All of the stuff North of the Wall has always been just incredible to look at and to see something done up there on the scale of the series biggest moments. Absolutely incredible!
Since I'm terrible at finding online streams.
can someone post the link for a direct stream which wont require signing up?
google 123movies and you should be able to find it fairly easily. The stream I saw, the audio got a bit out of sync in the second half, almost like old dubbed kung-fu movies, but I didn't even care.
Since I'm terrible at finding online streams.
can someone post the link for a direct stream which wont require signing up?
Danny, if you don't have a jailbroken Amazon firestick and don't want to go online to download the episode, I'd say your best chances to see majority of the episode would be on YouTube. Just search for "Game of Thrones 7x06" and you'll see several scenes already uploaded. Although with this option, most all the feeds won't be HD and you'll have to watch 8-10 different video clips before HBO's lawyers force YouTube to take them down.
Personally, I'd rather download the episode in HD and watch it that way but if you want to avoid that hassle and avoid possible virus to infect your PC, go the YouTube route.
Dammit, I can't say this enough, DO NOT READ if you haven't scene the episode yet.
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How F'n cool was it for the Night King to bring Viserion back to life and create an Ice Dragon!!!
Dammit, I can't say this enough, DO NOT READ if you haven't scene the episode yet.
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How F'n cool was it for the Night King to bring Viserion back to life and create an Ice Dragon!!!
Everything with the dragons looked awesome. The best I think they've looked in the entire series. The way Viserion slips into the water or how Ice King's ice bolt explodes and Viserion's ribs are exposed, on fire and blood pouring out of him. And the freaking Polar Bear! That shit looked awesome!
Loved how they saw him in the distance and then one of the A-Team members said "Are Polar Bears eyes normally colored blue?" From that point on you knew that scene was going to kick ass!
I guess I'd forgotten how little she thinks of Sansa, probably b/c whenever I think of Arya/Sansa together I think of the actresses being best friends.
I guess I'd forgotten how little she thinks of Sansa, probably b/c whenever I think of Arya/Sansa together I think of the actresses being best friends.
Littlefinger's plan worked perfectly, it'll almost be too easy for him to now manipulate Sansa. Especially since Arya already threatened to kill her and Sansa is scared of her.
If I'm Sansa, I'd want to distance myself from all her siblings. She never was close to Jon and want the North to herself. Bran freaks her out and has seen everything that Ramsey Bolton did to her. Then you have Arya whose a trained assassin now and just threatened your life. That warm family reunion hasn't worked out all too well for her.
To me the Arya / Sansa stuff they have been telegraphing Â
for a very long time. All the way back to season 1.
One is an extreme version of her father and the other is an extreme version of her mother now. Then add in all of their exposure to the experiences over the years and the things they learned and from who, this beef was inevitable.
Initially it looked like Sansa was extremely happy to see her siblings Â
That reunion with Jon was an really cool scene. She was so happy to see Bran alive until she saw that he's now emotionless as the Three Eyed Raven. I also think she was happy to see Arya back initially until she found out her sister was a Faceless assassin.
I like Sansa's procession over the years and really liked her development.
On the other hand, while I think Arya kicks ass but she is emotionally stunted and still acts like a little kid. Which is why I think Littlefinger will be able to get an upper hand on her and be able to manipulate both sisters against each other.
I thought Dany and Jon where going to fuck at the end.
Same here, Jon wants to. I thought Dany was going to jump Jon the second he called her his "Queen". She definitly got teary eyed and even thought about it. Dany tried to pull away her hand at first but Jon wouldn't let her go. Then Dany told him to rest up and get some sleep before she finally pulled her hand away. Great scene!
I thought Dany and Jon where going to fuck at the end.
It's getting a bit creepy, but I think Dany saw something she needed to see from Jon. She's always been a powerful character and has never really needed to be in a position of sacrifice. Seeing Jon's willingness to sacrifice himself, then seeing the scar above his heart, seemed to humbled her. Her asking Jon if she deserves the position of Queen seems like a good step for her going forward.
I thought Dany and Jon where going to fuck at the end.
It's getting a bit creepy, but I think Dany saw something she needed to see from Jon. She's always been a powerful character and has never really needed to be in a position of sacrifice. Seeing Jon's willingness to sacrifice himself, then seeing the scar above his heart, seemed to humbled her. Her asking Jon if she deserves the position of Queen seems like a good step for her going forward.
I'm beyond the creepy part, it's not brother\sister relationship like Jaime and Cersei. Plus for hundred of years Targaryen's have been marrying off siblings or pure 100% Targaryen first cousins.
Jon being half Stark, in this fantasy world, doesn't seem as creepy with Dany being his aunt. Plus Dany already told Jon that she can't have any more children, I think the writers purposely put that line in to setup the audience for their future relationship.
Although if Dany can't have any children, it would be interesting to know how they'd handle the progression of the crown if\when Dany become Queen and then dies years later without a natural heir to inherit the crown and kingdom.
They made it quickly from Eastwatch to Dragonstone...
If you look at maps of Westeros, Dragonstone is about halfway mark between the Wall and Dorne. So those ravens had to fly pretty quickly to cover almost half the continent.
Will break Dany being barren. Only death can pay for life is a big thing in this story. Hell, Drogo's death paid for the dragons in the first place. If Jon and Dany fuck any time soon I would bet good money on her getting pregnant. Viserion's death will pay for a new Targaryen/Stark heir.
in the end I believe he will sacrifice his life to save his newfound Queen at some point in the story after she becomes pregnant with their child - how's that for a succession plan Tyrion?
TAKE THAT TO THE BANK - Jon and Dany's child will rule the 7 kingdoms and break the wheel of tyrants and mass murder. Everything else in this story is now secondary.
don't think it was as good as last season's finale but definitely up their with BOTB, Hardhome, et al.
1 minor criticism - the winterfell stuff is annoying. Bran conveniently missing in action again as his sisters continue to turn on each other and now also a major strategic decision comes up? He had time to tell Jon to go to east watch, but not enough time to tell his sisters Littlefinger is up to the same tricks that basically butchered half their family? Given that we already know Bran is onto Littlefinger I expect it's just misdirection leading up to the finale, but if it's not it's pretty weak.
I posted two good links on the non spoiler thread and also posted instructions on how to watch it on your HDTV. Whole process to get it on my HDTV took only 10-15 minutes.
Although I wonder does a zombie dragon shoot fire or ice?
Very good question, will the zombie dragon breath fire or ice. If they follow Martin's other non-GoT books, Ice Dragons breath ice and magical get their size increased to almost double the size of a firebreathing dragon.
Sansa is fucking stupid for sending Brienne to King's Landing Â
I highly doubt there is anybody in Winterfell that Arya can't take out if shit were to pop off.
Sansa done fucked up, makes me wonder if she is planning something and needed to Brienne out of the way since Brienne is sworn to protect both Stark girls.
Is the showrunners have said GRRM told them 3 "Holy shit" moments he has planned for the books. The first two were the burning of Shireen and Hodor. But as crazy as this is, it can't be the third and final moment. Because they have stated that third and final holy shit moment is at the very end. I am actually beginning to believe in the Bran = Night King theory and the revelation of that is this third promised moment. I never bought into that theory before but it is not starting to shape up and make a lot of sense.
All those warnings about how if you stay too long you'll never get out are foreshadowing this. The theory is Bran goes back to the time he saw the Night King being made and skinchanges the person (we've already seen he has the ability to do this with Hodor) in an attempt to tell the Children of the Forest not to do it. They don't listen. Put the knife in his heart, and Bran's mind becomes stuck in this body.
It actually winds up explaining a lot of things. Explains why the Night King was able to enter Bran's vision and physically interact with him, explains why the Night King is so pissed at the Children of the Forest and wants to kill them, explains why he seems to recognize Jon Snow, explains the line "you will fly" as he now has a dragon, and there's been a theory for a long time that all those Wights are is super warged beings being warged by the Night King all at once. They just gave a hint in episode 5 Bran has this ability as he warged all those ravens simultaneously.
Something about his ability to see through time and him attempting to warg into the man(old Stark ancestor/first men I believe) who eventually becomes the Night King (created by the Children of the Forest) to prevent the creation and becoming trapped when the dude turns. If that is what ends up happening, I'm guessing Bran will stay permanently "warged", kinda like Hodor stayed permanently holding the door.
RE: RE: RE: But it looks like The Hound will be delivering Â
She doesn't know the Hound is coming. As far as I can tell King's Landing hasn't been informed of the plan to bring a weight to them.
Cersei knows the plan, Jaime and Tyrion came to a proposed truce for both their queen's. Jaime even told Cersei in episode S7E5 that "Tyrion said he will bring proof" of the zombies.
My guess is the Hound will make the delivery, show them the proof but still get arrested. Remember he abandoned his post with the Lannister's but the Hound will demand a Trial by Combat to determine his fate. Cersei's champion should be the zombie Mountain and we should finally get the Clegane Bowl that's been long rumored.
Plus when I mention zombie Mountain, I'm guessing that the Mountain is half dead\half alive, similar to the way Uncle Benjen was.
We talked about it in the other GoT thread but here are the highlights about want we discussed there...
* There's an interesting theory that leads to Bran being the Night King. So the theory states he goes back to the moment the night king was created, wargs into the man.... tries to explain what will happen and why they shouldn't do this... they call bull shit and do it anyways leaving bran as the night king.
* That would also make a lot of sense. It's seems like the Night King has always been one step ahead of Bran in their visions. So this theory would help prove that since the Night King would always know what to expect since he first lived those experiences as Bran and always know a counter for all of Bran's moves.
* Plus also explain how in episode 6x05 Meera was able to drag Bran away without getting caught by all the Night Kings wrights. I know that Hodor and Uncle Benjen helped but if this theory is correct, the Night King would want Meera to get away and help Bran cross the Wall or he'd never exist.
* Not to even mention why the Night King has always looked at Jon with a special interest. If it is Bran, then of course he'd look with interest with what Jon is doing since it is his brother/cousin.
* The fact Old Nan told him the Night's King name is Brandon Stark can't be merely coincidental. Or could it?
* Plus the old Three Eyed Raven mentioned to Bran that he'd wouldn't walk again (In Bran's old crippled body) but that he would fly. Most thought this meant warging into birds or one of the dragons. Although now that the Night King has his very own dragon, if Bran is the Night King, he will be able to fly now.
RE: RE: But it looks like The Hound will be delivering Â
She doesn't know the Hound is coming. As far as I can tell King's Landing hasn't been informed of the plan to bring a weight to them.
Cersei knows the plan, Jaime and Tyrion came to a proposed truce for both their queen's. Jaime even told Cersei in episode S7E5 that "Tyrion said he will bring proof" of the zombies.
My guess is the Hound will make the delivery, show them the proof but still get arrested. Remember he abandoned his post with the Lannister's but the Hound will demand a Trial by Combat to determine his fate. Cersei's champion should be the zombie Mountain and we should finally get the Clegane Bowl that's been long rumored.
Plus when I mention zombie Mountain, I'm guessing that the Mountain is half dead\half alive, similar to the way Uncle Benjen was.
I think Benjen's deal is different. Injured & infected with whatever magic that makes the White Walkers go. Wasn't he basically confined to the North of The Wall? Couldn't return if he wanted?
If you re-watch all the scenes with both him and Bran, it always seemed like he was holding something back from Bran. Almost like he was scared of Bran's abilities or what he might yet become.
I think he knew how powerful Bran's abilities are and knew what would eventually happen. I'm guessing he was always so eager to find Bran to help train him for a longer period of time to prevent him from being the Night King. Then Bran didn't listen to him and got marked by the Night King and cut down the time the old Three Eyed Raven had to train Bran.
If this theory is true, knowing he'd die soon, I don't think it was an accident that in their last vision together, the Three Eyed Raven took Bran back in time to Winterfell and showed Bran a cruel example of what would happen if he left his powers unchecked and warged into a person, while using greensight. The way Bran neutered Hodor in that way, I'm sure the Three Eyed Raven was hoping that example would prevent Bran from doing it again. Which would prevent him from eventually becoming the Night King.
Again, I don't think it was an accident that the Three Eyed Raven choose to show Bran that right before he died.
RE: RE: RE: But it looks like The Hound will be delivering Â
I think Benjen's deal is different. Injured & infected with whatever magic that makes the White Walkers go. Wasn't he basically confined to the North of The Wall? Couldn't return if he wanted?
The Mountain is some straight Frankenstein shit.
I don't think they're that far apart. Qyburn was always interested in learning about topics that got him kicked out of the Citadel with human experiments. We know the maesters at the Citadel weren't fond of magic and maybe Qyburn found some old manuscripts that showed how to do magic to re-animated the dead (Similar to the magic that the Children did to re-animate Benjen after he died, so that he'd fight for the side of the living).
We talked about it in the other GoT thread but here are the highlights about want we discussed there...
* There's an interesting theory that leads to Bran being the Night King. So the theory states he goes back to the moment the night king was created, wargs into the man.... tries to explain what will happen and why they shouldn't do this... they call bull shit and do it anyways leaving bran as the night king.
* That would also make a lot of sense. It's seems like the Night King has always been one step ahead of Bran in their visions. So this theory would help prove that since the Night King would always know what to expect since he first lived those experiences as Bran and always know a counter for all of Bran's moves.
* Plus also explain how in episode 6x05 Meera was able to drag Bran away without getting caught by all the Night Kings wrights. I know that Hodor and Uncle Benjen helped but if this theory is correct, the Night King would want Meera to get away and help Bran cross the Wall or he'd never exist.
* Not to even mention why the Night King has always looked at Jon with a special interest. If it is Bran, then of course he'd look with interest with what Jon is doing since it is his brother/cousin.
* The fact Old Nan told him the Night's King name is Brandon Stark can't be merely coincidental. Or could it?
* Plus the old Three Eyed Raven mentioned to Bran that he'd wouldn't walk again (In Bran's old crippled body) but that he would fly. Most thought this meant warging into birds or one of the dragons. Although now that the Night King has his very own dragon, if Bran is the Night King, he will be able to fly now.
This doesn't make sense to me. Bran seems like a good dude. His conscience gets trapped inside of the Night King and he just immediately decides "f*** it, now that I'm the Night King I'm killing all the humans?" The animosity towards the Children makes sense, but not the humans.
Current day Bran seems like a good dude, although a lot more cold and distant from the rest of humanity (his sisters and Meera) since becoming the Night King.
Then factor in, if the theory is true, that the Night King has been around since the First Men for thousands of years and has constantly been at war with the humans.
You don't think a good dude like Bran can go crazy over thousands of years battling the humans non-stop?
Current day Bran seems like a good dude, although a lot more cold and distant from the rest of humanity (his sisters and Meera) since becoming the Night King.
Meant to say since becoming the new Three Eyed Raven.
Current day Bran seems like a good dude, although a lot more cold and distant from the rest of humanity (his sisters and Meera) since becoming the Night King.
Then factor in, if the theory is true, that the Night King has been around since the First Men for thousands of years and has constantly been at war with the humans.
You don't think a good dude like Bran can go crazy over thousands of years battling the humans non-stop?
When Bran first wargs into the Night King, he has no experience being Night King. If he still had any consciousness at that point he could refuse to kill humans. If he had 0 consciousness then I don't find any of this all that interesting, I guess; just one big repeatable loop over and over. (Which is really the problem in any time-travel show; I hope Martin figured out something smarter than that.)
I posted two good links on the non spoiler thread and also posted instructions on how to watch it on your HDTV. Whole process to get it on my HDTV took only 10-15 minutes.
Will Sansa plot with Littlefinger to make a move against Arya in episode 7?
Has to be. Littlefinger is playing them. If she's worried about Arya doing something to her, she'd want Brienne there, but if she's thinking about doing something to Arya, she'd want Brienne out of the way.
Maybe Bran can intervene, but he doesn't really seem to emotionally invested these day.
As a work of cinematic excellence, this episode was right up there with the best.
The strength of the show, story-wise, is still south of the wall, where there are sympathetic characters on both sides of the war. That could change, though, when we get the full story of the Night's King and he's more than just a scary dude with a zombie army and an ice dragon.
Was it just me or did that episode suck and make no sense?
1. They're walking for miles, then Gendry makes it to the wall in 25 minutes?
2. "No Time" for Benjen to also hop on a horse?
3. Arya and Sansa thing. Everyone knew immediately in season 1 (or 2?) that the Queen was forcing her to write that. Also, why did she send Brienne away? And why is she trusting Littlefinger?
4. Why did the Night King aim for the flying dragon instead of Drogon who wasjust sitting there?
5. Jon screams "fall back." Fall back to what? They're on an island. And, if they could 'fall back' why didn't they do that right away?
The point, form Arya's PoV, isn't whether or not Sansa was compelled to write the letter Robb. Her gripe is that Sansa caved so easily. Arya thinks Sansa is weak, and she also questions Sansa's motives for collaborating with Cersei - which feeds her suspicions about Sansa's loyalty to Jon.
Personally, I think either Littlefinger is being set up by one or both of the Stark girls, or his plan will be foiled another way - possibly by Bran. Arya might be testing Sansa, but I don't believe Arya will fall completely for Baelish's scheme.
it's sloppy as shit. Loved the cinematography, it was gorgeous, but I thought we were going to be getting somthing epic. The liberties taken with travel are beyond frustrating to watch. My friend texted me earlier that Davos "basically texted Dany". With time sped up like this it becomes very predictable.
Was it just me or did that episode suck and make no sense?
1. They're walking for miles, then Gendry makes it to the wall in 25 minutes?
2. "No Time" for Benjen to also hop on a horse?
3. Arya and Sansa thing. Everyone knew immediately in season 1 (or 2?) that the Queen was forcing her to write that. Also, why did she send Brienne away? And why is she trusting Littlefinger?
4. Why did the Night King aim for the flying dragon instead of Drogon who wasjust sitting there?
5. Jon screams "fall back." Fall back to what? They're on an island. And, if they could 'fall back' why didn't they do that right away?
6. Where'd the second dragon go?
It's just you.
1.) More time passed than 25 minutes. At least a day.
2.) It would have slowed them down. Benjen also wanted to die, he was half zombie living in a horrid state. His only mission was to take down more zombies.
3.) She sent Brianne because she does not trust Cersei enough to be around her (smart). She knows Littlefinger is after her and the throne so she can use that to her advantage.
4.) The flying dragon was circling around and coming toward him at the time he threw the arrow.
5.) The island had a little hill that went about 20 feet up. He was telling them to fall back to the top of the ridge of it to get a better advantage as a "last resort".
6.) The second dragon was shown multiple times. He was flying in the air when Viserys got shot down and he howled when it happened. He was shown flying over the wall at the end.
I feel like when fans like us are starting to make up theories like what you just suggested to explain what's going on between characters, it indicates terrible writing. It means that what we're seeing is so far away from what we'd expect given our current understanding of them, then something else must be going on.
This reminds me of when arya got stabbed. Everyone was saying back then there must be some plan, or it wasn't really her, or this, or that... And it turned out she just got stabbed and then healed.
Benjen isn't exactly Benjen any more. As he hinted when he rescued Bran and Meera last season, he's now an instrument of the three-eyed raven, suspended between two worlds. It's not even clear that the Army of the Dead can kill him. This might not make sense, but it does sort of explain why he doesn't try to escape.
Was it just me or did that episode suck and make no sense?
1. They're walking for miles, then Gendry makes it to the wall in 25 minutes?
2. "No Time" for Benjen to also hop on a horse?
3. Arya and Sansa thing. Everyone knew immediately in season 1 (or 2?) that the Queen was forcing her to write that. Also, why did she send Brienne away? And why is she trusting Littlefinger?
