for display only
Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

NFT: Is it me or are the umps screwing Judge?

mavric : 8/15/2017 9:19 am
I know Judge is in a bit of a slump, but I've watched every game since the All Star break and it seems every pitcher has figured out that if you throw the ball "low and away" (including out of the strike zone) - the umpires call it strike three.

Personally, it seems to me that the strike zone being used on judge goes from his ankles to his shoulders and six inches outside of home plate. And worse, every pitcher has figured out that the umps will call it a strike if it's low and outside the strike zone. Seems to be the favorite target for pitchers all the sudden.

I think that has a lot to do with his hitting lately. Early in the season, they were making pitchers throw real strikes and now (maybe because of his size), the umps have a different strike zone to use against him.
This  
DanMetroMan : 8/15/2017 9:22 am : link
article agrees with you. Caveat being this is from June when he was going nuts despite the strike zone. Doesn't really speak to any change since then that has impacted him.
Link - ( New Window )
It's weird...  
Dunedin81 : 8/15/2017 9:22 am : link
he would occasionally get punched out on a shin-high pitch, probably because with anyone else in the box it's above the knees. But since the ASB it's been more pronounced, and there's no obvious reason why. He is struggling in his own right, absolutely, but the umpiring is not helping. I'd love to see Joe go to bat for him and get tossed, since he's not going to so much as look back at the ump.
He's going to have to deal with it and adjust  
UConn4523 : 8/15/2017 9:25 am : link
he's the hardest hitter to officiate in the league and it's going to take some time for it all to even out.
I feel like his problems are more than 50% mechanics  
Heisenberg : 8/15/2017 9:27 am : link
and the rest that the league has changed how they are pitching to him, to your point. That opposite field HR swing last night was the most balanced he's looked to me in weeks. It really looked to me like he was trying to lift the ball since the ASB. And yeah, the league is going low and outside on him a lot. I think he can make the adjustment, but the umpiring issue may remain for a long time.
Judge doesn't help his own cause  
Beer Man : 8/15/2017 9:28 am : link
When he chases after those pitches away and in the dirt. I think swinging for the fence in the HR derby messed up his mechanics a bit. He needs to get back to that simplified swing he was using before the All-star break. As we saw last night, with his power he doesn't have to swing for the fence for the ball to leave the park.
I blame Girardi  
averagejoe : 8/15/2017 9:28 am : link
Of course pitchers are throwing low fastballs. They watch the tapes too. Keep it down and hope the ump gives them the low strike has been working. Girardi should know what is going on and should publically challenge the umps to get the calls right. Judge's strike zone is big enough but umps have extended it further.

Girardi should be fighting this battle. Judge is a good kid and won't complain.
RE: I blame Girardi  
bluesince56 : 8/15/2017 9:36 am : link
In comment 13560753 averagejoe said:
Quote:
Of course pitchers are throwing low fastballs. They watch the tapes too. Keep it down and hope the ump gives them the low strike has been working. Girardi should know what is going on and should publically challenge the umps to get the calls right. Judge's strike zone is big enough but umps have extended it further.

Girardi should be fighting this battle. Judge is a good kid and won't complain.



I agree. Joe needs to challenge these umpires. It's part of his job. Billy Martin or Earl Weaver would have been all over those bad calls
RE: Judge doesn't help his own cause  
mavric : 8/15/2017 9:48 am : link
In comment 13560752 Beer Man said:
Quote:
When he chases after those pitches away and in the dirt. I think swinging for the fence in the HR derby messed up his mechanics a bit. He needs to get back to that simplified swing he was using before the All-star break. As we saw last night, with his power he doesn't have to swing for the fence for the ball to leave the park.


I agree that he chases those low and away balls. But I also believe he's figured out that the umps are going to call it a strike anyway so he can stand there with the bat on his shoulders and let it get called strike, or take a hack at it.

I agree with the others who think Girardi should get off his ass and go after the umps. So what if he gets tossed a few times. It needs to be corrected because Judge is such a nice guy he'll never argue with the ump.

I think it's going to come to a head at some point and Joe will get off his ass and start a war with umpire association. There are "Umpire Auditors" with film clips that track and rate umpires. I've seen replays with the overhead cameras showing a ball literally 6 inches off the plate being called "strike" against Judge. Those boxes that show where the ball went on television are bullshit because it shows where the ball hit the glove (that is usually pulled in), not where it passed over the plate. It's not a rectangular window, it's a three dimensional rectangular cube. An outside pitch curving in may have "nicked" the corner when viewed as a plate window because of where the catcher caught it (or where it looked like he caught it after pulling it into an advantageous position), but it doesn't tell the whole picture. You need overhead cameras as well as horizontal cameras to see where the ball clearly was. I notice when there is an exceptionally bad call, the televised games rarely show the overhead camera so as not to cause outrage.

