-First let me say that this really isn't about "trashing" Sandy and the job he has done
-I'm vocal about my dislike of ownership. I fully realize that a large percentage of the Mets "problems" is due to budgetary issues. Reading between the lines of Sandy's comments yesterday you should expect a lower payroll in 2018. That being said improvement doesn't have to come with spending.
I am of the belief that we need a regime change. Sandy's "patience" has been a virtue in many ways.... going forward the Mets need to be bold, they need to be open-minded, they need to be proactive and they need to willing to make moves on the fly. I do not personally feel Sandy and this FO is best equipped to partake in such a vast change in philosophy. The Mets likely need a younger, more energized person who will be willing to "tinker" more. Trades like the Hicks deal for the Yankees, Beckham for Baltimore, Dyson to Seattle. Moves like these "minor" deals that sometimes work out big.
Sandy's contract from what I read is up after the season, I've read he's going to return to the Mets, but some speculate in a different capacity from GM (maybe Team President) and one of his minions (Ricco) will be GM.
So more of the same IMO.
If they move on, I expect him to be replaced with someone who promises to do as much as he can with as little payroll as possible.
I will say Collins needs to be replaced with a younger minded manager.
Until ownership changes, I believe this will be the ride we are on.
That was then and this is now. They are lacking in talent in the upper minors, they have major holes on the big league roster. Sandy did his job and righted the ship. It's now time for someone who will be here long term with a more aggressive approach. Not making bad moves is great and all but winning franchises are proactive not reactive. This franchise is reactive. They make moves only when they have to. Last in waiver claims since Sandy got here and has to be near the bottom of the league in trades over that period as well. Things get stagnant. It happens. The Giants felt it was time to move on from a coach that won 2 Super Bowls. It's not an indictment of the man or his career. It's just time for a new voice. It happens.
And yes, you build an aging, injury prone team - you deserve to have that fall on your shoulders. The plan shifted left - and that changed everything...
I will say Collins needs to be replaced with a younger minded manager.
Until ownership changes, I believe this will be the ride we are on.
Collins is gone. But people will see the manager isn't the biggest issue here. The talent is a far bigger concern. Minor league system is now close to 100% barren so 1. Producing talent to fill in holes isn't going to happen 2. Pieces to trade for talent aren't going to be available to you.
Sandy flat out said yesterday they went over the budget Fred set. There was no "imaginary". The Mets payroll was 12th opening the season and that was "above" what Fred wanted to spend. Sandy flat out said it yesterday this isn't some made up thing.
"Injuries and poor play".... Harvey (major surgery), DeGrom (surgery), Matz (surgery), Walker (surgery), TDA (always hurt), David Wright (nuff said), Juan Lagares (always hurt), Zack Wheeler (nuff said) etc etc this idea these injuries were shocking is really ridiculous.
1. EVERYONE knew the Mets season hinged on health
2. EVERYONE noted the lack of depth should shit hit the fan.
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argument regarding the budget doesn't make any sense to me. WS and playoffs 2 years in a row. Injuries and poor play have been the thing that has derailed this team, not some imaginary budget that they didn't spend on all these available players. They didn't sign Murphy, that was a mistake, but also nobody saw his jump coming. Sandy has basically kept the same team intact - they all just got hurt.
Sandy flat out said yesterday they went over the budget Fred set. There was no "imaginary". The Mets payroll was 12th opening the season and that was "above" what Fred wanted to spend. Sandy flat out said it yesterday this isn't some made up thing.
Right I get that. But my point is, they made the WS and playoffs with what the Wilpons are willing to do. So...I just think that blaming the Wilpons doesn't really make sense in this case. They have basically the same team...everyone got fucking injured.
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argument regarding the budget doesn't make any sense to me. WS and playoffs 2 years in a row. Injuries and poor play have been the thing that has derailed this team, not some imaginary budget that they didn't spend on all these available players. They didn't sign Murphy, that was a mistake, but also nobody saw his jump coming. Sandy has basically kept the same team intact - they all just got hurt.
Sandy flat out said yesterday they went over the budget Fred set. There was no "imaginary". The Mets payroll was 12th opening the season and that was "above" what Fred wanted to spend. Sandy flat out said it yesterday this isn't some made up thing.
He basically said he over spent by 15 million with the hopes of a run and if it didn't happen he could sell off 12-15 million at the deadline.
That is why it was more important to get someone to eat contracts than getting back better prospects.
Same team? Matt Harvey might be finished, Zack Wheeler may or may not be an MLB SP, Matz? Wright? Walker is gone, Bruce is gone, Murphy is gone, Reed is gone, Grandy will be gone how is is the 2015 WS relevant? This isn't the same team that got there.
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and this is now?? It's basically the same team Dan. Everyone is injured. Prospects in the minors come and go. Sandy made trades this year to replenish the arms in the system. Does that not count for anything? Most of the very good prospects they had are on the roster now, are they not?
Same team? Matt Harvey might be finished, Zack Wheeler may or may not be an MLB SP, Matz? Wright? Walker is gone, Bruce is gone, Murphy is gone, Reed is gone, Grandy will be gone how is is the 2015 WS relevant? This isn't the same team that got there.
I meant at the beginning of this season, it was basically the same team.
