NFT: Knicks Chat: Cavs want KP for Irving (yeah no thanks)

And I want Kyrie for Melo. Both won't happen so lets just move on.

gist of the article basically makes it sound like there is almost no chance Kyrie is a Knick. They want a long term building block. Not Melo.

Unfortunately there is no match. I wouldn't want Melo either if I was them. Just not a good fit.

for Melo in the Cavs situation is something the Knicks would do historically. We'd be screaming about a young piece and we'd trade for Lamarcus Aldridge.

but to be fair I have more concerns than I did a year ago. I dont care about him skipping the meeting from a professionalism POV, but I do have worried that he'll have a wandering eye.

More fundamentally, he didnt improve over his rookie season. He played more minutes, and that pushed up his PPG stats. Per 36 minutes, he was +1.8 points, -1.4 rebounds, -.3 blocks, +.5 fouls, assists and steals flat. Best improvement was in eFG% which went from 46.7% to 50.7% on the strength of better shooting <3 feet, 10-16 feet, and from 3, plus him getting away from shooting from 16-3P (worst shot on the floor). PER, WS48, BPM, VORP were virtually unchanged.

After 1 season he was ahead of Dirk. After 2 I think he's behind Dirk. Towns, the other super rookie from 2015/16, jumped another .050 in WS48 and is now double KP.

After 1 season KP looked like he was clearly on a path to being a top 10 player. After 2 seasons I have more doubts.

what actual players would the Knicks even consider if they gave away KP? He's a 22 year old 7'3 who averaged 18, 7, and 2 blocks a game on a terrible team in his second season.

being behind Dirk is not like...a terrible thing. Dirk is a first ballot hall of famer.

be a consideration in trading KP. Any trade that doesn't result in the Knicks having KP and Irving makes no sense. The young player they're getting is Frank Ntilikina and a draft pick.

Of the trades mentioned, the only one that might actually be considered is Jamal Murray (mostly because he's not on the same level as the other people mentioned).

got from the Cleveland front office.

that's not a bad consolation prize.

In comment 13560742 ryanmkeane said:

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being behind Dirk is not like...a terrible thing. Dirk is a first ballot hall of famer.

Oh sure. And Towns looks like the best center to enter the league since Shaq.

My concern is that he's got an eye on the door and that last year he didnt get one ounce better, except in shooting (which is super important).

Now there are counterarguments. Last year was an organizational shitshow. He's still in a boy's body. The original projection that he wouldnt contribute for years because of his body were wrong (and I disagreed at the time), but they were right that his body is a work in progress, moreso than KAT or Dirk etc. Still, it's far from certain that he'll be more than a #2/#3 type player on a great team, as opposed to the #1. Luckily I think he has the mental makeup to be the #1, which is so important.

Im not looking to trade KP, and certainly not for a Kyrie type -- I much prefer the lottery ticket of a potential #1 player on a title team. But I have to acknowledge that last season was a disappointment developmentally.

yeah.. Cavs stupid even ansking

for trying to take advantage of the worst organization in the sport.

is not a single NBA contract worth pairing with KP just to dump it.

in a deal for Irving if the Cavs took back Noah?

Christ almighty...

think KP will ever be able to create off the dribble enough to be considered a no 1.

But he's an elite shooter and shot blocker, so you can build a defense around him and he'll fit into any offense you want to run.

In comment 13560789 djm said:

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in a deal for Irving if the Cavs took back Noah? Christ almighty...

I trash the Knicks all the time but the piece implies they are not interested in that... as of right now at least.

Seems as though he's pretty good at that right now and his size makes it much easier. KP is very athletic and he will have a really good post game. He's def got #1 potential.

