There were several cues to the passage of time. Besides, he went straight south. On the way north, it would make sense for the crew to have taken a more winding route, looking for wights without getting farther into enemy territory than necessary.
How a smith from King's Landing navigated in the snowy tundra is another matter. But hey, it's a show about dragons.
They've confirmed many times that MANY years have passed since the show started, arguably a decade since episode 1. Time IS passing. We have 7 damn episodes left. Do we want to spend those 7 episodes watching birds fly with messages for 30 minutes or Gendry riding back on a horse for a whole episode? What's the alternative??
You're confusing time passing off screen and the concept of making it reasonable with what you show on screen.
In this case there is no reasonable way to account for time elapsed and the distance traveled. They spent roughly a day traveling beyond the wall. From the time the gang gets surrounded by the undead at the end of their day and when they wake up the next morning, we are asked to believe that
1. Gendry ran all the way back to where they started.
2. A raven flew the entire length of the continent
3. Dany flew the length of the continent with her dragons
You can make that somewhat believable by stretching the timeline a few days. Have the gang on the run, hiding, etc. It would not have been hard to write something like that and arrive at the same result.
has never been an issue, I think most assumed there's been a ton of time that the story has spanned since season 1. Sam confirming it wasn't really noteworthy, unless people actually thought it's only been a few months which wouldn't make any sense anyway.
Speeding up plotlines is fine, when executed well. The Gendry/Raven thing was handled poorly, same as Jamie escaping by swimming like Tully with a full suit of golden armor.
The highlight for me were the panning shots of Jon and Co trekking north. Simply gorgeous. Also liked the exchanges between each character during their march. Thought the Sansa/Arya stuff was interesting, but I doubt it will amount to a falling out and betrayal.
A dragon dying had to happen. There's only so many times they can show Dany showing up with 3 dragons to save the day. There needs to be some realistic adversity and now that will happen.
Yeah, for me it was the weakest episode in a long while Â
I think that they are really just writing a tv show now and not GoT.
The time thing defies any explanation even beyond mere television. And to be honest, it just makes the show look stupid. Gendry has to run to eastwatch, the ravens have to get to Dragonstone, Danys has to bicker with Tyrion and fly North of the Wall all while the wights hang out on the periphery of a pond and 7 guys sit on a hill just waiting. Besides the fact that they all would have died of exposure, it makes me wonder why Danys just didn't do commando raids from Slavers Bay into Kings Landing. War...and books...over...in fifteen minutes.
These dead getting killed by swords mystifies me. The took a sword as a person, died, got reanimated and a stab kills them again. And, apparently they drown too. Didn't they ever watch Pirates? Walk under the lake onto the hill where Jon was.
They repeated the Jamie in the river trick in back to back episodes. And, it didn't get any more believable with Jon. I'll bet Leo wishes he had Jon's resistance to ice cold water; he'd be hanging out with Kate Winslet today.
I'm sorry, but the Bejen part was the worst part for me. The utter stupid convenience of it all.
A close second was Arya just leaving faces hanging around. Heck, Littlefinger did a better job of hiding the note and he *wanted* Arya to find it.
I'm a little surprised that Bran had more face time when he was learning to be a tree than when hanging out with family. I know that he's not Bran any more but you would think they would want to say hi to him, have breakfast and stuff together. If he does intend to tell people what's going on, you would think he would put himself in a position to actually do it.
"poster" or one actually pretty similar I posted in April and was mocked by many of you for posting a "fan boy" poster not an official poster is more real than many of you (or I) knew.
RE: Yeah, for me it was the weakest episode in a long while Â
I think that they are really just writing a tv show now and not GoT.
The time thing defies any explanation even beyond mere television. And to be honest, it just makes the show look stupid. Gendry has to run to eastwatch, the ravens have to get to Dragonstone, Danys has to bicker with Tyrion and fly North of the Wall all while the wights hang out on the periphery of a pond and 7 guys sit on a hill just waiting. Besides the fact that they all would have died of exposure, it makes me wonder why Danys just didn't do commando raids from Slavers Bay into Kings Landing. War...and books...over...in fifteen minutes.
These dead getting killed by swords mystifies me. The took a sword as a person, died, got reanimated and a stab kills them again. And, apparently they drown too. Didn't they ever watch Pirates? Walk under the lake onto the hill where Jon was.
They repeated the Jamie in the river trick in back to back episodes. And, it didn't get any more believable with Jon. I'll bet Leo wishes he had Jon's resistance to ice cold water; he'd be hanging out with Kate Winslet today.
I'm sorry, but the Bejen part was the worst part for me. The utter stupid convenience of it all.
A close second was Arya just leaving faces hanging around. Heck, Littlefinger did a better job of hiding the note and he *wanted* Arya to find it.
I'm a little surprised that Bran had more face time when he was learning to be a tree than when hanging out with family. I know that he's not Bran any more but you would think they would want to say hi to him, have breakfast and stuff together. If he does intend to tell people what's going on, you would think he would put himself in a position to actually do it.
FYI - The White Walkers arent being killed by just any sword - Longclaw is made of Valyrian Steel (which is said to be forged by Dragon fire). Regular swords don't have the same effect.
the Raven/Dany's arrival being the biggest. So Jon and his crew are surrounded by the Night's King army, then Gendry runs back to Eastwatch, then they have a Maester send a raven, then Dany gets the raven, then she decides to go save them and they're still on that rock. I get it's a fiction/fantasy story, but I just feel like the book will do that plot much more justice if it's even remotely similar in the book.
No food, freezing cold, and they're still hanging in when dany arrives.
And I didn't realize Arya actually had to already have the faces in her possession before she can assume that person's identity, no clue why i thought it was a warg type thing. It would have been cool if they showed a new face of someone she hadn't used yet. Unless she has more faces like Tommen or Joffrey or her father or mother, I don't see her heading back to Braavos to pick up a new face.
"poster" or one actually pretty similar I posted in April and was mocked by many of you for posting a "fan boy" poster not an official poster is more real than many of you (or I) knew.
