NFT: Help dealing with/reasoning with an anti vaxxer ex wife?

There isn't much point getting into an argument about the science, because she'll just dismiss the evidence as pharma propaganda. Instead, you could concede the anti-vaxers' central thesis that some vaccines/preservatives do more harm than good to very young children; then point out, with sincere regret, that in your daughter's case the damage is done. Going forward, even most vaccine skeptics would agree that the benefits outweigh the risks for a tween/teen. This approach requires you to swallow your noble urge to vanquish ignorance and obstinacy. You will have to give quarter to the convictions of an idiot whose gullibility has no doubt caused you and your family untold frustration and probably cost you a lot of money. But you just might achieve the goal of protecting your daughter from irreparable harm.

and if she persists you'll sue for sole custody, and she can spout her anti-vax nonsense to a judge.

...I'm not sure it serves the interests of an eleven-year-old child who has spent much of her life in the middle of fights like this. Threatening a custody battle seems like a last-resort nuclear option, and one that could easily fail, leaving everyone angrier, poorer and no healthier than before There are less-aggressive legal tactics, if it comes to that. I hope it won't, for the sake of the whole family.

for your ex-wife to step on.

Does that count as anti-vax or is it only the ones children get while they are still developing?

To a pro vax man

Hopefully they share your view. Ypu should talk to the pediatrician as well to bwst understand the risks moving forward if you have not.

In comment 13560669 Big Blue Blogger said:

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...I'm not sure it serves the interests of an eleven-year-old child who has spent much of her life in the middle of fights like this. Threatening a custody battle seems like a last-resort nuclear option, and one that could easily fail, leaving everyone angrier, poorer and no healthier than before There are less-aggressive legal tactics, if it comes to that. I hope it won't, for the sake of the whole family.

Anti-vaxxers are unfit parents.

not sure what advice to give other than don't give in. Most of the anti-vaccine scare is when kids are very young and you are passed that anyway. My neighbor who we are incredibly close to is anti vaccine and goes on long tangents about it all the time. When our daughter was still a baby she gave my wife a book on anti vaccine which IMO was very inappropriate for her to do. Basically corners you about it and gets pissex if you don't agree.

It's nuts. Can't be around people like that and I have to change the subject or just remove myself from the room if it's brought up.

Bigblueblogger: that sounds like very sound advice. Unfortunately I'm dealing with someone so strong willed and set in her ways that at this point she is too invested in being "right". My main concern at this point is simply that if she does get her way any harm would be mitigated by the fact that she's at least up to date

Deej: I'd love to do that and more... but for my daughters sake we've at least kept up the appearance of being cordial and I'd like to avoid a mess if at all possible. I may threaten it though

Thanks for all other input on this thread as well

next time you have your daughter take her to get the appropriate vaccinations she hasn't had, HPV probably, maybe TDAP or meningitis too.

She's probably stupid in a whole host of other ways. Hopefully your kid will rise above before she thinks the earth is flat.

You don't even know the half. She's unemployed and has nothing better to do than sit on her couch all day watching conspiracy videos. She believes she's being followed constantly (to the degree where she is suspicious of every airplane she sees in the sky, like the government is devoting those kind of resources to her when there are known terrorists who we can't even track to that degree). She's fallen for a multi level marketing scheme that she believed would make her a millionaire in a couple months. 5 years later, not a dime richer, and she still buys into it fully. Thankfully my daughter is already old enough to realize something isn't quite right there. She wasn't always this way, this has only been going on about 5 years.

Pj, sounds like a good idea. I assume at this point those are pretty much the only ones to worry about right?

the sooner you get her away from the nutjob the better. Id seek sole custody for your daughters sake. In the meantime, have her come for a weekend on a Fri and take her to get all the vaccinations. Nothing the ex can do about it.

Getting your daughter get out of that environment should be a priority. Take her to court if you must to gain full custody. Assuming you have shared custody now. When your duaghter hits puberty... All hell is going to break loose if your wife is as strong willed as you say.

In comment 13560690 LatHarv83 said:

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You don't even know the half. She's unemployed and has nothing better to do than sit on her couch all day watching conspiracy videos. She believes she's being followed constantly (to the degree where she is suspicious of every airplane she sees in the sky, like the government is devoting those kind of resources to her when there are known terrorists who we can't even track to that degree). She's fallen for a multi level marketing scheme that she believed would make her a millionaire in a couple months. 5 years later, not a dime richer, and she still buys into it fully. Thankfully my daughter is already old enough to realize something isn't quite right there. She wasn't always this way, this has only been going on about 5 years. Pj, sounds like a good idea. I assume at this point those are pretty much the only ones to worry about right?