1000%
It's like a NFL team. You can't have the QB, your best WR, and a few really good defenders get injured and expect to have any type of succcess. Would you blame the GM if that happened?
3. Andres Gimenez, SS
4. David Peterson, LHP
5. Justin Dunn, RHP
6. Ronny Mauricio, SS
7. Mark Vientos, SS
8. Chris Flexen, RHP
9. Thomas Szapucki, LHP (Will miss 2018)
10. Peter Alonso, 1B
that mix is not an accident.
and while no I don't blame Sandy for injuries, they cost Tom Coughlin his job, and I think they'll cost Sandy his (or should).
and TC should be a goner too.
Where is anybody disagreeing with that? Though I'm not ready to proclaim Smith a good piece. We will see but 1b has a very, very high threshold.
The "prospects" he added may or may not pan out but NONE were viewed as major gets. In fact milb.com currently ranks them #23, #29, #30 (the rest unranked) in the Mets system. He acknowledged the deals (at least in part) were to save money because they went over budget.
He held on too long with the hopes of a run and it came back to bit him.
Stop it with the thoroughly outplayed in the world series bullshit.
Familia blew game 1 and the bullpen blew two more games (helped my a Daniel Murphy error).
three of the 4 games the Mets lost they led in the 8th inning. That is not thoroughly outplayed by anyone's definition.
Agree with most of what you write, but this is bullshit.
and they hardly squeaked by into the WS. they beat a Dodgers team with Kershaw and Greinke in 5, but swept the mighty Cubs. That's hardly squeaking by.
that team was built for the post-season, and should have won the WS, the bullpen faltered.
Not trying to be jerky but what was "the best he could" with the pitching injuries? They didn't add SP's. What is this in reference to? Calling up Pill/Montero/Flexen? The rotation injuries sure helped kill the season but not really sure what "the best he could" was? They did absolutely nothing. Tommy Milone?
Obviously with some good health fortune guys like Harvey, Matz, & Wheeler could easily increase that foundation.
The issue is that you don't win by just adding up the individual stats of players. You need to build out a full team that cohesively plays a style that's better than other teams. That's where Sandy and Terry have both fallen short and a fresh perspective would be welcomed because there is no obvious way to do that. As Dan pointed out it will require the 1 trait Sandy has not shown much of - CREATIVITY.
ryan, like I said, there wasn't much that would have "saved" the season (nothing really would have) however these issues were not some sort of "shock". They came into the season with 2 pitchers without health concerns. Thor and Gsellman and didn't plan accordingly. The concern is this FO ignores waivers, ignores player for player trades (how many big league players has Sandy traded for during his entire tenure here?), ignores Rule 5 draft. They tried to trade for Brach in the off-season, were rebuffed and then settled for... Fernando Salas? A guy who was available until ST. Sandy deserves credit for what he has done but he's 70 in November and the game has moved in a different direction
Harvey, Wheeler, Wright, Matz? Every GM/fan in baseball could have seen those 4 coming. Duda (hurt every year), Cespedes missing time (every year), Lagares (every year), Walker coming off back surgery (luckily his injuries were not back related but was a health risk), the injuries were extreme but not unforeseen in the least.
That, ultimately, is what separates the teams in both reality and in public perception. It drives the men who run the Mets crazy that they are forever taking bullets that seem to never get aimed at the Yankees. But there’s a reason for that: even in a time when Steinbrenner has tried (and failed) to get under the luxury-tax threshold, and spoken openly about that, there is never a question about his commitment.
And if ever there would be, there are always the six magic words: “That’s always the mindset for us.”
The Mets may not still be enmeshed as deeply in their Madoff problems, but there is still a sense, honestly earned, that they would prefer savings to winnings. And this year has done nothing to change the way people look at the Mets.
Or the Yankees too, for that matter. Good for them. Not so good for the Mets.
The better franchises in this sport are often competitive for longer stretches and have smaller downtime. A massive percentage of the Mets' existence is "down years" - we get one good year for every 5-6 crappy ones.
Enough is e-fucking-nough.
The better franchises in this sport are often competitive for longer stretches and have smaller downtime. A massive percentage of the Mets' existence is "down years" - we get one good year for every 5-6 crappy ones.
Enough is e-fucking-nough.
1000% spot on. They never build for the long haul.
It appears that ownership takes a significant role in the baseball decisions, and they place unreasonable constraints on the GM.
What complicates the decision making process is that the ownership handles the Mets like a small market team. The budget is established by the ownership. It appears that the budget comes first and that winning is secondary. The Mets are always saying that they will spend more if the attendance increases. It appears that good teams spend the money to win and then the attendance increases.
Look at what the Dodgers have done. They have the highest payroll, and they have the most misses in free agency, but the misses have not deterred them from spending money to win. Not only do they spend money at the Major League level, but they also outspend the other teams in scouting and in the minors.
It appears that ownership takes a significant role in the baseball decisions, and they place unreasonable constraints on the GM.
What complicates the decision making process is that the ownership handles the Mets like a small market team. The budget is established by the ownership. It appears that the budget comes first and that winning is secondary. The Mets are always saying that they will spend more if the attendance increases. It appears that good teams spend the money to win and then the attendance increases.
Look at what the Dodgers have done. They have the highest payroll, and they have the most misses in free agency, but the misses have not deterred them from spending money to win. Not only do they spend money at the Major League level, but they also outspend the other teams in scouting and in the minors.