I found the thread you posted with this image: http://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=543747 no one was mocking you here at least. Regardless, it wasn't an official poster for the season and was clearly fan made. HBO wouldn't put that big of a spoiler in a promotional image for the season.
"poster" or one actually pretty similar I posted in April and was mocked by many of you for posting a "fan boy" poster not an official poster is more real than many of you (or I) knew.
I found the thread you posted with this image: http://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=543747 no one was mocking you here at least. Regardless, it wasn't an official poster for the season and was clearly fan made. HBO wouldn't put that big of a spoiler in a promotional image for the season.
Maybe mocked was a bit of an exaggeration, LOL. but it seems like it was spot-on, official or not. Shit has been leaking on this show the past couple seasons (at least).
RE: RE: Yeah, for me it was the weakest episode in a long while Â
I think that they are really just writing a tv show now and not GoT.
The time thing defies any explanation even beyond mere television. And to be honest, it just makes the show look stupid. Gendry has to run to eastwatch, the ravens have to get to Dragonstone, Danys has to bicker with Tyrion and fly North of the Wall all while the wights hang out on the periphery of a pond and 7 guys sit on a hill just waiting. Besides the fact that they all would have died of exposure, it makes me wonder why Danys just didn't do commando raids from Slavers Bay into Kings Landing. War...and books...over...in fifteen minutes.
These dead getting killed by swords mystifies me. The took a sword as a person, died, got reanimated and a stab kills them again. And, apparently they drown too. Didn't they ever watch Pirates? Walk under the lake onto the hill where Jon was.
They repeated the Jamie in the river trick in back to back episodes. And, it didn't get any more believable with Jon. I'll bet Leo wishes he had Jon's resistance to ice cold water; he'd be hanging out with Kate Winslet today.
I'm sorry, but the Bejen part was the worst part for me. The utter stupid convenience of it all.
A close second was Arya just leaving faces hanging around. Heck, Littlefinger did a better job of hiding the note and he *wanted* Arya to find it.
I'm a little surprised that Bran had more face time when he was learning to be a tree than when hanging out with family. I know that he's not Bran any more but you would think they would want to say hi to him, have breakfast and stuff together. If he does intend to tell people what's going on, you would think he would put himself in a position to actually do it.
FYI - The White Walkers arent being killed by just any sword - Longclaw is made of Valyrian Steel (which is said to be forged by Dragon fire). Regular swords don't have the same effect.
Yeah, but the wights were getting re-killed by regular stuff, which was my point.
RE: RE: RE: Yeah, for me it was the weakest episode in a long while Â
I think that they are really just writing a tv show now and not GoT.
The time thing defies any explanation even beyond mere television. And to be honest, it just makes the show look stupid. Gendry has to run to eastwatch, the ravens have to get to Dragonstone, Danys has to bicker with Tyrion and fly North of the Wall all while the wights hang out on the periphery of a pond and 7 guys sit on a hill just waiting. Besides the fact that they all would have died of exposure, it makes me wonder why Danys just didn't do commando raids from Slavers Bay into Kings Landing. War...and books...over...in fifteen minutes.
These dead getting killed by swords mystifies me. The took a sword as a person, died, got reanimated and a stab kills them again. And, apparently they drown too. Didn't they ever watch Pirates? Walk under the lake onto the hill where Jon was.
They repeated the Jamie in the river trick in back to back episodes. And, it didn't get any more believable with Jon. I'll bet Leo wishes he had Jon's resistance to ice cold water; he'd be hanging out with Kate Winslet today.
I'm sorry, but the Bejen part was the worst part for me. The utter stupid convenience of it all.
A close second was Arya just leaving faces hanging around. Heck, Littlefinger did a better job of hiding the note and he *wanted* Arya to find it.
I'm a little surprised that Bran had more face time when he was learning to be a tree than when hanging out with family. I know that he's not Bran any more but you would think they would want to say hi to him, have breakfast and stuff together. If he does intend to tell people what's going on, you would think he would put himself in a position to actually do it.
FYI - The White Walkers arent being killed by just any sword - Longclaw is made of Valyrian Steel (which is said to be forged by Dragon fire). Regular swords don't have the same effect.
Yeah, but the wights were getting re-killed by regular stuff, which was my point.
Ah, sorry. Suppose you're right there. That said, if the body of a wight isn't burned I'm pretty sure the NK can just raise them again so I don't think they really stay dead.
was the High Priest, who died from the bear wounds / frostbite overnight. The guy that fell over the edge i believe was just a wildling we see in the back of the group - all the secondary characters in that group died.
For all saying Bran is the night king, i get why that can make some sense - but the prophecy said he would never walk again, but he would fly.
If he's now flying on dragons + raven stuff... why doesnt the Night King's walking count? (not to mention his gold medal Javelin skills)
isn't it not a time/marching slowly issue but that they have to contend with the same magic that didn't allow them into the cave with the 3 eyed raven until Bran got marked to pass the wall?
of the main guys from the group had to go. Can't keep putting fan favorite characters in these perilous situations only to miraculously save them. It becomes too predictable and manipulative. Tormund or Jorah would have been sufficient.
For instance, not saying I want Jon to die but even when he goes into the water, we know he's making it out somehow. I'm not asking for another Red Wedding, it' a different show than it was then, but some middle ground would be nice.
I can suspend some disbelief when it comes to the ravens, time, distances traveled. But it's just a touch to predictable right now.
Still though, the action itself is unbelievable to watch. No show can do what this one is capable of.
the Night's King, just shoot the javelin at the A-team?
saving it for the dragon?
he had a 10,000 strong army standing on one side of an unfrozen lake waiting for it to freeze and he could have been just chucking javelins at them picking them off one by one.
Bran may be the Night's King, but if he is then killing himself should end the whole army, since by killing the Night's King all the Wights he brought back die too, which through connections to the other white walkers, is probably everyone.
the Night's King, just shoot the javelin at the A-team?
saving it for the dragon?
he had a 10,000 strong army standing on one side of an unfrozen lake waiting for it to freeze and he could have been just chucking javelins at them picking them off one by one.
Bran may be the Night's King, but if he is then killing himself should end the whole army, since by killing the Night's King all the Wights he brought back die too, which through connections to the other white walkers, is probably everyone.
