they spent years making a plausible plot, one that was meticulously crafted primarily from the source material. I EXPECT quality writing and I am no longer getting it. I've invested hundreds of hours into the books, TV show, and following both online; when the writers cut corners its not only noticeable but it's really fucking lame. They are now writing down to cater to the fans, which is a shame.
I still applaud the show for a lot of things but the writing isn't very good anymore. As easy as it is for someone you to say "who cares it's just fantasy" I can just as easily say "well the writing used to make sense and now it doesn't". If you are cool with it, great. But others aren't and it's a valid stance.
I think that there is an overarching message to the story (books and show) that virtue is generally accompanied by really unfavorable stuff. Either lack of other positive character traits or, generally, a fatal outcome. Virtue is not really a good thing in the GoT world. It's kind of a cynical view.
In thee show, it doesn't help that Kit Harington is dull. I read a couple of articles complaining that the romance type scenes between Jon and Danys are tedious and there is no chemistry. But these are the two most wooden actors in existence and what we are seeing is almost pollination rather than romance.
The Jon and Dany final scene was like a soap opera
The injured but buff shirtless male protagonist professing his love for the hot female protagonist who sits bedside was cringe worthy. It's like some daytime crap.
I think that there is an overarching message to the story (books and show) that virtue is generally accompanied by really unfavorable stuff. Either lack of other positive character traits or, generally, a fatal outcome. Virtue is not really a good thing in the GoT world. It's kind of a cynical view.
In thee show, it doesn't help that Kit Harington is dull. I read a couple of articles complaining that the romance type scenes between Jon and Danys are tedious and there is no chemistry. But these are the two most wooden actors in existence and what we are seeing is almost pollination rather than romance.
I thought that was intentional Jon Snow character acting. He's always been awkward around girls (the few he's interacted with at least) - well since Ygritte I guess.
I kept thinking he'd make his move on Dany, but no, just more awkward Jon Snow male/female interactions.
But, the whole plot from last episode was so dumb (bringing back a white walker? really?) and its bleeding into this episode.
Not a white walker, a wight. I didn't have an issue with that plot point.
But the raven flying as fast as an airplane? OK.
I agree with Jerz... the introduction of the plan in the first place was pretty stupid. It was proposed as the only way that Cersei's support against the White Walkers could be secured, but it was also accepted as a foolproof way, worthy of any potential (hell, likely) sacrifices the team-beyond-the-wall would suffer. And everyone just kind of accepted it as such. I was disappointed that no one seemed to consider the mission no to be worth the risk on the grounds that
a) it may not have been possible to capture a solitary wight from what, for all anyone knew, was an army that always traveled in packs of thousands
b) Cersei's reaction to a successfully-captured wight might not exactly go as expected, and
c) Cersei's participation in the war against the White Walkers was never really convincingly established as necessary in the first place.
Keep in mind that water doesn't refreeze instantly either, especially to a point that hundreds (thousands) can walk on it. It was likely a couple days later, though surviving in the cold with little to no food that long is questionable.
I would imagine they brought food and water with them
Yes, it was on the sleds they were pulling. It's more the cold that would've (should've?) killed them, though they might've "lost" the food when they started running.
the Benjen/Jon "reunion" was by far what pissed me off the most. Jon joined the Night's Watch in large part because of his uncle, agonized over his possible death so much that his brothers used Benjen's name to lure Jon into their assassination plot, and all we get it is...."Uncle Benjen...how!?!?"
Interestingly, the showrunners repeatedly refer to Benjen as "Coldhands" during HBO's "Inside the Episode" segment. Martin has said Benjen is not Coldhands, and Coldhands has not been referenced in the show, so it's odd they would even bring that up.
is that it was Tyrion's idea. The same Tyrion who could outsmart Cersei, Varys and Littlefinger is now coming up with one dumb plan after another. It actually lends credence to Dany's suspicion that he's still on the Lannister side. He can't possibly think Cersei will team up to battle the northern threat, can he?
the Benjen/Jon "reunion" was by far what pissed me off the most. Jon joined the Night's Watch in large part because of his uncle, agonized over his possible death so much that his brothers used Benjen's name to lure Jon into their assassination plot, and all we get it is...."Uncle Benjen...how!?!?"
Interestingly, the showrunners repeatedly refer to Benjen as "Coldhands" during HBO's "Inside the Episode" segment. Martin has said Benjen is not Coldhands, and Coldhands has not been referenced in the show, so it's odd they would even bring that up.