Yes, I think those are the only ones at this age and many are required by school systems unless you cite religious reasons, but it seems like some school systems have been bending on this policy and I won't get into reasons why.

you will/should involve your daughter who by your email is getting older. The right words and reasoning with your daughter turns this into 2 against 1 when it comes to whose rational is stronger.

Not ideal but my guess is your ex-wife begins to back down...

not email

your wife ever been seen by a mental health specialist? Symptoms/personality traits you described sound like a possible un-diagnosed mental health condition. I am not sure how well that would go over coming from you, but if you still have a relationship with her family that could be a possible inroads to get her seen by a professional. Best of luck.

but there are some red flags in your comments above about your ex. Sounds like she may not just be gullible, but may also have a mental issue. I know it's just a few comments, but that level of paranoia doesn't seem good for your daughter to be around, even if she gets that something isn't right. Is there any way you can get the ex some help? Sounds like she wouldn't agree or is unlikely to accept help, but that's not a good environment for your kid, and you never know when things can spiral. Especially as you said, she wasn't always at that level - could be sign things are slipping...

Is there a valid reason she gives for why the gov't should devote such surveillance to her? Is she on meds/drugs? History of mental issues? Understand the immediate concern is the vax issue, but sounds like your daughter should have already rec'd most of the key ones, but she still has another 7 or so years of living in that environment of paranoia, gullibility, conspiracy theories, etc - at best, likely to warp her mind and world view, at worst the mom drags her down. I'd be pretty concerned about that, more so even than the vax.

Why not just get the last batch of vaccines for your daughter and not tell the ex? Just say she's getting a routine check up or something.

I have a brother who legitimately thinks the world is flat. So I have experience with family members consumed by conspiracy theories.

One thing you can do is in a perfectly calm voice ask your ex wife what evidence would it take for you (her) to change your (her) mind about the vaccines? If she doesn't give you an answer as to what it would take for her to change her mind, there is no point in getting into a debate with her.

I made the mistake of debating my brother on the science of some issues and all it did was hurt our relationship. Now I don't even bring it up.

Lastly, for what its worth the last time I saw my doctor for a routine checkup he thought the anti vaccine stuff was not supported by scientific studies. He got fired up and went off on a tirade about people pursuing an agenda who don't understand how scientific studies are conducted.

She has some sort of undiagnosed mental illness. Add hypochondriac to her list of bizarre behaviors. Every day she's convinced she has a new disease. For a while she thought she had that thing the brother from "better call saul" had where you freak out over electromagnetic frequencies. I'd show up at the house and all the electricity would be off. That phase lasted like a month. Then she was convinced she had Lyme disease despite negative test after negative test. There have been others along the way. She has nervous breakdowns where she cries like a baby (literally) for no good reason. And at the risk of sounding overly mystical, you can see it in her eyes, she's not right. I've suggested getting seen by someone....but it falls on deaf ears. Especially with me as the messenger. She'd rather walk through a fire pit than have me be right about anything...

As far as the surveillance, there is no good reason at all to have concern but that doesn't stop her. She used to have a circle of about 6 friends who were close as sisters since elementary school, totally inseparable....none are in her life now. She's doesn't come close to resembling the woman I met. This is all relatively recent (5 years or so).

As far as getting her parents involved, the dynamic of their relationship is such that they must walk on eggshells around her. If they try and tell her something she doesn't want to hear she will use our daughter as a weapon and deprive them of her presence for a couple months.

Long story short... she's batshit, not gonna seek help. I'm
In my daughters life as much as conceivably possible to mitigate any influence, but she's smart enough to know something is off with mommy. I'm gonna try my best to get these few vaccines done, just happy this dumb idea didn't occur to her years ago and gave me more ground to catch up on

and I despise anti vaxxers with a passion. Unfortunately it's impossible to reason with insanity.

I'm also dealing with a bat shit crazy ex. Yours sounds almost exactly like mine. I have no advice to help but can feel your pain.

My daughter sees the craziness in her mother and wants to get away from it. Unfortunately the courts are not much help.

I wouldn't want my kids within 50 feet of her. I'd have a lawyer working on this asap. It's not healthy for your daughter to be around such an unstable person. That's not debatable. Perhaps you can explain to her what's happening and why you're doing this. Make it somewhat simple for her to understand and most importantly, not internalize what's happening as somehow her fault.

But the bottom line is that you need to protect your daughter at all costs. If your ex is as batshit crazy and unstable as you say, I'd be starting proceedings like yesterday.