Good points. But consider that budgets also restrict minor-league development & talent acquisition. The Mets might need more scouts. Their pay scale for administrative staffs could be subpar. Those staffs might be threadbare. Sandy operated under attrition model strategies before . He had pretty much the same deal of success that he's had with the Mets.
The rotation didn't stay healthy. However it's not a legitimate gripe to say "he should have seen it coming ." I have a friend who was let go by Jocketty , when he was running the Cardinals. Jock told him that too many of the pitchers he gave high grades to ended up having surgeries. Jock said something like 15%. ( This was back a ways) My friend's response ; "15%? That's probably a good percentage these days. Advanced diagnostic capabilities = more shut downs and surgeries. Guys throw too hard now. Starters try to hump up on every pitch instead of saving 5-6 of those for the whole game. They are pitching like the one-inning wonders in the Pen, going for the K9 instead of letting the defense help them get hitters out.
This isn't my team so it's just an observation from an objective fan. Collins has been terrible this season. He's played to a short hand . That will get to you as Baltimore and Toronto are finding out. But he's in over his head. He seems very tired .
I think Sandy will be back. The pitching staff is better than the results indicate. This is a sloppy, lazy team running the bases. Field management and coaching are definitely an issue that must be addressed .
It appears that ownership takes a significant role in the baseball decisions, and they place unreasonable constraints on the GM.
What complicates the decision making process is that the ownership handles the Mets like a small market team. The budget is established by the ownership. It appears that the budget comes first and that winning is secondary. The Mets are always saying that they will spend more if the attendance increases. It appears that good teams spend the money to win and then the attendance increases.
Look at what the Dodgers have done. They have the highest payroll, and they have the most misses in free agency, but the misses have not deterred them from spending money to win. Not only do they spend money at the Major League level, but they also outspend the other teams in scouting and in the minors.
This is one of my biggest issues with the approach.
It's ass-backwards.
You don't tell your fans "hey, come to the park and buy stuff and then we'll reward you by spending that money on building a better team"
You spend the money on the team first, put a winner on the field, and THEN the fans show up and create profit.
It drives me fucking crazy that they think it should work the other way around. They don't deserve that type of loyalty from us.
Put a good baseball team on the field for more than 1 year at a time, and we'll all be at the park. There is no shortage of Mets fans - the park is crazy when the team is good. There was so much buzz down the stretch in 2015... the series against WSH when things really started to kick into high gear was amazing. The energy in the park was palpable on TV.
I don't understand how ownership can't identify that and understand that if they spent to build a more sustainable winner, fans will come in droves.
The better franchises in this sport are often competitive for longer stretches and have smaller downtime. A massive percentage of the Mets' existence is "down years" - we get one good year for every 5-6 crappy ones.
Enough is e-fucking-nough.
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Approach needs to change, ownership needs to change (not happening) - a lot of things need to change. This team is never competitive for more than a year or two in a row.
The better franchises in this sport are often competitive for longer stretches and have smaller downtime. A massive percentage of the Mets' existence is "down years" - we get one good year for every 5-6 crappy ones.
Enough is e-fucking-nough.
. This is true but this team was not built for a 1-2 year peak. Look around baseball. Teams like the Red Sox and Giants are considered to be extremely well run. That doesn't mean they both haven't had multiple years lately where everything goes to shit. Sometimes it can't be helped. Also, look at the 2000 and 2006 teams. We went after aging vets at the end of their primes. Guys like Zeile, Ventura, Leiter, Delgado, Wagner, Pedro, ect... this team is decidedly different whether it works out or not. The entire rotation and lineup is young. Our top prospects are just now hitting the show. Those teams had be torn down shortly after. I don't see that with this team. If guys can't stay healthy? That's another story.
The Red Sox have won THREE World Series' in the last 15 years. I don't think fans are going to care about a couple of down years when that's the case. And the Sox are very competitive much more often than they have bad years.
They have a bunch of young studs... Benintendi, Devers, Betts, Bogaerts, etc. They're a very well-run team. I'd trade places with them in less than one second.
SF also has won 3 WS' in the last 10 years (less than that)
If the Mets had been winning chips like that, I'd hardly have any problem with their approach.
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On the broadcast last night they were asking why in the world Granderson was still on the Mets and not on a contender.
They suspected he'd be dealt any day now.
And the down years are less frequent because of the way they're run. The Mets are not run nearly as well as the Red Sox.
This isn't a 1 off for the Mets. It's right in line with what's been going on for 30 years now. This team is never sustainably competitive.
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Is a true class act. Kind of weird timing to do this (being dealt?) Link - ( New Window )
On the broadcast last night they were asking why in the world Granderson was still on the Mets and not on a contender.
They suspected he'd be dealt any day now.
He's such a good guy I'd almost just do it as a favor but it'll also open up PT for Nimmo and... save Fred $$. We need to see what Nimmo is/isn't. Collins threw him out there back to back games and he stunk it up 0/7 with 5 k's. We need to know if he's a guy we can rely on for 2 weeks, 3 weeks, if he's a guy who can stay healthy etc.
We have two of the top 10 aces in baseball heading up our staff next year, a world class closer, and a young core lineup that will likely be supplemented with a couple key free agents.