In comment 13560736 Deej said:

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but to be fair I have more concerns than I did a year ago. I dont care about him skipping the meeting from a professionalism POV, but I do have worried that he'll have a wandering eye. More fundamentally, he didnt improve over his rookie season. He played more minutes, and that pushed up his PPG stats. Per 36 minutes, he was +1.8 points, -1.4 rebounds, -.3 blocks, +.5 fouls, assists and steals flat. Best improvement was in eFG% which went from 46.7% to 50.7% on the strength of better shooting <3 feet, 10-16 feet, and from 3, plus him getting away from shooting from 16-3P (worst shot on the floor). PER, WS48, BPM, VORP were virtually unchanged. After 1 season he was ahead of Dirk. After 2 I think he's behind Dirk. Towns, the other super rookie from 2015/16, jumped another .050 in WS48 and is now double KP. After 1 season KP looked like he was clearly on a path to being a top 10 player. After 2 seasons I have more doubts.

I do agree here -- this is a big year for KP and the Knicks. It would have been nice to improve the backcourt for for KP's growth heading into this 3rd year but alas...Sessions and the Kid will have to do.

really wish they would have dumped the Asian Porn fiend. I don't think he's helped KP.

enough to entertain trading KP again, it's safe to say there will be teams offering us better packages then a Cavs offer comprised primarily of Irving.

In comment 13560797 DanMetroMan said:

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In comment 13560789 djm said: Quote: in a deal for Irving if the Cavs took back Noah? Christ almighty... I trash the Knicks all the time but the piece implies they are not interested in that... as of right now at least.

I put little stock in these articles but I thought it implied that the Knicks would be interested in a deal if Noah was part of it. Whatever, it's all speculation. I can't believe it. Won't believe it.

should be better this year just due to the fact that he'll have a starting PG who actually passes to him.

In comment 13560779 Keith said:

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for trying to take advantage of the worst organization in the sport.

Up until about a month ago,I'd agree with this 100%. But, in the short time Perry has been here,we've seen him add his own people to the front office & we've seen him take a step back from the Melo trade. Now I still believe that Melo will be traded but not unless the Knicks actually receive some benefit from it. This is because of Perry. Phil would have bought him out & Mills would have taken back shit for him but Perry realizes that either the Knicks get back someone/something of quality for Melo or.worse case scenario, Melo starts the season as a Knick. This forces the Rockets/Melo's hand not the Knicks.

As far as KP, I don't think anyone on the roster is untouchable but KP is as close as that comes.The Knicks would have to be overwhelmed to move KP & Kyrie isn't that.I think Perry is happy to build w/KP,Frank,THJr,Willy & Dotson. If we get another young player for Melo,all the better. I think for the first time in a long time,the Knicks actually have a plan!

In comment 13560798 Keith said:

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Seems as though he's pretty good at that right now and his size makes it much easier. KP is very athletic and he will have a really good post game. He's def got #1 potential.

He may get pretty good at it, but he is absolutely not right now. What is his go to move? He has 0 post game. He has trouble getting any position in the post in fact.

At no point were/ are the cavs interested in melo unless they keep their big 3. Leaving kp as the only asset on the knicks that the cavs would look to trade kyrie for. The cavs- and everyone- know kp is a unicorn.
Cavs want a young stud- most are untouchable like kp and booker. But they aren't trading kyrie for vets. The studs (outside of the top 2) of this 2017 draft class make the most sense

I think isn't correct. He averaged 20-8-2 until his injury in January, dropped to 14-5-2 over the following month of the injury, then 18-7-2 over the rest of the season. He tried to come back too fast from the injury to his own statistical detriment. He shot 40% from the 3 prior to injury and 30% for the balance of the season. It matches the narrative he provided in his post season press interviews; “Until I got hurt with the Achilles, I was playing a very high level, very consistently, every night, but still we weren’t playing at the level that we wanted to as a team, so that didn’t really do anything for me,’’ Porzingis said. “But I liked the consistency. I was out there playing at a high level. Then the injuries, little things [that] happened got me out of my rhythm. Then it was kind of on and off, some games good, some games not so good. I was trying to find that rhythm for a long time. Then the second part of the season, it was just a big fight for us and mentally tough. I think I grew from this season.’’