Regardless, according to the "Umpire Auditor", umps get it right 88% of the time. With Judge, it's more like 40% of the time. And it's working well for opposing pitchers who love the new strike zone personally adjusted for Judge.

Time for Joe to not just rock the boat, but tip the boat over and bring it to the attention of the league. Because this is flat out bullshit. Pitchers will get their share of strikeouts on Judge even if the umps don't help them out. But that low and outside the strike zone called "strike" needs to be made into an issue!
It is not Joe's job to  
section125 : 8/15/2017 9:49 am : link
challenge the umps. It is Cashman's job to go to the league office with tapes and evidence. If Joe goes crazy animosity with field umpires is created and yo can bet there will be some blowback.
Judge doesn't bitch. Smart.

I agree he is getting a somewhat raw deal on the calls. And he is his own worst enemy chasing obvious balls. Aaron Boone has said the past two nights that his mechanics are off as well as his timing. He believes a correction is coming sooner rather than later. Even the homer run last night he missed. He has missed more hittable pitches than he has gotten bad calls and even then the bad calls come after he had missed a very hittable pitch. The oppo field hits are a good sign. Many time players get out of slumps going with the pitch to the opposite field.
RE: It is not Joe's job to  
averagejoe : 8/15/2017 10:02 am : link
In comment 13560784 section125 said:
Quote:
challenge the umps. It is Cashman's job to go to the league office with tapes and evidence. If Joe goes crazy animosity with field umpires is created and yo can bet there will be some blowback.
Judge doesn't bitch. Smart.

I agree he is getting a somewhat raw deal on the calls. And he is his own worst enemy chasing obvious balls. Aaron Boone has said the past two nights that his mechanics are off as well as his timing. He believes a correction is coming sooner rather than later. Even the homer run last night he missed. He has missed more hittable pitches than he has gotten bad calls and even then the bad calls come after he had missed a very hittable pitch. The oppo field hits are a good sign. Many time players get out of slumps going with the pitch to the opposite field.


Disagree. It is Joe's job to protect his players. Joe needs to go bat shit crazy the next time the ump takes the bat out of Judge's hands. An ESPN highlight film. The umps need to be publically shamed because they are too lazy to adjust their strike zone to this kids size.

Gardner is getting it worse with outside pitches called strikes  
njm : 8/15/2017 10:22 am : link
And he shows his displeasure which just makes the umpires widen the strike zone even more.

And Girardi did get tossed from a game when he started up on an umpire after Gardner got punched out on a ball way outside and the first pitch to Judge right after was a low and away faux strike.
Reversion to the mean  
HomerJones45 : 8/15/2017 10:38 am : link
pitchers are discovering holes in his swing and are throwing accordingly.

If you expected him to keep hitting the way he was hitting, you were dreaming. In AA, he hit .284 and struck out 30% of the time. In his second stint in AAA, he hit .278 and struck out 30% of the time. So far in the majors, he is hitting .289 and striking out 33% of the time, which is to be expected because after all, it is the major leagues. As it is, his babip is .383 which would top any season in the minors. If that comes back to his level in the minors, he will probably end up at .270-.275.

If before the season, you were told Judge would hit .270, 45 HR and drive in 100 RBI's would you have thought the umps were hurting him? No, you would have taken that and run.

It doesn't seem like the umps are hurting him at all. He's just come back to Earth after starting off in the stratosphere.
I don't believe pitchers are pitching him any different than they  
Keith : 8/15/2017 10:40 am : link
did in the first half, I do however believe that his approach has changed. He's gotten pull happy so he's looking for everythign inside to drive. In the first half, he was taking all those outside pitches the other way. He's also chasing pitches off the plate now whereas he wasn't early in the season.
It's just a bad slump,  
Keith : 8/15/2017 10:41 am : link
every hitter goes through it. He's not recognizing pitches right now either.
I agree that Judge is in a bit of a slump  
mavric : 8/15/2017 11:06 am : link
but I think it has a lot to do with the umps adjusting a new strike zone for him and he's starting to hack at bad pitches because he's figured it out that those pitches are going to be called a strike now. A combination of things. He's had so many strikes called with the bat on his shoulder that were not called strikes in the first half of the season. Home plate is 17 inches wide. But for Judge, there's a phantom extra 4 or 5 inches on the outside of the plate called "his strike zone". Also, instead of the ambiguous "knees to belt" vertical strike zone, it's more like "ankles to armpits" for Judge.