Nobody has to agree with me, but I don't feel badly about our current direction or situation at all. There are things that bug me. Ive never been a Terry fan. I'm not a Wilpon fan (although they've been better lately), I'm fed up with the injuries. Our system could be a little better (to be fair we did just graduate a ton of talent) I still believe Sandy has been much more part of the solution than everything else surrounding the Mets.
The Pitching staff turned into a shambles. The weak bullpen was wrecked by Terry once he lost his Closer, he burnt out the BP in the first month of the season.
The regular position players all were hurt at one time or another this year. That's not just Bad Luck.
If they were able to put their so-called Regular 8 on the field, as intended...they may have had a chance.
And the down years are less frequent because of the way they're run. The Mets are not run nearly as well as the Red Sox.
This isn't a 1 off for the Mets. It's right in line with what's been going on for 30 years now. This team is never sustainably competitive.
Yeah. I get it. But I still feel your focused on a front office approach. My point was much more isolated. Basically, the best teams in baseball can go to shit in any given year. Injuries are usually the culprit. Maybe that happened to the Mets this year, maybe not.
A down year can happen to any team in baseball, even the best ones. I agree. But I think the Mets' was probably easier to see coming in retrospect because of the way the team was constructed - and I think it would be a mistake to say "let's just get these guys healthy and try again next year" because I think that's going to lead us right back down this same road.
This is also a bit of hindsight on my behalf because I did think this was a 90+ game winner in March. But the more I thought about it and saw how it played out, the more I realized how the approach lacked foresight and was flawed and am worried we're going to make this same mistake again going into next year.
I love David Wright, but they were insane to give him that contract...they should have moved on from him and Reyes at the same time.
Decisions with this team aren't made with baseball first and foremost in mind. It's about PR and an ability to sell the product. Awful.
Way to much respect to have pulled the trigger right before playing Yankees.
Nelson Cruz (a DH)
Ian Kinsler
Grandy
Brandon Phillips
That's it!
- letting Murphy leave (simply unforgivable)
- trying to trade for Carlos Gomez (his best deal wasn't first choice)
- Planning on playinglast year without cespedes. He got absurdly lucky that cespedes fell into his lap, we were going to start the season with a center fielder we released half way through the year.
- refusal to spend on bullpen. He has habitually tried to get by with mediocre relievers going back to Francisco.
- not trading Reyes when he knew he wasn't going to resign him
- drafting cechini - everyone knew he was going to stink and he has done nothing to prove us wrong
Not sure how much of that is Wilpon induced but Sandy has done some genius things and he has done a fleet of the dumbest things imaginable.
I love David Wright, but they were insane to give him that contract...they should have moved on from him and Reyes at the same time.
Decisions with this team aren't made with baseball first and foremost in mind. It's about PR and an ability to sell the product. Awful.
I don't think Syndergaard is an "asshole" or at all comparable to Harvey. I also don't have much of an issue with the team marketing their players.
It's the way they're constructing the rosters and their lack of an aggressive approach to acquire international talent that is the biggest culprit in my opinion as well as the frugality that always factors into the baseball decisions made at the MLB level.
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I think the guy just wants to pitch.
I think the guy just wants to pitch.
That's the same shit people said about Harvey until he removed all doubt.
And while I'm far from an expert, as far as I can tell there is a difference between throwing 100 MPH for 6 innings and actually pitching.
Were any of these guys showing signs of actually learning how to pitch, and being able to deal with days that they didn't have their best stuff?
So frustrating.
Noah was/is becoming a fantastic pitcher. He's not just a flamethrower. The slider he's developed is a plus pitch. He had the lowest FIP in the Majors in 2016. He went 7, struck out 10 and allowed 0 runs in the biggest game we played last year.
deGrom seems to be the guy who does the best when he doesn't have his best stuff - but that's not easy to teach.
Once the season started, his velocity crept down and the break on his pitches diminished. His stuff turned from nasty to hittable really fast. Has anyone heard anything about an injury with him?
Once the season started, his velocity crept down and the break on his pitches diminished. His stuff turned from nasty to hittable really fast. Has anyone heard anything about an injury with him?
Stuff sure hasn't looked the same in any way. Makes you think he's been pitching hurt.
A down year can happen to any team in baseball, even the best ones. I agree. But I think the Mets' was probably easier to see coming in retrospect because of the way the team was constructed - and I think it would be a mistake to say "let's just get these guys healthy and try again next year" because I think that's going to lead us right back down this same road.
This is also a bit of hindsight on my behalf because I did think this was a 90+ game winner in March. But the more I thought about it and saw how it played out, the more I realized how the approach lacked foresight and was flawed and am worried we're going to make this same mistake again going into next year.
Good post. I kind of always felt like the team was fluid though. Our biggest injuries this year weren't to guys you expected injuries from or players that were normally hurt (Thor, Cespedes, Familia) but more than that guys like Walker, Cabrera, and Duda were placeholders until you get to Rosario, Smith, ect. I feel like we kind of got caught with our pants down a little this year because our top prospects were close but not really ready and our vet placeholders were injured or ineffective on top of the other Big 3 being out. In short, things compounded this year in a way that none of us could have expected but it's not the end of the line. There is talented youth littered all throughout the team.
