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Why are we still dink, dunk, screen, checkdowning on O?

BlackburnBalledOut : 8/14/2017 11:10 am
Personally, I hate this dink and dunk, screen centric offense that Mcadoo runs. I get that it was done to "help Eli" eliminate INT's but when this offense was implemented ELi didnt have any receivers. Cruz was never the same after 2013, Beckham has been great, but there hasnt been anyone else to throw to. Because of that I undertsood the check down offense.

Now with a lot of weapons both at receiver and TE I think the Giants can afford to lose some of the checkdown garbage and get back to throwing the ball down the field. Beckham, Marshall, Shepard, and Engram are the 4 guys I want to see with the ball in their hands on a consistent basis. I lost my mind last year when Bobby Rainey would have more touches then all TE combined or all receivers not named Beckham. If we're throwing it, lets throw to a WR, not a RB.

If we can do this, the running game will simultaneoulsy come back to life. The short passing offense allows defenders to play closer to the line , once the offense makes them back off the line there will be more room to run and more time to get to blocking assignments.

The one thing this does cut into though is the amount of passing plays designed for a RB - Vereen. If the Giants open up the offense does his role get minimized or even eliminated?

With all these weapons why am i only reading about checkdowns in practice, why did i only see a short passing offense vs the steelers? --I get that Johnson isnt eli and the receiver didnt play but i didnt see anything that said we may be trying to push the ball down field more.


Thoughts?



.  
arcarsenal : 8/14/2017 11:12 am : link
You want to see what happens if we go back to 5 and 7 step drops with long-developing routes? Go and watch some film from 2013. It's not pretty.
With more depth and explosiveness at the  
Section331 : 8/14/2017 11:15 am : link
receiver positions (including TE), I think we will see more downfield throws this year, but short passes to the flat are always going to be a staple of this offense. If you haven't noticed, it is also the staple of almost all NFL offenses.
because our mighty oline can only hold  
superspynyg : 8/14/2017 11:15 am : link
for 2-3 steps, if that.
The long pass  
Gman11 : 8/14/2017 11:36 am : link
can not be a staple of your offense. It's too high risk. If you're going to bomb away then you are going to see more turnovers.

That, and the OL has to give the play enough time to develop and not give up sacks to rookie defensive ends when playing your starters up front.
Personally, I care more about efficiency than explosiveness.  
Klaatu : 8/14/2017 11:38 am : link
Besides, we've got some guys who can turn short passes into long gains.

We do have to run the ball better, which should open up play-action, and should lead to some longer throws.
Even in the coughlin era  
mattlawson : 8/14/2017 11:42 am : link
They always practiced dink and dunk in the preseason. It was constant. That's what drove me nuts in the regular season save for the 2011 year -- be rbs Tes and fbs never got those passes. It was only after a 25 Int year that Eli made those plays. And even so Cruz and nicks took several short throws long distances.
Why?  
Big Blue '56 : 8/14/2017 11:47 am : link
Because we gameplan very comprehensively during the preseason. You should be worried. Very, very, worried
RE: Why?  
Larry in Pencilvania : 8/14/2017 11:52 am : link
In comment 13559743 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
Because we gameplan very comprehensively during the preseason. You should be worried. Very, very, worried


I am
We are a defensive heavy  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 8/14/2017 12:00 pm : link
team, so to play to our strengths we extend time of possession to rest our terrific D that will help us win games.

We also supplement the running game with the short pass, which theoretically opens up the run.

I think we'll score more points this year, but we don't need a complete change of philosophy.
Yes,  
Big Blue '56 : 8/14/2017 12:01 pm : link
preseason is a tremendous barometer..Eli, OBJ, Marshall, Engram, Perkins and Vereen, an average or a little below average OL and I'm petrified.
the entire league has moved to being an  
ECham : 8/14/2017 12:06 pm : link
efficient passing offense , even if you not a "west coast" team all teams have learnt from Bill Walsh that the short passes is the most efficient way to move the ball.

NE is a dink and dunk team. Go look at the Colts to see what happens when you run a lot of 7 step drops with a poor O line.. Your QB gets killed.
What SuperSpy said.  
Giant John : 8/14/2017 12:09 pm : link
OLine Blocking.
BlackburnBalledOut  
BigBlueWhale : 8/14/2017 12:18 pm : link
I share concerns with McAdoo's offense too. The hallmark so far has been struggling to score TDs outside insane individual efforts by OBJ. Yes - Eli sat on the bench last week and it was only preseason but there was McAdoo's not scoring TDs.

We don't seem to attack the end zone enough.

I like what I'm seeing with his personnel packages already tough. He's gone from only using Shotgun 11 personnel to lining up quite a bit under C in a double TE formation and even 22 personnel. He kept scraping Engram across the formation - away from the zone stretch. PERFECT way to use him - he either traps the NT if it's a run or keeps going into the flat if it's a pass. Puts the WLB in an impossible bind as it's his play to make on the stretch but Engram's also his man going the other way if it's play action.
And of course the RBs much QB under C so they can get a running start and see the defense better before taking the hand-off.
that's the offense  
HomerJones45 : 8/14/2017 12:27 pm : link
Not a particular fan of it either as I think all the slants and bubble screens beat the shit out of your smaller wideouts for 3, 4 and 5 yard gains but everyone knew that was the offense we were getting with McAdoo so there is no use grousing about it. Hopefully, he gets it working, takes advantage of some deep shots and get better results than last season.
The short pass is what a running game looks like nowadays.  
81_Great_Dane : 8/14/2017 1:10 pm : link
High percentage passes. Move the chains. It's the bread and butter of a modern offense.
I'm not a big fan of the west coast tendencies.  
Motley Two : 8/14/2017 1:11 pm : link
Shit is kinda bitch ball. I don't think it's a great fit for Eli either, but when it works it's hard to defend. Plus, with the current O-line the Giants don't really have a choice.