I understand that all players have to figure out each umpires' strike zones as it differs from ump to ump. So it hurts and helps both teams somewhat equally. Some umps have a postage sized strike zone and others have a strike zone the size of a smart car. I can't help but notice that when the particular ump of the day has the postage-sized zone, it's a high scoring game. And when it's a very liberal strike zone, we get to see no hitters.

Regardless, I am convinced that the umps have a unique strike zone for Judge. Maybe because of his enormous size and long arms. Or maybe they feel it is their duty to stop a rookie from turning into the next Babe Ruth, but it isn't fair to do that to any hitter.
RE: RE: It is not Joe's job to  
section125 : 8/15/2017 11:44 am : link
In comment 13560812 averagejoe said:
Quote:
In comment 13560784 section125 said:


Quote:


Disagree. It is Joe's job to protect his players. Joe needs to go bat shit crazy the next time the ump takes the bat out of Judge's hands. An ESPN highlight film. The umps need to be publically shamed because they are too lazy to adjust their strike zone to this kids size.


Again, it is not Joe's job to go on the warpath with the field crew each and every time there is a questionable call. Can't argue balls and strikes without being ejected. Is he going to argue the crap Gardner calls too?
Cashman is the one to do it behind the scenes so as to not show up the umps. You don't want bad feeling on the field (umps are people too) going into playoff games. Hopefully the league sends out a notice to the umps saying that there are too many bad strike zone calls on Judge because of his size. Instructions to adjust the low pitch vs Judges height.

Can Joe go out on an individual basis with egregious calls, absolutely. Should he, no.
RE: RE: RE: It is not Joe's job to  
mavric : 8/15/2017 12:50 pm : link
In comment 13561000 section125 said:
Quote:
Again, it is not Joe's job to go on the warpath with the field crew each and every time there is a questionable call. Can't argue balls and strikes without being ejected. Is he going to argue the crap Gardner calls too?
Cashman is the one to do it behind the scenes so as to not show up the umps. You don't want bad feeling on the field (umps are people too) going into playoff games. Hopefully the league sends out a notice to the umps saying that there are too many bad strike zone calls on Judge because of his size. Instructions to adjust the low pitch vs Judges height.

Can Joe go out on an individual basis with egregious calls, absolutely. Should he, no.


Well stated
Girardi has..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/15/2017 12:54 pm : link
been tossed from a couple games this year die to the strike zone.

I don't think umps are screwing Judge intentionally. I think they have a hard time defining his strike zone, so they have ranged from calling shoulder high strikes to ones below the ankles. The first K last night was on a pitch that missed the bottom of the zone by a couple inches. The night before, the ump was giving Sale not just the corner, but giving him sliders curving around the plate.

RE: Girardi has..  
HomerJones45 : 8/15/2017 1:03 pm : link
In comment 13561140 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
been tossed from a couple games this year die to the strike zone.

I don't think umps are screwing Judge intentionally. I think they have a hard time defining his strike zone, so they have ranged from calling shoulder high strikes to ones below the ankles. The first K last night was on a pitch that missed the bottom of the zone by a couple inches. The night before, the ump was giving Sale not just the corner, but giving him sliders curving around the plate.
Having the joy to live in New England, I see Sale almost once a week and he gets that pitch off everyone. There's a reason he may approach 300 K's.
RE: I agree that Judge is in a bit of a slump  
Beer Man : 8/15/2017 1:16 pm : link
In comment 13560924 mavric said:
Quote:
Regardless, I am convinced that the umps have a unique strike zone for Judge. Maybe because of his enormous size and long arms. Or maybe they feel it is their duty to stop a rookie from turning into the next Babe Ruth, but it isn't fair to do that to any hitter.
Most likely the first and not the later. I can’t imagine the Refs trying to make it harder on Judge just to protect a legends legacy. First, the Babe’s legacy is forever etched in stone. And second, it benefits MLB to have young rising stars like Judge (particularly those who appear to be squeaky clean all Americans).
First, I am in the minority here, and I recognize that  
Matt M. : 8/15/2017 2:34 pm : link
I have stated this in various threads over the last few weeks. I think the complaints about the umpiring re: Judge is much exaggerated. For example, that called third strike in the first inning last night, I thought, was right at the knees. His pants are just below the knees and the ball crossed the plate over the pants line. It was also on the black. I felt most of the pitches he's been called out on lately have been at about the same height, right above the pants line. Some, however, have been outside and by more than a couple of inches.