4. Why did the Night King aim for the flying dragon instead of Drogon who wasjust sitting there?
5. Jon screams "fall back." Fall back to what? They're on an island. And, if they could 'fall back' why didn't they do that right away?
6. Where'd the second dragon go?
1. The amount of time that elapses is always difficult to tell on this show - best not to think too hard about it.
2. Benjen has been half dead and roaming behind the wall for some time now. I think he felt it was finally his time to go.
3. As Arya explained, she felt that even though she was forced to write the letter it was still a betrayal of their father. And it adds to her suspicion that all Sansa ever cared about is being queen, even in spite of her family.
Brienne was sent away because Sansa doesn't trust that Cersei won't try to kill her if she goes. Also possibly to have no one preclude her from harming Arya if she decides that is necessary.
Sansa probably doesn't fully trust little finger, but at this point without Jon there, and Bran being a dick, she has no one else to confide in for important matters.
4. Either to show off, or because the dragon in the air would be in better position to retaliate if he instead killed the Dragon on the ground.
5. The lake became more frozen than it was previously allowing them to walk and run on it. Although they did seem surrounded, so not sure where they had space to go.
6. It did seem like one disappeared. But it became irrelevant after the night king took one down - Dany wasn't gonna have her dragons stick around any longer.
is basically e-mail at this point. It's a bit silly how fast and reliable it is considering they're literally sending birds with messages. But I'm just gonna go with it. The rest is good enough to make up for these shortcuts they have to take.
But, the whole plot from last episode was so dumb (bringing back a white walker? really?) and its bleeding into this episode.
It was dumb - really from the beginning it's been a challenge for the writers to include the wight walkers into the show in a way that makes sense. But the last two episodes did serve the purpose of making clear what the stakes are and forging important relationships that will be key later on.
rewatching tonight still don't see how Littlefinger's ploy works Â
Arya and Sansa are circling each other, but neither has laid their cards on the table yet. Littlefinger wasn't going to go down without a fight. Sansa has done well running things, she knows not to trust him, and she correctly observed how disloyal the other Northern houses are. Next week's episode can go in a lot of directions but I think Littlefinger ends up on the wrong end of that dagger, probably after a dramatic reveal of his past shadiness.
to turn one of the dragons into an ice dragon...that was foreshadowed enough, it was inevitable. I managed to mostly avoid leaks and spoilers before tonight, but that was telegraphed
And while it was a little convenient to have a few nondescript wildlings get sacrificed against the army of the dead, i liked the magnificent seven so much I'm glad only Thoros bought it
Was surprised at first the Hound didn't stay with Beric, but of course his destiny is likely still to face his brother. About time he returned to the south part of the story
Cool to see Benjen/Coldhands make one final appearance, but I was also hoping Jon would end up riding the second dragon to safety...will have to wait to see if that happens
And when oh when will Bran get the chance to throw a little family weirdness into the Jon and Daenerys love story
At this point I've stopped getting worked up about the points of weak writing or time travel - it was always going to be hard to write this story to a satisfying conclusion, they're setting it all up as well as they can
Ill never understand the complaints on time traveling Â
They've confirmed many times that MANY years have passed since the show started, arguably a decade since episode 1. Time IS passing. We have 7 damn episodes left. Do we want to spend those 7 episodes watching birds fly with messages for 30 minutes or Gendry riding back on a horse for a whole episode? What's the alternative??
And many who have not, don't realize the author's original plan for those books was to have a 5 year gap between the events of book 3 and 4. He abandoned that idea (and I actually think this the cause of his problems, but that's another story), but I view the show, the adaptation, as what it would have been like had that 5 year gap happened. And the traveling, time period, ages of people fit much better then and are not as head scratching. And this is the case in the show as the HBO episode guides confirm years have passed since the first episode.
And many who have not, don't realize the author's original plan for those books was to have a 5 year gap between the events of book 3 and 4. He abandoned that idea (and I actually think this the cause of his problems, but that's another story), but I view the show, the adaptation, as what it would have been like had that 5 year gap happened. And the traveling, time period, ages of people fit much better then and are not as head scratching. And this is the case in the show as the HBO episode guides confirm years have passed since the first episode.
Yeah. Sam actually confirmed it had been "years" since Season 4 a couple episodes back.
But IGN (who's reviews I typically agree with) didn't give this week's episode a favorable score at all, citing major pacing issues as well 6.9. Link - ( New Window )
RE: Ill never understand the complaints on time traveling Â
They've confirmed many times that MANY years have passed since the show started, arguably a decade since episode 1. Time IS passing. We have 7 damn episodes left. Do we want to spend those 7 episodes watching birds fly with messages for 30 minutes or Gendry riding back on a horse for a whole episode? What's the alternative??
Had this conversation with a friend - I think some peoples angst comes bc in earlier seasons, planned travel took longer and a lot of events happened along the way that changed the story - like Catelyn running into Tyrion and having him taken prisoner. Or, Arya and the Hound, or Jamie and Brienne traveling together for several episodes. Or we had plot lines like Robb taking half a season to fall in love while his army was camped.
To your point, now that the show is nearing its conclusion, the writers obviously have to deliver on the major events, like those we've seen this season. They can't include 3-4 episodes of character development anymore. And I've seen and read enough interviews with the writers and producers to appreciate the scope and scale of the production - almost every episode is a short feature film now in terms of production size.
The writers are including things to show time passing - like Gilly's little boy being clearly older last episode, or showing night time and then daylight to show a day had passed while Gendry traveled.
It makes a lot of sense to move things slower in the beginning. You need time to develop the characters and make people feel for them. They did that though. We have 7 episodes left. We dont need to see these guys rowing in a boat for 5 episodes. We already care about them. The stakes are already high in every battle. I watched this episode thinking I really did not want any of the 7 to die. I was on the edge of my seat thinking a couple of them were going to bite it. That's a testament to all the work they did leading us here. To me, it makes sense.
And no, its not perfect. There will always be nitpicky things but the sum is so much greater than the parts they can easily be overlooked IMO.
I mean this reviewer is seriously questioning where the white walkers got those chains from? Seriously? Who gives a fuck?
this big master ploy. He has very little options or friends left. He loves Sansa and has always wanted the throne but his best move is really to do nothing at this point. All the Starks together in one spot hurts his chances so he is trying to create a little feud and fan flames. I don't think its supposed to come off brilliant or anything.
Was it just me or did that episode suck and make no sense?
1. They're walking for miles, then Gendry makes it to the wall in 25 minutes?
2. "No Time" for Benjen to also hop on a horse?
3. Arya and Sansa thing. Everyone knew immediately in season 1 (or 2?) that the Queen was forcing her to write that. Also, why did she send Brienne away? And why is she trusting Littlefinger?
4. Why did the Night King aim for the flying dragon instead of Drogon who wasjust sitting there?
5. Jon screams "fall back." Fall back to what? They're on an island. And, if they could 'fall back' why didn't they do that right away?
6. Where'd the second dragon go?
Amen. Lots to love but these really bugged me.
Gendry's quick trip to Eastwatch wasn't that bad. Â
There were several cues to the passage of time. Besides, he went straight south. On the way north, it would make sense for the crew to have taken a more winding route, looking for wights without getting farther into enemy territory than necessary.
How a smith from King's Landing navigated in the snowy tundra is another matter. But hey, it's a show about dragons.
They've confirmed many times that MANY years have passed since the show started, arguably a decade since episode 1. Time IS passing. We have 7 damn episodes left. Do we want to spend those 7 episodes watching birds fly with messages for 30 minutes or Gendry riding back on a horse for a whole episode? What's the alternative??
You're confusing time passing off screen and the concept of making it reasonable with what you show on screen.
In this case there is no reasonable way to account for time elapsed and the distance traveled. They spent roughly a day traveling beyond the wall. From the time the gang gets surrounded by the undead at the end of their day and when they wake up the next morning, we are asked to believe that
1. Gendry ran all the way back to where they started.
2. A raven flew the entire length of the continent
3. Dany flew the length of the continent with her dragons
You can make that somewhat believable by stretching the timeline a few days. Have the gang on the run, hiding, etc. It would not have been hard to write something like that and arrive at the same result.
has never been an issue, I think most assumed there's been a ton of time that the story has spanned since season 1. Sam confirming it wasn't really noteworthy, unless people actually thought it's only been a few months which wouldn't make any sense anyway.
Speeding up plotlines is fine, when executed well. The Gendry/Raven thing was handled poorly, same as Jamie escaping by swimming like Tully with a full suit of golden armor.
The highlight for me were the panning shots of Jon and Co trekking north. Simply gorgeous. Also liked the exchanges between each character during their march. Thought the Sansa/Arya stuff was interesting, but I doubt it will amount to a falling out and betrayal.
A dragon dying had to happen. There's only so many times they can show Dany showing up with 3 dragons to save the day. There needs to be some realistic adversity and now that will happen.
Yeah, for me it was the weakest episode in a long while Â
I think that they are really just writing a tv show now and not GoT.
The time thing defies any explanation even beyond mere television. And to be honest, it just makes the show look stupid. Gendry has to run to eastwatch, the ravens have to get to Dragonstone, Danys has to bicker with Tyrion and fly North of the Wall all while the wights hang out on the periphery of a pond and 7 guys sit on a hill just waiting. Besides the fact that they all would have died of exposure, it makes me wonder why Danys just didn't do commando raids from Slavers Bay into Kings Landing. War...and books...over...in fifteen minutes.
These dead getting killed by swords mystifies me. The took a sword as a person, died, got reanimated and a stab kills them again. And, apparently they drown too. Didn't they ever watch Pirates? Walk under the lake onto the hill where Jon was.
They repeated the Jamie in the river trick in back to back episodes. And, it didn't get any more believable with Jon. I'll bet Leo wishes he had Jon's resistance to ice cold water; he'd be hanging out with Kate Winslet today.
I'm sorry, but the Bejen part was the worst part for me. The utter stupid convenience of it all.
A close second was Arya just leaving faces hanging around. Heck, Littlefinger did a better job of hiding the note and he *wanted* Arya to find it.
I'm a little surprised that Bran had more face time when he was learning to be a tree than when hanging out with family. I know that he's not Bran any more but you would think they would want to say hi to him, have breakfast and stuff together. If he does intend to tell people what's going on, you would think he would put himself in a position to actually do it.
"poster" or one actually pretty similar I posted in April and was mocked by many of you for posting a "fan boy" poster not an official poster is more real than many of you (or I) knew.
RE: Yeah, for me it was the weakest episode in a long while Â
I think that they are really just writing a tv show now and not GoT.
The time thing defies any explanation even beyond mere television. And to be honest, it just makes the show look stupid. Gendry has to run to eastwatch, the ravens have to get to Dragonstone, Danys has to bicker with Tyrion and fly North of the Wall all while the wights hang out on the periphery of a pond and 7 guys sit on a hill just waiting. Besides the fact that they all would have died of exposure, it makes me wonder why Danys just didn't do commando raids from Slavers Bay into Kings Landing. War...and books...over...in fifteen minutes.
These dead getting killed by swords mystifies me. The took a sword as a person, died, got reanimated and a stab kills them again. And, apparently they drown too. Didn't they ever watch Pirates? Walk under the lake onto the hill where Jon was.
They repeated the Jamie in the river trick in back to back episodes. And, it didn't get any more believable with Jon. I'll bet Leo wishes he had Jon's resistance to ice cold water; he'd be hanging out with Kate Winslet today.
I'm sorry, but the Bejen part was the worst part for me. The utter stupid convenience of it all.
A close second was Arya just leaving faces hanging around. Heck, Littlefinger did a better job of hiding the note and he *wanted* Arya to find it.
I'm a little surprised that Bran had more face time when he was learning to be a tree than when hanging out with family. I know that he's not Bran any more but you would think they would want to say hi to him, have breakfast and stuff together. If he does intend to tell people what's going on, you would think he would put himself in a position to actually do it.
FYI - The White Walkers arent being killed by just any sword - Longclaw is made of Valyrian Steel (which is said to be forged by Dragon fire). Regular swords don't have the same effect.
the Raven/Dany's arrival being the biggest. So Jon and his crew are surrounded by the Night's King army, then Gendry runs back to Eastwatch, then they have a Maester send a raven, then Dany gets the raven, then she decides to go save them and they're still on that rock. I get it's a fiction/fantasy story, but I just feel like the book will do that plot much more justice if it's even remotely similar in the book.
No food, freezing cold, and they're still hanging in when dany arrives.
And I didn't realize Arya actually had to already have the faces in her possession before she can assume that person's identity, no clue why i thought it was a warg type thing. It would have been cool if they showed a new face of someone she hadn't used yet. Unless she has more faces like Tommen or Joffrey or her father or mother, I don't see her heading back to Braavos to pick up a new face.
"poster" or one actually pretty similar I posted in April and was mocked by many of you for posting a "fan boy" poster not an official poster is more real than many of you (or I) knew.
I found the thread you posted with this image: http://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=543747 no one was mocking you here at least. Regardless, it wasn't an official poster for the season and was clearly fan made. HBO wouldn't put that big of a spoiler in a promotional image for the season.
"poster" or one actually pretty similar I posted in April and was mocked by many of you for posting a "fan boy" poster not an official poster is more real than many of you (or I) knew.
I found the thread you posted with this image: http://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=543747 no one was mocking you here at least. Regardless, it wasn't an official poster for the season and was clearly fan made. HBO wouldn't put that big of a spoiler in a promotional image for the season.
Maybe mocked was a bit of an exaggeration, LOL. but it seems like it was spot-on, official or not. Shit has been leaking on this show the past couple seasons (at least).
RE: RE: Yeah, for me it was the weakest episode in a long while Â
I think that they are really just writing a tv show now and not GoT.
The time thing defies any explanation even beyond mere television. And to be honest, it just makes the show look stupid. Gendry has to run to eastwatch, the ravens have to get to Dragonstone, Danys has to bicker with Tyrion and fly North of the Wall all while the wights hang out on the periphery of a pond and 7 guys sit on a hill just waiting. Besides the fact that they all would have died of exposure, it makes me wonder why Danys just didn't do commando raids from Slavers Bay into Kings Landing. War...and books...over...in fifteen minutes.
These dead getting killed by swords mystifies me. The took a sword as a person, died, got reanimated and a stab kills them again. And, apparently they drown too. Didn't they ever watch Pirates? Walk under the lake onto the hill where Jon was.
They repeated the Jamie in the river trick in back to back episodes. And, it didn't get any more believable with Jon. I'll bet Leo wishes he had Jon's resistance to ice cold water; he'd be hanging out with Kate Winslet today.
I'm sorry, but the Bejen part was the worst part for me. The utter stupid convenience of it all.
A close second was Arya just leaving faces hanging around. Heck, Littlefinger did a better job of hiding the note and he *wanted* Arya to find it.
I'm a little surprised that Bran had more face time when he was learning to be a tree than when hanging out with family. I know that he's not Bran any more but you would think they would want to say hi to him, have breakfast and stuff together. If he does intend to tell people what's going on, you would think he would put himself in a position to actually do it.
FYI - The White Walkers arent being killed by just any sword - Longclaw is made of Valyrian Steel (which is said to be forged by Dragon fire). Regular swords don't have the same effect.
Yeah, but the wights were getting re-killed by regular stuff, which was my point.
RE: RE: RE: Yeah, for me it was the weakest episode in a long while Â
I think that they are really just writing a tv show now and not GoT.
The time thing defies any explanation even beyond mere television. And to be honest, it just makes the show look stupid. Gendry has to run to eastwatch, the ravens have to get to Dragonstone, Danys has to bicker with Tyrion and fly North of the Wall all while the wights hang out on the periphery of a pond and 7 guys sit on a hill just waiting. Besides the fact that they all would have died of exposure, it makes me wonder why Danys just didn't do commando raids from Slavers Bay into Kings Landing. War...and books...over...in fifteen minutes.
These dead getting killed by swords mystifies me. The took a sword as a person, died, got reanimated and a stab kills them again. And, apparently they drown too. Didn't they ever watch Pirates? Walk under the lake onto the hill where Jon was.
They repeated the Jamie in the river trick in back to back episodes. And, it didn't get any more believable with Jon. I'll bet Leo wishes he had Jon's resistance to ice cold water; he'd be hanging out with Kate Winslet today.
I'm sorry, but the Bejen part was the worst part for me. The utter stupid convenience of it all.
A close second was Arya just leaving faces hanging around. Heck, Littlefinger did a better job of hiding the note and he *wanted* Arya to find it.
I'm a little surprised that Bran had more face time when he was learning to be a tree than when hanging out with family. I know that he's not Bran any more but you would think they would want to say hi to him, have breakfast and stuff together. If he does intend to tell people what's going on, you would think he would put himself in a position to actually do it.
FYI - The White Walkers arent being killed by just any sword - Longclaw is made of Valyrian Steel (which is said to be forged by Dragon fire). Regular swords don't have the same effect.
Yeah, but the wights were getting re-killed by regular stuff, which was my point.
Ah, sorry. Suppose you're right there. That said, if the body of a wight isn't burned I'm pretty sure the NK can just raise them again so I don't think they really stay dead.
was the High Priest, who died from the bear wounds / frostbite overnight. The guy that fell over the edge i believe was just a wildling we see in the back of the group - all the secondary characters in that group died.
For all saying Bran is the night king, i get why that can make some sense - but the prophecy said he would never walk again, but he would fly.
If he's now flying on dragons + raven stuff... why doesnt the Night King's walking count? (not to mention his gold medal Javelin skills)
isn't it not a time/marching slowly issue but that they have to contend with the same magic that didn't allow them into the cave with the 3 eyed raven until Bran got marked to pass the wall?
of the main guys from the group had to go. Can't keep putting fan favorite characters in these perilous situations only to miraculously save them. It becomes too predictable and manipulative. Tormund or Jorah would have been sufficient.
For instance, not saying I want Jon to die but even when he goes into the water, we know he's making it out somehow. I'm not asking for another Red Wedding, it' a different show than it was then, but some middle ground would be nice.
I can suspend some disbelief when it comes to the ravens, time, distances traveled. But it's just a touch to predictable right now.
Still though, the action itself is unbelievable to watch. No show can do what this one is capable of.
the Night's King, just shoot the javelin at the A-team?
saving it for the dragon?
he had a 10,000 strong army standing on one side of an unfrozen lake waiting for it to freeze and he could have been just chucking javelins at them picking them off one by one.
Bran may be the Night's King, but if he is then killing himself should end the whole army, since by killing the Night's King all the Wights he brought back die too, which through connections to the other white walkers, is probably everyone.
the Night's King, just shoot the javelin at the A-team?
saving it for the dragon?
he had a 10,000 strong army standing on one side of an unfrozen lake waiting for it to freeze and he could have been just chucking javelins at them picking them off one by one.
Bran may be the Night's King, but if he is then killing himself should end the whole army, since by killing the Night's King all the Wights he brought back die too, which through connections to the other white walkers, is probably everyone.
It didn't look like they had that many javelins and the a-team was going to be toast pretty easily if the ice hadn't broken and the dragons didn't show up, so he didn't really need to use them until it was too late.
the Night's King, just shoot the javelin at the A-team?
saving it for the dragon?
he had a 10,000 strong army standing on one side of an unfrozen lake waiting for it to freeze and he could have been just chucking javelins at them picking them off one by one.
Bran may be the Night's King, but if he is then killing himself should end the whole army, since by killing the Night's King all the Wights he brought back die too, which through connections to the other white walkers, is probably everyone.
To me, it seemed likt the NK was waiting for the dragons to arrive. The entire thing reeked of a trap to me. The NK is likely a greenseer himself, giving him the ability to see ahead. He was also aware of Bran when Bran tried to tap in and find him, thus marking Bran and breaking the magic.
