-First let me say that this really isn't about "trashing" Sandy and the job he has done
-I'm vocal about my dislike of ownership. I fully realize that a large percentage of the Mets "problems" is due to budgetary issues. Reading between the lines of Sandy's comments yesterday you should expect a lower payroll in 2018. That being said improvement doesn't have to come with spending.
I am of the belief that we need a regime change. Sandy's "patience" has been a virtue in many ways.... going forward the Mets need to be bold, they need to be open-minded, they need to be proactive and they need to willing to make moves on the fly. I do not personally feel Sandy and this FO is best equipped to partake in such a vast change in philosophy. The Mets likely need a younger, more energized person who will be willing to "tinker" more. Trades like the Hicks deal for the Yankees, Beckham for Baltimore, Dyson to Seattle. Moves like these "minor" deals that sometimes work out big.
Sandy's contract from what I read is up after the season, I've read he's going to return to the Mets, but some speculate in a different capacity from GM (maybe Team President) and one of his minions (Ricco) will be GM.
So more of the same IMO.
If they move on, I expect him to be replaced with someone who promises to do as much as he can with as little payroll as possible.
I will say Collins needs to be replaced with a younger minded manager.
Until ownership changes, I believe this will be the ride we are on.
That was then and this is now. They are lacking in talent in the upper minors, they have major holes on the big league roster. Sandy did his job and righted the ship. It's now time for someone who will be here long term with a more aggressive approach. Not making bad moves is great and all but winning franchises are proactive not reactive. This franchise is reactive. They make moves only when they have to. Last in waiver claims since Sandy got here and has to be near the bottom of the league in trades over that period as well. Things get stagnant. It happens. The Giants felt it was time to move on from a coach that won 2 Super Bowls. It's not an indictment of the man or his career. It's just time for a new voice. It happens.
And yes, you build an aging, injury prone team - you deserve to have that fall on your shoulders. The plan shifted left - and that changed everything...
I will say Collins needs to be replaced with a younger minded manager.
Until ownership changes, I believe this will be the ride we are on.
Collins is gone. But people will see the manager isn't the biggest issue here. The talent is a far bigger concern. Minor league system is now close to 100% barren so 1. Producing talent to fill in holes isn't going to happen 2. Pieces to trade for talent aren't going to be available to you.
Sandy flat out said yesterday they went over the budget Fred set. There was no "imaginary". The Mets payroll was 12th opening the season and that was "above" what Fred wanted to spend. Sandy flat out said it yesterday this isn't some made up thing.
"Injuries and poor play".... Harvey (major surgery), DeGrom (surgery), Matz (surgery), Walker (surgery), TDA (always hurt), David Wright (nuff said), Juan Lagares (always hurt), Zack Wheeler (nuff said) etc etc this idea these injuries were shocking is really ridiculous.
1. EVERYONE knew the Mets season hinged on health
2. EVERYONE noted the lack of depth should shit hit the fan.
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argument regarding the budget doesn't make any sense to me. WS and playoffs 2 years in a row. Injuries and poor play have been the thing that has derailed this team, not some imaginary budget that they didn't spend on all these available players. They didn't sign Murphy, that was a mistake, but also nobody saw his jump coming. Sandy has basically kept the same team intact - they all just got hurt.
Sandy flat out said yesterday they went over the budget Fred set. There was no "imaginary". The Mets payroll was 12th opening the season and that was "above" what Fred wanted to spend. Sandy flat out said it yesterday this isn't some made up thing.
Right I get that. But my point is, they made the WS and playoffs with what the Wilpons are willing to do. So...I just think that blaming the Wilpons doesn't really make sense in this case. They have basically the same team...everyone got fucking injured.
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argument regarding the budget doesn't make any sense to me. WS and playoffs 2 years in a row. Injuries and poor play have been the thing that has derailed this team, not some imaginary budget that they didn't spend on all these available players. They didn't sign Murphy, that was a mistake, but also nobody saw his jump coming. Sandy has basically kept the same team intact - they all just got hurt.
Sandy flat out said yesterday they went over the budget Fred set. There was no "imaginary". The Mets payroll was 12th opening the season and that was "above" what Fred wanted to spend. Sandy flat out said it yesterday this isn't some made up thing.
He basically said he over spent by 15 million with the hopes of a run and if it didn't happen he could sell off 12-15 million at the deadline.
That is why it was more important to get someone to eat contracts than getting back better prospects.