Yea that was really lame. I mean, why even have that scene? Just have Jon get scooped up by Rhaegal or something. But you know its because they wanted to "tie up" the loose end of Benjen still being alive and Jon not having seen him before he died. Mission accomplished!
the Benjen/Jon "reunion" was by far what pissed me off the most. Jon joined the Night's Watch in large part because of his uncle, agonized over his possible death so much that his brothers used Benjen's name to lure Jon into their assassination plot, and all we get it is...."Uncle Benjen...how!?!?"
Yep... a lot of it all just seems so perfunctory at this point.
They all fell in the ice and were able to swim up and grab Tormunds legs out of the hole at one point. Mystery solved.
The chains likely came from Hardhome for people actually worrying about it. When they finally dragged the dragon out it could have been a week later. We have no idea.
When he arrived back at the wall, wouldn't slowing down a horse and expanding that time frame with another rider add to the risk?!
If you are going to apply that kind of logic, then you would also have to accept that he would have had approximately 10 seconds of survival time once he entered into the frozen water in the first place.
I haven't even talked about how weird it was that the Night King chose to throw his javelin-missile at the flying dragon several hundred yards away... instead of the closer, larger, landed, stationary dragon that people were in the process of climbing upon.
That's basically the entire point of him falling in the lake and being saved by Benjen. He didn't get on the dragon or this wouldn't have happened. So now it makes me wonder why. Stalling for dramatic effect for season 8? Or does he never ride a dragon, destroying 20+ years of theories.
I don't know but this episode made it clear they intentionally kept him off a dragon for whatever reason.
They all fell in the ice and were able to swim up and grab Tormunds legs out of the hole at one point. Mystery solved.
The chains likely came from Hardhome for people actually worrying about it. When they finally dragged the dragon out it could have been a week later. We have no idea.
If they cold swim, why would they stop and wait for hours before trying to go to the island?
I think this may have been the worst written episode of the entire series. It's really not that good. I never bought into the fanfiction argument, but that's what this was. Benjen says he can't go with Jon because there's no time? Well why not? He didn't even have to get off the horse, Jon could have just jumped on the back. My biggest complaint is the hundred pound chains used to get Viserion out of the water. I get the Night King is magical. But unless he's an actual and literal magician how do you make hundred pound chains the size of those pop up out of thin air?
I just assumed that the chains used were the kind used at that time to tow large ships or build large structures, all of which may have existed at some point north of the wall.
And again, it's safe to assume that Benjen wanted to die. He'd been roaming around half dead for years - told Jon "no time" probably just to shut him up from arguing with him.
But the chains and Benjen and the rate of flight for a raven to me just seem like minor things in relation to the important developments in the episode.
They all fell in the ice and were able to swim up and grab Tormunds legs out of the hole at one point. Mystery solved.
But this then opens up even more plot problems. If they can swim and are not affected by the ice water since they are already dead, then why did they even need to wait for the lake to refreeze to attack? If they could swim than what difference did it make? And why did the ones that fell into the lake when it initially cracked seem to disappear if they could in fact swim?
They all fell in the ice and were able to swim up and grab Tormunds legs out of the hole at one point. Mystery solved.
The chains likely came from Hardhome for people actually worrying about it. When they finally dragged the dragon out it could have been a week later. We have no idea.
If they cold swim, why would they stop and wait for hours before trying to go to the island?
sure would have made things more difficult when Snow and the Wildlings were escaping to their ships at Hardhome.
Also, let's not act like wondering about the chains is some trivial nitpick. It makes sense to pause and wonder where and how a wandering army who previously hadn't been shown to have such a large and random thing suddenly possesses it. It's the kind of thing satirized by how the campy 60's Batman would conveniently have shark repellent in his utility belt.
RE: RE: Considering Jon was almost frozen to death
When he arrived back at the wall, wouldn't slowing down a horse and expanding that time frame with another rider add to the risk?!
If you are going to apply that kind of logic, then you would also have to accept that he would have had approximately 10 seconds of survival time once he entered into the frozen water in the first place.
Maybe but the Benjen complaints are still stupid IMO. He was half dead and had already vocalized to Bran that he only wanted to take out more white walkers before he could finally die. Would people have been happier if he escorted Jon back to the wall and then went back and took a few white walkers before he died?? And again, if Jon was on the verge of death when he got back to the wall, it pretty obviously stands to reason more time= less chance of survival.