A part of me thinks the reason why the one wight they captured didn't explode when Jon struck the head white walker was so that the NK would have a wight south of the Wall. Perhaps this breaks the magic that prevents the WW from breaking through?
We talked about it in the other GoT thread but here are the highlights about want we discussed there...
* There's an interesting theory that leads to Bran being the Night King. So the theory states he goes back to the moment the night king was created, wargs into the man.... tries to explain what will happen and why they shouldn't do this... they call bull shit and do it anyways leaving bran as the night king.
* That would also make a lot of sense. It's seems like the Night King has always been one step ahead of Bran in their visions. So this theory would help prove that since the Night King would always know what to expect since he first lived those experiences as Bran and always know a counter for all of Bran's moves.
* Plus also explain how in episode 6x05 Meera was able to drag Bran away without getting caught by all the Night Kings wrights. I know that Hodor and Uncle Benjen helped but if this theory is correct, the Night King would want Meera to get away and help Bran cross the Wall or he'd never exist.
* Not to even mention why the Night King has always looked at Jon with a special interest. If it is Bran, then of course he'd look with interest with what Jon is doing since it is his brother/cousin.
* The fact Old Nan told him the Night's King name is Brandon Stark can't be merely coincidental. Or could it?
* Plus the old Three Eyed Raven mentioned to Bran that he'd wouldn't walk again (In Bran's old crippled body) but that he would fly. Most thought this meant warging into birds or one of the dragons. Although now that the Night King has his very own dragon, if Bran is the Night King, he will be able to fly now.
But the Night King can walk, so wouldn't that negate the 3 eyed raven's claim that "Bran wouldn't walk again"?
Bran warged into Hodor and "walked" so by that logic he has walked again, but him actually being the Night's King requires IMO more than waging into him.
I believe it's true and there is a lot of evidence in the show to suggest it that Bran is the Night King, and the reasons he "became the Night King" and why it won't accomplish what he feels it will accomplish.
I do think killing himself might kill the Night King.
than wouldn't he know it by now? He has spent a ton of time seeing the past, and future through the Weirwoods. I think he would know that, would he not? I mean he has already seen that the Whites are going to come past the wall, via his discussion with Meera. I'm not sure I really buy this theory. I do believe he will be integral in defeating the Nights King, but I just don't see how he is him. Why can't the Night King just be the powerful creation that the Children of the Forrest created, he has been defeated before, they need to understand what is in those books Sam has, and what brings him back.
but I can see Bran having a connection to him that helps either defeat him or perhaps turn him back, sort of reversing the way he was turned from man into White Walker by the Children of the Forest originally
Seems like a better explanation is that the Night King is a Stark and therefore has powers that run through the entire line of Starks, hence his ability to greensee.
A part of me thinks the reason why the one wight they captured didn't explode when Jon struck the head white walker was so that the NK would have a wight south of the Wall. Perhaps this breaks the magic that prevents the WW from breaking through?
Wights must be able to travel south of the wall otherwise Jon would never be able to bring one back in the first place. Also, wasn't there a wight brought back to Castle Black in the beginning of the series? So, that should have pierced the magic.
In the books, the spend a lot of time talking about the Horn of [Jericho] something which can bring the Wall down. I think that is a dropped plot point for the show. The Wall is ice; maybe you don't need Bran, maybe Vyserion can huff and puff and blow the Wall down?
and it's taken from some blogs/articles, but I think it merits consideration.
Quote:
.....The theory that Bran is the Night King, as explained by Reddit user turm0il26, involves the Stark boy's penchant for meddling with the past… and the inevitable consequences of that action. Bran has been warned on multiple occasions not to stay too long while warging or greenseeing, lest he lose himself somehow. What if all those warnings have been foreshadowing, and Bran does lose himself eventually — inside the mind of the man who becomes the Night King?
Viewers have already seen that Bran has the capability to warg into someone's consciousness while visiting the past; this is what he was doing when he inadvertently broke Hodor's mind. What if Bran becomes so desperate (perhaps because he feels guilty for his part in letting the White Walkers through the Wall?) that he believes the only way he can help end the Great War is to go back in time and stop the Children from ever creating the Night King to begin with?
Of course, savvy fantasy fans know how these time travel plots usually work: history is written in ink, and anything you do to try and change it will only end up causing whatever happened in the first place. But Bran, frantic to rectify the mistake he made, might forget that simple fact. And if warging back 30 years was enough to break Hodor's mind, warging back thousands of years should be more than enough to break the mind of not just the man he's trying to save… but Bran's own mind as well.
With Bran's consciousness lost inside the Night King's mind — and with the Night King's mind shattered beyond any thought other than vengeance against the beings who created him as a weapon of war — the Stark and the White Walker would truly become one.
There's foreshadowing of this twist in the scene of the Night King's origin. Bran clenches his fist, as though in pain, just as the man is about to be stabbed. When he wakes up, Bran is lying against the tree in exactly the same position as the man in the vision. Bran's first words upon awakening are to tell Leaf, "It was you," as though part of him recognized the being who stabbed him thousands of years ago. And when he asks Leaf who the Children needed to defend themselves from, she responds, "From you."...
Leaf doesn't just state that she created them to protect them from you Â
The First Men and Children of the Forrest were enemies at first, and the First Men almost wiped them all out. They were created in desperation to save themselves, which ultimately backfired.
RE: Leaf doesn't just state that she created them to protect them from you Â
The First Men and Children of the Forrest were enemies at first, and the First Men almost wiped them all out. They were created in desperation to save themselves, which ultimately backfired.
agree, changes nothing with the theory though
everybody complains about the time that characters travel Â
I mean this reviewer is seriously questioning where the white walkers got those chains from? Seriously? Who gives a fuck?
Well, that reviewer probably has a distaste for overuse of Deus ex machina. The white walkers either fabricating or having the foresight to drag along big chains for dragon recovery purposes certainly counts as one.
RE: everybody complains about the time that characters travel Â
and it not being believable in a show that contains Dragons and an army of the dead...
Its a fantasy tv show.. who cares about travel time. Just enjoy it..
Yeah, but there are limits to which the "it's a fantasy tv show" dismissal should not apply. For example, if Euron's fleet of ships flew in to kidnap Jon Snow in the midst of the battle, you wouldn't just shrug and say, "Oh, ships fly now... awesome!"
The episode basically treated summoning a dragon attack like a Call of Duty airstrike perk, which makes me wonder why Highgarden didn't take advantage while being sacked.
I mean this reviewer is seriously questioning where the white walkers got those chains from? Seriously? Who gives a fuck?
Well, that reviewer probably has a distaste for overuse of Deus ex machina. The white walkers either fabricating or having the foresight to drag along big chains for dragon recovery purposes certainly counts as one.
Another reviewer posed the question, which is funny when you think about it, is that if the dead wights are not impervious to water, drowning when they fall into the lake and dissolving to such an extent that they could drag Jon down, weaponless and all and yet only Jon survives, how did they get down there to wrap the chains around the dragon in the first place?
Keep in mind that water doesn't refreeze instantly either, especially to a point that hundreds (thousands) can walk on it. It was likely a couple days later, though surviving in the cold with little to no food that long is questionable.
Another reviewer posed the question, which is funny when you think about it, is that if the dead wights are not impervious to water, drowning when they fall into the lake and dissolving to such an extent that they could drag Jon down, weaponless and all and yet only Jon survives, how did they get down there to wrap the chains around the dragon in the first place?
Not sure about the drowning part, but if the wights can't swim (plausible) then they would just sink to the bottom as bone is denser than water. Then walk? on the bottom to chain up the dragon. I doubt the night king would care about sacrificing a few to the bottom of the sea.
Another reviewer posed the question, which is funny when you think about it, is that if the dead wights are not impervious to water, drowning when they fall into the lake and dissolving to such an extent that they could drag Jon down, weaponless and all and yet only Jon survives, how did they get down there to wrap the chains around the dragon in the first place?
Yeah, it's totally stupid and ultimately lazy and thoughtless writing, meant only to deliver a dramatic "cliffhanger" during which the seemingly-lost dragon is -- surprise!!! -- recovered by the enemy. Like we didn't see that coming. Just have the dragon crash on land to spare us the embarrassing scene in the first place.
RE: RE: I don't want to sound like a hater here. Â
But, the whole plot from last episode was so dumb (bringing back a white walker? really?) and its bleeding into this episode.
It was dumb - really from the beginning it's been a challenge for the writers to include the wight walkers into the show in a way that makes sense. But the last two episodes did serve the purpose of making clear what the stakes are and forging important relationships that will be key later on.
heres one
RE: everybody complains about the time that characters travel Â
and it not being believable in a show that contains Dragons and an army of the dead...
Its a fantasy tv show.. who cares about travel time. Just enjoy it..
Part of the attraction of the show is that it's not typical fantasy. There's no big, flying, shaggy dog that they all jump on to go touring and have adventures.
Tolkein once wrote an essay about how even fantasy has to have some sort of logic to it, in order to be successful. You can push boundaries but you have to tread carefully about breaking physical laws,
One reviewer today wrote that the success of GoT to a large extent was that it wasn't LoTR and posited that to a large extent it now is becoming LoTR and that's not a satisfying thing.
Well... accepting what you're shown explicitly actually doesn't really count as imagination. The imagination is actually being exercised when people are skeptical of these developments.
Why is it wrong to enjoy fiction and fantasy books or shows Â
but also want that fantasy to be explainable or follow rules?
We know where dragons came from and why.
We know how the Night's King and his army were created and why.
We know how Wight's are created and killed.
We do not know how Gendry can run from the other side of the wall all the way to eastwatch, have a Maester write a message, send a raven to dragonstone, have the raven get to dragonstone and deliver the message to Dany, who contemplates her next move, then decides to hop on her dragon and save the A-team while they've been waiting the whole time on an island surrounded by a frozen lake with no food or shelter.
There is nothing wrong with questioning things like this, and yet still loving the show.
and I seriously doubt the books follow the same plot, the pacing of the show seems to have well outpaced the book pace this whole season, if not sooner.
We're invested. We've invested a lot of time and thought into the series. But if you were somehow able to completely remove this investment from last night's episode, if it weren't protected by the general good will its developed over the past half decade, if it were simply a stand-alone movie or premier of a new series... well, it would basically have been something beneath The Mummy.
It was certainly gratifying to see the dragon emerge from nowhere just in the nick of time and roast the wights that were basically in mid-weapon swing in a "Fuck yeah!" sense, but I still had a sour taste in my mouth from observing a half dozen men tirelessly fend off several hundred skeletons by stabbing them with daggers.
Keep in mind that water doesn't refreeze instantly either, especially to a point that hundreds (thousands) can walk on it. It was likely a couple days later, though surviving in the cold with little to no food that long is questionable.
I would imagine they brought food and water with them
RE: Why is it wrong to enjoy fiction and fantasy books or shows Â
We do not know how Gendry can run from the other side of the wall all the way to eastwatch, have a Maester write a message, send a raven to dragonstone, have the raven get to dragonstone and deliver the message to Dany, who contemplates her next move, then decides to hop on her dragon and save the A-team while they've been waiting the whole time on an island surrounded by a frozen lake with no food or shelter.
Right. If you know you're going to eventually need to write a scene in which Jon summons Dany hoping for immediate assistance, you'd have done your characters a service by presenting them as smart enough to anticipate such an event. Maybe have Dany station a dragon and/or herself a bit closer? Hell, maybe just do away with the whole ridiculous mission to kidnap a skeleton in the first place?
The panic that consumed the team as they were about to be approached by a large undead army suggested that no one considered that idea. For someone who will apparently be counted upon as a military strategist, Jon's execution and planning of the enterprise was stupid as hell. But it's the kind of stupidity you don't hold against the character, but the writers who conceive his actions in the first place.
We do not know how Gendry can run from the other side of the wall all the way to eastwatch, have a Maester write a message, send a raven to dragonstone, have the raven get to dragonstone and deliver the message to Dany, who contemplates her next move, then decides to hop on her dragon and save the A-team while they've been waiting the whole time on an island surrounded by a frozen lake with no food or shelter.
Right. If you know you're going to eventually need to write a scene in which Jon summons Dany hoping for immediate assistance, you'd have done your characters a service by presenting them as smart enough to anticipate such an event. Maybe have Dany station a dragon and/or herself a bit closer? Hell, maybe just do away with the whole ridiculous mission to kidnap a skeleton in the first place?
The panic that consumed the team as they were about to be approached by a large undead army suggested that no one considered that idea. For someone who will apparently be counted upon as a military strategist, Jon's execution and planning of the enterprise was stupid as hell. But it's the kind of stupidity you don't hold against the character, but the writers who conceive his actions in the first place.
I think I said earlier that you can tell now that it's a tv show and not GoT. I can't conceive of Martin, even knowing what a big fat blob of lazy goo that he is, being this lazy in plot and device development. It's everything about bring the story to the screen and then outpacing the source material. The budget, the time constraints, the speed of television seasons, the sloth of the author. They are two entirely different things now. I was thinking that I had no real interest or reason to continue on reading when the next volume finally does come out, but I was wrong. I really do want to read on because I think that there might could be a very different story told.
I think this may have been the worst written episode of the entire series. It's really not that good. I never bought into the fanfiction argument, but that's what this was. Benjen says he can't go with Jon because there's no time? Well why not? He didn't even have to get off the horse, Jon could have just jumped on the back. My biggest complaint is the hundred pound chains used to get Viserion out of the water. I get the Night King is magical. But unless he's an actual and literal magician how do you make hundred pound chains the size of those pop up out of thin air?
they spent years making a plausible plot, one that was meticulously crafted primarily from the source material. I EXPECT quality writing and I am no longer getting it. I've invested hundreds of hours into the books, TV show, and following both online; when the writers cut corners its not only noticeable but it's really fucking lame. They are now writing down to cater to the fans, which is a shame.
I still applaud the show for a lot of things but the writing isn't very good anymore. As easy as it is for someone you to say "who cares it's just fantasy" I can just as easily say "well the writing used to make sense and now it doesn't". If you are cool with it, great. But others aren't and it's a valid stance.
I think that there is an overarching message to the story (books and show) that virtue is generally accompanied by really unfavorable stuff. Either lack of other positive character traits or, generally, a fatal outcome. Virtue is not really a good thing in the GoT world. It's kind of a cynical view.
In thee show, it doesn't help that Kit Harington is dull. I read a couple of articles complaining that the romance type scenes between Jon and Danys are tedious and there is no chemistry. But these are the two most wooden actors in existence and what we are seeing is almost pollination rather than romance.
The Jon and Dany final scene was like a soap opera Â
The injured but buff shirtless male protagonist professing his love for the hot female protagonist who sits bedside was cringe worthy. It's like some daytime crap.
I think that there is an overarching message to the story (books and show) that virtue is generally accompanied by really unfavorable stuff. Either lack of other positive character traits or, generally, a fatal outcome. Virtue is not really a good thing in the GoT world. It's kind of a cynical view.
In thee show, it doesn't help that Kit Harington is dull. I read a couple of articles complaining that the romance type scenes between Jon and Danys are tedious and there is no chemistry. But these are the two most wooden actors in existence and what we are seeing is almost pollination rather than romance.
I thought that was intentional Jon Snow character acting. He's always been awkward around girls (the few he's interacted with at least) - well since Ygritte I guess.
I kept thinking he'd make his move on Dany, but no, just more awkward Jon Snow male/female interactions.
He's no Khal Drogo with the ladies.
RE: RE: I don't want to sound like a hater here. Â
But, the whole plot from last episode was so dumb (bringing back a white walker? really?) and its bleeding into this episode.
Not a white walker, a wight. I didn't have an issue with that plot point.
But the raven flying as fast as an airplane? OK.
I agree with Jerz... the introduction of the plan in the first place was pretty stupid. It was proposed as the only way that Cersei's support against the White Walkers could be secured, but it was also accepted as a foolproof way, worthy of any potential (hell, likely) sacrifices the team-beyond-the-wall would suffer. And everyone just kind of accepted it as such. I was disappointed that no one seemed to consider the mission no to be worth the risk on the grounds that
a) it may not have been possible to capture a solitary wight from what, for all anyone knew, was an army that always traveled in packs of thousands
b) Cersei's reaction to a successfully-captured wight might not exactly go as expected, and
c) Cersei's participation in the war against the White Walkers was never really convincingly established as necessary in the first place.
Keep in mind that water doesn't refreeze instantly either, especially to a point that hundreds (thousands) can walk on it. It was likely a couple days later, though surviving in the cold with little to no food that long is questionable.
I would imagine they brought food and water with them
Yes, it was on the sleds they were pulling. It's more the cold that would've (should've?) killed them, though they might've "lost" the food when they started running.
the Benjen/Jon "reunion" was by far what pissed me off the most. Jon joined the Night's Watch in large part because of his uncle, agonized over his possible death so much that his brothers used Benjen's name to lure Jon into their assassination plot, and all we get it is...."Uncle Benjen...how!?!?"
Interestingly, the showrunners repeatedly refer to Benjen as "Coldhands" during HBO's "Inside the Episode" segment. Martin has said Benjen is not Coldhands, and Coldhands has not been referenced in the show, so it's odd they would even bring that up.
What's worse about the mission north of the wall Â
is that it was Tyrion's idea. The same Tyrion who could outsmart Cersei, Varys and Littlefinger is now coming up with one dumb plan after another. It actually lends credence to Dany's suspicion that he's still on the Lannister side. He can't possibly think Cersei will team up to battle the northern threat, can he?
the Benjen/Jon "reunion" was by far what pissed me off the most. Jon joined the Night's Watch in large part because of his uncle, agonized over his possible death so much that his brothers used Benjen's name to lure Jon into their assassination plot, and all we get it is...."Uncle Benjen...how!?!?"
Interestingly, the showrunners repeatedly refer to Benjen as "Coldhands" during HBO's "Inside the Episode" segment. Martin has said Benjen is not Coldhands, and Coldhands has not been referenced in the show, so it's odd they would even bring that up.
Yea that was really lame. I mean, why even have that scene? Just have Jon get scooped up by Rhaegal or something. But you know its because they wanted to "tie up" the loose end of Benjen still being alive and Jon not having seen him before he died. Mission accomplished!
the Benjen/Jon "reunion" was by far what pissed me off the most. Jon joined the Night's Watch in large part because of his uncle, agonized over his possible death so much that his brothers used Benjen's name to lure Jon into their assassination plot, and all we get it is...."Uncle Benjen...how!?!?"
Yep... a lot of it all just seems so perfunctory at this point.
They all fell in the ice and were able to swim up and grab Tormunds legs out of the hole at one point. Mystery solved.
The chains likely came from Hardhome for people actually worrying about it. When they finally dragged the dragon out it could have been a week later. We have no idea.
When he arrived back at the wall, wouldn't slowing down a horse and expanding that time frame with another rider add to the risk?!
If you are going to apply that kind of logic, then you would also have to accept that he would have had approximately 10 seconds of survival time once he entered into the frozen water in the first place.
I haven't even talked about how weird it was that the Night King chose to throw his javelin-missile at the flying dragon several hundred yards away... instead of the closer, larger, landed, stationary dragon that people were in the process of climbing upon.
They're certainly stalling Jon and dragon riding Â
That's basically the entire point of him falling in the lake and being saved by Benjen. He didn't get on the dragon or this wouldn't have happened. So now it makes me wonder why. Stalling for dramatic effect for season 8? Or does he never ride a dragon, destroying 20+ years of theories.
I don't know but this episode made it clear they intentionally kept him off a dragon for whatever reason.
They all fell in the ice and were able to swim up and grab Tormunds legs out of the hole at one point. Mystery solved.