It didn't look like they had that many javelins and the a-team was going to be toast pretty easily if the ice hadn't broken and the dragons didn't show up, so he didn't really need to use them until it was too late.
the Night's King, just shoot the javelin at the A-team?
saving it for the dragon?
he had a 10,000 strong army standing on one side of an unfrozen lake waiting for it to freeze and he could have been just chucking javelins at them picking them off one by one.
Bran may be the Night's King, but if he is then killing himself should end the whole army, since by killing the Night's King all the Wights he brought back die too, which through connections to the other white walkers, is probably everyone.
To me, it seemed likt the NK was waiting for the dragons to arrive. The entire thing reeked of a trap to me. The NK is likely a greenseer himself, giving him the ability to see ahead. He was also aware of Bran when Bran tried to tap in and find him, thus marking Bran and breaking the magic.
A part of me thinks the reason why the one wight they captured didn't explode when Jon struck the head white walker was so that the NK would have a wight south of the Wall. Perhaps this breaks the magic that prevents the WW from breaking through?
We talked about it in the other GoT thread but here are the highlights about want we discussed there...
* There's an interesting theory that leads to Bran being the Night King. So the theory states he goes back to the moment the night king was created, wargs into the man.... tries to explain what will happen and why they shouldn't do this... they call bull shit and do it anyways leaving bran as the night king.
* That would also make a lot of sense. It's seems like the Night King has always been one step ahead of Bran in their visions. So this theory would help prove that since the Night King would always know what to expect since he first lived those experiences as Bran and always know a counter for all of Bran's moves.
* Plus also explain how in episode 6x05 Meera was able to drag Bran away without getting caught by all the Night Kings wrights. I know that Hodor and Uncle Benjen helped but if this theory is correct, the Night King would want Meera to get away and help Bran cross the Wall or he'd never exist.
* Not to even mention why the Night King has always looked at Jon with a special interest. If it is Bran, then of course he'd look with interest with what Jon is doing since it is his brother/cousin.
* The fact Old Nan told him the Night's King name is Brandon Stark can't be merely coincidental. Or could it?
* Plus the old Three Eyed Raven mentioned to Bran that he'd wouldn't walk again (In Bran's old crippled body) but that he would fly. Most thought this meant warging into birds or one of the dragons. Although now that the Night King has his very own dragon, if Bran is the Night King, he will be able to fly now.
But the Night King can walk, so wouldn't that negate the 3 eyed raven's claim that "Bran wouldn't walk again"?
Bran warged into Hodor and "walked" so by that logic he has walked again, but him actually being the Night's King requires IMO more than waging into him.
I believe it's true and there is a lot of evidence in the show to suggest it that Bran is the Night King, and the reasons he "became the Night King" and why it won't accomplish what he feels it will accomplish.
I do think killing himself might kill the Night King.
than wouldn't he know it by now? He has spent a ton of time seeing the past, and future through the Weirwoods. I think he would know that, would he not? I mean he has already seen that the Whites are going to come past the wall, via his discussion with Meera. I'm not sure I really buy this theory. I do believe he will be integral in defeating the Nights King, but I just don't see how he is him. Why can't the Night King just be the powerful creation that the Children of the Forrest created, he has been defeated before, they need to understand what is in those books Sam has, and what brings him back.
but I can see Bran having a connection to him that helps either defeat him or perhaps turn him back, sort of reversing the way he was turned from man into White Walker by the Children of the Forest originally
Seems like a better explanation is that the Night King is a Stark and therefore has powers that run through the entire line of Starks, hence his ability to greensee.
A part of me thinks the reason why the one wight they captured didn't explode when Jon struck the head white walker was so that the NK would have a wight south of the Wall. Perhaps this breaks the magic that prevents the WW from breaking through?
Wights must be able to travel south of the wall otherwise Jon would never be able to bring one back in the first place. Also, wasn't there a wight brought back to Castle Black in the beginning of the series? So, that should have pierced the magic.
In the books, the spend a lot of time talking about the Horn of [Jericho] something which can bring the Wall down. I think that is a dropped plot point for the show. The Wall is ice; maybe you don't need Bran, maybe Vyserion can huff and puff and blow the Wall down?
and it's taken from some blogs/articles, but I think it merits consideration.
Quote:
.....The theory that Bran is the Night King, as explained by Reddit user turm0il26, involves the Stark boy's penchant for meddling with the past… and the inevitable consequences of that action. Bran has been warned on multiple occasions not to stay too long while warging or greenseeing, lest he lose himself somehow. What if all those warnings have been foreshadowing, and Bran does lose himself eventually — inside the mind of the man who becomes the Night King?
Viewers have already seen that Bran has the capability to warg into someone's consciousness while visiting the past; this is what he was doing when he inadvertently broke Hodor's mind. What if Bran becomes so desperate (perhaps because he feels guilty for his part in letting the White Walkers through the Wall?) that he believes the only way he can help end the Great War is to go back in time and stop the Children from ever creating the Night King to begin with?
Of course, savvy fantasy fans know how these time travel plots usually work: history is written in ink, and anything you do to try and change it will only end up causing whatever happened in the first place. But Bran, frantic to rectify the mistake he made, might forget that simple fact. And if warging back 30 years was enough to break Hodor's mind, warging back thousands of years should be more than enough to break the mind of not just the man he's trying to save… but Bran's own mind as well.
With Bran's consciousness lost inside the Night King's mind — and with the Night King's mind shattered beyond any thought other than vengeance against the beings who created him as a weapon of war — the Stark and the White Walker would truly become one.
There's foreshadowing of this twist in the scene of the Night King's origin. Bran clenches his fist, as though in pain, just as the man is about to be stabbed. When he wakes up, Bran is lying against the tree in exactly the same position as the man in the vision. Bran's first words upon awakening are to tell Leaf, "It was you," as though part of him recognized the being who stabbed him thousands of years ago. And when he asks Leaf who the Children needed to defend themselves from, she responds, "From you."...