Dan, Hicks is a career 230 hitter. I think everyone needs to take it easy with him.
There was nowhere to put Turner and he was a below replacement level player on the Mets. Even as a utility guy and Flores is better in that role than Turner was as a Met.
Good riddance was my thought when he left. Also fully admit I hated the mere site of him.
To look back a few years later and say how could they let that 29 year old journeyman go is second guessing at it's worst.
He has a ridiculous .434 OBP this year, more than 110 points higher than any of his Mets seasons.
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remember 2 of the best players on the Yankees were small trades (Didi/Hicks) and neither cost much in terms of talent (and didn't cost money). The Dodgers for all of their money... scooped up Turner, added Chris Taylor for "nothing", sold high on a pitching prospect (De Leon) to add a good cost controlled regular in Forsythe etc. The Mets haven't really shown a willingness/ability to make such moves.
Dan, Hicks is a career 230 hitter. I think everyone needs to take it easy with him.
Who cares what his career average is? He's been worth 2.8 fWAR for the equivalent of Kevin Plawecki (JR Murphy). His career average has zero relevance to it being a fantastic zero risk gamble that paid off. 1.5 fWAR over 90 games with the Twins, was a former high pick and the Yankees took a shot. He's inarguably been one of the Yankees best players this season.
There was nowhere to put Turner and he was a below replacement level player on the Mets. Even as a utility guy and Flores is better in that role than Turner was as a Met.
Good riddance was my thought when he left. Also fully admit I hated the mere site of him.
To look back a few years later and say how could they let that 29 year old journeyman go is second guessing at it's worst.
He has a ridiculous .434 OBP this year, more than 110 points higher than any of his Mets seasons.
PJ is this toward me? I didn't blame Sandy Alderson for Justin Turner. I gave the Dodgers CREDIT for Justin Turner and Chris Taylor etc etc.
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remember 2 of the best players on the Yankees were small trades (Didi/Hicks) and neither cost much in terms of talent (and didn't cost money). The Dodgers for all of their money... scooped up Turner, added Chris Taylor for "nothing", sold high on a pitching prospect (De Leon) to add a good cost controlled regular in Forsythe etc. The Mets haven't really shown a willingness/ability to make such moves.
Dan, Hicks is a career 230 hitter. I think everyone needs to take it easy with him.
ryan, are you telling me if Sandy deals Plawecki for a guy who in his age 27 season has a big year (but previously wasn't very good) you won't be giving him big time credit and telling people to "take it easy" with giving him credit? I find that very, very hard to believe.
However, I think you're right on the money as far as making smaller scale moves with potentially rewarding yields.
ryan, are you telling me if Sandy deals Plawecki for a guy who in his age 27 season has a big year (but previously wasn't very good) you won't be giving him big time credit and telling people to "take it easy" with giving him credit? I find that very, very hard to believe.
EHHHhhhh Hemmmmm <clears throat>
FIREABLE OFFENSE!!!!!!!!!
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for Turner is really revisionist history and 20/20 hind sight. The double whammy of 2nd guessing.
There was nowhere to put Turner and he was a below replacement level player on the Mets. Even as a utility guy and Flores is better in that role than Turner was as a Met.
Good riddance was my thought when he left. Also fully admit I hated the mere site of him.
To look back a few years later and say how could they let that 29 year old journeyman go is second guessing at it's worst.
He has a ridiculous .434 OBP this year, more than 110 points higher than any of his Mets seasons.
PJ is this toward me? I didn't blame Sandy Alderson for Justin Turner. I gave the Dodgers CREDIT for Justin Turner and Chris Taylor etc etc.
Not you, bhill:
bhill410 : 12:17 pm : link : reply
- turner
- letting Murphy leave (simply unforgivable) .........
A lot of Mets fans hate when you bring up Turner and Murphy but those were two huge mistakes. Especially letting Murphy go to your division rival
Then just way too many poor signings of guys like De Aza, Salas , Francisco etc
He is also the one who kept Collins around for 7 years
That said, the Wilpons have a terrible record in hiring GMs, so if they are going to put someone like Ricco in charge, I would just as soon have Sandy
There was nowhere to put Turner and he was a below replacement level player on the Mets. Even as a utility guy and Flores is better in that role than Turner was as a Met.
Good riddance was my thought when he left. Also fully admit I hated the mere site of him.
To look back a few years later and say how could they let that 29 year old journeyman go is second guessing at it's worst.
He has a ridiculous .434 OBP this year, more than 110 points higher than any of his Mets seasons.
I think Turner was let go because Mets did not want to offer him arbitration.So basically they were trying to save the 1.5 million that he would cost over a minor leaguer.
I think it was about money not having a place for him. Sandy made a mistake but really ownership has to take some of the blame when the GM has to release a middle infielder who .280 to save a measly 1.5 million
I also feel like Sandy has hit on those guys once in a while anyway. Marlon Byrd was acquired for nothing and he turned into Dilson Herrera who turned into Jay Bruce who's now turned into a reliever prospect under control for 6-7 more years. That's some payoff. It happens but it shouldn't be expected.
I think the answer is that a lot of posters had no problem letting Murphy go, so they think it is "second guessing" when you criticize the move. But if you really wanted Murphy resigned, then you see it as an unbelievably bad move. So I think it really depends on your perspective.