The chains likely came from Hardhome for people actually worrying about it. When they finally dragged the dragon out it could have been a week later. We have no idea.
If they cold swim, why would they stop and wait for hours before trying to go to the island?
I think this may have been the worst written episode of the entire series. It's really not that good. I never bought into the fanfiction argument, but that's what this was. Benjen says he can't go with Jon because there's no time? Well why not? He didn't even have to get off the horse, Jon could have just jumped on the back. My biggest complaint is the hundred pound chains used to get Viserion out of the water. I get the Night King is magical. But unless he's an actual and literal magician how do you make hundred pound chains the size of those pop up out of thin air?
I just assumed that the chains used were the kind used at that time to tow large ships or build large structures, all of which may have existed at some point north of the wall.
And again, it's safe to assume that Benjen wanted to die. He'd been roaming around half dead for years - told Jon "no time" probably just to shut him up from arguing with him.
But the chains and Benjen and the rate of flight for a raven to me just seem like minor things in relation to the important developments in the episode.
They all fell in the ice and were able to swim up and grab Tormunds legs out of the hole at one point. Mystery solved.
But this then opens up even more plot problems. If they can swim and are not affected by the ice water since they are already dead, then why did they even need to wait for the lake to refreeze to attack? If they could swim than what difference did it make? And why did the ones that fell into the lake when it initially cracked seem to disappear if they could in fact swim?
They all fell in the ice and were able to swim up and grab Tormunds legs out of the hole at one point. Mystery solved.
The chains likely came from Hardhome for people actually worrying about it. When they finally dragged the dragon out it could have been a week later. We have no idea.
If they cold swim, why would they stop and wait for hours before trying to go to the island?
sure would have made things more difficult when Snow and the Wildlings were escaping to their ships at Hardhome.
Also, let's not act like wondering about the chains is some trivial nitpick. It makes sense to pause and wonder where and how a wandering army who previously hadn't been shown to have such a large and random thing suddenly possesses it. It's the kind of thing satirized by how the campy 60's Batman would conveniently have shark repellent in his utility belt.
RE: RE: Considering Jon was almost frozen to death Â
When he arrived back at the wall, wouldn't slowing down a horse and expanding that time frame with another rider add to the risk?!
If you are going to apply that kind of logic, then you would also have to accept that he would have had approximately 10 seconds of survival time once he entered into the frozen water in the first place.
Maybe but the Benjen complaints are still stupid IMO. He was half dead and had already vocalized to Bran that he only wanted to take out more white walkers before he could finally die. Would people have been happier if he escorted Jon back to the wall and then went back and took a few white walkers before he died?? And again, if Jon was on the verge of death when he got back to the wall, it pretty obviously stands to reason more time= less chance of survival.
They all fell in the ice and were able to swim up and grab Tormunds legs out of the hole at one point. Mystery solved.
The chains likely came from Hardhome for people actually worrying about it. When they finally dragged the dragon out it could have been a week later. We have no idea.
If they cold swim, why would they stop and wait for hours before trying to go to the island?
Maybe because they didn't know they can swim? Or maybe they figured they were surrounded and they could come up with a better method? I can swim... you wouldn't see me jumping in the water. How smart do we want to make them?
I haven't even talked about how weird it was that the Night King chose to throw his javelin-missile at the flying dragon several hundred yards away... instead of the closer, larger, landed, stationary dragon that people were in the process of climbing upon.
Haha yeah that was ridiculous. And why did he take so long in between throwing javelins one and two? Really took his sweet time there.
then you'd think he would have been better prepared for the dragon's arrival -- he and his crew each would have been holding javelins instead of needing to dramatically retrieve them, and they likely would have captured more than one dragon.
I haven't even talked about how weird it was that the Night King chose to throw his javelin-missile at the flying dragon several hundred yards away... instead of the closer, larger, landed, stationary dragon that people were in the process of climbing upon.
Haha yeah that was ridiculous. And why did he take so long in between throwing javelins one and two? Really took his sweet time there.
I guess the Night King works in mysterious ways?
I think there's limitations on seeing the future Â
Jojen knew Bran needed to find the 3 eyed raven and was important to the future, but he didn't know all the details.
I don't think the NK knew every little thing that was going to happen in that battle. He certainly didn't seem like he expected the dragons to show up.
That Westeros has two gold medalists that no one realized. Apparently Gendry is a gold mead sprinter and The Night King is a gold medal javelin thrower. Amazing.
Which dragon is more of a threat....the one stationary loading a bunch of people on the ground or the one in the air with a great tactical vantage point that's roasting thousands of soldiers and just circled back and appears to now be coming right me.... hmmm.... let's think about this...
Which dragon is more of a threat....the one stationary loading a bunch of people on the ground or the one in the air with a great tactical vantage point that's roasting thousands of soldiers and just circled back and appears to now be coming right me.... hmmm.... let's think about this...
Eh, all the living people were climbing onto one dragon and killing that dragon would've prevented their escape. Could easily argue that was the more strategic move.
You have to look at how long do you think Jon and the rest of the A-Team was stuck on that rock? Some think it's only a few hours and "magically" the ravens flew down south and the dragons flew up north in a matter of hours???
Personally, I think it was a matter of 3 days that passed.
Day 1 - Jon told Gendry to run back to the Wall to send a raven when there was there was still daylight outside. Gendry finally arrives at the Wall at sun down at the end of that first day when Davos sends the Ravens.
Plus Jon and the A-Team are protected from attacks because the ice all around the rock had broken apart and created a barrier between them and the White Walkers.
Day 2 - Following day, the group wakes up to find Thoros the Red Priest died from his zombie polar bear attack. This is also when the group stands up to stair down the Night King and Beric tells Jon that they both should make an attempt to take down the Night King as the chosen ones of the Lord of the Light. Jon says their best chance is to wait on Dany and the dragons.
This is also when the Ravens arrive at Dragonstone and Dany makes the choice to take her dragons to save Jon. So if Davos sent the ravens the previous night and Dany got them late afternoon, then it did take the ravens almost a full day to arrive there.
Day 3 - The Hound out of boredom, starts throwing rocks at the white walkers. This was, in my opinion, the biggest clue on the time lapse that occurred. The broken ice from Day 1 had fully frozen over again and allows the white walkers to now fully cross the lake. Sea water like that doesn't freeze in a matter of hours and needs a few days.
As for the dragons, you figure they'd fly extremely faster then ravens with their wingspans. So if Dany took off late afternoon of Day 2, they would have made it by morning of Day 3 in my opinion.
Of course the writers could have done a better job of relaying the time that went by but I think the time line above of 3 days is fairly reasonable.
it lends more credence to the Night King being Bran, because I don't believe the Night King fits the characteristics of a traditional greenseer.
and greenseers can warg as well, has the Night King warged at all? I can't recall off the top of my head.
Maybe? Does the disintegration of all the wights earlier in the episode when Jon killed the WW imply that the WW was warging into them?
that would mean all white walkers were greenseers and wargs, I don't think so. I think the wights just work where whatever white walker re-animates them, when that white walker is killed all the wights it has reanimated are killed (again) too.
just my assumption. I'm also assuming the Night King has different powers than the White Walkers.
none of the dragons were actually approaching the Night King Â
but I suppose we'll now hear arguments that he cared deeply for all his wights and that the flying dragon was killing slightly more of them than Drogon was.
it lends more credence to the Night King being Bran, because I don't believe the Night King fits the characteristics of a traditional greenseer.
and greenseers can warg as well, has the Night King warged at all? I can't recall off the top of my head.
I think the Night King warged into the ravens Bran used to spy on him last episode, kind of canceling/disconnecting Bran's connection to the ravens.
Plus wouldn't surprise me if the Night King warged into the polar bear to spy on Jon's group. Why else was there an isolated zombie bear wandering away so far from the Night King's base camp/army.
perhaps the White Walkers could have collaborated a bit and thrown multiple javelins at multiple dragons -- including the stationary one right in front of you -- in a coordinated but admittedly less-dramatic-looking attack?
Just for context and not to be a dick but it's like 2500 miles from Â
and I say for context because sometimes I know I don't have a great concept of how far or close these places are, especially earlier in the story when Tyrion was traveling the seven kingdoms.
Compare that to the distance from Slaver's Bay to KL and compute dragon time.
LOL well the average speed of a flying dragon, reduced by the appropriate factor for the head wind and rest room stops, makes this all fit together perfectly.
RE: none of the dragons were actually approaching the Night King Â
but I suppose we'll now hear arguments that he cared deeply for all his wights and that the flying dragon was killing slightly more of them than Drogon was.
Watch it again.. Viseryan clearly is making a right turn and coming towards the Knight King right as he is about to unload.
I mean, I guess the Night King was absolutely certain that he'd be able to hit the distant flying target as he knew the writers were on his side so the choice is ultimately irrelevant. But I don't see how that shot establishes the flying dragon as an impending threat and proves his choice was based on self-preservation instead of being dictated by, "We can't have him throw it at the clearly more obvious dragon because that would ultimately end the series."
Even that's a stretch. A dragon flying 100mph would still need to fly for an entire day straight to get to the Wall from Dragonstone. I'm pretty sure a human being couldn't withstand even that speed in the open air, no less for that length of time.
The thing that really bothers me is that it wouldn't have been that hard to avoid the whole thing. They could have had an awesome Helm's Deep type of siege scene that would have made sense and given the dragons enough time to get there and not be stupid. Maybe the Rangers set up some sort of way station structure for longer forays or maybe there is some kind of naturally fortified area that the Magnificent 7/A-team could have held off the wight horde for a few days. Or they could even have written a scene or two on that rock with everyone speculating about what the night king was waiting for. Anything to show a reasonable passage of time. It's comical to expect nearly 5000 miles of travel to happen in what appeared to be about 12-18 hours. That entire sequence was either a massive failure in writing or in execution.
I think Fake Aegon will try to ride Viserion and fail proving he's a fake. Euron will steal Viserion with the horn and at some point the dragon will wind up dead or it will be revealed Euron is an agent of the White Walkers and deliver the dragon to them.
So this is their way of getting to the important book plot of the White Walkers gaining control of Viserion but in a vastly different way. I doubt I'm totally correct on this but I can see some version of this playing out if and when the books are ever written.
I think Fake Aegon will try to ride Viserion and fail proving he's a fake. Euron will steal Viserion with the horn and at some point the dragon will wind up dead or it will be revealed Euron is an agent of the White Walkers and deliver the dragon to them.
So this is their way of getting to the important book plot of the White Walkers gaining control of Viserion but in a vastly different way. I doubt I'm totally correct on this but I can see some version of this playing out if and when the books are ever written.
By Fake Aegon, do you mean Young Griff? Pretty sure he's already toast...
RE: RE: The dragons flying quickly is believable Â
Even that's a stretch. A dragon flying 100mph would still need to fly for an entire day straight to get to the Wall from Dragonstone. I'm pretty sure a human being couldn't withstand even that speed in the open air, no less for that length of time.
The thing that really bothers me is that it wouldn't have been that hard to avoid the whole thing. They could have had an awesome Helm's Deep type of siege scene that would have made sense and given the dragons enough time to get there and not be stupid. Maybe the Rangers set up some sort of way station structure for longer forays or maybe there is some kind of naturally fortified area that the Magnificent 7/A-team could have held off the wight horde for a few days. Or they could even have written a scene or two on that rock with everyone speculating about what the night king was waiting for. Anything to show a reasonable passage of time. It's comical to expect nearly 5000 miles of travel to happen in what appeared to be about 12-18 hours. That entire sequence was either a massive failure in writing or in execution.
Exactly. Or have them being hunted and on the run in the snow and forest for days. That's basically what happened to the Nights Watch after the Fist of the First Men.
The end result was fine. How they chose to get there was lazily done.
I think Fake Aegon will try to ride Viserion and fail proving he's a fake. Euron will steal Viserion with the horn and at some point the dragon will wind up dead or it will be revealed Euron is an agent of the White Walkers and deliver the dragon to them.
So this is their way of getting to the important book plot of the White Walkers gaining control of Viserion but in a vastly different way. I doubt I'm totally correct on this but I can see some version of this playing out if and when the books are ever written.
By Fake Aegon, do you mean Young Griff? Pretty sure he's already toast...
Young Griff is still alive last left in the books, he's with Jon Connington I believe.
I think Fake Aegon will try to ride Viserion and fail proving he's a fake. Euron will steal Viserion with the horn and at some point the dragon will wind up dead or it will be revealed Euron is an agent of the White Walkers and deliver the dragon to them.
So this is their way of getting to the important book plot of the White Walkers gaining control of Viserion but in a vastly different way. I doubt I'm totally correct on this but I can see some version of this playing out if and when the books are ever written.
By Fake Aegon, do you mean Young Griff? Pretty sure he's already toast...
Yeah but he's still alive. You might be thinking of Quentyn Martell who was roasted by one of them and is dead. I suspect it will be Viseiron Young Griff will attempt to ride, and will fail, Viserion rejecting him, proving he's not who he says he is.
My bad! Yes, I mixed up the Martell son with Young Griff Â
The thing that really bothers me is that it wouldn't have been that hard to avoid the whole thing. They could have had an awesome Helm's Deep type of siege scene that would have made sense and given the dragons enough time to get there and not be stupid.
Hell, I'd have preferred if they just abandoned the entire "We NEED to risk our lives capturing a wight because doing so WILL make Cersei believe us and join us... but we needn't spend any more time developing this plan beyond half baked, and we certainly don't need to plan for any contingencies!" thing to begin with.
RE: RE: RE: The dragons flying quickly is believable Â
The thing that really bothers me is that it wouldn't have been that hard to avoid the whole thing. They could have had an awesome Helm's Deep type of siege scene that would have made sense and given the dragons enough time to get there and not be stupid.
Hell, I'd have preferred if they just abandoned the entire "We NEED to risk our lives capturing a wight because doing so WILL make Cersei believe us and join us... but we needn't spend any more time developing this plan beyond half baked, and we certainly don't need to plan for any contingencies!" thing to begin with.
This I agree with. I mentioned it last week. The plan in general was stupid. At least Jon said it wasn't the best plan and acknowledged it.
Apppeared to be circling towards the Knights King. Plus we all know how protected they are of their mother. What do we think happens if he attacked the one with Dany while that one was already in the air not that far off? It's BBQ time for the Knights King long before he gets s second shot off.
and with that comes a drastic decline in quality and realism. If they could do things over again, I'm sure they'd prefer to stretch this out into 3 seasons while having reduced seasons 3-5 by one.
And yeah, getting Cersei's support is dumb as fuck... but if they can use this Wight to at least team up with Jamie and other leaders within Cersei's camp, maybe just maybe they can galvanize enough support from that side so that WHEN, not if, Cersei tries to ambush them with her Golden Company at some point in Season 7... they can overcome it.
(or maybe in GOT as with other HBO series, we'll be left with a vastly disappointing ending where we dont know who the fuck ended up winning, or with Cersei winning despite doing nothing to beat the WW)
Anyway, I'm entertained... that's all i can really ask for our of a television show/movie.
Apppeared to be circling towards the Knights King. Plus we all know how protected they are of their mother. What do we think happens if he attacked the one with Dany while that one was already in the air not that far off? It's BBQ time for the Knights King long before he gets s second shot off.
I didnt think the Night King could be defeated by fire.
about the chains and the javelins and the wight-napping. What about how the silly Arya/Sansa tension is ultimately a Three's Company-like misunderstanding that could easily be remedied if either of them asked any logical questions of one another, and/or answered such questions with explanations rather than riddles?
Time passing to at least night while Gendry was running? He really couldn't have ran back to the wall over 12-14 hours??
The run to the wall is semi-believable. It's the raven then flying 1200 km followed by the dragons flying the same distance and only 1 day (2 days tops) passing all while the A-team was surrounded on a rock.
RE: RE: Am I misremembering or did they not show Â
Time passing to at least night while Gendry was running? He really couldn't have ran back to the wall over 12-14 hours??
The run to the wall is semi-believable. It's the raven then flying 1200 km followed by the dragons flying the same distance and only 1 day (2 days tops) passing all while the A-team was surrounded on a rock.
Also, in real life the A-team's GPS batteries might have died, making it less likely that Dany and her dragons would be able to zero in on their exact location in a large region in inclement weather.
Time passing to at least night while Gendry was running? He really couldn't have ran back to the wall over 12-14 hours??
The run to the wall is semi-believable. It's the raven then flying 1200 km followed by the dragons flying the same distance and only 1 day (2 days tops) passing all while the A-team was surrounded on a rock.
Also, in real life the A-team's GPS batteries might have died, making it less likely that Dany and her dragons would be able to zero in on their exact location in a large region in inclement weather.
That's forgivable too. Eagles can see a rabbit from 3.2 km away, so I imagine a dragon can spot a massive horde of wight's from significantly further.
RE: RE: RE: The dragons flying quickly is believable Â
The thing that really bothers me is that it wouldn't have been that hard to avoid the whole thing. They could have had an awesome Helm's Deep type of siege scene that would have made sense and given the dragons enough time to get there and not be stupid.
Hell, I'd have preferred if they just abandoned the entire "We NEED to risk our lives capturing a wight because doing so WILL make Cersei believe us and join us... but we needn't spend any more time developing this plan beyond half baked, and we certainly don't need to plan for any contingencies!" thing to begin with.
If they only had the good sense to look downstream last week, they could have captured Jaime and flew him up to look at the WW and then report back. Far more cost-effective.
if they didn't have so many character arcs to tie up Â
with a limited # of episodes, they could've just had Jon hop on a dragon and fly up there himself and scoop one up before the wights even knew what hit them. Though, then the NK wouldn't have his own dragon to use in battle.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Am I misremembering or did they not show Â
Just because a bird of prey can spot movement in the brush from a considerable distance, that doesn't mean that any flying thing can spot a mass gathering of people in cloudy conditions in an area roughly the size of Utah.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Am I misremembering or did they not show Â
That's forgivable too. Eagles can see a rabbit from 3.2 km away, so I imagine a dragon can spot a massive horde of wight's from significantly further.
Aren't they... different species though?
Sure. I'm just saying that supervision for a real animal isn't unheard of, so it wouldn't be that much of a stretch to believe that dragons have it too. Far more believable than them flying mach 6 with Dany on board...
I'd be pissed at Dany for making us sail all the way to Eastwatch!
How about a scenario where Jon asks for dragon support before they leave Dragonstone and Dany waffles on whether or not to commit. Skip all the Gendry/raven crap and Dany can make a surprise appearance just in the nick of time ala Stannis.
Blissfully ignoring the lack of GPS in both cases, it would have made the timeline muddy enough for it to be plausible.
How about a scenario where Jon asks for dragon support before they leave Dragonstone and Dany waffles on whether or not to commit.
Right. Or Dany offers it. Or Tyrion alludes to how it's possible to provide it. Or someone at least acknowledges the fact that they have dragons, that the mission could be compromised, and the dragons could be of use if the mission becomes compromised.
I'd be pissed at Dany for making us sail all the way to Eastwatch!
How about a scenario where Jon asks for dragon support before they leave Dragonstone and Dany waffles on whether or not to commit. Skip all the Gendry/raven crap and Dany can make a surprise appearance just in the nick of time ala Stannis.
Blissfully ignoring the lack of GPS in both cases, it would have made the timeline muddy enough for it to be plausible.
The relative stupidity of their plans or their inability to work together is part of the story and part of the human experience. I'm only choked at how implausible - no matter how you try to ignore it - of the time/space liberties being forced on us. It's pretty ridiculous. Too bad Uncle B's horse can't support two riders.