As for the anti-vax bit - my kids have to have their IMMs done in order to even attend school or play sports. Is that not the case in your area?

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Why not just get the last batch of vaccines for your daughter and not tell the ex? Just say she's getting a routine check up or something.

I agree with this strategy ..

if your wife takes you to court or this
she will be at worse laughed out of court .. at best .. it will strengthen you hand in have say over issues with your daughter.

This many posts and no one suggested blasting the ex wife in the butt?

Shame on you, BBI...

Good luck on your end too

B... as I understand it my ex is going to exercise loopholes to try and get around the vaccines as there are supposedly exemptions. But she's gone as far to say she's willing to have her home schooled if she can't accomplish that. If it gets to that point, you better believe I'm raising hell and high water... I still have my daughter about half the time anyway, and other than being a total oddball it's not like she abuses her (physically at least)...Although witnessing this behavior is admittedly not the best thing in the world. I'm just conflicted here because I don't want to be seen as getting between her and her mother even if it's completely justified

Just want to again thank everyone for their 2 cents. Internet anonymity allows me to be more open in this space than I otherwise would be in any other setting outside of a small circle of friends and my current wife... so getting new feedback is appreciated

is an anti vaxxer. I'm only grateful that our lives are so mismatched in terms of time and space that we are never able to even get the kids together. They have never met. Not that I am paranoid that one or two play dates would cause any problems, but i'd rather not deal with that crap. This is a rational open minded guy. His wife is too. Somehow that got into each other's heads and came up with NO vaccines. Insane to me. I don't offer my opinion only say "whatever works for you" --but I did sneak in a line about how we'd be in huge trouble if everyone was an anti vaccer. He basically started spinning more shit and I ignored it and changed the subject.

That said, does your ex-wife, her general paranoia about the vaccine industry notwithstanding, have any sense of trust in your daughter's pediatrician? Or even her own doctors? They're probably the best ones to give her an honest, level assessment that she's endangering her child. What about close friends of hers you could try to enlist (if you're still on communicating terms with any of them). Not sure what else, other the nuclear option of making it a legal issue, which you may want to avoid for your daughter's sake. Good luck!

but if you met these people you wouldn't think they are unstable at all. That's what makes shit like this scary. These aren't wack jobs. They just don't trust vaccines.

I think it's more selfish and paranoid than anything else. Unstable isn't a word i'd use.

...cmon.

In comment 13561082 giantfan2000 said:

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Quote: Why not just get the last batch of vaccines for your daughter and not tell the ex? Just say she's getting a routine check up or something. I agree with this strategy .. if your wife takes you to court or this she will be at worse laughed out of court .. at best .. it will strengthen you hand in have say over issues with your daughter.

You're wrong. She won't be laughed out of court.

I would sit down and document all the craziness. The Vax thing is the least of your problems at this point. It sounds like Deej was right...you need to go to court for sole custody of your daughter. Speak to her parents as well, chances are they see the same things you do and will support you if they feel it is the right thing to do for their grand daughter. Hopefully, that relationship workable for you.

In comment 13561085 arcarsenal said:

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This many posts and no one suggested blasting the ex wife in the butt? Shame on you, BBI...

Or at least a #1

First, I'm sorry you're dealing with this crap.

Some of the things you can do depend to some degree on which state you live in. We had my husband's seven year old son this summer and wanted him to see a counselor. The counselor had to make sure we had permission from my stepson's mother before she could proceed (we live in Virginia). Now I don't know if the same standard would apply to traditional medical treatment/vaccines or what state you live in so I am just bringing up the possibility that the doctor you see for the vaccination may ask if both parents agree with it. And, if that's the case, perhaps you keep going to different doctors until one is willing to do it without asking that question. This is the route I would probably take were I in your situation.

Next, I grew up with a crazy mother, so I know what that is like (terrible). When my parents separated (though still living in the same house, just in separate bedrooms), I went to court to tell the judge that I wanted to live in my house with just my dad - I don't recall exactly how old I was at the time but I think I was about 12. I am a woman, if that makes any difference so I was a little girl choosing to live with my dad. The judge did order that, though for a variety of reasons, my mother did not actually move out for a couple more years and it was a very tough situation. This was a very long time ago and I know courts change but I figured I would offer up my experience since it doesn't sound too dissimilar from what's going on with you. Children do have some sway in their circumstances, especially as they get older.

Good luck.

In comment 13560683 pjcas18 said:

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next time you have your daughter take her to get the appropriate vaccinations she hasn't had, HPV probably, maybe TDAP or meningitis too.