Turner and Murphy go in the negative column and Reed and Thor in the positive column
You can always justify every move. It is not like Sandy is a dolt. He had good reasons for every move. But you don't get credit for the thinking behind moves, you get credit if they work.
I also feel like Sandy has hit on those guys once in a while anyway. Marlon Byrd was acquired for nothing and he turned into Dilson Herrera who turned into Jay Bruce who's now turned into a reliever prospect under control for 6-7 more years. That's some payoff. It happens but it shouldn't be expected.
All due respect but "reliever prospect under control" implies he got an actual prospect. The kid he got for Jay Bruce is in A-ball at 22 years old with a 5.00 era 1.52 whip and over his last 10 appearances....12 innings 25 hits 8 walks 13 k's 12.00 era. You phrase it as if he's a guy who is 1. good bet to be with the Mets EVER 2. His years of control are important because he's going to be expensive at some point. If he does well in AA it would be a surprise.
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ryan, are you telling me if Sandy deals Plawecki for a guy who in his age 27 season has a big year (but previously wasn't very good) you won't be giving him big time credit and telling people to "take it easy" with giving him credit? I find that very, very hard to believe.
EHHHhhhh Hemmmmm <clears throat>
FIREABLE OFFENSE!!!!!!!!!
Shecky, admit it once and for all, you ARE Kevin Plawecki lol
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There are talent evaluators all over the league that are smarter than any of us that pass when these guys are on the scrap heap. Every once in a while those guys pay off, most of the time they don't. Blaming a GM for not hitting the lottery on a scrap heap guy when 29 other teams also didn't show much interest is kind of weak IMO (not referring to anyone here)
I also feel like Sandy has hit on those guys once in a while anyway. Marlon Byrd was acquired for nothing and he turned into Dilson Herrera who turned into Jay Bruce who's now turned into a reliever prospect under control for 6-7 more years. That's some payoff. It happens but it shouldn't be expected.
All due respect but "reliever prospect under control" implies he got an actual prospect. The kid he got for Jay Bruce is in A-ball at 22 years old with a 5.00 era 1.52 whip and over his last 10 appearances....12 innings 25 hits 8 walks 13 k's 12.00 era. You phrase it as if he's a guy who is 1. good bet to be with the Mets EVER 2. His years of control are important because he's going to be expensive at some point. If he does well in AA it would be a surprise.
Ok well we don't know how that's going to work out yet... change my response to "a theoretical prospect" and keep everything else the same. I think it's safe to assume Herrera/Bruce already paid for Byrd's 500k contract 20 times over regardless of the reliever.
Shecky, admit it once and for all, you ARE Kevin Plawecki lol
Kevin Plawshecki
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for Turner is really revisionist history and 20/20 hind sight. The double whammy of 2nd guessing.
There was nowhere to put Turner and he was a below replacement level player on the Mets. Even as a utility guy and Flores is better in that role than Turner was as a Met.
Good riddance was my thought when he left. Also fully admit I hated the mere site of him.
To look back a few years later and say how could they let that 29 year old journeyman go is second guessing at it's worst.
He has a ridiculous .434 OBP this year, more than 110 points higher than any of his Mets seasons.
I think Turner was let go because Mets did not want to offer him arbitration.So basically they were trying to save the 1.5 million that he would cost over a minor leaguer.
I think it was about money not having a place for him. Sandy made a mistake but really ownership has to take some of the blame when the GM has to release a middle infielder who .280 to save a measly 1.5 million
Turner was 29 years old and could not crack a mediocre Mets lineup. It was not about money. Normally I don't believe anything from a front office and I'm not sure I believe this excuse about non-tendering Turner, but I do believe the last sentence from Sandy.
When asked about the decision Sunday, Mets manager Sandy Alderson did not address Turner's situation directly.
"Don’t assume every non-tender is a function of money," Alderson said.
Turner was unemployed when the Mets non-tendered him until almost spring training. So, it's not like the baseball world responded with "holy shit, the Mets non-tendered Justin Turner" they responded when oh well that guy is pretty mediocre anyway, though he can play multiple positions (though none well) and is a decent bat off the bench.
2015 and beyond Justin Turner is not the same as 2013 and before Justin Turner.
You can ask yourself why the Dodgers were able to get Turner to play so much better than the three organizations Turner was part of before the Dodgers, but blaming Sandy is simply Monday morning quarterbacking.
The Orioles flat out waived Turner when he was per-arbitration eligible. The Reds included him as a throw-in in a trade for Ramon Hernandez.
Lucky for you Sandy said he wants to get a better look at Reynolds so be prepared!!
(Turner was a MUCH better minor league hitter than Reynolds by the way, nobody saw THIS coming but Turner looked like he could be a solid MLB hitter while in the minors, Reynolds not so much).
I actually was pretty angry when they dumped Turner. I had NO idea he would be this good at all, I'd be lying if I said otherwise. I just knew the backstory to Turner's dumping and found it low class they way they shit on him through the media. Seemed like a Red Sox move.
And if anyone thinks that they can judge the trades that Sandy made this year at this point, then that would be extremely dumb.
If Mets injury fortune turns around even just a little bit, they will be much improved and we can go from there.
And no, you can't just toss aside the WS and playoff appearance. He traded for players that helped get them there and are now cornerstones of the franchise.