They all fell in the ice and were able to swim up and grab Tormunds legs out of the hole at one point. Mystery solved.
The chains likely came from Hardhome for people actually worrying about it. When they finally dragged the dragon out it could have been a week later. We have no idea.
If they cold swim, why would they stop and wait for hours before trying to go to the island?
Maybe because they didn't know they can swim? Or maybe they figured they were surrounded and they could come up with a better method? I can swim... you wouldn't see me jumping in the water. How smart do we want to make them?
I haven't even talked about how weird it was that the Night King chose to throw his javelin-missile at the flying dragon several hundred yards away... instead of the closer, larger, landed, stationary dragon that people were in the process of climbing upon.
Haha yeah that was ridiculous. And why did he take so long in between throwing javelins one and two? Really took his sweet time there.
then you'd think he would have been better prepared for the dragon's arrival -- he and his crew each would have been holding javelins instead of needing to dramatically retrieve them, and they likely would have captured more than one dragon.
I haven't even talked about how weird it was that the Night King chose to throw his javelin-missile at the flying dragon several hundred yards away... instead of the closer, larger, landed, stationary dragon that people were in the process of climbing upon.
Haha yeah that was ridiculous. And why did he take so long in between throwing javelins one and two? Really took his sweet time there.
Jojen knew Bran needed to find the 3 eyed raven and was important to the future, but he didn't know all the details.
I don't think the NK knew every little thing that was going to happen in that battle. He certainly didn't seem like he expected the dragons to show up.
That Westeros has two gold medalists that no one realized. Apparently Gendry is a gold mead sprinter and The Night King is a gold medal javelin thrower. Amazing.
Which dragon is more of a threat....the one stationary loading a bunch of people on the ground or the one in the air with a great tactical vantage point that's roasting thousands of soldiers and just circled back and appears to now be coming right me.... hmmm.... let's think about this...
Which dragon is more of a threat....the one stationary loading a bunch of people on the ground or the one in the air with a great tactical vantage point that's roasting thousands of soldiers and just circled back and appears to now be coming right me.... hmmm.... let's think about this...
Eh, all the living people were climbing onto one dragon and killing that dragon would've prevented their escape. Could easily argue that was the more strategic move.
You have to look at how long do you think Jon and the rest of the A-Team was stuck on that rock? Some think it's only a few hours and "magically" the ravens flew down south and the dragons flew up north in a matter of hours???
Personally, I think it was a matter of 3 days that passed.
Day 1 - Jon told Gendry to run back to the Wall to send a raven when there was there was still daylight outside. Gendry finally arrives at the Wall at sun down at the end of that first day when Davos sends the Ravens.
Plus Jon and the A-Team are protected from attacks because the ice all around the rock had broken apart and created a barrier between them and the White Walkers.
Day 2 - Following day, the group wakes up to find Thoros the Red Priest died from his zombie polar bear attack. This is also when the group stands up to stair down the Night King and Beric tells Jon that they both should make an attempt to take down the Night King as the chosen ones of the Lord of the Light. Jon says their best chance is to wait on Dany and the dragons.
This is also when the Ravens arrive at Dragonstone and Dany makes the choice to take her dragons to save Jon. So if Davos sent the ravens the previous night and Dany got them late afternoon, then it did take the ravens almost a full day to arrive there.
Day 3 - The Hound out of boredom, starts throwing rocks at the white walkers. This was, in my opinion, the biggest clue on the time lapse that occurred. The broken ice from Day 1 had fully frozen over again and allows the white walkers to now fully cross the lake. Sea water like that doesn't freeze in a matter of hours and needs a few days.
As for the dragons, you figure they'd fly extremely faster then ravens with their wingspans. So if Dany took off late afternoon of Day 2, they would have made it by morning of Day 3 in my opinion.
Of course the writers could have done a better job of relaying the time that went by but I think the time line above of 3 days is fairly reasonable.
it lends more credence to the Night King being Bran, because I don't believe the Night King fits the characteristics of a traditional greenseer.
and greenseers can warg as well, has the Night King warged at all? I can't recall off the top of my head.