Leaf doesn't just state that she created them to protect them from you Â
The First Men and Children of the Forrest were enemies at first, and the First Men almost wiped them all out. They were created in desperation to save themselves, which ultimately backfired.
RE: Leaf doesn't just state that she created them to protect them from you Â
The First Men and Children of the Forrest were enemies at first, and the First Men almost wiped them all out. They were created in desperation to save themselves, which ultimately backfired.
agree, changes nothing with the theory though
everybody complains about the time that characters travel Â
I mean this reviewer is seriously questioning where the white walkers got those chains from? Seriously? Who gives a fuck?
Well, that reviewer probably has a distaste for overuse of Deus ex machina. The white walkers either fabricating or having the foresight to drag along big chains for dragon recovery purposes certainly counts as one.
RE: everybody complains about the time that characters travel Â
and it not being believable in a show that contains Dragons and an army of the dead...
Its a fantasy tv show.. who cares about travel time. Just enjoy it..
Yeah, but there are limits to which the "it's a fantasy tv show" dismissal should not apply. For example, if Euron's fleet of ships flew in to kidnap Jon Snow in the midst of the battle, you wouldn't just shrug and say, "Oh, ships fly now... awesome!"
The episode basically treated summoning a dragon attack like a Call of Duty airstrike perk, which makes me wonder why Highgarden didn't take advantage while being sacked.
I mean this reviewer is seriously questioning where the white walkers got those chains from? Seriously? Who gives a fuck?
Well, that reviewer probably has a distaste for overuse of Deus ex machina. The white walkers either fabricating or having the foresight to drag along big chains for dragon recovery purposes certainly counts as one.
Another reviewer posed the question, which is funny when you think about it, is that if the dead wights are not impervious to water, drowning when they fall into the lake and dissolving to such an extent that they could drag Jon down, weaponless and all and yet only Jon survives, how did they get down there to wrap the chains around the dragon in the first place?
Keep in mind that water doesn't refreeze instantly either, especially to a point that hundreds (thousands) can walk on it. It was likely a couple days later, though surviving in the cold with little to no food that long is questionable.
Another reviewer posed the question, which is funny when you think about it, is that if the dead wights are not impervious to water, drowning when they fall into the lake and dissolving to such an extent that they could drag Jon down, weaponless and all and yet only Jon survives, how did they get down there to wrap the chains around the dragon in the first place?
Not sure about the drowning part, but if the wights can't swim (plausible) then they would just sink to the bottom as bone is denser than water. Then walk? on the bottom to chain up the dragon. I doubt the night king would care about sacrificing a few to the bottom of the sea.
Another reviewer posed the question, which is funny when you think about it, is that if the dead wights are not impervious to water, drowning when they fall into the lake and dissolving to such an extent that they could drag Jon down, weaponless and all and yet only Jon survives, how did they get down there to wrap the chains around the dragon in the first place?
Yeah, it's totally stupid and ultimately lazy and thoughtless writing, meant only to deliver a dramatic "cliffhanger" during which the seemingly-lost dragon is -- surprise!!! -- recovered by the enemy. Like we didn't see that coming. Just have the dragon crash on land to spare us the embarrassing scene in the first place.
RE: RE: I don't want to sound like a hater here. Â
But, the whole plot from last episode was so dumb (bringing back a white walker? really?) and its bleeding into this episode.
It was dumb - really from the beginning it's been a challenge for the writers to include the wight walkers into the show in a way that makes sense. But the last two episodes did serve the purpose of making clear what the stakes are and forging important relationships that will be key later on.
heres one
RE: everybody complains about the time that characters travel Â
and it not being believable in a show that contains Dragons and an army of the dead...
Its a fantasy tv show.. who cares about travel time. Just enjoy it..
Part of the attraction of the show is that it's not typical fantasy. There's no big, flying, shaggy dog that they all jump on to go touring and have adventures.
Tolkein once wrote an essay about how even fantasy has to have some sort of logic to it, in order to be successful. You can push boundaries but you have to tread carefully about breaking physical laws,
One reviewer today wrote that the success of GoT to a large extent was that it wasn't LoTR and posited that to a large extent it now is becoming LoTR and that's not a satisfying thing.
Well... accepting what you're shown explicitly actually doesn't really count as imagination. The imagination is actually being exercised when people are skeptical of these developments.
Why is it wrong to enjoy fiction and fantasy books or shows Â
but also want that fantasy to be explainable or follow rules?
We know where dragons came from and why.
We know how the Night's King and his army were created and why.
We know how Wight's are created and killed.
We do not know how Gendry can run from the other side of the wall all the way to eastwatch, have a Maester write a message, send a raven to dragonstone, have the raven get to dragonstone and deliver the message to Dany, who contemplates her next move, then decides to hop on her dragon and save the A-team while they've been waiting the whole time on an island surrounded by a frozen lake with no food or shelter.
There is nothing wrong with questioning things like this, and yet still loving the show.
and I seriously doubt the books follow the same plot, the pacing of the show seems to have well outpaced the book pace this whole season, if not sooner.
We're invested. We've invested a lot of time and thought into the series. But if you were somehow able to completely remove this investment from last night's episode, if it weren't protected by the general good will its developed over the past half decade, if it were simply a stand-alone movie or premier of a new series... well, it would basically have been something beneath The Mummy.
It was certainly gratifying to see the dragon emerge from nowhere just in the nick of time and roast the wights that were basically in mid-weapon swing in a "Fuck yeah!" sense, but I still had a sour taste in my mouth from observing a half dozen men tirelessly fend off several hundred skeletons by stabbing them with daggers.
Keep in mind that water doesn't refreeze instantly either, especially to a point that hundreds (thousands) can walk on it. It was likely a couple days later, though surviving in the cold with little to no food that long is questionable.
I would imagine they brought food and water with them
RE: Why is it wrong to enjoy fiction and fantasy books or shows Â
We do not know how Gendry can run from the other side of the wall all the way to eastwatch, have a Maester write a message, send a raven to dragonstone, have the raven get to dragonstone and deliver the message to Dany, who contemplates her next move, then decides to hop on her dragon and save the A-team while they've been waiting the whole time on an island surrounded by a frozen lake with no food or shelter.