It's not refined or NBA ready to be a focal point yet. He's too weak and gets pushed out of position, but he is a very talented player when his back is to the basket or he's facing the basket. Saying he can't or even that he wont be able to create his own shot is just off base, IMO. He can already do that now and he still has a ton or room to grow.

article on Frank
Link - ( New Window )

Rise stunted KP's development. Plus he was ahead of his rookie pace before he got hurt.

hurt KP. He needs to be the focal point of the offense, IMO. It would def help to play with a PG that got him good looks and got him the ball in good spots, but standing on the 3 pt line while Melo holds the ball for 20 seconds doesn't help either.

Around the NBA, there are questions about how long the Knicks will refuse dealing their 7-foot-3 rising star, with Cleveland’s Kyrie Irving on the market and the Cavaliers reportedly zeroing in on Porzingis as a target.

The Knicks, so far, have dismissed any conversations that include Porzingis in a trade with Cleveland, according to ESPN, but league executives reportedly are wondering if the Knicks will blink with a star like Irving — or a star of his caliber — available.

the perception of the Knicks is slightly worse than the reality. It's like the Knicks don't have a choice in the matter.

How long until the Knicks are forced to give in to Cleveland and move KP??

and Cavs would probably prefer KP to any other player they can ask for, so BS articles like this get put out in hopes of moving the Knicks.

Even the worst of past Knicks GMs and decision makers would realize trading KP for Irving is complete stupidity.

In comment 13561062 shockeyisthebest8056 said:

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and Cavs would probably prefer KP to any other player they can ask for, so BS articles like this get put out in hopes of moving the Knicks. Even the worst of past Knicks GMs and decision makers would realize trading KP for Irving is complete stupidity.

You are giving past GM's way too much credit.

In comment 13560803 DanMetroMan said:

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really wish they would have dumped the Asian Porn fiend. I don't think he's helped KP.

I'm shocked by this too. By all accounts he's not well liked by KP or the players. And putting him in charge of defense is a joke. Why is he still around?

they're not trading KP this summer, period. Until they do that, I worry about the buzz.

Remember, this is a TERRIBLY run team and the KP and the Knicks not communicating stuff isnt disappearing.

a terribly run team. I'm willing to give Perry a shot.

In comment 13561139 Jon in NYC said:

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a terribly run team. I'm willing to give Perry a shot.

My operating position is that it's the same owner, the same flunkies etc. The problem wasnt Phil. Phil was one in a line of failed GM/President because the organization stinks. There was not an overhaul in the organization this summer -- just some substitutions.

What are the chances the Knicks hold all of KP, Frank, and the next 2 #1s and make a real go of a development cycle? I dont put it at even 25%. The organization is far too impatient. Like the guy who fritters away every paycheck on a game of dice. Even when he wins, he bets into it and loses.

Tristan Thompson and take back Noah I might do that.

Knicks give
Porzingis

Noah

Cavs give
Irving
Thompson

way.

In comment 13561153 andrew_nyg said:

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Tristan Thompson and take back Noah I might do that. Knicks give Porzingis Noah Cavs give Irving Thompson

Why? What's the end goal? Two guys in their prime who probably cant beat the Durant-Warriors WITH LEBRON AS A TEAMMATE? But who are good enough to keep you away from very high picks?

Thompson is also very overrated IMO. He's an average player. I think some of the advanced stats like him, but I think the advanced stats dont do a great job on low usage and high usage players. They value efficiency too much IMO. Thompson not only doesnt shoot, he doesnt even touch the ball. He's owed a lot of money to do very little on offense.

I think it's totally nuts for this Knicks team to be sacrificing assets (some of KP's value) to get rid of the Noah contract. Again, to what end? Why do we need that cap space right now?