RE: RE: Ill never understand the complaints on time traveling Â
They've confirmed many times that MANY years have passed since the show started, arguably a decade since episode 1. Time IS passing. We have 7 damn episodes left. Do we want to spend those 7 episodes watching birds fly with messages for 30 minutes or Gendry riding back on a horse for a whole episode? What's the alternative??
You're confusing time passing off screen and the concept of making it reasonable with what you show on screen.
In this case there is no reasonable way to account for time elapsed and the distance traveled. They spent roughly a day traveling beyond the wall. From the time the gang gets surrounded by the undead at the end of their day and when they wake up the next morning, we are asked to believe that
1. Gendry ran all the way back to where they started.
2. A raven flew the entire length of the continent
3. Dany flew the length of the continent with her dragons
You can make that somewhat believable by stretching the timeline a few days. Have the gang on the run, hiding, etc. It would not have been hard to write something like that and arrive at the same result.
Gentry ran part of the day and all night before collapsing the next morning in front of the East Watch gates. At the very least he was on the move about 16 hours. I thought that was implied. . Lets assume ravens fill the same purpose as carrier pigeons. That means they will fly fast and are long distance flyers. Competitive carrier pigeons fly for over 1,100 miles at an average speed of 50 mph with speeds of 90 mph over short distances. The distance from East watch to Dragon Stone is about 1,000 miles so a raven can fly that distance in a day. Assuming the dragon can fly twice as fast as a raven then that distance can be covered in as little as 10 hours, half a day at most. So by the time that Jon send Gentry for help and Daenerys showing up would have been just under 3 days and this lines up with Jon and crew timeline. Game of Thrones has a lot of Deus ex Machina moments but this is not one of them.
You've got dead armies and dragons and Red Witches/Priests bringing people back to life. Women giving birth to demons who kill rival Baratheon's in the middle of the night, faceless men/women assassines that can change faces and shapes... and watchmen who can cure Greyscale by reading a book.
But I draw the line at dead men being able to pull a dragon from the water and ravens flying fast. That shit's just ridiculous. BOO!!
A work of fiction that incorporates fantasy elements still has boundaries between fantasy and what resembles realism. If Arya gave birth to a horse, you wouldn't just shrug and say "There's magic in the world."
How about a scenario where Jon asks for dragon support before they leave Dragonstone and Dany waffles on whether or not to commit.
Right. Or Dany offers it. Or Tyrion alludes to how it's possible to provide it. Or someone at least acknowledges the fact that they have dragons, that the mission could be compromised, and the dragons could be of use if the mission becomes compromised.
Dany was not ever going to waste her time flying a dragon to help Jon on this - she didn't even believe in wight walkers.
The distress letter that came with the raven, combined with Tyrion forcing her to realize her feelings for Jon, ultimately lead to her having a change in heart and going to his aid.
this series was compelling enough just dealing with the battle for the iron throne ... without all the supernatural shit going on.
but caring about whether it would take Dany 2 days to find the A-Team up north or 4 days... that beef pales in comparison to Arya being able to look and sound like Walder Frey, killing his entire family.
A work of fiction that incorporates fantasy elements still has boundaries between fantasy and what resembles realism. If Arya gave birth to a horse, you wouldn't just shrug and say "There's magic in the world."
. . . I've heard that George RR Martin's original idea for the lead character was supposed to be "Arya Stark, Mother of Horses" - but it didn't have a good ring to it.
some of you need to learn what verisimilitude is Â
this series was compelling enough just dealing with the battle for the iron throne ... without all the supernatural shit going on.
but caring about whether it would take Dany 2 days to find the A-Team up north or 4 days... that beef pales in comparison to Arya being able to look and sound like Walder Frey, killing his entire family.
IMO, of course.
It isn't just 1 instance though, that's our point (or atleast mine). In the early seasons everything was well explained and plausible as it pertains to the world that was created. Lately, it's all been out of whack and it's very noticeable. There's some people here who will have an answer for anything because no one dare say a bad word about GoT, and others that are more critical. I think it's fine to take either stance but blaming it on it being a fantasy series is such a tiresome and frankly cheap argument. By that logic the Walking Deads stupid plots should just be ok with everyone, since hey, it's zombies man.
this series was compelling enough just dealing with the battle for the iron throne ... without all the supernatural shit going on.
but caring about whether it would take Dany 2 days to find the A-Team up north or 4 days... that beef pales in comparison to Arya being able to look and sound like Walder Frey, killing his entire family.
IMO, of course.
It isn't just 1 instance though, that's our point (or atleast mine). In the early seasons everything was well explained and plausible as it pertains to the world that was created. Lately, it's all been out of whack and it's very noticeable. There's some people here who will have an answer for anything because no one dare say a bad word about GoT, and others that are more critical. I think it's fine to take either stance but blaming it on it being a fantasy series is such a tiresome and frankly cheap argument. By that logic the Walking Deads stupid plots should just be ok with everyone, since hey, it's zombies man.
The series has ALWAYS had a level of absurdity about it due to the fact that they're forced to include all of the supernatural stuff that is in the books. It just hasn't been as noticeable until now because much of it, even including the dragons, was placed to the side to focus on the more character-centric storylines.
But eventually they had to address the "magical" stuff to move the overall story to it's conclusion, and there really is no neat way they could have done it to make it seamless and sensisical - some of us excepted this from the very beginning, but obviously some are getting caught off guard by it.
Regardless the show writers shouldn't be killed for a few plot holes - the source material is just too difficult to translate perfectly to a 1 hour weekly program. However, what they've been able to do up to this point is remarkable and I feel like a lot of people are going to ruin the ride for themselves if they continue to focus in on relatively small plot deficiencies.
it's been happening for a while now, and not just the magical stuff. It's no coincidence the writing became starkly different once they passed the books. Like I said if it doesn't bother you that's great, but I think it's a legitimate gripe that takes away from my enjoyment. Doesn't mean I hate it, but I don't like it as much as I used to and the writing is the main reason. I also always found the lesser plotlines more interesting which are now completely phased out since there's no time left. That's the nature of a series coming to an end, I can certainly admit that.
I don't have time to read this gigantic thread now.
But while I thought that this episode was an impressive production (especially for TV), I wasn't all that impressed with the narrative. You can really tell that the show is no longer based on GRRM books and is written by TV writers now. Predictability. Cut corners. Plot points that don't really work upon deeper analysis.
And the pure drama is just misfiring for me, for whatever reason. For example, I really like Tormund. But during that scene where it looked like he was gonna be murdered, I didn't feel anything.
It does seem like Season 8 will be the war against the army of the dead. Which makes sense, because that can't be rushed.
And might I say that this "Bran as Night King" theory sucks Dothraki taint. I can't imagine that the show will do something so cheap and stupid. If it does, that would be a massive disappointment.
maybe because the whole reason they went north of the wall is dumb.
I don't get why it takes the wights so damn long to kill someone. Tormund had a ton of them on top of him but somehow none of them stabbed, slashed, or bit him. He should have died and it would have been a good death. Thoros being the only death was weak especially knowing the red woman is still alive which means there's still a small chance Beric can continue being Beric. Now that they have to fight a war I don't even think Jons promise to kill Melissandre will even come into play, he needs her now (presumably with Beric still alive).
The way to make any fantasy or sci fi world believable is by Â
having the internal rules of the world make sense. So sure, there were dragons and resurrections and other stuff, but Martin, in particular, was careful about the movements of armies and traveling in general. The fact that the show has played fast and loose with that (starting with, Surprise! The lannisters moved their whole army and no one noticed) after being so careful for so long is what's hard now.
"2. "No Time" for Benjen to also hop on a horse?" Â
ha. Exactly. I get it that this guy wasn't exactly the most developed character, but come on. He was Ned Stark's brother and the time from his reunion with Jon to his death takes a grand total of like 15 seconds. WTF? Why not have him come upon Jon and his buddies earlier in the episode and hang out for a bit?
maybe because the whole reason they went north of the wall is dumb.
I don't get why it takes the wights so damn long to kill someone. Tormund had a ton of them on top of him but somehow none of them stabbed, slashed, or bit him. He should have died and it would have been a good death. Thoros being the only death was weak especially knowing the red woman is still alive which means there's still a small chance Beric can continue being Beric. Now that they have to fight a war I don't even think Jons promise to kill Melissandre will even come into play, he needs her now (presumably with Beric still alive).
Thoros survived a zombie polar bear gorging on his chest (and was even walking around!). He should have died then.
The show has been protecting its main characters and 1B characters for too long. And that's despite military battles with dragons and onslaughts from hordes of wights.
The sense of danger that this show used to have is gone. The suspense is low because the primary characters keep surviving everything.
And I agree with those who think that the Arya/Sansa feud is forced. It would seem pretty credible to me that Sansa was forced to write that letter. I don't see a legitimate reason why Arya's character should be taking the hard-ass stance she's taking now.
maybe she's setting up Littlefinger. I'm not sure what will happen this sunday night, but I'm hoping at the very least this Winterfell storyline ends one way or another. The whole Arya / Hannibal Lecter stuff is tiring.
The show has been protecting its main characters and 1B characters for too long. And that's despite military battles with dragons and onslaughts from hordes of wights.
The sense of danger that this show used to have is gone. The suspense is low because the primary characters keep surviving everything.
seeing a "Lord of the Rings" theme with the battle for Middle Earth developing. Humans and allies against the non humans...
Regardless one of the best stories I have ever read and shows I've ever seen.
and since teasers usually ... tease... the audience, i think we can now safely assume both Starks live. Now whether LF chokes on his own blood, we'll see.
Why do they need to convince Cersei? Who cares what she thinks? Even if Cersei believed in it, Dany just decimated her army. So what help is she going to be anyway? I don't understand the point of this plot. There was no reason for these people to be North of the Wall looking for a Wight. It was nonsense designed to kill a dragon and give it to the White Walkers. Simple as that.
It's likely this happens in the books in a radically different way and they needed to get the adaptation to match up with that coming pot point. Okay, fine. But if they're not going to do it the way George RR Martin is planning to do it, you mean to tell me professional writers doing the adaptation couldn't come up with another and more believable way to achieve that?
Fire & Ice!
can someone post the link for a direct stream which wont require signing up?
can someone post the link for a direct stream which wont require signing up?
google 123movies and you should be able to find it fairly easily. The stream I saw, the audio got a bit out of sync in the second half, almost like old dubbed kung-fu movies, but I didn't even care.
Watching the snow & ice explode up in the air with the fire looked so freaking badass.
can someone post the link for a direct stream which wont require signing up?
Danny, if you don't have a jailbroken Amazon firestick and don't want to go online to download the episode, I'd say your best chances to see majority of the episode would be on YouTube. Just search for "Game of Thrones 7x06" and you'll see several scenes already uploaded. Although with this option, most all the feeds won't be HD and you'll have to watch 8-10 different video clips before HBO's lawyers force YouTube to take them down.
Personally, I'd rather download the episode in HD and watch it that way but if you want to avoid that hassle and avoid possible virus to infect your PC, go the YouTube route.
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How F'n cool was it for the Night King to bring Viserion back to life and create an Ice Dragon!!!
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How F'n cool was it for the Night King to bring Viserion back to life and create an Ice Dragon!!!
Everything with the dragons looked awesome. The best I think they've looked in the entire series. The way Viserion slips into the water or how Ice King's ice bolt explodes and Viserion's ribs are exposed, on fire and blood pouring out of him. And the freaking Polar Bear! That shit looked awesome!
Littlefinger's plan worked perfectly, it'll almost be too easy for him to now manipulate Sansa. Especially since Arya already threatened to kill her and Sansa is scared of her.
If I'm Sansa, I'd want to distance myself from all her siblings. She never was close to Jon and want the North to herself. Bran freaks her out and has seen everything that Ramsey Bolton did to her. Then you have Arya whose a trained assassin now and just threatened your life. That warm family reunion hasn't worked out all too well for her.
One is an extreme version of her father and the other is an extreme version of her mother now. Then add in all of their exposure to the experiences over the years and the things they learned and from who, this beef was inevitable.
I like Sansa's procession over the years and really liked her development.
On the other hand, while I think Arya kicks ass but she is emotionally stunted and still acts like a little kid. Which is why I think Littlefinger will be able to get an upper hand on her and be able to manipulate both sisters against each other.
were*
Same here, Jon wants to. I thought Dany was going to jump Jon the second he called her his "Queen". She definitly got teary eyed and even thought about it. Dany tried to pull away her hand at first but Jon wouldn't let her go. Then Dany told him to rest up and get some sleep before she finally pulled her hand away. Great scene!
It's getting a bit creepy, but I think Dany saw something she needed to see from Jon. She's always been a powerful character and has never really needed to be in a position of sacrifice. Seeing Jon's willingness to sacrifice himself, then seeing the scar above his heart, seemed to humbled her. Her asking Jon if she deserves the position of Queen seems like a good step for her going forward.
LOL. pretty much
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I thought Dany and Jon where going to fuck at the end.
It's getting a bit creepy, but I think Dany saw something she needed to see from Jon. She's always been a powerful character and has never really needed to be in a position of sacrifice. Seeing Jon's willingness to sacrifice himself, then seeing the scar above his heart, seemed to humbled her. Her asking Jon if she deserves the position of Queen seems like a good step for her going forward.
I'm beyond the creepy part, it's not brother\sister relationship like Jaime and Cersei. Plus for hundred of years Targaryen's have been marrying off siblings or pure 100% Targaryen first cousins.
Jon being half Stark, in this fantasy world, doesn't seem as creepy with Dany being his aunt. Plus Dany already told Jon that she can't have any more children, I think the writers purposely put that line in to setup the audience for their future relationship.
Although if Dany can't have any children, it would be interesting to know how they'd handle the progression of the crown if\when Dany become Queen and then dies years later without a natural heir to inherit the crown and kingdom.
If you look at maps of Westeros, Dragonstone is about halfway mark between the Wall and Dorne. So those ravens had to fly pretty quickly to cover almost half the continent.
TAKE THAT TO THE BANK - Jon and Dany's child will rule the 7 kingdoms and break the wheel of tyrants and mass murder. Everything else in this story is now secondary.
IMO of course.
Link - ( New Window )
Link - ( New Window )
the ending was just wow
Although I wonder does a zombie dragon shoot fire or ice?
1 minor criticism - the winterfell stuff is annoying. Bran conveniently missing in action again as his sisters continue to turn on each other and now also a major strategic decision comes up? He had time to tell Jon to go to east watch, but not enough time to tell his sisters Littlefinger is up to the same tricks that basically butchered half their family? Given that we already know Bran is onto Littlefinger I expect it's just misdirection leading up to the finale, but if it's not it's pretty weak.
Maybe Brienne can move in with them, a different twist on Three's Company,
I saw it on my firestick
I posted two good links on the non spoiler thread and also posted instructions on how to watch it on your HDTV. Whole process to get it on my HDTV took only 10-15 minutes.
Very good question, will the zombie dragon breath fire or ice. If they follow Martin's other non-GoT books, Ice Dragons breath ice and magical get their size increased to almost double the size of a firebreathing dragon.
Sansa done fucked up, makes me wonder if she is planning something and needed to Brienne out of the way since Brienne is sworn to protect both Stark girls.
Are we going to see Clegane bowl after all?
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the captured wight to King's Landing since he was the one loading it on the boat. So hopefully him & Brienne will have a nice reunion.
Are we going to see Clegane bowl after all?
I'd lean towards yes, just because you know Cersei can't ever be cool. She's certainly planning something.
It actually winds up explaining a lot of things. Explains why the Night King was able to enter Bran's vision and physically interact with him, explains why the Night King is so pissed at the Children of the Forest and wants to kill them, explains why he seems to recognize Jon Snow, explains the line "you will fly" as he now has a dragon, and there's been a theory for a long time that all those Wights are is super warged beings being warged by the Night King all at once. They just gave a hint in episode 5 Bran has this ability as he warged all those ravens simultaneously.
It kind of does all fit.
Something about his ability to see through time and him attempting to warg into the man(old Stark ancestor/first men I believe) who eventually becomes the Night King (created by the Children of the Forest) to prevent the creation and becoming trapped when the dude turns. If that is what ends up happening, I'm guessing Bran will stay permanently "warged", kinda like Hodor stayed permanently holding the door.
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In comment 13563067 Motley Two said:
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the captured wight to King's Landing since he was the one loading it on the boat. So hopefully him & Brienne will have a nice reunion.
Are we going to see Clegane bowl after all?
I'd lean towards yes, just because you know Cersei can't ever be cool. She's certainly planning something.
She doesn't know the Hound is coming. As far as I can tell King's Landing hasn't been informed of the plan to bring a weight to them.
She doesn't know the Hound is coming. As far as I can tell King's Landing hasn't been informed of the plan to bring a weight to them.
Cersei knows the plan, Jaime and Tyrion came to a proposed truce for both their queen's. Jaime even told Cersei in episode S7E5 that "Tyrion said he will bring proof" of the zombies.
My guess is the Hound will make the delivery, show them the proof but still get arrested. Remember he abandoned his post with the Lannister's but the Hound will demand a Trial by Combat to determine his fate. Cersei's champion should be the zombie Mountain and we should finally get the Clegane Bowl that's been long rumored.
Plus when I mention zombie Mountain, I'm guessing that the Mountain is half dead\half alive, similar to the way Uncle Benjen was.
We talked about it in the other GoT thread but here are the highlights about want we discussed there...
* There's an interesting theory that leads to Bran being the Night King. So the theory states he goes back to the moment the night king was created, wargs into the man.... tries to explain what will happen and why they shouldn't do this... they call bull shit and do it anyways leaving bran as the night king.
* That would also make a lot of sense. It's seems like the Night King has always been one step ahead of Bran in their visions. So this theory would help prove that since the Night King would always know what to expect since he first lived those experiences as Bran and always know a counter for all of Bran's moves.
* Plus also explain how in episode 6x05 Meera was able to drag Bran away without getting caught by all the Night Kings wrights. I know that Hodor and Uncle Benjen helped but if this theory is correct, the Night King would want Meera to get away and help Bran cross the Wall or he'd never exist.
* Not to even mention why the Night King has always looked at Jon with a special interest. If it is Bran, then of course he'd look with interest with what Jon is doing since it is his brother/cousin.
* The fact Old Nan told him the Night's King name is Brandon Stark can't be merely coincidental. Or could it?
* Plus the old Three Eyed Raven mentioned to Bran that he'd wouldn't walk again (In Bran's old crippled body) but that he would fly. Most thought this meant warging into birds or one of the dragons. Although now that the Night King has his very own dragon, if Bran is the Night King, he will be able to fly now.
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She doesn't know the Hound is coming. As far as I can tell King's Landing hasn't been informed of the plan to bring a weight to them.
Cersei knows the plan, Jaime and Tyrion came to a proposed truce for both their queen's. Jaime even told Cersei in episode S7E5 that "Tyrion said he will bring proof" of the zombies.
My guess is the Hound will make the delivery, show them the proof but still get arrested. Remember he abandoned his post with the Lannister's but the Hound will demand a Trial by Combat to determine his fate. Cersei's champion should be the zombie Mountain and we should finally get the Clegane Bowl that's been long rumored.
Plus when I mention zombie Mountain, I'm guessing that the Mountain is half dead\half alive, similar to the way Uncle Benjen was.
I think Benjen's deal is different. Injured & infected with whatever magic that makes the White Walkers go. Wasn't he basically confined to the North of The Wall? Couldn't return if he wanted?
The Mountain is some straight Frankenstein shit.
I think he knew how powerful Bran's abilities are and knew what would eventually happen. I'm guessing he was always so eager to find Bran to help train him for a longer period of time to prevent him from being the Night King. Then Bran didn't listen to him and got marked by the Night King and cut down the time the old Three Eyed Raven had to train Bran.