And if anyone thinks that they can judge the trades that Sandy made this year at this point, then that would be extremely dumb.
If Mets injury fortune turns around even just a little bit, they will be much improved and we can go from there.
The "other" guys they added are different levels of actual "prospects". Ryder Ryan is not. He's a guy who throws hard who is already 22 and has been absolutely awful in A ball. To call him a "prospect" is the same as calling every single minor league a "prospect".
Not that Murphy would be a good option at 3B, he's not a good option at 2B defensively, he would have been a consistent presence in the lineup.
and his leaving sort of coincided with the whole spinal stenosis thing.
Ryan has definitely struggled this year but he was named an all star at midseason. He's a high ceiling strikeout guy at best but yes, he might ultimately not be good, just like anyone else in the minors.
Doing anything other than waiting it out to see if these guys develop is just utterly ridiculous.
@keithlaw anything positive to say on Ryder ryan
keithlaw Retweeted Ryan Brodie
Teflon Terry can't play him over Conforto
Ryan has definitely struggled this year but he was named an all star at midseason. He's a high ceiling strikeout guy at best but yes, he might ultimately not be good, just like anyone else in the minors.
Doing anything other than waiting it out to see if these guys develop is just utterly ridiculous.
Bust? Stop making things up. The guy has been AWFUL. I'm stating facts. But if he's a "prospect" then every single minor leaguer is a prospect right? What differentiates prospect from minor leaguer if not the numbers?
What? He's 22 getting decimated in A-ball. Age when it comes to level in the minors is absolutely relevant. PS, Hicks posted 1.5 fWAR over 90 games his final year with the Twins, which is why the Yankees took a shot on him, they were right. 22 in A-ball and a player not hitting at the MLB level until 27 are 2 totally unrelated things and a BIZARRE take.
With the minors, I think if you can add 2-3 farm guys to your roster year over year, that's pretty good.
Age is beyond relevant when it comes to minor leaguers and the level they play. If you can't see that I don't know what to tell you. Convenient you didn't respond to my hypothetical where Plawecki is dealt for Profar, Profar puts up a big 2018, you'd be telling people to hold their horses on Profar? Career .229 hitter and all? If Sandy traded Plawecki for Kolten Wong pre-2017, Wong posts his current 2017 season .846 OPS, you'd be saying "guys, don't give Sandy credit yet, Wong is 26 and career a .248 hitter?" yeah okay.
You don't think it's relevant that the guy is getting lit up by A ball hitting?
@keithlaw anything positive to say on Ryder ryan
keithlaw Retweeted Ryan Brodie
Teflon Terry can't play him over Conforto
LOL, Law still has finger on the pulse of the Mets. Ask him about Tebow.
So your stance is every minor leaguer is a prospect? That's your right. Thanks for the clarification.
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I understand your a stats guy, but I just don't have any interest arguing stats about a guy who has barely played in the minors. It's pointless.
You don't think it's relevant that the guy is getting lit up by A ball hitting?
I'm saying give the guy a minute in the Mets organization before we throw him in the garbage.
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Ryan Brodie @ItsChodezzzz
@keithlaw anything positive to say on Ryder ryan
keithlaw Retweeted Ryan Brodie
Teflon Terry can't play him over Conforto
LOL, Law still has finger on the pulse of the Mets. Ask him about Tebow.
Tebow is ..3 for his last 32, 6 for his last 51 with 19 k's. If there were any time for Law to want to talk about Tebow now would likely be that time lol
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I understand your a stats guy, but I just don't have any interest arguing stats about a guy who has barely played in the minors. It's pointless.
So your stance is every minor leaguer is a prospect? That's your right. Thanks for the clarification.
No, I'm saying the guys that Alderson traded for could end up being good, or they could end up sucking. But to say that any of us have any clue what that outcome will be, would be a lie.
I mean hey, Aaron Hicks is suddenly good at age 27. These things happen.
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In comment 13563660 DanMetroMan said:
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Ryan Brodie @ItsChodezzzz
@keithlaw anything positive to say on Ryder ryan
keithlaw Retweeted Ryan Brodie
Teflon Terry can't play him over Conforto
LOL, Law still has finger on the pulse of the Mets. Ask him about Tebow.
Tebow is ..3 for his last 32, 6 for his last 51 with 19 k's. If there were any time for Law to want to talk about Tebow now would likely be that time lol
Oh yeah, and to me it's irrelevant how good or bad Tebow does, I just love his reaction.
With the minors, I think if you can add 2-3 farm guys to your roster year over year, that's pretty good.
So you think baseball america, fangraphs and baseball prospectus (and today minorleagueball.com) all saying the system is very poor right now aren't being "patient" enough? No. The system is very thin right now and any neutral observer would agree. Top 10 prospect list is going to be very ugly opening day.
If Sandy didn't make any moves, you guys would be up in arms about that as well.
This notion that there were somehow amazingly better offers out there for the players the Mets got is a joke. You think Alderson is deliberately trying to make the farm system worse?