In comment 13560736 Deej said:

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but to be fair I have more concerns than I did a year ago. I dont care about him skipping the meeting from a professionalism POV, but I do have worried that he'll have a wandering eye. More fundamentally, he didnt improve over his rookie season. He played more minutes, and that pushed up his PPG stats. Per 36 minutes, he was +1.8 points, -1.4 rebounds, -.3 blocks, +.5 fouls, assists and steals flat. Best improvement was in eFG% which went from 46.7% to 50.7% on the strength of better shooting <3 feet, 10-16 feet, and from 3, plus him getting away from shooting from 16-3P (worst shot on the floor). PER, WS48, BPM, VORP were virtually unchanged. After 1 season he was ahead of Dirk. After 2 I think he's behind Dirk. Towns, the other super rookie from 2015/16, jumped another .050 in WS48 and is now double KP. After 1 season KP looked like he was clearly on a path to being a top 10 player. After 2 seasons I have more doubts.

I think you are looking for him to sustain his numbers as he plays more minutes. A lot of guys can put up good stats per 36 in limited playing time but only quality starters can do it playing full time.

So, I think his second year numbers are fine.

I think top 10 players was just a bit unrealistic for KPP. He is not going to be in the category with Lebron, Durant, Harden, Curry etc . . .I also think Towns is an all-around better player, though KPP might turn out to be the better scorer

In comment 13561168 Deej said:

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In comment 13561153 andrew_nyg said: Quote: Tristan Thompson and take back Noah I might do that. Knicks give Porzingis Noah Cavs give Irving Thompson Why? What's the end goal? Two guys in their prime who probably cant beat the Durant-Warriors WITH LEBRON AS A TEAMMATE? But who are good enough to keep you away from very high picks? Thompson is also very overrated IMO. He's an average player. I think some of the advanced stats like him, but I think the advanced stats dont do a great job on low usage and high usage players. They value efficiency too much IMO. Thompson not only doesnt shoot, he doesnt even touch the ball. He's owed a lot of money to do very little on offense. I think it's totally nuts for this Knicks team to be sacrificing assets (some of KP's value) to get rid of the Noah contract. Again, to what end? Why do we need that cap space right now?

+1000000. Thompson is a solid role player. Nothing more and has zero additional upside. He's going into year 7 of his career.

am/was strongly in the DO NOT TRADE camp... that being said the only KP trade that had a rationale argument was Ainge "overpaying" with picks and the Knicks gambling on multiple lotto tickets landing vs. 1 KP. Even then I was strongly against it but trading in a deal (in part) to rid themselves of Noah would be farcical. It should be noted that Noah (and I absolutely despised the signing) was not as bad as people want to believe. .106 WS/48, 15.2 PER, KP has praised him in the locker room, fluent in French (helps Frank). It's not as if Noah was so bad that it's impossible to see a scenario where he's moved to a contending team in a year for a guy with 1 year left or even expiring deals. He's not Jared Jeffries.

In comment 13561255 DanMetroMan said:

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am/was strongly in the DO NOT TRADE camp... that being said the only KP trade that had a rationale argument was Ainge "overpaying" with picks and the Knicks gambling on multiple lotto tickets landing vs. 1 KP. Even then I was strongly against it but trading in a deal (in part) to rid themselves of Noah would be farcical. It should be noted that Noah (and I absolutely despised the signing) was not as bad as people want to believe. .106 WS/48, 15.2 PER, KP has praised him in the locker room, fluent in French (helps Frank). It's not as if Noah was so bad that it's impossible to see a scenario where he's moved to a contending team in a year for a guy with 1 year left or even expiring deals. He's not Jared Jeffries.

Agreed. I feel similarly.

In comment 13561144 Deej said:

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In comment 13561139 Jon in NYC said: Quote: a terribly run team. I'm willing to give Perry a shot. My operating position is that it's the same owner, the same flunkies etc. The problem wasnt Phil. Phil was one in a line of failed GM/President because the organization stinks. There was not an overhaul in the organization this summer -- just some substitutions. What are the chances the Knicks hold all of KP, Frank, and the next 2 #1s and make a real go of a development cycle? I dont put it at even 25%. The organization is far too impatient. Like the guy who fritters away every paycheck on a game of dice. Even when he wins, he bets into it and loses.