If this theory is true, knowing he'd die soon, I don't think it was an accident that in their last vision together, the Three Eyed Raven took Bran back in time to Winterfell and showed Bran a cruel example of what would happen if he left his powers unchecked and warged into a person, while using greensight. The way Bran neutered Hodor in that way, I'm sure the Three Eyed Raven was hoping that example would prevent Bran from doing it again. Which would prevent him from eventually becoming the Night King.
Again, I don't think it was an accident that the Three Eyed Raven choose to show Bran that right before he died.
I think Benjen's deal is different. Injured & infected with whatever magic that makes the White Walkers go. Wasn't he basically confined to the North of The Wall? Couldn't return if he wanted?
The Mountain is some straight Frankenstein shit.
I don't think they're that far apart. Qyburn was always interested in learning about topics that got him kicked out of the Citadel with human experiments. We know the maesters at the Citadel weren't fond of magic and maybe Qyburn found some old manuscripts that showed how to do magic to re-animated the dead (Similar to the magic that the Children did to re-animate Benjen after he died, so that he'd fight for the side of the living).
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Need an explanation.
We talked about it in the other GoT thread but here are the highlights about want we discussed there...
* There's an interesting theory that leads to Bran being the Night King. So the theory states he goes back to the moment the night king was created, wargs into the man.... tries to explain what will happen and why they shouldn't do this... they call bull shit and do it anyways leaving bran as the night king.
* That would also make a lot of sense. It's seems like the Night King has always been one step ahead of Bran in their visions. So this theory would help prove that since the Night King would always know what to expect since he first lived those experiences as Bran and always know a counter for all of Bran's moves.
* Plus also explain how in episode 6x05 Meera was able to drag Bran away without getting caught by all the Night Kings wrights. I know that Hodor and Uncle Benjen helped but if this theory is correct, the Night King would want Meera to get away and help Bran cross the Wall or he'd never exist.
* Not to even mention why the Night King has always looked at Jon with a special interest. If it is Bran, then of course he'd look with interest with what Jon is doing since it is his brother/cousin.
* The fact Old Nan told him the Night's King name is Brandon Stark can't be merely coincidental. Or could it?
* Plus the old Three Eyed Raven mentioned to Bran that he'd wouldn't walk again (In Bran's old crippled body) but that he would fly. Most thought this meant warging into birds or one of the dragons. Although now that the Night King has his very own dragon, if Bran is the Night King, he will be able to fly now.
This doesn't make sense to me. Bran seems like a good dude. His conscience gets trapped inside of the Night King and he just immediately decides "f*** it, now that I'm the Night King I'm killing all the humans?" The animosity towards the Children makes sense, but not the humans.
Then factor in, if the theory is true, that the Night King has been around since the First Men for thousands of years and has constantly been at war with the humans.
You don't think a good dude like Bran can go crazy over thousands of years battling the humans non-stop?
Current day Bran seems like a good dude, although a lot more cold and distant from the rest of humanity (his sisters and Meera) since becoming the Night King.
Meant to say since becoming the new Three Eyed Raven.
Then factor in, if the theory is true, that the Night King has been around since the First Men for thousands of years and has constantly been at war with the humans.
You don't think a good dude like Bran can go crazy over thousands of years battling the humans non-stop?
When Bran first wargs into the Night King, he has no experience being Night King. If he still had any consciousness at that point he could refuse to kill humans. If he had 0 consciousness then I don't find any of this all that interesting, I guess; just one big repeatable loop over and over. (Which is really the problem in any time-travel show; I hope Martin figured out something smarter than that.)
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I can't find it online
I posted two good links on the non spoiler thread and also posted instructions on how to watch it on your HDTV. Whole process to get it on my HDTV took only 10-15 minutes.
Has to be. Littlefinger is playing them. If she's worried about Arya doing something to her, she'd want Brienne there, but if she's thinking about doing something to Arya, she'd want Brienne out of the way.
Maybe Bran can intervene, but he doesn't really seem to emotionally invested these day.
The strength of the show, story-wise, is still south of the wall, where there are sympathetic characters on both sides of the war. That could change, though, when we get the full story of the Night's King and he's more than just a scary dude with a zombie army and an ice dragon.
Lol, ya think?
Or does he become a Walker and the "ice dragon"?
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He was pulled from the ice and his eye opened. Does he come back from the dead?
Or does he become a Walker and the "ice dragon"?
Dragon's eye turned blue. He's a bad guy now. That was as about as predictable as it comes.
1. They're walking for miles, then Gendry makes it to the wall in 25 minutes?
2. "No Time" for Benjen to also hop on a horse?
3. Arya and Sansa thing. Everyone knew immediately in season 1 (or 2?) that the Queen was forcing her to write that. Also, why did she send Brienne away? And why is she trusting Littlefinger?
4. Why did the Night King aim for the flying dragon instead of Drogon who wasjust sitting there?
5. Jon screams "fall back." Fall back to what? They're on an island. And, if they could 'fall back' why didn't they do that right away?
6. Where'd the second dragon go?
Personally, I think either Littlefinger is being set up by one or both of the Stark girls, or his plan will be foiled another way - possibly by Bran. Arya might be testing Sansa, but I don't believe Arya will fall completely for Baelish's scheme.
1. They're walking for miles, then Gendry makes it to the wall in 25 minutes?
2. "No Time" for Benjen to also hop on a horse?
3. Arya and Sansa thing. Everyone knew immediately in season 1 (or 2?) that the Queen was forcing her to write that. Also, why did she send Brienne away? And why is she trusting Littlefinger?
4. Why did the Night King aim for the flying dragon instead of Drogon who wasjust sitting there?
5. Jon screams "fall back." Fall back to what? They're on an island. And, if they could 'fall back' why didn't they do that right away?
6. Where'd the second dragon go?
It's just you.
1.) More time passed than 25 minutes. At least a day.
2.) It would have slowed them down. Benjen also wanted to die, he was half zombie living in a horrid state. His only mission was to take down more zombies.
3.) She sent Brianne because she does not trust Cersei enough to be around her (smart). She knows Littlefinger is after her and the throne so she can use that to her advantage.
4.) The flying dragon was circling around and coming toward him at the time he threw the arrow.
5.) The island had a little hill that went about 20 feet up. He was telling them to fall back to the top of the ridge of it to get a better advantage as a "last resort".
6.) The second dragon was shown multiple times. He was flying in the air when Viserys got shot down and he howled when it happened. He was shown flying over the wall at the end.
This reminds me of when arya got stabbed. Everyone was saying back then there must be some plan, or it wasn't really her, or this, or that... And it turned out she just got stabbed and then healed.
1. They're walking for miles, then Gendry makes it to the wall in 25 minutes?
2. "No Time" for Benjen to also hop on a horse?
3. Arya and Sansa thing. Everyone knew immediately in season 1 (or 2?) that the Queen was forcing her to write that. Also, why did she send Brienne away? And why is she trusting Littlefinger?
4. Why did the Night King aim for the flying dragon instead of Drogon who wasjust sitting there?
5. Jon screams "fall back." Fall back to what? They're on an island. And, if they could 'fall back' why didn't they do that right away?
6. Where'd the second dragon go?
1. The amount of time that elapses is always difficult to tell on this show - best not to think too hard about it.
2. Benjen has been half dead and roaming behind the wall for some time now. I think he felt it was finally his time to go.
3. As Arya explained, she felt that even though she was forced to write the letter it was still a betrayal of their father. And it adds to her suspicion that all Sansa ever cared about is being queen, even in spite of her family.
Brienne was sent away because Sansa doesn't trust that Cersei won't try to kill her if she goes. Also possibly to have no one preclude her from harming Arya if she decides that is necessary.
Sansa probably doesn't fully trust little finger, but at this point without Jon there, and Bran being a dick, she has no one else to confide in for important matters.
4. Either to show off, or because the dragon in the air would be in better position to retaliate if he instead killed the Dragon on the ground.
5. The lake became more frozen than it was previously allowing them to walk and run on it. Although they did seem surrounded, so not sure where they had space to go.
6. It did seem like one disappeared. But it became irrelevant after the night king took one down - Dany wasn't gonna have her dragons stick around any longer.
But, the whole plot from last episode was so dumb (bringing back a white walker? really?) and its bleeding into this episode.
But, the whole plot from last episode was so dumb (bringing back a white walker? really?) and its bleeding into this episode.
I agree with you there but most of your questions tonight can be easily explained. In fact, they showed all 3 dragons quite a bit.
But, the whole plot from last episode was so dumb (bringing back a white walker? really?) and its bleeding into this episode.
It was dumb - really from the beginning it's been a challenge for the writers to include the wight walkers into the show in a way that makes sense. But the last two episodes did serve the purpose of making clear what the stakes are and forging important relationships that will be key later on.
And while it was a little convenient to have a few nondescript wildlings get sacrificed against the army of the dead, i liked the magnificent seven so much I'm glad only Thoros bought it
Was surprised at first the Hound didn't stay with Beric, but of course his destiny is likely still to face his brother. About time he returned to the south part of the story
Cool to see Benjen/Coldhands make one final appearance, but I was also hoping Jon would end up riding the second dragon to safety...will have to wait to see if that happens
And when oh when will Bran get the chance to throw a little family weirdness into the Jon and Daenerys love story
At this point I've stopped getting worked up about the points of weak writing or time travel - it was always going to be hard to write this story to a satisfying conclusion, they're setting it all up as well as they can
Yeah. Sam actually confirmed it had been "years" since Season 4 a couple episodes back.
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Had this conversation with a friend - I think some peoples angst comes bc in earlier seasons, planned travel took longer and a lot of events happened along the way that changed the story - like Catelyn running into Tyrion and having him taken prisoner. Or, Arya and the Hound, or Jamie and Brienne traveling together for several episodes. Or we had plot lines like Robb taking half a season to fall in love while his army was camped.
To your point, now that the show is nearing its conclusion, the writers obviously have to deliver on the major events, like those we've seen this season. They can't include 3-4 episodes of character development anymore. And I've seen and read enough interviews with the writers and producers to appreciate the scope and scale of the production - almost every episode is a short feature film now in terms of production size.
The writers are including things to show time passing - like Gilly's little boy being clearly older last episode, or showing night time and then daylight to show a day had passed while Gendry traveled.
And no, its not perfect. There will always be nitpicky things but the sum is so much greater than the parts they can easily be overlooked IMO.
I mean this reviewer is seriously questioning where the white walkers got those chains from? Seriously? Who gives a fuck?
1. They're walking for miles, then Gendry makes it to the wall in 25 minutes?
2. "No Time" for Benjen to also hop on a horse?
3. Arya and Sansa thing. Everyone knew immediately in season 1 (or 2?) that the Queen was forcing her to write that. Also, why did she send Brienne away? And why is she trusting Littlefinger?
4. Why did the Night King aim for the flying dragon instead of Drogon who wasjust sitting there?
5. Jon screams "fall back." Fall back to what? They're on an island. And, if they could 'fall back' why didn't they do that right away?
6. Where'd the second dragon go?
Amen. Lots to love but these really bugged me.
How a smith from King's Landing navigated in the snowy tundra is another matter. But hey, it's a show about dragons.
Gendry - Rowing, no medals
Gendry - Running, Gold
You're confusing time passing off screen and the concept of making it reasonable with what you show on screen.
In this case there is no reasonable way to account for time elapsed and the distance traveled. They spent roughly a day traveling beyond the wall. From the time the gang gets surrounded by the undead at the end of their day and when they wake up the next morning, we are asked to believe that
1. Gendry ran all the way back to where they started.
2. A raven flew the entire length of the continent
3. Dany flew the length of the continent with her dragons
You can make that somewhat believable by stretching the timeline a few days. Have the gang on the run, hiding, etc. It would not have been hard to write something like that and arrive at the same result.
But, the whole plot from last episode was so dumb (bringing back a white walker? really?) and its bleeding into this episode.
Not a white walker, a wight. I didn't have an issue with that plot point.
But the raven flying as fast as an airplane? OK.
Speeding up plotlines is fine, when executed well. The Gendry/Raven thing was handled poorly, same as Jamie escaping by swimming like Tully with a full suit of golden armor.
The highlight for me were the panning shots of Jon and Co trekking north. Simply gorgeous. Also liked the exchanges between each character during their march. Thought the Sansa/Arya stuff was interesting, but I doubt it will amount to a falling out and betrayal.
A dragon dying had to happen. There's only so many times they can show Dany showing up with 3 dragons to save the day. There needs to be some realistic adversity and now that will happen.
The time thing defies any explanation even beyond mere television. And to be honest, it just makes the show look stupid. Gendry has to run to eastwatch, the ravens have to get to Dragonstone, Danys has to bicker with Tyrion and fly North of the Wall all while the wights hang out on the periphery of a pond and 7 guys sit on a hill just waiting. Besides the fact that they all would have died of exposure, it makes me wonder why Danys just didn't do commando raids from Slavers Bay into Kings Landing. War...and books...over...in fifteen minutes.
These dead getting killed by swords mystifies me. The took a sword as a person, died, got reanimated and a stab kills them again. And, apparently they drown too. Didn't they ever watch Pirates? Walk under the lake onto the hill where Jon was.
They repeated the Jamie in the river trick in back to back episodes. And, it didn't get any more believable with Jon. I'll bet Leo wishes he had Jon's resistance to ice cold water; he'd be hanging out with Kate Winslet today.
I'm sorry, but the Bejen part was the worst part for me. The utter stupid convenience of it all.
A close second was Arya just leaving faces hanging around. Heck, Littlefinger did a better job of hiding the note and he *wanted* Arya to find it.
I'm a little surprised that Bran had more face time when he was learning to be a tree than when hanging out with family. I know that he's not Bran any more but you would think they would want to say hi to him, have breakfast and stuff together. If he does intend to tell people what's going on, you would think he would put himself in a position to actually do it.
The time thing defies any explanation even beyond mere television. And to be honest, it just makes the show look stupid. Gendry has to run to eastwatch, the ravens have to get to Dragonstone, Danys has to bicker with Tyrion and fly North of the Wall all while the wights hang out on the periphery of a pond and 7 guys sit on a hill just waiting. Besides the fact that they all would have died of exposure, it makes me wonder why Danys just didn't do commando raids from Slavers Bay into Kings Landing. War...and books...over...in fifteen minutes.
These dead getting killed by swords mystifies me. The took a sword as a person, died, got reanimated and a stab kills them again. And, apparently they drown too. Didn't they ever watch Pirates? Walk under the lake onto the hill where Jon was.
They repeated the Jamie in the river trick in back to back episodes. And, it didn't get any more believable with Jon. I'll bet Leo wishes he had Jon's resistance to ice cold water; he'd be hanging out with Kate Winslet today.
I'm sorry, but the Bejen part was the worst part for me. The utter stupid convenience of it all.
A close second was Arya just leaving faces hanging around. Heck, Littlefinger did a better job of hiding the note and he *wanted* Arya to find it.
I'm a little surprised that Bran had more face time when he was learning to be a tree than when hanging out with family. I know that he's not Bran any more but you would think they would want to say hi to him, have breakfast and stuff together. If he does intend to tell people what's going on, you would think he would put himself in a position to actually do it.
FYI - The White Walkers arent being killed by just any sword - Longclaw is made of Valyrian Steel (which is said to be forged by Dragon fire). Regular swords don't have the same effect.
the Raven/Dany's arrival being the biggest. So Jon and his crew are surrounded by the Night's King army, then Gendry runs back to Eastwatch, then they have a Maester send a raven, then Dany gets the raven, then she decides to go save them and they're still on that rock. I get it's a fiction/fantasy story, but I just feel like the book will do that plot much more justice if it's even remotely similar in the book.
No food, freezing cold, and they're still hanging in when dany arrives.
And I didn't realize Arya actually had to already have the faces in her possession before she can assume that person's identity, no clue why i thought it was a warg type thing. It would have been cool if they showed a new face of someone she hadn't used yet. Unless she has more faces like Tommen or Joffrey or her father or mother, I don't see her heading back to Braavos to pick up a new face.
I found the thread you posted with this image: http://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=543747 no one was mocking you here at least. Regardless, it wasn't an official poster for the season and was clearly fan made. HBO wouldn't put that big of a spoiler in a promotional image for the season.
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"poster" or one actually pretty similar I posted in April and was mocked by many of you for posting a "fan boy" poster not an official poster is more real than many of you (or I) knew.
I found the thread you posted with this image: http://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=543747 no one was mocking you here at least. Regardless, it wasn't an official poster for the season and was clearly fan made. HBO wouldn't put that big of a spoiler in a promotional image for the season.
Maybe mocked was a bit of an exaggeration, LOL. but it seems like it was spot-on, official or not. Shit has been leaking on this show the past couple seasons (at least).
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I think that they are really just writing a tv show now and not GoT.
The time thing defies any explanation even beyond mere television. And to be honest, it just makes the show look stupid. Gendry has to run to eastwatch, the ravens have to get to Dragonstone, Danys has to bicker with Tyrion and fly North of the Wall all while the wights hang out on the periphery of a pond and 7 guys sit on a hill just waiting. Besides the fact that they all would have died of exposure, it makes me wonder why Danys just didn't do commando raids from Slavers Bay into Kings Landing. War...and books...over...in fifteen minutes.
These dead getting killed by swords mystifies me. The took a sword as a person, died, got reanimated and a stab kills them again. And, apparently they drown too. Didn't they ever watch Pirates? Walk under the lake onto the hill where Jon was.
They repeated the Jamie in the river trick in back to back episodes. And, it didn't get any more believable with Jon. I'll bet Leo wishes he had Jon's resistance to ice cold water; he'd be hanging out with Kate Winslet today.
I'm sorry, but the Bejen part was the worst part for me. The utter stupid convenience of it all.
A close second was Arya just leaving faces hanging around. Heck, Littlefinger did a better job of hiding the note and he *wanted* Arya to find it.
I'm a little surprised that Bran had more face time when he was learning to be a tree than when hanging out with family. I know that he's not Bran any more but you would think they would want to say hi to him, have breakfast and stuff together. If he does intend to tell people what's going on, you would think he would put himself in a position to actually do it.
FYI - The White Walkers arent being killed by just any sword - Longclaw is made of Valyrian Steel (which is said to be forged by Dragon fire). Regular swords don't have the same effect.
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In comment 13566493 Bill L said:
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I think that they are really just writing a tv show now and not GoT.
The time thing defies any explanation even beyond mere television. And to be honest, it just makes the show look stupid. Gendry has to run to eastwatch, the ravens have to get to Dragonstone, Danys has to bicker with Tyrion and fly North of the Wall all while the wights hang out on the periphery of a pond and 7 guys sit on a hill just waiting. Besides the fact that they all would have died of exposure, it makes me wonder why Danys just didn't do commando raids from Slavers Bay into Kings Landing. War...and books...over...in fifteen minutes.
These dead getting killed by swords mystifies me. The took a sword as a person, died, got reanimated and a stab kills them again. And, apparently they drown too. Didn't they ever watch Pirates? Walk under the lake onto the hill where Jon was.
They repeated the Jamie in the river trick in back to back episodes. And, it didn't get any more believable with Jon. I'll bet Leo wishes he had Jon's resistance to ice cold water; he'd be hanging out with Kate Winslet today.
I'm sorry, but the Bejen part was the worst part for me. The utter stupid convenience of it all.
A close second was Arya just leaving faces hanging around. Heck, Littlefinger did a better job of hiding the note and he *wanted* Arya to find it.
I'm a little surprised that Bran had more face time when he was learning to be a tree than when hanging out with family. I know that he's not Bran any more but you would think they would want to say hi to him, have breakfast and stuff together. If he does intend to tell people what's going on, you would think he would put himself in a position to actually do it.