Same team? Matt Harvey might be finished, Zack Wheeler may or may not be an MLB SP, Matz? Wright? Walker is gone, Bruce is gone, Murphy is gone, Reed is gone, Grandy will be gone how is is the 2015 WS relevant? This isn't the same team that got there.
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and this is now?? It's basically the same team Dan. Everyone is injured. Prospects in the minors come and go. Sandy made trades this year to replenish the arms in the system. Does that not count for anything? Most of the very good prospects they had are on the roster now, are they not?
Same team? Matt Harvey might be finished, Zack Wheeler may or may not be an MLB SP, Matz? Wright? Walker is gone, Bruce is gone, Murphy is gone, Reed is gone, Grandy will be gone how is is the 2015 WS relevant? This isn't the same team that got there.
I meant at the beginning of this season, it was basically the same team.
1000%
It's like a NFL team. You can't have the QB, your best WR, and a few really good defenders get injured and expect to have any type of succcess. Would you blame the GM if that happened?
3. Andres Gimenez, SS
4. David Peterson, LHP
5. Justin Dunn, RHP
6. Ronny Mauricio, SS
7. Mark Vientos, SS
8. Chris Flexen, RHP
9. Thomas Szapucki, LHP (Will miss 2018)
10. Peter Alonso, 1B
that mix is not an accident.
and while no I don't blame Sandy for injuries, they cost Tom Coughlin his job, and I think they'll cost Sandy his (or should).
and TC should be a goner too.
Where is anybody disagreeing with that? Though I'm not ready to proclaim Smith a good piece. We will see but 1b has a very, very high threshold.
The "prospects" he added may or may not pan out but NONE were viewed as major gets. In fact milb.com currently ranks them #23, #29, #30 (the rest unranked) in the Mets system. He acknowledged the deals (at least in part) were to save money because they went over budget.
He held on too long with the hopes of a run and it came back to bit him.
Stop it with the thoroughly outplayed in the world series bullshit.
Familia blew game 1 and the bullpen blew two more games (helped my a Daniel Murphy error).
three of the 4 games the Mets lost they led in the 8th inning. That is not thoroughly outplayed by anyone's definition.
Agree with most of what you write, but this is bullshit.
and they hardly squeaked by into the WS. they beat a Dodgers team with Kershaw and Greinke in 5, but swept the mighty Cubs. That's hardly squeaking by.
that team was built for the post-season, and should have won the WS, the bullpen faltered.
Not trying to be jerky but what was "the best he could" with the pitching injuries? They didn't add SP's. What is this in reference to? Calling up Pill/Montero/Flexen? The rotation injuries sure helped kill the season but not really sure what "the best he could" was? They did absolutely nothing. Tommy Milone?
Obviously with some good health fortune guys like Harvey, Matz, & Wheeler could easily increase that foundation.
The issue is that you don't win by just adding up the individual stats of players. You need to build out a full team that cohesively plays a style that's better than other teams. That's where Sandy and Terry have both fallen short and a fresh perspective would be welcomed because there is no obvious way to do that. As Dan pointed out it will require the 1 trait Sandy has not shown much of - CREATIVITY.
ryan, like I said, there wasn't much that would have "saved" the season (nothing really would have) however these issues were not some sort of "shock". They came into the season with 2 pitchers without health concerns. Thor and Gsellman and didn't plan accordingly. The concern is this FO ignores waivers, ignores player for player trades (how many big league players has Sandy traded for during his entire tenure here?), ignores Rule 5 draft. They tried to trade for Brach in the off-season, were rebuffed and then settled for... Fernando Salas? A guy who was available until ST. Sandy deserves credit for what he has done but he's 70 in November and the game has moved in a different direction
Harvey, Wheeler, Wright, Matz? Every GM/fan in baseball could have seen those 4 coming. Duda (hurt every year), Cespedes missing time (every year), Lagares (every year), Walker coming off back surgery (luckily his injuries were not back related but was a health risk), the injuries were extreme but not unforeseen in the least.
That, ultimately, is what separates the teams in both reality and in public perception. It drives the men who run the Mets crazy that they are forever taking bullets that seem to never get aimed at the Yankees. But there’s a reason for that: even in a time when Steinbrenner has tried (and failed) to get under the luxury-tax threshold, and spoken openly about that, there is never a question about his commitment.
And if ever there would be, there are always the six magic words: “That’s always the mindset for us.”