Right. If you know you're going to eventually need to write a scene in which Jon summons Dany hoping for immediate assistance, you'd have done your characters a service by presenting them as smart enough to anticipate such an event. Maybe have Dany station a dragon and/or herself a bit closer? Hell, maybe just do away with the whole ridiculous mission to kidnap a skeleton in the first place?
The panic that consumed the team as they were about to be approached by a large undead army suggested that no one considered that idea. For someone who will apparently be counted upon as a military strategist, Jon's execution and planning of the enterprise was stupid as hell. But it's the kind of stupidity you don't hold against the character, but the writers who conceive his actions in the first place.
We do not know how Gendry can run from the other side of the wall all the way to eastwatch, have a Maester write a message, send a raven to dragonstone, have the raven get to dragonstone and deliver the message to Dany, who contemplates her next move, then decides to hop on her dragon and save the A-team while they've been waiting the whole time on an island surrounded by a frozen lake with no food or shelter.
Right. If you know you're going to eventually need to write a scene in which Jon summons Dany hoping for immediate assistance, you'd have done your characters a service by presenting them as smart enough to anticipate such an event. Maybe have Dany station a dragon and/or herself a bit closer? Hell, maybe just do away with the whole ridiculous mission to kidnap a skeleton in the first place?
The panic that consumed the team as they were about to be approached by a large undead army suggested that no one considered that idea. For someone who will apparently be counted upon as a military strategist, Jon's execution and planning of the enterprise was stupid as hell. But it's the kind of stupidity you don't hold against the character, but the writers who conceive his actions in the first place.
I think I said earlier that you can tell now that it's a tv show and not GoT. I can't conceive of Martin, even knowing what a big fat blob of lazy goo that he is, being this lazy in plot and device development. It's everything about bring the story to the screen and then outpacing the source material. The budget, the time constraints, the speed of television seasons, the sloth of the author. They are two entirely different things now. I was thinking that I had no real interest or reason to continue on reading when the next volume finally does come out, but I was wrong. I really do want to read on because I think that there might could be a very different story told.
I think this may have been the worst written episode of the entire series. It's really not that good. I never bought into the fanfiction argument, but that's what this was. Benjen says he can't go with Jon because there's no time? Well why not? He didn't even have to get off the horse, Jon could have just jumped on the back. My biggest complaint is the hundred pound chains used to get Viserion out of the water. I get the Night King is magical. But unless he's an actual and literal magician how do you make hundred pound chains the size of those pop up out of thin air?
How a smith from King's Landing navigated in the snowy tundra is another matter. But hey, it's a show about dragons.
Gendry - Rowing, no medals
Gendry - Running, Gold
You're confusing time passing off screen and the concept of making it reasonable with what you show on screen.
In this case there is no reasonable way to account for time elapsed and the distance traveled. They spent roughly a day traveling beyond the wall. From the time the gang gets surrounded by the undead at the end of their day and when they wake up the next morning, we are asked to believe that
1. Gendry ran all the way back to where they started.
2. A raven flew the entire length of the continent
3. Dany flew the length of the continent with her dragons
You can make that somewhat believable by stretching the timeline a few days. Have the gang on the run, hiding, etc. It would not have been hard to write something like that and arrive at the same result.
But, the whole plot from last episode was so dumb (bringing back a white walker? really?) and its bleeding into this episode.
Not a white walker, a wight. I didn't have an issue with that plot point.
But the raven flying as fast as an airplane? OK.
Speeding up plotlines is fine, when executed well. The Gendry/Raven thing was handled poorly, same as Jamie escaping by swimming like Tully with a full suit of golden armor.
The highlight for me were the panning shots of Jon and Co trekking north. Simply gorgeous. Also liked the exchanges between each character during their march. Thought the Sansa/Arya stuff was interesting, but I doubt it will amount to a falling out and betrayal.
A dragon dying had to happen. There's only so many times they can show Dany showing up with 3 dragons to save the day. There needs to be some realistic adversity and now that will happen.
The time thing defies any explanation even beyond mere television. And to be honest, it just makes the show look stupid. Gendry has to run to eastwatch, the ravens have to get to Dragonstone, Danys has to bicker with Tyrion and fly North of the Wall all while the wights hang out on the periphery of a pond and 7 guys sit on a hill just waiting. Besides the fact that they all would have died of exposure, it makes me wonder why Danys just didn't do commando raids from Slavers Bay into Kings Landing. War...and books...over...in fifteen minutes.
These dead getting killed by swords mystifies me. The took a sword as a person, died, got reanimated and a stab kills them again. And, apparently they drown too. Didn't they ever watch Pirates? Walk under the lake onto the hill where Jon was.
They repeated the Jamie in the river trick in back to back episodes. And, it didn't get any more believable with Jon. I'll bet Leo wishes he had Jon's resistance to ice cold water; he'd be hanging out with Kate Winslet today.
I'm sorry, but the Bejen part was the worst part for me. The utter stupid convenience of it all.
A close second was Arya just leaving faces hanging around. Heck, Littlefinger did a better job of hiding the note and he *wanted* Arya to find it.
I'm a little surprised that Bran had more face time when he was learning to be a tree than when hanging out with family. I know that he's not Bran any more but you would think they would want to say hi to him, have breakfast and stuff together. If he does intend to tell people what's going on, you would think he would put himself in a position to actually do it.
The time thing defies any explanation even beyond mere television. And to be honest, it just makes the show look stupid. Gendry has to run to eastwatch, the ravens have to get to Dragonstone, Danys has to bicker with Tyrion and fly North of the Wall all while the wights hang out on the periphery of a pond and 7 guys sit on a hill just waiting. Besides the fact that they all would have died of exposure, it makes me wonder why Danys just didn't do commando raids from Slavers Bay into Kings Landing. War...and books...over...in fifteen minutes.
These dead getting killed by swords mystifies me. The took a sword as a person, died, got reanimated and a stab kills them again. And, apparently they drown too. Didn't they ever watch Pirates? Walk under the lake onto the hill where Jon was.