BA
3. David Peterson, LHP
4. Justin Dunn, RHP (awful year)
5. Andres Gimenez, SS
6. Tomas Nido, C
7. Thomas Szapucki, LHP (will miss next year)
8. Brandon Nimmo, OF
9. Merandy Gonzalez, RHP (Traded)
10. Chris Flexen, RHP
FG
3. Andres Gimenez, SS
4. David Peterson, LHP
5. Justin Dunn, RHP (awful year)
6. Ronny Mauricio, SS (likely won't even play in this country next year, and if he does it'll be GCL)
7. Mark Vientos, SS
8. Chris Flexen, RHP
9. Thomas Szapucki, LHP (miss the year)
10. Peter Alonso, 1B
That being said, Sandy did the best he could with the trades that were out there. What else is there to say? The Mets roster as it stands now is a mix of injured talented pitchers, young farm guys, and Cespedes.
If Sandy didn't make any moves, you guys would be up in arms about that as well.
This notion that there were somehow amazingly better offers out there for the players the Mets got is a joke. You think Alderson is deliberately trying to make the farm system worse?
Sandy more than implied money being saved was at least part of the equation in these deals so it is very believable they could have received more if that wasn't a prerequisite. We will never know.
Cabrera 2B
Conforto CF
Céspedes LF
Smith 1B
Rosario SS
d’Arnaud C
Reynolds 3B
Matz LHP
This fucking team.
So you think it's a good thing that all we had to deal at the deadline is guys that were worth nothing? Isn't that Sandy's fault for putting together a bad team with little of value to restock the system?
Look at how the Yankees restocked their system last year. Even when they wern't contending they had assets on the roster and made savvy moves to reload.
I'd like Lev'eon Bell on the Giants. Is that Reese's fault we don't have him?
We are in 2017 and talking about what's best for 2018 an onward. Dan's post wasn't meant to kill Sandy, it was to advocate for another path forward.
Coughlin did a lot more for the Giants than Sandy did for the Mets and wasn't awarded a lifetime job.
If you don't think that age is relevant in the minor leagues then you clearly don't follow it closely.
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Ryan is "already 22" ...when you just were making the point that Alderson should go after more guys like Hicks...who is 27...and hadn't shown anything at all in the majors before the Yankees traded for him.
If you don't think that age is relevant in the minor leagues then you clearly don't follow it closely.
Not getting in the argument either way but this is Ryans first year ever pitching in a full season. He was a position player in college. Kind of hard to fault the age in this scenario. He very well could amount to nothing though. Sandy saw something he liked. I'm willing to see it develop a little more.
Makes absolutely no sense and then we will go into next year "what if" "maybe" etc. Still 6 weeks left but lets get him in there. I keep repeating this but it's not just about being able to start him once a week.. what if Cespedes goes on the DL, is Nimmo a guy you can run out there for 2-3 weeks? Is he a guy whose body will stand up to playing often? Lets find out.
Maybe they think they are about to trade Granderson? Other than that I have no idea.
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Not one game the whole series? Ugh.
Maybe they think they are about to trade Granderson? Other than that I have no idea.
Has to be the reason but Nimmo can't even get in one day out of 4? I think most teams know what they are going to get in Granderson. Hell, give Cespedes a day off. Do we need him playing every day for something?
Junior Wilpon could not run a Dairy Queen let alone an MLB franchise.
TJ for everyone. mets got a group discount
TC has to play "his guys"
I viewed him as a placeholder but agree he has hung on too long. He had guys who played well and hard for him, but he was not a good gameday manager. Of course sandy let those clubhouse guys walk.
I also blame sandy for letting Reyes walk at his peak for value for nothing. I had not problem with not resigning him but never understood why we didn't try to trade him when we knew we weren't resigning him.
All that said, do you have any confidence in Alderson's to hire a suitable replacement for Collins?
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...he was a bad hire from day one and he's only gotten worse.
I viewed him as a placeholder but agree he has hung on too long. He had guys who played well and hard for him, but he was not a good gameday manager. Of course sandy let those clubhouse guys walk.
I also blame sandy for letting Reyes walk at his peak for value for nothing. I had not problem with not resigning him but never understood why we didn't try to trade him when we knew we weren't resigning him.
All that said, do you have any confidence in Alderson's to hire a suitable replacement for Collins?
The replacement will likely be someone like Hale/Melvin. 100% someone with some level of upper level experience and almost certainly not a "young" guy.
As of right now they would be picking 7th. Oakland is sitting in the 5 spot at 53-68, the Mets are 53-66, Tigers 53-67, The Reds have 5 more losses so realistically the Mets will be picking 5-9.
So they aren't going to give Cecchini a look (a guy they fucking picked in the first round) so appease Cabrera? Instead, they are going to play a guy with a 74 career wRC at 3B. Maybe this team really does need a complete overhaul in the front office and on field management.
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Mets have confirmed Reynolds will be "the" 3b right now. All I can guess is they aren't particularly high on Cecchini and/or Cabrera was only willing to play 3b when he thought he might be traded and they don't think Cecchini can handle 3b in a passable way.
So they aren't going to give Cecchini a look (a guy they fucking picked in the first round) so appease Cabrera? Instead, they are going to play a guy with a 74 career wRC at 3B. Maybe this team really does need a complete overhaul in the front office and on field management.
They haven't said it's because of Cabrera but one can only assume. Cecchini can't play 3b so now he won't be playing? Sure seems like Cabrera refuses to move over there so Reynolds is the only option.