I'm more of a fan of a big powerful O'line that implements it's will on defenders and I think Eli is better when given time to work through reads, trust his protection & establish a rhythm, but the Oline just isn't there and hasn't been for a long time.
Dink/dunk is good because:  
CT Charlie : 8/14/2017 1:11 pm : link
1) with our O-line, we're more likely to get 5 yards passing than running
2) increased time of possession keeps scores low -- good with our defense
3) long TOP tires defenses, which helps at the end of close games

Dink/dunk is bad because:

4) it relies on making 1st downs repeatedly, which isn't easy
5) for the O-line, pass protection is more tiring than run blocking
6) the more you throw, the more likelihood of fumbles, INTs and stalled drives

Deep-ball is good because:

7) it demoralizes defenses
8) it tires out d-backs
9) it moves the ball in big chunks
10) interceptions often yield similar field position as punts
11) it's more fun for most fans

Conclusion?

12) actually, most good teams run the ball well
13) which makes everything easier
Why?  
annexOPR : 8/14/2017 1:19 pm : link
Not only is this offense predicated on up-tempo, quick hitting passes to your playmakers - something you want to do with guys like Beckham, Vereen, Shepard ... and now Engram/Marshall anyway - but this OL sucks. Limit turnovers, up-tempo pace, minimize OL deficiencies ...

You really want to see an immobile aging QB take 7 step drops behind this OL?
Because our that's our system  
AnishPatel : 8/14/2017 1:45 pm : link
Philosophy a D with a shitty OL it makes even more sense. I love this offense, I been waiting for this offense for a long time. If Eli had this offense from the get go I think people's whole perception of him changes. I love how he gets the ball out quick.

5 and 7 step passing concepts like the old system would get him killed.
Remember that a properly thrown dink or dunk to OBJ  
Jimmy Googs : 8/14/2017 1:49 pm : link
could be a 70 yard touchdown...
RE: Because our that's our system  
WillVAB : 8/14/2017 1:55 pm : link
In comment 13559983 AnishPatel said:
Quote:
Philosophy a D with a shitty OL it makes even more sense. I love this offense, I been waiting for this offense for a long time. If Eli had this offense from the get go I think people's whole perception of him changes. I love how he gets the ball out quick.

5 and 7 step passing concepts like the old system would get him killed.


This. The Giants don't have the OL to go PA or deep routes consistently.
With Ereck Flowers at LT  
lawguy9801 : 8/14/2017 2:07 pm : link
Eli needs to get the ball out as quickly as possible. I'm fine with dink and dunk, especially since we have guys who can take a short dink the length of the field.
CT Charlie:  
old man : 8/14/2017 4:04 pm : link
Well explained!!!!
.  
idiotsavant : 8/14/2017 4:56 pm : link
if you get play action, if the run works enough for that...
Defenses don't have any respect for the running game  
Jimmy Googs : 8/14/2017 5:52 pm : link
to even concern themselves with the Giants running play action...
RE: Remember that a properly thrown dink or dunk to OBJ  
81_Great_Dane : 8/14/2017 6:10 pm : link
In comment 13559994 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
could be a 70 yard touchdown...
This.
Why? Why? He wants to know WHY!!  
Route 9 : 8/14/2017 8:48 pm : link
LOL even when Eli hits his 3rd step, he still has someone in his face, with this offense
It's  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 8/14/2017 9:59 pm : link
a valid question, but we are what we are.

The commitment to go in this direction was made the minute Ben McAdoo was hired as an offensive coordinator and reinforced when he was promoted in favor of Tom Coughlin.

We are a finesse passing offense now. The good news is that many teams have succeeded in the NFL with this style, including at a Championship level.

The bad news is that this style of offense doesn't sit well with many old time Giants fans.
If you can't protect...  
Torrag : 8/15/2017 12:40 am : link
...and we can't, the ball has to come out quickly. Very quickly. That limits your looks downfield or you get your QB killed. The lesser of two evils is obvious.
I appreciate the feedback  
BlackburnBalledOut : 8/15/2017 1:30 am : link
to respond:
Gman11 -
"can not be a staple of your offense. It's too high risk. If you're going to bomb away then you are going to see more turnovers.
I in no way want to play chuck and pray deep ball offense, i just want them to throw the ball more then 4 yards past the line of scrimmage.


CT Charlie :
1) with our O-line, we're more likely to get 5 yards passing than running -

2) increased time of possession keeps scores low -- good with our defense - the giants have not been able to maintain drives, the avg T.O.P was 2:21 last year, good for 24th in the nfl.
3) long TOP tires defenses, which helps at the end of close games

yes to (1), but if the only method of gaining yards is by short pass the defenses come up and make life very difficult, its what the eagles have done to us over the last several years, they stack the box, blitz, and defend the short pass and run away with the game.

id like to add that with the addition of ellison's in-line blocking they should, in theory, have more for a play to develop. doesnt have to be far down field, just throw the damn ball past the flats.

Thank you all.
The bottom line is  
NikkiMac : 8/15/2017 10:58 am : link
No matter what style we play teams are going to challenge us to beat cover 2 starting with Dallas ... We need to set that tone right away !
A great question and the answer is...  
The Tempest : 8/15/2017 1:19 pm : link
Because we cannot run the ball effectively. We cannot count on throwing for 10+ yards on first and second down. It really doesn't make a difference how many receiving weapons we have on offense if the Giants can't run the ball.

Better opponents we face will simply sit in a big dime defense all day long and keep everything in front of them.
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