The interesting part is that I saw an article the other day that showed images of called strikes against him and they seemed to have the opposite of what we are all seeing. It displayed a large cluster of low strikes called against him in the first half and a larger cluster of strikes above the strike zone called in the second half.

Regardless, he needs to adjust. I'm hoping last night's dinger is the start. Not only was it opposite field, but he looked balanced and had his weight back on the AB. It was one of the best ABs he's had in weeks. I also think he needs to complain every now and then. Last night he barely gave a look back. He also hesitantly started his walk to 1B, so I'm not sure he was convinced it wasn't a strike anyway.
he should do away  
PaulBlakeTSU : 8/15/2017 2:41 pm : link
with the high socks, or at least hike up his pant legs to above his knee when he steps into the box.

A few years ago, I read an article (I think on Fangraphs) suggesting that players who wear high socks get called for low strikes more often. I can't remember if it was a theory or something that was truly investigated.

The argument goes something like this: when the umpire is back there calling strikes, the place where the pant leg meets the high sock creates an impression of where the batter's knee is for the purpose of calling a strike zone, even though that line of demarcation is lower than the batter's actual knee.

Judge is big enough as it is. I remember thinking about this whenever A-Rod would come up and get punched on a low strike.
RE: he should do away  
Matt M. : 8/15/2017 2:47 pm : link
In comment 13561305 PaulBlakeTSU said:
Quote:
with the high socks, or at least hike up his pant legs to above his knee when he steps into the box.

A few years ago, I read an article (I think on Fangraphs) suggesting that players who wear high socks get called for low strikes more often. I can't remember if it was a theory or something that was truly investigated.

The argument goes something like this: when the umpire is back there calling strikes, the place where the pant leg meets the high sock creates an impression of where the batter's knee is for the purpose of calling a strike zone, even though that line of demarcation is lower than the batter's actual knee.

Judge is big enough as it is. I remember thinking about this whenever A-Rod would come up and get punched on a low strike.
That's interesting and worth examination. But, where Judge wears the pants, the ball would have to be completely below the pants line to be a ball. A ball at the pants line is likely hitting his knee cap.
Interesting theory (about the high socks)  
mavric : 8/15/2017 3:29 pm : link
It could be a distraction to the umps.

To me, when he whiffs on a high fastball or one that is tight, it's his fault. But the pitch that is killing him is low and outside. I've seen some replays where the ball is literally six inches off the plate (as shown by an overhead camera) that is called a strike. It seems any pitch that is low and outside is automatically going to be called a strike even though it never ever crosses the plate or nicks the edge of the plate. So when he takes - it's called a strike. You can see the frustration on his face when he is called out when the pitch is clearly outside and low. So he's been swinging at it knowing they are probably going to call it anyway.

With that in mind, I'm not sure the socks are the problem. What I can't come to grips with is that his size should have no effect on the ability of the umpire to see when a ball is clearly outside the plate. That is what is pissing me off because I've seen it repeatedly since the break. And you can see the obvious frustration on Judge's face as he knows they are calling outside pitches strikes - specifically for him.

I imagine Cash has already notified the umpire association and has probably brought video to prove it. I think at some point, the umps are going to stop calling the out of zone strike a strike. I sure hope so anyway.

Anyway - another interesting statistic. Judge is the 4th fastest hitter in MLB history to hit 40 home runs (took him 140 games). Even more interesting is who beat him....Sanchez who is the 3rd fastest to hit 40 home runs in MLB history (took him 139 games). If both Sanchez and Judge get their bats back on track, they will be a dangerous tandem. Throw in Hicks who I think is quickly becoming a superstar, and Clint Frazier, steady Didi, a hot Castro and (knock on wood) Bird getting his spring training swing back and this team has some serious offensive weapons.
That low strike  
LCtheINTMachine : 8/15/2017 4:19 pm : link
has been a problem for sure. I don't like it.
I understand Judge is a young rookie, but IMO you can't  
Mark C : 8/15/2017 5:30 pm : link
just give him a pass by saying he's too humble to push back on the umps. There are plenty of ways to communicate your unhappiness with their bullshit lazy calls without directly arguing balls and strikes, and if he doesn't learn how to do that, he's not going to achieve what he clearly is capable of in this game. Forget Girardi, maybe it's Judge who needs to get himself thrown out of a game or two.
Back to the Corner