The Mets may not still be enmeshed as deeply in their Madoff problems, but there is still a sense, honestly earned, that they would prefer savings to winnings. And this year has done nothing to change the way people look at the Mets.
Or the Yankees too, for that matter. Good for them. Not so good for the Mets.
The better franchises in this sport are often competitive for longer stretches and have smaller downtime. A massive percentage of the Mets' existence is "down years" - we get one good year for every 5-6 crappy ones.
Enough is e-fucking-nough.
The better franchises in this sport are often competitive for longer stretches and have smaller downtime. A massive percentage of the Mets' existence is "down years" - we get one good year for every 5-6 crappy ones.
Enough is e-fucking-nough.
1000% spot on. They never build for the long haul.
It appears that ownership takes a significant role in the baseball decisions, and they place unreasonable constraints on the GM.
What complicates the decision making process is that the ownership handles the Mets like a small market team. The budget is established by the ownership. It appears that the budget comes first and that winning is secondary. The Mets are always saying that they will spend more if the attendance increases. It appears that good teams spend the money to win and then the attendance increases.
Look at what the Dodgers have done. They have the highest payroll, and they have the most misses in free agency, but the misses have not deterred them from spending money to win. Not only do they spend money at the Major League level, but they also outspend the other teams in scouting and in the minors.
It appears that ownership takes a significant role in the baseball decisions, and they place unreasonable constraints on the GM.
What complicates the decision making process is that the ownership handles the Mets like a small market team. The budget is established by the ownership. It appears that the budget comes first and that winning is secondary. The Mets are always saying that they will spend more if the attendance increases. It appears that good teams spend the money to win and then the attendance increases.
Look at what the Dodgers have done. They have the highest payroll, and they have the most misses in free agency, but the misses have not deterred them from spending money to win. Not only do they spend money at the Major League level, but they also outspend the other teams in scouting and in the minors.
Good points. But consider that budgets also restrict minor-league development & talent acquisition. The Mets might need more scouts. Their pay scale for administrative staffs could be subpar. Those staffs might be threadbare. Sandy operated under attrition model strategies before . He had pretty much the same deal of success that he's had with the Mets.
The rotation didn't stay healthy. However it's not a legitimate gripe to say "he should have seen it coming ." I have a friend who was let go by Jocketty , when he was running the Cardinals. Jock told him that too many of the pitchers he gave high grades to ended up having surgeries. Jock said something like 15%. ( This was back a ways) My friend's response ; "15%? That's probably a good percentage these days. Advanced diagnostic capabilities = more shut downs and surgeries. Guys throw too hard now. Starters try to hump up on every pitch instead of saving 5-6 of those for the whole game. They are pitching like the one-inning wonders in the Pen, going for the K9 instead of letting the defense help them get hitters out.
This isn't my team so it's just an observation from an objective fan. Collins has been terrible this season. He's played to a short hand . That will get to you as Baltimore and Toronto are finding out. But he's in over his head. He seems very tired .
I think Sandy will be back. The pitching staff is better than the results indicate. This is a sloppy, lazy team running the bases. Field management and coaching are definitely an issue that must be addressed .
It appears that ownership takes a significant role in the baseball decisions, and they place unreasonable constraints on the GM.
What complicates the decision making process is that the ownership handles the Mets like a small market team. The budget is established by the ownership. It appears that the budget comes first and that winning is secondary. The Mets are always saying that they will spend more if the attendance increases. It appears that good teams spend the money to win and then the attendance increases.
Look at what the Dodgers have done. They have the highest payroll, and they have the most misses in free agency, but the misses have not deterred them from spending money to win. Not only do they spend money at the Major League level, but they also outspend the other teams in scouting and in the minors.
This is one of my biggest issues with the approach.
It's ass-backwards.
You don't tell your fans "hey, come to the park and buy stuff and then we'll reward you by spending that money on building a better team"
You spend the money on the team first, put a winner on the field, and THEN the fans show up and create profit.
It drives me fucking crazy that they think it should work the other way around. They don't deserve that type of loyalty from us.
Put a good baseball team on the field for more than 1 year at a time, and we'll all be at the park. There is no shortage of Mets fans - the park is crazy when the team is good. There was so much buzz down the stretch in 2015... the series against WSH when things really started to kick into high gear was amazing. The energy in the park was palpable on TV.
I don't understand how ownership can't identify that and understand that if they spent to build a more sustainable winner, fans will come in droves.