Maybe? Does the disintegration of all the wights earlier in the episode when Jon killed the WW imply that the WW was warging into them?
that would mean all white walkers were greenseers and wargs, I don't think so. I think the wights just work where whatever white walker re-animates them, when that white walker is killed all the wights it has reanimated are killed (again) too.
just my assumption. I'm also assuming the Night King has different powers than the White Walkers.
none of the dragons were actually approaching the Night King
but I suppose we'll now hear arguments that he cared deeply for all his wights and that the flying dragon was killing slightly more of them than Drogon was.
it lends more credence to the Night King being Bran, because I don't believe the Night King fits the characteristics of a traditional greenseer.
and greenseers can warg as well, has the Night King warged at all? I can't recall off the top of my head.
I think the Night King warged into the ravens Bran used to spy on him last episode, kind of canceling/disconnecting Bran's connection to the ravens.
Plus wouldn't surprise me if the Night King warged into the polar bear to spy on Jon's group. Why else was there an isolated zombie bear wandering away so far from the Night King's base camp/army.
perhaps the White Walkers could have collaborated a bit and thrown multiple javelins at multiple dragons -- including the stationary one right in front of you -- in a coordinated but admittedly less-dramatic-looking attack?
Just for context and not to be a dick but it's like 2500 miles from
and I say for context because sometimes I know I don't have a great concept of how far or close these places are, especially earlier in the story when Tyrion was traveling the seven kingdoms.
Compare that to the distance from Slaver's Bay to KL and compute dragon time.
LOL well the average speed of a flying dragon, reduced by the appropriate factor for the head wind and rest room stops, makes this all fit together perfectly.
RE: none of the dragons were actually approaching the Night King
but I suppose we'll now hear arguments that he cared deeply for all his wights and that the flying dragon was killing slightly more of them than Drogon was.
Watch it again.. Viseryan clearly is making a right turn and coming towards the Knight King right as he is about to unload.
I mean, I guess the Night King was absolutely certain that he'd be able to hit the distant flying target as he knew the writers were on his side so the choice is ultimately irrelevant. But I don't see how that shot establishes the flying dragon as an impending threat and proves his choice was based on self-preservation instead of being dictated by, "We can't have him throw it at the clearly more obvious dragon because that would ultimately end the series."
Even that's a stretch. A dragon flying 100mph would still need to fly for an entire day straight to get to the Wall from Dragonstone. I'm pretty sure a human being couldn't withstand even that speed in the open air, no less for that length of time.
The thing that really bothers me is that it wouldn't have been that hard to avoid the whole thing. They could have had an awesome Helm's Deep type of siege scene that would have made sense and given the dragons enough time to get there and not be stupid. Maybe the Rangers set up some sort of way station structure for longer forays or maybe there is some kind of naturally fortified area that the Magnificent 7/A-team could have held off the wight horde for a few days. Or they could even have written a scene or two on that rock with everyone speculating about what the night king was waiting for. Anything to show a reasonable passage of time. It's comical to expect nearly 5000 miles of travel to happen in what appeared to be about 12-18 hours. That entire sequence was either a massive failure in writing or in execution.
I think Fake Aegon will try to ride Viserion and fail proving he's a fake. Euron will steal Viserion with the horn and at some point the dragon will wind up dead or it will be revealed Euron is an agent of the White Walkers and deliver the dragon to them.
So this is their way of getting to the important book plot of the White Walkers gaining control of Viserion but in a vastly different way. I doubt I'm totally correct on this but I can see some version of this playing out if and when the books are ever written.
I think Fake Aegon will try to ride Viserion and fail proving he's a fake. Euron will steal Viserion with the horn and at some point the dragon will wind up dead or it will be revealed Euron is an agent of the White Walkers and deliver the dragon to them.
So this is their way of getting to the important book plot of the White Walkers gaining control of Viserion but in a vastly different way. I doubt I'm totally correct on this but I can see some version of this playing out if and when the books are ever written.
By Fake Aegon, do you mean Young Griff? Pretty sure he's already toast...
Even that's a stretch. A dragon flying 100mph would still need to fly for an entire day straight to get to the Wall from Dragonstone. I'm pretty sure a human being couldn't withstand even that speed in the open air, no less for that length of time.
The thing that really bothers me is that it wouldn't have been that hard to avoid the whole thing. They could have had an awesome Helm's Deep type of siege scene that would have made sense and given the dragons enough time to get there and not be stupid. Maybe the Rangers set up some sort of way station structure for longer forays or maybe there is some kind of naturally fortified area that the Magnificent 7/A-team could have held off the wight horde for a few days. Or they could even have written a scene or two on that rock with everyone speculating about what the night king was waiting for. Anything to show a reasonable passage of time. It's comical to expect nearly 5000 miles of travel to happen in what appeared to be about 12-18 hours. That entire sequence was either a massive failure in writing or in execution.