They repeated the Jamie in the river trick in back to back episodes. And, it didn't get any more believable with Jon. I'll bet Leo wishes he had Jon's resistance to ice cold water; he'd be hanging out with Kate Winslet today.
I'm sorry, but the Bejen part was the worst part for me. The utter stupid convenience of it all.
A close second was Arya just leaving faces hanging around. Heck, Littlefinger did a better job of hiding the note and he *wanted* Arya to find it.
I'm a little surprised that Bran had more face time when he was learning to be a tree than when hanging out with family. I know that he's not Bran any more but you would think they would want to say hi to him, have breakfast and stuff together. If he does intend to tell people what's going on, you would think he would put himself in a position to actually do it.
FYI - The White Walkers arent being killed by just any sword - Longclaw is made of Valyrian Steel (which is said to be forged by Dragon fire). Regular swords don't have the same effect.
the Raven/Dany's arrival being the biggest. So Jon and his crew are surrounded by the Night's King army, then Gendry runs back to Eastwatch, then they have a Maester send a raven, then Dany gets the raven, then she decides to go save them and they're still on that rock. I get it's a fiction/fantasy story, but I just feel like the book will do that plot much more justice if it's even remotely similar in the book.
No food, freezing cold, and they're still hanging in when dany arrives.
And I didn't realize Arya actually had to already have the faces in her possession before she can assume that person's identity, no clue why i thought it was a warg type thing. It would have been cool if they showed a new face of someone she hadn't used yet. Unless she has more faces like Tommen or Joffrey or her father or mother, I don't see her heading back to Braavos to pick up a new face.
I found the thread you posted with this image: http://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=543747 no one was mocking you here at least. Regardless, it wasn't an official poster for the season and was clearly fan made. HBO wouldn't put that big of a spoiler in a promotional image for the season.
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"poster" or one actually pretty similar I posted in April and was mocked by many of you for posting a "fan boy" poster not an official poster is more real than many of you (or I) knew.
I found the thread you posted with this image: http://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=543747 no one was mocking you here at least. Regardless, it wasn't an official poster for the season and was clearly fan made. HBO wouldn't put that big of a spoiler in a promotional image for the season.
Maybe mocked was a bit of an exaggeration, LOL. but it seems like it was spot-on, official or not. Shit has been leaking on this show the past couple seasons (at least).
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I think that they are really just writing a tv show now and not GoT.
The time thing defies any explanation even beyond mere television. And to be honest, it just makes the show look stupid. Gendry has to run to eastwatch, the ravens have to get to Dragonstone, Danys has to bicker with Tyrion and fly North of the Wall all while the wights hang out on the periphery of a pond and 7 guys sit on a hill just waiting. Besides the fact that they all would have died of exposure, it makes me wonder why Danys just didn't do commando raids from Slavers Bay into Kings Landing. War...and books...over...in fifteen minutes.
These dead getting killed by swords mystifies me. The took a sword as a person, died, got reanimated and a stab kills them again. And, apparently they drown too. Didn't they ever watch Pirates? Walk under the lake onto the hill where Jon was.
They repeated the Jamie in the river trick in back to back episodes. And, it didn't get any more believable with Jon. I'll bet Leo wishes he had Jon's resistance to ice cold water; he'd be hanging out with Kate Winslet today.
I'm sorry, but the Bejen part was the worst part for me. The utter stupid convenience of it all.
A close second was Arya just leaving faces hanging around. Heck, Littlefinger did a better job of hiding the note and he *wanted* Arya to find it.
I'm a little surprised that Bran had more face time when he was learning to be a tree than when hanging out with family. I know that he's not Bran any more but you would think they would want to say hi to him, have breakfast and stuff together. If he does intend to tell people what's going on, you would think he would put himself in a position to actually do it.
FYI - The White Walkers arent being killed by just any sword - Longclaw is made of Valyrian Steel (which is said to be forged by Dragon fire). Regular swords don't have the same effect.
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In comment 13566493 Bill L said:
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I think that they are really just writing a tv show now and not GoT.
The time thing defies any explanation even beyond mere television. And to be honest, it just makes the show look stupid. Gendry has to run to eastwatch, the ravens have to get to Dragonstone, Danys has to bicker with Tyrion and fly North of the Wall all while the wights hang out on the periphery of a pond and 7 guys sit on a hill just waiting. Besides the fact that they all would have died of exposure, it makes me wonder why Danys just didn't do commando raids from Slavers Bay into Kings Landing. War...and books...over...in fifteen minutes.
These dead getting killed by swords mystifies me. The took a sword as a person, died, got reanimated and a stab kills them again. And, apparently they drown too. Didn't they ever watch Pirates? Walk under the lake onto the hill where Jon was.
They repeated the Jamie in the river trick in back to back episodes. And, it didn't get any more believable with Jon. I'll bet Leo wishes he had Jon's resistance to ice cold water; he'd be hanging out with Kate Winslet today.
I'm sorry, but the Bejen part was the worst part for me. The utter stupid convenience of it all.
A close second was Arya just leaving faces hanging around. Heck, Littlefinger did a better job of hiding the note and he *wanted* Arya to find it.
I'm a little surprised that Bran had more face time when he was learning to be a tree than when hanging out with family. I know that he's not Bran any more but you would think they would want to say hi to him, have breakfast and stuff together. If he does intend to tell people what's going on, you would think he would put himself in a position to actually do it.
FYI - The White Walkers arent being killed by just any sword - Longclaw is made of Valyrian Steel (which is said to be forged by Dragon fire). Regular swords don't have the same effect.
Yeah, but the wights were getting re-killed by regular stuff, which was my point.
Ah, sorry. Suppose you're right there. That said, if the body of a wight isn't burned I'm pretty sure the NK can just raise them again so I don't think they really stay dead.
Pretty sure Beric was still there at the end, think it was only Thoros
Just another anonymous wilding.
Thoros died in his sleep
For all saying Bran is the night king, i get why that can make some sense - but the prophecy said he would never walk again, but he would fly.