FYI - The White Walkers arent being killed by just any sword - Longclaw is made of Valyrian Steel (which is said to be forged by Dragon fire). Regular swords don't have the same effect.
Yeah, but the wights were getting re-killed by regular stuff, which was my point.
Ah, sorry. Suppose you're right there. That said, if the body of a wight isn't burned I'm pretty sure the NK can just raise them again so I don't think they really stay dead.
Pretty sure Beric was still there at the end, think it was only Thoros
Just another anonymous wilding.
Thoros died in his sleep
For all saying Bran is the night king, i get why that can make some sense - but the prophecy said he would never walk again, but he would fly.
If he's now flying on dragons + raven stuff... why doesnt the Night King's walking count? (not to mention his gold medal Javelin skills)
Gendry - Rowing, no medals
Gendry - Running, Gold
LOL, this was good. We might want to add:
Jaime - 1500m freestyle, Gold
Mountain - Weightlifting, Gold
Ygritte - Archery (took 5-6 shots at Jon) - No medals
Ramsey - Archery, Gold
For instance, not saying I want Jon to die but even when he goes into the water, we know he's making it out somehow. I'm not asking for another Red Wedding, it' a different show than it was then, but some middle ground would be nice.
I can suspend some disbelief when it comes to the ravens, time, distances traveled. But it's just a touch to predictable right now.
Still though, the action itself is unbelievable to watch. No show can do what this one is capable of.
saving it for the dragon?
he had a 10,000 strong army standing on one side of an unfrozen lake waiting for it to freeze and he could have been just chucking javelins at them picking them off one by one.
Bran may be the Night's King, but if he is then killing himself should end the whole army, since by killing the Night's King all the Wights he brought back die too, which through connections to the other white walkers, is probably everyone.
saving it for the dragon?
he had a 10,000 strong army standing on one side of an unfrozen lake waiting for it to freeze and he could have been just chucking javelins at them picking them off one by one.
Bran may be the Night's King, but if he is then killing himself should end the whole army, since by killing the Night's King all the Wights he brought back die too, which through connections to the other white walkers, is probably everyone.
It didn't look like they had that many javelins and the a-team was going to be toast pretty easily if the ice hadn't broken and the dragons didn't show up, so he didn't really need to use them until it was too late.
saving it for the dragon?
he had a 10,000 strong army standing on one side of an unfrozen lake waiting for it to freeze and he could have been just chucking javelins at them picking them off one by one.
Bran may be the Night's King, but if he is then killing himself should end the whole army, since by killing the Night's King all the Wights he brought back die too, which through connections to the other white walkers, is probably everyone.
To me, it seemed likt the NK was waiting for the dragons to arrive. The entire thing reeked of a trap to me. The NK is likely a greenseer himself, giving him the ability to see ahead. He was also aware of Bran when Bran tried to tap in and find him, thus marking Bran and breaking the magic.
A part of me thinks the reason why the one wight they captured didn't explode when Jon struck the head white walker was so that the NK would have a wight south of the Wall. Perhaps this breaks the magic that prevents the WW from breaking through?
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Need an explanation.
We talked about it in the other GoT thread but here are the highlights about want we discussed there...
* There's an interesting theory that leads to Bran being the Night King. So the theory states he goes back to the moment the night king was created, wargs into the man.... tries to explain what will happen and why they shouldn't do this... they call bull shit and do it anyways leaving bran as the night king.
* That would also make a lot of sense. It's seems like the Night King has always been one step ahead of Bran in their visions. So this theory would help prove that since the Night King would always know what to expect since he first lived those experiences as Bran and always know a counter for all of Bran's moves.
* Plus also explain how in episode 6x05 Meera was able to drag Bran away without getting caught by all the Night Kings wrights. I know that Hodor and Uncle Benjen helped but if this theory is correct, the Night King would want Meera to get away and help Bran cross the Wall or he'd never exist.
* Not to even mention why the Night King has always looked at Jon with a special interest. If it is Bran, then of course he'd look with interest with what Jon is doing since it is his brother/cousin.
* The fact Old Nan told him the Night's King name is Brandon Stark can't be merely coincidental. Or could it?
* Plus the old Three Eyed Raven mentioned to Bran that he'd wouldn't walk again (In Bran's old crippled body) but that he would fly. Most thought this meant warging into birds or one of the dragons. Although now that the Night King has his very own dragon, if Bran is the Night King, he will be able to fly now.
But the Night King can walk, so wouldn't that negate the 3 eyed raven's claim that "Bran wouldn't walk again"?
Bran warged into Hodor and "walked" so by that logic he has walked again, but him actually being the Night's King requires IMO more than waging into him.
I believe it's true and there is a lot of evidence in the show to suggest it that Bran is the Night King, and the reasons he "became the Night King" and why it won't accomplish what he feels it will accomplish.
I do think killing himself might kill the Night King.
A part of me thinks the reason why the one wight they captured didn't explode when Jon struck the head white walker was so that the NK would have a wight south of the Wall. Perhaps this breaks the magic that prevents the WW from breaking through?
Wights must be able to travel south of the wall otherwise Jon would never be able to bring one back in the first place. Also, wasn't there a wight brought back to Castle Black in the beginning of the series? So, that should have pierced the magic.
In the books, the spend a lot of time talking about the Horn of [Jericho] something which can bring the Wall down. I think that is a dropped plot point for the show. The Wall is ice; maybe you don't need Bran, maybe Vyserion can huff and puff and blow the Wall down?
Viewers have already seen that Bran has the capability to warg into someone's consciousness while visiting the past; this is what he was doing when he inadvertently broke Hodor's mind. What if Bran becomes so desperate (perhaps because he feels guilty for his part in letting the White Walkers through the Wall?) that he believes the only way he can help end the Great War is to go back in time and stop the Children from ever creating the Night King to begin with?
Of course, savvy fantasy fans know how these time travel plots usually work: history is written in ink, and anything you do to try and change it will only end up causing whatever happened in the first place. But Bran, frantic to rectify the mistake he made, might forget that simple fact. And if warging back 30 years was enough to break Hodor's mind, warging back thousands of years should be more than enough to break the mind of not just the man he's trying to save… but Bran's own mind as well.
With Bran's consciousness lost inside the Night King's mind — and with the Night King's mind shattered beyond any thought other than vengeance against the beings who created him as a weapon of war — the Stark and the White Walker would truly become one.
There's foreshadowing of this twist in the scene of the Night King's origin. Bran clenches his fist, as though in pain, just as the man is about to be stabbed. When he wakes up, Bran is lying against the tree in exactly the same position as the man in the vision. Bran's first words upon awakening are to tell Leaf, "It was you," as though part of him recognized the being who stabbed him thousands of years ago. And when he asks Leaf who the Children needed to defend themselves from, she responds, "From you."...
The First Men and Children of the Forrest were enemies at first, and the First Men almost wiped them all out. They were created in desperation to save themselves, which ultimately backfired.
The First Men and Children of the Forrest were enemies at first, and the First Men almost wiped them all out. They were created in desperation to save themselves, which ultimately backfired.
agree, changes nothing with the theory though
Its a fantasy tv show.. who cares about travel time. Just enjoy it..
I mean this reviewer is seriously questioning where the white walkers got those chains from? Seriously? Who gives a fuck?
Well, that reviewer probably has a distaste for overuse of Deus ex machina. The white walkers either fabricating or having the foresight to drag along big chains for dragon recovery purposes certainly counts as one.
Its a fantasy tv show.. who cares about travel time. Just enjoy it..
Yeah, but there are limits to which the "it's a fantasy tv show" dismissal should not apply. For example, if Euron's fleet of ships flew in to kidnap Jon Snow in the midst of the battle, you wouldn't just shrug and say, "Oh, ships fly now... awesome!"
The episode basically treated summoning a dragon attack like a Call of Duty airstrike perk, which makes me wonder why Highgarden didn't take advantage while being sacked.
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O.
I mean this reviewer is seriously questioning where the white walkers got those chains from? Seriously? Who gives a fuck?
Well, that reviewer probably has a distaste for overuse of Deus ex machina. The white walkers either fabricating or having the foresight to drag along big chains for dragon recovery purposes certainly counts as one.
Stick to those excellent reality TV programs and cartoons.
Another reviewer posed the question, which is funny when you think about it, is that if the dead wights are not impervious to water, drowning when they fall into the lake and dissolving to such an extent that they could drag Jon down, weaponless and all and yet only Jon survives, how did they get down there to wrap the chains around the dragon in the first place?
Not sure about the drowning part, but if the wights can't swim (plausible) then they would just sink to the bottom as bone is denser than water. Then walk? on the bottom to chain up the dragon. I doubt the night king would care about sacrificing a few to the bottom of the sea.
Another reviewer posed the question, which is funny when you think about it, is that if the dead wights are not impervious to water, drowning when they fall into the lake and dissolving to such an extent that they could drag Jon down, weaponless and all and yet only Jon survives, how did they get down there to wrap the chains around the dragon in the first place?
Yeah, it's totally stupid and ultimately lazy and thoughtless writing, meant only to deliver a dramatic "cliffhanger" during which the seemingly-lost dragon is -- surprise!!! -- recovered by the enemy. Like we didn't see that coming. Just have the dragon crash on land to spare us the embarrassing scene in the first place.
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I love the show and will watch it to the end.
But, the whole plot from last episode was so dumb (bringing back a white walker? really?) and its bleeding into this episode.
It was dumb - really from the beginning it's been a challenge for the writers to include the wight walkers into the show in a way that makes sense. But the last two episodes did serve the purpose of making clear what the stakes are and forging important relationships that will be key later on.
heres one
Its a fantasy tv show.. who cares about travel time. Just enjoy it..
Tolkein once wrote an essay about how even fantasy has to have some sort of logic to it, in order to be successful. You can push boundaries but you have to tread carefully about breaking physical laws,
One reviewer today wrote that the success of GoT to a large extent was that it wasn't LoTR and posited that to a large extent it now is becoming LoTR and that's not a satisfying thing.
We know where dragons came from and why.
We know how the Night's King and his army were created and why.
We know how Wight's are created and killed.
We do not know how Gendry can run from the other side of the wall all the way to eastwatch, have a Maester write a message, send a raven to dragonstone, have the raven get to dragonstone and deliver the message to Dany, who contemplates her next move, then decides to hop on her dragon and save the A-team while they've been waiting the whole time on an island surrounded by a frozen lake with no food or shelter.
There is nothing wrong with questioning things like this, and yet still loving the show.
and I seriously doubt the books follow the same plot, the pacing of the show seems to have well outpaced the book pace this whole season, if not sooner.
It was certainly gratifying to see the dragon emerge from nowhere just in the nick of time and roast the wights that were basically in mid-weapon swing in a "Fuck yeah!" sense, but I still had a sour taste in my mouth from observing a half dozen men tirelessly fend off several hundred skeletons by stabbing them with daggers.
I would imagine they brought food and water with them
We do not know how Gendry can run from the other side of the wall all the way to eastwatch, have a Maester write a message, send a raven to dragonstone, have the raven get to dragonstone and deliver the message to Dany, who contemplates her next move, then decides to hop on her dragon and save the A-team while they've been waiting the whole time on an island surrounded by a frozen lake with no food or shelter.
Right. If you know you're going to eventually need to write a scene in which Jon summons Dany hoping for immediate assistance, you'd have done your characters a service by presenting them as smart enough to anticipate such an event. Maybe have Dany station a dragon and/or herself a bit closer? Hell, maybe just do away with the whole ridiculous mission to kidnap a skeleton in the first place?
The panic that consumed the team as they were about to be approached by a large undead army suggested that no one considered that idea. For someone who will apparently be counted upon as a military strategist, Jon's execution and planning of the enterprise was stupid as hell. But it's the kind of stupidity you don't hold against the character, but the writers who conceive his actions in the first place.
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We do not know how Gendry can run from the other side of the wall all the way to eastwatch, have a Maester write a message, send a raven to dragonstone, have the raven get to dragonstone and deliver the message to Dany, who contemplates her next move, then decides to hop on her dragon and save the A-team while they've been waiting the whole time on an island surrounded by a frozen lake with no food or shelter.
Right. If you know you're going to eventually need to write a scene in which Jon summons Dany hoping for immediate assistance, you'd have done your characters a service by presenting them as smart enough to anticipate such an event. Maybe have Dany station a dragon and/or herself a bit closer? Hell, maybe just do away with the whole ridiculous mission to kidnap a skeleton in the first place?
The panic that consumed the team as they were about to be approached by a large undead army suggested that no one considered that idea. For someone who will apparently be counted upon as a military strategist, Jon's execution and planning of the enterprise was stupid as hell. But it's the kind of stupidity you don't hold against the character, but the writers who conceive his actions in the first place.
I still applaud the show for a lot of things but the writing isn't very good anymore. As easy as it is for someone you to say "who cares it's just fantasy" I can just as easily say "well the writing used to make sense and now it doesn't". If you are cool with it, great. But others aren't and it's a valid stance.
In thee show, it doesn't help that Kit Harington is dull. I read a couple of articles complaining that the romance type scenes between Jon and Danys are tedious and there is no chemistry. But these are the two most wooden actors in existence and what we are seeing is almost pollination rather than romance.
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the sharpest Valyrean sword in the scabbard
I think that there is an overarching message to the story (books and show) that virtue is generally accompanied by really unfavorable stuff. Either lack of other positive character traits or, generally, a fatal outcome. Virtue is not really a good thing in the GoT world. It's kind of a cynical view.
In thee show, it doesn't help that Kit Harington is dull. I read a couple of articles complaining that the romance type scenes between Jon and Danys are tedious and there is no chemistry. But these are the two most wooden actors in existence and what we are seeing is almost pollination rather than romance.
I thought that was intentional Jon Snow character acting. He's always been awkward around girls (the few he's interacted with at least) - well since Ygritte I guess.
I kept thinking he'd make his move on Dany, but no, just more awkward Jon Snow male/female interactions.
He's no Khal Drogo with the ladies.
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I love the show and will watch it to the end.
But, the whole plot from last episode was so dumb (bringing back a white walker? really?) and its bleeding into this episode.
Not a white walker, a wight. I didn't have an issue with that plot point.
But the raven flying as fast as an airplane? OK.
I agree with Jerz... the introduction of the plan in the first place was pretty stupid. It was proposed as the only way that Cersei's support against the White Walkers could be secured, but it was also accepted as a foolproof way, worthy of any potential (hell, likely) sacrifices the team-beyond-the-wall would suffer. And everyone just kind of accepted it as such. I was disappointed that no one seemed to consider the mission no to be worth the risk on the grounds that
a) it may not have been possible to capture a solitary wight from what, for all anyone knew, was an army that always traveled in packs of thousands
b) Cersei's reaction to a successfully-captured wight might not exactly go as expected, and
c) Cersei's participation in the war against the White Walkers was never really convincingly established as necessary in the first place.
I dunno.
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Keep in mind that water doesn't refreeze instantly either, especially to a point that hundreds (thousands) can walk on it. It was likely a couple days later, though surviving in the cold with little to no food that long is questionable.
I would imagine they brought food and water with them
Yes, it was on the sleds they were pulling. It's more the cold that would've (should've?) killed them, though they might've "lost" the food when they started running.
Interestingly, the showrunners repeatedly refer to Benjen as "Coldhands" during HBO's "Inside the Episode" segment. Martin has said Benjen is not Coldhands, and Coldhands has not been referenced in the show, so it's odd they would even bring that up.
Interestingly, the showrunners repeatedly refer to Benjen as "Coldhands" during HBO's "Inside the Episode" segment. Martin has said Benjen is not Coldhands, and Coldhands has not been referenced in the show, so it's odd they would even bring that up.
Yea that was really lame. I mean, why even have that scene? Just have Jon get scooped up by Rhaegal or something. But you know its because they wanted to "tie up" the loose end of Benjen still being alive and Jon not having seen him before he died. Mission accomplished!
Yep... a lot of it all just seems so perfunctory at this point.
The chains likely came from Hardhome for people actually worrying about it. When they finally dragged the dragon out it could have been a week later. We have no idea.
I don't know but this episode made it clear they intentionally kept him off a dragon for whatever reason.
The chains likely came from Hardhome for people actually worrying about it. When they finally dragged the dragon out it could have been a week later. We have no idea.
I just assumed that the chains used were the kind used at that time to tow large ships or build large structures, all of which may have existed at some point north of the wall.
And again, it's safe to assume that Benjen wanted to die. He'd been roaming around half dead for years - told Jon "no time" probably just to shut him up from arguing with him.
But the chains and Benjen and the rate of flight for a raven to me just seem like minor things in relation to the important developments in the episode.
But this then opens up even more plot problems. If they can swim and are not affected by the ice water since they are already dead, then why did they even need to wait for the lake to refreeze to attack? If they could swim than what difference did it make? And why did the ones that fell into the lake when it initially cracked seem to disappear if they could in fact swim?
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They all fell in the ice and were able to swim up and grab Tormunds legs out of the hole at one point. Mystery solved.
The chains likely came from Hardhome for people actually worrying about it. When they finally dragged the dragon out it could have been a week later. We have no idea.
If they cold swim, why would they stop and wait for hours before trying to go to the island?
Quiet you! It's fantasy. Fantasize.
Also, let's not act like wondering about the chains is some trivial nitpick. It makes sense to pause and wonder where and how a wandering army who previously hadn't been shown to have such a large and random thing suddenly possesses it. It's the kind of thing satirized by how the campy 60's Batman would conveniently have shark repellent in his utility belt.
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When he arrived back at the wall, wouldn't slowing down a horse and expanding that time frame with another rider add to the risk?!
If you are going to apply that kind of logic, then you would also have to accept that he would have had approximately 10 seconds of survival time once he entered into the frozen water in the first place.
Maybe but the Benjen complaints are still stupid IMO. He was half dead and had already vocalized to Bran that he only wanted to take out more white walkers before he could finally die. Would people have been happier if he escorted Jon back to the wall and then went back and took a few white walkers before he died?? And again, if Jon was on the verge of death when he got back to the wall, it pretty obviously stands to reason more time= less chance of survival.
If he took out the A-Team, Dany and her dragons would never have flown close enough for that to happen.
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They all fell in the ice and were able to swim up and grab Tormunds legs out of the hole at one point. Mystery solved.
The chains likely came from Hardhome for people actually worrying about it. When they finally dragged the dragon out it could have been a week later. We have no idea.
If they cold swim, why would they stop and wait for hours before trying to go to the island?
Maybe because they didn't know they can swim? Or maybe they figured they were surrounded and they could come up with a better method? I can swim... you wouldn't see me jumping in the water. How smart do we want to make them?
Haha yeah that was ridiculous. And why did he take so long in between throwing javelins one and two? Really took his sweet time there.
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I haven't even talked about how weird it was that the Night King chose to throw his javelin-missile at the flying dragon several hundred yards away... instead of the closer, larger, landed, stationary dragon that people were in the process of climbing upon.
Haha yeah that was ridiculous. And why did he take so long in between throwing javelins one and two? Really took his sweet time there.
I guess the Night King works in mysterious ways?
I don't think the NK knew every little thing that was going to happen in that battle. He certainly didn't seem like he expected the dragons to show up.
and greenseers can warg as well, has the Night King warged at all? I can't recall off the top of my head.
Eh, all the living people were climbing onto one dragon and killing that dragon would've prevented their escape. Could easily argue that was the more strategic move.
and greenseers can warg as well, has the Night King warged at all? I can't recall off the top of my head.
Maybe? Does the disintegration of all the wights earlier in the episode when Jon killed the WW imply that the WW was warging into them?