Exactly. Or have them being hunted and on the run in the snow and forest for days. That's basically what happened to the Nights Watch after the Fist of the First Men.
The end result was fine. How they chose to get there was lazily done.
I still applaud the show for a lot of things but the writing isn't very good anymore. As easy as it is for someone you to say "who cares it's just fantasy" I can just as easily say "well the writing used to make sense and now it doesn't". If you are cool with it, great. But others aren't and it's a valid stance.
In thee show, it doesn't help that Kit Harington is dull. I read a couple of articles complaining that the romance type scenes between Jon and Danys are tedious and there is no chemistry. But these are the two most wooden actors in existence and what we are seeing is almost pollination rather than romance.
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the sharpest Valyrean sword in the scabbard
I think that there is an overarching message to the story (books and show) that virtue is generally accompanied by really unfavorable stuff. Either lack of other positive character traits or, generally, a fatal outcome. Virtue is not really a good thing in the GoT world. It's kind of a cynical view.
In thee show, it doesn't help that Kit Harington is dull. I read a couple of articles complaining that the romance type scenes between Jon and Danys are tedious and there is no chemistry. But these are the two most wooden actors in existence and what we are seeing is almost pollination rather than romance.
I thought that was intentional Jon Snow character acting. He's always been awkward around girls (the few he's interacted with at least) - well since Ygritte I guess.
I kept thinking he'd make his move on Dany, but no, just more awkward Jon Snow male/female interactions.
He's no Khal Drogo with the ladies.
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I love the show and will watch it to the end.
But, the whole plot from last episode was so dumb (bringing back a white walker? really?) and its bleeding into this episode.
Not a white walker, a wight. I didn't have an issue with that plot point.
But the raven flying as fast as an airplane? OK.
I agree with Jerz... the introduction of the plan in the first place was pretty stupid. It was proposed as the only way that Cersei's support against the White Walkers could be secured, but it was also accepted as a foolproof way, worthy of any potential (hell, likely) sacrifices the team-beyond-the-wall would suffer. And everyone just kind of accepted it as such. I was disappointed that no one seemed to consider the mission no to be worth the risk on the grounds that
a) it may not have been possible to capture a solitary wight from what, for all anyone knew, was an army that always traveled in packs of thousands
b) Cersei's reaction to a successfully-captured wight might not exactly go as expected, and
c) Cersei's participation in the war against the White Walkers was never really convincingly established as necessary in the first place.
I dunno.
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Keep in mind that water doesn't refreeze instantly either, especially to a point that hundreds (thousands) can walk on it. It was likely a couple days later, though surviving in the cold with little to no food that long is questionable.
I would imagine they brought food and water with them
Yes, it was on the sleds they were pulling. It's more the cold that would've (should've?) killed them, though they might've "lost" the food when they started running.
Interestingly, the showrunners repeatedly refer to Benjen as "Coldhands" during HBO's "Inside the Episode" segment. Martin has said Benjen is not Coldhands, and Coldhands has not been referenced in the show, so it's odd they would even bring that up.
Interestingly, the showrunners repeatedly refer to Benjen as "Coldhands" during HBO's "Inside the Episode" segment. Martin has said Benjen is not Coldhands, and Coldhands has not been referenced in the show, so it's odd they would even bring that up.
Yea that was really lame. I mean, why even have that scene? Just have Jon get scooped up by Rhaegal or something. But you know its because they wanted to "tie up" the loose end of Benjen still being alive and Jon not having seen him before he died. Mission accomplished!
Yep... a lot of it all just seems so perfunctory at this point.
The chains likely came from Hardhome for people actually worrying about it. When they finally dragged the dragon out it could have been a week later. We have no idea.
I don't know but this episode made it clear they intentionally kept him off a dragon for whatever reason.
The chains likely came from Hardhome for people actually worrying about it. When they finally dragged the dragon out it could have been a week later. We have no idea.
I just assumed that the chains used were the kind used at that time to tow large ships or build large structures, all of which may have existed at some point north of the wall.
And again, it's safe to assume that Benjen wanted to die. He'd been roaming around half dead for years - told Jon "no time" probably just to shut him up from arguing with him.