Dolan has actually been pretty hands off recently. The problem was Phil was just a massive disappointment. If Perry proves competent I can't imagine Dolan will meddle. If it's anyone who interferes it'll be Mills, but he at least seems pretty on board with the youth movement.

We'll see, but I'm cautiously optimistic. You can win with a KP-Frank-Willy-THJR-Picks core.

In comment 13561273 Jon in NYC said:

Quote:

In comment 13561144 Deej said: Quote: In comment 13561139 Jon in NYC said: Quote: a terribly run team. I'm willing to give Perry a shot. My operating position is that it's the same owner, the same flunkies etc. The problem wasnt Phil. Phil was one in a line of failed GM/President because the organization stinks. There was not an overhaul in the organization this summer -- just some substitutions. What are the chances the Knicks hold all of KP, Frank, and the next 2 #1s and make a real go of a development cycle? I dont put it at even 25%. The organization is far too impatient. Like the guy who fritters away every paycheck on a game of dice. Even when he wins, he bets into it and loses. Dolan has actually been pretty hands off recently. The problem was Phil was just a massive disappointment. If Perry proves competent I can't imagine Dolan will meddle. If it's anyone who interferes it'll be Mills, but he at least seems pretty on board with the youth movement. We'll see, but I'm cautiously optimistic. You can win with a KP-Frank-Willy-THJR-Picks core.

Steve Mills is Perry's boss, so no, Dolan hasnt been hands off.

Im sorry, but benefit of the doubt time went out the window years ago. The organization is rotten to its core. There is no new organizational leadership -- just a new basketball guy who doesnt even have final BB say. And some BB underlings.

In comment 13561243 Vanzetti said:

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I think top 10 players was just a bit unrealistic for KPP. He is not going to be in the category with Lebron, Durant, Harden, Curry etc . . .I also think Towns is an all-around better player, though KPP might turn out to be the better scorer

I think if KP puts in 25 ppg, 9.3 blocks (his rookie per 36 rate), 2.4 blocks (same), on 50-40ish-80 shooting, he's a top 10 player. I think scoring ability and defense are the key skills in the NBA and he can be better than KAT in both.

KP's shooting/scoring in particular could make a team, in the way Dirk's did. He wont win a scoring title, but a 7'3 guy with a hair trigger release causes havoc on Ds. You wont necessarily need a lot more dynamism. In fact, I could see KP, a dynamic guard, a bench scorer, and a bunch of defensive specialists being a powerhouse.

In comment 13561318 Deej said:

Quote:

In comment 13561273 Jon in NYC said: Quote: In comment 13561144 Deej said: Quote: In comment 13561139 Jon in NYC said: Quote: a terribly run team. I'm willing to give Perry a shot. My operating position is that it's the same owner, the same flunkies etc. The problem wasnt Phil. Phil was one in a line of failed GM/President because the organization stinks. There was not an overhaul in the organization this summer -- just some substitutions. What are the chances the Knicks hold all of KP, Frank, and the next 2 #1s and make a real go of a development cycle? I dont put it at even 25%. The organization is far too impatient. Like the guy who fritters away every paycheck on a game of dice. Even when he wins, he bets into it and loses. Dolan has actually been pretty hands off recently. The problem was Phil was just a massive disappointment. If Perry proves competent I can't imagine Dolan will meddle. If it's anyone who interferes it'll be Mills, but he at least seems pretty on board with the youth movement. We'll see, but I'm cautiously optimistic. You can win with a KP-Frank-Willy-THJR-Picks core. Steve Mills is Perry's boss, so no, Dolan hasnt been hands off. Im sorry, but benefit of the doubt time went out the window years ago. The organization is rotten to its core. There is no new organizational leadership -- just a new basketball guy who doesnt even have final BB say. And some BB underlings.

I'm not sure what Mills running the team has to do with Dolan other than him being a guy Dolan hired/trusts.