Personally, I think it was a matter of 3 days that passed.
Day 1 - Jon told Gendry to run back to the Wall to send a raven when there was there was still daylight outside. Gendry finally arrives at the Wall at sun down at the end of that first day when Davos sends the Ravens.
Plus Jon and the A-Team are protected from attacks because the ice all around the rock had broken apart and created a barrier between them and the White Walkers.
Day 2 - Following day, the group wakes up to find Thoros the Red Priest died from his zombie polar bear attack. This is also when the group stands up to stair down the Night King and Beric tells Jon that they both should make an attempt to take down the Night King as the chosen ones of the Lord of the Light. Jon says their best chance is to wait on Dany and the dragons.
This is also when the Ravens arrive at Dragonstone and Dany makes the choice to take her dragons to save Jon. So if Davos sent the ravens the previous night and Dany got them late afternoon, then it did take the ravens almost a full day to arrive there.
Day 3 - The Hound out of boredom, starts throwing rocks at the white walkers. This was, in my opinion, the biggest clue on the time lapse that occurred. The broken ice from Day 1 had fully frozen over again and allows the white walkers to now fully cross the lake. Sea water like that doesn't freeze in a matter of hours and needs a few days.
As for the dragons, you figure they'd fly extremely faster then ravens with their wingspans. So if Dany took off late afternoon of Day 2, they would have made it by morning of Day 3 in my opinion.
Of course the writers could have done a better job of relaying the time that went by but I think the time line above of 3 days is fairly reasonable.
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it lends more credence to the Night King being Bran, because I don't believe the Night King fits the characteristics of a traditional greenseer.
and greenseers can warg as well, has the Night King warged at all? I can't recall off the top of my head.
Maybe? Does the disintegration of all the wights earlier in the episode when Jon killed the WW imply that the WW was warging into them?
that would mean all white walkers were greenseers and wargs, I don't think so. I think the wights just work where whatever white walker re-animates them, when that white walker is killed all the wights it has reanimated are killed (again) too.
just my assumption. I'm also assuming the Night King has different powers than the White Walkers.
and greenseers can warg as well, has the Night King warged at all? I can't recall off the top of my head.
I think the Night King warged into the ravens Bran used to spy on him last episode, kind of canceling/disconnecting Bran's connection to the ravens.
Plus wouldn't surprise me if the Night King warged into the polar bear to spy on Jon's group. Why else was there an isolated zombie bear wandering away so far from the Night King's base camp/army.
and I say for context because sometimes I know I don't have a great concept of how far or close these places are, especially earlier in the story when Tyrion was traveling the seven kingdoms.
LOL well the average speed of a flying dragon, reduced by the appropriate factor for the head wind and rest room stops, makes this all fit together perfectly.
Watch it again.. Viseryan clearly is making a right turn and coming towards the Knight King right as he is about to unload.
I mean, I guess the Night King was absolutely certain that he'd be able to hit the distant flying target as he knew the writers were on his side so the choice is ultimately irrelevant. But I don't see how that shot establishes the flying dragon as an impending threat and proves his choice was based on self-preservation instead of being dictated by, "We can't have him throw it at the clearly more obvious dragon because that would ultimately end the series."
Even that's a stretch. A dragon flying 100mph would still need to fly for an entire day straight to get to the Wall from Dragonstone. I'm pretty sure a human being couldn't withstand even that speed in the open air, no less for that length of time.
The thing that really bothers me is that it wouldn't have been that hard to avoid the whole thing. They could have had an awesome Helm's Deep type of siege scene that would have made sense and given the dragons enough time to get there and not be stupid. Maybe the Rangers set up some sort of way station structure for longer forays or maybe there is some kind of naturally fortified area that the Magnificent 7/A-team could have held off the wight horde for a few days. Or they could even have written a scene or two on that rock with everyone speculating about what the night king was waiting for. Anything to show a reasonable passage of time. It's comical to expect nearly 5000 miles of travel to happen in what appeared to be about 12-18 hours. That entire sequence was either a massive failure in writing or in execution.
So this is their way of getting to the important book plot of the White Walkers gaining control of Viserion but in a vastly different way. I doubt I'm totally correct on this but I can see some version of this playing out if and when the books are ever written.
So this is their way of getting to the important book plot of the White Walkers gaining control of Viserion but in a vastly different way. I doubt I'm totally correct on this but I can see some version of this playing out if and when the books are ever written.
By Fake Aegon, do you mean Young Griff? Pretty sure he's already toast...
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just not a Raven or Gendry running.
Even that's a stretch. A dragon flying 100mph would still need to fly for an entire day straight to get to the Wall from Dragonstone. I'm pretty sure a human being couldn't withstand even that speed in the open air, no less for that length of time.
The thing that really bothers me is that it wouldn't have been that hard to avoid the whole thing. They could have had an awesome Helm's Deep type of siege scene that would have made sense and given the dragons enough time to get there and not be stupid. Maybe the Rangers set up some sort of way station structure for longer forays or maybe there is some kind of naturally fortified area that the Magnificent 7/A-team could have held off the wight horde for a few days. Or they could even have written a scene or two on that rock with everyone speculating about what the night king was waiting for. Anything to show a reasonable passage of time. It's comical to expect nearly 5000 miles of travel to happen in what appeared to be about 12-18 hours. That entire sequence was either a massive failure in writing or in execution.
Exactly. Or have them being hunted and on the run in the snow and forest for days. That's basically what happened to the Nights Watch after the Fist of the First Men.
The end result was fine. How they chose to get there was lazily done.
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I think Fake Aegon will try to ride Viserion and fail proving he's a fake. Euron will steal Viserion with the horn and at some point the dragon will wind up dead or it will be revealed Euron is an agent of the White Walkers and deliver the dragon to them.
So this is their way of getting to the important book plot of the White Walkers gaining control of Viserion but in a vastly different way. I doubt I'm totally correct on this but I can see some version of this playing out if and when the books are ever written.
By Fake Aegon, do you mean Young Griff? Pretty sure he's already toast...
Young Griff is still alive last left in the books, he's with Jon Connington I believe.
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I think Fake Aegon will try to ride Viserion and fail proving he's a fake. Euron will steal Viserion with the horn and at some point the dragon will wind up dead or it will be revealed Euron is an agent of the White Walkers and deliver the dragon to them.
So this is their way of getting to the important book plot of the White Walkers gaining control of Viserion but in a vastly different way. I doubt I'm totally correct on this but I can see some version of this playing out if and when the books are ever written.
By Fake Aegon, do you mean Young Griff? Pretty sure he's already toast...
Yeah but he's still alive. You might be thinking of Quentyn Martell who was roasted by one of them and is dead. I suspect it will be Viseiron Young Griff will attempt to ride, and will fail, Viserion rejecting him, proving he's not who he says he is.
The thing that really bothers me is that it wouldn't have been that hard to avoid the whole thing. They could have had an awesome Helm's Deep type of siege scene that would have made sense and given the dragons enough time to get there and not be stupid.
Hell, I'd have preferred if they just abandoned the entire "We NEED to risk our lives capturing a wight because doing so WILL make Cersei believe us and join us... but we needn't spend any more time developing this plan beyond half baked, and we certainly don't need to plan for any contingencies!" thing to begin with.
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The thing that really bothers me is that it wouldn't have been that hard to avoid the whole thing. They could have had an awesome Helm's Deep type of siege scene that would have made sense and given the dragons enough time to get there and not be stupid.
Hell, I'd have preferred if they just abandoned the entire "We NEED to risk our lives capturing a wight because doing so WILL make Cersei believe us and join us... but we needn't spend any more time developing this plan beyond half baked, and we certainly don't need to plan for any contingencies!" thing to begin with.
This I agree with. I mentioned it last week. The plan in general was stupid. At least Jon said it wasn't the best plan and acknowledged it.
And yeah, getting Cersei's support is dumb as fuck... but if they can use this Wight to at least team up with Jamie and other leaders within Cersei's camp, maybe just maybe they can galvanize enough support from that side so that WHEN, not if, Cersei tries to ambush them with her Golden Company at some point in Season 7... they can overcome it.
(or maybe in GOT as with other HBO series, we'll be left with a vastly disappointing ending where we dont know who the fuck ended up winning, or with Cersei winning despite doing nothing to beat the WW)
Anyway, I'm entertained... that's all i can really ask for our of a television show/movie.
I didnt think the Night King could be defeated by fire.
The run to the wall is semi-believable. It's the raven then flying 1200 km followed by the dragons flying the same distance and only 1 day (2 days tops) passing all while the A-team was surrounded on a rock.
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Time passing to at least night while Gendry was running? He really couldn't have ran back to the wall over 12-14 hours??
The run to the wall is semi-believable. It's the raven then flying 1200 km followed by the dragons flying the same distance and only 1 day (2 days tops) passing all while the A-team was surrounded on a rock.
Also, in real life the A-team's GPS batteries might have died, making it less likely that Dany and her dragons would be able to zero in on their exact location in a large region in inclement weather.
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In comment 13566982 ZGiants98 said:
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Time passing to at least night while Gendry was running? He really couldn't have ran back to the wall over 12-14 hours??
The run to the wall is semi-believable. It's the raven then flying 1200 km followed by the dragons flying the same distance and only 1 day (2 days tops) passing all while the A-team was surrounded on a rock.
Also, in real life the A-team's GPS batteries might have died, making it less likely that Dany and her dragons would be able to zero in on their exact location in a large region in inclement weather.
That's forgivable too. Eagles can see a rabbit from 3.2 km away, so I imagine a dragon can spot a massive horde of wight's from significantly further.
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The thing that really bothers me is that it wouldn't have been that hard to avoid the whole thing. They could have had an awesome Helm's Deep type of siege scene that would have made sense and given the dragons enough time to get there and not be stupid.
Hell, I'd have preferred if they just abandoned the entire "We NEED to risk our lives capturing a wight because doing so WILL make Cersei believe us and join us... but we needn't spend any more time developing this plan beyond half baked, and we certainly don't need to plan for any contingencies!" thing to begin with.
That's forgivable too. Eagles can see a rabbit from 3.2 km away, so I imagine a dragon can spot a massive horde of wight's from significantly further.
Aren't they... different species though?
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That's forgivable too. Eagles can see a rabbit from 3.2 km away, so I imagine a dragon can spot a massive horde of wight's from significantly further.
Aren't they... different species though?
Sure. I'm just saying that supervision for a real animal isn't unheard of, so it wouldn't be that much of a stretch to believe that dragons have it too. Far more believable than them flying mach 6 with Dany on board...
Man, they could have written themselves into scenarios that would make all of this so much less distracting and diminishing.
How about a scenario where Jon asks for dragon support before they leave Dragonstone and Dany waffles on whether or not to commit. Skip all the Gendry/raven crap and Dany can make a surprise appearance just in the nick of time ala Stannis.
Blissfully ignoring the lack of GPS in both cases, it would have made the timeline muddy enough for it to be plausible.
How about a scenario where Jon asks for dragon support before they leave Dragonstone and Dany waffles on whether or not to commit.
Right. Or Dany offers it. Or Tyrion alludes to how it's possible to provide it. Or someone at least acknowledges the fact that they have dragons, that the mission could be compromised, and the dragons could be of use if the mission becomes compromised.
He didn't bring his hammer, making him uber fast.
How about a scenario where Jon asks for dragon support before they leave Dragonstone and Dany waffles on whether or not to commit. Skip all the Gendry/raven crap and Dany can make a surprise appearance just in the nick of time ala Stannis.
Blissfully ignoring the lack of GPS in both cases, it would have made the timeline muddy enough for it to be plausible.
The relative stupidity of their plans or their inability to work together is part of the story and part of the human experience. I'm only choked at how implausible - no matter how you try to ignore it - of the time/space liberties being forced on us. It's pretty ridiculous. Too bad Uncle B's horse can't support two riders.
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They've confirmed many times that MANY years have passed since the show started, arguably a decade since episode 1. Time IS passing. We have 7 damn episodes left. Do we want to spend those 7 episodes watching birds fly with messages for 30 minutes or Gendry riding back on a horse for a whole episode? What's the alternative??
You're confusing time passing off screen and the concept of making it reasonable with what you show on screen.
In this case there is no reasonable way to account for time elapsed and the distance traveled. They spent roughly a day traveling beyond the wall. From the time the gang gets surrounded by the undead at the end of their day and when they wake up the next morning, we are asked to believe that
1. Gendry ran all the way back to where they started.
2. A raven flew the entire length of the continent
3. Dany flew the length of the continent with her dragons
You can make that somewhat believable by stretching the timeline a few days. Have the gang on the run, hiding, etc. It would not have been hard to write something like that and arrive at the same result.
Gentry ran part of the day and all night before collapsing the next morning in front of the East Watch gates. At the very least he was on the move about 16 hours. I thought that was implied. . Lets assume ravens fill the same purpose as carrier pigeons. That means they will fly fast and are long distance flyers. Competitive carrier pigeons fly for over 1,100 miles at an average speed of 50 mph with speeds of 90 mph over short distances. The distance from East watch to Dragon Stone is about 1,000 miles so a raven can fly that distance in a day. Assuming the dragon can fly twice as fast as a raven then that distance can be covered in as little as 10 hours, half a day at most. So by the time that Jon send Gentry for help and Daenerys showing up would have been just under 3 days and this lines up with Jon and crew timeline. Game of Thrones has a lot of Deus ex Machina moments but this is not one of them.
But I draw the line at dead men being able to pull a dragon from the water and ravens flying fast. That shit's just ridiculous. BOO!!
A work of fiction that incorporates fantasy elements still has boundaries between fantasy and what resembles realism. If Arya gave birth to a horse, you wouldn't just shrug and say "There's magic in the world."
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How about a scenario where Jon asks for dragon support before they leave Dragonstone and Dany waffles on whether or not to commit.
Right. Or Dany offers it. Or Tyrion alludes to how it's possible to provide it. Or someone at least acknowledges the fact that they have dragons, that the mission could be compromised, and the dragons could be of use if the mission becomes compromised.
Dany was not ever going to waste her time flying a dragon to help Jon on this - she didn't even believe in wight walkers.
The distress letter that came with the raven, combined with Tyrion forcing her to realize her feelings for Jon, ultimately lead to her having a change in heart and going to his aid.
but caring about whether it would take Dany 2 days to find the A-Team up north or 4 days... that beef pales in comparison to Arya being able to look and sound like Walder Frey, killing his entire family.
IMO, of course.
A work of fiction that incorporates fantasy elements still has boundaries between fantasy and what resembles realism. If Arya gave birth to a horse, you wouldn't just shrug and say "There's magic in the world."
. . . I've heard that George RR Martin's original idea for the lead character was supposed to be "Arya Stark, Mother of Horses" - but it didn't have a good ring to it.
but caring about whether it would take Dany 2 days to find the A-Team up north or 4 days... that beef pales in comparison to Arya being able to look and sound like Walder Frey, killing his entire family.
IMO, of course.
It isn't just 1 instance though, that's our point (or atleast mine). In the early seasons everything was well explained and plausible as it pertains to the world that was created. Lately, it's all been out of whack and it's very noticeable. There's some people here who will have an answer for anything because no one dare say a bad word about GoT, and others that are more critical. I think it's fine to take either stance but blaming it on it being a fantasy series is such a tiresome and frankly cheap argument. By that logic the Walking Deads stupid plots should just be ok with everyone, since hey, it's zombies man.
Jeez....it's not like they had Gendry fly back to Eastwatch in John Denver's experimental airplane.
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this series was compelling enough just dealing with the battle for the iron throne ... without all the supernatural shit going on.
but caring about whether it would take Dany 2 days to find the A-Team up north or 4 days... that beef pales in comparison to Arya being able to look and sound like Walder Frey, killing his entire family.
IMO, of course.
It isn't just 1 instance though, that's our point (or atleast mine). In the early seasons everything was well explained and plausible as it pertains to the world that was created. Lately, it's all been out of whack and it's very noticeable. There's some people here who will have an answer for anything because no one dare say a bad word about GoT, and others that are more critical. I think it's fine to take either stance but blaming it on it being a fantasy series is such a tiresome and frankly cheap argument. By that logic the Walking Deads stupid plots should just be ok with everyone, since hey, it's zombies man.
The series has ALWAYS had a level of absurdity about it due to the fact that they're forced to include all of the supernatural stuff that is in the books. It just hasn't been as noticeable until now because much of it, even including the dragons, was placed to the side to focus on the more character-centric storylines.
But eventually they had to address the "magical" stuff to move the overall story to it's conclusion, and there really is no neat way they could have done it to make it seamless and sensisical - some of us excepted this from the very beginning, but obviously some are getting caught off guard by it.
Regardless the show writers shouldn't be killed for a few plot holes - the source material is just too difficult to translate perfectly to a 1 hour weekly program. However, what they've been able to do up to this point is remarkable and I feel like a lot of people are going to ruin the ride for themselves if they continue to focus in on relatively small plot deficiencies.
But while I thought that this episode was an impressive production (especially for TV), I wasn't all that impressed with the narrative. You can really tell that the show is no longer based on GRRM books and is written by TV writers now. Predictability. Cut corners. Plot points that don't really work upon deeper analysis.
And the pure drama is just misfiring for me, for whatever reason. For example, I really like Tormund. But during that scene where it looked like he was gonna be murdered, I didn't feel anything.
It does seem like Season 8 will be the war against the army of the dead. Which makes sense, because that can't be rushed.
And might I say that this "Bran as Night King" theory sucks Dothraki taint. I can't imagine that the show will do something so cheap and stupid. If it does, that would be a massive disappointment.
I don't get why it takes the wights so damn long to kill someone. Tormund had a ton of them on top of him but somehow none of them stabbed, slashed, or bit him. He should have died and it would have been a good death. Thoros being the only death was weak especially knowing the red woman is still alive which means there's still a small chance Beric can continue being Beric. Now that they have to fight a war I don't even think Jons promise to kill Melissandre will even come into play, he needs her now (presumably with Beric still alive).
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maybe because the whole reason they went north of the wall is dumb.
I don't get why it takes the wights so damn long to kill someone. Tormund had a ton of them on top of him but somehow none of them stabbed, slashed, or bit him. He should have died and it would have been a good death. Thoros being the only death was weak especially knowing the red woman is still alive which means there's still a small chance Beric can continue being Beric. Now that they have to fight a war I don't even think Jons promise to kill Melissandre will even come into play, he needs her now (presumably with Beric still alive).
Thoros survived a zombie polar bear gorging on his chest (and was even walking around!). He should have died then.
The show has been protecting its main characters and 1B characters for too long. And that's despite military battles with dragons and onslaughts from hordes of wights.
The sense of danger that this show used to have is gone. The suspense is low because the primary characters keep surviving everything.
And I agree with those who think that the Arya/Sansa feud is forced. It would seem pretty credible to me that Sansa was forced to write that letter. I don't see a legitimate reason why Arya's character should be taking the hard-ass stance she's taking now.
The show has been protecting its main characters and 1B characters for too long. And that's despite military battles with dragons and onslaughts from hordes of wights.
The sense of danger that this show used to have is gone. The suspense is low because the primary characters keep surviving everything.
Agree 100%.
Regardless one of the best stories I have ever read and shows I've ever seen.
‘Game Of Thrones’ Director Teases Dark Fate For Arya And Sansa - ( New Window )
I read that as he was saying he wants you to think one would die but be unsure of which one.
Link - ( New Window )
It's likely this happens in the books in a radically different way and they needed to get the adaptation to match up with that coming pot point. Okay, fine. But if they're not going to do it the way George RR Martin is planning to do it, you mean to tell me professional writers doing the adaptation couldn't come up with another and more believable way to achieve that?