But the chains and Benjen and the rate of flight for a raven to me just seem like minor things in relation to the important developments in the episode.
But this then opens up even more plot problems. If they can swim and are not affected by the ice water since they are already dead, then why did they even need to wait for the lake to refreeze to attack? If they could swim than what difference did it make? And why did the ones that fell into the lake when it initially cracked seem to disappear if they could in fact swim?
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They all fell in the ice and were able to swim up and grab Tormunds legs out of the hole at one point. Mystery solved.
The chains likely came from Hardhome for people actually worrying about it. When they finally dragged the dragon out it could have been a week later. We have no idea.
If they cold swim, why would they stop and wait for hours before trying to go to the island?
Quiet you! It's fantasy. Fantasize.
Also, let's not act like wondering about the chains is some trivial nitpick. It makes sense to pause and wonder where and how a wandering army who previously hadn't been shown to have such a large and random thing suddenly possesses it. It's the kind of thing satirized by how the campy 60's Batman would conveniently have shark repellent in his utility belt.
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When he arrived back at the wall, wouldn't slowing down a horse and expanding that time frame with another rider add to the risk?!
If you are going to apply that kind of logic, then you would also have to accept that he would have had approximately 10 seconds of survival time once he entered into the frozen water in the first place.
Maybe but the Benjen complaints are still stupid IMO. He was half dead and had already vocalized to Bran that he only wanted to take out more white walkers before he could finally die. Would people have been happier if he escorted Jon back to the wall and then went back and took a few white walkers before he died?? And again, if Jon was on the verge of death when he got back to the wall, it pretty obviously stands to reason more time= less chance of survival.
If he took out the A-Team, Dany and her dragons would never have flown close enough for that to happen.
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They all fell in the ice and were able to swim up and grab Tormunds legs out of the hole at one point. Mystery solved.
The chains likely came from Hardhome for people actually worrying about it. When they finally dragged the dragon out it could have been a week later. We have no idea.
If they cold swim, why would they stop and wait for hours before trying to go to the island?
Maybe because they didn't know they can swim? Or maybe they figured they were surrounded and they could come up with a better method? I can swim... you wouldn't see me jumping in the water. How smart do we want to make them?
Haha yeah that was ridiculous. And why did he take so long in between throwing javelins one and two? Really took his sweet time there.
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I haven't even talked about how weird it was that the Night King chose to throw his javelin-missile at the flying dragon several hundred yards away... instead of the closer, larger, landed, stationary dragon that people were in the process of climbing upon.
Haha yeah that was ridiculous. And why did he take so long in between throwing javelins one and two? Really took his sweet time there.
I guess the Night King works in mysterious ways?
I don't think the NK knew every little thing that was going to happen in that battle. He certainly didn't seem like he expected the dragons to show up.
and greenseers can warg as well, has the Night King warged at all? I can't recall off the top of my head.
Eh, all the living people were climbing onto one dragon and killing that dragon would've prevented their escape. Could easily argue that was the more strategic move.
and greenseers can warg as well, has the Night King warged at all? I can't recall off the top of my head.
Maybe? Does the disintegration of all the wights earlier in the episode when Jon killed the WW imply that the WW was warging into them?
Personally, I think it was a matter of 3 days that passed.
Day 1 - Jon told Gendry to run back to the Wall to send a raven when there was there was still daylight outside. Gendry finally arrives at the Wall at sun down at the end of that first day when Davos sends the Ravens.
Plus Jon and the A-Team are protected from attacks because the ice all around the rock had broken apart and created a barrier between them and the White Walkers.
Day 2 - Following day, the group wakes up to find Thoros the Red Priest died from his zombie polar bear attack. This is also when the group stands up to stair down the Night King and Beric tells Jon that they both should make an attempt to take down the Night King as the chosen ones of the Lord of the Light. Jon says their best chance is to wait on Dany and the dragons.
This is also when the Ravens arrive at Dragonstone and Dany makes the choice to take her dragons to save Jon. So if Davos sent the ravens the previous night and Dany got them late afternoon, then it did take the ravens almost a full day to arrive there.
Day 3 - The Hound out of boredom, starts throwing rocks at the white walkers. This was, in my opinion, the biggest clue on the time lapse that occurred. The broken ice from Day 1 had fully frozen over again and allows the white walkers to now fully cross the lake. Sea water like that doesn't freeze in a matter of hours and needs a few days.