If he's now flying on dragons + raven stuff... why doesnt the Night King's walking count? (not to mention his gold medal Javelin skills)
Gendry - Rowing, no medals
Gendry - Running, Gold
LOL, this was good. We might want to add:
Jaime - 1500m freestyle, Gold
Mountain - Weightlifting, Gold
Ygritte - Archery (took 5-6 shots at Jon) - No medals
Ramsey - Archery, Gold
For instance, not saying I want Jon to die but even when he goes into the water, we know he's making it out somehow. I'm not asking for another Red Wedding, it' a different show than it was then, but some middle ground would be nice.
I can suspend some disbelief when it comes to the ravens, time, distances traveled. But it's just a touch to predictable right now.
Still though, the action itself is unbelievable to watch. No show can do what this one is capable of.
saving it for the dragon?
he had a 10,000 strong army standing on one side of an unfrozen lake waiting for it to freeze and he could have been just chucking javelins at them picking them off one by one.
Bran may be the Night's King, but if he is then killing himself should end the whole army, since by killing the Night's King all the Wights he brought back die too, which through connections to the other white walkers, is probably everyone.
saving it for the dragon?
he had a 10,000 strong army standing on one side of an unfrozen lake waiting for it to freeze and he could have been just chucking javelins at them picking them off one by one.
Bran may be the Night's King, but if he is then killing himself should end the whole army, since by killing the Night's King all the Wights he brought back die too, which through connections to the other white walkers, is probably everyone.
It didn't look like they had that many javelins and the a-team was going to be toast pretty easily if the ice hadn't broken and the dragons didn't show up, so he didn't really need to use them until it was too late.
saving it for the dragon?
he had a 10,000 strong army standing on one side of an unfrozen lake waiting for it to freeze and he could have been just chucking javelins at them picking them off one by one.
Bran may be the Night's King, but if he is then killing himself should end the whole army, since by killing the Night's King all the Wights he brought back die too, which through connections to the other white walkers, is probably everyone.
To me, it seemed likt the NK was waiting for the dragons to arrive. The entire thing reeked of a trap to me. The NK is likely a greenseer himself, giving him the ability to see ahead. He was also aware of Bran when Bran tried to tap in and find him, thus marking Bran and breaking the magic.
A part of me thinks the reason why the one wight they captured didn't explode when Jon struck the head white walker was so that the NK would have a wight south of the Wall. Perhaps this breaks the magic that prevents the WW from breaking through?
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Need an explanation.
We talked about it in the other GoT thread but here are the highlights about want we discussed there...
* There's an interesting theory that leads to Bran being the Night King. So the theory states he goes back to the moment the night king was created, wargs into the man.... tries to explain what will happen and why they shouldn't do this... they call bull shit and do it anyways leaving bran as the night king.
* That would also make a lot of sense. It's seems like the Night King has always been one step ahead of Bran in their visions. So this theory would help prove that since the Night King would always know what to expect since he first lived those experiences as Bran and always know a counter for all of Bran's moves.
* Plus also explain how in episode 6x05 Meera was able to drag Bran away without getting caught by all the Night Kings wrights. I know that Hodor and Uncle Benjen helped but if this theory is correct, the Night King would want Meera to get away and help Bran cross the Wall or he'd never exist.
* Not to even mention why the Night King has always looked at Jon with a special interest. If it is Bran, then of course he'd look with interest with what Jon is doing since it is his brother/cousin.
* The fact Old Nan told him the Night's King name is Brandon Stark can't be merely coincidental. Or could it?
* Plus the old Three Eyed Raven mentioned to Bran that he'd wouldn't walk again (In Bran's old crippled body) but that he would fly. Most thought this meant warging into birds or one of the dragons. Although now that the Night King has his very own dragon, if Bran is the Night King, he will be able to fly now.
But the Night King can walk, so wouldn't that negate the 3 eyed raven's claim that "Bran wouldn't walk again"?
Bran warged into Hodor and "walked" so by that logic he has walked again, but him actually being the Night's King requires IMO more than waging into him.
I believe it's true and there is a lot of evidence in the show to suggest it that Bran is the Night King, and the reasons he "became the Night King" and why it won't accomplish what he feels it will accomplish.
I do think killing himself might kill the Night King.
A part of me thinks the reason why the one wight they captured didn't explode when Jon struck the head white walker was so that the NK would have a wight south of the Wall. Perhaps this breaks the magic that prevents the WW from breaking through?
Wights must be able to travel south of the wall otherwise Jon would never be able to bring one back in the first place. Also, wasn't there a wight brought back to Castle Black in the beginning of the series? So, that should have pierced the magic.
In the books, the spend a lot of time talking about the Horn of [Jericho] something which can bring the Wall down. I think that is a dropped plot point for the show. The Wall is ice; maybe you don't need Bran, maybe Vyserion can huff and puff and blow the Wall down?
Viewers have already seen that Bran has the capability to warg into someone's consciousness while visiting the past; this is what he was doing when he inadvertently broke Hodor's mind. What if Bran becomes so desperate (perhaps because he feels guilty for his part in letting the White Walkers through the Wall?) that he believes the only way he can help end the Great War is to go back in time and stop the Children from ever creating the Night King to begin with?
Of course, savvy fantasy fans know how these time travel plots usually work: history is written in ink, and anything you do to try and change it will only end up causing whatever happened in the first place. But Bran, frantic to rectify the mistake he made, might forget that simple fact. And if warging back 30 years was enough to break Hodor's mind, warging back thousands of years should be more than enough to break the mind of not just the man he's trying to save… but Bran's own mind as well.
With Bran's consciousness lost inside the Night King's mind — and with the Night King's mind shattered beyond any thought other than vengeance against the beings who created him as a weapon of war — the Stark and the White Walker would truly become one.
There's foreshadowing of this twist in the scene of the Night King's origin. Bran clenches his fist, as though in pain, just as the man is about to be stabbed. When he wakes up, Bran is lying against the tree in exactly the same position as the man in the vision. Bran's first words upon awakening are to tell Leaf, "It was you," as though part of him recognized the being who stabbed him thousands of years ago. And when he asks Leaf who the Children needed to defend themselves from, she responds, "From you."...