This is exactly what you should do. Don't argue with your ex, don't even bring it up as an issue.

But if your daughter needs another Vaccination, just take her to the doctor and get it.

BTW, your ex does not sound like a great person because she is turning your daughter into a pawn in her struggle to be right. That is pretty damn selfish

In comment 13561098 djm said:

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but if you met these people you wouldn't think they are unstable at all. That's what makes shit like this scary. These aren't wack jobs. They just don't trust vaccines. I think it's more selfish and paranoid than anything else. Unstable isn't a word i'd use.

I think that this is fair. I don't understand anti-vaxxers at all...however, these are not generally wingnut types. Some are insular religious types for sure, but there were tons of stories, especially in the measles outbreaks, about groups of educated, middle-class, socially liberals (in CA if that is relevant) being the prominent anti-vaxxers. And. every year on BBI were seem to have vibrant discussions about all the people among us, who refuse to get annual flu shots. Generally reasonable people who have some story or other to tell. I look at it like everybody has something that others think is nuts. The anti-vaxx person demeans the climate change denier who bashes the GMO person who is mocking the gluten-free folk, who ridicules the person with chronic lyme. These are not all one group; everyone is something.

On this particular question, home-schooling might solve the problem but, if your daughter wants to go to college, most schools require the meningococcal vaccine. And, the hpv (for men and women) vaccine is important. Besides the std element, it can prevent cervical cancer in women. I don't think you daughter will have had either vaccine at this point. I think Gardisil requires you to get her surreptitiously vaccinated three times.

My sister married an anti-vaxxer and they had three kids together. Later they divorced. A couple of years after that she met a neat guy and they got engaged. The day off her wedding her youngest son broke out in measles, which he had never been vaccinated for. She tried to keep him away from all the guests, many of whom had flown in for the event.

A few days after the wedding we all were notified by the CDC that we had to go visit the county health center to receive additional vaccinations. Everyone, all the wedding guests, even those who had previously been vaccinated for the measles.

Honeymoon plans were cancelled at the last minute.

The cdc also notified his employer (a large utility company) that he had been exposed and shut down his plant. This way reported on the local news channels and is how she was introduced to all his co-workers and neighbors in the community.

This is all true, and at least should give her pause.

is contact her pediatrician and request a copy of her vaccination record and find out the schedule for whatever is remaining. If she is not up to date when it is time for college, most (if not all) universities will not allow her to register.

As for the HPV vaccination, we have thus far held off for our soon to be 13 year old son. We may hold off altogether on that one, as we don't feel enough research was done, especially in regards to potential long term effects. Our doctor didn't really disagree, which said a lot to us also. But, everything else is up to date.

In comment 13561252 Dan in the Springs said:

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My sister married an anti-vaxxer and they had three kids together. Later they divorced. A couple of years after that she met a neat guy and they got engaged. The day off her wedding her youngest son broke out in measles, which he had never been vaccinated for. She tried to keep him away from all the guests, many of whom had flown in for the event. A few days after the wedding we all were notified by the CDC that we had to go visit the county health center to receive additional vaccinations. Everyone, all the wedding guests, even those who had previously been vaccinated for the measles. Honeymoon plans were cancelled at the last minute. The cdc also notified his employer (a large utility company) that he had been exposed and shut down his plant. This way reported on the local news channels and is how she was introduced to all his co-workers and neighbors in the community. This is all true, and at least should give her pause.

This reminds me of conversations we had with then anti-vaccination friends. They have since had their kids vaccinated (we think). They were unfazed that it could be dangerous to travel outside the country (we just won't go anywhere) or that other kids would be at risk (that's why they are vaccinated). But, what really got us was the cavalier attitude when we asked them what would happen if they somehow came in contact with measles, for example. Their response was, well we'll just take them to the hospital. They have to treat us.

This lunacy didn't last very long, thankfully.

In comment 13561269 Matt M. said:

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is contact her pediatrician and request a copy of her vaccination record and find out the schedule for whatever is remaining. If she is not up to date when it is time for college, most (if not all) universities will not allow her to register. As for the HPV vaccination, we have thus far held off for our soon to be 13 year old son. We may hold off altogether on that one, as we don't feel enough research was done, especially in regards to potential long term effects. Our doctor didn't really disagree, which said a lot to us also. But, everything else is up to date.

Also, if she is not up to date at any point, her school may not allow her to continue to attend. I know NYC sends home notices when a student is out of compliance and there is a small window to schedule the missing vaccinations before they remove the student from school.