As for the dragons, you figure they'd fly extremely faster then ravens with their wingspans. So if Dany took off late afternoon of Day 2, they would have made it by morning of Day 3 in my opinion.
Of course the writers could have done a better job of relaying the time that went by but I think the time line above of 3 days is fairly reasonable.
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it lends more credence to the Night King being Bran, because I don't believe the Night King fits the characteristics of a traditional greenseer.
and greenseers can warg as well, has the Night King warged at all? I can't recall off the top of my head.
Maybe? Does the disintegration of all the wights earlier in the episode when Jon killed the WW imply that the WW was warging into them?
that would mean all white walkers were greenseers and wargs, I don't think so. I think the wights just work where whatever white walker re-animates them, when that white walker is killed all the wights it has reanimated are killed (again) too.
just my assumption. I'm also assuming the Night King has different powers than the White Walkers.
and greenseers can warg as well, has the Night King warged at all? I can't recall off the top of my head.
I think the Night King warged into the ravens Bran used to spy on him last episode, kind of canceling/disconnecting Bran's connection to the ravens.
Plus wouldn't surprise me if the Night King warged into the polar bear to spy on Jon's group. Why else was there an isolated zombie bear wandering away so far from the Night King's base camp/army.
and I say for context because sometimes I know I don't have a great concept of how far or close these places are, especially earlier in the story when Tyrion was traveling the seven kingdoms.
LOL well the average speed of a flying dragon, reduced by the appropriate factor for the head wind and rest room stops, makes this all fit together perfectly.
Watch it again.. Viseryan clearly is making a right turn and coming towards the Knight King right as he is about to unload.
I mean, I guess the Night King was absolutely certain that he'd be able to hit the distant flying target as he knew the writers were on his side so the choice is ultimately irrelevant. But I don't see how that shot establishes the flying dragon as an impending threat and proves his choice was based on self-preservation instead of being dictated by, "We can't have him throw it at the clearly more obvious dragon because that would ultimately end the series."
Even that's a stretch. A dragon flying 100mph would still need to fly for an entire day straight to get to the Wall from Dragonstone. I'm pretty sure a human being couldn't withstand even that speed in the open air, no less for that length of time.
The thing that really bothers me is that it wouldn't have been that hard to avoid the whole thing. They could have had an awesome Helm's Deep type of siege scene that would have made sense and given the dragons enough time to get there and not be stupid. Maybe the Rangers set up some sort of way station structure for longer forays or maybe there is some kind of naturally fortified area that the Magnificent 7/A-team could have held off the wight horde for a few days. Or they could even have written a scene or two on that rock with everyone speculating about what the night king was waiting for. Anything to show a reasonable passage of time. It's comical to expect nearly 5000 miles of travel to happen in what appeared to be about 12-18 hours. That entire sequence was either a massive failure in writing or in execution.
So this is their way of getting to the important book plot of the White Walkers gaining control of Viserion but in a vastly different way. I doubt I'm totally correct on this but I can see some version of this playing out if and when the books are ever written.
So this is their way of getting to the important book plot of the White Walkers gaining control of Viserion but in a vastly different way. I doubt I'm totally correct on this but I can see some version of this playing out if and when the books are ever written.
By Fake Aegon, do you mean Young Griff? Pretty sure he's already toast...
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just not a Raven or Gendry running.
Even that's a stretch. A dragon flying 100mph would still need to fly for an entire day straight to get to the Wall from Dragonstone. I'm pretty sure a human being couldn't withstand even that speed in the open air, no less for that length of time.
The thing that really bothers me is that it wouldn't have been that hard to avoid the whole thing. They could have had an awesome Helm's Deep type of siege scene that would have made sense and given the dragons enough time to get there and not be stupid. Maybe the Rangers set up some sort of way station structure for longer forays or maybe there is some kind of naturally fortified area that the Magnificent 7/A-team could have held off the wight horde for a few days. Or they could even have written a scene or two on that rock with everyone speculating about what the night king was waiting for. Anything to show a reasonable passage of time. It's comical to expect nearly 5000 miles of travel to happen in what appeared to be about 12-18 hours. That entire sequence was either a massive failure in writing or in execution.
Exactly. Or have them being hunted and on the run in the snow and forest for days. That's basically what happened to the Nights Watch after the Fist of the First Men.
The end result was fine. How they chose to get there was lazily done.