cleared for lifting "normally" again maybe April? We don't even know if he is back to full strength yet, let alone getting stronger.

It's the 1st preseason game, Against a tough 3-4 DL. A few months removed from significant surgery. Without Eli and OBj. I'm not going to be down on Richburg yet. It just doesn't make sense.


Thanks, makes sense!
RE: ...  
Toth029 : 8/12/2017 4:07 pm : link
In comment 13557808 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Richburg was not good last night. Thankfully we don't play a lot of 3-4 defenses with NTs like that.

Well the schedule won't be easy for him and its size mismatches. They will play many teams that are 3-4 or hybrids like them. But when they're not, he's getting matched up versus very good players.

Week 1 - Dallas
Week 2 - Detroit
Week 3 - Philadelphia (so he'll face Jernigan and/or Cox)
Week 4 - Tampa Bay (4-3 defense but faces 2nd team All Pro Gerald McCoy and 330-lb Chris Baker)
Week 5 - San Diego (3-4 front)
Week 6 - Broncos (not a traditional 3-4 and moves Miller around)
Week 7 - Seattle (play a 4-3 Under defense)
Week 8 - LA Rams (now coached by Wade Phillips, variation of a 3-4)
Week 9 - San Francisco (runs a big front with Armstead, Buckner, and new man Solomon Thomas)
Week 10 - Kansas City - (3-4, NT is former Eagle Bennie Logan)
Week 11 - Washington (3-4, NT is now listed as Stacy McGee)
Week 12 - Oakland
Week 13 - Dallas
Week 14 - Philadelphia
Week 15 - Arizona - (3-4 front)
Week 16 - Washington
Really don't care what he did in 2015  
Bluesbreaker : 8/12/2017 5:37 pm : link
Maybe he just didn't get off quick enough but to watch him
get bulldozed like he was on roller skates .
Hand injuries suck for a center especially with snapping
and coming back with a hand injury look no further than
JPP ! Maybe and hopefully he just didn't get his feet
planted quickly enough but I am not buying into a hand injury when your light in the pants and getting pushed around . We better be able to convert short yardage and
close out games on offense unlike last year can't rely on
the defense to close out every game .
maybe send him for practice reps over at packers  
idiotsavant : 8/12/2017 5:39 pm : link
.learn that method maybe
RE: I was thinking about the 3-4 defense  
phils2008 : 8/12/2017 8:07 pm : link
In comment 13557821 wonderback said:
Quote:
And the nose tackle playing on Richburg's head. He doesn't seem to be able to handle that. Maybe he needs a double team in those situations.

I know we weren't scheming last night and this problem could be handled better if we were doing game planning.

Do we play a lot of 3-4 defenses this year?
RE: I was thinking about the 3-4 defense  
phils2008 : 8/12/2017 8:15 pm : link
Here we go again with the scheming. Last year all we heard was how much better the OL would be once the season started and the scheming began. Schemes don't make Richburg stronger. They don't make any player stronger or faster. I'll be surprised if this group gets close to average.


In comment 13557821 wonderback said:
Quote:
And the nose tackle playing on Richburg's head. He doesn't seem to be able to handle that. Maybe he needs a double team in those situations.

I know we weren't scheming last night and this problem could be handled better if we were doing game planning.

Do we play a lot of 3-4 defenses this year?
RE: Richburg is just not that good  
phils2008 : 8/12/2017 8:19 pm : link
Well stated.

In comment 13558005 Vanzetti said:
Quote:
There is no big mystery. He is very mobile if you can get him to the second level on screens and such. But he is weak at the point of attack.

Because he was picked in the second round, some Giant fans want to hold onto the idea that he is going to be a pro bowler. Same thing happened with the DT Austin. People went on about how he hadn't played football in two years and you can't judge him blah blah.

Austin was a bust. Richburg is not a bust. He has been mediocre. Not every high pick is going to develop. But Richburg still has a year to show that he was worth a #2. So, let's see what happens instead of making pronouncements about how he sucks or about how he is the next Shaun O'Hara.
This is just another example of how Reese has  
EricJ : 8/12/2017 8:45 pm : link
failed us in the area of the O-line. When you draft a guy this high, he has to produce. You cannot draft him in the second round and then have him play like a 7th rounder.

The strength thing really bothers me. Getting pushed back into the QB is really unacceptable.

Even Pugh is not lighting the world on fire. He may be the best OL draft pick we have had in a while but that is not saying much.
I've been a fan of Richburg...  
Dan in the Springs : 8/13/2017 12:13 am : link
but count me as a bit disappointed in his play last night. In fact, very disappointed. I was hoping to see him play stronger. I get that it's one game, early, and it's unfair to judge him on a quarter of play, but it was disappointed to see him unable to anchor on a few plays, especially where he just played one quarter of football.

Both Jones and Halapio seemed to do a better job of anchoring than Richburg did. Maybe it was just the talent they were facing, or maybe Richburg isn't all the way back yet from his injury. Hoping he gets all the way back though, because we can't have him driven back, collapsing the pocket 10-12 times a game or more.

And Jerry was disappointing last night as well. Flowers and Hart had their best combined game I've seen so far, only to have things ruined by Richburg and Jerry.
RE: Richburg was always small for an NFL center  
RinR : 8/13/2017 7:25 am : link
In comment 13557878 GeofromNJ said:
Quote:
He was drafted because the Giants thought that he was smart, agile, and would be reliable with the shotgun snap and this is what he gives them. He's not going to get any bigger or more powerful and consequently will never be able to keep out overpowering nose tackles.


Again with the Richburg is smallish, not big enough, blah blah blah.

Here's what I posted in another Richburg thread: Richburg is 6'4", 300. Average starting C is 6'4, 306.
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