The First Men and Children of the Forrest were enemies at first, and the First Men almost wiped them all out. They were created in desperation to save themselves, which ultimately backfired.
The First Men and Children of the Forrest were enemies at first, and the First Men almost wiped them all out. They were created in desperation to save themselves, which ultimately backfired.
agree, changes nothing with the theory though
Its a fantasy tv show.. who cares about travel time. Just enjoy it..
I mean this reviewer is seriously questioning where the white walkers got those chains from? Seriously? Who gives a fuck?
Well, that reviewer probably has a distaste for overuse of Deus ex machina. The white walkers either fabricating or having the foresight to drag along big chains for dragon recovery purposes certainly counts as one.
Its a fantasy tv show.. who cares about travel time. Just enjoy it..
Yeah, but there are limits to which the "it's a fantasy tv show" dismissal should not apply. For example, if Euron's fleet of ships flew in to kidnap Jon Snow in the midst of the battle, you wouldn't just shrug and say, "Oh, ships fly now... awesome!"
The episode basically treated summoning a dragon attack like a Call of Duty airstrike perk, which makes me wonder why Highgarden didn't take advantage while being sacked.
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O.
I mean this reviewer is seriously questioning where the white walkers got those chains from? Seriously? Who gives a fuck?
Well, that reviewer probably has a distaste for overuse of Deus ex machina. The white walkers either fabricating or having the foresight to drag along big chains for dragon recovery purposes certainly counts as one.
Stick to those excellent reality TV programs and cartoons.
Another reviewer posed the question, which is funny when you think about it, is that if the dead wights are not impervious to water, drowning when they fall into the lake and dissolving to such an extent that they could drag Jon down, weaponless and all and yet only Jon survives, how did they get down there to wrap the chains around the dragon in the first place?
Not sure about the drowning part, but if the wights can't swim (plausible) then they would just sink to the bottom as bone is denser than water. Then walk? on the bottom to chain up the dragon. I doubt the night king would care about sacrificing a few to the bottom of the sea.
Another reviewer posed the question, which is funny when you think about it, is that if the dead wights are not impervious to water, drowning when they fall into the lake and dissolving to such an extent that they could drag Jon down, weaponless and all and yet only Jon survives, how did they get down there to wrap the chains around the dragon in the first place?
Yeah, it's totally stupid and ultimately lazy and thoughtless writing, meant only to deliver a dramatic "cliffhanger" during which the seemingly-lost dragon is -- surprise!!! -- recovered by the enemy. Like we didn't see that coming. Just have the dragon crash on land to spare us the embarrassing scene in the first place.
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I love the show and will watch it to the end.
But, the whole plot from last episode was so dumb (bringing back a white walker? really?) and its bleeding into this episode.
It was dumb - really from the beginning it's been a challenge for the writers to include the wight walkers into the show in a way that makes sense. But the last two episodes did serve the purpose of making clear what the stakes are and forging important relationships that will be key later on.
heres one
Its a fantasy tv show.. who cares about travel time. Just enjoy it..
Tolkein once wrote an essay about how even fantasy has to have some sort of logic to it, in order to be successful. You can push boundaries but you have to tread carefully about breaking physical laws,
One reviewer today wrote that the success of GoT to a large extent was that it wasn't LoTR and posited that to a large extent it now is becoming LoTR and that's not a satisfying thing.
We know where dragons came from and why.
We know how the Night's King and his army were created and why.
We know how Wight's are created and killed.
We do not know how Gendry can run from the other side of the wall all the way to eastwatch, have a Maester write a message, send a raven to dragonstone, have the raven get to dragonstone and deliver the message to Dany, who contemplates her next move, then decides to hop on her dragon and save the A-team while they've been waiting the whole time on an island surrounded by a frozen lake with no food or shelter.
There is nothing wrong with questioning things like this, and yet still loving the show.
and I seriously doubt the books follow the same plot, the pacing of the show seems to have well outpaced the book pace this whole season, if not sooner.
It was certainly gratifying to see the dragon emerge from nowhere just in the nick of time and roast the wights that were basically in mid-weapon swing in a "Fuck yeah!" sense, but I still had a sour taste in my mouth from observing a half dozen men tirelessly fend off several hundred skeletons by stabbing them with daggers.
I would imagine they brought food and water with them
We do not know how Gendry can run from the other side of the wall all the way to eastwatch, have a Maester write a message, send a raven to dragonstone, have the raven get to dragonstone and deliver the message to Dany, who contemplates her next move, then decides to hop on her dragon and save the A-team while they've been waiting the whole time on an island surrounded by a frozen lake with no food or shelter.
Right. If you know you're going to eventually need to write a scene in which Jon summons Dany hoping for immediate assistance, you'd have done your characters a service by presenting them as smart enough to anticipate such an event. Maybe have Dany station a dragon and/or herself a bit closer? Hell, maybe just do away with the whole ridiculous mission to kidnap a skeleton in the first place?
The panic that consumed the team as they were about to be approached by a large undead army suggested that no one considered that idea. For someone who will apparently be counted upon as a military strategist, Jon's execution and planning of the enterprise was stupid as hell. But it's the kind of stupidity you don't hold against the character, but the writers who conceive his actions in the first place.
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We do not know how Gendry can run from the other side of the wall all the way to eastwatch, have a Maester write a message, send a raven to dragonstone, have the raven get to dragonstone and deliver the message to Dany, who contemplates her next move, then decides to hop on her dragon and save the A-team while they've been waiting the whole time on an island surrounded by a frozen lake with no food or shelter.
Right. If you know you're going to eventually need to write a scene in which Jon summons Dany hoping for immediate assistance, you'd have done your characters a service by presenting them as smart enough to anticipate such an event. Maybe have Dany station a dragon and/or herself a bit closer? Hell, maybe just do away with the whole ridiculous mission to kidnap a skeleton in the first place?
The panic that consumed the team as they were about to be approached by a large undead army suggested that no one considered that idea. For someone who will apparently be counted upon as a military strategist, Jon's execution and planning of the enterprise was stupid as hell. But it's the kind of stupidity you don't hold against the character, but the writers who conceive his actions in the first place.